Are Controllers too similar to Dominators?

[MuMuGuy]

Hi all, I'm a CoH/CoV newbie. I just upgraded to a full account, and I fell in love with my Dominator because I love crowd control. I know that Controllers are the CC experts Hero-side, but I'm not sure if playing a Controller would be too much like playing my Dominator.

Would I be find rolling a Controller or should I try a different AT that has some CC aspects? Thanks

[UberGuy]

They don't really play alike at all, IMO. Not, at least, if you play to their strengths. Domination on the one side and having buff/debuff sets on the other mean the two feel very different.

Controllers and Dominators are the only two ATs that specialize in crowd control, so I think they're what you want to focus on.

[boardthug]

You phrased this wrong, by the way. I fixed it for you.

[YuriFoxfirega]

Controllers:
-Survive solo by doing Containment (stacking mezzes)
-Have a Support secondary that adds limited direct offense, but can add considerable defense
-Can rely heavily on pets at end-game for damage support
-Are not uncommon to find with Damage/Recharge slotted in their Controls.

Dominators:
-Have an entire secondary to kicking your face in, and use that primarily for damage in most cases
-Tend to slot their controls for Mez Duration, Recharge, and End over Damage; Some can be used for damage instead, depending (see your local Dominator expert)
-Tend to slot and use their pets for added utility over damage
-Use Power Pools and Patron Pools for additional defense, while at the same time using their Controls for primarily defensive purposes

Your mileage may, and most likely will vary. But these are some fairly important things to keep in mind. They tend to lead to drastically different playstyles in some cases, especially if you're trying to optimize your efficiency.

EDIT: Corrected a false statement. :( My bad.

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all, I'm a CoH/CoV newbie. I just upgraded to a full account, and I fell in love with my Dominator because I love crowd control. I know that Controllers are the CC experts Hero-side, but I'm not sure if playing a Controller would be too much like playing my Dominator.

Would I be find rolling a Controller or should I try a different AT that has some CC aspects? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of gameplay, Dominator is closer to Blaster than to Troller.

[Clave_Dark_5]

A good rule of thumb to keep in mind is that although villain AT X may be like hero AT X, they always play very differently. Always. Best advice I can offer is to check out the guides in each AT's section here on the boards, there is usually one or two about "How to play your new AT" with some helpful generalized advice no matter what build you go with.

Good luck on your Dom. :)

[Umbral]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi all, I'm a CoH/CoV newbie. I just upgraded to a full account, and I fell in love with my Dominator because I love crowd control. I know that Controllers are the CC experts Hero-side, but I'm not sure if playing a Controller would be too much like playing my Dominator.

Would I be find rolling a Controller or should I try a different AT that has some CC aspects? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of gameplay, Dominator is closer to Blaster than to Troller.

[/ QUOTE ]

This. Don't look at primary for parity. Look at total functionality. Blasters are damage with a healthy dose of control. Dominators are control with a healthy dose of damage. Controllers are control with a healthy dose of support. Dominators add mez and damage to a team. Blasters add damage and mez to a team. Controllers are mez with a healthy dose of support.

Dominators = Blasters
Controllers != Dominators

Plus, Controllers came first. If anything, Dominators are similar to Controllers (though they're not).

[MunkiLord]

[ QUOTE ]
Controllers:
-Have a Support secondary that adds no offense, but can add considerable defense

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Power like radiation infection and fulcrum shift(just to name a few) add tons of offense.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers:
-Have a Support secondary that adds no offense, but can add considerable defense

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Power like radiation infection and fulcrum shift(just to name a few) add tons of offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oop. My bad for adding that absolute in there. :( You, sir, are technically correct, and that's the best kind of correct possible.

[Traegus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Controllers:
-Have a Support secondary that adds no offense, but can add considerable defense

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. Power like radiation infection and fulcrum shift(just to name a few) add tons of offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if we are being technical, those two don't add offense, they add effect to offense, but by themselves add nothing.

semantics, i know, but it seemed like the game you wanted to play. :p

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]

Controllers and Dominators are the only two ATs that specialize in crowd control

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers and Masterminds would like to have a word with you.

[Aura_Familia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Controllers and Dominators are the only two ATs that specialize in crowd control

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers and Masterminds would like to have a word with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

hehehhe. :D

[YuriFoxfirega]

>_> I don't technically call what my Bot/Storm does 'crowd control'.

Unless we strictly mean that they're not doing damage to the rest of the group, in which case, I suppose it is. Throwing mobs all over the place with impunity's not exactly something I'd call 'controlled'! ;3

[Oathbound]

(QR)

I would list Tankers/MMs more as Agro control, than Crowd Control(which is typically used to reference Mez effects).

That's not to say that my /Ice tanker doesn't have a nice group of control powers he can use, but that's not his (AT) specialty.

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
>_> I don't technically call what my Bot/Storm does 'crowd control'.

Unless we strictly mean that they're not doing damage to the rest of the group, in which case, I suppose it is. Throwing mobs all over the place with impunity's not exactly something I'd call 'controlled'! ;3

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it is. Control via chaos.

[MuMuGuy]

It sounds like I'd be happiest with a Blaster since they can wreck people and drop some CC. Thanks for the help

[dugfromthearth]

yeah with dom fixes in I15 and going rogue there should be a very nice scale of
blaster = high dmg, low control
dominator = medium dmg, medium control
controller = low dmg, high control (including buffs/debuffs)

[SablePhoenix]

Blasters do not, in fact, contribute mez or crowd control. An ice or psi blaster will have a little, but almost all blasters have only an immobilize power. Their secondaries are focused on damage, the same as their primaries. The difference is that the secondaries are more about melee damage than ranged.

If you're equating "CC" with "survivability", you [u]will[u] be disappointed with a blaster.

Also, Dominators are not medium control; their control is functionally the same as the Controller's, with the main difference being a reduction in duration. Once Domination fires off, though, their control is superior to anything in the game.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
Blasters do not, in fact, contribute mez or crowd control. An ice or psi blaster will have a little, but almost all blasters have only an immobilize power. Their secondaries are focused on damage, the same as their primaries. The difference is that the secondaries are more about melee damage than ranged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Defeat is the ultimate control. :eek:

But, that's also not including secondaries like, say, Devices and Ice Manipulation (that have a lot of control potential as mitigation). Or Mental Manipulation (Confuse/Fear) and Electric Manipulation (End-Drain [A very potent soft control if you're built for it]/Disorients/Knockback [Another soft control]).

That leaves us with Fire and Energy that don't... Oh. My mistake. It would appear that Energy's built on Knockback/Disorients on a random effect (barring Stun and I do believe Total Focus got moved to a guarantee of Disorient, didn't it?), whereas Fire has Afraid (in both Burn and Hot Feet).

It's not much, but that would technically meet the qualifications of 'low' control in just the secondaries.

And then there's primaries like Ice (2 holds) and Sonic (Area Sleep), and to a lesser extent Psychic Blast (ST Disorient), Assault Rifle (ST Disorient), and Electric Blast (Hold, End-Drain).

:3c

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blasters do not, in fact, contribute mez or crowd control. An ice or psi blaster will have a little, but almost all blasters have only an immobilize power. Their secondaries are focused on damage, the same as their primaries. The difference is that the secondaries are more about melee damage than ranged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Defeat is the ultimate control. :eek:

But, that's also not including secondaries like, say, Devices and Ice Manipulation (that have a lot of control potential as mitigation). Or Mental Manipulation (Confuse/Fear) and Electric Manipulation (End-Drain [A very potent soft control if you're built for it]/Disorients/Knockback [Another soft control]).

That leaves us with Fire and Energy that don't... Oh. My mistake. It would appear that Energy's built on Knockback/Disorients on a random effect (barring Stun and I do believe Total Focus got moved to a guarantee of Disorient, didn't it?), whereas Fire has Afraid (in both Burn and Hot Feet).

It's not much, but that would technically meet the qualifications of 'low' control in just the secondaries.

And then there's primaries like Ice (2 holds) and Sonic (Area Sleep), and to a lesser extent Psychic Blast (ST Disorient), Assault Rifle (ST Disorient), and Electric Blast (Hold, End-Drain).

:3c

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't reliably control a boss, you cannot rely on it to enhance your survivability. If you cannot reliably control multiple targets at once, you cannot rely on it to enhance your survivability. Other than ice blasters, which are fairly adept at handling bosses, and psi blasters, which can handle crowds in some situations, no blaster has the ability to do these things. Their survivability remains the lowest of any AT.

My point is that expecting blasters to be adept at crowd control as a secondary role is setting yourself up for disappointment. If you want control paired with damage, go with a Dominator.

[YuriFoxfirega]

I suppose I could have formatted that in a slightly more accurate representation of what's possible - however, I still contest that 'low' control in this instance remains a factual comment to make about Blasters, as nowhere does the title of 'low' control in any way, shape, or form state that the AT is set up to even hope to replace a Dominator or a Controller for that particular function - indeed, that would entirely be the point of stating that both are respectively Medium and High control, being that much better at the job then any Blaster could hope to be.

In that same vein, neither could a Controller or Dominator seriously hope to compete in a damage-based environment with the Blaster, and shouldn't really seek to replace one (with a sole exception being made to the Dominator - once their buff goes live, they'll have as much a shot at that particular role as Kheldians, Stalkers, and SoAs; Scrappers remain the only real competition for damage for Blasters, and even that's not a perfect replacement) specifically for the purposes of damage. There are far better people to recruit for damage.

However, consider the following: Sonic/Devices can stop some fights from starting at an inopportune time, by throwing down both Smoke Grenade and Sirens Song - sleeping one mob and forcing another (or the same mob, even) to stop noticing things outside of a specific distance. It also contains two Mag-3 Disorients that, when stacked, take a boss out of the equation in two shots (and 2.5s). Or even two Lieutenants, or minions, as preferred.

Ice/Ice is by far the king of Blaster control - we're not even gonna talk about that one, it's a given.

A properly set up and lucky Energy/Energy Blaster can and will have things flopping around at least half as effectively as an Earth/Storm controller, while still removing targets. The only thing it's lacking there is more then one proper hard-control (it does get Stun), instead being pretty much a one-trick pony. But they don't have a reputation for being KB-fiends without reason.

Even a Fire/Fire blaster has some area control potential, in keeping things both massively slowed (Hot Feet/Rain of Fire) and more interested in running out of the AoE effects (Burn/Hot Feet/Rain of Fire) and still managing to inflict severe damage.

Electric/Electric (or even Electric/Energy) can, in two shots, reduce an entire spawn's Endurance to 0 and keep them there, significantly reducing their threat in the process. And when all else fails, they can just hold a boss (it does get 2 holds) in about 3.17 seconds, barring lag and positioning. Or, again, 2 other threats in the spawn.

Psi/Mental also has a lot of mez potential, but a lot of that is luck based, and the only real 'hard' mezzes are Scramble Thoughts, World of Confusion, and Scare. Not a lot, but it's there, and further factoring in the Chance Fors and Knockbacks can stack up fast.

Assault Rifle/Devices (or Archery/Devices)? Two disorients (2.67s and 2.83s respectively), plus all of the other goodies (knockbacks and Afraid for Assault Rifle; Archery actually does suck for mitigation/control potential) in Devices.

And those are just the vanilla thematic choices, without factoring in APPs into the equation (because if you have to do that, you've lost the evaluation to frivolity anyway). Mixing and matching can produce some very significant synergistic results to the game. How many blasters would it take to replace a Controller, though? Or even a Dominator? I'd say 2-3, with skill in removing threats in such a fashion.

That, I feel, quantifies 'low control'.

EDIT: Also worth pointing out that a Controller cannot reliably control a boss quickly in most cases. It takes 2 holds or a Critical hold (the latter of which isn't reliable), or a mag 4 or higher mez effect (of which immobilize is the only form that most Controllers have at that magnitude - and that boss is still a threat). That's both cast and recharge time of the hold - the ten ton elephant here is Mind Control, that has a Mag4 sleep as a Tier 1 power, with a long duration. Dominators are really the only AT with a control focus that can reliably hold a boss - and only within Domination (which actually is reliable - about as much as Hasten is, or more accurately, Rage for SS Tankers). Most blasters can at least neutralize a boss quickly (through a two powers, that as stated, they get a lot of - Disorient stops a target from attacking, period, and only allows them to move around for the duration. Threat neutralized).

[Miyabi]

[ QUOTE ]
'crowd control'

[/ QUOTE ]

Bats/Tarps called. He said to look up his brochure on an awesome vacation in Taihiti, via Team Teleport. Something about great rates and bonus points.

[WhyNot]

If your Dominator WASN'T Plant/*, I'd actually recommend trying a Plant/* Controller as you owe it to yourself to try the powerset. :)

If going with the above, Plant/Storm will probably feel very similarly fun to the fun of a Dominator. But, as others have mentioned, Controllers don't really play very similarly to Dominators since they don't have an "attack" set the way Dominators do. Like the other folks have, I'd more strongly recommend an Ice/Mental Blaster (or Ice/Ice, a close second). That gives a mix of offense and control that's tilted much more toward offense.

[NarfMann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Controllers and Dominators are the only two ATs that specialize in crowd control

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers and Masterminds would like to have a word with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

As well as the occasional Brute, Defender, Scrapper, Corruptor, and Blaster.

[Azucar_NA]

I disagree with the previous posts. Controllers can definitely play like dominators. Only specific sets though. Earth/ice controllers will not be dominators, but mind/grav/fire/illusion surely can. Every controller can be a dominator once they get to APPs and vet powers though. I have 2 level 50 dominators (ice/psi & plant/thorn) and many more below that and 1 post 30 controller and many mid-20s. I love both ATs, the only other AT I can get into as much is MMs (have a few 50 of those).

[Captain_Freak]

Doms play like low damage blasters/blapper

Controllers play by usuing either strength of locking down a spawn(s) or in AV cases relying on thier secondary, which Doms get the double shaft of PTOD and sometimes insanely high RES

So yes they are exactly the same.

[Jade_Dragon]

In short, you can build a Controller to have much the same capabilities of a Dominator, but you have to make some specific power choices to do that. The same goes for Blasters, although not to the same extent. Still, the Dominator is the specialist, it has a very specific playstyle. The Controller and Blaster are generic, on the average they have a great deal more flexibility and more choices in how they can be designed and played. They can come close to a Dominator, but never quite match it.

The best way to make a Controller like a Dominator is to take a lot of melee attacks from the Pool, and then once you hit 41 take ranged attacks from your Epic. That will give you the mix of melee and ranged that define Dominators. If you're style is to close to melee a lot on your Dom, the strategy should be familiar to you, a lot of Controllers call it "Scraptrollering".

You will definately want /Kin or /Rad as your Secondary, so you can boost the damage of your attacks, but Containment should do 90% of getting your damage to Dominator levels. You'll never do quite as much damage with only Power Pool attacks, but you'll also be debuffing your foes' damage or to hit, and healing yourself, which will make you much more resiliant than a Dom. You won't be able to take your full Secondary if you concentrate a lot on Pool attacks, but since Rad and Kin both boost both offense and defense with the same powers, it should be obvious which ones will be the priorities. Do pick up a couple of team support powers so your allies don't complain, though. :)

The Blaster, as mentioned, will do more damage, but will have less AoE control, and will be just as fragile defensively. I'll just repeat what was said above, which is that you want either /Energy, /Ice, or /Psi for your secondary. You also want to close into melee and use the "Blapper" strategy, not just because that's closest to what the Dom does, but also because you need to close to melee to use your single target holds/stuns.

While /Devices does have some fine controls (mainly stealth, although most people don't consider that control) I don't think it actually matches the Dom style because it has no melee attacks. Instead you have your mines you can plant to lure your foes into. It's not really a Dom-like strategy, although it is just as effective in its own right.