Misuse of the word "Healer"

[Master_Armantus]

We've all seen the broadcasts: lvl XX healer lft. I used to think people were referring strictly to empaths, but apparently storm summoners can pass themselves as "healers" as well, with their amazing healing set consisting of a whopping 1 single target heal. Maybe it's just me, but this is just more than a tad bit misleading. If this is the case, then any blaster who happens to pick up the ally heal from the Medicine power pool can pass themselves off as "healers" as well.

[Rigel_Kent]

If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[Virtual_Fighter]

I broadcast my Regen Scrapper as a healer...

I don't see the problem.

[BBhumeBB]

Stock answer #1: There are no healers in CoX.
Stock answer #2: You don't need a healer in any case.

Question of my own: What do you consider a healer? WHat powers does an AT have to take? Are you limiting it to empathy defenders, or can, say, kinetics play too?

[Master_Armantus]

I personally don't classify anyone by anything except archetype when I look at broadcasts. I've been on too many teams lately where the leader picks up a "healer" and the team falls apart because everyone thought this player rolled an empath.

Usually when I'm leading my own teams I skip over the "healer" broadcasts because anymore it doesn't tell me anything. If that same person was to say "lvl XX archetype" they stand a much better chance of getting picked up because it narrows down what you can expect from them. As Virtual_Gamer pointed out, a "healer" could even refer to a scrapper. Again, very misleading.

[Doctor_Grass]

pfft who needs heals anyways, its the buffs/debuffs that make support toons viable.

every single character in the game has a ressurrection power, its called "Hospital", and if ppl actually have to use it their doing something entirely wrong.

[MunkiLord]

I've been a healer before on my stormie that didn't take O2 Boost. I'm not exactly sure why I was the healer, that's just what hte "leader" said.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

this pretty much sums it up.

[Roderick]

OMG HE SAID HEALER KILL HIM!!!

*Gets out torch and pitchfork*

Yeah... I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said...

[SStingray]

You have near-missed a hot topic that defenders have been wrestling with for nearly 5 years now.

Healing is an important part of what defenders can do. I honestly find it hard enough to play well without healing that I've chosen to be a radiation, dark, or storm defender (corrupter, or mastermind) on most of the heroes (or villains) I've rolled up and seriously played.

However, healing alone does not work the miracles that defenders are known for. So I don't even try to advertise myself as a "healer." Even though a lot of defenders only have the one heal in their set, their real value is in keeping their teammates from harm to begin with.

An empath with all their healing skills available isn't going to be able to save a blaster that managed to pull something away from the tank, unless you count "resurrect" as a save. A storm summoner can and will save the blaster with a well timed hurricane. A force-fielder, thermal, ice, or sonic would probably have the loose-cannon blaster bubbled enough so the blaster can tank, and therefore likely already "saved" the blaster in advance. Even O2 is more than enough if the defender is built around their primary powerset. For that matter, Aid Other works wonders on a forcefielder, cold domination, or sonic defender.

But the real kicker here is that people still don't seem to realize this. If teams don't get it in their head that there is more to defending than just healing, then other defenders have to fudge their team advertisements just to stand a chance to get one. The hope is that at least when these teams start seeing what a "real" defender can do, they then start looking for proper defenders instead of mere healers, or possibly even invite the defender back another day.

Personally, I don't like it either. So my universal response to "R U healor?" is simply not to give one. I would prefer to go solo rather than try to be the one and only team healer to a team of berserkers with no concept of tactics. But I certainly do know where that frustration is coming from.

[Boomie]

[ QUOTE ]
Stock answer #1: There are no healers in CoX.
Stock answer #2: You don't need a healer in any case.

Question of my own: What do you consider a healer? WHat powers does an AT have to take? Are you limiting it to empathy defenders, or can, say, kinetics play too?

[/ QUOTE ]
This.

There isn't a healer AT in this game and I hope there never is one.

[boardthug]

The most common misuse of the word "healer" can be found in the statement so often repeated in team chat: "We need a healer."

[RaikenX]

wow...this again...lol.

i'll echo the statements mentioned earlier....there aren't healers in the game...blah blah blah...

To the credit of many of the players of CoX...they're learning that "healers" are NOT a requirement around here. Helpful as the are, can't deny it, they're far from the end-all/be-all here. My favorite defender i ever played was a Trick Arrow/Archery defender. No heals what-so-ever.

Pretty much the only time he really ever got an invite outside of his normal team was during the double xp weekends. He did manage to squeeze into a team a few times outside of those times...and usually because someone thought i was a "healor". when they found out i was TA/A...if i didn't get kicked from the team immediatly...the team at least initally thought "omg...trick arrow? SUCKAGE!!!". At least until they found themselves wiping the floor with stuff cuz i was debuffing the crap outta the badguys. They usually changed their tune soon after. Then i was getting stuff like "holy crap! that was awesome!" and "trick arrow rocks!" ...and so on.

My personal fav defenders are sonics and FF'ers. Kins are sweet for the obvious reasons, too. darkies are awesome debuffers with the added splash of heals. Same goes for Radiation. but i'll also take a well built empath...backed by a player than actually KNOWS how to play it! Well built and well played are often 2 different things.

And for the record...for anyone that thinks otherwise that might read this...TURNING HEALING AURA ON AUTO FIRE DOES NOT A GOOD EMPATH MAKE!!

"Rocking the Aura" full time does nothing but ANNOY THE PISS OUTTA ME! Unless crap is hitting the fan THAT BADLY...click it only when it's needed. Try using the rest of the set too!

[Red Valkyrja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stock answer #1: There are no healers in CoX.
Stock answer #2: You don't need a healer in any case.

Question of my own: What do you consider a healer? WHat powers does an AT have to take? Are you limiting it to empathy defenders, or can, say, kinetics play too?

[/ QUOTE ]
This.

There isn't a healer AT in this game and I hope there never is one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[Biostem]

There are times, even when you have great buffs/debuffs/controls, that you just need someone who is good at restoring HP or increasing the other players' regen rate. These are the things I look for in a "healer". Even if they only have 1 power, as long as they have it slotted out and can use it often enough and at the times it's needed, it'll suffice.

That in no way means that "healorz" are the end-all be-all of CoH. It just means that even w/ all your FF, Sonic, and other buffers out there, you're gonna get hit and sometimes respites aren't enough...

[boardthug]

Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[Biostem]

[ QUOTE ]
Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

[boardthug]

You're even wrong on the task forces. They've been done with no defenders or controllers at all; quite clearly that would mean no FF, but it also means none of the other healing sets, OR buff/debuff sets.

[Smurphy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually yes, yes you can run those with FF alone.

Tell that to Cerulean Watchman while he solos another level 54 Rikti Pack. The Tanks usually ask him to take Lord Recluses aggro in the STF :)

Cerulean Watchman (http://www.chriffer.com/node/42)

[Biostem]

Anyone have a video of a team w/ no defenders or controllers running and successfully winning a STF? Oh, and extensive use of temp powers, aid other, etc, invalidate that as "your team" isn't really winning, then...

I just don't buy that you never need any kind of heal whatsoever, apart from respites, for some of the hardest content in the game. I've been on teams w/ an ideal makeup, (like a kin, stone tank, rads), that didn't succeed, so you'll have to prove to me that you don't need them.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have a video of a team w/ no defenders or controllers running and successfully winning a STF? Oh, and extensive use of temp powers, aid other, etc, invalidate that as "your team" isn't really winning, then...

I just don't buy that you never need any kind of heal whatsoever, apart from respites, for some of the hardest content in the game. I've been on teams w/ an ideal makeup, (like a kin, stone tank, rads), that didn't succeed, so you'll have to prove to me that you don't need them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an example of moving the goalposts? i can't tell.

Having heals on a team, if you include power pools and self heals, is hard to avoid. i do recall a team of either all Blasters or Kheldians completed the STF, but they almost certainly had some Medicine on hand. (i think it was Blasters.)

It may be possible to complete the STF with no heals of any kind, but that sort of a team makeup is such an unusual edge case that it's unlikely to ever happen without creating a team specifically to do it. Still, i'd be willing to volunteer for it if anyone wants to try.

Still, for over 99% of the content it's not necessary to have any sort of power that heals others. i once completed the Numina TF on a team that was nothing but Blasters, Scrappers and my Earth/TA Controller. i forget if we had 5 or 6 people at the end, but Jurassik wasn't all that hard to defeat. (Admittedly i did have the Call of the Sandman proc in PGA, but it's only there so that i do in fact have a healing arrow.)

[XFUNK]

The healers in this game are empath, pain dom, and thermal. Sure those sets can do things besides heal, and other sets can do the same thing, but when i'm looking to run a high end team, and would like healing, that's what i'm going to take with me, and i'm calling them a healer.

[LostHalo]

[ QUOTE ]
That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG. Have done it, multiple times. Our main Bubbler doesn't do any of that fruity 'aid other' crap, either.

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG, again.

[Besserwisser]

Healing is highly overrated by half the game and highly overrated by the other. The thing is that unless the ones taking the damage has self-heals or extreme regeneration, healing will help you more than anything. But if they do have that, healing is mostly useless and buffs would help you more than anything. There's two parts of survivability, mitigation (defense, resistance, crowd control) and recovery (healing and regeneration). The more you have of one, the better the other gets.

A team with a good willpower/fire/dark tanker and a FF will never miss a healer, I promise you that. The same cannot be said if the Tanker is SD/Ice/Invuln, who wouldn't even be helped by the FF.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Mitigation is mitigation. Healing is one, albiet powerful and direct, form.

I run a /FF MM. I have successfully held up a team on many occasions. Why worry about healing or reducing damage when you can flat-out prevent the damage?

Pick your flavor, it doesn't matter which, because in the end the results are the same...You're alive and the Mobs aren't.

EDIT:

My main is a /Storm Corruptor. I am not a healer, something people find strange and alien, because I found O2 Boost to be a waste of a slot. Rather, I am a sapper/summoner/debuffer/agent-of-chaos, and it works just fine.

[Acyl]

(QR) Well, as mentioned, a lot of players have a traditional Tank/Heal/DPS mindset - I actually saw a team leader advertise in broadcast like that yesterday:- level 25 team LFM NEED TANK/DPS/HEAL! - yes, with the caps.

I was on an appropriate level tank at the time, and free. But I didn't respond because I was too busy facepalming. My fears were confirmed a few minutes later, when the broadcast message changed to 'level 25 team LFM need HEALER HEALER HEALER'. Yes, he said it thrice. Maybe he wanted three healers. God only knows.

That said, a lot of folks use 'healer' as a catch-all. Folks don't always expect you to heal as such, just do...whatever magical support-type stuff it is that you do. It's just imprecise language, sometimes. Players want something to prop 'em up, it's easier to say they need a 'healer' than anything else.

I play a kin, dark, rad and emp. I used to join teams that requested 'healers' in broadcast, or sent me tells asking if I was one.

Most of the time it really didn't matter what they called me or what they thought I was doing...so long as folks stayed upright, everyone was happy.

But...I have had a few terrible experiences with folks who expected healing healing, and can't understand that a Kinetics user has trouble throwing a Transfusion when you're waaaaaay over there, or that a Dark can't rez with no enemies in range. That sorta thing.

Note, I say can't. That's not the same as don't. If a player's new, or isn't familiar with the powerset, that's fine. I usually take the time to explain - as briefly as I can - how my powers work. But if I tell you that I need an enemy nearby to heal you or that my heal needs a to-hit check...and you continue to insist that your death is my fault, then, well, enh.

This is why I no longer join teams that use the phrase 'healer'. If they mention the word while recruiting, I stay far away. I mean, intellectually I know it probably won't be a big deal, but when that word's in play, there's a chance I'm gonna have to deal with funky expectations. Or be made the scapegoat if the team goes wahoonie-shaped. So I don't join. It's not worth the potential headache.

Many CoH players are way too sensitive about the 'healer' label. It's not that big a deal. But that said... if you've been on the wrong end of it a few times, it's still darn annoying.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I ran a STF with just a Son on my WP tanker...

yep, no heals.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

[ QUOTE ]
But...I have had a few terrible experiences with folks who expected healing healing, and can't understand that a Kinetics user has trouble throwing a Transfusion when you're waaaaaay over there, or that a Dark can't rez with no enemies in range. That sorta thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly it is your fault for not having infinite range.

I know your pain. I've had the "OMG, why didn't yoo buff meh!?" from people halfway across the bloody map. Or when I stand in the middle of everything with my clearly visable giant bubble, and some moron blames me for coving the team instead of them exclusively.

[Dispari]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno what kind of players you hang out with, but I always try to saturate the team with VEATs. Once we have about 3, the rest of the team has soft-capped DEF all the time and it doesn't matter who else we invite. In environments like that, Tanks and Brutes have enough HP + (RES/regen/misc mitigation) that they don't need outside sources to heal them. With everyone getting hit the minimum amount of time, it can go pretty smooth.

You underestimate what +DEF can do. Teams with enough forcefield or VEATs keeping everyone over the cap are quite strong. Add in +RES buffs and enemy debuffs and you can cruise right over content. I've done both LGTFs and ITFs without any heals. With the right buffs and good tanks, LRSF would be doable too. WP with soft capped DEF = monsterous.

I've personally done Snake farms fighting exclusively mobs of 17 +2 bosses at a time spamming toxic damage with my Brute with only FF to back me up, and done fine. And that was just on a Shield character, so all I had to fall back on was some bonus HP and modest RES with a few regen buffs.

1000 incoming DPS cut down to 8% due to high level foes hitting through high defense is just 80 DPS. Cut that in half from 50% RES or so, reduce it a bit from enemy debuffs, or throw that damage on a tank. Why do you need healing now?

[Virtual_Fighter]

[ QUOTE ]
Healing is highly overrated by half the game and highly overrated by the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's quite a 50% spl...wait a second!

[Call Me Awesome]

[ QUOTE ]
Healing is highly overrated by half the game and highly overrated by the other. The thing is that unless the ones taking the damage has self-heals or extreme regeneration, healing will help you more than anything. But if they do have that, healing is mostly useless and buffs would help you more than anything. There's two parts of survivability, mitigation (defense, resistance, crowd control) and recovery (healing and regeneration). The more you have of one, the better the other gets.

A team with a good willpower/fire/dark tanker and a FF will never miss a healer, I promise you that. The same cannot be said if the Tanker is SD/Ice/Invuln, who wouldn't even be helped by the FF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually when I'm playing my Inv/Stone tanker I really could care less about heals for myself; if I start getting more damage than my def and res can handle, which doesn't happen very often even on a STF, then Dull Pain is available. Lord Recluse buffed by his towers is the only thing I've run across where that wasn't enough; and for that situation I simply fall back on my Insp. tray. The last two STF's I've tanked have had no ranged heals available... which is perfectly ok, I've things under control out of my own resources.

When I'm tanking with my Invuln what I look for in a team is:
First, debuffs. Gobs and gobs of debuffs! We can never have too much.
Second, damage, preferably AOE damage and lots of it.
Third, buffs like AM, SB, FF/Sonic and the like
Heals as such don't really enter into the picture although by getting the debuffs and buffs we'll probably have some form of it available. If I'm doing my job then the team shouldn't need heals unless someone does something stupid.

[SStingray]

[ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

I'll let you in on a secret, then. Even though I find it hard to really get by without some form of healing, I have never actually bothered to slot Radiation Infection, or O2 beyond the default 1 it comes with. The reason I have healing at all is because of a little mechanic in the game called "the Streakbreaker."

For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible unless you combine a resistant tank (Stone Armor or Invulnerability, probably) with a resistance defender (Sonic). 75% resistant is about the cap that anyone else can get to. Defense can get better depending on who you are picking on. Most even level critters have about a 50% chance of hitting, so with about 20% defense coming out of Deflection shield, 15% defense coming out of Dispersion Bubble, and 5% from your choice of maneuvers, combat jumping, hover, or weave, then most even level NPCs have about a 90% chance of actually missing you and your teammates. But the catch here is that enemies at higher levels get bonuses to their to-hit (and give penalties to your to-hit) for each level they are higher than you. If the idiot in charge has his difficulty set on "invincible," than even the minions start showing a 60-65% to-hit chance and the purple bosses are as accurate as players, at 75% chance to hit. Damage mitigation from defense goes down to about 65% at worst. Still, it is considerably better than nothing.

One thing I have never seen in any build posted ever is the Rest power 3-slotted for recharge. For that matter, most people take Health on their way to Stamina, but how many people actually 3-slot it for healing? Seriously, any kind of healing power, even if it has never been slotted, is incredibly helpful in shortening the downtime between battles and keeping things running smoothly. Mostly because the tankers and blasters to seldom think about it in their power picks and slotting strategies.

So yes, healing is important. It just isn't as all-important as people make it out to be. City of Heroes is a game where an ounce of prevention really is (at least supposed to be) worth a pound of cure.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming all teams recruit based on a solid knowledge of this game's mechanics. On the contrary, it's believed that many teams recruit based on other game's mechanics. It's also believed that some people never really learn how to play this game, continuing to play it like it's some other MMORPG. Short version: healing is important in other MMORPGs, but is it here? -- we can't tell just from the actions of newbies and perma-newbies.

[ QUOTE ]
For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible...

[/ QUOTE ]
You included defense buffs and resistance buffs, but you forgot to account for debuffs and controls. Recharge debuffs, tohit debuffs, and hard and soft mezzes can get complete mitigation (enough to turn base regen into immortality) with no buffs or tanks at all.

[Dispari]

[ QUOTE ]
For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it is. Streakbreaker (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics) isn't just random, it has a system. If you have 95% hit rate on something you can't miss more than once. But if you have 5% hit rate on something, you'd have to miss literally a hundred times before streakbreaker picks up and forces a hit -- at which point they're actually doing BETTER than 95% mitigation because 95% would mean every 20 attacks lands.

Streakbreaker only interferes in really abnormal situations, like when you have 95% hit rate on something but dice hate you and you'd miss 3 times in a row. Normally that kind of stuff is really obnoxious and annoying. Thus, streakbreaker.

[YuriFoxfirega]

Every heal is sacred~,
Every heal is great~,
And if a heal is wasted~,
Team leader gets quite irate!

...This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread in question, but somehow, it felt necessary. As to my personal opinion on the matter: I'll take a good defender over a mediocre healer any day of the week, because I can at least count on the former to have my back far more often then the latter.

[eryq2]

I team with 3 other people regularly. None of us are "healers". Atm, we have 2 def, 1 troller(me), and 1 blaster. We are running +3's and haven't died yet. Currently levels 12-15.

Heals are nice to have on a team, yes. But needed? No.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

this pretty much sums it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

this pretty much sums it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Empaths do far less healing than buffing. At least that's been my experience when teaming with good Empaths. i've been on teams with mediocre to bad Empaths that quit because the buffs and debuffs from other team members made healing largely unneeded beyond patching up minor damage. Many of them had taken the Medicine pool in place of non-healing powers like Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost and Clear Mind. Others has some of those powers but would only use them after repeated requests.

i've also teamed with good Empaths who would toss Clear Mind on debuffers when fighting mezzing opponents, throw Fortitude on any teammate who tended to receive extra aggro and generally supported the team by buffing those who needed it and tossing out a heal when required. They didn't sulk and eventually quit when they had no reason to generate green numbers, instead they helped turn the team into a juggernaut.

Empathy in the hands of a good player is not primarily a healing set by the mid levels.

[Emgro]

I'm a bit biased, having played empathy quite a bit on both Defenders and Controllers, but healing is definitely the weakest thing a support character brings to a team in CoX.

Why?

Lots of reasons people already discussed, but the biggest one is that it doesn't stack.

+DEF? Goes up to the cap, at which point you don't really need more anyway. Same for +RES. Ditto for debuffs; once enemies can't hit, can't damage, and attack at half their normal speed, you don't really need much more.

Overhealing is a complete waste, and when bosses are hitting squishies for more than half their health in a single hit, you can't keep up. Reactive defenses are far weaker than active ones; so-called "healers" can't actually keep someone up, due to lag, recharge issues, and so forth.

So in summary, a "pure healer" (not necessarily an empath, mind you)"
1) Cannot reliably keep a single target alive under high stress without other buffs/debuffs
2) Is significantly more vulnerable to -recharge than buff/debuffers
3) Is not a force multiplier, like other defenders, as overhealing serves no purpose
4) Fails to offer any protection against non-damage effects: debuffs, mezzing, and End Drain

I've played a lot of defenders/corrs/controllers/MMs. I know the support sets, and trust me when I say, an Empath with all three heals is wasting a power, probably wasting two. Rez powers are usually a waste as well. It's all about the buffs. Fortitude, Clear Mind, RA, AB. That's what Empathy is all about.

The devs know it, obviously. You get your weaker powers earlier on, and they decided all those heals were weaker powers.

[YuriFoxfirega]

That's kind of an interesting point.

You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.

[TwilightPhoenix]

As a Rad/ Defender, I've always seen my heal as more of a safety net than a primary source of mitigation. It's something to be used when my debuffs and any outside buffing/debuff/defenses/controls allow damage to get through. Someone gets hurt, I pop Radiant Aura when the opportunity arises and then continue doing my primary job. It's nothing but just another tool and not always the end-all one. And if things really go badly for some reason or another and a teammate actually dies, it's nice to be able to bring them right back into the fight (after making their corpse explode, of course) with a resurrection ability. Sure, a rez is a highly situational power that you, ideally, never want to have to use. But, a situational power is very handy to have when said situation comes up. A rez and any other post-death powers can and have stopped the death from cascading into a team wipe.

Now, I'll admit there's times where healing is one of the more viable solutions to deal with incoming attacks. For example, I plan to duo an ITF with my SR Scrapper. Problem with SR on the ITF is one of Rommy's Nictus has an auto-hit power, making my soft-capped defenses moot. My friend is going to bring an Empath because we suspect that she should be able to keep me alive through the auto-hit barrage with her heals. As beastly as my Scrapper is, he can only take three or four of those hits before dropping, assuming no other damage is landing. But, of course, I'm also bringing along an Empath for other reasons. I would have also taken a Sonic and a Thermal as well, but I don't know anyone with a high level of either set.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

this pretty much sums it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Empaths do far less healing than buffing. At least that's been my experience when teaming with good Empaths. i've been on teams with mediocre to bad Empaths that quit because the buffs and debuffs from other team members made healing largely unneeded beyond patching up minor damage. Many of them had taken the Medicine pool in place of non-healing powers like Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost and Clear Mind. Others has some of those powers but would only use them after repeated requests.

i've also teamed with good Empaths who would toss Clear Mind on debuffers when fighting mezzing opponents, throw Fortitude on any teammate who tended to receive extra aggro and generally supported the team by buffing those who needed it and tossing out a heal when required. They didn't sulk and eventually quit when they had no reason to generate green numbers, instead they helped turn the team into a juggernaut.

Empathy in the hands of a good player is not primarily a healing set by the mid levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Empathy is a set that has heals as well as the ras and fort and ab and even res!. The team compostion will dictate the amount of heals that will get thrown around along with the particpation of the person playing the empathy set.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of an interesting point.

You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many ATs don't use their Tier 1,2 & 3 powers at level 50?

[SStingray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it is. Streakbreaker (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics) isn't just random, it has a system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)

That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
"We need a Support."

[/ QUOTE ]

Support can be healing, buff, debuffs, controlling and a mix of everything.

When I play my stalker with my brother's stalker, we need to go with SoA because of their team defense. If the team gets too big without any support, we'll find some corruptors or MMs.

I sometimes find a Dominator but ever since that Farming Madness period, I haven't seen a good high-lvl dominator for a very long time. Most of the Doms I've teamed with don't know !@#$ about their ATs.


My logic goes like this. If you are resistance based Brute/Tanker, healing can quite beneficial (if that person actually heals you in time). If you are squishies, defense buffs are better for survival.

PS: I would take a good /dark over /empathy any day, any time, any minute.

[Dispari]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it is. Streakbreaker (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics) isn't just random, it has a system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)

That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't drop Radiant Aura, or any heal for that matter.

Heals, as I see them, are the last line of defense. They're the last resort. Relying on them as the primary means of mitigation is a really bad idea. They aren't designed for that. They have long recharges (compared to other games where they recharge in 1-2 seconds).

The most DEF can do for you is 95%. The most RES can do for you is 90% (though usually more like 75%). Both of those can and will fail occasionally. Buffs drop, people wander too far, Unstoppable crashes, AV hits a squishy. That's when heals patch you up.

I like having some heals on the team. I don't like having to rely on the heals as a primary means of mitigation, though. A team can run with nice buffs/debuffs and no heals. It's just a little smoother if there's a heal or two.

[AlienOne]

My two cents?

Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs" who aren't as good (or experienced) at the game as all you *lol-uber* players out there.

I've got an empath, and I like to log it on anytime some of my good friend's kids want to log on and play the game. Rather than them having a bad experience by joining a team comprised of people who expect you to have the "ultimate perfect build" and know what to do in EVERY situation in the game, I allow them to log on with whatever character they want (or make a new one just for fun), and I'll have them exemp my empath down, and I'll keep them alive for as long as they want to play.

But, you're right.

"Healers" shouldn't be in the game.

They're not needed.

"The One"

[Schismatrix]

IMO an Empath isn't primarily a healer anyway, unless you're not playing it very well, though at the lowest levels you don't have many other options. Even so, at the low levels sets like Radiation Emission and Dark Miasma (to name a couple examples) can keep inexperienced teammates up and going as easily as an Empath. My Rad/Dark when starting out was soloing Hollows spawns of 8 or more easily, and was even better on teams.

Anyway, i'm hardly a *lol-uber* player. i've seen some, and i'm nowhere near that good. i've never soloed a GM on one of my Defenders or Controllers, nor have i beaten the RWZ challenge on one of my Scrappers. (Admittedly i haven't tried, either.)

[boardthug]

Healers aren't necessary, but when someone in a forum designed for exchange of information about the game incorrectly states that healers are critical in the game's most difficult content, pointing out the mistake is the sign of a snob? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs"...

[/ QUOTE ]
Like Storm can't do that?

[AlienOne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs"...

[/ QUOTE ]
Like Storm can't do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that's one of the main functions of a Stormy?

'Cause that's what I was saying about empaths.... :p

In no way, shape, or form was I making any sort of statement on Storm toons in my post. I'm actually incredulous of how you'd even assume that's what I was doing, since you "know me so well"...

Here's a question.... Are you going to ask another question to elicit a response that has absolutely nothing to do with my original statement (which originally was intended to counteract the TON of "f**k healer" posts I've already read, and not just in this thread)? And then accuse me of not answering your question after reading this post?

Because that's what I fully expect you to do... ;)

I can play this game all day, friend... Now, whether I *want* to is another story....lol.

"The One"

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. tell that to the STF I did the other week where we had a cold defender, a sonic controller, and a storm controller. and a shield scrapper tanking.

By the way. we only wiped on recluse a single time. and then ripped him apart,

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
Because that's what I fully expect you to do... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.

Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.

So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because that's what I fully expect you to do... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.

Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.

So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. In fact, Empathy "breeds" "newbies" because they thought all they need to do is to "heal". They thought they are so good because people ask for "healers" and that's where problems occur...

Empathy actually requires a lot of clicking to be effective. By clicking your teammates, you may lose track of which enemy to take down first. Sometimes it is safer for the team to take down something quicker and this is when Defender's Secondary comes in!

I think /Dark is a good set for newbie players. They'll learn their lessons leveling up. Starting with how anchor works, how to drop Tar Patch out of sight, how to utilize Fear's cone and how to join melee range to heal without fear of dying in melee range. And in the end, hopefully they'll learn that it is better to control/debuff/buff than trying to out-heal the damage taken.

Sitting on the back and setting Heal on auto doesn't teach much especially if the player rarely attacks.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because that's what I fully expect you to do... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.

Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.

So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. In fact, Empathy "breeds" "newbies" because they thought all they need to do is to "heal". They thought they are so good because people ask for "healers" and that's where problems occur...

Empathy actually requires a lot of clicking to be effective. By clicking your teammates, you may lose track of which enemy to take down first. Sometimes it is safer for the team to take down something quicker and this is when Defender's Secondary comes in!

I think /Dark is a good set for newbie players. They'll learn their lessons leveling up. Starting with how anchor works, how to drop Tar Patch out of sight, how to utilize Fear's cone and how to join melee range to heal without fear of dying in melee range. And in the end, hopefully they'll learn that it is better to control/debuff/buff than trying to out-heal the damage taken.

Sitting on the back and setting Heal on auto doesn't teach much especially if the player rarely attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being an empath as my first defender did teach me to be a better player. As a solo empath, you learn FAST how to get the most out of your secondary.

[AlienOne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because that's what I fully expect you to do... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.

Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.

So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back. Re-read my original post.

Then re-read it again.

Then again.

Rinse and repeat until you get it through your thick skull that what I said was that empaths ALLOW for n00bs to play the game without the "frustration" of knowing exactly how to build their toon right off the bat. Or allow for the fact that a 7-year old can play a blaster and begin to learn how to play it without repeatedly dying within 2 minutes of rolling it. Or--

---nvm. Just re-read the friggin' post. At NO point did I say that "n00bs" should roll an emp first. What I SAID was I LOG ON MY EMP TO KEEP MY FRIEND'S KIDS ALIVE WHILE THEY PLAY A GAME THEY KNOW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT. Which, in the end, makes it a more fun experience for them.

Understand?

No?

Ok, I'm done.

"The One"

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
We've all seen the broadcasts: lvl XX healer lft. I used to think people were referring strictly to empaths, but apparently storm summoners can pass themselves as "healers" as well, with their amazing healing set consisting of a whopping 1 single target heal. Maybe it's just me, but this is just more than a tad bit misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any use of "healer" is misleading. This game doesn't have a dedicated "healer", no matter how desperately some people attempt to shoehorn it in.

[ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, then any blaster who happens to pick up the ally heal from the Medicine power pool can pass themselves off as "healers" as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting warm.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it really isn't. It's part of what some defenders can do, but it's not an important part of what all defenders can do. It's not even the important part of what any defender can do.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
There are times, even when you have great buffs/debuffs/controls, that you just need someone who is good at restoring HP or increasing the other players' regen rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

And those times are when you look for a team that isn't splitting up in eight different directions, aggroing entire rooms when half the team is still fighting in the previous room or running blindly into spawns with six aggro-generating toggles turned on and running back to the group screaming "HEAL ME".

Instead of looking for a "healer", look for the Kick button and better teammates.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have a video of a team w/ no defenders or controllers running and successfully winning a STF? Oh, and extensive use of temp powers, aid other, etc, invalidate that as "your team" isn't really winning, then...

I just don't buy that you never need any kind of heal whatsoever, apart from respites, for some of the hardest content in the game. I've been on teams w/ an ideal makeup, (like a kin, stone tank, rads), that didn't succeed, so you'll have to prove to me that you don't need them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an example of moving the goalposts? i can't tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a roundabout way. He's shipping the entire field across the ocean, goal posts included.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".

[SStingray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it really isn't. It's part of what some defenders can do, but it's not an important part of what all defenders can do. It's not even the important part of what any defender can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".

[/ QUOTE ]

I make an answer to this already and people still try to argue with me about it?

Let me try to restate this clearly, then. Just because healing is the "least important" thing in the defenders' arsenal does not change the fact that it is still important for at least someone to have. Personally, I truly believe if the defenders, controllers, scrappers, and tanks on the team are good enough, Aid Other from the power pool on two people is enough. Stimulant from the same power-pool is really useful for teammates to have as well.

Storm's O2 does most (but not quite all) of the same things with no interruption and half the recharge rate and with only a single power. Radiant Aura, Transfusion, Twilight's Grasp, Healing Aura and Heal Other are all powers that can replace Aid Other from the power pool, with some of them also effectively replacing Aid Self at the same time. So usually it falls to the Defender to provide what healing is necessary.

Otherwise, if the Scrapper wants to take the medicine power pool and call himself a healer then that's just fine with me.

You know what? This is the same argument I've been in three years ago. It is also clear that everybody is ignorant, lazy, and just plain incompetent except "you." Time for me to get used to it, again. Enough is enough. This thread is not worth coming back to if people are just going to say the same things over and over again. It's not a discussion or debate. It is just an angry argument.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of an interesting point.

You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many ATs don't use their Tier 1,2 & 3 powers at level 50?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that was even remotely close to my point, sadly.

I was merely commenting on the fact that there aren't a lot of heals (Infact, none I could find in a Support secondary unless we count Regeneration as a heal - which I don't, but I understand where other people can and respectfully disagree on semantic issues; And in this case, only Regeneration Aura qualifies in this regard. Perhaps also Frostworks - Never worked with it, so I have no idea) above the Third Tier of power selection, where it's reasonably accepted that most of these powers are weaker then those at the upper tiers, but because of recharge may or may not be staples or 'filler' anyway.

Case in point - Tier 2 for Controllers is most often a Hold, and Tier 3 most often an Area Immobilize power. Once solid controls are developed, these often blossom up into the most often used powers in the set, for locking down priority targets and keeping mobs clumped for AoEs. While still not as powerful as, say, an Area Disorient or Area Hold, they're up far more often and can also be used as a solid source of damage.

Secondary Case - Brutes are often encouraged to take their first three powers, simply for the fact that they recharge fast and can be thereby used to generate Fury far more rapidly then upper tier attacks (letting those attacks hit harder).

But, at the same time... no heals above third tier. It's a curious choice, in my mind, and absolutely nothing more.

[Gearford]

ok gents, im about to post up my opinion. please stop salivating, getting ready to type like little madtrolls because "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG NOOB!!!"

the OP was talking about a stormy getting in as a response to a broadcast for a healer. this means it was puggy

its way easier to be a good "mere healer" than it is to be good with your whole set.

amongst your S/VG or with friends, id agree with all the healer haters in the thread. I am not, however, going to take a chance puggin it up with some sonic cause he says things like "once i buff/debuff you wont need a healer!" and have him turn out to be some nubby nub nub.

laymans:
good buff/debuff > good healer
bad healer > bad buff/debuff

pugs are all about statistics. you have a better chance with someone AT'd for healing than the stormy or TA.

[YuriFoxfirega]

Bad Healer = Twit that does nothing but spam Healing Aura and thinks he's contributing.

Bad Buffer = FF that just leaves on Dispersion Bubble and spams KDs/KBs.

Which one contributes more mitigation? Hmm?

Stating anything as an absolute when talking about player skill is ridiculous because there are more variables then just the skill of the player involved.

Drives me nuts.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
ok gents, im about to post up my opinion. please stop salivating, getting ready to type like little madtrolls because "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG NOOB!!!"

the OP was talking about a stormy getting in as a response to a broadcast for a healer. this means it was puggy

its way easier to be a good "mere healer" than it is to be good with your whole set.

amongst your S/VG or with friends, id agree with all the healer haters in the thread. I am not, however, going to take a chance puggin it up with some sonic cause he says things like "once i buff/debuff you wont need a healer!" and have him turn out to be some nubby nub nub.

laymans:
good buff/debuff > good healer
bad healer > bad buff/debuff

pugs are all about statistics. you have a better chance with someone AT'd for healing than the stormy or TA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're supposed to be trying to say here, but if I get stuck with a bad player of any AT, I'm dropping them as fast as I can and I'll pick up a replacement who isn't terrible. For clarity's sake, "bad" in this case refers to this player's inability to play his/her AT while simultaneously refusing to heed the advice of the rest of the group. I have no problem trying to help a new player figure out the intricacies of a particular combination (or to break them of previous MMO habits), but the minute they think that their bad play is how it's supposed to be played and WE all suck? Yeah, they're outta the group.

As to the topic of this thread, the only thing I've ever associated with the "healer" title is a player who only takes (or only uses) their heal powers and does nothing else. This type of player is completely worthless to me for many reasons, not the least of which being that I can find a real Defender or Controller who not only uses their heals, but isn't afraid to click their other power buttons. This is also a hot-button topic with me specifically because my Dark Defender spent a lot of time being kicked from teams because she wasn't an Empath and I wasn't spamming my heals enough (nevermind the fact that nobody was even taking damage that my single heal fired off every 15 minutes couldn't patch up).

As far as I'm concerned, if you choose to represent yourself as a Healer, I'm going to assume that you fall into my definition of the term and I won't knowingly pick you for my team. I couldn't care less if you actually play your Defender like a defender and use every power in your primary and secondary -- if I see you asking for a team, and you call yourself a Healer, I'll never know because I refuse to take the chance on grabbing a bum leech teammate.

[Captain_Wacky]

You know what makes a great team healer great? Having another great defender on the same team. :)

[Universal_Therum]

Not in direct response to the one I replied against

I love it when these posts come up and all the "healer haters" come out of the woodwork. I agree that when anyone takes one attack and the rest are nothing more than heals and pool powers that are non-attacking it is a waste of space on a team.

My empath defenders are great with heals and still contribute to the team by attacking more than 1x per mob. Not EVERYONE plays their "healers" like a noob on drugs.

To the OP, if they have a way to heal a member of the team I would say they can say they are a healer. If your looking for an empath then you should be looking for someone that advertises themselves as an empath and not a healer.

To all "healer Haters", I have seen teams run perfectly fine without a healer on. Healers are not required but certainly makes life just a tad easier. So lets lighten up on the healer bashing and just plain say there are some of them that can contribute more to the team than others.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
Not in direct response to the one I replied against

I love it when these posts come up and all the "healer haters" come out of the woodwork. I agree that when anyone takes one attack and the rest are nothing more than heals and pool powers that are non-attacking it is a waste of space on a team.

My empath defenders are great with heals and still contribute to the team by attacking more than 1x per mob. Not EVERYONE plays their "healers" like a noob on drugs.

To the OP, if they have a way to heal a member of the team I would say they can say they are a healer. If your looking for an empath then you should be looking for someone that advertises themselves as an empath and not a healer.

To all "healer Haters", I have seen teams run perfectly fine without a healer on. Healers are not required but certainly makes life just a tad easier. So lets lighten up on the healer bashing and just plain say there are some of them that can contribute more to the team than others.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so odd about using the proper term for the AT - defender, corrupter, mastermind, or controller - that you go so far out of your way to say 'healer'?

I have no problem with Empaths, Thermals, Rads, Darks, or even Stormies. But, honestly, I find the term 'healer' a distinction that is not necessary, and is a hold-over of games where The Holy Trifecta (Tank-Heal-DPSx3) is the one and only true path to getting anything done, and woe betide you for trying otherwise.

This game's built on wildly different rules. You can roll with almost any combination of ATs provided the players are at least half-competent, paying attention, and willing to listen. It doesn't really matter beyond that.

You can call'em healers, but I'll use the proper distinctive term to adequately describe everything they bring to the team - and that's either defender, or controller.

Or if we're rollin' red, Corrupter or Mastermind.

They do so much more for your team when played right, it's discrediting to compliment them on only one part of their designed function.

EDIT: An official apology for all the red-side homies I forgot about when making this post - leaving you out of the initial rant was, in hindsight, an insult. :/ We coo', though, right?

[Fleeting Whisper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it is. Streakbreaker (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics) isn't just random, it has a system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)

That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't drop Radiant Aura, or any heal for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[Universal_Therum]

[ QUOTE ]
What's so odd about using the proper term for the AT - defender, corrupter, mastermind, or controller - that you go so far out of your way to say 'healer'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that if someone advertises themselves as a "healer" then you can question if they will do anything else. :p

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with Empaths, Thermals, Rads, Darks, or even Stormies. But, honestly, I find the term 'healer' a distinction that is not necessary, and is a hold-over of games where The Holy Trifecta (Tank-Heal-DPSx3) is the one and only true path to getting anything done, and woe betide you for trying otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with this statement also. Everyone on a team should be able to carry themselves no matter the AT they are.

[YuriFoxfirega]

We all good, then. :3

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]
quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[Universal_Therum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

The AT can throw the heal to save someone but as stated through out this thread should also help with defeating the groups.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking from experience, there are just some instances where you cannot save the person being targeted. They're boned. Trying to save them when you could be saving someone else, then hitting Vengenace/Fallout/Mutation to completely turn the tide and get me back into the fight anyway, is not the best or most efficient course of action.

As for the experience point, my SG jokes that it's not a good night if I don't go off like a maniac and get myself baked at least once. And I am deeply saddened and disappointed whenever a faceplant happens, and I'm not the one taking the nap.

...Not to say that I suck (totally different rant), but I do frequently get myself into situations where no amount of healing will save me - it'll just delay the inevitable.

[Fleeting Whisper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]If they don't die, how'm I supposed to use my nuke? :(

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]If they don't die, how'm I supposed to use my nuke? :(

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel you there, man. My Fire Aura scrapper is just drooling over the thought of having Rise of the Phoenix.

...as is my Fire Blaster, but she's got a far longer wait.

[DMystic]

Technically my Stalker with Aid Other and Resuscitate is a Healer.
That same technicality makes my Dominator with Vengeance a healer as well.

[KingSnake]

5 years and this dead horse is still being beaten on a daily basics it seems.

And alot of you have been fighting this fight for YEARS. WHY??? So people call defenders and controllers and corr's "healers".. so what? Have they insulted your mother or kicked your dog or something? Anyone who's played any ammount of time knows defenders are MORE then just healers, but alot of them call them that just the same. Newer people will learn. I've been playing as non healing "healers" for years now and have not been discriminated against at all in forever.

I've played nearly all the defendeing powersets to 50, all the non healers, like FF, sonic, and TA, and not once has anyone had issues with me. they laugh at my TA, but that's kind of a running joke now isn't it?

I'd have though we'd have gotten past this by now... LOL.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
5 years and this dead horse is still being beaten on a daily basics it seems.

And alot of you have been fighting this fight for YEARS. WHY??? So people call defenders and controllers and corr's "healers".. so what? Have they insulted your mother or kicked your dog or something? Anyone who's played any ammount of time knows defenders are MORE then just healers, but alot of them call them that just the same. Newer people will learn. I've been playing as non healing "healers" for years now and have not been discriminated against at all in forever.

I've played nearly all the defendeing powersets to 50, all the non healers, like FF, sonic, and TA, and not once has anyone had issues with me. they laugh at my TA, but that's kind of a running joke now isn't it?

I'd have though we'd have gotten past this by now... LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's fighting discrimination?

I'm battling ignorance.

Completely different set of gloves for that, mang.

'Healer' is a pointless, unnecessary distinction that is just as easily covered by the greater terms of 'Defender', 'Corrupter', 'Controller', and 'Mastermind', which are far more accurate and give you a much better approximation about the potential capabilities of the person involved.

And that's a pretty long winded post for something you could've clipped at the start. Anything you wanna share with the class? :3

[KingSnake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 years and this dead horse is still being beaten on a daily basics it seems.

And alot of you have been fighting this fight for YEARS. WHY??? So people call defenders and controllers and corr's "healers".. so what? Have they insulted your mother or kicked your dog or something? Anyone who's played any ammount of time knows defenders are MORE then just healers, but alot of them call them that just the same. Newer people will learn. I've been playing as non healing "healers" for years now and have not been discriminated against at all in forever.

I've played nearly all the defendeing powersets to 50, all the non healers, like FF, sonic, and TA, and not once has anyone had issues with me. they laugh at my TA, but that's kind of a running joke now isn't it?

I'd have though we'd have gotten past this by now... LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's fighting discrimination?

I'm battling ignorance.

Completely different set of gloves for that, mang.

'Healer' is a pointless, unnecessary distinction that is just as easily covered by the greater terms of 'Defender', 'Corrupter', 'Controller', and 'Mastermind', which are far more accurate and give you a much better approximation about the potential capabilities of the person involved.

And that's a pretty long winded post for something you could've clipped at the start. Anything you wanna share with the class? :3

[/ QUOTE ]

Longwinded, i'm not out of breath at all. :) Fight all you want. People have for 5 years, you haven't won, and you won't. I just don't see the point is all. But carry on if you most. I spit me rant out, i'm good, i'm off to the game now. heh. have fun!

[YuriFoxfirega]

Eh. If everyone rolled over and gave up, nothing would get done.

Worked for Gahndi.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
I make an answer to this already and people still try to argue with me about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Argument" implies a dispute over facts. No-one has offered you any argument, we've merely corrected misinformation.

Fact: there is no such thing as a "healer" in this game (other than Cimerora Surgeon critters). No specific AT, not even a specific powerset, is dedicated to healing. Even Empathy, the powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.

Fact: the game was designed to avoid the need for "healers". Not only is there a greater emphasis on proactive buffs and debuffs than in similar games, but all players are also given access to healing powers via the Medicine pool, temporary powers, pets and inspirations. All players, not one or two specific ATs or powersets, can heal both themselves and their teammates if they wish.

Fact: with the specific exception of healing badges, none of the content in this game was designed to require heals to be completed. Every task/strike force and trial in the game can be completed by a team of competent players without a single one of them being capable of healing.

Fact: there is no "heal aggro". The potential for that specific type of aggro does exist, but it has never been "turned on". The developers deliberately and consciously chose, and still choose, to treat healing as just one of many forms of damage mitigation, not a special form of mitigation worthy of special attention.

Fact: proactive damage mitigation is superior to reactive damage mitigation in this game, in every conceivable way. Healing is reactive mitigation, and as such, it costs more endurance in the long run, requires more effort and places the players at greater risk of defeat.

Fact: in the few rare situations where players became reliant on healing in order to progress through content, the developers changed that content to alleviate the emphasis on healing. Note the changes to Hamidon raids and the addition of "heal decay" in PvP for examples.

Fact: healing is not an important "role" for or function of defenders, controllers, corruptors, masterminds or any other AT, or any AT with access to any powerset with one or more heal powers. Healing is just one potential source of damage mitigation out of many.

Heals are tools, and yes, they're versatile, but they aren't the only tools, or the best ones in the toolbox.

[ QUOTE ]
You know what? This is the same argument I've been in three years ago. It is also clear that everybody is ignorant, lazy, and just plain incompetent except "you."

[/ QUOTE ]

Has nothing to do with me. I don't even have any particular interest in "healer" debates, I just prefer to see accurate information conveyed on the forums. And it is accurate to say that heals aren't important as a function of any one AT or powerset, and that players who emphasize healing as the sole or primary method of progression through content are doing so out of ignorance (lack of knowledge, not stupidity), laziness (preferring to make others work harder to support them, or simply not willing to wait a few seconds while a buffer/debuffer does his/her thing before combat) or incompetence (playing poorly).

Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm not insulting anyone or pointing fingers.

[Transhade]

How to Ressurect the Dead Horse:

I just love how people try to say empathy is a set for noobs when there are just as many bad players playing other ATs out there.

Of course this is easliy proven by the number of people complaining about all the broadcasts that people make looking for healers. I doubt any of them making the the broadcasts are made by people playing an empathy set.

Then you mix the people who overact to people braodcasting looking for healers.

Lastly, sprinkle a person who is a bad player playing the empathy set and poof the dead horse lives again.

[Dispari]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]If they don't die, how'm I supposed to use my nuke? :(

[/ QUOTE ]
Living allies are of no use to a Widow.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
I LOG ON MY EMP TO KEEP MY FRIEND'S KIDS ALIVE WHILE THEY PLAY A GAME THEY KNOW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you for being more clear.

Empathy is okay, but not great, at what you're trying to do with it. Cold Domination, Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, and Storm Summoning are more up the "single handedly keeping a team of 8 out of debt" alley. Especially Dark Miasma. I'd still rank Empathy above Kinetics, Sonic Resonance, and Trick Arrow, though.

I apologize if it is not your intent to imply that Empathy is the set best suited for that purpose, when it's closer to fifth best out of eight, but that's how I read it.

[Folonius]

[ QUOTE ]
We've all seen the broadcasts: lvl XX healer lft. I used to think people were referring strictly to empaths, but apparently storm summoners can pass themselves as "healers" as well, with their amazing healing set consisting of a whopping 1 single target heal. Maybe it's just me, but this is just more than a tad bit misleading. If this is the case, then any blaster who happens to pick up the ally heal from the Medicine power pool can pass themselves off as "healers" as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healers don't exist in this game. For me, it's buffers or debuffers. A heal is nothing more than a buff to your hp.

[SStingray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I make an answer to this already and people still try to argue with me about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Argument" implies a dispute over facts. No-one has offered you any argument, we've merely corrected misinformation.


[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, argument in this context is a verbal dispute or quarrel.

Saying the same things over and over again without listening to dissenting opinions never makes a "fact." To be anything other than just an opinion, proof is needed. Sometimes debate is needed to strip the real facts from the opinions and biased viewpoints masquerading as such.
[ QUOTE ]

Fact: there is no such thing as a "healer" in this game (other than Cimerora Surgeon critters). No specific AT, not even a specific powerset, is dedicated to healing. Even Empathy, the powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.


[/ QUOTE ]
False. See below.
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: the game was designed to avoid the need for "healers". Not only is there a greater emphasis on proactive buffs and debuffs than in similar games, but all players are also given access to healing powers via the Medicine pool, temporary powers, pets and inspirations. All players, not one or two specific ATs or powersets, can heal both themselves and their teammates if they wish.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that is one of my points I was trying to make. All players have the option of investing in Medicine power pool and being a Healer, should they so choose.

If there were no such thing as healers in the game, then the Medicine pool wouldn't exist. Neither would the Empath, Thermal, or Pain Domination sets. So this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the previous "fact."
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: with the specific exception of healing badges, none of the content in this game was designed to require heals to be completed. Every task/strike force and trial in the game can be completed by a team of competent players without a single one of them being capable of healing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't argue that the original City of Heroes was deliberately designed in such a way as to make healers unnecessary. Frankly I was there back in I1 and reading the developers talk about it. The real issue is, the design in this case just isn't perfect, possibly deliberately. Are healing inspirations building up in your inventory to be converted to other inspirations or simply used to make room for more of other types? Did you and your supergroup skip the Health power from the Fitness pool (which almost everyone takes on their way to Stamina). Did you forget about the Rest power that everyone has starting at level 2? These are all, technically, healing powers.

Tell me that you can clear a task force without your team taking a single point of damage and I'll laugh in your face. Even if you honestly think you've done it.

But this really gets back to the original topic. Exactly what is supposed to be the definition of "healer?" How can we avoid misusing it if people can't agree on what it means.
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: there is no "heal aggro". The potential for that specific type of aggro does exist, but it has never been "turned on". The developers deliberately and consciously chose, and still choose, to treat healing as just one of many forms of damage mitigation, not a special form of mitigation worthy of special attention.


[/ QUOTE ]
Truth, and I have never argued otherwise. Was this brought up before?
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: proactive damage mitigation is superior to reactive damage mitigation in this game, in every conceivable way. Healing is reactive mitigation, and as such, it costs more endurance in the long run, requires more effort and places the players at greater risk of defeat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, you're preaching to the choir here. Damage mitigation is superior to recovery. As I tried to say before, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: in the few rare situations where players became reliant on healing in order to progress through content, the developers changed that content to alleviate the emphasis on healing. Note the changes to Hamidon raids and the addition of "heal decay" in PvP for examples.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good for them. They're correcting balance issues that made healers overpowered.
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: healing is not an important "role" for or function of defenders, controllers, corruptors, masterminds or any other AT, or any AT with access to any powerset with one or more heal powers. Healing is just one potential source of damage mitigation out of many.


[/ QUOTE ]
False. And that is one of the conflicts that really irks me. I would expect that Empaths, Pain Domination users, and Thermal users would start getting huge rebalancing boosts, or the rest of the damage mitigation sets getting huge nerfs if this ever did become "fact." That's not even considering that the last sentence of this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the first.
[ QUOTE ]

Heals are tools, and yes, they're versatile, but they aren't the only tools, or the best ones in the toolbox.


[/ QUOTE ]
Which is, ironically, a huge contradiction to your last "fact," and a rephrased version of what I have been saying. Heals are tools, yes. They aren't the only tools or even always the best ones in the toolbox. But they're really versatile.
[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
You know what? This is the same argument I've been in three years ago. It is also clear that everybody is ignorant, lazy, and just plain incompetent except "you."

[/ QUOTE ]

Has nothing to do with me. I don't even have any particular interest in "healer" debates, I just prefer to see accurate information conveyed on the forums. And it is accurate to say that heals aren't important as a function of any one AT or powerset, and that players who emphasize healing as the sole or primary method of progression through content are doing so out of ignorance (lack of knowledge, not stupidity), laziness (preferring to make others work harder to support them, or simply not willing to wait a few seconds while a buffer/debuffer does his/her thing before combat) or incompetence (playing poorly).

Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm not insulting anyone or pointing fingers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a good idea to take me, or any forum reader, for a fool either.

A lot of the game mechanics has only recently been made more open, and I have been away for a long time. The player community, and therefore the forum, is still pretty much the best resource for for players to know what works, what doesn't, and how well it works. So when there is a significant difference to what people are saying and what I actually see in the game, the only sane way to deal with the misinformation is to poke at it in the forums and see what happens. I do enjoy a good debate occasionally.

I have already accepted the fact that I had a bit of misinformation on opponent accuracy and that defense on Invincible is better than I gave it credit for. But checking the facts still came up with a nasty hole. Having 1 out of 11 enemy blows able to hit can be really nasty when something like a Warrior Hewer lieutenant can take out half of a blaster's or defender's hit points in one lucky strike.

Sure if the tank or controller can get control again, the squishie can get to safety and rest up. But healing is still an incredibly convenient band-aid to get the teammate back in the battle quickly and safely as long as the damage mitigation is still there. "As long as the damage mitigation is still there" being a key phrase here. With healing alone, the "healer" ends up forced to rely on Revive, Resuscitate, Mutation, etc. etc. to pick instantly defeated teammates off the floor. But as long as the damage mitigation is there (and that's worth repeating), healing can bring someone back from the edge who got unlucky before they get two-shotted by a run of bad luck. The only real way to replace that kind of convenience is to have multiple defenders buffing both the defense and resistance of everyone involved so you have both the 91% defense mitigation and the 75% resistance mitigation (and possibly even a 50% slow-based damaged mitigation on top of that). I just don't see that happening outside a dedicated super-group or the old "City of Defenders" that existed before the rebalancing act they pulled years ago to correct that. (That was some fun times on the forum. :p )

Yes, healing is still important. I am still not convinced to drop Radiant Aura from my character build.

[Inokis]

I can heal my bots one at a time with Repair. My Protector Bots do most of the necessary healing when the fighting gets a tad rough however. I've thought about picking up something from one of the powersets, but honestly I'm not sure how much I'd use it.

I would say that without either Repair or Protector bots, I'd have a hard time being a successful MM in tough spots, especially against EB. I think for reasons like these people continue on the logic that healing is necessary for success.

[Brawlnstein]

[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like Empathy needs a buff? (or storm a nerf....)
Unless the gap from average to good is supposed to be "far outperforms" wide.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
The devs know it, obviously. You get your weaker powers earlier on, and they decided all those heals were weaker powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the devs have ALWAYS maintained that you get your key power early on, and your more specialized ones later. Your early powers are the ones you're expected to use early and often.

As to the main topic...sigh.

Healing is powerful and useful, but not strictly necessary because characters can have extensive regeneration/heals on their own in CoH. It's not that healing isn't important, it's that everyone has/can have it to a reasonable degree.

Buffs are important too. I think anyone who ignores either buffs or heals is a noob. I expect rads to take and use their heal. I expect empaths to take and use their buffs. The sets are balanced around the whole. The anti-healer forces want to minimize the role of healing, to the detriment of their teams, in my opinion. They are no different that the folks who do the opposite and think heals are the end all of mitigation.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
Even Empathy, the powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing Aura
Heal Other
Absorb Pain
Regen Aura
Resurrect
Adrenalin Boost

Sounds like 6 of 9 to me? :confused:

[Ipso_Facto]

[ QUOTE ]
The sets are balanced around the whole. The anti-healer forces want to minimize the role of healing, to the detriment of their teams, in my opinion. They are no different that the folks who do the opposite and think heals are the end all of mitigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Truth here. This is where the anti-"healer" forces always lose me: They want to take the fact that healing is not as important as buffs and debuffs--which I agree with--and take it all the way to the conclusion that healing is not important at all. Worthless. Not even worth having.

In other words, buffs/debuffs alone are better than healing alone. But also, buffs debuffs plus healing is better than buffs/debuffs alone.

And about the word "healer." Aside from some highly specialized mathematical and technical terms, there's not a word in the English language that doesn't have a fuzzy definition, or multiple definitions, or different definitions to different people, or different definitions to the same person at different times depending on the context. The word "healer" is not exceptional in this regard. It's the very nature of human language.

I agree that using the AT name is better/more precise/less controversial, and in fact that's what I do--but using "healer" as a shortcut isn't exactly a high crime, and I can't for the life of me understand how it can possibly be worth so much angst.

So that was my rant on the subject, I guess. Glad I got that off my chest.

[ItsJustJake]

A Healer Thread? It must be Tuesday. Hey! It is!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever Seen or Used Vengeance? I have been on teams willing to rotate who GETS to die, just so we can hit Vengeance, Falluout, and Rez and then wipe the floor with the next few groups.

:-)

[Atheism]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Fact: there is no such thing as a "healer" in this game (other than Cimerora Surgeon critters). No specific AT, not even a specific powerset, is dedicated to healing. Even Empathy, the
powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.


[/ QUOTE ]
False. See below.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. No set in a Defender primary is dedicated to healing as Luminara(sp?) said.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: the game was designed to avoid the need for "healers". Not only is there a greater emphasis on proactive buffs and debuffs than in similar games, but all players are also given access to healing powers via the Medicine pool, temporary powers, pets and inspirations. All players, not one or two specific ATs or powersets, can heal both themselves and their teammates if they wish.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that is one of my points I was trying to make. All players have the option of investing in Medicine power pool and being a Healer, should they so choose.

If there were no such thing as healers in the game, then the Medicine pool wouldn't exist. Neither would the Empath, Thermal, or Pain Domination sets. So this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the previous "fact."

[/ QUOTE ]

False, even if there were no 'healers', the medicine pool would still exist.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: with the specific exception of healing badges, none of the content in this game was designed to require heals to be completed. Every task/strike force and trial in the game can be completed by a team of competent players without a single one of them being capable of healing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't argue that the original City of Heroes was deliberately designed in such a way as to make healers unnecessary. Frankly I was there back in I1 and reading the developers talk about it. The real issue is, the design in this case just isn't perfect, possibly deliberately. Are healing inspirations building up in your inventory to be converted to other inspirations or simply used to make room for more of other types? Did you and your supergroup skip the Health power from the Fitness pool (which almost everyone takes on their way to Stamina). Did you forget about the Rest power that everyone has starting at level 2? These are all, technically, healing powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong. Powers that regenerate your health are far from healing powers. For them to be considered healing powers, green numbers would have to appear, which they don't.

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me that you can clear a task force without your team taking a single point of damage and I'll laugh in your face. Even if you honestly think you've done it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's not a single point of damage, but close to none is what I would call because when I completed the MoSTF with, there wasn't one situation where someone was close to dead. And this was all thanks to a FF Defender.

[ QUOTE ]
But this really gets back to the original topic. Exactly what is supposed to be the definition of "healer?" How can we avoid misusing it if people can't agree on what it means.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure healing means restoring someone's health through the use of green numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: proactive damage mitigation is superior to reactive damage mitigation in this game, in every conceivable way. Healing is reactive mitigation, and as such, it costs more endurance in the long run, requires more effort and places the players at greater risk of defeat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, you're preaching to the choir here. Damage mitigation is superior to recovery. As I tried to say before, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, casting Fortitude on several players is better than casting Heal Other on them twenty times.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: in the few rare situations where players became reliant on healing in order to progress through content, the developers changed that content to alleviate the emphasis on healing. Note the changes to Hamidon raids and the addition of "heal decay" in PvP for examples.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good for them. They're correcting balance issues that made healers overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: healing is not an important "role" for or function of defenders, controllers, corruptors, masterminds or any other AT, or any AT with access to any powerset with one or more heal powers. Healing is just one potential source of damage mitigation out of many.


[/ QUOTE ]
False. And that is one of the conflicts that really irks me. I would expect that Empaths, Pain Domination users, and Thermal users would start getting huge rebalancing boosts, or the rest of the damage mitigation sets getting huge nerfs if this ever did become "fact." That's not even considering that the last sentence of this "fact" is a direct contradiction to the first.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are healing powers better than buffs and debuffs?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heals are tools, and yes, they're versatile, but they aren't the only tools, or the best ones in the toolbox.


[/ QUOTE ]
Which is, ironically, a huge contradiction to your last "fact," and a rephrased version of what I have been saying. Heals are tools, yes. They aren't the only tools or even always the best ones in the toolbox. But they're really versatile.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a contradiction at all. Both of his or her statements were an agreement to each other saying that healing powers are versatile or have mitigation (I call BS on the mitigation though).

And I highly disagree that healing powers are really versatile. While you could be healing someone, you could also be casting Fortitude or hitting them up with AB + RA.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure if the tank or controller can get control again, the squishie can get to safety and rest up. But healing is still an incredibly convenient band-aid to get the teammate back in the battle quickly and safely as long as the damage mitigation is still there. "As long as the damage mitigation is still there" being a key phrase here. With healing alone, the "healer" ends up forced to rely on Revive, Resuscitate, Mutation, etc. etc. to pick instantly defeated teammates off the floor. But as long as the damage mitigation is there (and that's worth repeating), healing can bring someone back from the edge who got unlucky before they get two-shotted by a run of bad luck. The only real way to replace that kind of convenience is to have multiple defenders buffing both the defense and resistance of everyone involved so you have both the 91% defense mitigation and the 75% resistance mitigation (and possibly even a 50% slow-based damaged mitigation on top of that). I just don't see that happening outside a dedicated super-group or the old "City of Defenders" that existed before the rebalancing act they pulled years ago to correct that. (That was some fun times on the forum. :p )

Yes, healing is still important. I am still not convinced to drop Radiant Aura from my character build.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct on one thing, healing is only good to bring someone to close to full health if they're death. That's is something buffs can't do, however, buffs are there so the player's health doesn't drop that low. All healing pretty much is either a waste or delays the inevitable. I also wouldn't be surprised if a person was doing nothing but healing they would have to use a rez power.

Also, any powerset can easily replace another even if the set has a healing power. The most obvious is FF or Cold Domination. Cold Dom is a beast of a set and FF just makes sure you don't have a pop another green again.


I agree with you about not dropping Radiant Aura for one reason only. I would only use it to make either myself or someone else to bring them out of the red. Other than that, I wouldn't use it at all.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even Empathy, the powerset most likely to be used by someone attempting to create a "healer", has heals or +Regen buffs in fewer than half of its powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing Aura
Heal Other
Absorb Pain
Regen Aura
Resurrect
Adrenalin Boost

Sounds like 6 of 9 to me? :confused:

[/ QUOTE ]

5/9 (yes, i was wrong about Emp's total number of +regen buffs, didn't account for AB). Resurrect isn't a heal.

[DMystic]

I can see Resurrections being counted as heals.

After all they do bring you up form 0 HP to Full HP, suppl you that big green number and count towards the healing badges.

Of course this is all technical but then again technically My Dominator with Vengeance is a healer.

[RadDidIt]

I found the ultimate misuse of Heal0r:

"Dude, I friggin healed her all night long... she was doing the heal-walk the whole afternoon."




........or is that the BEST USE EVAR?


Nope. Pretty bad.

[Transhade]

+regen heals. This is the hind leg of the horse. AB also regens. That is the tail.

[Oedipus_Tex]

...

Mesmerized by this thread. The healer-hate just seems a little dramatic.

Healing is not as bad as people are making it out to be. Heals, numerically, work exactly the same as damage resistance in that they extend the amount of HP you can sustain before dying. They are reactive, but they "protect" from all forms of damage, regardless of source.

Arguments that you can just carry a tray of greens miss the point that you could have been carrying a tray of something else.

Healing is effective in some situations. Waiting an hour for a "healer" is stupid if you could have had a different team member join you. Both of these facts are pretty much undeniable. I would think.

I have played characters that have heals. At level 50 they do sometimes have to use the heal. And sometimes the heal helps a lot. Sometimes not. It depends. Just like my Controllers, who sometimes don't get get to use sleep/knockback/knockdown because of what the team is doing.

[Oedipus_Tex]

By the way, as to why people get the idea that having a healer is important early on, it's because early on a healer, *is* extremely effective. I'm sure someone can come up with an obscure build to try to prove this wrong, but that fist run through the sewers is made ten times easier if someone can heal.

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]


Buffs are important too. I think anyone who ignores either buffs or heals is a noob. I expect rads to take and use their heal. I expect empaths to take and use their buffs. The sets are balanced around the whole. The anti-healer forces want to minimize the role of healing, to the detriment of their teams, in my opinion. They are no different that the folks who do the opposite and think heals are the end all of mitigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

EG speaks the truth.

[Battlebabe]

[ QUOTE ]
If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

[/ QUOTE ]

And a good empath outperforms an average storm defender. A good one of either is a powerful ally.

[AlienOne]

[ QUOTE ]
...

Mesmerized by this thread. The healer-hate just seems a little dramatic.

Healing is not as bad as people are making it out to be. Heals, numerically, work exactly the same as damage resistance in that they extend the amount of HP you can sustain before dying. They are reactive, but they "protect" from all forms of damage, regardless of source.

Arguments that you can just carry a tray of greens miss the point that you could have been carrying a tray of something else.

Healing is effective in some situations. Waiting an hour for a "healer" is stupid if you could have had a different team member join you. Both of these facts are pretty much undeniable. I would think.

I have played characters that have heals. At level 50 they do sometimes have to use the heal. And sometimes the heal helps a lot. Sometimes not. It depends. Just like my Controllers, who sometimes don't get get to use sleep/knockback/knockdown because of what the team is doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

By George, I think someone's *got* it!

...And, look!!! His post count isn't high, nor has he been registered for that long!

Nothing short of a miracle, I know.... But this proves that highly intelligent observations are not limited to the "forum cartel."

:P

"The One"

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like Empathy needs a buff? (or storm a nerf....)
Unless the gap from average to good is supposed to be "far outperforms" wide.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's many many newbies and perma-newbies dragging down Empathy's average. :(

Though in fairness, I played with not one, but two solid empaths on a PuG KHTF last night. Refreshing experience.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
+regen heals. This is the hind leg of the horse. AB also regens. That is the tail.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason I never count +Regen as a heal is because +Regen doesn't get you any credit on the healing badges. Powers that heal other targets, including Rez powers, do. Thus, Rez powers are heals purely due to a game mechanic. Of course, this brings up self-heal powers not counting towards healing badges, but then again, the healing badges only count heals done to other players. Since you can cast +Regen powers on other players, but it doesn't budge your heal badge count, it's not a heal in my opinion.

Of course, I figured that would be obvious, but players love to stretch their definitions of things to account for as many things that fall outside of it as possible. I've had people try to argue that +Resist was technically a heal because it effectively increased your HP and "preemptively healed" damage that would have been dealt to you in full if not for the +Resist.

I've already chimed in on the topic at hand, but I'll reiterate here that anyone advertising themselves as a "healer" regardless of AT or character build will get passed over by me. I'll take someone who I know will use all their powers instead of the person who, more often than not, just follows the tank and puts their heal aura on auto.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see Resurrections being counted as heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the Awaken inspiration a heal, then? Do you use it to recover HP during a fight?

No and no.

Rezzes can restore HP, but they aren't heals.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
Rezzes can restore HP, but they aren't heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm boggled by this statement.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can see Resurrections being counted as heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the Awaken inspiration a heal, then? Do you use it to recover HP during a fight?

No and no.

Rezzes can restore HP, but they aren't heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post. As far as the game coding is concerned, a Rez counts as heal because it counts towards the heal badges.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rezzes can restore HP, but they aren't heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm boggled by this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

+Regen "restores" HP as well, but it's not a heal according to the game's standards for what constitutes a heal.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rezzes can restore HP, but they aren't heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm boggled by this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a question of terminology. If we deem "everything that restores HP" to be heals, then we are then required, by our own lack of restriction, to refer to every possible method of HP restoration as "healing". That would even include natural regeneration.

So we break things up into sub-groups. +Regen powers, +HP powers, Heals, Rezzes, each a distinct and separate category.

What is a Heal? A Heal restores HP immediately to a still living target.

What is +Regen? +Regen restores HP over time by increasing natural regeneration.

What is +HP? +HP increases base HP, which in turn makes natural or buffed regeneration more effective.

What is Rez? Rez restores HP to a dead target.

Same reason we refer to attacks with different vectors as single-target, AoE, PBAoE and cone. Categorization.

[Oedipus_Tex]

I want to add something else.

One thing that hasn't been accounted for in this discussion is the value of having topped off HP. This isn't something I expect well-armored characters to understand, but anyone with a high level squishy probably can.

Basically, any time your HP is not topped off, you are at risk of a one-shot death. If you have done any amount of high level teaming you have seen this happen to your team mates. One second they are doing great, then in the next instant they are KO'ed. This happens mostly from accidentally pulling aggro from a boss, many of whom are quite capable of dishing out massive damage.

When you are at 100% HP, it is impossible to die from a single source of damage. This is why my Controllers get *really* nervous when they lose even as little as 10% of their HP; all it takes to put them completely out of the fight at that point is one good shot.

[YuriFoxfirega]

Stating again, for the record: I do not have a problem with healing powers. I do, however, have an issue with 'healers', for all of the negative hype they get and the fact that a large chunk of them actually deserve it. In my experience*.

You play MMOs as long as I have, and you start to quickly pick up on what is, and is not, necessary. If you're good at adapting and learning information, you do this quickly. If you're poor in this area or just lack reading comprehension, you often take longer if you ever learn at all. The big fun point? Every game is different on what is, and is not, required.

A healer is not required in CoH/V. You can do any content in the game without the ill-conceived notion that you need a healer to get by. What you do need is at least one or two support characters, and most preferably ones that are competent.

Some support sets contain heals. Some more then others. But those all just tools that they have, and not something that they should be defined as. You don't call a Tanker a Tauntbot, for example, as that's discrediting to what that tanker actually brings to your team (a form of control, and some [albeit light] additional damage). Why, then, are we perfectly fine with pigeon-holing support characters into 'Healers' and 'Not-Healers'? And stating that one is more important then the other (if you haven't, then this particular comment is most likely not directed at you - such is the nature of generalizations)? They're not.

That's my only problem with the term 'healer'. It's a stupid, unnecessary term. And completely inaccurate to the ATs that it's often applied to.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
What you do need is at least one or two support characters, and most preferably ones that are competent.

[/ QUOTE ]
And even that much is iffy. I've been on a decent four-blaster PuG once, no support necessary, much less a healer specifically.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you do need is at least one or two support characters, and most preferably ones that are competent.

[/ QUOTE ]
And even that much is iffy. I've been on a decent four-blaster PuG once, no support necessary, much less a healer specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

True enough. It was more in the context of 'if you need any support at all', then as an iron-clad absolute. One or two support characters is a really good idea, as is at least one person to control aggro (tank, controller, mastermind, dominator, a really oddly built scrapper or blaster, the right defender or corrupter...) is also probably a good idea, and certainly a lot of damage will make things go along pretty quickly if they're properly taken care of.

Then again, it all breaks down to player skill. Skilled players > specific AT or powerset.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]

5/9 (yes, i was wrong about Emp's total number of +regen buffs, didn't account for AB). Resurrect isn't a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing 100% of HP and restoring the dead to life isn't a heal? :)

OK.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5/9 (yes, i was wrong about Emp's total number of +regen buffs, didn't account for AB). Resurrect isn't a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing 100% of HP and restoring the dead to life isn't a heal? :)

OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll up and read some more. It won't hurt, I promise.

[boardthug]

Oh, I don't know if I'd say that, Luminara. I've been skimming this thread for a while now, and it has indeed been quite painful.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I don't know if I'd say that, Luminara. I've been skimming this thread for a while now, and it has indeed been quite painful.

[/ QUOTE ]

All we need is a well placed statement to get the lock in. Then your pain will end.

[Battlebabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".

[/ QUOTE ]

This really is the most stupid generalization I have ever seen anbody on these boards use. Try to keep your arguments to rational thought in the future.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
[ QUOTE ]
Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".

[/ QUOTE ]

This really is the most stupid generalization I have ever seen anbody on these boards use. Try to keep your arguments to rational thought in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mad sarcasm for the win, unless that other massive generalization you made was serious. Anyway, it isn't actually a generalization. There is (shock!) a best way to build a team. There is a best way to build the characters on that team. And those of us who number-grind towards that goal, rather than airily speculate towards it based on "experience," realize that heals are the least effective damage mitigation in the game.

Can't argue with numbers.

[Battlebabe]

Calling everybody who looks for a "healer" as ignorant, incompetent or lazy is indeed a generalization on a grand scale, and a blatant attempt to insult in this case. It is lame and shameful.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling everybody who looks for a "healer" as ignorant, incompetent or lazy is indeed a generalization on a grand scale, and a blatant attempt to insult in this case. It is lame and shameful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking for a healer in this game is ignorant by definition. It's like going into a hardware store and asking for a tool. Or a bag of potato chips.

It is insulting.
It is shortsighted.
It shows a lack of knowledge in the game, and a lack of interest in gaining that knowledge. (If that's not ignorant, I don't know what it.)
It demonstrates a person has an inflexible mindset.

In short, a person wanting a "healer" is a poor player.

[Battlebabe]

Not really. They may well be looking for somebady that has a means of restoring hp to the team. Buffs and debuffs do not prevent every scrap of damage from getting to members of the team. There is nothing wrong with wanting somebody who can replace lost hp when it happens, and it will happen. No team ever takes zero damage, ever. Some damage will get through at some point. It is just a matter of how much damage will land on the members of that particular team. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to rely on greens for hp replacement. A team may have good buffs, debuffs and controls, and still want somebody to heal lost hp.

The way that people on these boards just have a fit at the thought of anybody not wanting to play their way, by avoiding the very thought of ever using a heal power is just this side of amazing. I know some just hate the way people use the term "healer", but for others the very thought of a team being out there with a person who will use a power of some sort to restore lost hp is more than they can possibly tolerate. It really is amazing, and this is the only mmo that I know of that has this problem with the fringe kook anti-healers.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5/9 (yes, i was wrong about Emp's total number of +regen buffs, didn't account for AB). Resurrect isn't a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing 100% of HP and restoring the dead to life isn't a heal? :)

OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll up and read some more. It won't hurt, I promise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read what you wrote above. It's the same tortured logic that the anti-healer forces have been using for 5 years. Empathy is a set focused on restoring life, i.e. healing. That doesn't mean that that is all it can do, it's just what it's focused on.

But that doesn't work in the anti-healer playbook so we take ridiculous logical leaps to avoid calling something that heals a heal.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5/9 (yes, i was wrong about Emp's total number of +regen buffs, didn't account for AB). Resurrect isn't a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Healing 100% of HP and restoring the dead to life isn't a heal? :)

OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll up and read some more. It won't hurt, I promise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read what you wrote above. It's the same tortured logic that the anti-healer forces have been using for 5 years. Empathy is a set focused on restoring life, i.e. healing. That doesn't mean that that is all it can do, it's just what it's focused on.

But that doesn't work in the anti-healer playbook so we take ridiculous logical leaps to avoid calling something that heals a heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm what you'd call an "anti-healer", but I explained why the Rez is a heal. Twice. I even asked her to go back and read my post, but it appears that never happened.

Or I'm ignored. /shrug Doesn't really matter to me in the end.

[Oedipus_Tex]

I can't resist stirring the pot.

Some say "healer" isn't an adequate term, and to use "Defender" instead.

This leads me to ask: does a Trick Arrow Defender share more in common with a Defender, with a Controller, or with a "healer"? And which category does a Controller with an /Empathy secondary fall into--does the word "Controller" sum up what the team is getting when they invest in adding this hero to their team?

[apple_eater]

One of these again? The word is "empath", everyone understands, nobody gets their feeling hurt.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't resist stirring the pot.

Some say "healer" isn't an adequate term, and to use "Defender" instead.

This leads me to ask: does a Trick Arrow Defender share more in common with a Defender, with a Controller, or with a "healer"? And which category does a Controller with an /Empathy secondary fall into--does the word "Controller" sum up what the team is getting when they invest in adding this hero to their team?

[/ QUOTE ]

Support.

[Biostem]

[ QUOTE ]
One of these again? The word is "empath", everyone understands, nobody gets their feeling hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, just sometimes, I want a person on my team that is good at restoring HP. Empathy is probably the most often thought of powerset for this, but thermal, dark, kin, and maybe even storm can satisfy this.

Whether or not some people think the function of restoring lost HP is unnecessary or undesirable, others do not. For those people, this function is very much in demand. When this happens, they ask for a healer...

[Boomie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling everybody who looks for a "healer" as ignorant, incompetent or lazy is indeed a generalization on a grand scale, and a blatant attempt to insult in this case. It is lame and shameful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking for a healer in this game is ignorant by definition. It's like going into a hardware store and asking for a tool. Or a bag of potato chips.

It is insulting.
It is shortsighted.
It shows a lack of knowledge in the game, and a lack of interest in gaining that knowledge. (If that's not ignorant, I don't know what it.)
It demonstrates a person has an inflexible mindset.

In short, a person wanting a "healer" is a poor player.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly.

[YuriFoxfirega]

I'm sort of confused.

People seem to be misconstruing the word 'ignorance'.

It's not a bad word, people. It's just used (like many other words, such as 'love', 'hate', and 'bacon') poorly by people that don't fully grasp that the word itself is only valid in that context because it's been misused by so many people over the years it's assumed that's how it's supposed to be used.

Newbies are ignorant. People that don't want to learn are ignorant. People that know and don't care can be considered functionally ignorant for all intents and purposes.

Newbies can be taught, and hopefully in the most polite, respectful, and informative manner possible so as not to hurt their feelings. Newbies are people, too, they're just learning the ropes. That's all. We're all newbies in relation to some factor of the game - it's our job as quality players (I'm assuming that at least half the people reading this can say they're a 'quality' player, at any rate) to make the learning experience as smooth as possible for new people, and correct them on the proper terminology - and why it's used instead of other things - so that they don't feel as awkward in the community, or catch heat for just plain not knowing any better.

People that don't want to learn should be informed in a similarly polite, and respectful manner. Eventually, it will stick, and they may or may not choose to actually use what they've learned. It's their choice, though, and they should be allowed to make it.

People that know, and don't care that they're using improper terminology and inefficient tactics? Are both lazy and ignorant, and perhaps incompetent (not always, though), and while they should be educated as to this fact in as polite a manner possible, but without forcing it. They can and should be allowed to choose to be a lazy, ignorant person.

...For the record, I rarely, if ever, practice what I preach. If you're going to make a comment about hypocrisy, please don't. I'm well aware, and frankly my dear, I just don't give a damn. :eek:

Take that as you will. :D

[Lacrymosa]

Or a player requesting a "healer", may play games like; FF series, WoW, Diablo, Lineage, Guild Wars, etc. We all know what people mean when they say their looking for a healer. Somone who mitigates lost life points. You can call the class what you wish, but veteran players know a healer AT when they see one. 02 boost is a great heal with a decent CD(4 secs). An average player knows that defenders buff/debuff and you guessed it heal. So, including Storm, thats 5 sets that come with a heal. Leaving 4 other sets that debuff/buff. One would assume when someone asks for a "healer" they mean the 5 I mentioned (Emp, DarkM,Kins,Storm,Rad).

If you find it insulting, than sour grapes for you, the world keeps going on. If you find it shortsighted, then you have a huge problem having something to do with either your pride or your ego. And if you think its "inflexible"....oh wait your playing an MMO with rules...

Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer is doing just that, asking for what some might consider a healer, he isn't labeling the entire defender populous Healers. "Sometimes the ego of a few need to be out weighed by the needs of many."

[YuriFoxfirega]

How is it not shortsighted? I looked it up just now to be sure.

'Unable to understand things deeply'. 'Not given careful consideration'. 'Lacking foresight or scope'.

I'd say ignoring every other tool that the person in question (once again, more then just defenders can fill the Support role) to focus on one tool (healing), when a lot of those tools can prevent the need for healing when applied properly is rather short-sighted, and says more about the people that stamp their foot and try to claim that it's not a silly notion in this game.

And that's all it is. A silly, misused term that's rather ignorant ('destitute of knowledge';'unconscious or unaware';'foolish or silly') in it's attempt to pigeonhole (stereotype) entire sections of the playerbase.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer is doing just that, asking for what some might consider a healer, he isn't labeling the entire defender populous Healers. "Sometimes the ego of a few need to be out weighed by the needs of many."

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm tired of being nice about it. No, it isn't "doing just that." Usually, it's some nimwit kicking my Dark Defender/Corr/MM off a team because they saw a "healor" in broadcast. After that happening a half-dozen times, I get sick of the idiocy.

When a low-level player on my team mentions healers, I give them a polite introduction into why buffs are more useful, and how healing is far more limited in CoX than in most games.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer...

[/ QUOTE ]
... thinks healing is better than buffing, debuffing, and hard and soft control. Better enough to overtly discriminate in team building.

... is occasionally right. Though on such occasions, they tend to use the word "empath" instead of "healer," e.g. Hamidon raids.

... usually is a perma-newb who will stubbornly continue to believe their team wipes are caused by needing more healing. Plenty of people out there will never figure out that this game is different from whatever RPG they think they're playing.

=====

In fairness, I overtly discriminate in team building, too. I actively recruit debuffers over controllers, buffers, and healers. If you're Trick Arrow, Radiation Emission, Storm Summoning, or Dark Miasma, I want you on my team now. Empath? Meh. If I can't find anyone else, fine. Hope you can blast.

But at least I realize it's personal preference -- matching teammates up with my own playstyle, and rewarding players with less popular builds who might be having trouble finding other teams. It's not because I think debuffing is so much better than other forms of mitigation.

Well, maybe just a little better. :)

[Transhade]

I applaud Rigel for acknowleding that his pereference as opposed to the general healer hate that gets placed on most competent empathy defenders.

[YuriFoxfirega]

I still don't hate Empathy/* or */Empathy characters. :/ I have one myself. And a */Pain Corrupter.

Still find the term 'healer' ridiculously inaccurate, though.

[Battlebabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer...

[/ QUOTE ]
... thinks healing is better than buffing, debuffing, and hard and soft control. Better enough to overtly discriminate in team building.

... is occasionally right. Though on such occasions, they tend to use the word "empath" instead of "healer," e.g. Hamidon raids.

... usually is a perma-newb who will stubbornly continue to believe their team wipes are caused by needing more healing. Plenty of people out there will never figure out that this game is different from whatever RPG they think they're playing.

=====

In fairness, I overtly discriminate in team building, too. I actively recruit debuffers over controllers, buffers, and healers. If you're Trick Arrow, Radiation Emission, Storm Summoning, or Dark Miasma, I want you on my team now. Empath? Meh. If I can't find anyone else, fine. Hope you can blast.

But at least I realize it's personal preference -- matching teammates up with my own playstyle, and rewarding players with less popular builds who might be having trouble finding other teams. It's not because I think debuffing is so much better than other forms of mitigation.

Well, maybe just a little better. :)

[/ QUOTE ]



Or maybe they already have plenty of buffs and debuffs, and are running invincible missions, which can make having a person with a heal power very welcome, and it may just darned well be transfusion that they are looking for. Quite likely they just want a defender/controller who can throw out some hp. It is a nice thing to have, and not unwelcome. When somebody asks for a healer they don't necessarily need an empath. I have given a shout looking for somebody with a heal power when the team had damage mitigation but no heal powers.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer...

[/ QUOTE ]
... thinks healing is better than buffing, debuffing, and hard and soft control. Better enough to overtly discriminate in team building.

... is occasionally right. Though on such occasions, they tend to use the word "empath" instead of "healer," e.g. Hamidon raids.

... usually is a perma-newb who will stubbornly continue to believe their team wipes are caused by needing more healing. Plenty of people out there will never figure out that this game is different from whatever RPG they think they're playing.

=====

In fairness, I overtly discriminate in team building, too. I actively recruit debuffers over controllers, buffers, and healers. If you're Trick Arrow, Radiation Emission, Storm Summoning, or Dark Miasma, I want you on my team now. Empath? Meh. If I can't find anyone else, fine. Hope you can blast.

But at least I realize it's personal preference -- matching teammates up with my own playstyle, and rewarding players with less popular builds who might be having trouble finding other teams. It's not because I think debuffing is so much better than other forms of mitigation.

Well, maybe just a little better. :)

[/ QUOTE ]



Or maybe they already have plenty of buffs and debuffs, and are running invincible missions, which can make having a person with a heal power very welcome, and it may just darned well be transfusion that they are looking for. Quite likely they just want a defender/controller who can throw out some hp. It is a nice thing to have, and not unwelcome. When somebody asks for a healer they don't necessarily need an empath. I have given a shout looking for somebody with a heal power when the team had damage mitigation but no heal powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short of Hamidon and the high-end strikeforces, I have yet to see a situation in this game where more buffs/debuffs would not be preferable to heals.

If you've capped +DEF, +RES, and the equivalent debuffs on the enemy, and you still need heals, you're doing it wrong.

[Folonius]

[ QUOTE ]

People seem to be misconstruing the word 'ignorance'.

It's not a bad word, people. It's just used (like many other words, such as 'love', 'hate', and 'bacon') poorly by people that don't fully grasp that the word itself is only valid in that context because it's been misused by so many people over the years it's assumed that's how it's supposed to be used.

Newbies are ignorant. People that don't want to learn are ignorant. People that know and don't care can be considered functionally ignorant for all intents and purposes.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your half right ... People who don't know how to do something are ignorant of that something. I don't know how to perform open heart surgery, so I'm ignorant of that.

[ QUOTE ]

*snip*People that know and don't care can be considered *snip*


[/ QUOTE ]
That is the definition of stupid. Those two words, ignorance and stupidity, are often thought to be mean, evil words when most of the time they fit. If you think about it, everyone on this planet is, at one point in their life, ignorant and/or stupid.

[Battlebabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly keep in mind that the person requesting for a healer...

[/ QUOTE ]
... thinks healing is better than buffing, debuffing, and hard and soft control. Better enough to overtly discriminate in team building.

... is occasionally right. Though on such occasions, they tend to use the word "empath" instead of "healer," e.g. Hamidon raids.

... usually is a perma-newb who will stubbornly continue to believe their team wipes are caused by needing more healing. Plenty of people out there will never figure out that this game is different from whatever RPG they think they're playing.

=====

In fairness, I overtly discriminate in team building, too. I actively recruit debuffers over controllers, buffers, and healers. If you're Trick Arrow, Radiation Emission, Storm Summoning, or Dark Miasma, I want you on my team now. Empath? Meh. If I can't find anyone else, fine. Hope you can blast.

But at least I realize it's personal preference -- matching teammates up with my own playstyle, and rewarding players with less popular builds who might be having trouble finding other teams. It's not because I think debuffing is so much better than other forms of mitigation.

Well, maybe just a little better. :)

[/ QUOTE ]



Or maybe they already have plenty of buffs and debuffs, and are running invincible missions, which can make having a person with a heal power very welcome, and it may just darned well be transfusion that they are looking for. Quite likely they just want a defender/controller who can throw out some hp. It is a nice thing to have, and not unwelcome. When somebody asks for a healer they don't necessarily need an empath. I have given a shout looking for somebody with a heal power when the team had damage mitigation but no heal powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short of Hamidon and the high-end strikeforces, I have yet to see a situation in this game where more buffs/debuffs would not be preferable to heals.

If you've capped +DEF, +RES, and the equivalent debuffs on the enemy, and you still need heals, you're doing it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they don't want to wait for just the right defender who can cap everything with just the right amound of buffs and debuffs, and a frickin heal of any sort will cap their hp just fine and dandy. There is no reason on Earth to just avoid heals for the sake of avoiding them, and debuffs with a heal is a nice quick way to get rolling without advertising for a ________ (insert your desired favorite AT here).

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
02 boost is a great heal with a decent CD(4 secs).

[/ QUOTE ]
((0.o))
...
My Stormie has O2 Boost, but it's just as much for the stun and end drain protection. IMO it's really rather mediocre as a heal. So if O2 Boost is a great heal, then my Dark Miasma users must have a heal that is nigh-godlike.

i play many support characters, but not healers. While i tend to favor debuffing types, i have alts with every support set, including Empathy. None of my characters are healers because it is the least significant aspect of their capabilities, so it's silly to call them that. i also don't call Tankers knockback resisters.

Just my 02 cents.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Short of Hamidon and the high-end strikeforces, I have yet to see a situation in this game where more buffs/debuffs would not be preferable to heals.

If you've capped +DEF, +RES, and the equivalent debuffs on the enemy, and you still need heals, you're doing it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they don't want to wait for just the right defender who can cap everything with just the right amound of buffs and debuffs, and a frickin heal of any sort will cap their hp just fine and dandy. There is no reason on Earth to just avoid heals for the sake of avoiding them, and debuffs with a heal is a nice quick way to get rolling without advertising for a ________ (insert your desired favorite AT here).

[/ QUOTE ]

You persist in your delusion of claiming I avoid heals. I could claim, and with more validity, that you are avoiding buffs. When I look for a defender/controller/MM/Corruptor, I am looking for heals. And buffs. And debuffs. And blasts. And control. And soaking ability. And more.

But YOU are defending the term "healer." You would exclude a TA player, or a Kin who skipped Transfusion. Exclude a FF or Traps character. Sonic or Ice. Sets with powerful abilities that could shift the tide of battle before the heals (that don't help much against alphas or lag) you so desire.

You are excluding, not me. You are promoting the use of imprecise terminology from other games, a trait that demonstrates either an unwillingness or inability to adapt to a system that is not the triad of tank-healer-dps.

[Oedipus_Tex]

I like that people are talking about the undesirableness of "healers" as if no of us has ever gone into the sewers before. Do some quick math on the value of a heal versus the value of a buff at that level, and tell me that there aren't occasions when a "healer" is highly desirable if not outright required to keep the team running. Evem if healing becomes gradually less needed as the game progresses, it doesn't start out that way.

[Wicked_Wendy]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't classify anyone by anything except archetype when I look at broadcasts. I've been on too many teams lately where the leader picks up a "healer" and the team falls apart because everyone thought this player rolled an empath.

Usually when I'm leading my own teams I skip over the "healer" broadcasts because anymore it doesn't tell me anything. If that same person was to say "lvl XX archetype" they stand a much better chance of getting picked up because it narrows down what you can expect from them. As Virtual_Gamer pointed out, a "healer" could even refer to a scrapper. Again, very misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]


Okay WHEN I even bother to broadcast I have a Macro set up:

XX level Ill/EMP Controller LFT Heals, Rez, Buffs along with Stealth and recall friend.

I do this with almost all of my characters varying the message depending on the AT. That way any team leader knows WHO I am, WHAT I am, and WHAT I offer the team. My search comments are pretty much identical to that as well.

Oh and while I also play, Stormies, Thermals, Etc can someone please tell me when EMPS got such a bad name? and if so why do I normally get 2 to 3 BLIND invites a night asking me to join someone's team? A GOOD Emp (Defender or Controller) offers a lot more than just heals (at least they better). Next time your battling a 52 level or better AV start screaming for Fort or Clear Mind to your Stormie and see how fast you get it LOL

[_____]

[ QUOTE ]
You are promoting the use of imprecise terminology from other games, a trait that demonstrates either an unwillingness or inability to adapt to a system that is not the triad of tank-healer-dps.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're awfully worked up about what amounts to little more than a term of convenience

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that people are talking about the undesirableness of "healers" as if no of us has ever gone into the sewers before. Do some quick math on the value of a heal versus the value of a buff at that level, and tell me that there aren't occasions when a "healer" is highly desirable if not outright required to keep the team running. Evem if healing becomes gradually less needed as the game progresses, it doesn't start out that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't look at just one part of the game in a vacuum. That's somewhat silly, especially when considering a fair number of Support (Radiation Infection, Thernal Radiation, Dark Miasma, Kinetics, Empathy/Pain Domination, Storm Summoning, Poison) all get a power with a Heal component before level 4, and a number after that fact (Traps, Cold Domination*) get something to affect HP values as well before 20. Infact, out of the entire game, only three sets (Force Fields, Sonic Resonance, Trick Arrow) focus entirely on non-heal forms of support and mitigation.

Is it really worth excluding a whopping 3 sets, to use your pet stereotypical term? Especially considering that even on a typical Sewers run that a Force Field or Sonic Resonance Defender can protect an entire team from taking as much or any damage at all, even with the lack of slots at those levels? Fun fact here, is that as far as some Buffs go (I can verify for a fact the values in Force Field and Sonic Resonance), they provide the exact same base values regardless of your level. It's only what you have slotted that really matters. A factor of 15% additional defense (Cold Domination, Force Field) to multiple areas (including positionals) is a major buff for some sets, whereas a 20% Resistance buff may not seem like much, but it may be enough to keep your preferred aggro-management specialist (That's a fluff term I'm using only specifically for this discussion; In the sewers, it doesn't really matter who, if anyone, is tanking) up long enough to survive the alpha and pop a green. Or for someone with a heal to prop him up (fairly good odds on that if you recruit enough support).

And what about the Villain game? Why do we automatically pretend that 'healer' mentality doesn't exist redside? Especially with the addition of Pain Domination to that part of the game. That's foolishly shortsighted (Yay, new favorite term!) for making a sweeping generalization about how bloody important heals are to the game.

They're not. They're a tool, same as any other that a Support character gets. And they're nowhere near as special, or as much of a force multiplier. I prefer to recruit based on what an entire AT brings me, not on what one tiny aspect of what they do is. If I have a team mostly full of blasters and one lone tanker or scrapper, I'm going to probably prefer a Controller. If I have a team of mostly brutes and dominators, I'm likely going to think about adding a corrupter. If my team consists almost entirely of SoAs and stalkers, I may actually prefer a Mastermind. If my team is mostly melee-oriented, picking up a defender seems the best choice.

But in a pinch? It doesn't matter, I'll grab someone and make it work. My preference of support is not necessary, and neither is healing.

(*Clarification: Frostworks technically affects HP values, and mitigation values, directly by increasing the pool available. The more HP you have, the more valuable every point of Resistance, Defense, and Regeneration you get has.)

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that people are talking about the undesirableness of "healers" as if no of us has ever gone into the sewers before. Do some quick math on the value of a heal versus the value of a buff at that level, and tell me that there aren't occasions when a "healer" is highly desirable if not outright required to keep the team running.

[/ QUOTE ]
Deflection Shield and toggle debuffs neuter Vahz. Sewers suck for XP anyway.

And the only reason buffs aren't good at low levels are because they're not unlocked yet.

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]


And the only reason buffs aren't good at low levels are because they're not unlocked yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that was the point of the statement.

Until level 12, every Empath is a healer whether they like it or not :D

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And the only reason buffs aren't good at low levels are because they're not unlocked yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that was the point of the statement.

Until level 12, every Empath is a healer whether they like it or not :D

[/ QUOTE ]
A "healer" who also has a primary/secondary as well. Before (and after) level 12 my Empaths are also shooters or controllers in addition to having heals. It's almost like they get more than one powerset, and those additional powersets do a useful amount of damage/control in the early game and even the late game if used well.

[Shahadat]

[ QUOTE ]
Good Empaths do far less healing than buffing. At least that's been my experience when teaming with good Empaths. i've been on teams with mediocre to bad Empaths that quit because the buffs and debuffs from other team members made healing largely unneeded beyond patching up minor damage. Many of them had taken the Medicine pool in place of non-healing powers like Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost and Clear Mind. Others has some of those powers but would only use them after repeated requests.

i've also teamed with good Empaths who would toss Clear Mind on debuffers when fighting mezzing opponents, throw Fortitude on any teammate who tended to receive extra aggro and generally supported the team by buffing those who needed it and tossing out a heal when required. They didn't sulk and eventually quit when they had no reason to generate green numbers, instead they helped turn the team into a juggernaut.

Empathy in the hands of a good player is not primarily a healing set by the mid levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you so much for posting this. I am in complete agreement with you. I love playing my empath. But I don't just heal. I have Buffs, which I use as much as possible (always), and I do enjoy getting to use my secondary. Now are there occasions when the "Oh $&!+" heal is needed? Yes, but not all that often, and that is fine with me. Yes I am a "healor," but I don't advertise as such. LVL 50 DEF LFT.

[Oedipus_Tex]

If you define "healer" as someone who stands in the back and only heals, yes healers suck.

If you define "healer" as someone who is pretty good at "healing" then they are not bad to have around.

The word "Defender" doesn't cover it because a Controller can very easily fit the role of "healer."

No one complains about the word "bubbler."

We all have too much free time.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that was the point of the statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
The statement was:
[ QUOTE ]
a "healer" is highly desirable if not outright required

[/ QUOTE ]
(On lolsewer teams.) The poster framed it as a "heals vs. buffs" question, so I had to say a little something about buffs. But I mainly wanted to talk about debuffs, which are already way better than heals even on lolsewer teams.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
But I mainly wanted to talk about debuffs, which are already way better than heals even on lolsewer teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since everyone knows a Defender armed with Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow and a single target blast is going to make the team completely survivable. Nevermind that, at the time the sewers are initially entered, said Defender probably only has Flash and Glue. (I'm giving the best case scenario here and skipping Entangling Arrow altogether).

[Macro_Ninja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that was the point of the statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
The statement was:
[ QUOTE ]
a "healer" is highly desirable if not outright required

[/ QUOTE ]
(On lolsewer teams.) The poster framed it as a "heals vs. buffs" question, so I had to say a little something about buffs. But I mainly wanted to talk about debuffs, which are already way better than heals even on lolsewer teams.

[/ QUOTE ]Are healers needed Yes and No. It all depends on the team. Tank and scrapper teams with heals not so much. Ones with squisher arch-types or none healing tanks/srappers may need one. It should not be no team every needs a healer. That is looking for trouble becuse it all depends on what your fighting and a ton of other factores so like i sayed. Are healers needed Yes and No. :)

[Rigel_Kent]

Glue Arrow's nice, but the real best case scenario would be Darkest Night and Radiation Infection.

[Atheism]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I mainly wanted to talk about debuffs, which are already way better than heals even on lolsewer teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since everyone knows a Defender armed with Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow and a single target blast is going to make the team completely survivable. Nevermind that, at the time the sewers are initially entered, said Defender probably only has Flash and Glue. (I'm giving the best case scenario here and skipping Entangling Arrow altogether).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

[Battlebabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Short of Hamidon and the high-end strikeforces, I have yet to see a situation in this game where more buffs/debuffs would not be preferable to heals.

If you've capped +DEF, +RES, and the equivalent debuffs on the enemy, and you still need heals, you're doing it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they don't want to wait for just the right defender who can cap everything with just the right amound of buffs and debuffs, and a frickin heal of any sort will cap their hp just fine and dandy. There is no reason on Earth to just avoid heals for the sake of avoiding them, and debuffs with a heal is a nice quick way to get rolling without advertising for a ________ (insert your desired favorite AT here).

[/ QUOTE ]

You persist in your delusion of claiming I avoid heals. I could claim, and with more validity, that you are avoiding buffs. When I look for a defender/controller/MM/Corruptor, I am looking for heals. And buffs. And debuffs. And blasts. And control. And soaking ability. And more.

But YOU are defending the term "healer." You would exclude a TA player, or a Kin who skipped Transfusion. Exclude a FF or Traps character. Sonic or Ice. Sets with powerful abilities that could shift the tide of battle before the heals (that don't help much against alphas or lag) you so desire.

You are excluding, not me. You are promoting the use of imprecise terminology from other games, a trait that demonstrates either an unwillingness or inability to adapt to a system that is not the triad of tank-healer-dps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that they may want a person with healing abilities and may be just fine for buffs and debuffs. They would no doubt be happy with extra buffs or debuffs. I have sought people with a heal power of some sort more than once.

You speak as one of those who immediately falls into a gran mal siezure when the word heal is even mentioned. These boards are filled with such haters of the word heal or healer. It just defies logic. This is the only game where I have seen such anti-heal fanatics.

[Captain_Freak]

Im finding that people just use 'healer' in lieu of 'support type' or defender.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but now we're promoting science fiction. Glue Arrow is an AoE slow that provides -20% recharge. This is the same amount of -Recharge as, for example, an Ice Controller's Frostbite. It's not useless, but it is not going to fill the void for a low level team that is taking lots of collateral damage and would like for their as-yet unshielded Scrappers to stop dying.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
You speak as one of those who immediately falls into a gran mal siezure when the word heal is even mentioned. These boards are filled with such haters of the word heal or healer. It just defies logic. This is the only game where I have seen such anti-heal fanatics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that, how I've spent so much time playing Empathy Defenders despite hating heals violently. We don't hate the word heal. We hate the word "healer" coming out of the mouth of those who are ignorant and resistant to accepting that debuffs>buffs>heals.

[Master_Armantus]

"Healers" mainly irk me when they spam advertise in broadcast for selfish gains. Inevitably when I see one 'lvl XX healer' broadcast, 2 or 3 more pop up from others right behind it. People realize that team leaders go crazy about picking up a healer and even if their build has only 1 so-so single target heal with an average recharge, they pass themselves off as "healers" and they're almost guaranteed to get picked up in the next minute, depending where they broadcast.

I personally couldn't care if a player has heals or not. Defenders buff and debuff with their primary power set while controllers control with theirs. This is what I look for in broadcast, a player's AT. The "healer" broadcasts communicate to me that those players believe they have a sole function to heal and nothing more.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, as to why people get the idea that having a healer is important early on, it's because early on a healer, *is* extremely effective. I'm sure someone can come up with an obscure build to try to prove this wrong, but that fist run through the sewers is made ten times easier if someone can heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

and its made even easier than that if you bring Force field defenders instead for the stacking 40% toxic resists.

Or cold for the defense buffs that make mob just plain miss a lot.

Game. set. match.

[Lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really worth excluding a whopping 3 sets, to use your pet stereotypical term?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its an MMO, the term go "Tank" or go "scrap" are both stereotypical, its not a means to offend, but used in short. Helps people just get to the work need be done. If I ask for a "healer", I'm asking for someone with at the very least, one heal. If you've been playing the game for more than a month, than you would know that most if not all "healers" come with debuffs/buffs. But as I posted before, its all a matter of wanting heals. I know an emp will come with RA's, Fort and CM, I know a Kins will come with FC, SB, and Transf, you see where I'm going with this?. As a vereran I know what I mean when I ask for a "healer" on the team.

If you don't like being called a healer, then may I advise some serious time with a psychologist, someone is in need of a hug or a cookie. You could also of course try to define what a healer is. You could look at it as; a healer is someone who makes sure his/her team is kept "healthy", making sure everyone is safe and patched up accordingly. Either way your nitpicking something that has been encrusted into the annals of MMO's.

[Catwhoorg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but now we're promoting science fiction. Glue Arrow is an AoE slow that provides -20% recharge. This is the same amount of -Recharge as, for example, an Ice Controller's Frostbite. It's not useless, but it is not going to fill the void for a low level team that is taking lots of collateral damage and would like for their as-yet unshielded Scrappers to stop dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it does keep the people of of melee range of blasters... That alone is a huge survivability boost.

[Barata]

I generally agree that preventing damage is better than healing it afterwards. What I've seen in-game though is that many times, when you have that damage mitigation on a team and nobody's taking any damage...... you turn up the difficulty until people do start taking damage, making heals very welcome. :)

[Prof_Backfire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it really worth excluding a whopping 3 sets, to use your pet stereotypical term?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its an MMO, the term go "Tank" or go "scrap" are both stereotypical, its not a means to offend, but used in short. Helps people just get to the work need be done. If I ask for a "healer", I'm asking for someone with at the very least, one heal. If you've been playing the game for more than a month, than you would know that most if not all "healers" come with debuffs/buffs. But as I posted before, its all a matter of wanting heals. I know an emp will come with RA's, Fort and CM, I know a Kins will come with FC, SB, and Transf, you see where I'm going with this?. As a vereran I know what I mean when I ask for a "healer" on the team.

If you don't like being called a healer, then may I advise some serious time with a psychologist, someone is in need of a hug or a cookie. You could also of course try to define what a healer is. You could look at it as; a healer is someone who makes sure his/her team is kept "healthy", making sure everyone is safe and patched up accordingly. Either way your nitpicking something that has been encrusted into the annals of MMO's.

[/ QUOTE ]
At this point, you really should realise that 'healer' is not a useful term in this game. Plenty of support sets lack heals but can do just as much, if not more, than an Emp or Kin.

[Steampunkette]

Y'wana know what's almost infinitely better than a 'Healer'?

A Controller. Specifically an Earth Controller with a tiny bit of cover.

Drop quicksand (no need for line of sight) then Earthquake(No need for Line of Sight) Then Volcanic Gasses (Anyone noticing a pattern here?)

The Controller has a 0.00% chance of getting hurt unless you're fighting Igneous, War Wolves, or Carnie Strongmen.

Meanwhile he's got the aggro and the enemy has a 20% to hit debuff when they -aren't- held or falling on their backsides. So pop around that corner for Stalagmites followed quicky by Stone Cages.

Congratulations. You've just lowered their defenses with Earthquake to ensure that your AoE Stun hits them all, making you almost impervious to retaliation. Then you dropped stone cages for added damage. Sure they're not falling on themselves anymore,but they're effectively held by the combination and by the AoE Pulsing Foe Hold.

In charges the group to finish the whole groups off in a bloody massacre.

No need for a Healer.
-Rachel-

[TwilightPhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
I know an emp will come with RA's, Fort and CM, I know a Kins will come with FC, SB, and Transf, you see where I'm going with this?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish the Empaths and, to a far lesser degree Kins, that end up on the same team as I had those guarantees. I remember one nasty PuG where all three Empaths the leader thought we desperately needed all only had Healing Aura, Heal Other, Absorb Pain, Ressurect, and the Medicine pool. All. Three. Of them. We wiped hard on the first mob.

[CDN_Guardian]

[ QUOTE ]

We don't hate the word heal. We hate the word "healer" coming out of the mouth of those who are ignorant and resistant to accepting that debuffs>buffs>heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[Red Valkyrja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it really worth excluding a whopping 3 sets, to use your pet stereotypical term?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its an MMO, the term go "Tank" or go "scrap" are both stereotypical, its not a means to offend, but used in short. Helps people just get to the work need be done. If I ask for a "healer", I'm asking for someone with at the very least, one heal. If you've been playing the game for more than a month, than you would know that most if not all "healers" come with debuffs/buffs. But as I posted before, its all a matter of wanting heals. I know an emp will come with RA's, Fort and CM, I know a Kins will come with FC, SB, and Transf, you see where I'm going with this?. As a vereran I know what I mean when I ask for a "healer" on the team.

If you don't like being called a healer, then may I advise some serious time with a psychologist, someone is in need of a hug or a cookie. You could also of course try to define what a healer is. You could look at it as; a healer is someone who makes sure his/her team is kept "healthy", making sure everyone is safe and patched up accordingly. Either way your nitpicking something that has been encrusted into the annals of MMO's.

[/ QUOTE ]
At this point, you really should realise that 'healer' is not a useful term in this game. Plenty of support sets lack heals but can do just as much, if not more, than an Emp or Kin.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the Prof said.

As a "veteran" (I assume that's what you meant to say,) you should know by know by now how Defenders and Controllers bristle at the term "healer." Many of us do not like to be defined by a single ability. If you wish to limit yourself by requesting "h3al0rz" that's you prerogative.

When the response to your "We need a healer." tell is "Sorry, not a healer." You'll know why. I tend to avoid teams that 'need a healer' like the plague.

[RabidBrian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

We don't hate the word heal. We hate the word "healer" coming out of the mouth of those who are ignorant and resistant to accepting that debuffs>buffs>heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

level 16 emp/dark defender with only dark blast, all their empathy stuff, AND the medicine pool, named healbot457453257.

Would that NOT be considered a "healer?"

There are "healers" in the game. Thats their play choice.

I think of them in the same way as petless mm's.

[CDN_Guardian]

Yeah, I guess that would be their choice to play that way, and they can deal with the consequences of their decision. I've already stated what it says about them if they honestly believe they are useful to a team.

There is not a single thing in this game a dedicated "healer" can do that a well balanced Empath cannot do as well. The opposite cannot be said.

[Transhade]

And yet a well balanced Empath is a healer I.E. someone who heals.....

[CDN_Guardian]

Thank you for proving your intelligence with that usage of the term.

A well balanced Empath buffs, blasts and heals, in that order of importance. Do you call them a buffer, blaster or healer? I think the simple folk focus on the latter.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's CDN for you, and while he does tend to lack tact and wield the English language like a blunt instrument.. The premise of what he's saying is accurate.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's CDN for you, and while he does tend to lack tact and wield the English language like a blunt instrument.. The premise of what he's saying is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pish-posh. He's totally off-base. Tell you what: you grab your healer, i'll grab my knockback resister, and we'll get some DoTers* to run an ITF. Yeah.
Maybe grab a speed booster** if there's still room.
.
.
.

*Several Scrapper and Blaster attacks have damage over time in addition to the main damage. Obviously, even if it's a minor part of what they do, their main function is to provide DoTs.
**Controllers with Kinetics as their secondary might have other capabilities, but who cares? :p

[Atheism]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually it can. Glue Arrow alone stops a lot of incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but now we're promoting science fiction. Glue Arrow is an AoE slow that provides -20% recharge. This is the same amount of -Recharge as, for example, an Ice Controller's Frostbite. It's not useless, but it is not going to fill the void for a low level team that is taking lots of collateral damage and would like for their as-yet unshielded Scrappers to stop dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the team isn't attacking the slowed mobs, then ya, they will die.

[CDN_Guardian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's CDN for you, and while he does tend to lack tact and wield the English language like a blunt instrument.. The premise of what he's saying is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahah, I like that simile! :p

[CDN_Guardian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's CDN for you, and while he does tend to lack tact and wield the English language like a blunt instrument.. The premise of what he's saying is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pish-posh. He's totally off-base. Tell you what: you grab your healer, i'll grab my knockback resister, and we'll get some DoTers* to run an ITF. Yeah.
Maybe grab a speed booster** if there's still room.
.
.
.

*Several Scrapper and Blaster attacks have damage over time in addition to the main damage. Obviously, even if it's a minor part of what they do, their main function is to provide DoTs.
**Controllers with Kinetics as their secondary might have other capabilities, but who cares? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Good one. I'll bring my DM/Regen knockbackresister.

[YuriFoxfirega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's CDN for you, and while he does tend to lack tact and wield the English language like a blunt instrument.. The premise of what he's saying is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahah, I like that simile! :p

[/ QUOTE ]

What? I'm not gonna sugar coat it. Somehow, I felt it would have been more insulting to soften it, given the subject that inspired it's usage. :3

[CDN_Guardian]

I wouldn't expect you to sugarcoat it. I actually got a laugh out of it. I also couldn't care less if my posts injure someone's delicate feelings, piss them off, etc. etc.

People that refer to Empaths as "healers" are simpletons. 'Nuff said.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

We don't hate the word heal. We hate the word "healer" coming out of the mouth of those who are ignorant and resistant to accepting that debuffs>buffs>heals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

level 16 emp/dark defender with only dark blast, all their empathy stuff, AND the medicine pool, named healbot457453257.

Would that NOT be considered a "healer?"

There are "healers" in the game. Thats their play choice.

I think of them in the same way as petless mm's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I don't delude myself into thinking that my Petless MM is someone that the team absolutely must have to survive. Yes, I have one, and it will probably be rerolled into a Dual Pistol character depending on what sets get paired with it (he has a specific concept, and his secondary is FF). In fact, I haven't ran into any Petless MMs in the game who thought they were really awesome MMs. Mine is practically just a buff-bot that does minimal damage.

And that's the problem most people have with "healers". They believe that they're required, they believe that they're "the best", and too many people agree with them. That Empath/Dark who took only heals AND the medicine pool? Yeah... I won't take that on my team. Unfortunately, someone else will and they will praise them for it.

[CosmicThunderer]

I may not broadcast im a healer but i consider my empath and some of my therms healers. I love healing its why i play empaths and therms. Sometimes people call them selfs damage dealers when they sit and complain they are not getting enough xp while they do nothing and not even move from doorway. I myself dont think my storm summ is a healer but sometimes they get put in that role. I bet you dont say the storm summs are not healers when they O2 ur butt and save ya from dyin hmmm?

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
I may not broadcast im a healer but i consider my empath and some of my therms healers. I love healing its why i play empaths and therms. Sometimes people call them selfs damage dealers when they sit and complain they are not getting enough xp while they do nothing and not even move from doorway. I myself dont think my storm summ is a healer but sometimes they get put in that role. I bet you dont say the storm summs are not healers when they O2 ur butt and save ya from dyin hmmm?

[/ QUOTE ]

Storm Summoners are NOT healers. They are GALEBOTS! Six-slotted Gale, Tornado, and Whirlwind from the Speed Pool makes me the superest galebot evAr. And because I think it helps, and it worked in some other game, I must be right, so I'm going to keep calling myself a galebot instead of a Storm Defender who provides mitigation eleventeen different ways.

[Airhammer]

I was once faced with this many years ago while playing my Rad/Rad defender. I took a blind invite to a team who obviously saw my blue shield and mistakenly thought I was a medical plan of some kind.

I was asked.. R U Healer. I said I have a small AoE heal that will heal for around 240 points which I will gladly spam for you...

OR

I can reduce the mobs chances to hit you and increase you chance to hit them

I can improve the damage of your attacks by about 25% across the board and decrease the enemies by 30%.

I can also slow the mobs Regenaration rate 500% and attack speed by 75%.

I can increase your end recovery 60% and reduce the time you are stunned by 200%

I can hold everything short of a boss in one application.

I can continously debuff mobs defense while attacking and do more damage as well


OR I can heal....

Pick one...

Needless to say they got a lesson in what DEFENDER can do.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't expect you to sugarcoat it. I actually got a laugh out of it. I also couldn't care less if my posts injure someone's delicate feelings, piss them off, etc. etc.

People that refer to Empaths as "healers" are simpletons. 'Nuff said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot calling the kettle black.

[Lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
As a "veteran" (I assume that's what you meant to say,) you should know by know by now how Defenders and Controllers bristle at the term "healer." Many of us do not like to be defined by a single ability. If you wish to limit yourself by requesting "h3al0rz" that's you prerogative.

When the response to your "We need a healer." tell is "Sorry, not a healer." You'll know why. I tend to avoid teams that 'need a healer' like the plague.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a lvl 50 kins toller, a lvl 30 kins defender, a lvl 37 Emp , and a lvl 24 Dark def. I never once got offended at someone calling me a healer. My ego is tamed when it comes to in game phrases that have been used for years now. Like I posted before, Many veterans (I included) know that many of the Def AT's come with a heal and a debuff/buff. And even then people are using the term "heal", their not deeming the populous of defenders healers.

Question, why does it bother you so much?, are you in need of that much pride in a VIDEOGAME that you need to correct someone if they ask for a "healer"?. Get over it, Defenders are the; Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc of City of Heroes. Don't act like this is your first MMO, and if it is, go Wiki MMO's, the general term "healer" is and has been used for years now.

[Lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
Pick one...

[/ QUOTE ]

How about all of the above?. See as I posted before, people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal, basically any means to mitigate lost life points, no one said you had to stop buffing/debuffing, just cause you have one heal.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly! There is no "healer" in this game, and quite honestly the only people who use that term are demonstrating their own ignorance and general stupidity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond tactless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats because tact doesnt work on idiots who think Defenders are "healers"

Only bludgeoning them verbally.

[Rigel_Kent]

I'm tolerant of the word "healer" at face value -- either someone who has a power that heals others, or someone who specializes in such powers, either is fine. That's how the word is used on these forums.

My problem is the word "need" which, in game, just about always accompanies the word "healer," whether it's typed out explicitly or not. Team leaders broadcast they're looking for a healer, teammates ask the leader if they should get another healer, healers broadcast their availability for any team that may be looking for one -- and underlying all of it is that false assumption of need. Which is in itself grounded on the false assumption that heals>buffs>debuffs, as in some other RPGs.

(Though I have discovered a certain naughty joy in using debuffs in presumably heal-centric classic console RPGs. Final Fantasy IV Hardtype for instance gets surprisingly easier when you stat hose enemies with Toad/Mini... but ugh, debuff immune enemies and bosses, what a pain.)

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pick one...

[/ QUOTE ]

How about all of the above?. See as I posted before, people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal, basically any means to mitigate lost life points, no one said you had to stop buffing/debuffing, just cause you have one heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except a good defender or two means your life loss will be so minimal that you can naturally regenerate it, or plain wont be getting hit enough for it to matter.

Heals are for emergencies, thats all. my first 50 was a Thermal controller. she heals once in a blue moon because my shields and melt armors and so forth generally mean mobs rarely scratch my teammates

my second 50 was a Pain domination corruptor. She also rarely if ever heals. She's usually too busy buffing or using Fire Blast to inflict horrific levels of death.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a "veteran" (I assume that's what you meant to say,) you should know by know by now how Defenders and Controllers bristle at the term "healer." Many of us do not like to be defined by a single ability. If you wish to limit yourself by requesting "h3al0rz" that's you prerogative.

When the response to your "We need a healer." tell is "Sorry, not a healer." You'll know why. I tend to avoid teams that 'need a healer' like the plague.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a lvl 50 kins toller, a lvl 30 kins defender, a lvl 37 Emp , and a lvl 24 Dark def. I never once got offended at someone calling me a healer. My ego is tamed when it comes to in game phrases that have been used for years now. Like I posted before, Many veterans (I included) know that many of the Def AT's come with a heal and a debuff/buff. And even then people are using the term "heal", their not deeming the populous of defenders healers.

Question, why does it bother you so much?, are you in need of that much pride in a VIDEOGAME that you need to correct someone if they ask for a "healer"?. Get over it, Defenders are the; Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc of City of Heroes. Don't act like this is your first MMO, and if it is, go Wiki MMO's, the general term "healer" is and has been used for years now.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Healer" bothers me specifically because my Dark Defender was on the receiving end of the Kick button frequently for not being an Empath Healbot. Every team that gave me the boot ignored the fact that they only ever took around 2% of their HP as damage in each fight, no one was close to even dying, and we were steamrolling -- they weren't seeing green number spam, so they kicked me.

The only reason "healer" is such a wide-spread term is because every MMO before this one, and so far after, has had healing be the end all be all when it comes to dealing with damage. Buffs rarely, if ever, stack in other MMOs and buffs are also far weaker (though they last longer, which I'll get to in a moment). In WoW specifically, certain buffs that used to stack no longer do because it was causing people to "trivialize" content. Rogue, Warrior, and Shaman "enrage equivalent" buffs don't stack anymore, and in total, those only boosted damage by around 15%. The amount of additional damage we're able to obtain makes 15% seem tiny by comparison. The very fact that buffs last so long comparatively in their game is so that the heal/buff classes can concentrate on healing. That's it.

I don't care what "many Veterans know". As a veteran, I too know many people don't specifically mean a Heal Bot when they ask for a "healer", but at the same time, I've ran into far too many who want exactly that (specifically when I'm PLAYING my Defenders). As such, anyone advertising themselves as a "healer", or asks for a "healer", will find themselves either not getting on my teams, or will be removed from my teams. I have no tolerance for it, and if it's my team than it's my rules, is it not?

Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.

[pyrite]

Yeah, I've yet to team with anyone calling themselves a "Healer" that the wouldn't of been better off with an empty spot.

I take that back, I've noticed a few people saying they were healers and then playinga Def right.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a "veteran" (I assume that's what you meant to say,) you should know by know by now how Defenders and Controllers bristle at the term "healer." Many of us do not like to be defined by a single ability. If you wish to limit yourself by requesting "h3al0rz" that's you prerogative.

When the response to your "We need a healer." tell is "Sorry, not a healer." You'll know why. I tend to avoid teams that 'need a healer' like the plague.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a lvl 50 kins toller, a lvl 30 kins defender, a lvl 37 Emp , and a lvl 24 Dark def. I never once got offended at someone calling me a healer. My ego is tamed when it comes to in game phrases that have been used for years now. Like I posted before, Many veterans (I included) know that many of the Def AT's come with a heal and a debuff/buff. And even then people are using the term "heal", their not deeming the populous of defenders healers.

Question, why does it bother you so much?, are you in need of that much pride in a VIDEOGAME that you need to correct someone if they ask for a "healer"?. Get over it, Defenders are the; Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc of City of Heroes. Don't act like this is your first MMO, and if it is, go Wiki MMO's, the general term "healer" is and has been used for years now.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Healer" bothers me specifically because my Dark Defender was on the receiving end of the Kick button frequently for not being an Empath Healbot. Every team that gave me the boot ignored the fact that they only ever took around 2% of their HP as damage in each fight, no one was close to even dying, and we were steamrolling -- they weren't seeing green number spam, so they kicked me.

The only reason "healer" is such a wide-spread term is because every MMO before this one, and so far after, has had healing be the end all be all when it comes to dealing with damage. Buffs rarely, if ever, stack in other MMOs and buffs are also far weaker (though they last longer, which I'll get to in a moment). In WoW specifically, certain buffs that used to stack no longer do because it was causing people to "trivialize" content. Rogue, Warrior, and Shaman "enrage equivalent" buffs don't stack anymore, and in total, those only boosted damage by around 15%. The amount of additional damage we're able to obtain makes 15% seem tiny by comparison. The very fact that buffs last so long comparatively in their game is so that the heal/buff classes can concentrate on healing. That's it.

I don't care what "many Veterans know". As a veteran, I too know many people don't specifically mean a Heal Bot when they ask for a "healer", but at the same time, I've ran into far too many who want exactly that (specifically when I'm PLAYING my Defenders). As such, anyone advertising themselves as a "healer", or asks for a "healer", will find themselves either not getting on my teams, or will be removed from my teams. I have no tolerance for it, and if it's my team than it's my rules, is it not?

Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen people limit thier choices for a kin, a rad, a stone tanker, no dark armors, etc. It is not limited to just defenders but defenders get the most bent out of shape.

[Peacemoon]

Well just to quote myself from the other thread:

'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'

[Lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?, So when you see an emp AT or a Thermal, you dont see the similarities in both priest and Shaman like abilities?. Heal, team bufff, aoe heal, revive, etc. Now your just delusional or in denial. I'm guessing you never played a Shaman in not just WoW but in many other MMO's, even in D&D the Shaman healed...Do some research before you go posting just to post.

Where are these ego's coming from? no one cared what defenders where called 4 yrs ago, I smell some elitist players hitting CoH, but I digress, you dont like being called a healer then sour grapes for you friend, if your bothered by an IN GAME phrase then there really is no helping you. My best advice?...go out breath some fresh air, because if a phrase in an MMO bothers you that much I say you failed at life, life has way harder decisions than arguing over a phrase in a video game.

[Lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, really nothing more to say/post about it, you hit the nail right on the head with a sledge.

[Oedipus_Tex]

Oddly enough when people ask for a "healer" they seem perfectly content to have my Ice/Therm or Earth/Therm characters on the team. Maybe it varies from server to server. I've also never had to /kick a team member because s/he was a "healer," but I did once /kick a Trick Arrow Defender who spent a solid hour telling another team member he was an idiot because he had selected any heal powers at all.

And that pretty much sums it up for me. I would rather team with a player who isn't very good than a self proclaimed expert who is really just a bully. I would extend this to people so sensitive they feel like they've had their civil rights violated because they are bringing bad memories of WoW into their CoX gameplay.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?, So when you see an emp AT or a Thermal, you dont see the similarities in both priest and Shaman like abilities?. Heal, team bufff, aoe heal, revive, etc. Now your just delusional or in denial. I'm guessing you never played a Shaman in not just WoW but in many other MMO's, even in D&D the Shaman healed...Do some research before you go posting just to post.

Where are these ego's coming from? no one cared what defenders where called 4 yrs ago, I smell some elitist players hitting CoH, but I digress, you dont like being called a healer then sour grapes for you friend, if your bothered by an IN GAME phrase then there really is no helping you. My best advice?...go out breath some fresh air, because if a phrase in an MMO bothers you that much I say you failed at life, life has way harder decisions than arguing over a phrase in a video game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should learn to read. I detailed precisely why a Defender in our game isn't a "priest", "shaman", or "medic". You also shouldn't assume that I haven't play any other MMOs. I not only play WoW, but I've got high level shamans, druids, priests, and paladins. I know what I'm talking about.

I cared what they were called 4 years ago, I mean, I have been playing this game for 5 years after all. This mentality has existed since the dawn of the game and just because you don't have a problem with ignorance doesn't mean I don't. If you want to talk elitism, turn the mirror upon yourself so that you can see you own reflection. You get onto us about "getting mad at video games", yet you insist on arguing on the internet and telling me that I must have "failed at life"? These are the terms used by a child, and I don't have much patience for children.

You can continue to call yourself and all your buddies "healers" if you want. I don't care what you call yourselves, just don't expect those who know what's going on to invite you to a group without prior knowledge of your playstyle/ability, because "healer" has a definition, and in our game, a "healer" is a poor excuse for a character.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, really nothing more to say/post about it, you hit the nail right on the head with a sledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, a lot of people have been arguing that "healer" is an inaccurate and misleading term to describe support archetypes and powersets, which has nothing to do with needing heals. We do not in any way deny that healing is a useful capability, we just deny that it's the defining characteristic of support sets. Especially in light of the fact that multiple sets have no healing powers at all, but can provide just as much support as those that do. Is this really so impossible to understand?

i think think it's more of an absent-minded facepalm with that sledge than it is hitting a nail.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
Well just to quote myself from the other thread:

'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Except "healers" are useless, unless your use for them is to pad a mission. I can grab an Empath that does all a healer does on top of buff and blast. That healer is just going to stand around spamming heals all day. I don't have to "prove" anything because it's self-evident. Having a heal does not make one a healer by my definition. Your insinuation that "we need a healer or we'll die" is merely a theory just proves further that you have no idea what's going on. This isn't something we make up... even though Blasters are my favorite AT, the majority of my character list is made up of Defenders, and I have to deal with this mentality every stinking play-session. Maybe if you PuG'd more, you'd see it more often.

This of course is exempt in the case of the Hamidon, where healing is the only source of damage mitigation you're going to get. Hami cheats.

[Mr_Wilkinson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?, So when you see an emp AT or a Thermal, you dont see the similarities in both priest and Shaman like abilities?. Heal, team bufff, aoe heal, revive, etc. Now your just delusional or in denial. I'm guessing you never played a Shaman in not just WoW but in many other MMO's, even in D&D the Shaman healed...Do some research before you go posting just to post.

Where are these ego's coming from? no one cared what defenders where called 4 yrs ago, I smell some elitist players hitting CoH, but I digress, you dont like being called a healer then sour grapes for you friend, if your bothered by an IN GAME phrase then there really is no helping you. My best advice?...go out breath some fresh air, because if a phrase in an MMO bothers you that much I say you failed at life, life has way harder decisions than arguing over a phrase in a video game.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ego gets bruised when I play my TA/Arch Defender, get asked to join numerous teams, and then get dropped, either before we start, or after the first mission, because the other team members declare "We need a healer." Now, it hurts more when we finish the first mission and no one needed healing. But I let it go, a TA/Arch Defender can solo pretty well. Note that this kind of "add me then drop me" mentality, isn't seen so much at the higher levels. It seems that some folks learn that Defenders are useful even if they aren't "Healers."

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]


I have seen people limit thier choices for a kin, a rad, a stone tanker, no dark armors, etc. It is not limited to just defenders but defenders get the most bent out of shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I can't remember the last time I did an ITF without the leader waiting till he found a Kin to start. I was kicked from a LGTF just before starting because the leader found his Kin at the last minute and my Widow was deemed expendable. If anything, I would say that more people get left out or kicked from teams in favor of Kins then they do Healers, but we don't see people complaining about it here.

Stupid people are stupid. Getting all worked up over it and coming to the forums to whine about it isn't gonna change that.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I have seen people limit thier choices for a kin, a rad, a stone tanker, no dark armors, etc. It is not limited to just defenders but defenders get the most bent out of shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I can't remember the last time I did an ITF without the leader waiting till he found a Kin to start. I was kicked from a LGTF just before starting because the leader found his Kin at the last minute and my Widow was deemed expendable. If anything, I would say that more people get left out or kicked from teams in favor of Kins then they do Healers, but we don't see people complaining about it here.

Stupid people are stupid. Getting all worked up over it and coming to the forums to whine about it isn't gonna change that.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. The moral of the story is to never ever ever pug. Its just not worth the stupid.

[Selina_H]

[ QUOTE ]
How about all of the above?. See as I posted before, people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal, basically any means to mitigate lost life points, no one said you had to stop buffing/debuffing, just cause you have one heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that's not always the case. In my experience, teams specifically requesting a "healer" often want defenders to produce green number spam at the expense of the other powers in their arsenal.

I have Rad/ and Dark/ defenders, as well as a /Therm and a /Stormie. They all have heals. I use them. I also use all the other tools in my toolbox - debuffs, buffs and controls. I prefer the paradigm of layered mitigation, where heals are the final line of defense.

You won't find me on a "Healer" team. While I do use my heals, liberally where necessary, being relegated to nothing more than a backseat healspambot isn't an enjoyable playstyle for me. Being offended by the label has nothing to do with it - I have limited time to play, and I choose to play on teams that roll the same way I do. It's more fun and less hassle that way.

[Peacemoon]

"Except "healers" are useless, unless your use for them is to pad a mission."

Well what is the definition of "healer"?

Is it an empath with heal aura, heal other, absorb pain and medicine?

Is it anyone with a heal power?

Is it someone who refuses to use any power except their heal?

I'm assuming you mean either the first example of the last example, but even in those examples, a "healer" is never useless to a team. They may underperform compared to a person who takes a more holistic attitude to their character, but that doesn't make them useless.

The best characters always utilize every aspect of their power sets, regardless of archtype or set. Any character which focuses too much on one specific role is going to underperform in this game. Whether they are an empath focusing on healing, or a tanker focusing on defence to the exclusion of all attacks.

[Dersk]

[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.

Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.

Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.

[Transhade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.

Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I think the logical answer is he would have like someone not to neglect part of their primary pool to assist their team when it would have been more beneifical in certain instances to toss a heal before continuing with his blasting.

But then again you would prefer to troll.

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]


So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have to choose between two kinds of useless, yeah I'll take the heal spammer. In most cases those heals are far more usefull than some weak blasts. The exception being Sonic Blast. That's some good stuff there and that Defender would get yelled at for not blasting.

[Peacemoon]

Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.

I rarely see people get this critical of say scrappers and blasters. Even if a blaster is using his primary completely ineffectively very few people notice aslong as he is constantly blasting.

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.

Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.

PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.

[Master_Armantus]

[ QUOTE ]
Well what is the definition of "healer"?

Is it an empath with heal aura, heal other, absorb pain and medicine?

Is it anyone with a heal power?

Is it someone who refuses to use any power except their heal?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the original intent of the thread, because too many have varying definitions of the word, as it is not explicitly defined in the game. Many have offered great insights (barring the flaming) into how those with healing powers and those without can be used effectively.

However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.

I personally think the definition should be narrowed if players insist on using it in broadcast when looking for a team. Otherwise, the term becomes too vague and misleading. All this time I've assumed "healer" means an empathy defender/controller, but as I've said before I've seen storm summoners pass themselves off as healers as well.

[Emgro]

The term healer doesn't belong in broadcast or anywhere else in CoX. Healer mindset = bad. It's like going into WoW and claiming you're a Hunter with Speed Boost because you have that +5% speed thing. Completely meaningless.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have to choose between two kinds of useless, yeah I'll take the heal spammer. In most cases those heals are far more usefull than some weak blasts. The exception being Sonic Blast. That's some good stuff there and that Defender would get yelled at for not blasting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. either ones worthless. someone rocking the auras isnt going to save anyone's life.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.

Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.

PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.

[/ QUOTE ]

a bad player with a healer mentality will be afk and on autofollow on said blaster with the heal aura on autofire.

The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.

[AlienOne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.

Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.

PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.

[/ QUOTE ]

a bad player with a healer mentality will be afk and on autofollow on said blaster with the heal aura on autofire.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. That isn't a "healer mentality." That's an "afk" mentality or "leech" mentality, whichever term you prefer better.

"The One"

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]


The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.




Oh wait, they don't.

I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.

[Emgro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.




Oh wait, they don't.

I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a static party. Never had a particularly supportive SG (never particularly threw myself at one either, so not complaining). For me, PUGs are where the rubber meets the road; I'd get bored playing with the same ATs all the time.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think we have. "Healer" is defined as whatever you've decided your opponents define it as so that you can condemn them and seem to take the moral highground while declaring them idiots.

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.




Oh wait, they don't.

I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a static party. Never had a particularly supportive SG (never particularly threw myself at one either, so not complaining). For me, PUGs are where the rubber meets the road; I'd get bored playing with the same ATs all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much how I feel. Most of the regulars I played with quit after ED and GDN. The ones that stayed through that quit after the issue 13 PvP cluster [censored]. The only teams I get now are PUGs because I tend to play some odd hours. I personally like PUGs. I think it's more of a challenge in a game that has few challenges left.

If anything, PUGs have made me more tolerant of bad players. Too bad not everybody can look so kindly on others.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.




Oh wait, they don't.

I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a static party. Never had a particularly supportive SG (never particularly threw myself at one either, so not complaining). For me, PUGs are where the rubber meets the road; I'd get bored playing with the same ATs all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much how I feel. Most of the regulars I played with quit after ED and GDN. The ones that stayed through that quit after the issue 13 PvP cluster [censored]. The only teams I get now are PUGs because I tend to play some odd hours. I personally like PUGs. I think it's more of a challenge in a game that has few challenges left.

If anything, PUGs have made me more tolerant of bad players. Too bad not everybody can look so kindly on others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tolerance just lets them fester. I'll give advice to lowbies, but half the time they just ignore me or tell me off, so I really see it as pointless in most cases.

I'm not saying all pugs are bad, but I've found that for every time I've ever found a good pug, I've found at least 6 that imploded massively on the first pull due to sheer incompetence.

[Prof_Backfire]

[ QUOTE ]
The term healer doesn't belong in broadcast or anywhere else in CoX. Healer mindset = bad. It's like going into WoW and claiming you're a Hunter with Speed Boost because you have that +5% speed thing. Completely meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

[/ QUOTE ]
Problem is, other buff/debuff sets set the bar too high for Empathy. It's just not that good a set.

[Smurphy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.

[/ QUOTE ]
Problem is, other buff/debuff sets set the bar too high for Empathy. It's just not that good a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like you and I must play a different game. This forum is for City of Heroes, right? Here is where Empathy gets Fortitude, Regeneration Aura, Recovery Aura, Clear Mind and Adrenaline Boost, right?

[Lady_Sadako]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

A healer is any character who takes responsibility for maintaining teammates' health on an ongoing basis via the use of healing powers.





what? :)

[EvilDeathBee]

[ QUOTE ]
We've all seen the broadcasts: lvl XX healer lft. I used to think people were referring strictly to empaths, but apparently storm summoners can pass themselves as "healers" as well, with their amazing healing set consisting of a whopping 1 single target heal. Maybe it's just me, but this is just more than a tad bit misleading. If this is the case, then any blaster who happens to pick up the ally heal from the Medicine power pool can pass themselves off as "healers" as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear. I leave the game for a few months and this - this is what I return to?

*sob* It's like I never left.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

A healer is any character who takes responsibility for maintaining teammates' health on an ongoing basis via the use of healing powers.





what? :)

[/ QUOTE ]

except to some people it means "has a healing power" or to some it means "didnt bother with their blast or control set and bought the stealth and medicine pools"

[Lady_Sadako]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

A healer is any character who takes responsibility for maintaining teammates' health on an ongoing basis via the use of healing powers.





what? :)

[/ QUOTE ]

except to some people it means "has a healing power" or to some it means "didnt bother with their blast or control set and bought the stealth and medicine pools"

[/ QUOTE ]

it's okay. I know.

Let me see if I can manage another two years before the next lapse.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like you and I must play a different game. This forum is for City of Heroes, right? Here is where Empathy gets Fortitude, Regeneration Aura, Recovery Aura, Clear Mind and Adrenaline Boost, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Compared to the stronger buff/debuff sets? Ho and hum. Fort and AB look good on paper, but too often you only benefit from one aspect of each buff, and that makes them too short in duration and too long in recharge for what they're actually worth. In fact, if there weren't so much buff/debuff hate among the devs right now, I'm positive Empathy would be on the short list of sets deserving of dev love. Heck, just look how Pain Domination turned out.

Not to say Empathy's not useful, but it takes more player skill to get the same level of performance. Or certain specialized setups, such as Hamidon raids and Empathy duos, that favor Empathy (by requiring +regen in Hamidon's case, or by actually using all aspects of Fort and AB in Empathy duo's case).

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
"Except "healers" are useless, unless your use for them is to pad a mission."

Well what is the definition of "healer"?

Is it an empath with heal aura, heal other, absorb pain and medicine?

Is it anyone with a heal power?

Is it someone who refuses to use any power except their heal?

I'm assuming you mean either the first example of the last example, but even in those examples, a "healer" is never useless to a team. They may underperform compared to a person who takes a more holistic attitude to their character, but that doesn't make them useless.

The best characters always utilize every aspect of their power sets, regardless of archtype or set. Any character which focuses too much on one specific role is going to underperform in this game. Whether they are an empath focusing on healing, or a tanker focusing on defence to the exclusion of all attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the Quote button (or quote tags), is your friend.

I already gave you the definition of "healer" as I defined it, so I'm not going to repeat that here. I even gave examples where it may not be true (my definition) but choose to avoid people who want/advertise themselves as one because of all the other cases where I was 100% correct in my assumptions. Read my posts to find it.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.

Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is where you jump the shark. You accuse people of "hating healers" and point to Empaths who do the exact opposite, but equally stupid thing, to support your position that "a healer is helpful".

Most people who hate healers aren't saying that healing is bad and should be avoided. I hate healers, and I know the value of a heal and expect a heal to be used when the time comes to use it. I hate people who do NOTHING but SPAM heals endlessly.

It's really that simple.

[Cavatina]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal

[/ QUOTE ]

If only that were true...

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.

Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is where you jump the shark. You accuse people of "hating healers" and point to Empaths who do the exact opposite, but equally stupid thing, to support your position that "a healer is helpful".

Most people who hate healers aren't saying that healing is bad and should be avoided. I hate healers, and I know the value of a heal and expect a heal to be used when the time comes to use it. I hate people who do NOTHING but SPAM heals endlessly.

It's really that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

This.

If you're an empath, and you're on my team, you better be using your buffs , healing when appropriate, and blasting.

Else I'm kicking your gimp [censored].

[MunkiLord]

As long as the team is doing fine, I don't care what any particular person does. I personally find it stupid to expect somebody to play a certain way.

[Oedipus_Tex]

[ QUOTE ]
And this is where you jump the shark. You accuse people of "hating healers" and point to Empaths who do the exact opposite, but equally stupid thing, to support your position that "a healer is helpful".

Most people who hate healers aren't saying that healing is bad and should be avoided. I hate healers, and I know the value of a heal and expect a heal to be used when the time comes to use it. I hate people who do NOTHING but SPAM heals endlessly.

It's really that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble is you are arguing with phantoms. So far in this thread no one has said they think a player who stands in the back and only heals is pulling their weight. The closest you can get is someone who said that he'd prefer a Empath who turned on auto aura to one who turned on auto blasts, which is kind of like saying he prefers skinning his knee to getting a splinter.

If there are people who believe in pacifist healers who exist, they are either laying low, avoiding this thread, or not interested posting. Regardless, inventing them out of people who use the word "healer" while explaining that they do not think it means "only healing" is fruitless.

[MunkiLord]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And this is where you jump the shark. You accuse people of "hating healers" and point to Empaths who do the exact opposite, but equally stupid thing, to support your position that "a healer is helpful".

Most people who hate healers aren't saying that healing is bad and should be avoided. I hate healers, and I know the value of a heal and expect a heal to be used when the time comes to use it. I hate people who do NOTHING but SPAM heals endlessly.

It's really that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble is you are arguing with phantoms. So far in this thread no one has said they think a player who stands in the back and only heals is pulling their weight. The closest you can get is someone who said that he'd prefer a Empath who turned on auto aura to one who turned on auto blasts, which is kind of like saying he prefers skinning his knee to getting a splinter.

If there are people who believe in pacifist healers who exist, they are either laying low, avoiding this thread, or not interested posting. Regardless, inventing them out of people who use the word "healer" while explaining that they do not think it means "only healing" is fruitless.

[/ QUOTE ] You're actually quoting _Laxx_, not me. Not a big deal, just pointing it out.

I'll take a healer(the bad kind) almost anytime I'm doing normal PvE missions. I'll just use them as perma-fillers.

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take a healer(the bad kind) almost anytime I'm doing normal PvE missions. I'll just use them as perma-fillers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish I could be that laid back! They annoy me too much, I don't like my fillers holding up the start of the mission with "gather" and saying silly things like "stay close for heals." :(

[MunkiLord]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like my fillers holding up the start of the mission with "gather"

[/ QUOTE ] I don't even bother gathering around unless I'm about to do something like take on an AV. I don't even try to get the team to gather when I play my rad defender, I just attempt to hit as many people as possible with AM. I would do the same thing on my emp defender with his auras, but I deleted him because I would rather get shot in the head then be an emp.

[Prof_Backfire]

Somehow when I play my Ill/Emp I get hot under the collar about healing. I've called someone 'The Grand Noobah of the City Built On Aura Rock 'n Roll'.

Funny, when I'm playing my Kin/Rad Defender I'm either having far too much fun SBing everybody, or soloing, which is hilarity in itself.

[HelinCarnate]

Default message for buffs

Casting (Buff name here) on myself in 5 seconds. Get close if you want to bathe in my awsomeness.