Gravity (Again)

[Peacemoon]

Well its time to bring up Gravity Control and its effectiveness again. Why? Because it is a weak control set that in my view could still use a few small adjustment. I know a lot of people agree and it has been left in the dark for far too long. I will try keep this brief and to the point.

Gravity's Flaws:

1) Gravity has very limited AoE control. It has no real AoE control till level 18, and this is a short duration long recharge. The "gap filler" is not accessible till level 26 and even then is mediocre at best. This makes Gravity a very very weak control set until 26, where at that level it just becomes workable in a team setting.

2) Gravity is full of single target "fun" powers, and yes they are fun, I would never advocate removing Lift or Propel. However, they also are not hugely effective in a team setting. Due to this, there is a greater importance of other early powers in the set to be usful.

3) Dimension Shift, Gravity's first really powerful power has a very negative effect on teams. If everything is going well, and you are chugging along nicely this power has zero use at all. It can only be used as a emergancy power to buy a team extra time.

As gravity does not have much control, it can not afford to have such a badly positioned power in its set. Because of its placement it leaves Gravity as the worst control set in the early game by a large margain, forcing controllers atleast to focus heavily on their secondary set. Becoming second rate defenders with a bit of control thrown in. I don't know what dominators do, they probably solo, or hitch a ride to 26 as fast as they can.

4) Wormhole is a good power, but its radius is too small and its activation time is FAR TOO LONG! It is also the only AoE Control power which has a knockback effect, causing the power to scatter foes. Especially as Gravity's AoE immobalize does not prevent knockbakc. It comes late in the tree for gravity, and many gravity players have already given up before reaching it.

Suggestions

Okay this is not all doom and gloom, Gravity is a fun set, with a great theme. It has many "cool" and "uinque" powers and arguably the best pet for helping out with control. Many people look towards it because of its unusal nature, unlike fire, frost, earth etc which is available in any game. Gravity in that way - is unique.

However it lags behind other control sets at low levels by a very big margain and while it catches up a bit with wormhole, you never quite feel like an amazing hero while playing it, rather a weak, unloved sibling of the other control sets who just about manages to get the job done.

You watch other sets pull off amazing, flashy stunts and once the novelty of propel wears off, many Grav players abandon their character for greener pastures. I for one do not blame them.

I know CoX devs do not like to adjust sets too much and I agree with this principle. However I would plead, beg and wish for them to listen to these suggestions I have which would make Gravity a much more fun, workable set at low levels whilst not making them overly powerful either.

i) Bring Wormhole to level 12, push Dimension Shift up to 26.
ii) Increase Lift's damage to match Levitate. (Controller Only)
iii) Increase Propel's damage significantly or lower animation time.
iv) Lower the activation time of Wormhole to something reasonable.
v) Increase the radius of Wormhole to match other powers with similar effects.
vi) Consider turning the knockback to knockdown, atleast when unslotted. Gravity is the only set with knockback on its AoE disorient.
vii) Replace Dimension Shift with either a 'Location Targeted Knockup Field' (kind of the reverse of Ice Slick) or a 'Targeted AoE Knockup'.

I realise wormhole is a special power due to the enemy teleport, but perhaps it would be a set defining power ala ice slick. If 12 is too early, then atleast make more radical changes to dimension shift to fill the large control gap Gravity has.

Thanks for reading!

[Thaumator]

As a long-time grav/ player, I can certainly understand your frustration :eek:

IMHO, the only real change grav/ needs to be more competitive with other control primaries would be the following -

Gravity Distortion Field

1. decrease recharge time from 240 seconds to 120 seconds

That's it. It's already available fairly early in your career (lvl 18), it's a mag 3 hold, a duration of 17.9 seconds, and has a 20 foot radius.

Simply making this power more available to us via faster recharge would definitely increase our QoL.

Just my 2 cents...

[MikeRobe]

Gravity is a very weak yet persistent force...

[Briarpatch]

[ QUOTE ]

Gravity Distortion Field

1. decrease recharge time from 240 seconds to 120 seconds



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this! Also, I'd like to see the singularity pull things toward it instead of knock things away... you know... like a mini black hole? This is what a singularity is--right?

[Peacemoon]

I will add the reduced recharge of GDF to the main post, its a good alternative to wormhole fiddling. (Although some positive wormhole changes would still be welcome!)

Thanks for the support guys. :-)

[boardthug]

For AOE controls, gravity has the standard AOE immobilize on a short timer, and AOE hold on a very long timer. The two of its AOE powers that are unusual compared to other control sets are dimension shift, and wormhole.

Wormhole is an AOE teleport foe combined with a mag three stun, 20% chance of a mag 4, knockback in case the hold doesn't take and it's only on a 90 second timer. You don't need line of sight and you can place the targets wherever you like, so controlling the knockback is no problem. It has a smaller radius than some AOE controls, but the same target limit. I consider that limited radius a small trade-off for all the other abilities. Dimension shift is a panic button, with a 90-second timer. Most control sets have some power of this nature, and a lot of players skip them. D-shift is more extreme than most -- lots of sets have AOE sleeps that are great on overflow enemies, but wasted on the team's main target. Dimension shift is better against the overflow right up until the team is ready to deal with them, and is counterproductive if you accidentally use it on the main target. Ok, don't screw up, no problem. Alternately, skip the power. You'll hear that advice about the AOE sleep powers if you visit the controller forums often enough.

You don't like the order of the AOE controls. Wormhole fills (very roughly) the same function on the gravity list that arctic air and stalagmites do for ice and earth, and those come quite a bit earlier than level 26. The problem I have with swapping this and dimension shift is that it frontloads gravity with all of its fun single-target powers and its AOE controls very early on, leaving the skippable powers for later. I could see moving crushing field into the propel slot, then swapping propel and wormhole. Alternately, leave propel where it is and swap wormhole with Gravity Distortion Field. I can't agree with having (ST) gravity distortion, crushing field, wormhole, lift and propel available by lvl 12. And I would not change the powers themselves in any way.

[imported_CrazyCorsaire]

<QR> I'd mostly just like to have Propel with a full 80' range or do just KD rather than KB.

[Brimstone Bruce]

If I could take the game, put it in a box separate from everyone else, and change one power in the set, I'd swap Dimension Shift or Propel for a power named Gravity Well. Targetted AoE, 25ft. radius, 90-second recharge, 20-30s duration. Creates a reverse repel effect, drawing all foes toward the center, along with a slow. High chance of knockdown throughout the duration, ala Freezing Rain. A readily-available AoE knockdown would synergize perfectly with Crushing Field, thanks to its lack of a -kb effect.

'Course, it would require totally removing an existing power, which probly just ain't gonna happen.

[Peacemoon]

The way I see it Boardthug, is that Gravity needs the tools to do its job. Where as most control sets have a plethora of powers that get the job done, gravity has lots of powers that are just fluff. The only power in the whole set that is often skipped is Dimension Shift and for good reason. In the rare circumstance that its needed, you are probably dead anyway.

Current order:
1, Crush (ST Immob)
1, Lift (ST Knockup)
2, Gravity Distortion (ST Hold + Knockback protection)
6, Propel (ST Knockback)
8, Crushing Field (AoE Immob)
12, Dimension Shift (AoE Intangible)
18, Gravity Distortion Field (AoE Hold + Knockback protection)
26, Wormhole (AoE Enemy TP + Stun + Knockback)
32, Singularity (Pet)

If you look at that list, you will see that
A) Gravity gets no AoE control outside AoE Immobalize until level 18. This itself is laughable. A dark blast corrupter has more AoE control then this.

B) The AoE hold at 18 has a long recharge and short duration. In my experience a team can kill between 2 - 4 groups before it has recharged, giving it an uptime of 25-50%. Otherwise, Grav relies on just AoE immobalize till..

C) Wormhole arrives at 26, and is not even that good. Most gravs try and abuse it with walls as a work around to the knockback anyway.

Conclusion?
In practice, a Grav just under performs. That has always been my experience while playing as one. Any road test of Grav will show the same. Now I could do a more in depth analysis but the facts to me are clear.

[Peacemoon]

[ QUOTE ]
If I could take the game, put it in a box separate from everyone else, and change one power in the set, I'd swap Dimension Shift or Propel for a power named Gravity Well. Targetted AoE, 25ft. radius, 90-second recharge, 20-30s duration. Creates a reverse repel effect, drawing all foes toward the center, along with a slow. High chance of knockdown throughout the duration, ala Freezing Rain. A readily-available AoE knockdown would synergize perfectly with Crushing Field, thanks to its lack of a -kb effect.

'Course, it would require totally removing an existing power, which probly just ain't gonna happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been suggested many times, even when Kheldians were released and they had/were going to have access to a power called "Gravity Well". It fits with the set and the theme, but I agree, unlikely that despite how unpopular Dimension Shift is, it will never be replaced.

Personally I think the only thing that saves Dimension Shift from the axe is the fact it sounds so cool, despite being so lame. How such a power relates to a set based around Gravity I don't know though ;-)

[Natsuki]

The reason why there has never been a power that works as a reverse Repel (Not the power, but the effect), is because the game engine can't handle it. I have no clue if the Dev's post is still out there on it or not sadly.

[Brimstone Bruce]

LoL, I'm currently levelling a Warshade, and somehow managed to forget that Gravity Well is taken. How about Black Hole? Wait, no... I dunno, call it Grav Pulse. LoL.

Edit: RE: Natsuki: Even without the inverse repel, I think an AoE slow/knockdown would work well with the set. But, at this point, it's wishful thinking anywho. Guess that's why I have my Grav/Storm. :D

[Peacemoon]

Ah then it must of changed, but yes Gravity Well was orginally designed to do what you suggested, much to the shock of Gravity Controllers everywhere ;-)

However the location effect - periodic knockup, or AoE lift, is another suggestion that is always fun with gravity.

However my initial suggestions were more minor because to be frank, nothing much is ever done with Gravity. Probably because as a set, it does not have a very loud voice.

[Early Girl]

I mentioned this in another thread but thought it might go over well here (Thanks for the link Ditzy_Blonde) and I haven't seen it mentioned thus far (forgive me if it has, i really just skimmed through).

As a newcomer to the Grav power (recently started a Grav/Elec DOM) this was the first thing that ran through my head while using propel....That it should be a Cone attack instead of ST. IMO, that would make more sense. And also perhaps make up for the longer animation a bit.

[boardthug]

Here are the controller primaries, their aoe hold, recharge, and durations. Tell me, please, what you think is wrong with gravity's.

Earth: (no AOE hold, closest approximation) Volcanic gasses, multiple effects, durations range from 15 s to 61 s, deals significant damage, recharge 4 m
Fire: Cinders, mag 3, duration 10 s, recharge 4 m
Gravity: Gravity Distortion Field, mag 3, duration 10 s, recharge 4 m
Ice: Glacier, PBAOE, mag 3, duration 10 s, recharge 4 m
Illusion: ??? no reasonable equivalent
Mind: Total Domination, mag 3, duration 10 s, recharge 4 m
Plant: Vines, mag 3, duration 10 s, recharge 4 m

We're never going to agree on wormhole. I think it's one of the best powers available to any controller.

What we agreed on is that having as many single-target attacks as it does, gravity develops its AOE control more slowly than most control sets. You listed this:
Current order:
1, Crush (ST Immob)
1, Lift (ST Knockup)
2, Gravity Distortion (ST Hold + Knockback protection)
6, Propel (ST Knockback)
8, Crushing Field (AoE Immob)
12, Dimension Shift (AoE Intangible)
18, Gravity Distortion Field (AoE Hold + Knockback protection)
26, Wormhole (AoE Enemy TP + Stun + Knockback)
32, Singularity (Pet)

I proposed two variants, both designed to bring more practical, usable AOE control to the set earlier.

version 1:
1, Crush (ST Immob)
1, Lift (ST Knockup)
2, Gravity Distortion (ST Hold + Knockback protection)
6, Crushing Field (AoE Immob)
8, Wormhole (AoE Enemy TP + Stun + Knockback)
12, Dimension Shift (AoE Intangible)
18, Gravity Distortion Field (AoE Hold + Knockback protection)
26, Propel (ST Knockback)
32, Singularity (Pet)

version 2:
1, Crush (ST Immob)
1, Lift (ST Knockup)
2, Gravity Distortion (ST Hold + Knockback protection)
6, Propel (ST Knockback)
8, Crushing Field (AoE Immob)
12, Dimension Shift (AoE Intangible)
18, Wormhole (AoE Enemy TP + Stun + Knockback)
26, Gravity Distortion Field (AoE Hold + Knockback protection)
32, Singularity (Pet)

[Weatherby Goode]

<QR>

I could write up a big long post on this subject (its an issue near and dear to my heart) but I'm lazy, so I'll just refer to the link in my Sig. my thoughts on the subject haven't really changed since I started that thread.

[Weatherby Goode]

In addition to the Wormhole changes suggested (larger radius, earlier set position, shorter animation) I would suggest making it autohit and forcing the stun to hit at -25%. Basically that would make certain that a spawn doesn't get slip up without giving Grav an autohit stun.

[Dz131]

Propel needs to hit Cone. Dimension Shift needs to change to a toggle (single aoe I don't care). Wormhole needs to be faster.

[ketch]

Here's a thought though this would likely have some unpredictable and unpleasant results. A gravity well like power could spawn several pseudo-pets in a circular array, all using a telekinesis like power, to create an imitation of a -repel power. I'd imagine they would all have to target the same creature though and their tk effect would have to have a range slightly longer than the radius of the circle.

[BlackSly]

1: Propel as a cone KB/Damage power (probably 1/2 to 1/3 current damage depending on cone arc... personally I'm thinking narrow cone, 15-20 degrees).

2: Lift as a 15' radius AoE lift, drop to 1/2 current damage and recharge at 12 sec.

That should be enough. Gravity becomes a KD/KU/KB control set with AoEs, plus AoE damage. It's a better distinguishing characteristic than its current low-AoE control, high-ST damage characteristic.

[Jibikao]

I have a lvl 43 Gravity/Icy Dom. My feelings are:

1. Wormhole needs to be at least 20' radius. 15' can be a problem because it can't cover a big team and once you start teleporting them, you draw huge aggro. It is nice to do it out-of-sight but many aoe controls like Seeds and Flashfire have huge coverage.

2. Wormhole needs to come earlier than lvl 26.

3. Make Lift a radius 4 AoE knockup!


Done!

[Peacemoon]

Thankyou for the feedbakc guys, its all good!

[Pouncer]

I really want to play gravity but I'm just not hardcore enough to play a dominator that has such limited control powers. I'd really like to see an overhaul of this set.

[GreyGuardian]

I've got a grav/kinetics controller. With siphon speed, hasten, and some IO sets providing a global recharge speed boost the AoE hold is usually available when I need it. One caveat, this is the character I run with my wife's dark/dark scrapper so that may skew my ideas of adequate control.

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
I really want to play gravity but I'm just not hardcore enough to play a dominator that has such limited control powers. I'd really like to see an overhaul of this set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch. You missed your chance to power level your Grav Dom to over lvl 26 (Wormhole) during Farming Madness? :cool:

[Kahzi]

Wow. Really?

I'm a new player (and pretty new to crowd control in general) who picked grav/therm.

If this is weak, I need to try another controller! *cackle*

Disclaimer: I'm only level 14 as of yet, and I'm not sure I grok Dimension Shift.

But I don't feel like a weakling at all; I feel pretty durn cool!

[Elaith]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Really?

I'm a new player (and pretty new to crowd control in general) who picked grav/therm.

If this is weak, I need to try another controller! *cackle*

Disclaimer: I'm only level 14 as of yet, and I'm not sure I grok Dimension Shift.

But I don't feel like a weakling at all; I feel pretty durn cool!

[/ QUOTE ]

The game is not going to shoot you in the face becaus eyou are running a gravity controller. This isn't the first time this topic has come up and it won't be the last, and gravity has gotten some improvements in the past. Remember when wormhole was single target? Anyway, if you like the character go ahead and stick with it, gravity is still (in my opinion at least) a fun set.

[Talen Lee]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember when wormhole was single target?

[/ QUOTE ]No. And I don't because that happened before I started to play the game. Three years ago.

[Oedipus_Tex]

Gravity is a lot of fun but I agree some improvements are in order.

I'm not sure I agree that more knock-up is the solution tho, because knock is cancelled by other Controllers spamming cage powers. This is already a source of irritation for Ice and Earth trollers, sets that luckily have other powers to rely on. Gravity does not, and having your main source of controls constantly zeroed out by other players setting up containment would be really frustrating. I know some will say you can just ask other players not to to do spam cages, but that basically means that bringing a Gravity controller forces your team to hold back, and you would have been better off with a different Controller altogether.

Now, if the knockup powers included a chance for a stun or hold, I'd be much more inclined to like them.

I think shortening the recharge on the area effect hold is the way to go. Changing Dimension Shift from an intangibile to a.... well <i>anything</i> but intangibility power would vastly improve it as well. As long as it isn't Sleep.

[Starsman]

There is only one real issue with grav and it has been noted here a few times. Fixing that one issue would fix Grav: Dimension Shift. It's not a problem exclusive to grav, though, its an inherent issue to shift powers in this game.

Reordering powers is out of the question, according to the last I heard from the devs.
The devs also won't change the use of a power so no matter what, dimension shift will remain a shift aoe.

The idea of making the power a low end cost toggle, though, is a darn good one. It would allow for a part of the mob to be shifted for the amount of time needed, no longer than needed. It still would not be the ideal for many, but given level range, it would sure beat sleep powers. It's recharge should be lowered to 60s to be more in line with Telekinesis, but endurance should not be based on a per-foe basis as TK as you already are in a position where you can't attack these foes.

I'd also lower the hit cap from 16 to 7, this would allow to split a decent sized mob without being forced to shift the entire thing.

Separate thing, and more in the lines of the game itself, I would make some interface option that the user was able to change on the options screen that made shifted foes not targetable so that clicking on them or tabing won't select them. The option, as noted, should be something the user be able to change and by default turned off in PvP zones while by default on in PvE. This would make shift powers more useful as players would be less likely to waste endurance and time hitting a shifted foe.

[Talen Lee]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of making the power a low end cost toggle, though, is a darn good one.

[/ QUOTE ]It also, at last check, can't work. You apply the toggle, the entity phases out, they can't be affected by the toggle, they phase back in.

[Void_X]

I played a gravity controller for quite a long time so have a good bit of experience with Gravity as a powerset. Ive also played a Gravity Dominator, simply because I love Gravity so much despite its performance issues.

There are three easy fixes that will not make the set overpowered, will bring it up to par with the other control sets, and overall give Gravity the attention it has needed for a long time but has yet to receive.

1) Lift needs to be an AoE or Cone power with its damage scaled down to reflect the change. One thing Gravity does not lack is single target control and damage. Using Lift to shore up the lack of AoE soft control and damage is the most logical place to start.

2)Wormhole needs to be altered so that the radius is slightly larger and the knockback is converted into knockup or knockdown. It also needs to come earlier in the set; between 12-22 is fair. The activiation time also should be looked at and probably shortened.

3) Dimension Shift needs to be removed from the set and replaced with am AoE soft control power. The consensus is that a Location Based AoE that uses Knockup as a soft control; similar to how Freezing Rain or Ice Slick use Knockdown as a soft control. In this case, such a power could be interchangable with Wormhole as far as the level they are available go. Iwould prefer that Wormhole stay later in the set while a power like this be gotten earlier.

That is all. With those three changes, gravity would perform on at least the same level as other control sets and would be more played, and also more enjoyable for those that play the set. These changes are realistic in terms of game balance, seemingly not too resource intensive for the Devs, and dont diminish the "feel" of Gravity Control but rather enhance it noticeably.

I know we have all been lobbying to the Devs for a much change to our favorite control set, for a long time. I can only hope that a Red Name or Dev read this thread and take action, this time. I dont care what certain Devs have said about not doing this, or changing that, in the past. Today is where we are. They CAN and SHOULD change their minds based on the amount of player feedback they have received about this particular problem.

How many threads about Gravity that are tons of pages long, with multiple ideas and fixes for the powerset, need to be made before someone in charge finally says "Lets make Gravity shine!"? Not too many more I hope.

[Freem]

I have modest expectations.
Just enlarge the AoE radius to wormhole and I'll be happy. :p

[Reiraku]

I'd love it if Dimensional Shift were replaced with a power called Gravity Well. Target based toggle that has a reverse repel effect. All enemies in the area are drawn closer to that target.

Gets them in niiiiice and close for some AoE havok.

[Virtual_Fighter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love it if Dimensional Shift were replaced with a power called Gravity Well. Target based toggle that has a reverse repel effect. All enemies in the area are drawn closer to that target.

Gets them in niiiiice and close for some AoE havok.

[/ QUOTE ]

This.

Although, Warshades already have "Gravity Well."

Perhaps something like "Gravitational Vortex" which could be a location AoE? Just shooting from the hip.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea of making the power a low end cost toggle, though, is a darn good one.

[/ QUOTE ]It also, at last check, can't work. You apply the toggle, the entity phases out, they can't be affected by the toggle, they phase back in.

[/ QUOTE ]
The last time i recall the Devs saying that was also before phased targets were given the ability to attack each other in PvP. Even before that Police/Arachnos Drone, Hamidon and Mitochondria blasts had the ability to affect phased targets. IIRC, debuff toggles placed on enemies continue running when they phase even though they stop having an effect on the anchor. It may be possible now to have a toggle continue to affect phased targets. Since i'm not a Dev i can't say for sure.

[Talen Lee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love it if Dimensional Shift were replaced with a power called Gravity Well. Target based toggle that has a reverse repel effect. All enemies in the area are drawn closer to that target.

Gets them in niiiiice and close for some AoE havok.

[/ QUOTE ]This also 'doesn't work' because of the way repel currently works.

[Starsman]

Things have changed. The devs now have the ability to allow a power to affect shifted foes. Hammi does it, and PvP code was made to allow any power affect shifted foes if the caster is shifted himself.

The idea of making it a toggle is no longer impossible. Actually, it never was. If you made it a 2 second duration with .5 second pulse, it would keep trying to refresh. Once the target unshift he may be able to toss an attack if he is lucky but he will be unshifted immediately by the subsequent shift pulse in less than .5 seconds. That, as i noted, was before tech was added. Now a shift can affect a shifted foe and stack on top if the dev so desire.

As for the knockback in wormhole, the kb in wormhole is not there to mitigate but to simulate an effect (you get sucked in and toss the other side) that likely will never change. The disorient after the porting is the mitigation effect. However I seen many gravs manipulate this effect. If you point it up they will be shoot up and then down, with very minor scatter. If you point it to a wall or corner, instant herding as no tanker can achieve. If you hover and point it straight down: knockcown.

The radius is balanced against it's incredible ability to bring the foe to you so i doubt that will ever change either.

Now, I do admit I have not used the power myself but have teamed with many that do and I seen the effects of wormhole and never seen anyone do scatter with it and rarely do foes off a mob stay behind due to the radius being too small. Not sure how hard it is to pull off, but seems that most people that have bothered to get that far have figured it out quickly.

The problem with the set lies at the low levels where other sets have other types of soft control. Sleeps specially. These, too, can be hard to do much on AoE heavy teams, but at least they help mitigate damage. By making DS a togle it can work as it does now giving the user an option to just turn it off. If so it is determined, they can cap how long the toggle can be on to 30 seconds top.

IF the duration is capped there is suddenly a second thing you can add to it: damage over time. You can claim that this other dimension is extremely hot, cold, whatever, causing the foes that are sent there to suffer damage over time while there. Might mitigate a bit the fact the team can't harm these foes and not become a tool that would allow the caster to safely kill anything because you only have 30 seconds before it crashes.

[Elaith]

[QR]
I think wormhole works as is, the only thing I wuold change is to have the stun apply at the beginning of the animation rather then after the port. As it is if you try to open with it you eat the alpha unless you can do so from out of LoS. That said, if it meant giving up one of it's aspects to get that, I'll keep the delay :P

[Azucar_NA]

I think wormhole should have a bigger radius, it isn't THAT great. It has negatives like kb, awkwardness on teams (where'd the enemies go effect), and needing to be out of LoS. I'm 110% for toggling dimension shift and limiting it to a cap of 7. The increase in accuracy and control is offset by enemy limit and toggles can be detoggle through holds/stuns/sleep.

[Eisregen_NA]

<QR>

I really liked the idea of making Lift an AOE. I find this particular fiendish since Grav's Immob doesn't have the -KB component other Controller Immobs have. That would allow you to have some amount of reliable if very soft Control before Wormhole. Lock them down with Crushing Field, keep them more or less on their backs with Lift.

Of course, Lift would have to be moved back in the list (making it AOE would roughly make it the equal of Mind's Terrify) or have its Damage component reduced.

[Nethergoat]

I like my grav/TA controller quite a bit.

I skipped the phase power because they annoy the heck out of me, but a lot of sets have dumb powers most people skip. It's be nice if it didn't stink, but it's no big deal.

I rate power sets by how fun they are to play, and I think grav is a lot of fun.

[Airhammer]

Ive said this severfal times. Make the propel attck look like a small singularity being launched. This would easily speed up the long animation. I hate it when propel launches and hits AFTER the foe is dead...

Grav has no soft conrtols.. thats a serious weakness.. Earth has stuff like quicksand and earth quake to go along with its Aoe immobilize and Aoe Hold. Ice has tools like Ice Slick and Artic Air to help mitigate damage.. Fire has an EASY to use disorient as well as AoE and utilities like smoke.. Illusion is Illusion nuff said there...

Gravity has the standard AoE immobilize and hold,,, It has dimension shift a power that almost NO ONE takes and EVERYONE hates on teams...

Wormhole which is difficult to use and annoys teamates when mobs in front of them disappears..

The graphices are hard to see so sometimes is hard to tell who is affeccted and who isnt...

The WARSHADE got better gravity attacks than the Grav based Primary has...

Gravity needs serious help... badly... IMO it is one of the worst Controller sets that exists.. I think Grav is fun and I will never get rid of my grav/kin but this set needs love.. badly....

[Nethergoat]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive said this severfal times. Make the propel attck look like a small singularity being launched. This would easily speed up the long animation. I hate it when propel launches and hits AFTER the foe is dead...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm all for speeding it up, but DO NOT touch the animation.

Throwing cars and telephone poles at people is the best thing about the set.

[OneWhoBinds]

Personally? All Grav needs is a few touch-ups.

First off, lowering the animation times of Propel (From 3.5 seconds to maybe 2 or 2.5 seconds) and Wormhole (3 seconds to 2 seconds) would be a big help, right there.

Making the effects of DS visably obvious would go a long way to helping that power out. If Shifted opponents suddenly glowed bright blue, it would be a whole lot easier to tell what opponents were still viable... and thus, remove probably the biggest complaint against the power.

Finally, if Crushing Field did a higher rate of damage than it currently does, that would be quite nice. (Maybe scale it to the same level as Roots from Plant Control?)

With those tweaks, I think Gravity would need nothing more.

[Oathbound]

My opinion leans towards, Lift being made an AoE, and wormhole being moved to an earlier level.

Reordering powersets is not unheard of. Tankers used to get Taunt at level 4. It was moved to level 10 at some point, allowing Tankers more attacks at very low level.

Change the order to:

1)Crush
1)Gravity Distortion
2)Crushing Field
6)Propel
8)Lift - AoE
12)Dimension Shift
18)Wormhole
26)Gravity Distortion Field
32)Singularity

or

1)Crush
1)Gravity Distortion
2)Crushing Field
6)Propel
8)Lift - AoE
12)Wormhole
18)Gravity Distortion Field
26)Dimension Shift
32)Singularity

[Peacemoon]

It is nice that my thread has been bumped again, it really offers a good rationale for why Gravity should receive some positive changes. Thanks for all the input everyone.

Nethergoat:

[ QUOTE ]
I like my grav/TA controller quite a bit.

I skipped the phase power because they annoy the heck out of me, but a lot of sets have dumb powers most people skip. It's be nice if it didn't stink, but it's no big deal.

I rate power sets by how fun they are to play, and I think grav is a lot of fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I accept there will be differing views of opinion on this subject.

However I question whether your opinion is based largely as a result of the 'Trick Arrow' secondary, a set which is largely known for its heavy control. This could be influencing your opinion greatly on whether Gravity suffers from a lack of control.

[_Laxx_]

[ QUOTE ]
It is nice that my thread has been bumped again, it really offers a good rationale for why Gravity should receive some positive changes. Thanks for all the input everyone.

Nethergoat:

[ QUOTE ]
I like my grav/TA controller quite a bit.

I skipped the phase power because they annoy the heck out of me, but a lot of sets have dumb powers most people skip. It's be nice if it didn't stink, but it's no big deal.

I rate power sets by how fun they are to play, and I think grav is a lot of fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I accept there will be differing views of opinion on this subject.

However I question whether your opinion is based largely as a result of the 'Trick Arrow' secondary, a set which is largely known for its heavy control. This could be influencing your opinion greatly on whether Gravity suffers from a lack of control.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't mention anything in that quote about Gravity's control or potential lack thereof. He merely said that he rates sets based on how fun they are, and the feels Grav is a lot of fun. I really don't think Trick Arrow came into play anywhere in there. Wormhole is a really fun power, and so is Propel. Singularity is also highly amusing, so I tend to agree with him that Grav is a fun set.

[Peacemoon]

Well it is true that it was not explicitly stated. However my understanding was he thought that despite Gravity underperforming, it is a fun set and so nothing should be done in regards to its problems. Having read some of his other posts, he doesn't strike me as someone who plays an underpowered set just because he finds it fun, so thats why I spoke out about his TA secondary.

This brings about a question though, can an underpowered set be 'fun' in some peoples opinions?

If the answer is yes, then surely whether a powerset is fun or not is completely irrelevant to whether the set is overpowered/underpowered. It might influence people on whether they are more or less likely to complain about though. A fun, yet underpowered set might find it more difficult to find a voice. Perhaps Gravity falls under this category?

If the answer is no, that underpowered sets are never considered 'fun', then I maintain my original opinion which is that Trick Arrow is a very control heavy secondary for controllers, is would be quite effective in masking any problems Gravity has. The result could be someone who plays Grav/TA or possibly Grav/Storm doesn't find the set so lacking.

Personally, I find 'fun' to be a very subjective term that doesn't really add anything to a discussion on whether a set needs dev attention or not. People can have fun doing some pretty silly and bizarre things, that is very evident ;-)

If you have a read about you will find the general consensus on gravity is that it is a late bloomer, and has at best only average control.

[Jibikao]

Another problem I have with Gravity is on Dominator. Propel is an ok attack for Controller because troller lacks attacks early on. Proper with Containment is decent dmg but Dominator already has secondary devoted to damage. Propel seems out-of-place on Dominator. Maybe Dom's Propel can deal more damage? I might consider taking it. I took it early it 'cause it looks cool!

I say lower the activation time on Propel. Increase Lift's radius to 4' radius and switch Wormhole and DS. Bingo.

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
Well it is true that it was not explicitly stated. However my understanding was he thought that despite Gravity underperforming, it is a fun set and so nothing should be done in regards to its problems. Having read some of his other posts, he doesn't strike me as someone who plays an underpowered set just because he finds it fun, so thats why I spoke out about his TA secondary.

This brings about a question though, can an underpowered set be 'fun' in some peoples opinions?

If the answer is yes, then surely whether a powerset is fun or not is completely irrelevant to whether the set is overpowered/underpowered. It might influence people on whether they are more or less likely to complain about though. A fun, yet underpowered set might find it more difficult to find a voice. Perhaps Gravity falls under this category?

If the answer is no, that underpowered sets are never considered 'fun', then I maintain my original opinion which is that Trick Arrow is a very control heavy secondary for controllers, is would be quite effective in masking any problems Gravity has. The result could be someone who plays Grav/TA or possibly Grav/Storm doesn't find the set so lacking.

Personally, I find 'fun' to be a very subjective term that doesn't really add anything to a discussion on whether a set needs dev attention or not. People can have fun doing some pretty silly and bizarre things, that is very evident ;-)

If you have a read about you will find the general consensus on gravity is that it is a late bloomer, and has at best only average control.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I find "fun" about Gravity is to pull most of the enemies with Wormhole to a corner and then start slaughtering them. That's very unique to Gravity experience.

If Wormhole has 20' radius = more fun!!!

[Austerity]

I still posit that Gravity is just the slowest maturing set. The problem is you need wormhole slotted heavily for recharge and singy out. Once you have those two things you have much greater control capabilities.

Also, TA and Storm synergize far greater than anything else. The ability to put down damage/debuff fields and pull more enemies into them at will without doing repel-herding is amazing. It's not just about extra controls but about wormhole being more than an aoe hold and the true go-to tool in the set.

[NekoNeko]

[ QUOTE ]
I still posit that Gravity is just the slowest maturing set. The problem is you need wormhole slotted heavily for recharge and singy out. Once you have those two things you have much greater control capabilities.

Also, TA and Storm synergize far greater than anything else. The ability to put down damage/debuff fields and pull more enemies into them at will without doing repel-herding is amazing. It's not just about extra controls but about wormhole being more than an aoe hold and the true go-to tool in the set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't overlook /Rad's synergy. Damage/debuffs as well, and even better, single-target control of the anchor with a hold and DS to protect it from those annoying "oooh, it glows! kill it!" teammates. ;)

[Virtual_Fighter]

[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

I really liked the idea of making Lift an AOE. I find this particular fiendish since Grav's Immob doesn't have the -KB component other Controller Immobs have. That would allow you to have some amount of reliable if very soft Control before Wormhole. Lock them down with Crushing Field, keep them more or less on their backs with Lift.

Of course, Lift would have to be moved back in the list (making it AOE would roughly make it the equal of Mind's Terrify) or have its Damage component reduced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very much this!

I'd definately have to roll up a Gravity Control character if Lift became AoE, and perhaps if Wormhole received a little larger radius and faster animation, such as simply the palm out animation.

[Oedipus_Tex]

Making Lift an AoE would be incredible.

[Virtual_Fighter]

Should simply make that a petition.

Lift -> AoE -> Now.

[Katten]

That might be too powerful in their eyes, what I don't understand is why dimension shift is a gravity power. What do different dimensions have to do with gravity? How bout instead it is a medium recharge semi spammable aoe knockdown click? that would be unique, and provide control.

The problems I have with gravity control are that several powers can be counterproductive. I love wormhole, but when you miss one in the teleport (and you're actually trying to move them) then you split the group and confuse people.

Then in dimension shift, it is a seemingly nice power, but again, often some don't intang, and there is absolutely no visible effect for the intangibility (that is really what's ridiculous).

[Virtual_Fighter]

I'm all with you on Dimension Shift.

But, an AoE Lift would definately be unique, as well as pure awesome. Just imagining lifting 6-8 mobs into the air and slamming them down to the ground at once sounds very fitting for gravity control. Little higher recharge, endurance cost, maybe little lower damage, whatever, it would be pretty epic imo.

Still, I'd be for anything replacing Dimension Shift completely, and seeing Wormhole receive a slightly larger radius, lower cast time as well.

But an AoE Lift... any of you ever play Dawn of War 2? Eldar Farseer's Psychic Storm? :p

[Reiraku]

Replace Dimension Shift with Fold Space.

It might not make the set better, but I'd lol.

[Screwyrabbit]

I can't agree enough with the idea of making Dimension Shift a toggle. Think about it, team is looking at a pretty hairy situation, grav troller is like "I'll lock down (more like suppressing them) while you guys carve away on the rest...tell me when you are ready for my group to be unlocked".

[Virtual_Fighter]

I hate you all. The idea of Lift becoming an AoE inspired me to waste my time fleshing out this; Gravity Manipulation (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Ideas&Number=13519963&Sea rchpage=1&Main=5402473&Words=+Virtual_Gamer&topic= &Search=true#Post13519963), for Blasters...

:p

[Redlynne]

Alternative Dimension Shift proposal

Rather than Dimension Shift being a Foe Intangible power ... make it an Ally Intangible toggle power with a LARGE PBAoE radius. This allows the Gravity Controller the necessary finesse to make this useful on teams. See Nebulous Form for Warshades for already extant mechanics to make this work. Use stealth-y "fade" aura effect for visual cue to players that they themselves are Intangible, along with "Intangible" word on screen above character when effect begins.

=====

Re-engineer Dimension Shift entirely

Redesign the Dimension Shift power to function like a "super knockUP" (as opposed to knockDOWN or knockBACK) version of Ice Slick (Ice Control). Rename the power Reverse Gravity and make it a Target Location click AoE, Mag 6.25 KnockUP. Power does damage on par with Crushing Field and simply "juggles" Foes in the AoE. Combine with Crushing Field (and Crush) to prevent Foes from escaping the Reverse Gravity AoE.

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
Rather than Dimension Shift being a Foe Intangible power ... make it an Ally Intangible toggle power with a LARGE PBAoE radius.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very bad idea in the making. Making NPCs unable to be defeated is bad enough, but making it so, as an Ally, I can't defeat ANY NPC or enemy? That's a bad, bad idea right there.

[ QUOTE ]
Redesign the Dimension Shift power to function like a "super knockUP" (as opposed to knockDOWN or knockBACK) version of Ice Slick (Ice Control).

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is better, and something I like. I don't see them changing it, but it's a great power idea that I would enjoy. Even if it did no damage, and simply was a location based knockup effect, it would be a good power for a new set.

[Redlynne]

[ QUOTE ]
Very bad idea in the making. Making NPCs unable to be defeated is bad enough, but making it so, as an Ally, I can't defeat ANY NPC or enemy? That's a bad, bad idea right there.

[/ QUOTE ]
As matters exist on live, you have ONE OPTION ... WAIT for the duration to expire, since Dimension Shift is a click power.

As proposed here, you'd have (at least) THREE OPTIONS to choose from ... tell the Gravity Controller to detoggle (also known as "Ready!" emote) and they obligingly detoggle ... or /kick. Either way, the power effects are removed from the team in very short order and you can resume engaging Foes. Third option, of course, is to wait for the (griefer) Gravity Controller to drain themselves of END ... at which point they can't maintain the toggle anyway due to rapidly rising cost, the intangibility drops, and they get /kick from team for being "unhelpful" to the team effort.

The point being, that instead of having only ONE way to deal with the intangibility (wait it out), the ability to cancel the effect (at any time) is in the hands of the player(s) ... giving you multiple ways of leveraging the power to the team's advantage.

Such as being able to Dimension Shift the whole team, wade into the middle of a big pile, and let the mobs all waste their alpha strikes on things they can't hit (ie. The Team). THEN you (the Gravity Controller) drop the Dimension Shift once the alpha threat is "disposed of" and your team responds with a retaliatory alpha strike of its own.

And that's before even including such things as making the Dimension Shift effect suppress for 10 seconds when you attack out of it ... kind of like how Travel Powers suppress their effects on target (ie. yourself) when you attack.

Using Dimension Shift offensively to help your team "get the drop" on mobs in PvE, rather than (merely) defensively as an "OH [censored]!!" power?

Bet you didn't think of that one, now did you? ;)

[Tsuji]

I like the knockup idea. It's really creative.

[OneWhoBinds]

Actually, I sort of like the self-effecting intagibility toggle for Dimensional Shift. Only, it doesn't need to be a PBAoE... just a self intagnibility toggle. One with a quick cast time, large End cost, and no set durration.

This would allow the Grav controller to act as an Alpha Eater (As above,), or use the power for a superior panic button, without much issue of griefing.

It still leaves Gravity without reasonable AoE mitigation until 26, but that would give it a suprior self mitigation power that I could see all kinds of benifits of...

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
The point being, that instead of having only ONE way to deal with the intangibility

[/ QUOTE ]

Why doesn't the options you mentioned for your suggested idea not work here? You can wait for the NPCs to stop being intangible (just as you can wait for the person forcing us to wait to run out) or you can kick the offender (just as it works for your idea). Additionally, you have the other options of fighting other NPCs that are not currently Intangible, something your suggested idea doesn't help with.

I did think of offensive abilities for idea, but I don't think it's "unique" qualities out weigh the fact that someone else is controlling the tangibility of my characters in PvE.

I'll admit, I'm a bit of a hard sell for Intangibility powers, as I find the effect quite annoying in all forms, avoiding it when possible. I can promise you though, that if I see a use for it that goes above and beyond all current uses for it, I'll be the first one voicing desire for it.

Keep working on it though, your second idea is one I love, and I do like where you're thinking.

[Redlynne]

[ QUOTE ]
You can wait for the NPCs to stop being intangible

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, you've not been on any of the PuGs I've been saddled with. You know it's bad when even the scrappers can't abide by the 6 second rule (known to all scrappers as, "if I haven't defeated something within the last 6 seconds, I'm clear to attack!").

And to be fair, I personally prefer the Reverse Gravity idea better myself anyway. ;)

[Mr_Right]

Who wouldn't like the Reverse Gravity idea? It fits so well with Gravity's power set, it's like it BELONGS there. The Immobs don't affect Knockback / down / up, and the set is lacking soft control early on (it's soft control was replaced with an attack), AND it has a very nice positioning power to maintain maximum use through Wormhole (seriously, drop the Reverse Gravity Field, Wormhole the spawn into it, Immobilize them there, and ta da! Locked down, stunned, knocked on their backs with Containment).

[Neeto]

I think they should put lift's damage scale on par with levitate much like they did so with the dominator version of lift.

[Malakim]

I'd just be happy if they did something with dimension shift (either make it a toggle) or swap it out for something else (anything else). The latter would certainly move gravity up a long way.

GDF could recharge a bit quicker to make up for the lack of AOE control, but otherwise I think it's OK.

[Peacemoon]

As I can't seem to edit the original post, here is an update:

[u]General[u]
i) Bring Wormhole to level 12, push Dimension Shift up to 26.
ii) Bring Wormhole to 18 and push Gravity Distortion Field to 26.

[u]Lift[u]
i) Turn lift into an AoE power.
ii) Turn lift into a cone power.
iii) Increase the damage to match levitate.

[u]Propel[u]
i) Make this power a cone power

[u]Dimension Shift[u]
i) Turn this power into a toggle.
ii) Make the power single target and give Gravity an alternative AoE control power.
iii) Turn this into a self toggle, so the player becomes intangible.

[u]Gravity Distortion Field[u]
i) Reduce recharge from 240 seconds to 120 seconds. (To compensate for lack of alternatives.)

[u]Wormhole[u]
i) Lower the activation time of Wormhole to something more reasonable.
ii) Increase the radius of wormhole to match other powers with similar effects.
iii) Consider turning the knockback to knockdown, atleast when unslotted.

[u]New power to replace Dimension Shift[u]
i) Location Targeted Knockup field. (Kind of the reverse of Ice Slick) Working title: "Reverse Gravity Field"
ii) Targeted AoE Knockup.

Lets keep this thread alive guys, as stated in the original post Gravity is a very cool and unique set to CoX, it would be lovely to make it effective and fun again like it was in the early days before anyone even thought about effectiveness. Also, please no suggestions for the return of "Fold Space" ;)

[SlimPickens]

With the changes to /Energy for Doms I have been patiently waiting for some changes to Grav/ so I can get her past 39 after 4 years of poor gameplay options.

I would welcome changes to Grav distortion (lower rech), Wormhole (lower activation plus increased radius), and undoubtably dimension shift (remove/replace/completely revamp) as these are the most glaring problems of the set IMO, but tweaking lift/propel would also be more then welcome- especially propel for doms... without containment its not good.

so /signed. Grav is a cool powerset which really needs some love to get on track/on par with the other control sets (especially for Doms).

[Redlynne]

[ QUOTE ]
[u]Propel[u]
i) Make this power a cone power

[/ QUOTE ]
You know what? I think I'd actually be happier with Propel as a Snipe attack. Something really long ranged, with an Interrupt. That, at the very least, would "excuse" its absurdly long animation time (and would let BaBs increase the projectile velocity to "Ludicrous Speed!"). As is, Propel is decidedly SHORT ranged compared to the rest of the set ... which is odd, since you'd think that thematically Gravity would prefer to function at longer ranges since that would allow more time/distance for more acceleration (ie. greater kinetic and momentum impacts).

Too bad the CoX game engine doesn't have any sort of damage enhance/decay with range mechanism built into it, where your attacks can become more/less effective depending on how far away the target is when the power is activated. I can think of all sorts of powers in different power sets where a range enhance/decay to damage would thematically be very appropriate. And you'd want to be able to write/program the mechanic to work "in both directions" so that damage can be reduced or increased as range to target increases.

[ QUOTE ]
[u]Dimension Shift[u]
i) Turn this power into a toggle.
ii) Make the power single target and give Gravity an alternative AoE control power.
iii) Turn this into a self toggle, so the player becomes intangible.

[/ QUOTE ]
iv) Turn this into a PBAoE toggle that affects teammates, allowing the power to be used both proactively and reactively, with the timing for usage and dispelling of the effect directly under player control.

[Rigel_Kent]

I think Wormhole should be high knockup instead of high knockback. I think I used that trick a few times in Portal....

[Felecia_Divine]

Hmmmm, i havent read all the posts but....My first character is a Grav/Emp (Deep Reach), my second character is my Dark Defender. I never had any problems with Deep.

The heal power is good, damage from Propel is good, and Lift takes the bag guy and throws him down for a second so i can have a breather. The control powers immobilize and hold, so i see absolutely no problem with this set. The pet helps hold opponents and distracts them, i solo nicely and am able to act as a great support as well.

I think the problem is most people are tank and scrapper minded. I am lousy at those, i can tank better with my Emps, all 4 of my mains are Emp based. (Dark Defender, Grav/Emp, Fire/Emp, and Emp/Rad). You just need to adjust your attack style.

I did not load up on IO's, i used SO's and made lvl 50 in 3 months doing missions and streetsweeping only - no TF's, PLing, or Farming. 8 people teams running constantly 2-4 hours a day for 3 months and you will have your 50 as well.

I owe Cobalt for helping me realize Grav/Emp works good against hamidon.

As for PvP - Neuronia taught me defenders and controllers can be very effective. Deep has Dimension Shift, Phase Shift and Hibernate (Epic Power), so it is easier for me to control the timing of my attacks and leaving my opponent unsure. For offence i added the Frost Blast and Ice Storm powers, this also gives me much improved damage! When i add special sets she will be a whole lot more dangerous.

[Felecia_Divine]

If you get Invisibility and Phase Shift by level 20 you can stealth Bloody Bay and even enter the villian base. You can also use invis to stealth TF's so dont laugh at these powers. Phase Shift is also good for triggering ambushes (Arachnos and Stalkers).
Dimension Shift is very useful for knocking out Hami Nodules but your allies might not like it, your Hold powers are better for this.

[Peacemoon]

Thanks Felecia, but I think you missed the point of the thread. Please reread my original post and also consider how much your happiness with empathy is dictating your happiness with gravity ;-)

[Captain_Freak]

Emp sux. get a real secondary

Gravity is fine, at the bottom of the heap. Its unwieldy doesnt mesh well with itself is toolboxy without any awesome..... leave it alone otherwise the devs will make all the other sets just like it

[Peacemoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Emp sux. get a real secondary

Gravity is fine, at the bottom of the heap. Its unwieldy doesnt mesh well with itself is toolboxy without any awesome..... leave it alone otherwise the devs will make all the other sets just like it

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that is true, saying that Gravity needs improvements does not mean the devs will nerf all control sets to be equally as bad. I think its pretty clear Gravity could use a few minor tweaks. This thread has spawned many good ideas as well.

[Brawlnstein]

[ QUOTE ]
Emp sux. get a real secondary

Gravity is fine, at the bottom of the heap. Its unwieldy doesnt mesh well with itself is toolboxy without any awesome..... leave it alone otherwise the devs will make all the other sets just like it

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a parody post or something? :confused:

[Rejolt]

I want to throw cars at people without doing for "theme."

Anything they can do to improve it I'll approve lol.

[Felecia_Divine]

Hmmm, i hear lots of ppl say Emps sux, but teams that do not have an emp with them die alot and waste alot of time. To balance a 8 person team Emps really do speed things up, you need a good mix of types. Plus as an Emp i am always in demand.

As for Gravity, i did not miss the point. MY point was the Holds are the main point of gravity powers and are useful for locking down groups. Having a pet that also helps lockdown and acts as a distraction is very useful. As a SUPPORT POWER gravity does very well.

If you want more damage and defence you get that from the EPIC power sets.

Each AT and power has their uses, you just have to understand what they do and what your playstyle is.

[Jibikao]

Dominator's Lift is a GOOD power now. It does decent damage and it's a great knockup. It's like a must-take power in Gravity Set.

Propel on the other hand.... T_T

[DarkSideLeague]

If I were gonna reorganize the set, it would be like this:

- Move Dimension Shift to 26.
- Move Gravity Distortion Field to 12.
- Move Wormhole to 18.

Done.

[Peacemoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, i hear lots of ppl say Emps sux, but teams that do not have an emp with them die alot and waste alot of time. To balance a 8 person team Emps really do speed things up, you need a good mix of types. Plus as an Emp i am always in demand.

As for Gravity, i did not miss the point. MY point was the Holds are the main point of gravity powers and are useful for locking down groups. Having a pet that also helps lockdown and acts as a distraction is very useful. As a SUPPORT POWER gravity does very well.

If you want more damage and defence you get that from the EPIC power sets.

Each AT and power has their uses, you just have to understand what they do and what your playstyle is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is you who is misunderstanding things. This thread has nothing to do with Empathy, it is a comparison between control sets amongst controllers and dominators.

I told you that your positive regard for gravity is probably because you are playing the Hero as a Empathy/Gravity defender, which is something you pretty much confirmed.

No offence, but please stop speaking with authority over something that you clearly do not understand.

[Peacemoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Dominator's Lift is a GOOD power now. It does decent damage and it's a great knockup. It's like a must-take power in Gravity Set.

Propel on the other hand.... T_T

[/ QUOTE ]

We really need to get lift sorted for Controllers, it should do the same damage as Mind Control's Levitate, there is no reason why it shouldn't.

It did originally by the way, just was nerfed early in the games life, perhaps even in Beta when it was worried that with Lift + Propel, Gravity would do too much damage.

My arguement to that is A) It wont do too much damage and B) If you design two powers in a control set who do very little but damage + knockback, they should do respectiful damage to make up for the control they are replacing.

[Schismatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, i hear lots of ppl say Emps sux, but teams that do not have an emp with them die alot and waste alot of time

[/ QUOTE ]
Utterly false and irrelevant to the discussion of Gravity Control.

While i do agree that Gravity could use some adjustment, and personally consider Dimension Shift a mostly useless power that is most likely the reason that Gravity has so little useful AoE, so far there's been nothing that suggests that the Devs feel the same way or have any plans to look at the set.

There have been some really interesting suggestions and analysis in this thread so far. Unfortunately i think that Gravity performs well enough that it's very low on the list of sets to be looked at by Castle.



P.S.- Empathy is a great set with some awesome buffs, but it is hardly required for success, survival or speed. In fact no single set is required for any content.

[MagicalAct]

Has anyone actually PMed Castle or any of the other Devs about this? I believe they see that Gravity is quite underperforming compared to the other control sets and the ideas that have been suggested in this thread can lead to bringing it up to par while still abiding by the cottage rule..Personally I'd take a power reorder of having AoE lift at 8, Wormhole at 12, Dimension Shift at 18, and Gravity distortion field at 26..That way Grav is on par with Ice and Earth as having a soft control and its every mob control at 12.

[BLZBlues]

Please correct if I'm wrong, but are you referring that gravity has soft control? I have a lvl 20 Grav/RAD troller and I rarely miss. In large mobs, I only miss the most 3 including the mob with minions, Lt.'s and bosses and I dont have a single power slotted with any enhancements. I have yet to understand how to use Dimension Shift b/c I cannot attack the target and neither can the target attack. Ignore this if this has nothing to do with your post. Earth in my expericne has great accuracy as well.

[MagicalAct]

Ok let me explain as I'm not quite sure if you knew what I meant by soft control..A soft control is a control power that does not grant containment and allows enemies to attack and move still..Soft controls however last quite a bit longer then Hard controls like AoE holds or disorients and are usually centered around locations for example Ice slick, Earthquake and quicksand but as well as arctic air, and terrify. Although they don't grant containment which is usually associated with lockdown they are quite useful in control sets for mitigating damage..At the moment Grav has no soft control..What I'm supporting is the change to lift for it to become AoE or a cone with an upped recharge and endurance cost in order to become a soft control to bring it up to par with the other sets.

[Peacemoon]

Some dev feedback here would be lovely :-)

[Schismatrix]

What i'd like is if Going Rogue added a new game mechanic that allows critters to be pulled to a location/target, not just repelled from it.

Then i'd suggest replacing Dimension Shift with Collapsar, a large radius AoE that pulls enemies to the target. :eek:

[Peacemoon]

Do people think that Dimension Shift is bad enough that it could be seen as an exception to the 'cottage rule'? (god I hate that name)

I'm really hoping we can make some progress with Gravity Control, it really deserves some attention and a bit of an overhaul.

[Psiphon]

Change Dimension Shift to a toggle with a maximum duration of 20 seconds and give it a stun that builds magnitude.
upto 10 seconds - minions
10 -20 seconds - lieutenants
20 when it detoggles - bosses

Makes it readily avaible as per Stalagmites but if the team is prepared to wait, some additional functionality and uniqueness to the set.

Wormhole
Give it a maximum total tunnel length between entry and exit points but no fixed distance for each from yourself. In this way you can either use it to send targets away from you (as now))or bring them from a far distance to you.
This would add additional utility

[StratoNexus]

Do people think that Dimension Shift is bad enough that it could be seen as an exception to the 'cottage rule'? (god I hate that name)

I'm really hoping we can make some progress with Gravity Control, it really deserves some attention and a bit of an overhaul.
I have and occasionally use the power and I still think it could (should, even) be changed.

[Seraphael]

I wholeheartedly agree with the original poster. Gravity is the weak sibling of Controlers (along with Mind) and is in need of some developer TLC.

Here are my suggestions:

Lift: Change damage scalar as they did for Dominators so it compares better with Levitate. At present Lift is even worse than the pool power Air Superiority and Gravity Controllers are forced to take one of two very skippable primary powers at level 1 (Crush or Lift).

1. Air Superiority: Dmg: 30.6, Rech: 4, Cast: 1.5
2. Lift: Dmg: 24.5, Rech: 6, Cast: 1.03 (damage incurs after a couple seconds delay)

Propel: Damage is sufficient as is. Lower animation time somewhat to limit the amount of corpse blasting on teams. Change feedback (on hit and miss) so it comes at the end of the activation and not the beginning. Knowing you'll miss somehow makes the seconds it takes to animate fully extremely long.

Dimension Shift: Turn into toggle. Decrease radius of effect. I absolutely love the idea of making it a sort of reverse Earthquake/Ice Slick power with knock up instead of knockdown though! The reverse repel idea also has a lot of merit. Both suggestions have a much better thematic fit than an intangible power.

Wormhole: Increase radius to 20. This is still less than other similar powers in other sets.

[ketch]

I think the most likely change for Dimension Shift is the one suggested over on the dom boards. Reduce the duration of the intangible period and add a stun/fear to the end of it (because other dimensions are spooky). I also don't think it would be terribly detrimental for it to simply be made a single target phase. It would lose some functionality as a panic button, but would gain a great deal more in strategic value by letting you zero in on troublesome mobs without splitting an entire spawn.

[Peacemoon]

I wholeheartedly agree with the original poster. Gravity is the weak sibling of Controlers (along with Mind) and is in need of some developer TLC.

Here are my suggestions:

Lift: Change damage scalar as they did for Dominators so it compares better with Levitate. At present Lift is even worse than the pool power Air Superiority and Gravity Controllers are forced to take one of two very skippable primary powers at level 1 (Crush or Lift).

1. Air Superiority: Dmg: 30.6, Rech: 4, Cast: 1.5
2. Lift: Dmg: 24.5, Rech: 6, Cast: 1.03 (damage incurs after a couple seconds delay)

Propel: Damage is sufficient as is. Lower animation time somewhat to limit the amount of corpse blasting on teams. Change feedback (on hit and miss) so it comes at the end of the activation and not the beginning. Knowing you'll miss somehow makes the seconds it takes to animate fully extremely long.

Dimension Shift: Turn into toggle. Decrease radius of effect. I absolutely love the idea of making it a sort of reverse Earthquake/Ice Slick power with knock up instead of knockdown though! The reverse repel idea also has a lot of merit. Both suggestions have a much better thematic fit than an intangible power.

Wormhole: Increase radius to 20. This is still less than other similar powers in other sets.

Great information regarding Air Superiority, I am assuming this is correct ;)

Your suggestions are good and perhaps less then I would argue for, perhaps there is some middle ground but first we need Gravity to actually get some attention!

[Seraphael]

The numbers are taken from both Mid's and verified with Red Tomax/City of Data, so I assume they're not both wrong in the exact same manner. ;)

The only reason I held back on a few powers was that I wanted not to look like I wanted balance AND a bag of chips. I really do consider your aggregated list of suggestions fair and balanced. I fear the set will continue to linger in obscurity though since as a whole the Controller AT is doing great. The developers seem more interested in making new content rather than fixing old anyway.

[Peacemoon]

I think there is some appetite to fix old stuff, but as Gravity Control falls under "just about workable" and as you said Controllers as a whole are pretty overpowered, there is less of a need to make deserved changes to the set. :(

[_Mini_]

What about kill the cottage rule for once and make Grav a better powerset?

It was asked in the past and i think is the best idea for us if they gave a "Blackhole" power that give a reverse repel (packing all mob in a single spot) with some -recharge in place of Dimension Shift.
But, if making this new code is too difficult i'll like as the other Dimension Shift as a toggle ç____ç

[Black_Marrow]

As a long-time grav/ player, I can certainly understand your frustration :eek:

IMHO, the only real change grav/ needs to be more competitive with other control primaries would be the following -

Gravity Distortion Field

1. decrease recharge time from 240 seconds to 120 seconds



I doubt they'll do this. To keep the power on par with the other AoE holds they'd need to change them all.

[Seraphael]

I doubt they'll do this. To keep the power on par with the other AoE holds they'd need to change them all.

Except that of course as so much else, it's not on really par with the other AoE holds as is.

Earth: Larger radius, longer duration, faster cast
Fire: Larger radius, faster cast
Ice: Larger radius
Mind: Similar
Plant: Slower cast

[ketch]

Except that of course as so much else, it's not on really par with the other AoE holds as is.

Earth: Larger radius, longer duration, faster cast
Fire: Larger radius, faster cast
Ice: Larger radius
Mind: Similar
Plant: Slower cast

I'll agree that the AOE holds aren't all on the same level, but that's a bit of an over simplification. Those that boast a large AoE do so at the cost of range. GDF is on par with the other ranged AoE holds in it's family, Total Domination and Vines. (Volcanic Gases is an odd ball and a monster not welcome in civil dialog.)

[Leo_G]

<QR>

An idea I posted in a Dom thread:

Dimension Shift- Targeted summon pet with a 15-20ft range that constantly casts a short duration intangibility effect on *anyone* in range, friend or foe. Basically creates a field/bubble cage match, only players/foes inside can attack eachother. Foes/allies outside cannot affect enemies inside unless they enter the area and foes/allies inside cannot affect anyone outside unless they leave the area. I'd imagine the only effects that could be cast across the barrier are similar targeted summon powers like Blizzard, Rain of Fire, Oil Slick, Freezing Rain, Carrion Creepers, etc.

I believe it would provide a lot of AoE control. You can effectively split spawns and switch between which ones you're affecting, or if the majority of the enemies are inside/outside then that's a majority of enemies that can't fight back if you jump in/out.

Add some flavor to the power: The Gravity control user that is within his own pocket dimension makes the rules within it so his def/res/acc/dmg is buffed while standing inside it.

Oh, and if 2 or more Gravity control users use dimension shift on the exact same area, everything inside is instantly killed and all player characters within have their characters deleted :p

[EDIT]Thinking further on applications of such a power, this would seem broken in PvP...it'd force close combat as anything outside the range of this power does nothing...A Grav/FF controller inside his Dimension Shift with Force Bubble on? That'd be pretty annoying.

[Constant_Motion]

I like the idea of making lift an aoe knockup with a slightly longer recharge :p