Just 1 more reason not to take Phase Shift!

[Eric_Linstone]

Hamidon can now hit you with it on!
So now it's like raiding against police drones!
What's the story behind this? His blasts are outa phase? Or we needed something else to make people not take phase shift? :p

[Steel_Inferno]

The primary reason was probably to prevent using a PA team to tank Hami. The current Hami design would be far too easy if PA could take aggro. All you'd need is 2 or 3 PA droppers, and then send in a snipe team to take out blues with no risk. With the blues gone, the yellows become much easier, and a hold team could rock the greens without worrying about any significant incoming fire.

[Redlynne]

Hamidon only exists as a "challenge" by cheating almost every aspect of the game.

Next question ... :p

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon only exists as a "challenge" by cheating almost every aspect of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, maybe that's got something to do with the fact that it's actually reasonable for a team of 8 people to take on between 4 and 8 level 54 AVs. What do you expect when there are 50 people available?

I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon only exists as a "challenge" by cheating almost every aspect of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a prefectly reasonable point to make and the poster in question didn't raise it as positive or negative.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon only exists as a "challenge" by cheating almost every aspect of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a prefectly reasonable point to make and the poster in question didn't raise it as positive or negative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Context is helpful. Look around at the poster's other posts in the last two days.

I think I explained why I don't think it's a reasonable point to make. Hamidon has to deal with a scenario that no other mob does. I don't see any issue with it "cheating" the normal rules to do so.

Bosses that have "godmode" clicks that come back every 2 minutes and have no end crash? Mobs that can attack from phase shift? No, I don't like those things. Hamidon? I'm OK with Hamidon.

I've not yet seen anyone on the forums posit a design for an entity that can take on 50 players with consistent challenge that never breaks any rule the players have. I'll be very impressed if I do see it. I'll be even more impressed if it's something that the devs could implement without something like engine changes or other time-consuming modifications, meaning they'd have to prioritize their development time around it.

Until we see that, I'll gladly accept hamidon working like it does, and no, I don't see the point in griping about how it "cheats". And yes, because of the posters tone everywhere else, I do take the above post to which I responded as a gripe.

[Eric_Linstone]

Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[Axterix]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've always felt that phased things should be able to hit phased things. Then they could add some phased out mitos to hami, ones who can only hit phased targets :)

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]
He assimilated a Police Drone into his organic matrix :D

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got Dev Pwned ;)

[Aura_Familia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got Dev Pwned ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, srsly

[Poison_Pill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got Dev Pwned ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, srsly

[/ QUOTE ]

Dev slapped.

[Kamendae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've always felt that phased things should be able to hit phased things. Then they could add some phased out mitos to hami, ones who can only hit phased targets :)

[/ QUOTE ]

QF making sure this doesn't get lost.

I like this idea much better, personally.

Kam

[StarkFist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anime FTW (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094625/) :D

[Kamendae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Not *that* implausible (in the comics genre) - look at Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_%28comics%29). Or Sylar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylar). Hell, we *know* bits of Hammy have mutagenic properties (HOs, anyone?) - is it that big of a stretch to think he can mutate himself too?

Kam

[Blue_Harriet]

What frustrates me is the seemingly unavoidable group wipes that happen whe Hamidon "blooms."

[Boarding_Party]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[/ QUOTE ]And flying people shooting laser beams out of their eyes are plausible?

[Invincible One]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[/ QUOTE ]And flying people shooting laser beams out of their eyes are plausible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course! I do it all the time.....

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
What frustrates me is the seemingly unavoidable group wipes that happen whe Hamidon "blooms."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of that either.

People have found ways to avoid them, but they're not easy.

[FuzzyWonder22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[PsychicKitty]

[ QUOTE ]
The primary reason was probably to prevent using a PA team to tank Hami. The current Hami design would be far too easy if PA could take aggro. All you'd need is 2 or 3 PA droppers, and then send in a snipe team to take out blues with no risk. With the blues gone, the yellows become much easier, and a hold team could rock the greens without worrying about any significant incoming fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actualy i did some experiments and the taunt effects dont really matter much and also the fact that the mitos and hammidon fire rapidly make it fire at multiple targets now on and beyond just the taunt users.

In the last raid, no matter how many taunt players where below taunting....the hammidon still shot every one else in addition to the taunting players.

So um you might be right about the idea behind it.....but in actual changes to the abilites of the hammidon itself and its mitochondria....those changes prevent that from happening.

Also you might notice hammidon now kills the phantom army and the decoys created by the phantasm.

I have not checked this though but i think that actualy means the text for those powers is now wrong...as it specificaly states they are indestructable....also means the phase shift text is wrong as well....although i should check it...i think it used to say the player's body is in another dimension and that they cannot effect things in this reality nor can anything effect them.

Bu then i think alot of people are not looking at another possibility......this change could mean that their may be other uses for phase shift in the future....maybe this is the start of something that has been suggested for a long time of phased targets hitting phased targets...etc.

[The_Centurion]

No kidding.

Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.

Lazy answer.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.

So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.

But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.

[San_Diablo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Castle, but while I agree with the idea that Hami should be able to ignore phasing, I think that it's long overdue to fix phase powers so that they're useful in the first place.

[Aramar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.

So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.

But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Blink)
So you only took phase shift to deal with Hamidon? If so, then yes, it makes phase shift useless to you because of one specific raid level monster.

I still get a great kick out of using it in the rest of the game, personally.

[Artillery_MKV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.

So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.

But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting old really sucks, don't it?

[_____]

[ QUOTE ]
A wizard did it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for that, Castle. Thanks.

[Monkey_King]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a fan of that either.

People have found ways to avoid them, but they're not easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's the point.

[Redlynne]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.

If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.

Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.

Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.

You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.

And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ... :p

[CatMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just F-in' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...

... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.

[/ QUOTE ]

No more implausible than evolution in general. :p Just think of Hami as the Hopeful Monster who did.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.

So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.

But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Blink)
So you only took phase shift to deal with Hamidon? If so, then yes, it makes phase shift useless to you because of one specific raid level monster.

I still get a great kick out of using it in the rest of the game, personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I've *never* had a toon with phase shift. I came close a very long time ago as I thought it might be fun to have, but after all the stealth powers were nerfed into uselessness I couldn't see having to take 2 useless powers to get it. Then of course PS itself was nerfed into virtual uselessness with the 30 second timer, so there was zero appeal to me after that.

So when do my characters get to "adapt" to be able to hit phase shifted foes like Carnie Illusionists (who, mind you, seem to have adapted long ago to be able to attack us while phased, something else we can't do)? Or adapt to hit Nemesis clones that are in PFF (cause we all know foes adapted long ago to be able to hit us thru our PFF).

Whole lotta foe adapting going on, very very little player adapting going on. Cause I'd give my right nut if my defenders could "adapt" and learn how to turn their hands around and use their teammate-only buffs on themselves. Seems simple enough, yet still manages to escape our grasps even after 4 years of training, leveling, evolving, and "adapting". But in the blink of an eye Hami learns how to fire multi-phasic attacks. Geez, he must really be one super smart glob of goo. Cause golly, my trollers still can't figure out how to protect themselves from being mezzed after years and years of doing it to other people. I guess we heroes (and villains) are just really really REALLY slow learners.

And there we are, back again, as to why this game, at best, will never be *great*, simply mediocre...

Anyone want to place bets on when the first round of IO nerfs will hit? I give it 2 weeks.

Oh, and just as an aside, what exactly do you accomplish with PS that you consider "a great kick"? With an obnoxiously long animation time, delayed activation time, and 30 second timer, it's barely useful as an "oh crap" power (by the time you realize you're in trouble you're often dead before you can get it up and running), and exactly how much fun can you have in 30 seconds?

Unless of course...

/em completely_unwarranted_and_highly_offensive_person al_attack on

...you're just one of those guys who frequently takes less than 30 seconds to get his rocks off?

/em completely_unwarranted_and_highly_offensive_person al_attack off

[FuzzyWonder22]

[ QUOTE ]
No kidding.

Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.

Lazy answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah no kidding. At this point I'd have more respect for them if they just said "because we felt like doing it this way." :p

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.

So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.

But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting old really sucks, don't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It does indeed. But continued dev BS like this sucks worse.

[Aramar]

So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[Crosis]

/sarcasm about positron and cryptics issue designs "Actually its too time consuming, uses all there resources, and would push back there 3 a year issue releases (i guess in THERE world, a year is 18 months long, as the past 4 issues have NOT followed this standard) if we were to develop a better reason as too why organism thats devouring the earth can hit someone whos halfway into another dimension...."

[CatMan]

What? Devs don't get to RP? Common, give Castle a little creative leeway in at least come up with something witty. I am pretty certain the conversation would still berate the devs if he came out and said: 'cause we wanted to make him more challenging'.

[Kamendae]

[ QUOTE ]
(i guess in THERE world, a year is 18 months long, as the past 4 issues have NOT followed this standard)

[/ QUOTE ]

Issue 1: 6/30/2004
Issue 2: 9/16/2004
Issue 3: 1/4/2005
Issue 4: 5/4/2005
Issue 5: 8/31/2005
Issue 6: 10/31/2005
Issue 7: 5/6/2006
Issue 8: 11/28/2006
Issue 9: 5/2/2007

The only block of three that didn't hit "three per year" was 6-8, which was 13, not 18, months. And overall, they're still right on "three per year", given that we've just had the three-year anniversary and nine issues within that time.

Kam

[Poison_Pill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hamidon is going to evolve and learn like the Borg. Hamidon by design is the hardest task in the game. Designed to take 50 L50's 2-2.5 hours to complete roughly the same time as the RSF/STF. When I and one /kin corrupter can take down most AV's 50 AT's will need a serious challange. So phase shift does not protect you. Big deal, the Devs have given you EoE's to pop for 60 seconds of protection with no recharge time.

[ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Learn to use a hex editor. Muhahahaha

Poison Pill

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[Real_Boss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No kidding.

Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.

Lazy answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah no kidding. At this point I'd have more respect for them if they just said "because we felt like doing it this way." :p

[/ QUOTE ]
Hamidon was once a zealous scientist named Hamidon Pasilima. Using hideous dark magic and his own genetic genius , he transformed himself into the god-like monster that would spawn the Devouring Earth and threaten the entire world.

Doesn't it stand to reason that Hamidon can adapt quicker then any other thing in the game, becuase Hamidon Pasilima desinged him self like that.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."

So forgive me if my bile and vitriol level is currently up to my eyeballs. And where oh where was this juicy little gem listed in the patch notes? Or was the intent to "accidently" leave it out ("the unpaid interns that arrive at our offices on the short bus every morning who are responsible for compiling the patch notes are only human, mistakes are bound to occur... and occur... and occur...") so those who use PS, thinking they're protected for at least 30 seconds, get a nice debt surprise (reminder, not all people who fight Hami are level 50, and being outside you get full debt when you die).

And I did ask you, as someone who admittedly has, uses, and enjoys PS, what exactly you find it useful for, and I got no answer. Cause honesly, all sarcasm and "<bzzzt>bitter, party of one<bzzzt>" aside, I am actually curious. Cause as far as I can tell it's pretty much been resigned to "oh crap" status, which made it perfect for Hami raids in the past. So removing that ability just turned the Phase Shift Utility Handbook from a small pamphlet into a single page tri-fold (and fully expect it to someday be no more than a post it note with the word "NONE" in large sans-serif type).

And as another aside, has anyone tested this with other PS-like powers, such as Quantum Flight?

And here's an interesting (tho completely rhetorical) question: if you activate Quantum Flight and PS at the same time, do you return to normal space or do you become tri-phasic? I'm guessing if you can actually do it that Hami damage would be tripled cause you'd take damage in all 3 planes of existence simultaneously. Not that it matters anyway, cause one hit is usually sufficient to kill most toons outright; 3 is just, well, overkill.

Wait... am I imagining things or did I just see someone with a large object labeled "Ye Ole Ban Stick" heading my way?

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're enjoying this, aren't you Castle?

I would like to add that our character did just adapt, its called inventions.

Brutes adapted in I7 with Electric melee and electric Armor

Defenders and controllers adapted earlier with Trick Arrow and Sonic Resonance.

Where would the fun in this game be if it wasn't a challenge?

[BackAlleyBrawler]

Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.

Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution. Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.

We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[Rajani Isa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just F-in' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've always felt that phased things should be able to hit phased things. Then they could add some phased out mitos to hami, ones who can only hit phased targets :)

[/ QUOTE ]

QF making sure this doesn't get lost.

I like this idea much better, personally.

Kam

[/ QUOTE ]

So why can Mr. Superspeeder over there who phases through objects by accelerating his molecules, etc, hit my guy who becomes a living shadow, or enters the ethereal plane?

[The_Centurion]

Respecs and slotting do not in any way allow us to adapt in a way that completely invalidates a Power or Pool of Powers. Inventions aren't going to let us do that either. Powers aren't built with the idea that an Ice Toller should be fairly safe from Ice and Cold attacks while taking additional damage from Fire / Heat. Respecs don't allow us to alter our Primary or Secondary lists other that to pick a power at a different time or ignore one in favor of another.

In the Comic books all of the Big Bad Guys have a weakness. We've seen where swarms of Heroes have hit them with everything they have only to be left laying scattered across the fields in need of serious medical care. They are beaten because they have a weakness that some lucky and/or smart Hero discovers and figures out a way to exploit.

Wanna make Hami a challenge? Give him a pool of weakness and have him spawn with a random weakness each time that will require the Heroes to find it and exploit it to win. There won't be a "perfect team" because you won't know what you really need to take him down going in. It will still be one hell of a fight but I think it will feel more like a Super Hero / Comic Book battle and less like the Battle of Thermopylea. Players will feel like they've beaten the baddest thing going and it will never be the same twice .

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
No kidding.

Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.

Lazy answer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because Ivory Tower answers are better ;)

[Broomhilda]

This whole thread is making me lmao.

Why would you even do Hami now?

The time isn't worth the reward anymore. Not when you can do the STF with only 8 people and you can do it twice to get your HO and Rare, and do it in a whole lot less time. Some may say its for the recipies but just doing missions will get you those.

The time to organize and get a raid going alone and youll be done or half way through the STF, much less tring to get 50 ppl togather to kill all the monsters and then fight hami. O man ya not even worth it.

And with the new IO's and sets why even worry about HO's they are barly par anymore. You can make IO's that are just as good or better than HO's and the bonuses from the sets in your powers far out dose HO's.

Hami is just like the Octipus in IP, Kraken in PP, and the big stone guy in Creys Folly to name a few. GMs running around and not worth the time or effort to kill. Hell getting the badges is the only reason to even do them anymore.

I must agree with one of the other posters. The devs have nerfed the player toons and buffed the NPC's all the while telling us well its easier to take to much and then buff up than the other way around. And you know ill buy that but.... were are the buffs and fixes to the sets that way under preform. O like claws for scrappers, really I undestand that they just "fixed" claws but really wow its such a under preformer to all the other sets that ill never build another one. And to those that built there claws scrappers before the "fix" WOW my hat is off to you. Or oo lets get into Dark Blast only one power is really worth getting in that set and thats the tenticels. I mean talking about a set that underpreforms.

The leadership at Cryptic is so worried about getting to work on the new issues that they are not even fixing the problems that are already there and have been sence the game started. Im sry but im getting tired of the "well theres so much on our plate" answer it makes me sick. The only one that makes me more mad is when you report a bug and get "Well were sorry you are having problems and we are sry to see you go. We hope that you will come back and join us at another time." At no time do you threaten to leave or anything. I mean what the hell kind of answer is that to a bug report. I have gotten 5 of those emails and now one of my SG mates just got the same letter. I mean really what kind of Co. says please help us and report your bugs and when you do tell you to quit????

As for the stealth pool well that has been broken for a while in PvE and according to the tell I got from Castle they arnt even talking about much less taking action to fix it.

Not tring to be negative, rant, troll, or flame the devs or anything like that, im saying that maybe they need to reexamine a few things. I will say in closing that I9 has added a lot of good stuff to CoX and will make the game more enjoyable but in the same breath Ill say get ready for the next round of nerfs because after looking at the level of power you will be able to run a toon at with the new sets theres lots coming.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.

If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.

Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.

Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.

You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.

And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ... :p

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.

Hamidon aside, there are many, many foes in the game that are still using either pre-release and/or un-nerfed versions of player powers. Foes have always been able to side-step the rules that players are forced to abide by.

When was the last time you saw a flying foe such as a freak or longbow get slowed to a crawl after attacking you? And when was the last time you were able to move at a greatly enhanced running speed while disoriented?

Why can foes instantly lock on to you and queue up multiple attacks before your alpha attack even finishes its animation/activation cycle?

Why can one foe smoke grenade completely floor the entire team's perception even after they attack, yet player versions lose what pathetically little effect they have as soon as an attack is launched?

Why do foes keep getting upgraded status-type effects that players, by and large, have no countenance for? Sorry _Castle_, but I can respec and reslot until doomsday and still never be able to hit a phase-shifted Carnie, gain a meaningful resistance to psionic attacks on my INV/SS tank, be able to run out of 10 applications of Artemis caltrops, be able to fully resist a Sapper's end drain attack, or protect myself from multiple Longbow -resistance sonic grenades that apparently are many times stronger than the un-enhanceable player versions.

Why can foes still attack even though they have no endurance, but I can't even fart when I've run dry?

Why does a simple no-name minion's cheap Wal-Mart sledgehammer do as much or more damage than my 3-SO slotted "high damage" attack?

The list is virtually endless. For a game that's supposed to be a Super Hero RPG, they sure go far outta their way to make us feel most decidedly un-super. And again, no amount of respeccing and reslotting is ever going to change that.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
Respecs and slotting do not in any way allow us to adapt in a way that completely invalidates a Power or Pool of Powers. Inventions aren't going to let us do that either. Powers aren't built with the idea that an Ice Toller should be fairly safe from Ice and Cold attacks while taking additional damage from Fire / Heat. Respecs don't allow us to alter our Primary or Secondary lists other that to pick a power at a different time or ignore one in favor of another.

In the Comic books all of the Big Bad Guys have a weakness. We've seen where swarms of Heroes have hit them with everything they have only to be left laying scattered across the fields in need of serious medical care. They are beaten because they have a weakness that some lucky and/or smart Hero discovers and figures out a way to exploit.

Wanna make Hami a challenge? Give him a pool of weakness and have him spawn with a random weakness each time that will require the Heroes to find it and exploit it to win. There won't be a "perfect team" because you won't know what you really need to take him down going in. It will still be one hell of a fight but I think it will feel more like a Super Hero / Comic Book battle and less like the Battle of Thermopylea. Players will feel like they've beaten the baddest thing going and it will never be the same twice .

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear Hami is weak against Essence of the Earth... maybe not the Kryptonite you were looking for, but sometimes the best offense is a good defense.

[Chyron HR]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the first and only video game you've ever played?

I mean, that's the only possible reason I can think of for this endless outrage you have at the notion that the final boss of CoX is more powerful than the players.

[Broomhilda]

[ QUOTE ]
Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your going to give a free respec everytime you make a change to a power, Enh, or to the game or make respec trials no limit???

Sry Castle not tring to be mean but got to call you on that one, bad answer!

O and ty Castle and BackAlly for getting on and posting I know you guys are busy:)

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're enjoying this, aren't you Castle?

I would like to add that our character did just adapt, its called inventions.

Brutes adapted in I7 with Electric melee and electric Armor

Defenders and controllers adapted earlier with Trick Arrow and Sonic Resonance.

Where would the fun in this game be if it wasn't a challenge?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it, it's NOT a challenge. A challenge implies strategy; assessing your foe's strength and weaknesses, forming a team with precisely the right combination of powers needed for the task at hand, and a reasonable ability or plan to deal with whatever the foes are going to throw at you.

But this is virtually impossible within the structure of CoX. You can't reliably find players with just the right combinations of powers -- hell, you don't even have a way of knowing what sets a player has before they're on your team unless they're within 100 yards of you. And what are you supposed to do between missions? Kick the "unneeded" players and look for more appropriate ones based upon what you're going to fight next?

As I've stated previously, how exactly do you counter foe abilities for which there is no reliable countenance? This isn't a challenge, it's frustration and futility.

And honestly, most pick up groups aren't interested in spending time analyzing mission structure, summing up their foes, crafting detailed fight plans... they just want to run in and kill things, heal up, then run into the next room and kill things. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The excitement of playing this game is the frenzy you experience with that type of gameplay. Strategy, by and large, is slow and boring. Running in and decimating everything in sight like a well-oiled killing machine is fun and exciting.

And seriously, even if you are really into strategy and planning, with so many foe effects that side-step the rules, are blatantly over-powered, and/or have virtually no way of mitigating, strategy inevitably comes down to stocking up on massive quantities of inspirations as your only realistic means of getting the job done. But for me, even though I am glad to have completed the task at hand, I find such encounters to be largely unfulfilling; having no choice other than to "cheat" my way thru to success.

[Haetron]

[ QUOTE ]
We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, when are we going to see a particular encounter that renders buff/debuff near pointless to have? Because between both games, we're going 4 for 4 on end game content where armor is fairly worthless beyond 1-2 players on your team.

It's just getting a bit tiresome that any time you guys want to design something challenging or make the game more challenging, the first thing you do is groin kick the Defense/Resist sets.

[Rajani Isa]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon aside, there are many, many foes in the game that are still using either pre-release and/or un-nerfed versions of player powers. Foes have always been able to side-step the rules that players are forced to abide by.

[/ QUOTE ]

nerf Nemesis Vengeance, please.

[Obsidius]

So besides Phase Shift, what else has changed in the raid?

Hami has always done untyped damage. But now, it can be mitigated by EoEs.

Tanks can still taunt the Hami.

There are fewer mitos with less hit points.

[ QUOTE ]
And honestly, most pick up groups aren't interested in spending time analyzing mission structure, summing up their foes, crafting detailed fight plans... they just want to run in and kill things, heal up, then run into the next room and kill things. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The excitement of playing this game is the frenzy you experience with that type of gameplay. Strategy, by and large, is slow and boring. Running in and decimating everything in sight like a well-oiled killing machine is fun and exciting.

[/ QUOTE ]
These re both personal opinions, not canon. Many players enjoy the challenge of strategy, and the victory that comes from it. Seeing some of the posts during closed beta was proof of this.

I find PUGs that just run in and defeat everything pretty monotonous, actually. Run in, wipe mobs, wash, rinse, repeat. Sounds like a Drek map to me :)

If players were really not that cerebral, why create Inventions and IO sets? Why have crafting in any MMO for that matter? Why do other MMOs have raid content? Obviously someone must enjoy thinking in a game :p

So you lost a trump card, and the Phantom Army can't single-handedly tank Hami. Why the surprise? Sounds kinda broken to me when I put it in those terms, IMHO.

There are strategies that work without relying on PA. There were successful Hami raids on Test once a strategy was found.

The sky isn't falling.

[Axterix]

[ QUOTE ]
So why can Mr. Superspeeder over there who phases through objects by accelerating his molecules, etc, hit my guy who becomes a living shadow, or enters the ethereal plane?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the exact same reason Mr. Superspeeder who accelerates his molecules to match an enemy or an enemy who enters the same plane of living shadow currently cannot.

Limitations of the system.

Personally, I think it'd make phase shift more interesting if the phase shifted can hit the phase shifted. Make phase shift a useful power when fighting carnies. And it'd add an interesting new twist for the PvPers as well.

Also, since phase shift would no longer be complete invulnerability, it'd be more acceptable to make such powers last longer and/or be more common.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they could do that.

They can do anything they damn well want, ultimately.

I don't see them doing that for non-endgame content, because I think it would be stupid.

You may thing Hamidon's design is stupid. I don't, for reasons stated. If things that poke through phase shift and hibernate start showing up in door missions then I'll be on the bandwagon with you.

Simply because they did it in this particular case doesn't mean they're dense enough to do it everywhere.

Personally, I think claims that the new Hamidon is harder are a crock. The new Hamidon reqiuires greater coordination and active participation. If you were there to put powers on auto, then yeah, the new raid is harder for you. I always participated and paid attention at raids, meaning I was one of the people enabling all the akf-ers to get their HO. Nothing much changes for me in the new raid, except perhaps that I will die more often.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread is making me lmao.

Why would you even do Hami now?

The time isn't worth the reward anymore. Not when you can do the STF with only 8 people and you can do it twice to get your HO and Rare, and do it in a whole lot less time. Some may say its for the recipies but just doing missions will get you those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because everyone isn't in this for the most efficient way. Because I predict that, in around 8 weeks time, there will be little difference in the time it takes to do a raid or an RSF/STF. Because not everyone has a team to do the STF/RSF on, or has the right AT to get one from people running them who are frequently unnecessarily elitest about who they admit.

Because you can do both and get two HOs or two recipies.

Because beating on anything with 50 people is cool.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a fan of that either.

People have found ways to avoid them, but they're not easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only means of escaping them currently known is trigger-reflex use of teleport. Since the raid isn't supposed to depend on single-power gimmicks, either we don't know the right way to get away/survive or the point is that there's just supposed to be a whole lot of death.

If the answer is the latter, I disagree with it as an encounter design. "You chose some more popular travel power, or don't have a team TP-er on team, so you lose." If this is the real situation, then I think it would be better if there more of a delay before the mitos attacked, to at least give attentive folk "stuck with" with more traditional travel powers a hope of escaping.

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in who order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, when are we going to see a particular encounter that renders buff/debuff near pointless to have? Because between both games, we're going 4 for 4 on end game content where armor is fairly worthless beyond 1-2 players on your team.

It's just getting a bit tiresome that any time you guys want to design something challenging or make the game more challenging, the first thing you do is groin kick the Defense/Resist sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once upon a time I had phase shift

Then the devs nerfed it with a limited time it can run and a long cooldown... I got rid of it

I left the game for a long time cause I was just tired of constant nerfage

I came back recently for some simplistic gameplay during my offtime

More nerfs are not a surprise. This dev team has never learned how to make things fun and challenging without nerfing and they never will. They did however find a nice spokesperson to give snippy quips when people rail about them. Good show.

Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.

I remember when controllers aoe controls were nerfed. People said oh but you have containment now... I said yea and when EPP's get nerfed down the road what then? Low and behold as I predicted the EPP's got nerfed into oblivion but did controllers get anything back for it? Nope

Inventions are nice right now... and set bonuses are a possible way to recover some semblance of fun back... But what about down the road when we are having too much fun again? What happens when inventions get nerfed? Suddenly set bonuses will start to adhere to ED so you can only use them to max out certain effects with less slotting as opposed to breaking the barriers of ED.

Mark my words it WILL happen. These are the same people after 3 years think revising hamidon is still end game content. These are the same people who after 3 years still refuse to update power descriptions with actual numbers so people can make informed decisions about their choices without using outside of the game tools and websites. These are the same people who CENSORED THEIR OWN DEVELOPMENT TEAM MEMBERS when they did the developer interviews because they didnt like some of the questions they were answering.

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman didn't like one of his answers - so he had to go back and pick another one. Monday is what it looks like.

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a quote from cuppajo regarding the ask geko interview.

These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the first and only video game you've ever played?

I mean, that's the only possible reason I can think of for this endless outrage you have at the notion that the final boss of CoX is more powerful than the players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

It's all about perception.

Now take a game like WoW. Set in a fantasy D&D style world, there are pre-conceived perceptions of how the various classes function. No one expects a mage or priest to single-handedly wipe out a room full of foes. Most would expect a warrior to have trouble accomplishing a similar feat. These are established limitations based upon the genre. And WoW does a really good job at adhering to them as most player types perform pretty much exactly as expected. And, surprisingly, Blizzard has never had to resort to the kind of trickery or funny business Cryptic has in designing the game's foes. Most foes perform quite similarly to players in style, frequency, and damage of attacks. There are many types of mez-style effects that players can be hit with, but they are vastly infrequent compared to CoX, and they can all be readily countered in one way or another, whether it be thru an enchanted item, protective spell (available to nearly ALL spellcasters, not just one or two particular subtypes), or learned ability. In essence, you pretty much always feel like you're playing on a level field. This is not to say things are always easy, and as such many find it necessary to have at least one teammate to accomplish many quests. But you never feel grossly outclassed.

Now let's look at CoX. CoX is based in the world of comic book super heroes; super heroes who do not follow the same pre-conceived class structures as in fantasy games. Super heroes are, and have always been, badasses, plain and simple. There are no wussie super heroes; they are, by their nature, always better than the non-powered minions they fight, usually by a large margin. As you climb the foe ranks and start dealing with powered foes, things get a bit dicier, but again, that's the expectation as presented in nearly 70 years of comic book lore.

But CoX wasn't designed around this pre-established genre. It apparently was designed more in line with fantasy-based games. And therein lies the perception issue, and IMO the #1 problem that will plague this game for the rest of its existence and keep it from being anything more than moderately entertaining for short periods of time.

As a super hero, I expect to be able to fight throngs of minions before I even start to break a sweat. After all, that's the way it's done in the comics every day. Does Spider-Man get beaten down by two common warehouse workers and a foreman? Does any super hero, even a SIDEKICK, get beaten down like that? Where is the excitement in that? There is none, both in the game and in the comics.

So instead of ramping up the volume of foes to a "super hero" level, the devs, in an attempt to add "challenge" to the game, cut all player damage and protections by as much as 75% while increasing the HP and damage of foes by as much as 50%, all the while keeping the same 3:1 Statesman-mandated ratio. Woweee, how friggin super do I feel now, that even 3 of the lowliest foes is a "challenge"? Ummm, so not very.

And when this proved to be an ineffective method of getting people to prefer teaming to soloing (which, btw, is another strike against the super hero genre, as most heroes prefer to go solo except in extreme cases), they added and/or increased the frequency and magnitude of all sorts of annoying status effects to virtually all mob types. And though it did encourage teaming, it wasn't out of desire, but desperation, which resulted in general frustration and aggravation and ultimately led to the vast playerbase exodus that occurred between issues 4 thru 6.

And I haven't even touched upon the array of suppressions and nerfs made along the way as frustrated players developed new techniques in desperate attempts to somehow make up for what was taken from them. Well boo-ya, say goodbye to all the really cool and useful powers that were left.

And lo and behold, here we are today, a super hero RPG where players are constantly out damaged, out defensed, and out classed by nearly everything they fight. Moderately entertaining at best (mostly due to it being the only game in town), downright aggravating, frustrating and heretical at its worst, but nonetheless playable for a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable amount of enjoyment.

'Nuff said.

[Kyriani]

Wow... willy really summed up my experience when I left at i5...

and thats exactly what cox has become for me... mildly entertaining.

Just enough to justify the expense... but not enough that I'd ever encourage other folk to sign up.

Its a distraction for me. Once upon a time it used to be an obesession (i1-i3) and obsession is what you should be striving for to make an MMO a success and this is why cox is not a success. It's not a failure mind you... its just... mildly entertaining.

[Crosis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(i guess in THERE world, a year is 18 months long, as the past 4 issues have NOT followed this standard)

[/ QUOTE ]

Issue 1: 6/30/2004
Issue 2: 9/16/2004
Issue 3: 1/4/2005
Issue 4: 5/4/2005
Issue 5: 8/31/2005
Issue 6: 10/31/2005
Issue 7: 5/6/2006
Issue 8: 11/28/2006
Issue 9: 5/2/2007

The only block of three that didn't hit "three per year" was 6-8, which was 13, not 18, months. And overall, they're still right on "three per year", given that we've just had the three-year anniversary and nine issues within that time.

Kam

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so it was the last 3 and at 13 months, the point is still the same, and i dont count issue 6 at all, it was just adding cov access to cov side for pvp zones and came out 2 months after issue 5.....

[Mieux]

[ QUOTE ]
in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging

[/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't even say you are steping out of "normal" rules. To do so acknowledges a limitation that simply does not exist. This is a comic book game. Last I checked anything and everything was possible in the world of comics. Hell, Scarlet Witch created an alternate universe were everybody lived none the wiser....then she undid it all. The people that are getting all bent out of shape that Hami is hitting their precious PA, need to remember context under which this game takes place....limitless.

I emphatically salute the devs for remembering that. I think it is an excellent precedent on their part to make aspects of the game responsive to the players themselves. I think they need to take this a step farther. Make the AI's far more sensitive to what powers are being used against them. Allow them to see that they are constantly being held and let them start recruiting/training/spawning/hiring mob types which can protect them from holds. Hell, give mobs a way to adapt to stone tanks.

Obviously the bad guys should have a limit as to how much they can adapt and they shouldn't be able to cover all their holes at the same time, but it think this is one very immersive way to improve the AI.

Bravo. Compared to other games, I've consistently been impressed with the overall quality of decisions that Cryptic has made. I will gladly invest in any new games you guys come out with.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they could do that.

They can do anything they damn well want, ultimately.

I don't see them doing that for non-endgame content, because I think it would be stupid.

You may thing Hamidon's design is stupid. I don't, for reasons stated. If things that poke through phase shift and hibernate start showing up in door missions then I'll be on the bandwagon with you.

Simply because they did it in this particular case doesn't mean they're dense enough to do it everywhere.

Personally, I think claims that the new Hamidon is harder are a crock. The new Hamidon reqiuires greater coordination and active participation. If you were there to put powers on auto, then yeah, the new raid is harder for you. I always participated and paid attention at raids, meaning I was one of the people enabling all the akf-ers to get their HO. Nothing much changes for me in the new raid, except perhaps that I will die more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but com'n Uber, how many times have we seen this happen before? They start by one little change in only one place. "Well, it's the big bad of the end-game, so yeah, he should break all the rules". Then, when a new zone or TF is created with a new AV who just happens to have the ability to attack thru PS and destroy "indestructible" pets, we get "well, this is just one sole AV who's unique". And then of course it's not long before it trickles down to EBs and bosses across every major mob type.

And maybe now it's just phase shift and phantom army. Well then what's next? With the arrival of IOs and the particular problem with hostage missions, what did the devs decide to do? Did they just fix the particular problem in one of a number of suggested ways? Noooooo, they crafted a game-wide stealth debuff system that completely nerfs an entire AT and an entire class of already-nerfed and questionably useful powers.

I'm sorry if I don't share your faith, but after 3 years I've seen the devs make far too many bad choices and not nearly enough good ones.

And people are commenting that I'm referring solely to Hami in particular, but I'm not. I'm talking about the game in it's entirety. I'm talking about the devs taking ill-conceived shortcuts in their attempts to create "challenge" throughout the entire game. First we had travel suppression. Then mez suppression. Then stealth and phase shift suppression. Now steath and phase shift negation, and indestructible pets that suddenly aren't.

Funny how despite all the talk about "giving back" and "new directions" it seems like we're still heading down the same old path -- give the players a little something that's ultimately not going to be useful to most, and while no one is looking fire up the nerf machine and let 'er rip, hoping no one will notice.

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging

[/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't even say you are steping out of "normal" rules. To do so acknowledges a limitation that simply does not exist. This is a comic book game. Last I checked anything and everything was possible in the world of comics. Hell, Scarlet Witch created an alternate universe were everybody lived none the wiser....then she undid it all. The people that are getting all bent out of shape that Hami is hitting their precious PA, need to remember context under which this game takes place....limitless.

I emphatically salute the devs for remembering that. I think it is an excellent precedent on their part to make aspects of the game responsive to the players themselves. I think they need to take this a step farther. Make the AI's far more sensitive to what powers are being used against them. Allow them to see that they are constantly being held and let them start recruiting/training/spawning/hiring mob types which can protect them from holds. Hell, give mobs a way to adapt to stone tanks.

Obviously the bad guys should have a limit as to how much they can adapt and they shouldn't be able to cover all their holes at the same time, but it think this is one very immersive way to improve the AI.

Bravo. Compared to other games, I've consistently been impressed with the overall quality of decisions that Cryptic has made. I will gladly invest in any new games you guys come out with.

[/ QUOTE ]

too bad the heroes/villains playing this game dont have the option of "limitless" but I'm glad you're happy that that the NPCS have that option.

The players are saddled with more limits with almost every issue. Chew on that in your "limitless" universe

[IceScykle]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.

Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution. Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.

We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......

[Kitsune9tails]

I can defeat about 100 foes per hour that are theoretically my equals or better in this game. Hour after hour. Day in an day out. And I'm a casual player.

Spider-Man, eat your heart out!

But more seriously, I'd much rather hear you guys whine over cheating npcs than to hear the whines we'd get if the npcs had both power AND AI to match the players.

*shudders*

And if you can take on 6 even-level foes all at once in WoW and win consistently, well, I'm impressed.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure WoW is a great game, but I can't imagine that mechanics don't regular get changed there. I doubt it's a perfect utopia. Show me a perfect MMO with 100% player satisfaction, and I'll show you a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn :) I know plenty of people who left CoH for WoW, and I know others who left WoW for CoH. To each his own, but don't compare apples to pomegranates.

As for the fun, it's relative. I'm still having fun with the game, because I chose to work past the changes, instead of jumping ship at the first cry of doom.

[ QUOTE ]
These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... just wow (and not the game, except maybe for you :p). Mild exaggerations about pubic mutilation aside, IMHO, changes always happen in MMOs. Wait, let me say that again:

Changes always happen in MMOs.

Anyone who expects content to never change from launch is living in a fantasy. Changes happen because players find ways to interact with the environment tha were never intended. Players find exploits in maps, find ways to abuse systems, find ways to grief fellow players, etc., etc. All the "best" aspects of anonymitous "jerk hacking".

Devs are people, without the gift of divination; they don't see everything that can and will happen when they create games and systems. The one thing about MMOs is that change is constant. Things get fixed, to the satisfaction or dismay of players (depending on who's doing what); get used to change.

I5 was in 2005, almost 18 months ago. It's more than so last year. If you're still bent about I5, get over it. Unlearn what you learned, and stop lamenting a lost Carthage. Re-learn2play.

Here's the real question: who's actually tried the new encounter? Who's complaining just to pretend this is actually an issue?

Lately, I noticed a rash of people who return to the game (not all of them, mind you) who waste no time with non-constructive criticism. They complain about things that happened issues ago with little or no feedback on how to make it better.

Nothing against CuppaJo (we miss ya :)), but to finalize, I'll quote (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=baseraid&Number=8043251&S earchpage=1&Main=8042214&Words=muscle+Ex+Libris&to pic=&Search=true#Post8043251) one of the current community reps, Ex Libris:

[ QUOTE ]
ya'll want to see some change around here well then you better be willing to put in some muscle not just noise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No more strawman arguments about I5 and ED, and using the word nerf 7 times in a post. Try the new Hami before you knock it. If you don't like it after you try it, then by all means, give some constructive criticism. Otherwise, read my sig, and move on.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging

[/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't even say you are steping out of "normal" rules. To do so acknowledges a limitation that simply does not exist. This is a comic book game. Last I checked anything and everything was possible in the world of comics. Hell, Scarlet Witch created an alternate universe were everybody lived none the wiser....then she undid it all. The people that are getting all bent out of shape that Hami is hitting their precious PA, need to remember context under which this game takes place....limitless.

I emphatically salute the devs for remembering that. I think it is an excellent precedent on their part to make aspects of the game responsive to the players themselves. I think they need to take this a step farther. Make the AI's far more sensitive to what powers are being used against them. Allow them to see that they are constantly being held and let them start recruiting/training/spawning/hiring mob types which can protect them from holds. Hell, give mobs a way to adapt to stone tanks.

Obviously the bad guys should have a limit as to how much they can adapt and they shouldn't be able to cover all their holes at the same time, but it think this is one very immersive way to improve the AI.

Bravo. Compared to other games, I've consistently been impressed with the overall quality of decisions that Cryptic has made. I will gladly invest in any new games you guys come out with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, the day that my controller can break all the rules and use his AOE hold to mez an entire map for 30 minutes is the day I will agree with this nonsense. Cause right now the "rules" limit him to 10 foes for 10 seconds every 6 minutes. How quaint. Utterly useless. But quaint nonetheless.

The simple point is that if foes can break the rules, then we should be able to break the rules too. But we can't even come close. Wanna make the foes smarter. I'm all for it. You want them to call in backup depending upon what they're fighting. Sounds like a great idea.

You want to start having them firing off untyped damage attacks that ignore all defense and resistances, have unbreakable mez protection, impenetrable shields they can attack thru, unlimited endurance, 100% debuff resistance in addition to attacks that drain endurance, stop health and end recovery, debuff healing, prevent powers from recharging, and be able to destroy that which is clearly labeled as "indestructible", then my friend, we have a SERIOUS problem. This would be a game that, IMO, virtually no one but you would want to play.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.

Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution. Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.

We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out the same thing. PS lasts for 30 seconds. You can't do a damned thing while it's on. What exactly are you supposed to accomplish/contribute to a hami raid during that 30 seconds that could potentially make or break it? Color me clueless.

Ditto for Phantom Army. They're only out for what, 90 seconds? They can't be perma'd. And they do virtually no damage as most of it heals back. Even if you had a dozen illusion trollers and a herd of PA you still wouldn't accomplish much other than possibly a minor distraction. And since reports state that Hami continues to attack everything even while taunted, I can't see how 1 PA or 50 PA will make any bit of difference.

Unless of course I'm missing something.

[Glowworm_Nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."


[/ QUOTE ]

The door has always been open. The rationale of "adaption" was a throw away line from Castle because someone was asking for an in-game reason for Hammi having new abilities. The real non-rp reason is "the devs want Hammi to be more challenging" or something along those lines.

I really don't get this whole attitude of "environment cheating" as being a flaw. This isn't PvP. There is no particular reason that NPCs should have the same advantages and limitations as players. The game needs to be balanced so that players all face a similar level of challenge. Whether the NPCs follow all the player character design rules is irrelevant.

Face it, with the limited abilities of AIs mobs need to have limited options and some of those few options may be better than player options. So yeah they "cheat" in that they aren't built like players. But since those are the same mobs that everyone else faces it isn't cheating since all the players are on the same playing field.

Arguing about "cheating" NPCs is like arguing that bishops shouldn't be limited to moving only on the diagonal. It doesn't make sense! A bishop could ride a horse and move around as well as anyone else! It's cheating!

A dark godling can change itself so it can hit out of phase stuff. By the way you can buy stuff that enhances your out of phase powers at any of the stores in Talos, so it's not like it is some super-unknown mechanic. If Paragon City can sell you a spell or tech device to enhance your intangibleness then it seems plenty reasonable that Hami can figure out a way around it, him being a god and all.

[Glowworm_Nexus]

edited

[Lohenien]

The greatest failing of this game, since day 1, has been the lack of understanding on the devs part when it comes to what is a challenge for super heroes.

Super Heroes are rarely challenged by the shear overwhelming power of thier foes.

Super Heroes are challenged by the situations they are placed in, and this game lacks that aspect of the comic book experience.

Not only are situations not challenging , but the AI isnt exactly challenging either.

The game lacks any kind of puzzle solving element, even on an elementary level. Super Heroes are always thinking thier way out of problems.

Go watch some old Batman shows , sure you'll see plenty of KABAMs! and POWs!, but you also see Batman and Robin out thinking traps , almost inescapable situations, and actually thinking of solutions to the criminals master plans.

What do we get : clues and text, perhaps a glowie.

Theres like 1 mission in entire game that is time critical, and thats because you have multiple levels to search in like 10 minutes.

I could come up with sooo many new mission arcs and TFs that would be 10000 times better, it just amazes me that the devs cant seem to think up actually interesting game play scenarios.

The new faultline stuff is better than the launch content, but it doesn't pale in comparison to what the game could be.

[Wavicle]

Willy...it sounds to me like you didn't slot your aoe hold well at all, not to mention that it can hit up to 16, not 10. You think it's utterly useless? I know a lot of controllers who think otherwise.

Phase Shift powers are useless? My warshade certainly doesnt agree, and since when he uses his he hardly ever uses it for more than 10 seconds, the duration of the Power Pool version should be just fine for accomplishing the exact same goals.

I swear, this thread is filled with people whining because they don't know how to use their own powers effectively.

Also, UG and others, I theorize that the best way to avoid the bloom wipes is to have just a few people take Hami over the threshhold. Maybe 5 people take one for the team, everyone else goes and hides behind a rock. That doesn't sound too difficult to me...

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Chew on that in your "limitless" universe

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me take this moment to mention that I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums. Normally I'm not one to be big on silencing dissenting viewpoints, as I'm a rather frequent dissenter myself; I hardly agree with everything the devs do, and am vocal about it.

However, I've got a big issue with the influx of people who quit the game out of whatever disgust they have with it or the devs popping in and attempting to enlighten the poor mislead playerbase of how crappy this game is.

Here's a hint. We're still here. We still like the game after the changes (or, for some, discovered it after they hit and don't know how it was before). As much? Sometimes yes and more, sometimes no.

If you left because you dislike the game that's fine; sorry to hear that. Do please tell the devs about what would get you to come back. If you don't like it anymore, fine. Say you don't, and even why. Don't try to convince people who still do that they shouldn't, or delcare them wrong for doing so. Or do; I'll happily add you to my ignore bin.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure WoW is a great game, but I can't imagine that mechanics don't regular get changed there. I doubt it's a perfect utopia. Show me a perfect MMO with 100% player satisfaction, and I'll show you a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn :) I know plenty of people who left CoH for WoW, and I know others who left WoW for CoH. To each his own, but don't compare apples to pomegranates.

As for the fun, it's relative. I'm still having fun with the game, because I chose to work past the changes, instead of jumping ship at the first cry of doom.

[ QUOTE ]
These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... just wow (and not the game, except maybe for you :p). Mild exaggerations about pubic mutilation aside, IMHO, changes always happen in MMOs. Wait, let me say that again:

Changes always happen in MMOs.

Anyone who expects content to never change from launch is living in a fantasy. Changes happen because players find ways to interact with the environment tha were never intended. Players find exploits in maps, find ways to abuse systems, find ways to grief fellow players, etc., etc. All the "best" aspects of anonymitous "jerk hacking".

Devs are people, without the gift of divination; they don't see everything that can and will happen when they create games and systems. The one thing about MMOs is that change is constant. Things get fixed, to the satisfaction or dismay of players (depending on who's doing what); get used to change.

I5 was in 2005, almost 18 months ago. It's more than so last year. If you're still bent about I5, get over it. Unlearn what you learned, and stop lamenting a lost Carthage. Re-learn2play.

Here's the real question: who's actually tried the new encounter? Who's complaining just to pretend this is actually an issue?

Lately, I noticed a rash of people who return to the game (not all of them, mind you) who waste no time with non-constructive criticism. They complain about things that happened issues ago with little or no feedback on how to make it better.

Nothing against CuppaJo (we miss ya :)), but to finalize, I'll quote (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=baseraid&Number=8043251&S earchpage=1&Main=8042214&Words=muscle+Ex+Libris&to pic=&Search=true#Post8043251) one of the current community reps, Ex Libris:

[ QUOTE ]
ya'll want to see some change around here well then you better be willing to put in some muscle not just noise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No more strawman arguments about I5 and ED, and using the word nerf 7 times in a post. Try the new Hami before you knock it. If you don't like it after you try it, then by all means, give some constructive criticism. Otherwise, read my sig, and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you're missing the point, the bigger picture.

Of course all MMOs change and evolve. It's the nature of the beast. And of course not all changes are favorable to the players or are lauded.

And my comparison of CoX to WoW was solely on a level of anticipated gameplay based upon the particular genre of each. No more, no less. They are vastly different games that won't necessarily appeal to everyone.

Nonetheless, WoW captures the feel of its genre dead on. CoX does not. That's the simplest way to say it. And this isn't something that easily affected by patches, changes, power alterations, etc. It's a fundamental structure of the game that is not easily broken. In CoX's case it was, for all intents and purposes, broken from the beginning. Subsequent changes and patches that were supposed to address these problems only managed to make things worse. Which then required more changes. Which again made things worse.

And I'm sorry to disagree with you, but like any evolving entity, if you don't look to the mistakes of the past you're only bound to repeat them. And brother, there's been a whole lotta repeatin' going on.

And as for devs and their choices, let's revisit the current hostage/stealth issue. The problem: certain IO's that grant stealth can be slotted into auto powers, thereby granting the player perma-stealth. This makes soloing hostage missions impossible, as hostages can't see thru stealth, and you have no way of turning off this kind of auto stealth. The devs were then presented with the following player contributed ideas (in no particular order):

1.) Do not allow said IOs to be slotted into auto powers.

2.) Make no change to the system, but alert players of the issue and discourage them from soloing hostage missions.

3.) Temporarily remove said IOs from the game until a better solution is found.

4.) Create a temp power that suppresses an individual player's stealth, allowing the player to complete the hostage mission.

All of these solutions are, IMO, clean and elegant as they address the particular issue without any type of collateral damage. Unfortunately, the devs, in their oh-so-finite wisdom chose option:

5.) Create an AOE stealth debuff field triggered upon obtaining the hostage, that permanently suppresses all stealth and invisibility on the entire team for the duration of the mission, even after the hostage is delivered. This applies for both the non-interactive hostages that can't see thru stealth, as well as for the NPC hostages that aren't affected by stealth and will fight alongside you.

Of course it's quite easy to see why #5 is by far and away the best and most logical choice, and will surely attract Stalkers in droves to any and all hostage missions.

So yes, Ex Libris, we flexed our muscles, came up with 4 logical, clean, and effective solutions, all of which were summarily ignored (without any type of explanation) for a grossly counter-intuitive, overcomplicated, and highly destructive alternative.

So forgive me if I'm just a wee bit wary when I start to hear things like "Hami can now attack thru phase shift" and "Hami can now destroy pets that are supposed to be indestructible." Cause I just have no faith left. What little I once had was all used up by I5.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It never was.

PA, however, is central to the pre-I9 raid strategy. And that's what they wanted to change. PA have the "Untouchable" power, just like Hibernate and PS. And that's what Hami now bypasses.

It was PA they wanted to indirectly nerf in Hami's presence. PS and Hibernate were collateral damage.

[UnSub]

[ QUOTE ]

The players are saddled with more limits with almost every issue. Chew on that in your "limitless" universe

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had an axe to grind that had nothing to do with the OP...

[UnSub]

[ QUOTE ]

Go watch some old Batman shows , sure you'll see plenty of KABAMs! and POWs!, but you also see Batman and Robin out thinking traps , almost inescapable situations, and actually thinking of solutions to the criminals master plans.


[/ QUOTE ]

Three words: Bat Shark Repellent.

Many comic book characters don't think their way out of situations, they are given convenient escapes by the writers.

CoH/V missions have no writers in terms of what goes on during a mission who can edit in a convenient escape for players. Either it is there from the start (ie click the glowie, end the mission) or it isn't.

If Cryptic doesn't improve on the current CoH/V mission format in MUO and their other releases, I'll agree that they've become stagnant. However, for CoH/V, just turned three, they are still pretty close to the comic book experience that I am familiar with.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The game lacks any kind of puzzle solving element, even on an elementary level. Super Heroes are always thinking thier way out of problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Superheroes are part of books. They are a story, read by a reader, who is paced by the author.

I disagree completely that any sort of puzzle solving is consistently present in superhero stories. It depends on the nature of the hero and the plot devices needed by the authors. Heroes do things ranging from beating the tar out of people, convincing them to turn a new leaf, or whatever in between. Actual "puzzling" over the solution is very rare for quite a few iconic characters, and many cases where they would do so would be incredibly boring to actually act out in a game. I don't want to play Mister Fantastic or the Beast designing some new gadget or researching a mysterious disease.

Moreover, I don't want to solve puzzes really at all. I enjoy endlessly beating the crap out of mobs. In that sense I'm Cryptics perfect customer, and I'm the kind of player that vindicates their model for this game. Combat engine first and foremost, and everything that goes into it improves or expands on that.

Responding to the thread more generally, improving the AI and whatnot is fine, to a point. But I still feel heroic in this game. I don't have a character one over 40 that can't take on 6-10 +2 foes, and most can take on that many +3s at decent risk, all often without having to resort to long-recharge powers or inspirations. I happen to think that's pretty good.

Do I miss the days of taking on 30-60 foes? Yeah. I also know it was broken. I knew it then, too; I knew someday it would go away, because it was unevenly distributed (even more than it is now) and made certain things that should have been more useful largely useless. Do I agree with all the mechanics of how they changed the game? Definitely not. Do I feel they ruined the game with those changes? Definitely not.

[Kyriani]

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[ QUOTE ]
Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure WoW is a great game, but I can't imagine that mechanics don't regular get changed there. I doubt it's a perfect utopia. Show me a perfect MMO with 100% player satisfaction, and I'll show you a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn :) I know plenty of people who left CoH for WoW, and I know others who left WoW for CoH. To each his own, but don't compare apples to pomegranates.

As for the fun, it's relative. I'm still having fun with the game, because I chose to work past the changes, instead of jumping ship at the first cry of doom.

[ QUOTE ]
These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow... just wow (and not the game, except maybe for you :p). Mild exaggerations about pubic mutilation aside, IMHO, changes always happen in MMOs. Wait, let me say that again:

Changes always happen in MMOs.

Anyone who expects content to never change from launch is living in a fantasy. Changes happen because players find ways to interact with the environment tha were never intended. Players find exploits in maps, find ways to abuse systems, find ways to grief fellow players, etc., etc. All the "best" aspects of anonymitous "jerk hacking".

Devs are people, without the gift of divination; they don't see everything that can and will happen when they create games and systems. The one thing about MMOs is that change is constant. Things get fixed, to the satisfaction or dismay of players (depending on who's doing what); get used to change.

I5 was in 2005, almost 18 months ago. It's more than so last year. If you're still bent about I5, get over it. Unlearn what you learned, and stop lamenting a lost Carthage. Re-learn2play.

Here's the real question: who's actually tried the new encounter? Who's complaining just to pretend this is actually an issue?

Lately, I noticed a rash of people who return to the game (not all of them, mind you) who waste no time with non-constructive criticism. They complain about things that happened issues ago with little or no feedback on how to make it better.

Nothing against CuppaJo (we miss ya :)), but to finalize, I'll quote (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=baseraid&Number=8043251&S earchpage=1&Main=8042214&Words=muscle+Ex+Libris&to pic=&Search=true#Post8043251) one of the current community reps, Ex Libris:

[ QUOTE ]
ya'll want to see some change around here well then you better be willing to put in some muscle not just noise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No more strawman arguments about I5 and ED, and using the word nerf 7 times in a post. Try the new Hami before you knock it. If you don't like it after you try it, then by all means, give some constructive criticism. Otherwise, read my sig, and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post isnt about the new hami. It's about this game's development as a whole.

WoW has its share of changes I never denied this and its only an example.

Do I sound bitter though? You bet I am. Maybe cause I was here in coh beta.... I watched slowly but surely as the fun was sucked out of the game from issue 4 onwards. More powers rendered useless or situational.

Are nerfs a part of pretty much every MMO? Yes

Should they be? Only as an absolute last resort after all other methods of trying to balance things have been exhausted.

I know you cant answer every imbalance with a buff to players. But I think the few attempts to buff the foes were poorly excuted. AI improvements alone could raise the challenge level of this game (and most others I might add) dramatically. Foes who have "inspirations" of their own to pop at critical times would again add to the challenge level in a big way but options like these are either ignored or deemed too much work to implement.

I was one of those people who used to play hours upon hours of every day back then. I was hooked. I told everyone I could about the game and to get on board. And eventually over the course of many issues my experience was reduced in entertainment value to the point where I quit the game.

About 1 year later I found myself in a position of requiring a certain amount of distraction (the reasons are irrelevant) with as little effort or commitment as possible. CoH fits that bill nicely and so I decided to come back especially considering there were a few new things to play with and inventions have the potential to restore some of the "fun" I had back then.

But I didnt come back with any illusions. I know full well nerfs will continue and if I ever hit that point of too much fun again I'll know a nerf is not too long in the coming. You see you missed the entire point of my post. I am telling people to EXPECT nerfs. You should have been agreeing with my instead of trying to make it seem like I am shocked about them which I am clearly not.

Not for nothing though? Some tuning aside here or there WoW does one thing right. They keep their content constant. WoW's content does in fact STAY THE SAME with every new patch. They dont change existing encounter in the hopes of recycling old content, they make NEW content. After 3 years the closest thing to new endgame content for players in CoH is the STF. That level of consistency is a point in WoW's favor not detriment IMO. It allows players to get comfortable in their wolrd. To know they can rely on certain things to always remain consistent for the most part. Thats a good thing... Being able to learn something and practice it enough to the point where it becomes "easy" should be OK. Players should not have to worry that every time a patch comes out the fundamental laws of the game could change.

But ya know what? The same "change how the players powers work" attitude time after time just gets old ya know? Thats why I gave up ever hoping they'd ever test stuff enough to not let imbalances occur in the first place and if one did slip by they'd find some way or dealing with it that didnt involve screwing the player. And now they dont even hide their disdain for the players who arent butt kissing yes men. They openly make jests at those who take umbrage at the things they do to the game. Instead of praising players for creative tactics things get nerfed to counter those tactics to the point of rendering powers used in those tactics utterly useless. (and i am NOT referring to just how hami kills phantasms and phased people now.)

While almost all MMOs nerf things over the course of their existence very few change the fundamentals of how the game is played as much as CoH has. SWG is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of drastic changes to an MMO... CoH is the second.

They win for now. They get to have my money until either my situation changes or I find something else that is "mildly entertaining" and doesnt require much effort or commitment. I have no loyalty to this game or company and as soon as something that suits my needs comes along I'll probably move on again. The thing is thats a very sad way for your customers to feel about your product. This game could have been just as big as WoW if things were handled differently. Unfortunately it is now only "mildly entertaining"

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chew on that in your "limitless" universe

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me take this moment to mention that I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums. Normally I'm not one to be big on silencing dissenting viewpoints, as I'm a rather frequent dissenter myself; I hardly agree with everything the devs do, and am vocal about it.

However, I've got a big issue with the influx of people who quit the game out of whatever disgust they have with it or the devs popping in and attempting to enlighten the poor mislead playerbase of how crappy this game is.

Here's a hint. We're still here. We still like the game after the changes (or, for some, discovered it after they hit and don't know how it was before). As much? Sometimes yes and more, sometimes no.

If you left because you dislike the game that's fine; sorry to hear that. Do please tell the devs about what would get you to come back. If you don't like it anymore, fine. Say you don't, and even why. Don't try to convince people who still do that they shouldn't, or delcare them wrong for doing so. Or do; I'll happily add you to my ignore bin.

[/ QUOTE ]

At no point did I ever try to tell people the game sucks. It doesnt suck. It's just not as great as it used to be for ME. And while my opinions are only one grain of sand on the beach they are mine and I am not trying to impose them on anyone outside of sharing them in this forum.

And for your information I am NOT on a free account reactivation. Ive been back for a couple months now paying my monthly fee because the situation I am in makes CoH perfect for my current needs. I am simply voicing my opinions as I see nothing has changed as far as the development teams mindset. If my opinions bother you I apologize.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
Willy...it sounds to me like you didn't slot your aoe hold well at all, not to mention that it can hit up to 16, not 10. You think it's utterly useless? I know a lot of controllers who think otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything. That leaves 3 more slots. Now if I slot them with holds I can hold +2 minions for roughly 20 seconds (about 15 for +2 LTs), do no damage, and not be able to use the power again for 4 minutes. Higher level foes will be held for shorter periods of time, lower level slightly longer.

Now if I go for recharges instead of holds, I get about half the mez time (10 seconds for +2 minions, 7.5 for +2 LTs), but get the use the power about every 2 minutes.

I'm sorry, but either way doesn't really seem worth 5 slots that can be better used elsewhere, either for damage, recharge, or end redux. 10 seconds every 2 minutes or 20 seconds every 4 minutes? Dude, that's just lame.

And for the record, I play with a lot of trollers and I rarely ever see one use their AOE hold other than in "oh crap" situations, and I know a whole lot of trollers who skip it altogether and take something else more useful.

[ QUOTE ]
Phase Shift powers are useless? My warshade certainly doesnt agree, and since when he uses his he hardly ever uses it for more than 10 seconds, the duration of the Power Pool version should be just fine for accomplishing the exact same goals.

I swear, this thread is filled with people whining because they don't know how to use their own powers effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, but your warshade doesn't need to take 2 other pool powers to get his PS, and yes, that makes a huge difference. So yeah, if people could pick up PS to use as an "oh crap" power, or a "let me get from point A to B unscathed" power, then yeah, it might be worth taking now and again. But to have to give up 2 other powers just to get PS? That's just about as dumb as wasting 5 slots to get a 10 second hold every 2 minutes.

[Fuzun]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[Wavicle]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly this is true in a way.

The true problem IMO however is that developers almost never choose to spend time and funds to create a truly good AI. They make a basic AI and build everything else around that. To compensate for crappy AI they let their NPCs break the rules

I once hosted and developed an online gameworld. At one point I actually went to the trouble of upgrading my AI on the npcs. Know what happened? I had to nerf the crap out of a number of my NPCs cause with the improved AI they were so much better at using thier abilities that the "cheats" originally built into them to make them challenging made them unbeatable or ridiculously overpowered for the challenge level they were supposed to have.

Thats a clear example of just how powerful a GOOD AI can be.

Can you imagine how much a good ai would rock the foundations of this game world with all the "cheats" the villains use currently?

[Work_Ethic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.

Right now, a solo toon gets on average 3-5 foes per spawn depending upon difficulty. And for some ATs like brutes, tanks and scrappers, they can easily plow thru them with little to no effort or downtime. But man, does that get boring really quickly.

On the flip side, weaker characters like defenders usually can make it thru, but the pace is slow and laborious and requires significant downtime to recover health and/or end. Again, this gets boring very quickly, and is just not fun.

In both cases you never get to feel really "super" cause you're either under-challenged or over-challenged.

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

theres your problem.

2/2/2

I use this on +3 guys, hit about 95% of the time, lock them down for about 17 seconds, recharge, a little over 3 mins.

Solo, the power sits useless in my tray, I have an AoE sleep that I use for that, but in teams, I use it very frequently.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.

And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.

With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.

And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.

And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.

[Wavicle]

well willy, I repeat: I think you slotted your hold wrong.

2 acc, 3 hold, 1 recharge

add hasten

that hold is up every 2 minutes, lasts nearly 30 seconds, and will hit most things that don't have Defense powers. Eat a yellow first if you're really concerned. Therefore I call BS on your hyperbole. Furthermore, the controllers I play with use theirs almost every time it's up. Considering the abundance of /Kin and /Rad controllers, many of them have it available considerably more than every 2 minutes.

as for PS: the cost of the prereq powers is irrelevant in a discussion of how well the power itself works.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

theres your problem.

2/2/2

I use this on +3 guys, hit about 95% of the time, lock them down for about 17 seconds, recharge, a little over 3 mins.

Solo, the power sits useless in my tray, I have an AoE sleep that I use for that, but in teams, I use it very frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dude, there is no way you're hitting +3s 95% of the time with only 2 SO accuracies in your AOE hold. At best you'd hit around 75% of them. Math doesn't lie.

So, instead of catching 16 for 16 seconds every 4 minutes (for +3s) or 8 seconds every 2 minutes your slotting catches 12 for 13 seconds every 2.5 minutes.

Even if you were getting 17 seconds every 3 minutes, does that still seem worth 5 slots to you? Sure doesn't to me. Whole lotta slots for a whole lotta nothing.

But to each their own, I guess. If you like it and find it useful, more power to ya.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
well willy, I repeat: I think you slotted your hold wrong.

2 acc, 3 hold, 1 recharge

add hasten

that hold is up every 2 minutes, lasts nearly 30 seconds, and will hit most things that don't have Defense powers. Eat a yellow first if you're really concerned. Therefore I call BS on your hyperbole. Furthermore, the controllers I play with use theirs almost every time it's up. Considering the abundance of /Kin and /Rad controllers, many of them have it available considerably more than every 2 minutes.

as for PS: the cost of the prereq powers is irrelevant in a discussion of how well the power itself works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry man, totally disagree. So now I'm supposed to take a power that does no damage, drop 5 slots in it and take another power, drop 3 slots in it, so I can get a 30 second (against even minions) no damage hold every 2 minutes. And have a tray full of yellows to boot.

Maybe it depends upon what kind of troller you are. Some sets are just better built than others. But personally, I just wouldn't take it unless I had absolutely nothing better to take. And even then I would just drop 1 or 2 acc in it and use it as an oh crap power. If you're a fire troller, you'd just much better use outta flashfire and hotfeet. Ice trollers live and die by their ice slick, and if you like to solo, the sleep works nicely. Gravity trollers are trickier, but with judicious use of wormhole and your aoe immobilize you can pretty much lock things down for much longer than you ever could with the hold. Illusion is the troller [censored] child, and the only set I can see trying to invest in the aoe hold simply as an additional means of establishing containment. But otherwise, why? You have pets up the ying yang, let em do their thing. And mind trollers, well, don't have a lot of experience there, but I'm thinking you get a lot more usage outta a nicely slotted telekinesis than you would on your aoe hold. And like ice, if you're into soloing, the aoe sleep works nicely too, and doesn't require a lot of slots to be effective.

But again, just my opinion. If you like the aoe hold, then take it.

And how can you say that prerequisites have no bearing on the usefulness of a power? That's crap, and you know it. Now if you have tons of unused power slots and throwing away 2 of them is of no consequence to you (or if there was no limitation on the number of powers we could take), then yeah, the point would be moot.

But the reality is that most builds are too damned tight to give up 2 powers simply for the sake of getting a 30 second intangibility power with limited usefulness. I mean, it's bad enough we do it for stamina, but you can't compare the usefulness of the two. If the prerequites themselves had some kind of legitimate value, then I could almost acknowledge it being worth it. But they don't. There is nothing worse than taking a power that 90% of the time you've got it on it's suppressed in one way or another. What's the frakkin point?

But... my illusion troller does have superior invisibility. It has its limited uses (mostly while traveling), doesn't require any slotting, and has no prerequisites. I deemed it worthy. But would I waste a power slot on stealth or invis other so I could get invisibility? Oh hell no. The usefulness isn't worth whatever power I'd have to give up.

[Fuzun]

[ QUOTE ]

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.

[Kyriani]

Willy is right

for aoe controls to have any type of serious usefulness above heroic difficulty the best set up is:

3 acc/mez 3 recharge + hasten with 3-6 recharge (depending on how much that extra 20 sec or so those last 3 enhancers are worth to you)

thats how to make aoe holds somewhat useable reliably above heroic

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.

[/ QUOTE ]

But still, it's been 3 years since launch. You can't tell me that in all this time they can't find some way to upgrade their servers. I mean, look at what was top of the line 3 years ago compared to now, it's like comparing a honda civic to a jaguar.

And if that's what it's gonna take to make this game great, I say drop whatever the hell you're doing AND GET IT DONE!! Cause all the new content/powersets/inventions/end game in the world don't mean squat if the game isn't outrageously fun and addictive to play. And right now, it just ain't.

[Wavicle]

Willy is entitled to his opinion as are you.

My friends and I will continue locking down spawns up to about +4, and happily wasting them before the hold wears off.

Anyone who wants to get as far as Phase Shift will make great use of it, anyone who didn't want Stealth or Invis in the first place won't worry about it.

I think you guys are missing the point of these powers. Yes, AoE holds can be thought of as an Oh [censored] power. But they're one of the best Oh [censored] powers in the whole game. It's not like controllers are having trouble controlling when their aoe hold is down. Not any that I play with anyway.

The attitude that a power is useless if it isn't available every spawn or two, or doesnt last a minute, or ever has accuracy problems is really shortsighted, imo, and strikes me as foolish in the extreme.

[Obsidius]

This thread is so derailed, I'm not even going to attempt an counterargument.

It's apparent, however, that some posters will never feel good about this game and should probably move on for everyone's benefit, as I believe no amount of debate will change their secular viewpoints, and hence create a moot discussion.

I've almost always felt heroic in this game. Some people get too hung up on mechanics to feel that way I suppose.

[Obsidius]

Can we move this thread to the Tank forums? It feels like a Tank thread.

I haven't been this sickened by a thread since ED on the Tank forums, maybe that's why... and this isn't even close to ED.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Work_Ethic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.

And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.

With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.

And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.

And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't spend that much time licking my wounds- I don't have a problem taking some damage, I don't know how a defender is gonna do against what I go against because I don't know how a defender plays (yet).

What powers have had their recharge time nerfed? Are you talking about "perma-hasten"? Never had so I never needed it so I don't miss it.

And as for Stalkers? Sorry, my lvl 37 has absolutely NO problem what so ever burning through missions- with or with out needing AS up at every mob.

Sorry this game is so tough for you, and so unliked- why do you play if it bothers you so much?

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
Willy is entitled to his opinion as are you.

My friends and I will continue locking down spawns up to about +4, and happily wasting them before the hold wears off.

Anyone who wants to get as far as Phase Shift will make great use of it, anyone who didn't want Stealth or Invis in the first place won't worry about it.

I think you guys are missing the point of these powers. Yes, AoE holds can be thought of as an Oh [censored] power. But they're one of the best Oh [censored] powers in the whole game. It's not like controllers are having trouble controlling when their aoe hold is down. Not any that I play with anyway.

The attitude that a power is useless if it isn't available every spawn or two, or doesnt last a minute, or ever has accuracy problems is really shortsighted, imo, and strikes me as foolish in the extreme.

[/ QUOTE ]

No my friend, I think it's you who is missing the point.

I have 3 trollers. One is grav/rad, one is fire/kin, and one is illusion/kin. And I have a good friend with an ice/empathy.

Setting aside 2 power slots for travel means I have to give up 3 powers in my primary and/or secondary to accommodate the fitness pool. Knowing that most of the powers in all these sets are good and useful, which powers do I give up? Dimension shift and group invis come to mind. I'm also not a big fan of repel or choking cloud. Ok, that's 2. What other kinetics power am I supposed to give up? Siphon power? Siphon Speed? Speed Boost? All of them are much more valuable to my team than my "at best 30 second every 2 minute" hold. What other rad power do I skip? The debuffs? Accelerated metabolism? Ok, maybe you could skip the rez -- but it would be an even steven as far as I'm concerned. But fallout with the rez is a really nice combo, especially if it's your tank or scrapper that falls. Reduces downtown to zero, which is invaluable.

Now on the fire troller there are a lot of skippable powers IMO. Smoke ain't worth it, and neither is bonfire. But with flashfire and fire cages being 10x better than cinders ever could, why bother with it? So with all the extra slots I took assault and tactics. Not only does it benefit me, it also helps the whole team, including the pets, 100% of the time. 3 slotting tactics for tohit is good enough for you to get by with only 1 accy in most powers (2 for flashfire and fire cages), so the extra slots are free, so to speak.

So the point you're missing is that although the holds might indeed be useful when they're up, there usually are a lot better power choices you can take that are either toggles and are on 100% of the time, or are buffs/debuffs that will ultimately have a greater positive impact on the team compared to that short duration, long recharge hold.

And seriously, why would you prefer to take a power that "isn't available every spawn or two, doesn't last a minute, and has accuracy problems" when you can take another power that does damage, helps the team do more damage, has a short recharge time, lasts a minute or longer, and has no accuracy problem? It's such a no-brainer for me, I simply cannot understand why you both don't see it.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.

And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.

With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.

And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.

And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't spend that much time licking my wounds- I don't have a problem taking some damage, I don't know how a defender is gonna do against what I go against because I don't know how a defender plays (yet).

What powers have had their recharge time nerfed? Are you talking about "perma-hasten"? Never had so I never needed it so I don't miss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant powers like the empathy auras, freezing rain, phantom army, etc., powers that pre-ED you could perma (some with hasten, some without) that you can't any longer.

[ QUOTE ]
And as for Stalkers? Sorry, my lvl 37 has absolutely NO problem what so ever burning through missions- with or with out needing AS up at every mob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well my lvl 16 gets his [censored] kicked all the time, so I can only guess they get better with time and lots and lots of slots.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry this game is so tough for you, and so unliked- why do you play if it bothers you so much?

[/ QUOTE ]

The game isn't tough for me, but many times it's not fun either. And I continue to play it because despite it's failings it still manages to remain moderately entertaining to some degree, at least enough for me to keep playing and paying. And again, it's not like there's another, better, super hero MMO I could be playing.

But I'm also haunted by what once was, and the frustrations of knowing how good this game COULD be, but never WILL be.

[Work_Ethic]

<QR>

How could this game be better?

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

How could this game be better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said it a few pages back, here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8200507) and here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8201468)

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

How could this game be better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said it a few pages back, here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8200507) and here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8201468)

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:

You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account. They never even consider that maybe some complaints have some validity.

See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

How could this game be better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said it a few pages back, here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8200507) and here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8201468)

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:

You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account.

See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that when people refuse to debate the merits of the argument at hand and stoop to personal or character attacks, it basically means you've hit the nail on the head and they have nothing that can rebuke your discussion.

So don't see it as being nasty or dismissive, just see it as a childish way of acknowledging they just lost the debate.

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

How could this game be better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said it a few pages back, here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8200507) and here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8201468)

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:

You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account.

See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that when people refuse to debate the merits of the argument at hand and stoop to personal or character attacks, it basically means you've hit the nail on the head and they have nothing that can rebuke your discussion.

So don't see it as being nasty or dismissive, just see it as a childish way of acknowledging they just lost the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you are right. I just wish people would take the time to see my point of view cause I always take time to see theirs

I wont ever deny there have been many BUFFS and good additions to the game.

I would even go so far as to say the good outweighs the bad in many cases

But it seems the people who cared enough to complain mostly left and those that remain accept most anything they get handed no matter if its good or not.

[Firebomb]

[ QUOTE ]
When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. And those /dev blasters wouldn't need to teleport their crazy over powered auto turrets around if they could slot them with RANGE enhancements.

Wouldn't that you know, fit a BLASTER power?

[Eric_Linstone]

Man... wow...
Well I like Backally's attempt to explain. & while PAs could still be useful PS is 100% useless. That would be like making everyone with Acrobatics get knocked down when hit by hami or a mito. So, make him attack PAs & able to kill them & ignore PSers. Easy. :p
Though I'd love to have Backally chime in again about how Hami can kill something that's not real.
But he did make an attempt to explain & it was good. Props for that. But the devs still get a lazy point for inaccurate power descriptions. I'm pretty sure PAs description says they aren't real so they can't be killed. :p

[Wavicle]

It makes plenty of sense to me.

Hami is a self-engineered, mutating macroorganism.

He was attacked by raiders led by perma-phase shifted targetters for a while, and he's been dealing with illusionary armies for a couple years now.

It makes perfect sense to me that he has now mutated himself to be able to hit things that are phased out of normal space and to be able to destroy illusions.

The new raid is easier to organize, easier to complete, and impossible to 'fail' (in the sense that it previously could be failed). I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the raid, and I really don't see Phase Shift as useless.

I don't see it as so useful that I would take the Concealment pool just to get it. However, if I was already taking Stealth and Invis (or Grant Invis) I would strongly consider working it in. I know from experience on my Warshade that it can be very useful in a variety of situations.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes plenty of sense to me.

Hami is a self-engineered, mutating macroorganism.

He was attacked by raiders led by perma-phase shifted targetters for a while, and he's been dealing with illusionary armies for a couple years now.

It makes perfect sense to me that he has now mutated himself to be able to hit things that are phased out of normal space and to be able to destroy illusions.

The new raid is easier to organize, easier to complete, and impossible to 'fail' (in the sense that it previously could be failed). I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the raid, and I really don't see Phase Shift as useless.

I don't see it as so useful that I would take the Concealment pool just to get it. However, if I was already taking Stealth and Invis (or Grant Invis) I would strongly consider working it in. I know from experience on my Warshade that it can be very useful in a variety of situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's the first thing we've agreed upon this entire thread :D

[MrYukon]

i'm honestly surprised the Dev's haven't just made Hami flat out immune to damage from players unless they've used the Essense of Fire inspiration.
not to be confused with Essense of earth.

Earth - grants resistance to Hamidon Damage
Air - an end buff for a short duration.
Fire - grants the ability to damage the hamidon
Water - grants the ability to heal damage taken from the hamidon (watch this'll be next. a -regen to his damage)

it'll happen folks.
watch.
it's not like the devs have anything else to do besides rework Hami every other issue or so.

[Wavicle]

lol

this is absurd

Essence of Earth is just there to help us while we learn how to do the raid. Training Wheels so to speak.

The devs have plenty of other things they are working on besides Hami.

[Celestial_Fury]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this could be achieved by simply adding another "difficulty setting" where enemy number would be three times more than normal but conning green minions and blue lieutenants. Some of my characters would really enjoy such a setting.

[Kyriani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this could be achieved by simply adding another "difficulty setting" where enemy number would be three times more than normal but conning green minions and blue lieutenants. Some of my characters would really enjoy such a setting.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a fun idea :)

[Bland]

This is the third time you've done a major nerf (yes, that IS the right word) to Phase Shift:

1) Escalating endurance usage PLUS
2) Time limit on usage
3) No has that "Cannot be harmed" from the original description.

If it's not something you want in the game, how about removing it and replacing it with something that still has a use?

[Thorizdin_LotD]

PS is still very much a great power, since its the ultimate aww crap button in the game. The only exception to this is the ultimate BBG in the game, Hami. I've always thought it was moronic that the greatest danger to the entire City of universe couldn't hit through PS. To make matters worse he not only couldn't destroy Phantom Army decoys, but was too stupid to realize that he couldn't destroy them.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.

[/ QUOTE ]

The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.

Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.

Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival. All things are possible with time and money, but that example alone tells me there would need to be other under-the-hood changes to allow a slider setting like this.

Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.

Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.

Nor do I think that making Hamidon able to blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.

[Aura_Familia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.

[/ QUOTE ]

The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.

Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.

Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are currently at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival.

Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.

Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.

Nor do I think that making Hamidon blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.

The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.

However, I agree that a super powerful being should know how to evolve.

Also if they could have coded it where PS was not hit by the PA change, I'm sure they would have.

However, they now need to change the power description of PA. As its no longer accurate. There is an exception to its current description that players SHOULD be made aware of.

Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.

The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do I feel it should be the only thing, and I didn't suggest it should. I was talking specifically about the cost/benefit analysis of improving the core engine to support larger mass combat as a slider setting. I consider the "cost" of that analysis to include time lost for working on new powersets/ATs, new mission features, fixing old bugs and other things that would require programmer resources. (I feel pretty confident that the mission and zone editing staff are not the same as the programming staff.)

[ QUOTE ]
Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe there was a change to PS. There was a change to Hamidon, or possibly to the "Untouchable" status effect (which affects more than PS) to give Hamidon a free pass. None of the changes to Hamidon were enumerated in the patch notes.

[Lakanna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.

If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.

Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.

Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.

You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.

And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ... :p

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.

Hamidon aside, there are many, many foes in the game that are still using either pre-release and/or un-nerfed versions of player powers. Foes have always been able to side-step the rules that players are forced to abide by.

When was the last time you saw a flying foe such as a freak or longbow get slowed to a crawl after attacking you? And when was the last time you were able to move at a greatly enhanced running speed while disoriented?

Why can foes instantly lock on to you and queue up multiple attacks before your alpha attack even finishes its animation/activation cycle?

Why can one foe smoke grenade completely floor the entire team's perception even after they attack, yet player versions lose what pathetically little effect they have as soon as an attack is launched?

Why do foes keep getting upgraded status-type effects that players, by and large, have no countenance for? Sorry _Castle_, but I can respec and reslot until doomsday and still never be able to hit a phase-shifted Carnie, gain a meaningful resistance to psionic attacks on my INV/SS tank, be able to run out of 10 applications of Artemis caltrops, be able to fully resist a Sapper's end drain attack, or protect myself from multiple Longbow -resistance sonic grenades that apparently are many times stronger than the un-enhanceable player versions.

Why can foes still attack even though they have no endurance, but I can't even fart when I've run dry?

Why does a simple no-name minion's cheap Wal-Mart sledgehammer do as much or more damage than my 3-SO slotted "high damage" attack?

The list is virtually endless. For a game that's supposed to be a Super Hero RPG, they sure go far outta their way to make us feel most decidedly un-super. And again, no amount of respeccing and reslotting is ever going to change that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sums up CoH for me. It's why I left for a year. I came back for inventions and because a few friends still play. I think once my 3 months are up, I'll be going away again, because for a superhero MMO, you aren't very super compared tot eh people you fight.

When every AV, boss, and EB is far more powerful than you can ever hope to become, no matter how many respecs, slots, or inventions you put into your powers... Why bother? It just isn't fun for me to play as a second-rate hero, far less than the signature heroes and villains. They're so far out of our league, it takes 8 of US to equal one of THEM.

[Dragon_Clan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they could do that.

They can do anything they damn well want, ultimately.

I don't see them doing that for non-endgame content, because I think it would be stupid.

You may thing Hamidon's design is stupid. I don't, for reasons stated. If things that poke through phase shift and hibernate start showing up in door missions then I'll be on the bandwagon with you.

Simply because they did it in this particular case doesn't mean they're dense enough to do it everywhere.



[/ QUOTE ]

What I would like to see is "new" powers given to mobs instead of using the same powers we have but not following the same rules. If we can't stack vengeance neither should the mobs, come up with something creative instead. I hate to use the word realism because this is a game about comic heroes, but it is frustrating to have our species (heroes) "devolve" while mobs "evolve".

[Aura_Familia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.

The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor do I feel it should be the only thing, and I didn't suggest it should. I was talking specifically about the cost/benefit analysis of improving the core engine to support larger mass combat as a slider setting. I consider the "cost" of that analysis to include time lost for working on new powersets/ATs, new mission features, fixing old bugs and other things that would require programmer resources. (I feel pretty confident that the mission and zone editing staff are not the same as the programming staff.)

[ QUOTE ]
Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe there was a change to PS. There was a change to Hamidon, or possibly to the "Untouchable" status effect (which affects more than PS) to give Hamidon a free pass. None of the changes to Hamidon were enumerated in the patch notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is not only a change to hamidon, its a fundamental change in how a power works. If there are exceptions to how a power works then those exceptions should at least be listed in the power description.

Ex: PA is invincible could be changed to PA is invicible to all, except certain higher level entities.

But yes I agree patch note changes to Hami are not needed or advised.

Also, neither you or I know if the core engine would have to be touched to support larger mass combat, as only the devs know what needs to be done. The fact that the programming staff and zone/editing staff are not the same is also an aside, as you might still need the programming staff to program the AI for the new behavior in these missions and/or zone (if the new behavior was say for only the moon zone.)

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.

The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.

The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.

And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.

NOW you feel like a super hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this could be achieved by simply adding another "difficulty setting" where enemy number would be three times more than normal but conning green minions and blue lieutenants. Some of my characters would really enjoy such a setting.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a fun idea :)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny you mention this, cause here's a little test I give to people who doubt my above suggestion.

Put together a team of 4 people, making sure at least 1 of them is 4 levels below you. Have that person get a scanner mish and put the difficulty up one notch to increase spawn size. Now everyone enter the mission, but stay at the door and do not fight. All except you, that is. Now go thru the mission and defeat everything that moves.

After you've done this, leave the team and get your own solo scanner mish and set the difficulty to whatever you like. Now go do it, defeating anything that moves.

When you've finished that, stop and take a moment to reflect, and ask yourself, which mission was more FUN?

The vast majority will choose the first mission, where you were fighting large quantities of weaker foes.

The sad part, unfortunately, which is invariably tied to my point, is that the "fun" mission will net you about 1/5th the XP as the "not really fun, just moderately entertaining" mission.

So why is it that to really have fun playing this game I need a posse of 3 other people fighting foes that are 3-4 levels below me for 1/5th the XP I'd normally get??

If that's not broken, god help us...

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ex: PA is invincible could be changed to PA is invicible to all, except certain higher level entities.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be fine by my. Of course, it'd be nice if they updated more powers to actually say what the powers do first.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, neither you or I know if the core engine would have to be touched to support larger mass combat, as only the devs know what needs to be done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, only the devs know what needs to be done. And they told us this (mass enemies in missions) was stressful to the core game engine. I'm not pulling that out of my nether regions. We know it for a fact.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the programming staff and zone/editing staff are not the same is also an aside, as you might still need the programming staff to program the AI for the new behavior in these missions and/or zone (if the new behavior was say for only the moon zone.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was an aside. I mentioned that actual programming staff might be needed when I said "new mission features". My point in the aside is that new missions and art do not automatically require programmer resources; they can make new missions, new powers and even new mobs using existing tech without programmer resources. Those things would simply work like everything else we already have.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority will choose the first mission, where you were fighting large quantities of weaker foes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can make up statistics or sweeping generalizations too. That doesn't make them truth.

I don't share your opinion on this, and neither do most of the people I play with. Doing what you describe would bore me and many of them, because there's no challenge in it.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.

[/ QUOTE ]

The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.

Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.

Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival. All things are possible with time and money, but that example alone tells me there would need to be other under-the-hood changes to allow a slider setting like this.

Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.

Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.

Nor do I think that making Hamidon able to blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points. But like any global change everything would need to be adjusted to get the balance just right, including handling AOE damage and drop rates.

And my suggestion doesn't in any way mean disposing of the difficulty slider. There is no reason there can't be more settings that will customize the game to everyone's liking. If you prefer less, but harder foes, there could be a difficulty setting that gives just bosses, as an example.

Will a change like this necessarily bring back those that left and/or new players? Personally I think it would, but that's just my opinion. Unfortunately we'll never know cause I doubt it'll ever see the light of day.

I guess one way to test for this would be Celestial's idea of adding another difficulty level that spawns larger quantities at lower levels (making up for the xp differential in say, a larger mission bonus), and gauge playerbase response. But again, I just don't see it ever happening.

[Broomhilda]

[ QUOTE ]
Because everyone isn't in this for the most efficient way.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep your absolutly right. and that is not what I was saying.

[ QUOTE ]
Because I predict that, in around 8 weeks time, there will be little difference in the time it takes to do a raid or an RSF/STF.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hami raid in 30min? Nope not going to happen. STF/LRSF happens every night that way.

[ QUOTE ]
Because not everyone has a team to do the STF/RSF on, or has the right AT to get one from people running them who are frequently unnecessarily elitest about who they admit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well right now most ppl are just figuring out the STF and so they want ppl around them that know what there doing. As they figure it out they will open up to outsiders more.

[ QUOTE ]
Because you can do both and get two HOs or two recipies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actully you cant get 2 HO AND 2 rares a day if you run them twice each.

[ QUOTE ]
Because beating on anything with 50 people is cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ill do you one better. Because beating on anything with 50 people is so Laggy that it isnt fun or cool. But the funny part is that you would thing its easier to get 50 ppl to do something than it is to get 8 ppl.

Anyways have a good one :)

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority will choose the first mission, where you were fighting large quantities of weaker foes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can make up statistics or sweeping generalizations too. That doesn't make them truth.

I don't share your opinion on this, and neither do most of the people I play with. Doing what you describe would bore me and many of them, because there's no challenge in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually tried it? If not, then your opinion is based solely upon supposition. You'd be surprised how quickly a large mob of -3s can beat down most toons.

Now granted, my sample size is quite small, perhaps about 10 people (none of which were friends of mine or even people I'd previously met), but every single one of them admitted the larger-mob mission was more fun to them.

You and your friends might disagree (and again, I don't think you can really have a valid opinion until you've actually tried it) but then again, you and all your friends aren't a good sample size either ;)

[Kitsune9tails]

Only the Devs have the metrics to support either side in such a debate.

However, they have a vested interest in pleasing BOTH camps, hence the present design.

[Obsidius]

Since we're so off-topic from the OP anyhow WillyReborn (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm)...

Easy Chocolate Saucepan Brownies
From Diana Rattray

These chocolate brownies are easy to mix up in a saucepan, and they're chewy, moist, and delicious!
INGREDIENTS:

* 6 tablespoons butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1/2 teaspoon vanilla
* 1 cup granulated sugar
* 2 large eggs
* 3/4 cup all-purpose flour
* 1/4 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/2 cup chopped pecans or walnuts

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 325°. Grease and flour an 8-inch square baking pan.

In a saucepan over low heat, melt the butter and chocolate, stirring constantly. Remove from heat and let cool. With a whisk, beat in the vanilla and sugar.

Whisk in eggs, one at a time, beating well after each addition. Stir flour, measure into a small bowl, and stir in the baking powder and salt, blending well. With a wooden spoon, stir the flour mixture into the first mixture. Stir in the chopped nuts, blending well. Spoon into the prepared pan and spread evenly. Bake the brownies for about 25 minutes.

Muffin Cup Brownies
From Diana Rattray

Serve these round brownies with a big scoop of ice cream and dessert topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* 2/3 cup sifted all-purpose flour (sift before measuring)
* 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/3 cup butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1 cup sugar
* 2 eggs, beaten
* 1/2 cup coarsely chopped pecans
* 1 teaspoon vanilla

PREPARATION:
Preheat oven to 350°. Grease 12 muffin cups.
Sift flour with baking powder and salt. Sift again. Melt butter and chocolate over hot water.

In mixing bowl with electric mixer, beat eggs. Beat in sugar until well blended. Blend in chocolate mixture. Stir in flour mixture until well blended then stir in vanilla and pecans. Fill muffin cups about 1/3 full. Bake for about 20 to 25 minutes, until done. Cool before removing from pan. Makes 14 round muffin brownies. Serve with vanilla ice cream and butterscotch or chocolate fudge sauce, if desired.

Chocolate Brownies with Praline Topping

From Diana Rattray
Chocolate brownies with a praline pecan topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* Praline Topping
* 1/4 cup butter
* 2 tablespoons flour
* 3/4 cups firmly packed brown sugar
* 2 eggs
* 1 teaspoon vanilla
* 2 cups chopped pecans
* .
* Brownies
* 1 (21-1/2 oz) package Pillsbury fudge brownie mix
* 1/2 cup water
* 1/4 cup oil
* 1 egg

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 350°. Grease bottom only of 13x9x2-inch baking pan. Melt butter in medium saucepan over medium-low heat; stir in flour until smooth. Add brown sugar and 2 eggs; mix well.Cook for 5 minutes, stirring constantly. Remove from heat; stir in vanilla and pecans. Set aside.

In large bowl,combine all brownie ingredients;beat 50 strokes with spoon. Spread in prepared pan. Spoon topping evenly over brownie layer. Bake at 350° for 30-35 minutes or until set. Do not over cook. Cool completely and cut into bars. Makes about 2 dozen brownies.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The vast majority will choose the first mission, where you were fighting large quantities of weaker foes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can make up statistics or sweeping generalizations too. That doesn't make them truth.

I don't share your opinion on this, and neither do most of the people I play with. Doing what you describe would bore me and many of them, because there's no challenge in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

62.8% of all statistics are made up.

Bet you didn't know that ;)

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Actully you cant get 2 HO AND 2 rares a day if you run them twice each.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can run each twice. They are on different timers, as I understand it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because beating on anything with 50 people is cool.


[/ QUOTE ]Ill do you one better. Because beating on anything with 50 people is so Laggy that it isnt fun or cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but get a better computer and this will change. I suffer zero lag at Hami raids until there are over 90 people on the server. I run at full graphics settings, too. (Notably running in safe mode also improves it a great deal for folks with less beefy systems.)

50 people is not sufficient to cause server-side lag at a Hami raid. Some of the fastest pre-I9 raids have been 50-60 people.

Finally:

[ QUOTE ]
A hami raid in 30min? Nope not going to happen. STF/LRSF happens every night that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have your expectations reversed. First of all, 30 minutes is not even remotely normal. That's maximally optimized teams with strong debuffers, full bore use of nukes and/or Shivans, and everything to speed it up. I believe that the eventual availability of a raid to the average player is going to be vastly higher than an STF that runs under an hour.

If that doesn't change, then I think you can expect either the STF/RSF to change, or the tools we're using to breeze through them to. The devs have stated that the two should be comparable in time, if not effort (it's harder to get 50 people in synch). I'll be disappointed if they don't track that.

[UnSub]

[ QUOTE ]

All good points. But like any global change everything would need to be adjusted to get the balance just right, including handling AOE damage and drop rates.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given that how one enemy treats one power generates this much energetic discussion, I doubt the devs saying, "We are now tweaking AoE damage since you'll be fighting more enemies," would be met with enthusiasm.

[ QUOTE ]

Will a change like this necessarily bring back those that left and/or new players? Personally I think it would, but that's just my opinion. Unfortunately we'll never know cause I doubt it'll ever see the light of day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, given that the major complaint leveled at CoH/V is that all you do is fight enemies, I don't think giving players the option to fight more enemies per mission is really going to draw the crowds back.

CoH/V is already one of the most action-packed MMOGs on the market. Personally I find 'fun' in a mission where a team gets into that zone of continuous battle where things are operating like a machine. Had a great Safeguard team yesterday where we fought running battles against blue- through to yellow-con enemies.

Also, previously you mentioned that if the number of enemies increased, the devs should drop per enemy xp to 80% (or by 80%) to reflect their less threatening status (because they'd also been reduced in power). I can only imagine how badly "the devs nerfed xp!" would shake these forums to their very core.

[Crimson_Scarab]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What slotting will let us hit phase shifted targets?

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
Since we're so off-topic from the OP anyhow WillyReborn (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm)...

Easy Chocolate Saucepan Brownies
From Diana Rattray

These chocolate brownies are easy to mix up in a saucepan, and they're chewy, moist, and delicious!
INGREDIENTS:

* 6 tablespoons butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1/2 teaspoon vanilla
* 1 cup granulated sugar
* 2 large eggs
* 3/4 cup all-purpose flour
* 1/4 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/2 cup chopped pecans or walnuts

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 325°. Grease and flour an 8-inch square baking pan.

In a saucepan over low heat, melt the butter and chocolate, stirring constantly. Remove from heat and let cool. With a whisk, beat in the vanilla and sugar.

Whisk in eggs, one at a time, beating well after each addition. Stir flour, measure into a small bowl, and stir in the baking powder and salt, blending well. With a wooden spoon, stir the flour mixture into the first mixture. Stir in the chopped nuts, blending well. Spoon into the prepared pan and spread evenly. Bake the brownies for about 25 minutes.

Muffin Cup Brownies
From Diana Rattray

Serve these round brownies with a big scoop of ice cream and dessert topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* 2/3 cup sifted all-purpose flour (sift before measuring)
* 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/3 cup butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1 cup sugar
* 2 eggs, beaten
* 1/2 cup coarsely chopped pecans
* 1 teaspoon vanilla

PREPARATION:
Preheat oven to 350°. Grease 12 muffin cups.
Sift flour with baking powder and salt. Sift again. Melt butter and chocolate over hot water.

In mixing bowl with electric mixer, beat eggs. Beat in sugar until well blended. Blend in chocolate mixture. Stir in flour mixture until well blended then stir in vanilla and pecans. Fill muffin cups about 1/3 full. Bake for about 20 to 25 minutes, until done. Cool before removing from pan. Makes 14 round muffin brownies. Serve with vanilla ice cream and butterscotch or chocolate fudge sauce, if desired.

Chocolate Brownies with Praline Topping

From Diana Rattray
Chocolate brownies with a praline pecan topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* Praline Topping
* 1/4 cup butter
* 2 tablespoons flour
* 3/4 cups firmly packed brown sugar
* 2 eggs
* 1 teaspoon vanilla
* 2 cups chopped pecans
* .
* Brownies
* 1 (21-1/2 oz) package Pillsbury fudge brownie mix
* 1/2 cup water
* 1/4 cup oil
* 1 egg

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 350°. Grease bottom only of 13x9x2-inch baking pan. Melt butter in medium saucepan over medium-low heat; stir in flour until smooth. Add brown sugar and 2 eggs; mix well.Cook for 5 minutes, stirring constantly. Remove from heat; stir in vanilla and pecans. Set aside.

In large bowl,combine all brownie ingredients;beat 50 strokes with spoon. Spread in prepared pan. Spoon topping evenly over brownie layer. Bake at 350° for 30-35 minutes or until set. Do not over cook. Cool completely and cut into bars. Makes about 2 dozen brownies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm much more partial to

[censored] Pie

Sure to satisfy even the most annoying and obnoxious posters with absolutely nothing valid to contribute!

INGREDIENTS:

*1 cup of Shove it Up Your [censored]
*1/2 cup of troll bitters
*2 sticks horseshit
*1/2 tsp vitriol
*1/4 tsp bile
and just a pinch of strychnine

PREPARATION:

Mix all ingredients in a large mixing bowl. Pour mixture into a 9" [censored] and bake up your [censored] at 400F for 45 minutes or until a toothpick stuck up your urethra comes clean.

Serves 8, unless they're bitter, then serves 1

[EarthFury]

[ QUOTE ]
No kidding.

Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.

Lazy answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

We use our intelligence, well most of us hopefully, to adapt our battle tactics to new circumstances and challenges. And respec our builds for that also.

[Mieux]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we move this thread to the Tank forums? It feels like a Tank thread.

[/ QUOTE ] That is hilarious.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm actually quite fascinated with board mentality. It's really interesting the lengths that people will delude themselves about reality and facts because of their emotional stance on certain issues. I think it was Jem's response to me that players are more limited with every issue....ignoring I9 of course right? Or that players can't adapt.....ignoring respecs right?

The problem, imo, is that there isn't enough adapting in this game. Our enemies don't change and we haven't had to either. Obviously too much change is stressful, but I'm all in favor of putting more pressure on players to have to pay attention. Maybe not a lot more, but some. Maybe not in every aspect of the game, but in more than just the Hami raid.

I don't think these devs are perfect by any means. The Stalker mechanic in PvP is one of the worst decisions I've seen a design team make or allow to happen.

For all the people who feel something like this is worth quitting over, consider that one of the reasons for change is so that players are faced with new challenges. Common sense tells us that if the game becomes stagnant, people will get bored and quit. This approach is beyond obvious and evident in the release of patches and expansions in almost every major MMO. As someone has already stated, the game has to change or it may not remain financially viable. Again, as someone stated, sometimes those changes work against specific players and sometimes the work for them.

You have to take the good with the bad or you'll just keep bouncing between MMO's endlessly.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
I've not yet seen anyone on the forums posit a design for an entity that can take on 50 players with consistent challenge that never breaks any rule the players have. I'll be very impressed if I do see it. I'll be even more impressed if it's something that the devs could implement without something like engine changes or other time-consuming modifications, meaning they'd have to prioritize their development time around it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like an interesting weekend challenge...

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds like an interesting weekend challenge...

[/ QUOTE ]

When I wrote that, I though of you. Seriously.

In fact, if I hadn't thought of you, I might have been tempted to write something more along the lines of "we'll never see it." ;)

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
You may thing Hamidon's design is stupid. I don't, for reasons stated. If things that poke through phase shift and hibernate start showing up in door missions then I'll be on the bandwagon with you.

Simply because they did it in this particular case doesn't mean they're dense enough to do it everywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one thing that concerns me about this design decision is that if there is *anywhere* you would expect the devs to pull out the cleverness-stops, it would be with Hamidon. After all, there's only one of him: however much work you decide to put into him, you only have to do it once, and its for a show-piece element of content.

The fact that they immediately went essentially to hacks to make Hamidon more difficult (and some initially massive blow-the-doors-off ultra-high numbers) implies that there's a good chance they would think its even *less* worth it to employ creative means to make more "mundane" encounters more tricky.

If you won't pull out the stops to make Hamidon's AI very tricky, or his powers design more intricate, you're even less likely to ever think its worth it to make Hellion-AI more tricky or make nemesis bosses more intricate. And thats not a good thing.

[Patient_V]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

And maybe one day Hamidon will evolve into an enjoyable event.

[Wavicle]

have you tried the new raid?

[goldbricker]

Going waaay back to BAB's post.

[ QUOTE ]

Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am totally on board with that motivation.

[ QUOTE ]

Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution.


[/ QUOTE ]

This started out as fine logic, up until the point where phase shift is suddenly something it never was. In fictional terms, what you've done isn't an evolution of hami. It's a devolvution of phase shift. And that is a (not particularly egregious) mistake. That's the issue that the players are trying to get across.

[ QUOTE ]

Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with that motivation. (Note: this tone of answer offers no recognition that the player is trying to offer one example as proof that there are ways to evolve hami for your purposes yet stay within the bounds of the established 'fiction' of phase shift.)

[ QUOTE ]

We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between an encounter being a challenge, and an encounter being incredible. This change (at least lacking the significant fictional backup required to explain why/how a damage source in normal reality can affect a target phase shifted out of normal reality), this change has no credibility. This mechanic isn't a challenge in a hami raid, it's an artificial discontinuity in the same class as the invisible hami during a 200-man old school hold phase.

Anyone can slap a post-it note on any character with 'evolved' written on it. That doesn't make it credible or even aesthetically appealing. (That's part of the reason why many content creators are so aggressive with copyright and trademark.)

In this case (hami being cheap vs. phase shift), the credibility is not there, and thus we come back to the original question: What is the value of phase shift? What is phase shift?

It was (likely exactly) designed fictionally to be a perfect invulnerability at the cost of heavy end use plus near perfect isolation. Later there was added an artificial time limit (to limit hami exploits) and broadened isolation (to prevent glowie interaction that was previously allowed).

The perfect invulnerability should remain, because (outside of fiction) that's the whole point of the power and how it has been implemented in the powerset system.

That said, the question remains as to how Hami has to evolve to phase shift tactics that both makes sense fictionally and addresses the goal of being an effective but not overwhelming countertactic. How would one approach the problem if he were hami?

Ignoring phase shifters is an obvious approach. But ignoring a shifter's pets seems inconsistent with normal hami behavior. It seems a bit unfair that pets can still somehow maintain a link to a master under phase shift. Perhaps hami can evolve to feel out this link? Why not make a change so that any player that both has a self-only effect on them (like phase shift or rest or personal force field) and has a pet out, then any power or effect that lands on any such pet (even if the pet were invulnerable) is duplicated on the master, and in fact, any extra buffs or mitigation on the master are ignored by the duplicated effects.

Another thing Hami can evolve is the nature of his goo. He might not be able to affect players currently on an unreal plane, but he can evolve to warp the reality around him so that it's harder to maintain the shift. How about... if hami sees a phase shifter coming, he can shift the nature of his goo from a slow/interrupt aoe to a strong end penalty to all powers aoe.

In any case, the only advantage the approach of cheap-damage-through-phase-shift has over all of the previous suggestions is that it is inexpensive to develop and implement. And, actually, this is a just reason. It may lead to incredulity, which compounds on itself when reasoning of 'hami is evolving' is offered in its place, but if that's the basic truth of the business environment, I can deal with it.

[Thorizdin_LotD]

[ QUOTE ]

If you won't pull out the stops to make Hamidon's AI very tricky, or his powers design more intricate, you're even less likely to ever think its worth it to make Hellion-AI more tricky or make nemesis bosses more intricate. And thats not a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't think they can, at least not easily. I'd imagine that somewhere high up on the class inheritance tree there is a class that is the parent of all the mobs in the game and changing Hami is going mean a lot of work and/or risk of bugs. That's not say that its not worth while, but that its hard.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you won't pull out the stops to make Hamidon's AI very tricky, or his powers design more intricate, you're even less likely to ever think its worth it to make Hellion-AI more tricky or make nemesis bosses more intricate. And thats not a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't think they can, at least not easily. I'd imagine that somewhere high up on the class inheritance tree there is a class that is the parent of all the mobs in the game and changing Hami is going mean a lot of work and/or risk of bugs. That's not say that its not worth while, but that its hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

The intrinsic assumption here is that the game is designed as an object-oriented hierarchy. Based on the information we have about how a lot of things function in the game, this appears to be virtually impossible to be true. There have been many instances of the devs admitting that particular critters' AI was malfunctioning to not use particular powers, or use them much less frequently than intended, and that generally centered around specific critters, not all critters in general, which implies changes to the behavior of a specific type of critter is usually isolated from all others of different types (although there are probably generic "behavior libraries" that all the critters can tap into).

Its also very likely that many "special" critters like Hamidon are entities unto themselves, with special coding that determines their basic behavior (separate from certain general things that are likely true by default for all critters, like their tendancy to shoot at you when they detect you).

The point, though, is that whatever entanglements that *do* exist when changing things, they almost certainly don't involve Hamidon, because its clear Hamidon follows his own rules. So if they were going to change anything, the perfect candidate is Hamidon, because its very unlikely to cause side-effects elsewhere in the game.

Hamidon is a form of canary in the cage. If the devs don't think something is worth it for Hamidon, its very likely they won't think its worth it for very much else.

[Chill_Out]

[ QUOTE ]


When every AV, boss, and EB is far more powerful than you can ever hope to become, no matter how many respecs, slots, or inventions you put into your powers... Why bother? It just isn't fun for me to play as a second-rate hero, far less than the signature heroes and villains. They're so far out of our league, it takes 8 of US to equal one of THEM.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand why having some heroes/villains actually be more powerful than PCs is an issue.

I can directly draw from comic books a number of antagonists who are more than the equal of the JLA or West Coast Avengers. Can't you recall any number of times groups of heroes fight a single foe?

Certainly Hamidon is no more out of place in its power than Galactus is.

We are not the the heroes at the top of the power pyramid like Green Lantern or Superman - we play the middle rank heros, such as Cyclops, Gambit, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Quicksilver, and Collosus.

[Poison_Pill]

[ QUOTE ]
Going waaay back to BAB's post.

[ QUOTE ]

Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am totally on board with that motivation.

[ QUOTE ]

Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution.


[/ QUOTE ]

This started out as fine logic, up until the point where phase shift is suddenly something it never was. In fictional terms, what you've done isn't an evolution of hami. It's a devolvution of phase shift. And that is a (not particularly egregious) mistake. That's the issue that the players are trying to get across.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your right that is so totally fake. That could never happen. Fix it. While your at fix that team AoE damage does not hurt you.

/end_sarcasm

Dude the game is rock/paper/scissors. Do you think it is fair I can stop a regen's regen or storms can knock my pets silly, blah blah... So phase shift now has scissors to cut through it. Big deal, get over it. So Hamidon has figured a way to hit out of phase. /clue It's a game. /end_clue Do you really want to get into what's real and logical?? AT's & Powers all have their Achilles' heal. Pop your EoE's and be happy you have those.

Poison Pill

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon is a form of canary in the cage. If the devs don't think something is worth it for Hamidon, its very likely they won't think its worth it for very much else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some consideration has to be given to the meaning of "worth it" in this case, however.

The devs had, I think, a strong motivation to even the balance between what heroes could do to get HOs and what villains could. A lot of heroes were clamoring for an RSF. A few villains were clamoring for a Hamidon raid (I know I was). I think the devs spotted that and decided to deliver.

Simultaneously, they realized that the existing Hami raid was not only seriously worn out heroside, it was not going to translate well to villains. So they redesigned it. All in the same scope of development where they were adding one of the biggest changes to the game yet - Inventions.

I think what they did deliver is pretty damn good viewed in that light (please note I'm not implying you said otherwise). I am willing to accept this "hack" on the basis that making Hami 's AI better wasn't "worth it" on the timescale required to fit changing him into I9. That's an assumption on my part, but based on what we know I think it's a well-educated one.

To address the credibility of the change (from an earlier post), I find it neither incredible nor inappropriate. While I don't want to appeal much to the fiction since it's highly variable, comics are rife with beings who were so badass that they could hit intangible or harm otherwise invulnerable foes with minimal effort. Hamidon is supposed to be on a class unlike any other in Co*, and it frankly was odd to me that he wasn't always able to penetrate the inpenetrable or dismiss the illusory.

This isn't a defense, per se, of the devs never doing Hamidon more justice as an entity. He remains a large bag of HP and outrageous damage, and I wouldn't be very credible if I claimed they couldn't ultimately do better than that. But I don't think the change to how he interacts with "Untouchable" has to be indicative of what they might do with his or any other mob's AI. They can be orthoginal concerns.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The intrinsic assumption here is that the game is designed as an object-oriented hierarchy. Based on the information we have about how a lot of things function in the game, this appears to be virtually impossible to be true. There have been many instances of the devs admitting that particular critters' AI was malfunctioning to not use particular powers, or use them much less frequently than intended, and that generally centered around specific critters, not all critters in general, which implies changes to the behavior of a specific type of critter is usually isolated from all others of different types (although there are probably generic "behavior libraries" that all the critters can tap into).

Its also very likely that many "special" critters like Hamidon are entities unto themselves, with special coding that determines their basic behavior (separate from certain general things that are likely true by default for all critters, like their tendancy to shoot at you when they detect you).

[/ QUOTE ]

I did want to strongly agree here. It's terribly obvious that almost nothing in the game uses any sort of behavioral or value inheritance, even where it would seemingly be very useful and not unduly expensive.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since we're so off-topic from the OP anyhow WillyReborn (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm)...

Easy Chocolate Saucepan Brownies
From Diana Rattray

These chocolate brownies are easy to mix up in a saucepan, and they're chewy, moist, and delicious!
INGREDIENTS:

* 6 tablespoons butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1/2 teaspoon vanilla
* 1 cup granulated sugar
* 2 large eggs
* 3/4 cup all-purpose flour
* 1/4 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/2 cup chopped pecans or walnuts

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 325°. Grease and flour an 8-inch square baking pan.

In a saucepan over low heat, melt the butter and chocolate, stirring constantly. Remove from heat and let cool. With a whisk, beat in the vanilla and sugar.

Whisk in eggs, one at a time, beating well after each addition. Stir flour, measure into a small bowl, and stir in the baking powder and salt, blending well. With a wooden spoon, stir the flour mixture into the first mixture. Stir in the chopped nuts, blending well. Spoon into the prepared pan and spread evenly. Bake the brownies for about 25 minutes.

Muffin Cup Brownies
From Diana Rattray

Serve these round brownies with a big scoop of ice cream and dessert topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* 2/3 cup sifted all-purpose flour (sift before measuring)
* 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1/3 cup butter
* 2 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 1 cup sugar
* 2 eggs, beaten
* 1/2 cup coarsely chopped pecans
* 1 teaspoon vanilla

PREPARATION:
Preheat oven to 350°. Grease 12 muffin cups.
Sift flour with baking powder and salt. Sift again. Melt butter and chocolate over hot water.

In mixing bowl with electric mixer, beat eggs. Beat in sugar until well blended. Blend in chocolate mixture. Stir in flour mixture until well blended then stir in vanilla and pecans. Fill muffin cups about 1/3 full. Bake for about 20 to 25 minutes, until done. Cool before removing from pan. Makes 14 round muffin brownies. Serve with vanilla ice cream and butterscotch or chocolate fudge sauce, if desired.

Chocolate Brownies with Praline Topping

From Diana Rattray
Chocolate brownies with a praline pecan topping.
INGREDIENTS:

* Praline Topping
* 1/4 cup butter
* 2 tablespoons flour
* 3/4 cups firmly packed brown sugar
* 2 eggs
* 1 teaspoon vanilla
* 2 cups chopped pecans
* .
* Brownies
* 1 (21-1/2 oz) package Pillsbury fudge brownie mix
* 1/2 cup water
* 1/4 cup oil
* 1 egg

PREPARATION:
Heat oven to 350°. Grease bottom only of 13x9x2-inch baking pan. Melt butter in medium saucepan over medium-low heat; stir in flour until smooth. Add brown sugar and 2 eggs; mix well.Cook for 5 minutes, stirring constantly. Remove from heat; stir in vanilla and pecans. Set aside.

In large bowl,combine all brownie ingredients;beat 50 strokes with spoon. Spread in prepared pan. Spoon topping evenly over brownie layer. Bake at 350° for 30-35 minutes or until set. Do not over cook. Cool completely and cut into bars. Makes about 2 dozen brownies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm much more partial to

[censored] Pie

Sure to satisfy even the most annoying and obnoxious posters with absolutely nothing valid to contribute!

INGREDIENTS:

*1 cup of Shove it Up Your [censored]
*1/2 cup of troll bitters
*2 sticks horseshit
*1/2 tsp vitriol
*1/4 tsp bile
and just a pinch of strychnine

PREPARATION:

Mix all ingredients in a large mixing bowl. Pour mixture into a 9" [censored] and bake up your [censored] at 400F for 45 minutes or until a toothpick stuck up your urethra comes clean.

Serves 8, unless they're bitter, then serves 1

[/ QUOTE ]

I was contributing something - brownies :)

Perhaps something more cerebral or philosophical:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

[Redlynne]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong here ... but if Hamidon/Mitos/et al. target a pet and unload on it, doesn't that pet get toasted almost instantly? How long is a pet "supposed to" be able to tank a Mito/Hamidon before getting blown away?

If the answer is one (or two) hit(s) before the pet is sent off to join the everlasting choir invisibile (cash donations in the dearly departed pet's memory can be sent to Cryptic Studios, all major credit cards honored) it makes me wonder if Hamidon's AI shouldn't be configured in such a way as to take only a single shot at a "pet class" target (of any type) and then move onto a different target within range. That way a Phantom Army could act (and I quote) ... "as a distraction" ... but not as a means to be a stand-in tank made of unbelievium which holds aggro.

Basically the end result behavior would be that if a pet (any type) draws aggro from Hamidon (et al.) then only a single potshot (or two) is directed at that pet, after which Hamidon "moves on" in the aggro rotation. Essentially then, in the context of phase shifted heroes/pets, Hamidon would attempt to "tag" the shifted target but after the first/second UNAFFECTED! would "wise up" and start shooting something else.

Just a thought. ;)
It would certainly fulfill the (highly abbreviated) description of behavior that the devs (in this case BAB) seem to be seeking.

[Captain Fabulous]

<snip>

[ QUOTE ]

I was contributing something - brownies :)

Perhaps something more cerebral or philosophical:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

[/ QUOTE ]

<snip>

Are you off your Thorazine again?

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
<snip>

[ QUOTE ]

I was contributing something - brownies :)

Perhaps something more cerebral or philosophical:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

[/ QUOTE ]

<snip>

Are you off your Thorazine again?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mmmm Thorazine... never had any. Plenty of Novocaine, but those are different stories altogether.

I could use some Red Death (that's a recipe I'm NOT giving out, unless one asks really nice) and a cigar though, but I'll get enough of those this weekend.

As Billy Joel once said, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints/ The sinners are much more fun."

Faire awaits :)

[Poison_Pill]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong here ... but if Hamidon/Mitos/et al. target a pet and unload on it, doesn't that pet get toasted almost instantly? How long is a pet "supposed to" be able to tank a Mito/Hamidon before getting blown away?


[/ QUOTE ]

60 seconds. Give a bruiser an EoE, some reds, and Noxious Gas and let him go to town. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Poison Pill

[Thorizdin_LotD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The intrinsic assumption here is that the game is designed as an object-oriented hierarchy. Based on the information we have about how a lot of things function in the game, this appears to be virtually impossible to be true. There have been many instances of the devs admitting that particular critters' AI was malfunctioning to not use particular powers, or use them much less frequently than intended, and that generally centered around specific critters, not all critters in general, which implies changes to the behavior of a specific type of critter is usually isolated from all others of different types (although there are probably generic "behavior libraries" that all the critters can tap into).

Its also very likely that many "special" critters like Hamidon are entities unto themselves, with special coding that determines their basic behavior (separate from certain general things that are likely true by default for all critters, like their tendancy to shoot at you when they detect you).

[/ QUOTE ]

I did want to strongly agree here. It's terribly obvious that almost nothing in the game uses any sort of behavioral or value inheritance, even where it would seemingly be very useful and not unduly expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't say that they necessarily did a good job, but a discussion over how and why Hasten was so hard to fix led me to believe that the designers did use OO design. Perhaps I'm just not seeing it, but what makes you think that mob behavior isn't based off a common class? I don't see many variations that I'd consider difficult to code or would require lots of overridden methods (or whatever they call it in C these days).

[UberGuy]

In particular, if you've ever seen how the powers are defined, each is a distinct copy, even if the power is identical in every way to one used by another AT. Even different mobs get different copies of the same power, which is why updating powers is such a huge undertaking. This is why some powers for some ATs are broken in odd ways - someone forgot to update one of the copies.

Or, as Arcana mentioned, the AI for some mobs forgets to use certain powers that they have, even when other mobs do use that power. The devs have often fixed such mobs one an individual basis, suggesting that even the AI settings aren't shared (though the "libraries" of general behavior do seem to be).

[Tyger42]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread is making me lmao.

Why would you even do Hami now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the path of least resistance isn't always the most enjoyable for everybody? God, imagine that! Finding large group event raids in an MMO to be fun... For many of us, the item at the end of the raid is just icing. It's the actual fight that's the fun part.

[Rufus_NA]

Really, it comes down to that Phase Shift and Phantom Army (and the rest of the untouchable stuff) are, in general design mistakes. Just like characters easily getting mezzed, these powers make the game *less* interactive and, as a consequence less fun.

The practice of 'nerfing' these powers really comes down to the developers attempting to undo their mistakes. Phantom Army, in particular, is absurdly broken, and should not ever have made it into the game - not even in it's current 'nerfed' form.

[The_Centurion]

So.....we have some creative folks here...why not start a thread and have a little contest to design our own Hamidon Raid?

Maybe if we come up with some good ideas the Dev's can make use of them in the next Hami Evolution.

If it works out we can tackle other game issues that people dislike.

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're enjoying this, aren't you Castle?

I would like to add that our character did just adapt, its called inventions.

Brutes adapted in I7 with Electric melee and electric Armor

Defenders and controllers adapted earlier with Trick Arrow and Sonic Resonance.

Where would the fun in this game be if it wasn't a challenge?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it, it's NOT a challenge. A challenge implies strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted for emphasis. We keep saying this but Cryptic does not get it! You can tell whenever they mention the Boss Hit Point thing. They honestly believe that by increasing the mob hit points they made the fights "harder" when all they did was make the fights "longer". I am still wait to see any evidence they understand this.

Every change they make to Hami (and similar encounters) moves the event ever closer to being nothing more than an exercise in brute force, and boy is that dull!

[UnSub]

Starting the Evolving the Hamidon Further (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8209949&an=0&page=0#Post 8209949) thread for some constructive suggestions about how the Hamidon (or future raid activities) can be improved.

[Broomhilda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but get a better computer and this will change. I suffer zero lag at Hami raids until there are over 90 people on the server. I run at full graphics settings, too. (Notably running in safe mode also improves it a great deal for folks with less beefy systems.)

[/ QUOTE ]

50 people is not sufficient to cause server-side lag at a Hami raid. Some of the fastest pre-I9 raids have been 50-60 people.

[/ QUOTE ]

And no offence but,
Recommended System Requirements:Windows 2000/xp, Intel 2.0 or AMD 2000+, 1 GB ram, 4GB HD Space, NVIDIA 6200+.

Sound right? came right off the box. And I WAY out do this on my machine. I never had lag in this game tell I8. now this is what Cryptic says is a Recommended not Required. The Requirements for the game are much less than that. I have NO lag in any other game I play. So no i dont take offence but your wrong. Im truly happy that you dont get lag but its not my machine or internet. Its the game. O and just so you know im running a 3100 ghz AMD, 2 gb ram, Windows XP, with a NVIDIA 7800 GTX.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Finally:

A hami raid in 30min? Nope not going to happen. STF/LRSF happens every night that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have your expectations reversed. First of all, 30 minutes is not even remotely normal. That's maximally optimized teams with strong debuffers, full bore use of nukes and/or Shivans, and everything to speed it up. I believe that the eventual availability of a raid to the average player is going to be vastly higher than an STF that runs under an hour.

If that doesn't change, then I think you can expect either the STF/RSF to change, or the tools we're using to breeze through them to. The devs have stated that the two should be comparable in time, if not effort (it's harder to get 50 people in synch). I'll be disappointed if they don't track that.

[/ QUOTE ]

No that was no shivans or nukes. And not even close to a op build team. But hay you keep tring and maybe you will figure it out. :) Its so fast in fact that the SG im in will never do a hami raid again. And just so you know thats one of the top 10 SG on all the servers. AND I wont even get into the LRSF because I know a SVG that dose that in less than a half hour. But in the end actully neather one are worth it because you can just do missions and get the same recipies.

But you all have fun fighting the Lag, Greefing and getting that raid up and going. I hope you have fun I really do. Im just not into doing the pure time wasting stuff the devs have put into the game. Of course they also think the shadow shard and the TFs there are the highlights of the game HAHAHAHA. but thats another thread.

But pls understand I am not knocking the change or that, just the timing. That was a lot of wasted time on something that WASN"T broken. There are so many bugs in this game still that have been here sence day one and they eather cant or wont fix them eather due to cant find them or because they benifit the devs by making players take longer to lvl ie. more money for them. O ya and if you think all these changes were done just to make it funner HAHAHAH your way wrong. It is for the almighty dollor.

But in the end I dont play this game like most other ppl. I play it to have my fun and not the Devs fun.

So have a good one and enjoy the time waste er.. I mean raids. :)

[Broomhilda]

Post deleted by Broomhilda

Sry I didnt make this post and the one that did has been well abused Sorry.

[TargetLad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've always felt that phased things should be able to hit phased things. Then they could add some phased out mitos to hami, ones who can only hit phased targets :)

[/ QUOTE ]

QF making sure this doesn't get lost.

I like this idea much better, personally.

Kam

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second that motion - or third- er... yea.

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
In particular, if you've ever seen how the powers are defined, each is a distinct copy, even if the power is identical in every way to one used by another AT. Even different mobs get different copies of the same power, which is why updating powers is such a huge undertaking. This is why some powers for some ATs are broken in odd ways - someone forgot to update one of the copies.

Or, as Arcana mentioned, the AI for some mobs forgets to use certain powers that they have, even when other mobs do use that power. The devs have often fixed such mobs one an individual basis, suggesting that even the AI settings aren't shared (though the "libraries" of general behavior do seem to be).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not commenting on the AI. Just the thoughts on powers in general and how it was mentioned that each power is a distinct copy. Y'see the one thing that I'll say bothers me a little more than other power issues is that Sonic shields that offer the same protection as ( just using examples) Thermal shields only have a difference in fx, not just because they are Sonic or Thermal. Any difference would be because of slotting.This makes the game City of Heroes/Villains FX. Energy power-possessing characters don't get receive a little bonus protection from Energy attacks as an inherant power. Funny, because Matla do if I remember correctly. Fire weilding characters don't receive an inherant resistance to Fire. And these things make no sense. A human torch wouldn't get burned if you know what I mean. I hope when the Marvel game comes out they take these sorts of things into consideration because this game never will.

[The_Centurion]

If you remember the old table top version of Marvel Heroes, the Torch was highly resistant to heat and flame while Iceman was to ice and cold.

I wish that the design here had been done in a "What would (Jack) Kirby do" kinda way instead of being done in the "MMO based on Super Heroes" method.

Imagine PvP if there was no "best" cookie cutter build....where an Ice guy would be very strong against Ice, good against most things and weak against heat and fire. Could you build a Great Ice build that others would emulate? Sure but along comes that fire guy who beats you down because you're all wet.

I really do hope that the MUO is designed from a comic book stand point first and that the mechanics are set to that rather than bending the genre to meet the mechanics.

[Biostem]

The problem is that this game is too general. You can have a fire/ice blaster - what would their strength/weakness be?

The thing is, someoen like iceman is actually an uce blaster/controller/tanker all rolled into one. Even with the APPs, we can't approach that level of performance (due to lower modifiers, longer recharges, etc).

One the same note, you have characters like Jubilee that have like just the tier 1 energy blast power AND NOTHING ELSE.

A good middle ground would be to give blasters, for instance, some passive resists based upon their primary and/or secondary, and call it a day. You're an ice/fire blaster, here's an 8% resist to ice and a 5% reisst to fire. Not game breaking, but a little touch for thematic reasons. You're an earth/rad controller here's 8% s/l resist and 5% energy resist. A bs/regen scrapper - here's 8% s/l resist & 5% toxic resist.

Just little thematic touches. These reisst would NOT be enhanceable, but would provide just a little something.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
So have a good one and enjoy the time waste er.. I mean raids. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

What an elitist bag of wind that post was.

[Biostem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread is making me lmao.

Why would you even do Hami now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the path of least resistance isn't always the most enjoyable for everybody? God, imagine that! Finding large group event raids in an MMO to be fun... For many of us, the item at the end of the raid is just icing. It's the actual fight that's the fun part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you have fun wasting your money that way and ill waste my money actully lvling a toon, not just getting more debt and wasting time. But hay all the power to you. I just think you all are going to be supprised and disapointed. But have fun none the less :)

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you are having fun, it's not a waste of money. To play this game for any reason other than to have fun, is a waste. That is, afterall, the purpose of a videogame, right?

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Respecs + New Slotting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're enjoying this, aren't you Castle?

I would like to add that our character did just adapt, its called inventions.

Brutes adapted in I7 with Electric melee and electric Armor

Defenders and controllers adapted earlier with Trick Arrow and Sonic Resonance.

Where would the fun in this game be if it wasn't a challenge?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it, it's NOT a challenge. A challenge implies strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted for emphasis. We keep saying this but Cryptic does not get it! You can tell whenever they mention the Boss Hit Point thing. They honestly believe that by increasing the mob hit points they made the fights "harder" when all they did was make the fights "longer". I am still wait to see any evidence they understand this.

Every change they make to Hami (and similar encounters) moves the event ever closer to being nothing more than an exercise in brute force, and boy is that dull!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I attempted Hami last night for the first time, and I can honestly say it's not something I will ever likely attempt again, at least not for a long time. It was, without any shadow of doubt, neither FUN nor CHALLENGING.

For starters, virtually all your defensive abilities are utterly useless. Damage is untyped, meaning resistances do nothing. Their tohit buff must be off the charts, cause defense is worthless. Regens fair a tad better due to their nature, until of course they get hit with a -regen debuff which puts them out. Mez protection is a joke, cause one hit broke Unyielding, leaving me near-perma disoriented. And without any fear protection of my own, often perma-terrorized. So basically, what's the point of having powers when none of them do a damned thing? Factor in their own native damage and mez resistances, and we're all nothing but level 1 toons. Sorry, this isn't what we deserve for climbing the ranks to level 50.

And then there are the 3 waves, one at 75%, 50%, and 25%, where Hami respawns all his mitos, and wipes anyone not smart enough to be keeping track of his health and running for cover. Basically, then, you need to not only do this endeavor once, but 3 times.

The level of coordination needed to realistically do this is IMO virtually impossible to obtain amongst 50 people scattered over 6 or more teams.

And then there are the leechers. Ok, you've made it thru one wave, but find you're completely out of break frees, awakens, etc., so you port back to your base or Pocket D to get more. Lo and behold, some jackass has decided to enter the Hive before you return, making it impossible for you to re-enter and rejoin your teammates. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED. It is simply unacceptable. So not only then is the whole raid ridiculously impossible to complete without an SG's level of coordination, but there is no leaving the zone to rez or restock supplies between waves.

I guess the only good thing I can say about the whole affair is that I quickly reached the debt cap, allowing me to work on the debt badges. I can also say that, despite everything else, Hami is quite pretty to look at now.

But will I ever attempt this again? Not a chance in hell. I see no point, unless you're looking to piss away hours of your time, hit the debt cap, and come away with absolutely nothing. I'm perfectly glad to allow others to sort out this big mess and get it down to a science. Perhaps then I can partake of it and actually enjoy myself.

And as an aside, I can also say pretty much the same thing in regard to inventions. With the drop rates being so low and salvage, recipe, and inf costs so high, I can't imaging anyone who doesn't suffer from OCD actually getting a damned thing out of it other than the occasional IO here and there. Unfortunately, what I do see happening is the creation of a new "gold farming" sub-culture of people who continually farm AV missions over and over to obtain all the materials that the average and casual players do not have the time, patience, or incentive to gain on their own. These farmers will then sell their goods to amass large fortunes of inf, which they in turn will sell for real cash to other players from any number of available websites that cater to such.

All this time and anticipation for I9, and what do most of us get? A fat load of nothing.

Oh wait, I forgot something else we get. Mission-based Stealth suppression. Yeah, well, at least that's something we all can look forward to suffering through.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In particular, if you've ever seen how the powers are defined, each is a distinct copy, even if the power is identical in every way to one used by another AT. Even different mobs get different copies of the same power, which is why updating powers is such a huge undertaking. This is why some powers for some ATs are broken in odd ways - someone forgot to update one of the copies.

Or, as Arcana mentioned, the AI for some mobs forgets to use certain powers that they have, even when other mobs do use that power. The devs have often fixed such mobs one an individual basis, suggesting that even the AI settings aren't shared (though the "libraries" of general behavior do seem to be).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not commenting on the AI. Just the thoughts on powers in general and how it was mentioned that each power is a distinct copy. Y'see the one thing that I'll say bothers me a little more than other power issues is that Sonic shields that offer the same protection as ( just using examples) Thermal shields only have a difference in fx, not just because they are Sonic or Thermal. Any difference would be because of slotting.This makes the game City of Heroes/Villains FX. Energy power-possessing characters don't get receive a little bonus protection from Energy attacks as an inherant power. Funny, because Matla do if I remember correctly. Fire weilding characters don't receive an inherant resistance to Fire. And these things make no sense. A human torch wouldn't get burned if you know what I mean. I hope when the Marvel game comes out they take these sorts of things into consideration because this game never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I harped on this issue, hell, musta been over 2 years ago. Never understood why, as a controller who specializes in mezzing people can't "evolve" to gain any kind of meaningful mez protection. Or that how a defender who can form a protective bubble around his teammates that allows them to fight can't do the same for himself. Or how any number of toons can use their power or a device that will heal another, but can't turned the damned thing around and heal themself. Oh, but that would be "unbalanced" they say. Ok, whatev.

And you know that if this ever changes, and fire-based toons get some kind of inherent fire resistance the numbers will be so small it will be meaningless; and of course, being an "auto" or "temp" power, unenhanceable.

But hey, with all these nifty new invention enhancements with their set bonuses you could build some fire resistance into your fire blaster. If you had the 20 million influence it would cost to buy and create all the parts necessary, or had a year or two to spend trying to amass all the salvage and recipes on your own.

Yeah, that's it, it's not that the game doesn't provide it for us, I guess we're just too lazy to achieve it.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
If you remember the old table top version of Marvel Heroes, the Torch was highly resistant to heat and flame while Iceman was to ice and cold.

I wish that the design here had been done in a "What would (Jack) Kirby do" kinda way instead of being done in the "MMO based on Super Heroes" method.

Imagine PvP if there was no "best" cookie cutter build....where an Ice guy would be very strong against Ice, good against most things and weak against heat and fire. Could you build a Great Ice build that others would emulate? Sure but along comes that fire guy who beats you down because you're all wet.

I really do hope that the MUO is designed from a comic book stand point first and that the mechanics are set to that rather than bending the genre to meet the mechanics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, isn't Jack the lead on MUO??? I wouldn't get your hopes up that'll it'll be anything different than CoX set in the Marvel Universe.

[Haetron]

[ QUOTE ]

Well I attempted Hami last night for the first time, and I can honestly say it's not something I will ever likely attempt again, at least not for a long time. It was, without any shadow of doubt, neither FUN nor CHALLENGING.

For starters, virtually all your defensive abilities are utterly useless. Damage is untyped, meaning resistances do nothing. Their tohit buff must be off the charts, cause defense is worthless. Regens fair a tad better due to their nature, until of course they get hit with a -regen debuff which puts them out. Mez protection is a joke, cause one hit broke Unyielding, leaving me near-perma disoriented. And without any fear protection of my own, often perma-terrorized. So basically, what's the point of having powers when none of them do a damned thing? Factor in their own native damage and mez resistances, and we're all nothing but level 1 toons. Sorry, this isn't what we deserve for climbing the ranks to level 50.


[/ QUOTE ]

Prepare to get lynched. ((more :P)) The current forum fanbase is of the opinion that it's perfectly fine for the end game to completely negate half you character, and you'll also have people suggest you use your armors in "new and different ways" such as "Death Shroud for Damage Mitigation and Stacking Cloak of Fear's debuff".

The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well I attempted Hami last night for the first time, and I can honestly say it's not something I will ever likely attempt again, at least not for a long time. It was, without any shadow of doubt, neither FUN nor CHALLENGING.

For starters, virtually all your defensive abilities are utterly useless. Damage is untyped, meaning resistances do nothing. Their tohit buff must be off the charts, cause defense is worthless. Regens fair a tad better due to their nature, until of course they get hit with a -regen debuff which puts them out. Mez protection is a joke, cause one hit broke Unyielding, leaving me near-perma disoriented. And without any fear protection of my own, often perma-terrorized. So basically, what's the point of having powers when none of them do a damned thing? Factor in their own native damage and mez resistances, and we're all nothing but level 1 toons. Sorry, this isn't what we deserve for climbing the ranks to level 50.


[/ QUOTE ]

Prepare to get lynched. ((more :P)) The current forum fanbase is of the opinion that it's perfectly fine for the end game to completely negate half you character, and you'll also have people suggest you use your armors in "new and different ways" such as "Death Shroud for Damage Mitigation and Stacking Cloak of Fear's debuff".

The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And ultimately turned it into yet another elitism inaccessible to average and casual players. When exactly do these players get cool, fun, and challenging (for their skill level) things to do instead of the endless mission grinds and worthless "kill 100 <enter name of foe here>" badges?

Most TFs and trials are beyond what most casual players can do, either due to ability or time. Hami is now completely off the chart. Invention drop rates are too low and associated costs too high to get any kind of meaningful use of them.

So again, I ask, what "fun" and "challenging" things do the average/casual gamers get to do now?

[Captain Fabulous]

And WOW... even my best 2 week estimate has been blown away. I9 was released on Tuesday and by Friday the first round of nerfs hit the test server, 3 whole days!!!

WOO!!!

[Psyonico]

Willy, did you even look at the patch notes (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2092861)?

Basically, the only thing to get "nerfed" was something that was not working right
[ QUOTE ]
Player AT’s damage resistance was not 'capped' vs. the Hamidon’s special damage type. As a result, players could completely eliminate incoming damage from Hamidon via Essence of the Earth inspirations, which is not the intended behavior. Resistance to this damage type now has the standard maximum values as determined by archetype.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Which is not the intended behavior" means, not a nerf, but a bug fix.

Actually, these patch notes seem to have a lot of buffs to the game.

Stop crying Doooooooooommmmm!

[Firebomb]

It's a shame that their special fan-only closed beta, and then an open beta with some raids watched BY a developer didn't seem to notice that these inspirations weren't working 'as intended'.

So much for the improved testing environment.

[Forbin_Project]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Players do adapt constantly. In fact they adapt at every level becoming more powerful and developing new powers, and auras. I.E. Enhancements, Auras, Inventions, and Respecs. Isn't it convienent how you seem to forget the things that benefit you, but complain when the NPC's do the same thing.

It is far easier for a single cell creature to spontaneously adapt to its enviroment than it is for a creature as complex as a human being. Simply look at colds and viruses. They adapt and become more virulent far faster than our own immune systems. If it was the other way around then we would never get sick.

[Broomhilda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread is making me lmao.

Why would you even do Hami now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the path of least resistance isn't always the most enjoyable for everybody? God, imagine that! Finding large group event raids in an MMO to be fun... For many of us, the item at the end of the raid is just icing. It's the actual fight that's the fun part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you have fun wasting your money that way and ill waste my money actully lvling a toon, not just getting more debt and wasting time. But hay all the power to you. I just think you all are going to be supprised and disapointed. But have fun none the less :)

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you are having fun, it's not a waste of money. To play this game for any reason other than to have fun, is a waste. That is, afterall, the purpose of a videogame, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sry and Ill post it here again. I made the post above this one and got a call from a good buddy that his sick father had died. I just droped everything and went to go help him. My nephew that is staying with us thought it was funny to make that post and I am truly sry about that. Lets just say he wont be lifting his arms to type anytime soon. :)

And what I was tring to saying in the post above this one was that these are designed as time wasters due to lack of 45-50 content. Not that its a waste of your time to have fun and do them. Any thing you do and enjoy is not a waste of time. Like I said before I am sry for the second post and the party responseable is being well punished. :)

[Amarsir]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.

[/ QUOTE ]But just Hamidon & Mitos, right?

Can you explain this? (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/alexmarsz/Scirocco_vs_PA.jpg) Did Hami sneak up behind us while we were fighting Scirocco?

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that this game is too general. You can have a fire/ice blaster - what would their strength/weakness be?



[/ QUOTE ]

Simple. Their Primary Power. Their main offensive power should be their main defensive capability IMO. Where I differentiate is where Magical Fire versus a Technology based character. This stuff was never taken into consideration. It would have been nice for immersion, but it's kinda late now. I know.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain this? (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/alexmarsz/Scirocco_vs_PA.jpg) Did Hami sneak up behind us while we were fighting Scirocco?

[/ QUOTE ]

Until we hear otherwise, I would consider that a bug, likely introduced by the change. I also suspect that I saw Recluse destroy a PA last night, though it might simply have expired when I saw the event (it wasn't mine).

I would /bug that definitely. The "final four" AVs and Recluse themselves are plenty challenging, and have no need of such tricks. I also know it's not consistent, as we had PA beating on those AVs (and the AVs beating on PAs) for a long time last night.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Prepare to get lynched. ((more :P)) The current forum fanbase is of the opinion that it's perfectly fine for the end game to completely negate half you character, and you'll also have people suggest you use your armors in "new and different ways" such as "Death Shroud for Damage Mitigation and Stacking Cloak of Fear's debuff".

[/ QUOTE ]

Baloney. Moreover, the current Hamidon actually allows slightly more powers to be effective. It still cuts out defense and now erdoes the benefit of healing, but it now makes more mez protections useful.

[ QUOTE ]
The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.

That's not an easy nut to crack.

If Hami honored defense and DR, do you realize how totally we could negate his threat with 50 people?

I'm not saying the current design is anywhere near the best it could be. But last night I attended a raid that succeeded in under three hours. It was the Justice server's first I9 raid ever, most people there didn't even know how Hami had changed, and we succeeded on our first try. This wasn't some uber-SG-based raid. It was an open raid accessible to anyone who attended (up to the zone cap, of course).

[ QUOTE ]
And ultimately turned it into yet another elitism inaccessible to average and casual players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bzzt. Wrong. All it takes is leaders willing to organize the casual players, and enough casual players to show up. The new raid is even more friendly in the sense that it makes more use of all ATs. There's really an important use for melee types now, for example.

If the strategy can be tuned enough, the time on the raids will come down significantly. Since he can be spawned at will by killing GMs, the old once-a-day (or so) limit is now defunct, and more people can actually potentially raid.

The biggest constraint is on finding enough people willing to lead and not just be lemmings. And I say that as someone who's got a strong lemming streak when it comes to raids. Get enough leaders and you can get more raids. More raids = more people getting rewards. More people getting rewards means more access for more-average players.

Stop fixating on how the changes impacted Phase Shift, and look at the big picture.

[LadyMage]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame that their special fan-only closed beta, and then an open beta with some raids watched BY a developer didn't seem to notice that these inspirations weren't working 'as intended'.

So much for the improved testing environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that they didn't notice it then, and the fix has only just now come through QA?

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame that their special fan-only closed beta, and then an open beta with some raids watched BY a developer didn't seem to notice that these inspirations weren't working 'as intended'.

So much for the improved testing environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that they didn't notice it then, and the fix has only just now come through QA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, in three days, its pretty unlikely they'd identify, isolate, and address an issue of this nature.

Debugging is *not* a straightforward process. The devs probably just wanted to get I9 on live, since so many people wanted it, and it wasn't seriously broken.

[Rooftop_Raider]

We've been talking about the 100% resistance of EoE's for quite some time on Test. I _highly_ doubt Cryptic was unaware of it. :)

[UberGuy]

I actually had no idea they did that until last night's raid. I popped one to try and run (fly) in and fire a Howling Twilight on a small sea of orange names.

Sadly, I then got a lesson in just how much knockback those things do. I was literally uncontrollably knocked up the hill towards the old "gathering rock" until one of the blasts knocked me behind cover. I saw that I was going to pass people and expose them to AoEs, but could do nothing to stop it.

On the upside, the raiders got a good laugh out of seeing me bounce up the hill that way. :)

[Haetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.


[/ QUOTE ]

So of course, it's fine to trivialize 1/2 of the melee ATs powersets out there instead and add an inspiration to do something they're supposed to already be capable of.

I still say if they had decided to make Hamidon "difficult" by putting a zone debuff that greyed out all buff/debuff powers, and the debuff could only be countered by an inspiration you'd have to farm, the majority of the playerbase that haunt these forums would cry foul loud enough until it got fixed.

[Firebomb]

[ QUOTE ]
We've been talking about the 100% resistance of EoE's for quite some time on Test. I _highly_ doubt Cryptic was unaware of it. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mm. But why should people let that get in the way of their dismissive posts?

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.


[/ QUOTE ]

So of course, it's fine to trivialize 1/2 of the melee ATs powersets out there instead and add an inspiration to do something they're supposed to already be capable of.

I still say if they had decided to make Hamidon "difficult" by putting a zone debuff that greyed out all buff/debuff powers, and the debuff could only be countered by an inspiration you'd have to farm, the majority of the playerbase that haunt these forums would cry foul loud enough until it got fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, so you think he doesn't trivialize buff/debuff powers? You think he doesn't trivialize buffs that give defense? Buffs that give DR? Buffs that heal or add +regen? Pets?

He currently leaves useful buffs for toHit, recharge and damage. He currently has specific vulnererability to melee damage (yellows) ranged damage (blues) and holds (greens). He calls for as high a burst damage as possible, making Scrappers of all sorts and Tankers with their top-end melee attacks (which are high burst damage by design) valuable. Anyone with a hold is good for taking on greens. Anyone with ranged damage is good for blues. And anyone who can give good mez protection is invaluable. Buff up just one guy to keep each yellow busy and they can keep the heat off the other groups long enough for an entire bloom to be cleared.

Wake up and stop acting like you're being victimized.

[The_Centurion]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that this game is too general. You can have a fire/ice blaster - what would their strength/weakness be?

The thing is, someoen like iceman is actually an uce blaster/controller/tanker all rolled into one. Even with the APPs, we can't approach that level of performance (due to lower modifiers, longer recharges, etc).

One the same note, you have characters like Jubilee that have like just the tier 1 energy blast power AND NOTHING ELSE.

A good middle ground would be to give blasters, for instance, some passive resists based upon their primary and/or secondary, and call it a day. You're an ice/fire blaster, here's an 8% resist to ice and a 5% reisst to fire. Not game breaking, but a little touch for thematic reasons. You're an earth/rad controller here's 8% s/l resist and 5% energy resist. A bs/regen scrapper - here's 8% s/l resist & 5% toxic resist.

Just little thematic touches. These reisst would NOT be enhanceable, but would provide just a little something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the game is to basic to tailor a complete set of resist to a given character but using the Primary of a given set should work fine and the buff can be balanced out with a weakness against that sets antithesis....say maybe 10% each way that is unenhancable.

I think it would give more depth and remove some of the cookie cutter build aspect to PvP at least and maybe to the game as a whole.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
Willy, did you even look at the patch notes (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2092861)?

Basically, the only thing to get "nerfed" was something that was not working right
[ QUOTE ]
Player AT’s damage resistance was not 'capped' vs. the Hamidon’s special damage type. As a result, players could completely eliminate incoming damage from Hamidon via Essence of the Earth inspirations, which is not the intended behavior. Resistance to this damage type now has the standard maximum values as determined by archetype.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Which is not the intended behavior" means, not a nerf, but a bug fix.

Actually, these patch notes seem to have a lot of buffs to the game.

Stop crying Doooooooooommmmm!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was much more concerned with them changing set tohit buffs to accuracy buffs, essentially making those buffs useless.

All the +accuracy in the world isn't gonna help you against foes with defense and/or tohit debuffs. This was the sole opportunity for toons without access to a persistent tohit buff to actually be able to reasonably fight these foes. Tanks and Scrappers can get Focused Accuracy at level 41, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors can get Tactics if they can squeeze it into their builds, and the rest get NOTHING.

And what good are all the various vet temp and craftable temp powers if they're adjusted chance to hit is around 50% for most battles? Bonus accuracy won't help them either, leaving them as they are now -- useless tray clutter.

And let's chalk this up to yet another PvE change made solely to ceases the endless whining of the PvP crowd. Cause I can't imagine anyone other than a PvP SR scrapper/stalker having a problem with adding tohit buffs to the game. So they get to have their PvP and the rest of us get to keep our useless temp powers and frustrating missions where we can't hit a damned thing.

Bravo!

And I wonder, with the 2 months that I9 sat on test, at no point did anyone realize that EoEs were granting full protection? Not once? Even when the raids were being monitored by in-game devs did they not notice? Sorry, but it smells a lot like Christmas all over again.

[Captain Fabulous]

I guess Scirocco "evolved" as well.

Like I said, open the door for one foe to hit that which is labeled "indestructible", then it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to every common boss.

The truly sad part is this really nerfs the hell outta the Illusion set. With no AOE immobilize or sleep they are incapable of reliably establishing containment, and have only *2*, yes TWO, attack powers in the whole set that do damage. With no reliable AOE control abilities (save the "10 seconds every 3 minutes" AOE hold), PA is your only means of protecting yourself from aggro. And hell, you can't even have them out all the time, and the damage they do is minimal as most of it heals back.

This pretty much makes Illusion a complete waste of a team spot on the STF, and any future endeavors where foes have "evolved" to be able to hit that which is "indestructible". And probably the saddest part of all is that while these upgraded foes can attack and destroy them, no one on the team, including their creator, can buff or heal them.

Wow... simply WOW...

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Prepare to get lynched. ((more :P)) The current forum fanbase is of the opinion that it's perfectly fine for the end game to completely negate half you character, and you'll also have people suggest you use your armors in "new and different ways" such as "Death Shroud for Damage Mitigation and Stacking Cloak of Fear's debuff".

[/ QUOTE ]

Baloney. Moreover, the current Hamidon actually allows slightly more powers to be effective. It still cuts out defense and now erdoes the benefit of healing, but it now makes more mez protections useful.

[ QUOTE ]
The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.

That's not an easy nut to crack.

If Hami honored defense and DR, do you realize how totally we could negate his threat with 50 people?

I'm not saying the current design is anywhere near the best it could be. But last night I attended a raid that succeeded in under three hours. It was the Justice server's first I9 raid ever, most people there didn't even know how Hami had changed, and we succeeded on our first try. This wasn't some uber-SG-based raid. It was an open raid accessible to anyone who attended (up to the zone cap, of course).

[ QUOTE ]
And ultimately turned it into yet another elitism inaccessible to average and casual players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bzzt. Wrong. All it takes is leaders willing to organize the casual players, and enough casual players to show up. The new raid is even more friendly in the sense that it makes more use of all ATs. There's really an important use for melee types now, for example.

If the strategy can be tuned enough, the time on the raids will come down significantly. Since he can be spawned at will by killing GMs, the old once-a-day (or so) limit is now defunct, and more people can actually potentially raid.

The biggest constraint is on finding enough people willing to lead and not just be lemmings. And I say that as someone who's got a strong lemming streak when it comes to raids. Get enough leaders and you can get more raids. More raids = more people getting rewards. More people getting rewards means more access for more-average players.

Stop fixating on how the changes impacted Phase Shift, and look at the big picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't even talking about phase shift. I don't even think anyone at the raid I attended had it. Gratz for your group completing it, but what I saw on Freedom was a bloody mess.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame that their special fan-only closed beta, and then an open beta with some raids watched BY a developer didn't seem to notice that these inspirations weren't working 'as intended'.

So much for the improved testing environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that they didn't notice it then, and the fix has only just now come through QA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, in three days, its pretty unlikely they'd identify, isolate, and address an issue of this nature.

Debugging is *not* a straightforward process. The devs probably just wanted to get I9 on live, since so many people wanted it, and it wasn't seriously broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that were the case it should have been noted in the Known Issues section. Yes yes, I know, they're only human, blah blah blah, notes get missed, blah blah blah, the janitor accidentally threw out the latest additions, blah blah blah, someones dog ate the new list, blah blah blah...

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.


[/ QUOTE ]

So of course, it's fine to trivialize 1/2 of the melee ATs powersets out there instead and add an inspiration to do something they're supposed to already be capable of.

I still say if they had decided to make Hamidon "difficult" by putting a zone debuff that greyed out all buff/debuff powers, and the debuff could only be countered by an inspiration you'd have to farm, the majority of the playerbase that haunt these forums would cry foul loud enough until it got fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, so you think he doesn't trivialize buff/debuff powers? You think he doesn't trivialize buffs that give defense? Buffs that give DR? Buffs that heal or add +regen? Pets?

He currently leaves useful buffs for toHit, recharge and damage. He currently has specific vulnererability to melee damage (yellows) ranged damage (blues) and holds (greens). He calls for as high a burst damage as possible, making Scrappers of all sorts and Tankers with their top-end melee attacks (which are high burst damage by design) valuable. Anyone with a hold is good for taking on greens. Anyone with ranged damage is good for blues. And anyone who can give good mez protection is invaluable. Buff up just one guy to keep each yellow busy and they can keep the heat off the other groups long enough for an entire bloom to be cleared.

Wake up and stop acting like you're being victimized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since you put it that way, we really are being victimized. Why bother leveling up your toon, testing multiple builds, gathering HOs and now IOs, spend weeks or months leveling a character from 1 to 50 and learning everything there is to know about your powers, how they work, which combos works best, etc. etc. etc., only to find it's all USELESS when fighting the new big bad end game boss.

Bypassing everyone's resistances and defenses is nothing more than a cheap trick -- not completely unexpected as the devs have been relying on cheap tricks since I2 and the creation of the post level 40 game.

And hell, I've been on enough teams to know that even with full resistances and defense current toons can very easily be overwhelmed by their enemies, simply by taking more damage than they can mitigate.

It didn't HAVE to be this way. The game already suffers from a severe lack of "feeling super", fighting a foe that completely negates all your powers just adds insult to injury.

I just keep thinking back thru 30 some odd years of comic book stories when heroes were gathered in teamups to defeat a dire enemy. Would Superman suddenly lose his invulnerability? Would the Hulk? Would Wolverine's unbreakable adamantium claws and skeleton get shattered? His ability to regenerate his wounds negated? Would Wonder Woman's unbreakable bracelets break and unbreakable lasso snap? Would the magiks of Dr. Fate, the Phantom Stranger, The Spectre, Zatanna, and Deadman have absolutely no effect? Would their protective spells be of absolutely no use?

It's simply ridiculous that with such a rich history of large scale battles in comic book lore the devs chose to throw it all out the window and just make this creature -- a human infused with dark magiks -- into a virtually indestructible, unstoppable, laws-of-physics, time, and space-breaking omnipotent god.

EVERYTHING has a weakness. Galactus has a weakness. The Oans have a weakness. Doomsday has a weakness. Hami has none. There is no real challenge here. And the only strategy involves figuring out how many of each AT you need, what powers they must have, and finding a way to coordinate 50 people to work in tandem. After that, it's pretty much the same as every other foe in CoX -- kill anything that moves as quickly as possible.

After all the kinks of the "strategy" are worked out, doing Hami will simply be by rote, just as it always has before.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
Modified Accuracy Set Bonuses -- They now modify the Accuracy of all of a player’s powers, instead of modifying the player’s base To Hit value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that doesn't sound like a nerf, that sounds a lot more like DOING WHAT ITS SUPPOSED TO DO.

"accuracy" bonus should affect "accuracy" not anything else, sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks and Scrappers can get Focused Accuracy at level 41, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors can get Tactics if they can squeeze it into their builds, and the rest get NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can pick up tactics, 3 slotted with to-hit buffs, it does help pretty much any AT, though certainly defenders get the biggest buff for it.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess Scirocco "evolved" as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

As somebody else already said, it is probably a bug, since it doesnt happen consitently. /bug is your friend.

Illusion has Specral Terror, one of the best AoE controls in the game. it can fear a boss, allowing you to apply that hold as you please.

it also has decieve, which does not do direct damage, but it certainly does damage.

[ QUOTE ]
If that were the case it should have been noted in the Known Issues section. Yes yes, I know, they're only human, blah blah blah, notes get missed, blah blah blah, the janitor accidentally threw out the latest additions, blah blah blah, someones dog ate the new list, blah blah blah...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing I say here is going to change your mind, since you seem to think that it is impossible for a human to make a mistake.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Modified Accuracy Set Bonuses -- They now modify the Accuracy of all of a player’s powers, instead of modifying the player’s base To Hit value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that doesn't sound like a nerf, that sounds a lot more like DOING WHAT ITS SUPPOSED TO DO.

"accuracy" bonus should affect "accuracy" not anything else, sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but turning a tohit buff, regardless of what it's called, into an accuracy buff is a nerf, plain and simple. There are many places in the game where tohit buffs are referred to as accuracy buffs. This is no way changes what they truly are and how they work. And if they were actually supposed to be accuracy buffs, not tohit buffs, why were the values of the tohit buffs cut in half while on test? I guess that wasn't a nerf either, huh?

Tohit buff = useful. Accuracy buffs = useless. Turning a power from useful to useless is a nerf, no matter how you decide to word it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tanks and Scrappers can get Focused Accuracy at level 41, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors can get Tactics if they can squeeze it into their builds, and the rest get NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can pick up tactics, 3 slotted with to-hit buffs, it does help pretty much any AT, though certainly defenders get the biggest buff for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, any AT can take tactics, but the values are so small for anyone but Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors, that even 3 slotted the buff is negligible, and not worth the underpowered prerequisite (either Maneuvers or Assault), heavy end cost, and slots.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess Scirocco "evolved" as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

As somebody else already said, it is probably a bug, since it doesnt happen consitently. /bug is your friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, I guess only time will tell. But don't be surprised if it's not.

[ QUOTE ]
Illusion has Specral Terror, one of the best AoE controls in the game. it can fear a boss, allowing you to apply that hold as you please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, ST is a great power. But it doesn't establish containment, is immovable (and can no longer be TPd since that nerf), and won't stop them from attacking if attacked first. And unlike dark fears, there is no inherent tohit debuff either. Works well on a large team with aggro control, but is not much more than a quick breather on a small team or solo.

[ QUOTE ]
it also has decieve, which does not do direct damage, but it certainly does damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

For which you get little to no XP for, and also won't establish containment. Is it effective, of course. Does it make up for a lack of a reliable AOE containment power and nerfed PA? Nope.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If that were the case it should have been noted in the Known Issues section. Yes yes, I know, they're only human, blah blah blah, notes get missed, blah blah blah, the janitor accidentally threw out the latest additions, blah blah blah, someones dog ate the new list, blah blah blah...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing I say here is going to change your mind, since you seem to think that it is impossible for a human to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about you, but if part of my job was to ensure that patch notes and known issue lists were kept accurate and up to date, and I used the "I'm only human" excuse every time some very important item was "accidentally" left out, I would have been fired long ago. The "human" excuse is just old and tired at this point.

[Steel_Inferno]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess Scirocco "evolved" as well.

Like I said, open the door for one foe to hit that which is labeled "indestructible", then it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to every common boss.

The truly sad part is this really nerfs the hell outta the Illusion set. With no AOE immobilize or sleep they are incapable of reliably establishing containment, and have only *2*, yes TWO, attack powers in the whole set that do damage. With no reliable AOE control abilities (save the "10 seconds every 3 minutes" AOE hold), PA is your only means of protecting yourself from aggro. And hell, you can't even have them out all the time, and the damage they do is minimal as most of it heals back.

This pretty much makes Illusion a complete waste of a team spot on the STF, and any future endeavors where foes have "evolved" to be able to hit that which is "indestructible". And probably the saddest part of all is that while these upgraded foes can attack and destroy them, no one on the team, including their creator, can buff or heal them.

Wow... simply WOW...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow... simply WOW... Is right. Are you serious about that BS?

Illusion is widely recognized as the strongest controller primary against hard targets, because of its emphasis on distraction instead of hard mezzes. A complete waste of a slot on a STF? The best possible team for the STF is 8 Ill/Rads. Stop treating an obvious bug that only occurred once like the end of the world. (Assuming of course, Scirocco actually did that damage. PA does, and always did, take falling damage. I'm assuming that you didn't go up to the flight cap and drop them, right?)

As for Hami, what exactly can any other controller do to him and his Mitos that Ill/* can't? Well? If anything, Ill/* still has an advantage because it has more pets to act as a distraction than any other controller.

[Thorizdin_LotD]

You know, I have to laugh at this (and the rest) of your posts. _If_ the devs did invent an intelligent and challenging enemy that didn't "cheat" or present a challenge by having powers and abilities that far exceeded what a PC could do then people, perhaps you and perhaps not, would be posting very similar complaints.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
For which you get little to no XP for, and also won't establish containment. Is it effective, of course. Does it make up for a lack of a reliable AOE containment power and nerfed PA? Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Predictable, I knew you'd pull that card. Check this out (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4447670).

If you don't want to read the entire guide (which is an excellent read for anyone with either a mind or illusion controller) I'll give you the important parts

[ QUOTE ]
Under normal circumstances, everybody who damages a mob "takes" a share of that mob's experience yeild (X), proportional to the damage they do (D). That means if you and an unteamed stranger each do half the damage to a mob, and it's defeated, you each get half the experience value. Earned experience (Xp) is equal to the mobs's experience value times the fraction of damage you do to it.

Xp = DX

...

HOW EXPERIENCE OVER TIME WORKS GENERALLY

Where:
F = ("Fight") time each spawn takes to fully defeat
S = ("Search") time it takes after each fight to find the next fight
T = ("Time") fight plus search time = F+S

Experience per time (Xppt) is equal to experience value of the spawn (X) dividied by total time (T). Total time is a function of how long it normally takes to defeat a spawn (F) plus time between fights (S):

Xppt = X/T = X/(F+S)

[/ QUOTE ]

basic stuff, now lets throw confuse into the equation

[ QUOTE ]

HOW CONFUSION EXPERIENCE WORKS

Where:
Cmd = fraction of spawn's damage done by confused mobs (where 1=100%) = 1-D

The experience value of mobs damaged by other confused mobs (Cx) is equal to the mob's base experience value times the fraction of the mob's damage once you EXCLUDE three quarters of the damage confused mobs did (Cmd) from the mob's base damage.

Cx = DX / (D + (Cmd/4)) = 4DX / (3D + 1)


HOW CONFUSION FIGHT DURATION WORKS

Fight durations depend directly on how much damage has to be dealt to finish the enemy. When they've been damaged by other, confused mobs, the amount of time fights last (Cf) is the normal fight time (F) times the fraction of the damage you yourself have to do (D).

Cf = time a spawn takes to defeat, if it's been damaged by confused mobs = FD.

***Note: F here is the duration of a NORMAL fight, that is, without confusion in play.

...

Time it takes after each fight to find the next fight is equal to three times the fraction of the spawn's damage done by you, times the time each spawn takes to fully defeat (normally).

If you start the next fight faster than that, your XPS is better with confuse than without. If you find them slower, experience over time gets worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

now the important part

[ QUOTE ]

In my experience, groups with any real interest in decent XP over time will EASILY be doing better than the S=3DF rule above. If the group can't manage S=3DF on the average, it's probably because they're doing something IN PREFERENCE to decent XP/time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took out a lot of stuff there, I suggest you check it out to see the math and everything else.

-----

As for the to-hit buff being not worth it on anything but controllers/defenders/corruptors

look at the numbers

base numbers at lvl 50
blaster, tanker, scrapper, brute, stalker 7%
khledians 9%
controllers, corruptors 10%
defender 12.5%
Dominators, masterminds 7.5%

not a huge spread there. yeah, 5% can make a difference, but its hardly neglegible.

Also, almost every blaster gets Aim, if you have devices secondary, you also get Targetting drone, 2 more self tohit buffs

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, since you put it that way, we really are being victimized. Why bother leveling up your toon, testing multiple builds, gathering HOs and now IOs, spend weeks or months leveling a character from 1 to 50 and learning everything there is to know about your powers, how they work, which combos works best, etc. etc. etc., only to find it's all USELESS when fighting the new big bad end game boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name me a single MMO game where an end/raid boss on the scale of Hamidon (and by scale I mean requires a large mass of players) does not overwhelm the defenses of any single character.

The devs wanted Hamidon to be something that required something other than "stack all the bubbles and fortitudes available and go to down". Is this the only way they could have done it? No. But given what they've decided Hamidon itself should be - a large, unmoving foe, this is one of the most time-effective means they could use.

Hamidon in any form similar to what he is now would be completely trivialized by a zone full of players who's powers actually worked on him.

Here's a revalation for you: if the armored ATs could use thier defenses to stand up to Hamidon the way you seem to want them to, in order to be as challenging as he is to them right now, assuming the same basic behavior, he would have to be able to absolutely annhiliate any non-armored (or equivalent) AT, as he would have to do between 4x and 10x his current damage. That sounds grand, doesn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
And hell, I've been on enough teams to know that even with full resistances and defense current toons can very easily be overwhelmed by their enemies, simply by taking more damage than they can mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been on teams of 50 people? Neat!

[ QUOTE ]
I just keep thinking back thru 30 some odd years of comic book stories when heroes were gathered in teamups to defeat a dire enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a comic book. I am really done with people going here. This is a game inspired by comic themes. Comic books are stories the flow of which, every concept and event in, serve the storytelling aims of the author. Books need no balance. The most indestructable character in the universe can be threatened by the loss of loved ones, or by plots that super strength cannot defeat. These things cannot be reliably represented in the modern MMO. CoH is a D20-style combat simulation that looks like comics. It cannot be true to fiction because there is no author. We are the characters, and we have to be limited in the scope of the game's context.

[ QUOTE ]
It's simply ridiculous that with such a rich history of large scale battles in comic book lore the devs chose to throw it all out the window and just make this creature -- a human infused with dark magiks -- into a virtually indestructible, unstoppable, laws-of-physics, time, and space-breaking omnipotent god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that never happens in the comics.

[ QUOTE ]
EVERYTHING has a weakness. Galactus has a weakness. The Oans have a weakness. Doomsday has a weakness. Hami has none.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice selective memory, since I actually enumerated Hamidon's weaknesses earlier.

Did I mention that the new Hamidon is actually easier to kill in tems of damage dealt? Imagine that. He's harder because he's actually more dangerous than before. And the battles with him are short and frentic instead of long and tedious like they were in I8 and before.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no real challenge here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That always happens when you run away and cry that it's too hard.

[ QUOTE ]
And the only strategy involves figuring out how many of each AT you need, what powers they must have

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you mean like the rest of the bloody game?

[ QUOTE ]
After that, it's pretty much the same as every other foe in CoX -- kill anything that moves as quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you do mean that! So... do you not actually like the rest of the game?

[ QUOTE ]
After all the kinks of the "strategy" are worked out, doing Hami will simply be by rote, just as it always has before.

[/ QUOTE ]

And someone claimed this would not be so.... where?

The difference is that it's a much, much more active "rote". It requires everyone present to move in tandem, not just put someone on follow and click their best ranged power. It can't fail because someone pulls a giant monster onto people tediously casting holds on Hamidon, or because they lag. The whole thing is much more active, and is clearly going to be much less boring than before, because the combat phases are much shorter. Hell, even planning to get out of dodge when new blooms appear is more interesting.

You refuse to see that the encounter has actually been improved, even if one agrees it has bogus mechanics of threat. That hasn't changed. But victory comes through active participation of a smaller core of people (and there was always a smaller core of people at pre-I9 raids who were actually paying attention) acting in brief, coordinated bursts. For the people who are there to actually participate and pay attention, it's a lot more enjoyable. For the people who were bored and afk, they can either step up or go run the STF. You see, the real beauty of it is that they now have that choice.

[Captain Fabulous]

Ok, I'll try it. I'll solo an entire mission just by confusing my foes. We'll see how quickly and how much XP I get. Moron.

[ QUOTE ]

-----

As for the to-hit buff being not worth it on anything but controllers/defenders/corruptors

look at the numbers

base numbers at lvl 50
blaster, tanker, scrapper, brute, stalker 7%
khledians 9%
controllers, corruptors 10%
defender 12.5%
Dominators, masterminds 7.5%

not a huge spread there. yeah, 5% can make a difference, but its hardly neglegible.

Also, almost every blaster gets Aim, if you have devices secondary, you also get Targetting drone, 2 more self tohit buffs

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything less than 15% of a tohit buff is by and large meaningless. Only Corruptors, Defenders, and Controllers can get to that level or higher.

Since you're so fond of math, why don't you sit down and figure out exactly what a 7% tohit buff buys you versus what a 7% accuracy buff buys you. In either case, squat.

And yeah, that 10 second Aim is gonna get you really far. "ok, hold on everyone, let me wait for Aim to recharge before we fight those CoT." <10 seconds pass> "sorry guys, I gotta wait for aim to recharge again..."

Oh yes, and you're right Targeting Drone is a fairly decent tohit buff. If you're a */devices blaster. What about the other 20+ combinations of blasters, what do they get. Oh, um, NOTHING.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, since you put it that way, we really are being victimized. Why bother leveling up your toon, testing multiple builds, gathering HOs and now IOs, spend weeks or months leveling a character from 1 to 50 and learning everything there is to know about your powers, how they work, which combos works best, etc. etc. etc., only to find it's all USELESS when fighting the new big bad end game boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name me a single MMO game where an end/raid boss on the scale of Hamidon (and by scale I mean requires a large mass of players) does not overwhelm the defenses of any single character.

The devs wanted Hamidon to be something that required something other than "stack all the bubbles and fortitudes available and go to down". Is this the only way they could have done it? No. But given what they've decided Hamidon itself should be - a large, unmoving foe, this is one of the most time-effective means they could use.

Hamidon in any form similar to what he is now would be completely trivialized by a zone full of players who's powers actually worked on him.

Here's a revalation for you: if the armored ATs could use thier defenses to stand up to Hamidon the way you seem to want them to, in order to be as challenging as he is to them right now, assuming the same basic behavior, he would have to be able to absolutely annhiliate any non-armored (or equivalent) AT, as he would have to do between 4x and 10x his current damage. That sounds grand, doesn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
And hell, I've been on enough teams to know that even with full resistances and defense current toons can very easily be overwhelmed by their enemies, simply by taking more damage than they can mitigate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been on teams of 50 people? Neat!

[ QUOTE ]
I just keep thinking back thru 30 some odd years of comic book stories when heroes were gathered in teamups to defeat a dire enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a comic book. I am really done with people going here. This is a game inspired by comic themes. Comic books are stories the flow of which, every concept and event in, serve the storytelling aims of the author. Books need no balance. The most indestructable character in the universe can be threatened by the loss of loved ones, or by plots that super strength cannot defeat. These things cannot be reliably represented in the modern MMO. CoH is a D20-style combat simulation that looks like comics. It cannot be true to fiction because there is no author. We are the characters, and we have to be limited in the scope of the game's context.

[ QUOTE ]
It's simply ridiculous that with such a rich history of large scale battles in comic book lore the devs chose to throw it all out the window and just make this creature -- a human infused with dark magiks -- into a virtually indestructible, unstoppable, laws-of-physics, time, and space-breaking omnipotent god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that never happens in the comics.

[ QUOTE ]
EVERYTHING has a weakness. Galactus has a weakness. The Oans have a weakness. Doomsday has a weakness. Hami has none.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice selective memory, since I actually enumerated Hamidon's weaknesses earlier.

Did I mention that the new Hamidon is actually easier to kill in tems of damage dealt? Imagine that. He's harder because he's actually more dangerous than before. And the battles with him are short and frentic instead of long and tedious like they were in I8 and before.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no real challenge here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That always happens when you run away and cry that it's too hard.

[ QUOTE ]
And the only strategy involves figuring out how many of each AT you need, what powers they must have

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you mean like the rest of the bloody game?

[ QUOTE ]
After that, it's pretty much the same as every other foe in CoX -- kill anything that moves as quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you do mean that! So... do you not actually like the rest of the game?

[ QUOTE ]
After all the kinks of the "strategy" are worked out, doing Hami will simply be by rote, just as it always has before.

[/ QUOTE ]

And someone claimed this would not be so.... where?

The difference is that it's a much, much more active "rote". It requires everyone present to move in tandem, not just put someone on follow and click their best ranged power. It can't fail because someone pulls a giant monster onto people tediously casting holds on Hamidon, or because they lag. The whole thing is much more active, and is clearly going to be much less boring than before, because the combat phases are much shorter. Hell, even planning to get out of dodge when new blooms appear is more interesting.

You refuse to see that the encounter has actually been improved, even if one agrees it has bogus mechanics of threat. That hasn't changed. But victory comes through active participation of a smaller core of people (and there was always a smaller core of people at pre-I9 raids who were actually paying attention) acting in brief, coordinated bursts. For the people who are there to actually participate and pay attention, it's a lot more enjoyable. For the people who were bored and afk, they can either step up or go run the STF. You see, the real beauty of it is that they now have that choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm soooo [censored] tired of arguing with you people. Ok fine. You're all 100% right. The new Hami encounter is the best thing since sliced bread.

All the nerfs that have come and will come are not really nerfs, they're just "evolutions".

The game is better now than it's every been. Really.

Are you all happy now? I guess I'm the deranged one that actually expects a Super Hero RPG to play like, I dunno, Super Heroes. Obvioulsy, I'm mistaken. It's a game loosely based on super heroes, formulated on a D327094370 system of illogical and nonsensical rules where anything and everything can happen at anytime just cause. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense.

Have fun playing your super-duper fun game. And oh yea, you're always right, and I'm always wrong.

La

Dee

Daa

[Work_Ethic]

<QR>

::hissing voice over::
"We have broken him my lord!!!!"

::Mr. Burns voice over::
"Excellent. Release the hounds for the last remaining few."

:D

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll try it. I'll solo an entire mission just by confusing my foes. We'll see how quickly and how much XP I get. Moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Resorting to insults will get you nowhere. Decieve can, and usually does, result in a net gain in your XP over time.

7% accuracy, or to-hit for that matter, can make a difference, when fighting things that are at least +3, those 2 SOs bringing your accuracy to 150%? make it 157%, you'll hit more.

Against things +2 or lower, any buff to your accuracy beyond that 2 SO mark or to your to-hit won't matter much, unless you've got something hitting you with to-hit debuffs, or accuracy debuffs.

Mind you, this does not hold true in PvP, but since 80% of the game is PvE, and PvP will never be balanced, I'm not too worried about it.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yes, and you're right Targeting Drone is a fairly decent tohit buff. If you're a */devices blaster. What about the other 20+ combinations of blasters, what do they get. Oh, um, NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, there are 28 combinations of blasters that do not get targetting drones.

but look at it the other way, 20% of the combinations DO get targetting drone. I'll take it you're a "glass is half empty" kind of person.

Aim may be up for 10 seconds, however, with 3 recharge SOs its got a 46.2 second recharge, meaning its up almost 25% of the time without outside boosts. add in hasten, Accellerate Metabolism, Speed Boost, Adrenaline Boost, or any other power that increases your recharge rate, and that number will be even better.

with a 46 second recharge, Aim will be up every other fight, if your team is moving slower than optimal, it could be up every fight. Remember, thats without outside boosts.

[Rooftop_Raider]

[ QUOTE ]
And I wonder, with the 2 months that I9 sat on test, at no point did anyone realize that EoEs were granting full protection? Not once? Even when the raids were being monitored by in-game devs did they not notice? Sorry, but it smells a lot like Christmas all over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just making sure we're on the same page here. We had discovered this with the first public raid tests heroside in the i9 private testing and this information was reiterated several times on the forums, and in threads developers also posted in. AFAIK only people who neither frequented the forums or never tried EoE in a Hamidon raid, that also conveniently missed any number of opportunties to ask what an EoE inspiration does, could have possibly not known about EoE granting 100% resistance to all special damage dealt by Hamidon. You don't even get entries in your damage log because zero damage is done hehe. :)

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Bypassing everyone's resistances and defenses is nothing more than a cheap trick -- not completely unexpected as the devs have been relying on cheap tricks since I2 and the creation of the post level 40 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me see if I get this straight, because occasionally I get confused. You believe this, and you *also* believe this:

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I was much more concerned with them changing set tohit buffs to accuracy buffs, essentially making those buffs useless.

All the +accuracy in the world isn't gonna help you against foes with defense and/or tohit debuffs. This was the sole opportunity for toons without access to a persistent tohit buff to actually be able to reasonably fight these foes. Tanks and Scrappers can get Focused Accuracy at level 41, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors can get Tactics if they can squeeze it into their builds, and the rest get NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

... at the same time? How do they fit in the same head?

Tohit buffs are, in essence, a cheap trick to bypass defenses. There are lots of mechanically complex reasons for desiring the *existence* of a cheap trick to bypass defense, which I've written more words on than you've written actual words (and I'm not talking about here, specifically, either). But seriously, separate from the blatant contradiction, its worth noting that this is one in a long list of examples of people's perceptions having exactly no correlation to reality whatsoever. For example:

[ QUOTE ]
Anything less than 15% of a tohit buff is by and large meaningless. Only Corruptors, Defenders, and Controllers can get to that level or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if you are one of those people that have the basic opinion that there is hitting all the time, and everything else, then you might think this. However, its worth noting that the current version of the invention system allows for much higher tohit buffs than that, and combined with just plain old tactics anyone could still get about as much tohit buffs as an SR scrapper has defenses, which is ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
And if they were actually supposed to be accuracy buffs, not tohit buffs, why were the values of the tohit buffs cut in half while on test?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, ooh, me, me!

They were originally tohit buffs because it wasn't thought that there was a way to make them accuracy buffs. They wanted to give players a way to hit more often and that was the only way to do it at the time. However, the side effect of allowing players to hit more often in this case was that they would hit defensive sets way, way, way too often.

When it became clear just how much tohit buffs there were, and how they could be stacked, in sample calculations (like, say, [u]mine[u]) they decided to knock them down so that they wouldn't hit defensive sets as hard.

The problem was that there really isn't a value for tohit buffs that is strong enough under all conditions in PvE, without being disasterous for defense sets in PvP. There is no sweet spot, but that doesn't stop the devs from trying to find one anyway. But they *knew* there was a problem, they just were not sure how to address it. They definitely wanted increased accuracy in PvE, but didn't want to further unbalance PvP. That just wasn't possible, because there isn't a Player Accuracy attribute to modify: the notion of a "player accuracy buff" doesn't exist in the current game.

The realization was, though, that while there is no way to buff a player's accuracy, there *was* a way to buff all the accuracy attributes of every single power possessed by a player. *That* revelation allowed the devs to implement the +Acc in the invention system as originally desired: something that was a nice boost in PvE, without being a problem in PvP.

The change is happening now, after go-live, because they didn't want this particular patch, which has a whole lot of powers changes, to hold up the I9 release.


They are +accuracy because they were always intended to be +accuracy. They were only +tohit because they thought they had no choice. In fact, its actually a valid point of debate to ask whether *any* "persistent" tohit buffs were actually meant to be tohit buffs when cast in this light. "Focused Accuracy" is not called "Focused ToHit:" it claims to boost accuracy, when it actually boosts player base tohit. Tactics is also specifically said to buff ally Accuracy. Something worth thinking about.

Oh, and:

[ QUOTE ]
Tohit buff = useful. Accuracy buffs = useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deslot all your accuracy and come back and say this again.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
<QR>

::hissing voice over::
"We have broken him my lord!!!!"

::Mr. Burns voice over::
"Excellent. Release the hounds for the last remaining few."

:D

[/ QUOTE ]

Please... hardly. I just won't get into a pissing match with someone who obviously cannot debate the points at hand and must resort to twisting my words around and saying stupid things like "well yeah, it's a Super Hero RPG but that doesn't mean it has to be actually like Super Heroes, now does it?"

Sorry, when the discussion gets to that point it's obvious it has degenerated to 5th grade debate team status, and I just won't go there.

So yes, y'all have fun with your lovely new Hami, and your lovely new STF, and you're wonderfully useless IOs and their equally useless set bonuses for which the first round of nerfs is already sitting on the test server.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll try it. I'll solo an entire mission just by confusing my foes. We'll see how quickly and how much XP I get. Moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Resorting to insults will get you nowhere. Decieve can, and usually does, result in a net gain in your XP over time.

7% accuracy, or to-hit for that matter, can make a difference, when fighting things that are at least +3, those 2 SOs bringing your accuracy to 150%? make it 157%, you'll hit more.

Against things +2 or lower, any buff to your accuracy beyond that 2 SO mark or to your to-hit won't matter much, unless you've got something hitting you with to-hit debuffs, or accuracy debuffs.

Mind you, this does not hold true in PvP, but since 80% of the game is PvE, and PvP will never be balanced, I'm not too worried about it.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yes, and you're right Targeting Drone is a fairly decent tohit buff. If you're a */devices blaster. What about the other 20+ combinations of blasters, what do they get. Oh, um, NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, there are 28 combinations of blasters that do not get targetting drones.

but look at it the other way, 20% of the combinations DO get targetting drone. I'll take it you're a "glass is half empty" kind of person.

Aim may be up for 10 seconds, however, with 3 recharge SOs its got a 46.2 second recharge, meaning its up almost 25% of the time without outside boosts. add in hasten, Accellerate Metabolism, Speed Boost, Adrenaline Boost, or any other power that increases your recharge rate, and that number will be even better.

with a 46 second recharge, Aim will be up every other fight, if your team is moving slower than optimal, it could be up every fight. Remember, thats without outside boosts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and I'm done arguing with you. I've said all I wanted to say an I'm not going to get into a pissing match.

You're 100% right about everything, and I'm 100% wrong (especially when you twist my words around).

And even tho your you're 100% right about everything, you obviously have no clue how to calculate accuracy and tohit buffs, but you're always right anyway. And if you see 20% as your glass being half-full, then your math is a lot worse than I first expected. But again, since you're always right 20% MUST equal half-full.

And sure, why not, every time I play my blaster I'll just drag along a rad, kin, and empath so that I can have Aim up "almost every battle". Yes, I certainly see how that is a legitimate alternative to a persistent, always on tohit buff. What the hell was I thinking to question your omnipotence?

Wait, I got it! I'll just get an illusion troller instead of all that and just sit back and let them deceive the entire map. Then I don't have to even worry about being able to hit things! Yes yes, that's exactly what I'll do. Problem solved!

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.

[/ QUOTE ]But just Hamidon & Mitos, right?

Can you explain this? (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/alexmarsz/Scirocco_vs_PA.jpg) Did Hami sneak up behind us while we were fighting Scirocco?

[/ QUOTE ]

Had I not seen the picture, I wouldn't have understood. That's weird and probably a bug. However, I have noticed that even when I dismiss my pets who have attacked something the chat bar will register than the mob they were fighting killed them. Likewise, Gangwar sometimes registers that a mob has killed them when their timer runs out.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I'm done arguing with you. I've said all I wanted to say an I'm not going to get into a pissing match.

You're 100% right about everything, and I'm 100% wrong (especially when you twist my words around).

And even tho your you're 100% right about everything, you obviously have no clue how to calculate accuracy and tohit buffs, but you're always right anyway. And if you see 20% as your glass being half-full, then your math is a lot worse than I first expected. But again, since you're always right 20% MUST equal half-full.

And sure, why not, every time I play my blaster I'll just drag along a rad, kin, and empath so that I can have Aim up "almost every battle". Yes, I certainly see how that is a legitimate alternative to a persistent, always on tohit buff. What the hell was I thinking to question your omnipotence?

Wait, I got it! I'll just get an illusion troller instead of all that and just sit back and let them deceive the entire map. Then I don't have to even worry about being able to hit things! Yes yes, that's exactly what I'll do. Problem solved!

[/ QUOTE ]

Second time I've said it today...

I love irony.

I have explaied to you that Aim will be up either every fight or every other fight by yourself, simply by adding 2 slots. You twisted it saying that an outside buff is necessary to get these results

a full 1/5 of the blaster secondaries have access to targetting drone your "20+ combinations" is twisting math. percentages and fractions mean more than hard numbers, allow me to demonstrate using a statistic.

In 2006, a study showed that there were 744,000 homeless people in the US. Wow, that number is huge, right? Yep, thats a lot of people, but the population of the US is about 302 million people, meaning that our "homeless epidemic" is a whopping .0025 percent of the population.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bypassing everyone's resistances and defenses is nothing more than a cheap trick -- not completely unexpected as the devs have been relying on cheap tricks since I2 and the creation of the post level 40 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me see if I get this straight, because occasionally I get confused. You believe this, and you *also* believe this:

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I was much more concerned with them changing set tohit buffs to accuracy buffs, essentially making those buffs useless.

All the +accuracy in the world isn't gonna help you against foes with defense and/or tohit debuffs. This was the sole opportunity for toons without access to a persistent tohit buff to actually be able to reasonably fight these foes. Tanks and Scrappers can get Focused Accuracy at level 41, Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors can get Tactics if they can squeeze it into their builds, and the rest get NOTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

... at the same time? How do they fit in the same head?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheap Trick: when my dark/dark brute or inv/ss tank has to fight CoT and get multiple stacked tohit debuffs that completely floors their accuracy, making them unable to hit anything save 5%.

Counter Cheap Trick: some kind of tohit buff that allows me to bypass said Cheap Trick, and I dunno, actually be able to HIT my foes?

Cheap Trick: battling a room full of Sky Raiders with 3 or more force field generators, making them untouchable.

Counter Cheap Trick: having a tohit buff that will actually allow me to hit the things I'm fighting.

Cause I know I don't need to tell you that adding accuracy once your base chance to hit is floored does virtually nothing. The only thing to counter massive "cheap trick" defense buffs and debuffs are via tohit buffs.

[ QUOTE ]
Tohit buffs are, in essence, a cheap trick to bypass defenses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenses that are nothing but a cheap trick to make some foes "harder" without actually making them harder.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anything less than 15% of a tohit buff is by and large meaningless. Only Corruptors, Defenders, and Controllers can get to that level or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if you are one of those people that have the basic opinion that there is hitting all the time, and everything else, then you might think this. However, its worth noting that the current version of the invention system allows for much higher tohit buffs than that, and combined with just plain old tactics anyone could still get about as much tohit buffs as an SR scrapper has defenses, which is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ridiculous if you're an SR scrapper that PvPs. Not so ridiculous when you're fighting CoT and have 3 or more applications of Chill of the Night on you. I don't expect to hit everything all the time, but I really, really have a problem with being able to hit nothing all the time.

So if the devs reduce all the foe tohit debuffs and defense buffs (everyone who enjoys fighting large spawns of Rikti drones without a tohit buff stand up and say AYE!!) to a reasonable level and/or remove their stackability, then perhaps we wouldn't need to have all those tohit buffs. But fat chance of that happening. And oh, I forgot my very very favorite -- fighting Nemesis with not one, not two, but 3 stacked vengeance. Cheap trick indeed...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if they were actually supposed to be accuracy buffs, not tohit buffs, why were the values of the tohit buffs cut in half while on test?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, ooh, me, me!

They were originally tohit buffs because it wasn't thought that there was a way to make them accuracy buffs. They wanted to give players a way to hit more often and that was the only way to do it at the time. However, the side effect of allowing players to hit more often in this case was that they would hit defensive sets way, way, way too often.

When it became clear just how much tohit buffs there were, and how they could be stacked, in sample calculations (like, say, [u]mine[u]) they decided to knock them down so that they wouldn't hit defensive sets as hard.

The problem was that there really isn't a value for tohit buffs that is strong enough under all conditions in PvE, without being disasterous for defense sets in PvP. There is no sweet spot, but that doesn't stop the devs from trying to find one anyway. But they *knew* there was a problem, they just were not sure how to address it. They definitely wanted increased accuracy in PvE, but didn't want to further unbalance PvP. That just wasn't possible, because there isn't a Player Accuracy attribute to modify: the notion of a "player accuracy buff" doesn't exist in the current game.

The realization was, though, that while there is no way to buff a player's accuracy, there *was* a way to buff all the accuracy attributes of every single power possessed by a player. *That* revelation allowed the devs to implement the +Acc in the invention system as originally desired: something that was a nice boost in PvE, without being a problem in PvP.

The change is happening now, after go-live, because they didn't want this particular patch, which has a whole lot of powers changes, to hold up the I9 release.


They are +accuracy because they were always intended to be +accuracy. They were only +tohit because they thought they had no choice. In fact, its actually a valid point of debate to ask whether *any* "persistent" tohit buffs were actually meant to be tohit buffs when cast in this light. "Focused Accuracy" is not called "Focused ToHit:" it claims to boost accuracy, when it actually boosts player base tohit. Tactics is also specifically said to buff ally Accuracy. Something worth thinking about.

Oh, and:

[ QUOTE ]
Tohit buff = useful. Accuracy buffs = useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deslot all your accuracy and come back and say this again.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your base chance to hit is floored, accuracy does squat. You know this, I don't need to tell you this. So how exactly is that statement wrong? When you can't hit things because they've debuffed your chance to hit or have obnoxiously high defenses, adding more accuracy isn't going to help you, at least not much. Tohit buffs will help much more at significantly smaller values.

And y'know what, what the hell is wrong with actually wanting to hit everything all the time? Do you actually enjoy missing? I don't. PvP aside of course.

So there's the solution. Take out all the PvE tohit debuffs and defense buffs. Then we wouldn't need any tohit buffs in the game, and PvP can be wonderfully balanced (tho I'm sure someone will still find something to whine about).

And if the devs can find a way to turn tohit buffs into accy buffs, why can't they make that happen only in PvP areas? That way we naughtly little PvE beggars that actually like to hit what we're fighting can have fun, while all the incessant PvP defense toons can rest easy that their precious SR scrapper won't get one shotted all the time.

See, everyone wins. Oh wait, this is a Cryptic game. No, what was I thinking. This will never happen. Sorry, I got caught up in the moment. Everyone go back to whining...

[Emnity]

[ QUOTE ]

Please... hardly. I just won't get into a pissing match with someone who obviously cannot debate the points at hand and must resort to twisting my words around and saying stupid things like "well yeah, it's a Super Hero RPG but that doesn't mean it has to be actually like Super Heroes, now does it?"

[/ QUOTE ]

What's surprising about that? Middle-age fantasy based games often don't feature dysentery, plague, drilled teeth sans anesthesia and people getting wed at 13 years old, either.

There is only so much of an inspiriational source one can reflect in an MMO, sadly.

I've lost all use for "this should be more/less like the inspirational source" arguments. Comics have The Beyonder. Work that into your game engine.

[Emnity]

Post deleted by Emnity

[Krytical]

They need to stop nerfing things.

[Fuzun]

WillyBorn you assessment of Hamidon is flawed. Hamidon isn't a single entity threat like Galactus, or Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, or some Raid Boss Huge Dragon. Hamidon is more of massive invading force. Taken headon the invading force is unstoppable. What do you do? You don't take it headon.

Hamidon taken headon is unstoppable. Massive firepower. Massed amount of support fire. Well formed and overlapping defenses and support. Any force trying a headon rush is going to be annihilated. In order to defeat Hamidon, you have to treat him like an Invading Force. An army. Do beat an army you, do recon, gather intelligence, inventory your assets, form a plan of attack, pull the trigger, and hope for the best.

And Hamidon's so called breaking the rules? It doesn't matter. It's a decision the devs made so this new encounter isn't trivialized like the old Hamidon. Are PAs still useful in this new Hamidon raid? Heck ya. There are still useful versus Blue and Green mitos.

[Doctor_Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hami is modulating the frequencies on his blasts until he finds the proper N-Space you exist in.

jeez, you really need to get out more.... :)

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
When your base chance to hit is floored, accuracy does squat. You know this, I don't need to tell you this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if you're floored, accuracy *always* has an effect, tohit buffs don't unless they are high enough.

Take something with very high defense, like an Eluded scrapper in PvP, or maybe a MoGed PP in PvE. Stacking a small amount of tohit, something that might have a very dramatic effect on something very close to flooring you, on something that is deep-flooring you actually has zero effect. Accuracy always increases your chance to hit, right up to the tohit ceiling, by a proportional amount.

The proportional amount might not be as much as you want, but that's not the same thing as saying its worthless.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When your base chance to hit is floored, accuracy does squat. You know this, I don't need to tell you this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if you're floored, accuracy *always* has an effect, tohit buffs don't unless they are high enough.

Take something with very high defense, like an Eluded scrapper in PvP, or maybe a MoGed PP in PvE. Stacking a small amount of tohit, something that might have a very dramatic effect on something very close to flooring you, on something that is deep-flooring you actually has zero effect. Accuracy always increases your chance to hit, right up to the tohit ceiling, by a proportional amount.

The proportional amount might not be as much as you want, but that's not the same thing as saying its worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes yes yes... if I'm being floored, as in hit with so much tohit debuffs that after adding in the tohit buffs I still can't get above 5%, then yes, they do nothing. And yes, in that case an extra 20% accuracy is gonna add a whopping 1%. So lessee... 5% or 6% (assume no slotted accuracy enhancements)? Both squat. So what's your point?

But let's say I have a 30% persistent tohit buff and I get hit with 50% worth of tohit debuffs. Adjusted chance to hit is 30% (assuming a starting base chance to hit of 50%, not uncommon while fighting +2s and +3s). Add in 1 accuracy SO from your powers and your chance to hit is now 40%. Not great, but a whole lot better than the 6.65% I would have had without the tohit buff.

Now let's say that 30% tohit buff is now an accuracy buff. Adjusted chance to hit becomes 5%. With the 1 SO and the 30% accuracy buff my chance to hit is... <drum roll please>... 8.15%

So that big whopping 30% accuracy buff that required multiple IO sets to get, at who knows what cost in terms of reduced abilities, not to mention millions upon millions in inf, will take your accuracy in this very common case from 6.65% to 8.15% -- a net gain of 1.5% What kinda crack are you smokin dude that you think this is worthwhile???

And since when does the whole game just adjust solely for SR Scrappers in PvP? Cause it's not like I can just run out and craft up 4 or 5 full sets of IO inventions right now to give every toon I have a 30% tohit buff. You all make it sound like it's something every single toon can easily and cheaply obtain. Well it ain't. And before someone utters "Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[Psyonico]

[ QUOTE ]
"Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

PvP zones don't open up until level 15, every other to-hit buff (Yes, even "useless" Aim) opens before that.

Enhancement values also play an important roll. SR's toggle defenses offer a whopping 16% defense at TO level, three slotted at DO level, its a massive 18% defense.


Oh, and you broke your promise, you didnt stop arguing.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
And since when does the whole game just adjust solely for SR Scrappers in PvP? Cause it's not like I can just run out and craft up 4 or 5 full sets of IO inventions right now to give every toon I have a 30% tohit buff. You all make it sound like it's something every single toon can easily and cheaply obtain. Well it ain't. And before someone utters "Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

My "unfettered PvP playtime" ends at level 8, when tactics technically becomes available.

You were not meant to have the tohit buffs: this is the correction of an error. And its not SR scrappers alone that were significantly and negatively affected by this error, it was SR scrappers and stalkers, Energy Aura stalkers and brutes, force field defenders, controllers, and masterminds, Ice tankers, stone tankers and brutes, pretty much anything that relies on defense for protection. They all have to be screwed so you can hit more often? I think not: drop your difficulty scaler and go hunt weaker prey, if having fair game impairs your abilities that much.


Listen up: the game *does* in fact get designed around SR scrappers. SR scrappers virtually *always* get *screwed* because of this. The devs placed positional defenses very high up on the set bonus ladder. Do you think that was so players wouldn't be able to stack them on combat jump? Do you think that was an accident? No: that was a specific decision to make it extremely difficult for SR to stack positional defenses.

Why are power pool powers weak? Because the devs are worried that defense sets, especially SR (and Ice) can stack them too high. They are very cogniscent of that, and make sure that SR scrappers have limits to the amount of defense they can buy, and how they can stack.

Do you think the devs don't know that high-order tohit buffs skewer defense sets, like SR, in PvP? They know: I know they know. But they let everyone keep them anyway. They could fix the problem tomorrow, but they've made the calculated decision to allow players to keep those powers, so that they continue to have the effect they have in PvE, and so that they continue to have the effect they have in PvP against all other non-defense oriented power sets. They *know* they are slanting the table against defense sets, like SR, but their calculus is that if SR scrappers have to die so the majority of players can feel good about themselves, so be it.

So if you're going to cry about losing a bunch of excessive tohit buffs you were never even supposed to have in the first place, because as far as you're concerned it doesn't matter how many defense set bodies you have to stack to get a good view of the game, well, all I can say is its a shame you're not going to get what you need; not while I'm around.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone go back to whining...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious.

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

PvP zones don't open up until level 15, every other to-hit buff (Yes, even "useless" Aim) opens before that.

Enhancement values also play an important roll. SR's toggle defenses offer a whopping 16% defense at TO level, three slotted at DO level, its a massive 18% defense.


Oh, and you broke your promise, you didnt stop arguing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only promised to stop arguing with people like you who degrade the discussion to a 12-year old's level.

And for the record, this isn't an argument either, just a point of fact.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I only promised to stop arguing with people like you who degrade the discussion to a 12-year old's level.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep saying that word … I think it does not mean what you think it means …

You don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

PvP zones don't open up until level 15, every other to-hit buff (Yes, even "useless" Aim) opens before that.

Enhancement values also play an important roll. SR's toggle defenses offer a whopping 16% defense at TO level, three slotted at DO level, its a massive 18% defense.


Oh, and you broke your promise, you didnt stop arguing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only promised to stop arguing with people like you who degrade the discussion to a 12-year old's level.

And for the record, this isn't an argument either, just a point of fact.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not only completely off-topic at this point, but completely hypocritical (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/remlinker.php?Cat=0&Entry=386529&F_Board=shibbolet h&Thread=8222387&Main=8207494):)

Remember, whenever someone has a different opinion, revert to calling them "whiners" by backing it up with opinionated "facts".

(Not a point of fact, merely an observation)

[Emnity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone go back to whining...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Archana... after having done a post search on this... very emotionally involved fellow... why are you bothering?

Seriously: he's using the forum as an emotional catharsis. Just let him rant, he's harmless without some poor poster's response to mangle.

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And since when does the whole game just adjust solely for SR Scrappers in PvP? Cause it's not like I can just run out and craft up 4 or 5 full sets of IO inventions right now to give every toon I have a 30% tohit buff. You all make it sound like it's something every single toon can easily and cheaply obtain. Well it ain't. And before someone utters "Focused Accuracy" one more time, I'll remind you it can't be obtained till LEVEL 41. That gives all you SR scrappers 40 levels of unfettered PvP playtime.

[/ QUOTE ]

My "unfettered PvP playtime" ends at level 8, when tactics technically becomes available.

You were not meant to have the tohit buffs: this is the correction of an error. And its not SR scrappers alone that were significantly and negatively affected by this error, it was SR scrappers and stalkers, Energy Aura stalkers and brutes, force field defenders, controllers, and masterminds, Ice tankers, stone tankers and brutes, pretty much anything that relies on defense for protection. They all have to be screwed so you can hit more often? I think not: drop your difficulty scaler and go hunt weaker prey, if having fair game impairs your abilities that much.


Listen up: the game *does* in fact get designed around SR scrappers. SR scrappers virtually *always* get *screwed* because of this. The devs placed positional defenses very high up on the set bonus ladder. Do you think that was so players wouldn't be able to stack them on combat jump? Do you think that was an accident? No: that was a specific decision to make it extremely difficult for SR to stack positional defenses.

Why are power pool powers weak? Because the devs are worried that defense sets, especially SR (and Ice) can stack them too high. They are very cogniscent of that, and make sure that SR scrappers have limits to the amount of defense they can buy, and how they can stack.

Do you think the devs don't know that high-order tohit buffs skewer defense sets, like SR, in PvP? They know: I know they know. But they let everyone keep them anyway. They could fix the problem tomorrow, but they've made the calculated decision to allow players to keep those powers, so that they continue to have the effect they have in PvE, and so that they continue to have the effect they have in PvP against all other non-defense oriented power sets. They *know* they are slanting the table against defense sets, like SR, but their calculus is that if SR scrappers have to die so the majority of players can feel good about themselves, so be it.

So if you're going to cry about losing a bunch of excessive tohit buffs you were never even supposed to have in the first place, because as far as you're concerned it doesn't matter how many defense set bodies you have to stack to get a good view of the game, well, all I can say is its a shame you're not going to get what you need; not while I'm around.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1: I love that you know all of this.
#2: I would love to know how you know all of this.
#3: Can I get a thought transfer so I can understand it all even if I did know where you get all that wonderful information?:D :D

I always enjoy your posts.

-Sam

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
#2: I would love to know how you know all of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bother the devs for years, you pick up a thing or two.

[Darkonne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
#2: I would love to know how you know all of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bother the devs for years, you pick up a thing or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I suspect most of us would just pick up a bunch of /ignores.

-D

[MMZ_Torak]

[ QUOTE ]
This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hrumpf!

Back before Phaseshift was gutted (Pre CoV) many people, my self included, suggested that phased characters be able to attack each other rather than the now in-place, kludge of a fix to keep Masterminds in check, was implemented. The official response was, essentially "We do not want to do that because who is to say that all people phase in the same way." or to use Champions terms, every ones phase shift special effect was different.

Now that get tossed out the window for Hami?

Bah. Just remove phaseshift from the game already, rather than keep nipping pieces off it's decaying carcass. The power is still useless in the developer stated role of an Oh crap! power because of the activation time (which was promised to be fixed, but I doubt it has been).

[The_Centurion]

Honestly, I have PS on one character and that is soley for RP purposes. Were it not for that I would have none of the Concealment Pool.

If MMs were the issue, why not simply have their Pets "die" if the owner uses Phases Shift. "Hey....the boss just left us high and dry...let get outta here".

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hrumpf!

Back before Phaseshift was gutted (Pre CoV) many people, my self included, suggested that phased characters be able to attack each other rather than the now in-place, kludge of a fix to keep Masterminds in check, was implemented. The official response was, essentially "We do not want to do that because who is to say that all people phase in the same way." or to use Champions terms, every ones phase shift special effect was different.

Now that get tossed out the window for Hami?

Bah. Just remove phaseshift from the game already, rather than keep nipping pieces off it's decaying carcass. The power is still useless in the developer stated role of an Oh crap! power because of the activation time (which was promised to be fixed, but I doubt it has been).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that might have been what they said, but the reality was in the game engine not allowing it. "Phase Shift" is basically a flag saying "this person is now not touchable". Same holds true for other powers like dimension shift, detention field, Phantom Army, etc. Hami obviously was re-programmed to allow him to hit targets that are flagged as "untouchable". But this still is not the same as allowing one phase shifted person to fight another. That would still require additional re-coding that's probably neither quick or easy.

[spyrl]

Just to add my two cents...I've had multiple instances when normal foes have hit my only character with PS through the phase...and I've taken screenshots of almost every one where it clearly state that my character "cannot hit nor be hit"... yet still dies. So the fact that an uber pile of goo can hit my char while PS'd is, well, rather unsurprising. Does it irritate me that a power does not work as stated? Sure. Do I really care that it doesn't work for one freakingly huge pile of goo? Maybe. :) But I'd settle for it working 100% against the regular mobs first. :D /end2cents

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hrumpf!
[ QUOTE ]
Double Hrumpf! Nice concept, but I don't like it. Why? Too broad. I'd consider it a fair trade though if you removed ED.

[/ QUOTE ]

Back before Phaseshift was gutted (Pre CoV) many people, my self included, suggested that phased characters be able to attack each other rather than the now in-place, kludge of a fix to keep Masterminds in check, was implemented. The official response was, essentially "We do not want to do that because who is to say that all people phase in the same way." or to use Champions terms, every ones phase shift special effect was different.

[ QUOTE ]

I would think that if you were slotted the same way as another person you would be phased the same way. It's an easier explaination than evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that get tossed out the window for Hami?

Bah. Just remove phaseshift from the game already, rather than keep nipping pieces off it's decaying carcass. The power is still useless in the developer stated role of an Oh crap! power because of the activation time (which was promised to be fixed, but I doubt it has been).

[/ QUOTE ]


And for the last time saying it (for me anyway), this power was fun the way that it was before the 30 sec timer. However, I will say that for PvP purposes, yes it should have a timer IMO. What I will never understand is why the Nerf portion just always gets put right through, but the adjustment to the nerf (meaning changing activation time) gets put off til Jesus comes.

[Powerhelm]

[ QUOTE ]
However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was on a villain hami raid last night and it failed miserably. The whole PA/PS thing is bogus. "We were worried about PS/PA becoming required"

No disrespect but it's not like a solid 50% of trollers aren't Illusion already AND Not like PS isn't a pool power open to anyone thereby making it not AT limited. It's not like you guys had similar concerns for PvP and Leaping or TP or Acrobatics all of which are considered mandatory for PvP...

If you think we should beat it a certain way then fine TELL US WHAT THAT WAY IS. A challenge would be if it were tough enough to not always beat even using the "right" tactics not just ungodly strong and us shooting in the dark.

During the last Hami we always heard about how the ways we came up with weren't what you guys wanted and how YOU wanted us to do it a certain way. First of all YOU may have made this game but WE are paying for it and playing it and some of us have been with this game as long or longer than many of the Cryptic staff! It's as much our game as it is yours how about you let us beat it our way? Nope couldn't have that.

Now the New Un-Godly Strong Hamidon 2.0...this is a crazy encounter...Mitos that can do no wrong, holds an KB that hits through even the most stalwart of Defenses and anti-KB powers...we had Grounded, Acrobatic Brutes getting KB'd 60 yds.

Give us an example of a valid Hami beating tactic...or come on live sometime and get a Hami raid.

It went from predictable and too easy, cue Trademark Cryptic Full Pendulum Overreaction Swing, to terribly difficult and not fun at all. At least with easy Hami we could have fun and socialize with other players even if it WAS a bit too easy.

The best thing you guys did in I9 was STF. Its fun, difficult but not impossible. You don't need 4 team wipes to pull an individual Recluse Lackey AV like you do with pulling AVs in the LRSF and it's not frustratingly hard like Hamidon.

STF is the perfect balance to CoH/V of fun and difficulty. It's just a shame that's not present in LRSF or the new Hami raid.

[Sampoerna]

Oh no... take a deep breath. You've just invited the Hami Pom-pom squad to the party.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I agree with the STF opinion. I very much enjoyed that one. They got it right on this Task Force.

[Poison_Pill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was on a villain hami raid last night and it failed miserably. The whole PA/PS thing is bogus. "We were worried about PS/PA becoming required"


[/ QUOTE ]

Please kill this thread.

Stop your whining.

Ooooh it's too hard there is a chance a failure, we can't perma hold while we chat and admire our colorful spandex.

Get over it. It's been proven that the new Hamidon is beatable. I was there on Test when one happened. Why should the Dev's spoon feed you?

It's like there is this group of people that think because they cannot pull up a command line and go into God mode that the game sucks. "I can't finish the game because I might die".

Stop complaining, do something constructive like reading the notes on the Hami raid on test and see what works. Better yet come up with your own solution. Don't like the "risk" go to Mercy or Pocket D and turn your self into a pumpkin.

Poison Pill

[Powerhelm]

I have no concerns about debt (lvl 50) and I LOVE a good challenge whilse LRSF is hard and I have yet to be on a team to beat it I know it's possible because I've heard it done though I think it's still a tad too hard...

I've also been on many a Hami raid as a hero. I led many of them back in the day when PS allowed me to be the targeter of Mito for everyone else attacking.

I have no trouble with a challenge but there's a challenge then there's way too challenging. If they intend us to beat it a certain way then I'd appreciate they tell us instead of us finding an alternate way and them buffing Hami even more to prevent that method and then keep teasing us with a mythical solution that they won't reveal. As they've done in the past.

Also I would like to see one successful raid on each side on each server before I hear people saying it's fine and beatable. Test is far from Live in quality of testing, player demographics on one server might be heavily Corruptor or some other AT compared to another so unlike test any one server might not have the magical mix that test did with it's access to all servers and all players...

[Sampoerna]

I know Pinnacle players have done it at least twice. I was chatting with a few VG mates that took part in one of the victories while I was on a LRSF. It took something like 4 hours.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I would like to see one successful raid on each side on each server before I hear people saying it's fine and beatable. Test is far from Live in quality of testing, player demographics on one server might be heavily Corruptor or some other AT compared to another so unlike test any one server might not have the magical mix that test did with it's access to all servers and all players...

[/ QUOTE ]

The test server did not beat him with "magic" combinations of characters. Players, maybe, but not characters.

[Fuzun]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to add my two cents...I've had multiple instances when normal foes have hit my only character with PS through the phase...and I've taken screenshots of almost every one where it clearly state that my character "cannot hit nor be hit"... yet still dies. So the fact that an uber pile of goo can hit my char while PS'd is, well, rather unsurprising. Does it irritate me that a power does not work as stated? Sure. Do I really care that it doesn't work for one freakingly huge pile of goo? Maybe. :) But I'd settle for it working 100% against the regular mobs first. :D /end2cents

[/ QUOTE ]

That is something of an Illusion. The problem is the large amount of latency in a MM Online game. that includes you internet connection, but also all of event processong of the server and the effects that your game client is rendering. What is happening from the server point of view is this. You activate Phase Shift shift powers which send the event to the Game Sever. These is a bit of delay as that peskly light speed limit. While that's happening, the AI of NPCs has activated attacks to try to hit you, the To Hit determine is made that instant. Unfortunately for you it's a teeny bit before the server received the event for your Phase Shift activate (or it's during the PS activation time). This is all according to server's sense of timing. So youve been hit before your untouchable, but you just don't know it yet. The game server has to send the event to the game client in order to render the attack and damage animations, and your PS pwoer sfx. Usually it's ranged attacks with their slow damage effects rendering which reach you well after your PS effects are done. And it looks to you like you've been shot through your phase shift. Henace the illusion of PS not working.

As I hinted above, my Peaceberinger is "hit through Phase Shift" many times even through a PB's Phase Shift has 0 artivation time. The same sort of latency lag also allows you to joust with melee attacks. You Fly, SuperSpeed or Jump past a targer with an attack queue, and attack animations and lands with you some distance away. It's just somehting that we have to accept as part of the natre of an online and fast passed game.

[Fuzun]

Powerhelm the Hamidon is isn't insurmountable. He's been beaten on the Hero side and on the Villain side. Hero side did have a bit of an advance as there is a lot of old Hamidon raid experience to pull from. Villains (even long time Hero Hami raider) didn't have an experience to draw on. But Hami-Red has been beaten none the less.

And the reason for the hurege amount of AoE and KB and Mezz is to make is challenge. It's an answer to the complaint that Controllers and Defenders had to use for most of ther buffs during the hold Hamidon. Well now there are required. No buffs means a cascade raid wipe. And big new Phase Shift is still good to have. It helps my characters have a better chance of reaching cover successfuly.

[Captain Fabulous]

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However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.

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I was on a villain hami raid last night and it failed miserably. The whole PA/PS thing is bogus. "We were worried about PS/PA becoming required"


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Please kill this thread.

Stop your whining.

Ooooh it's too hard there is a chance a failure, we can't perma hold while we chat and admire our colorful spandex.

Get over it. It's been proven that the new Hamidon is beatable. I was there on Test when one happened. Why should the Dev's spoon feed you?

It's like there is this group of people that think because they cannot pull up a command line and go into God mode that the game sucks. "I can't finish the game because I might die".

Stop complaining, do something constructive like reading the notes on the Hami raid on test and see what works. Better yet come up with your own solution. Don't like the "risk" go to Mercy or Pocket D and turn your self into a pumpkin.

Poison Pill

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And in tonight's performance, Poison Pill will be our lead Hami Pom-Pom Squad Leader...

[UberGuy]

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I have no trouble with a challenge but there's a challenge then there's way too challenging. If they intend us to beat it a certain way then I'd appreciate they tell us instead of us finding an alternate way and them buffing Hami even more to prevent that method and then keep teasing us with a mythical solution that they won't reveal. As they've done in the past.

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Once you know the general strat, it's not very hard. You have to have probably at least 35 people (that's a guess, and I'm guessing it would be fairly harder at that count) and a reasonable distribution of ATs.

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Also I would like to see one successful raid on each side on each server before I hear people saying it's fine and beatable.

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Why from each server? That's an honest question; I don't understand why that matters.

As far as Justice (or, I think, anyone who did the raids on test) is concerned, I'm pretty sure we're not keeping our strats secret. If you want to know them, just ask.

Justice's raid definitely does not have a magic powerset distribution. Things go faster if you have folks who can TP the dead back to cover. Folks who can rez help. Having 1-3 Dark Defenders/Corruptors/MMs helps because they can offer AoE Fear protection. You need people with good taunting ability (usually Tankers/Brutes) and both ranged and AoE healing are important, but both of these things were important (imperative) in the old raid.

It works best if you can split into aggro holding groups, melee groups that pound on yellows, ranged groups that take on blues, and a mezzing group that takes on greens. Once the greens are down, our green group takes on blues as well. Justice hasn't set any quotas on the number of people doing each; we just said "hey, if you do these things go here".

[Poison_Pill]

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And in tonight's performance, Poison Pill will be our lead Hami Pom-Pom Squad Leader...

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Sorry, I'm not a /EM, no pink pom poms here.

Poison Pill