Should Siphon Speed (kinetics) be AoE? [Archive]

Tachi_Kage

10-16-2006, 11:25 AM

First, yes kinetics is a great set, it takes many more levels then other sets to really get to the meat of what it can do, but its a fine set.

What I am asking is if Siphon speed were made into a AoE power, with no stacking of the buff on the hero/villain, just the debuff effect on targets in the AoE radius would that be overpowering or require a significant increase in the recharge or endurance cost or lowering of magnitude or duration of this power. It's not auto-hit like many debuff effects from say Dark, Rad, storm, or corruptor Cold. So I think it wouldn't be imbalancing. But with a change like this I think kinetics defenders/corruptors/controllers would be able to contribute alot more in teams in the early to mid game as they would have at least one siginifcant debuff to throw in fights.

Teklord

10-16-2006, 11:30 AM

I would say NO.

Kin defenders are very good at low levels. Transfusion, Siphon Power alone will turn the tide of most battles. The trick with Kinetics is to get close to melee for all of the buffage.

Transfusion, Siphon Power, Increase Density, Speed Boost are all received by level 12 and very useful for teams.

-Teklord

So_Evil

10-16-2006, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
with no stacking of the buff on the hero/villain

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the main reason a lot of people use it, to stack it for the double buff.

Tachi_Kage

10-16-2006, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

That is the main reason a lot of people use it, to stack it for the double buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant it wouldn't stack with itself from 1 use, like fulcrum shift with the layered buffing by being in radius of the user and in radius of the targets.

It wouldn't change Siphon speed stacking on top of already present siphon speed buff effects just like it does now, just not mulitple effects all at once if the slow debuff was changed to an AoE.

bekkar

10-16-2006, 01:35 PM

I consider this unlikely, as Kinetics is not a weak set, but nor do I think making the slow/-recharge aspect a small AoE would make the set overpowering. As it would not increase the buff aspect, it would be a fairly small change. However, with the change being that small and there being no real problem to address, I have to question why the developers would bother.

Teklord

10-16-2006, 01:52 PM

I would vote against this type of change. Kinetics is fine the way it is. Having played more that 200 levels of kinetics I am very pleased with it.
-Teklord

Warmaster

10-16-2006, 02:17 PM

I think it would be a bit too powerful, and too limiting with your restrictions.

Right now, with SO's and aggressive slotting, I can stack 3 Siphons (for a very short period), and usually have 2 on them. That's a potent debuff for both speed and recharge.

Making it AOE, even limiting it to say 5 targets, would mean that I have essentially hit 5 (or more) targets with that debuff.

Consider Lingering Radiation from Rad - this would turn SS into a similar power, but with a +Speed and +Recharge instead of -Regen, but signifcantly sooner and with lower costs attached.

-- War

Mezzosoprano

10-17-2006, 11:17 AM

When theorizing about making major changes to kinetics, I usually focus on two things -- siphon speed and inertial reduction.

If I were elected dictator, I'd move IR with no changes substantially earlier in the power list, probably to where siphon speed is now. I like IR, and moving it early would make it even more useful.

If Siphon Speed got pushed back to IR's slot, it would need some oomph added -- AOE debuff, AOE buff, or both. AOE speed debuff would probably be over the top, especially if it gave self-stacking buffs like FS. But it would be awesome to supercharge your team with a combo of FS and SS!

FlyingCodeMonkey

10-17-2006, 01:23 PM

Kin is an extremely good set as-is, throughout its career. It needs no changes. Do not draw the developer eye to Kin.

Giant2005

10-17-2006, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kin is an extremely good set as-is, throughout its career. It needs no changes. Do not draw the developer eye to Kin.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFE odds are if the Devs actually take notice of posts like this and take a look at Kin, its gonna get nerfed.

Crawler

10-18-2006, 06:40 AM

You know, I read posts like that all the time and it has really started irking me. Just because a set is integrally well balanced and, because of that, runs smoothly and becomes "FOTM" or receives a lot of attention on the boards does not mean that is is nerf-bait.

Some sets have been, in the past, over the top easy - i3/4 regen (as much as I hate to admit) - and deserve to be knocked down a notch or two. Kinetics on the other hand, does not go above and beyond the other Defender primaries. But, on it's own, is a very solid set.

Contrary to popular belief, the devs are not constantly on a nerf hunt seeking out the next set to slaughter. They are monitoring all sets to see if one stands out more than others and does things beyond their original concept. If it does, they research it and see if it is exploitable or overly unbalancing. If it is they tone it down - or nerf it, if it isn't then they leave it as it is and give the players a nod for working out a strategy that they didn't think of.

Castle

10-18-2006, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kin is an extremely good set as-is, throughout its career. It needs no changes. Do not draw the developer eye to Kin.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFE odds are if the Devs actually take notice of posts like this and take a look at Kin, its gonna get nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've looked at Kinetics a lot. There are no plans to change it at this time.

Original_Mr_Samoa

10-18-2006, 11:29 AM

Yay! Kinetics rocks just as it is, in my opinion.

Imaginaut

10-18-2006, 11:34 AM

ya if this worst thing in this set I ever have to do is keep someone SB'd ...Ill take it. Its worth the hassle.

Nibb_Nibb

10-18-2006, 11:38 AM

If ANYTHING in the Kinetics set needs looked at, it's Transfusion (first power in the set). A heal that requires a hit AND requires the MOB not to die AND requires the person you're trying to heal to stay in the small radius can get annoying. Plus, the -regen it provides could be a bit longer lasting.

To be honest though, there are plenty of other sets that could be looked at well before Kinetics.

Stack

10-18-2006, 11:41 AM

I like Transfusion. There are tradeoffs for everything: yes, you need to hit, but in exchange you get a HUGE AoE heal. And the radius is big enough to cover the entire melee area of your average group of mobs.

bekkar

10-18-2006, 11:43 AM

I believe the "mob can't die during the activation" issue is well known, but was determined to be very difficult to fix given the limitations of the game engine. In other words, I think it's been looked at, and was given a "ouch, sorry, can't help ya" :eek:

Zen_Concern

10-18-2006, 11:51 AM

Lady Thanatos

10-18-2006, 12:29 PM

And there lies the reason my Taxibot has the Medicine pool. ::thinks of all the grumbling of the Transfusion target dying a microsecond too early:: >.>;

-- Lady T

Captain Fabulous

10-18-2006, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kin is an extremely good set as-is, throughout its career. It needs no changes. Do not draw the developer eye to Kin.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFE odds are if the Devs actually take notice of posts like this and take a look at Kin, its gonna get nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've looked at Kinetics a lot. There are no plans to change it at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle, any chance of revisiting the "bug" that causes transfusion to fail if the target dies? I remember awhile back this was explained in detail, and I think it basically wound up as "there isn't anything we can do about it". Is this still an accurate assessment? Any chance that transfusion can be adjusted to compensate for this; such as a greater heal, lower end cost, or shorter recharge? Having just started playing a kinetics controller I've come to see just how often this problem really happens -- and it's alot, sometimes as much as half the time. Even when one is aware of it, it's still sometimes very difficult to pick a good target, especially on a large team.

EvilRyu

10-18-2006, 12:39 PM

MadScientist

10-18-2006, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Castle, any chance of revisiting the "bug" that causes transfusion to fail if the target dies?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, seconded, /signed, and whatever else you want a self-professed Kinetics junkie to say about this.
It also does the same thing on Transferrence and on the non-Caster parts of Fulcrum Shift. You always get the double-strength FS Buff around the caster, but can miss out on all the buffs/debuffs around the dead target. Can we at least get FS to target everything upon casting, like Fireball would, so even if the primary target goes away the ones still standing will be hit.

ArchLight

10-18-2006, 12:53 PM

_Ilr_

10-18-2006, 12:53 PM

The believable Part:[ QUOTE ]
I've looked at Kinetics a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Not-So believable Part:[ QUOTE ]
There are no plans to change it at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

"at this time" being the most worrisome part of that...
Just remember that there's a long list of Powers/Sets "breaking the game" worse than Kinetics:
(or in some cases, break the game worse when combined with Kinetics)

-Rad Emission
-Will Domination
-Fire pImPz0Rz
-HotFeet
-Energy Manipulation
-Bitter Ice Blast
-Impale
-Clear Mind
-SuperJump
-Quick Recovery
-Headsplitter
-Buildup + Aim
-Focussed Accuracy
-Fireball
-Spine Burst
-Psionic Mastery('troller version)
-Stamina
-Energy Absorption
-Granite Armor
-Energy Transfer
-Singularity
-Spectral Terror
-Siren's Song
-Aid Self
-Placate
-Ninjitsu
-Thugs
-Tar Patch
-Integration
-Energy melee
-Recharge discounts on Boss-Class Mobs.
-LT, Boss, EB, and AV Psi-Damage #'s
-Arch-Villain & Hero burst damage / attack chains.

Sooo yeah... Any nerfs to Kinetics better be preceeded by changes to ALL of those things first.
...which we know will never, ever happen.

Gangrel_NA

10-18-2006, 01:45 PM

Sardan

10-18-2006, 02:13 PM

Overall Kinetics rocks, and I would be fine with no changes. That said, if I was king for a day, I'd make the duration of Increase Density equal that of Speed Boost, and I'd make Repel into a true repel power rather than knockdown. Per the suggestion above, I would love to see Inertial Reduction give knockdown/knockback resistance. I would love to see these changes, but not at the cost of any nerfs to offset the new goodness, however.

The problem with Transfusion/Transference/Fulcrum Shift not working if the target dies is well known. The devs have acknowledged it's a problem with the game engine, but apparently it's a design shortcoming, not a simple bug fix. So while this would be FAR AND AWAY my biggest desire to see fixed, I'm not holding my breath. My guess is it won't ever change, sadly.

Teklord

10-18-2006, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with Transfusion/Transference/Fulcrum Shift not working if the target dies is well known. The devs have acknowledged it's a problem with the game engine, but apparently it's a design shortcoming, not a simple bug fix. So while this would be FAR AND AWAY my biggest desire to see fixed, I'm not holding my breath. My guess is it won't ever change, sadly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dev chatter on that has changed. There has been talk of fixing this from the devs. I will try to dig up some redname posts on it.
-Teklord

El_Frawg

10-18-2006, 02:22 PM

The real change in Kinetics should be to add it as a MasterMind Secondary. Tankermind heaven!

Scaredycrowe

10-18-2006, 03:44 PM

Heck no! It's fine as is. Any boost like you would want would make kin a FOTM again and we'd have a bunch of folks with no real clue how to play a kin properly running around.

_Ilr_

10-18-2006, 08:44 PM

You mean like the guys who PL'd up in Issue-1 for the "hour glass" FulcrumShift?
Or the ones that PL'd up in Issue-4 before Targets were limited to 10 on PbAoE's?

Sorry, just wannted a little clarification on which era of 'n00bs' we're talking about here.
-ilr... (who's admittedly sick of all the Fire/Kins taking up space in PinballWizards, and even more sick of having to leave missions mid-way through to pick up more BF's b/c none of these "tank mage" builds ever include I.D. or Stimulant).

El_Six

10-19-2006, 02:13 AM

I'm admittedly sick of all the people who WHINE about the "bugs" of Transfusion, Transference, and Fulcrum Shift! Regardless of whether they were intended to work as they currently work or not in this regard, I posit it's a damn good reason none of these powers has been downgraded.

Furthermore, kinetics is a skillset. Part of why it's my favorite is because it requires the practitioner to PAY ATTENTION. This means NOT targeting the almost-dead minion with these powers. This means ACTIVELY keeping tabs on the battle and using positional powers to ensure effectiveness. Given the speed and recharge bonuses the set provides, and the resultant accelerated rate of battle, the requirement for the user to exhibit these attributes is further magnified.

So no, don't change it. Keep all the lazy and inept people off my set. You are not welcome.

Akuma_Hellkite

10-19-2006, 03:17 AM

Atilla_The_Pun

10-19-2006, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the "mob can't die during the activation" issue is well known, but was determined to be very difficult to fix given the limitations of the game engine. In other words, I think it's been looked at, and was given a "ouch, sorry, can't help ya" :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh... Twilight Grasp works while the target is Dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Twilight Grasp is not foe-centered. And Kinetics is not the only set with a foe-centered AoE that has this problem. I suspect that all foe-centered AoE's have this problem, but I won't say that I have a complete list.

I do know that ILL>Blind (small cone "sleep" in addition to ST hold) suffers from it. It's much harder to catch because of the faster animation of Blind, and the far more subtle effect of sleep (as well as the fact that it's easily broken by an AoE'ing team mate). But it is there, I've seen it.

VileTerror

10-19-2006, 06:29 AM

Transference and Fulcrum Shift also suffer from the "dying target" problem.

My main hero was a Fire/Kinetics Controller. The failure on dying targets was annoying, but aside from that I don't think the Kinetics set is really in need of any modifications. Accuracy was a pain, but understandable given the incredible power the successful hits actually grant.

Captain Fabulous

10-19-2006, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the "mob can't die during the activation" issue is well known, but was determined to be very difficult to fix given the limitations of the game engine. In other words, I think it's been looked at, and was given a "ouch, sorry, can't help ya" :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh... Twilight Grasp works while the target is Dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Twilight Grasp is not foe-centered. And Kinetics is not the only set with a foe-centered AoE that has this problem. I suspect that all foe-centered AoE's have this problem, but I won't say that I have a complete list.

I do know that ILL>Blind (small cone "sleep" in addition to ST hold) suffers from it. It's much harder to catch because of the faster animation of Blind, and the far more subtle effect of sleep (as well as the fact that it's easily broken by an AoE'ing team mate). But it is there, I've seen it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Thug Mastermind power Gang War also suffers from this problem.

Lady Thanatos

10-19-2006, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, kinetics is a skillset. Part of why it's my favorite is because it requires the practitioner to PAY ATTENTION. This means NOT targeting the almost-dead minion with these powers. This means ACTIVELY keeping tabs on the battle and using positional powers to ensure effectiveness. Given the speed and recharge bonuses the set provides, and the resultant accelerated rate of battle, the requirement for the user to exhibit these attributes is further magnified.

So no, don't change it. Keep all the lazy and inept people off my set. You are not welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh... I tend to con the third or fourth villain in the mob. But there's not much you can do when you're on a high-level team that mows through everything, particularly after a good application of Fulcrum Shift. Then again, this is why I picked up the Medicine pool for when someone's still hurting after the battle.

"Lazy and inept" isn't entirely accurate. Maybe "rigid and unadaptable" might work better. :eek:

-- Lady T

Trinculo

10-19-2006, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm admittedly sick of all the people who WHINE about the "bugs" of Transfusion, Transference, and Fulcrum Shift!
{snip..snip}

Furthermore, kinetics is a skillset. Part of why it's my favorite is because it requires the practitioner to PAY ATTENTION. {snip...snip}

So no, don't change it. Keep all the lazy and inept people off my set. You are not welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bravo, well said.

Yes there is an 'art' to playing a Kin, both in terms of target selection, character position, etc. We are IMHO the ultimate force multiplier when used correctly.

We are NOT the class for someone who just wants to float outside of melee range (or run into the middle of melee) and cycle through their attack keys over and over.. and frankly I like it that way. The only class that IMHO requires more heads-up play is the Dominator, the play of which is a bit like those plate-spinning acts in the circus..

VileTerror

10-19-2006, 09:51 AM

I actually originally selected Medicine since my Kinetics Controller needed a revive power for canonical purposes. However, I'm very glad I did from a gameplay stance as well. It grants me the opportunity to heal out of combat, when there are no enemies available for Transfusion, and with the Interupt Time enhancements, it also allows me to heal in combat in the case of an emergency. I'm referring to both Aid Other and Aid Self. Resuscitate has also been a great boon, but not nearly as much as the two Aid powers.

Lady Thanatos

10-19-2006, 01:23 PM

Oh yeah, the Medicine rez comes in handy. It's good for combat situations if you time it right. Resuscitate + target accept + Transference = ready to rock! If there's nothing left to Transference off of... well, an early application of SB does the trick too.

-- Lady T

Teklord

10-19-2006, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the "mob can't die during the activation" issue is well known, but was determined to be very difficult to fix given the limitations of the game engine. In other words, I think it's been looked at, and was given a "ouch, sorry, can't help ya" :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]
Here is the redname post that contradicts this long held belief. There is a fix that requires animation time.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....rue#Post4675148 (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Defender&Number=4675148&S earchpage=1&Main=4675148&Words=Transfusion+_Castle _&topic=&Search=true#Post4675148)

Here is the quote
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

* Bug: When Transfusion is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, there is no heal, though the animation fires. However, if Twilight Grasp goes off on a dying enemy, it heals the recipients. There are also reports of the same issue occuring if the enemy moves out of Line of Sight during Tranfusion's animation time. (Rigel_Kent adds: To be more technical, this seems to be a problem with all AoE effects generated around the single target of a power. Illusion Control->Blind's AoE mez effect also has this problem; if the Blind damage defeats the target, the AoE mez will not happen. AoE's generated around the user don't have this problem.)
* Bug: When Transference is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, there is no endurance regained for those in the AOE, though the animation fires. (Dark Pyroblast)
* Bug: If Fulcrum Shift is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, you get the single 50% caster buff, but NOT the 25% effect from the dying mob OR any mobs around him. (Quason)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll put this on the bug list. I think it takes animation time. See above for problems with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

bekkar

10-19-2006, 03:22 PM

Interesting. I was under the impression, and I'll have to search this evening, that a previous post had said that it was possible but prohibitively difficult to fix. Apparently, they've found another way...although the fact that it's 9 months later without the change going through makes me wonder.

The possibility of an increased animation time for Transfusion is kind of meh, but we'll have to see what happens.

Teklord

10-19-2006, 03:52 PM

Animation time means they need to have the Animators create a new animation for the new power. It doesn't mean the animation time of the power will change.
-Teklord

Castle

10-19-2006, 05:59 PM

You'll notice in that quote I said "I think" -- turns out I was wrong. It's a timing issue in code and would need some serious work to address. It's still on the list, but it's low priority due to the difficulty involved.

_Ilr_

10-19-2006, 06:40 PM

Yeah, that's an Issue of seperate entities After-Death ... It's the same thing as trying to use a -DMG power on a WarHulk to keep it from blowing up so hard, or using Hurricane on a Subelturn thinking that it might reduce the Radius of its Vengeance (or Holding them right before they die thinking it will prevent it from going off entirely). Thus it only shows up Client-Side and the Server was never instructed to actually initiate the heal.

Neither is the case, and the Same is true for any PbAoE "drop" spawned on any Mob's location. IE: the entity has it's own stats independant from those of the Targets they're spawned from. While the Debuff on the Target, and the Buff given to the player may last exactly the same duration, it is infact NOT linked to eachother except that the the Drop needs the Entity that was targeted in order to be Spawned. If that Target is {voided} and replaced with a Corpse, then the "Drop" has no where to go and attempting tofixing it by linking the AI to the Corpse at the instant of death could seriously compramise game-performance.

The challenge the Programmers face in this issue, if effectively in making "on demmand corpse recognition". ...To that end, the only stable solution I can think of, would be a Double-Check routine in the "Drop" that activated upon the request of the Animation itself.... IE: if the Animation was queued, then a subrutine would check to see if anyone in range was effect/buffed.... If no one in range was hit by it, then a second function would be queued that would select the nearest corpse and attempt a second PbAoE. Would this be exploitable?.... probably, and it could even result in "double heals" at times or mis-placed PbAoE's. But atleast it could potentially "fix" the timing failure between Client and Server.

Epiphoid

10-19-2006, 06:51 PM

Kinetics is already a very good and useful set. You also have speed boost, so an AoE Siphon Speed is just redudant.

Jitter

10-19-2006, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the "mob can't die during the activation" issue is well known, but was determined to be very difficult to fix given the limitations of the game engine. In other words, I think it's been looked at, and was given a "ouch, sorry, can't help ya" :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh... Twilight Grasp works while the target is Dying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Twilight Grasp is not foe-centered. And Kinetics is not the only set with a foe-centered AoE that has this problem. I suspect that all foe-centered AoE's have this problem, but I won't say that I have a complete list.

I do know that ILL>Blind (small cone "sleep" in addition to ST hold) suffers from it. It's much harder to catch because of the faster animation of Blind, and the far more subtle effect of sleep (as well as the fact that it's easily broken by an AoE'ing team mate). But it is there, I've seen it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens with Glue Arrow, and Poison Gas Arrow, certainly.

Progenesis

10-19-2006, 10:02 PM

I'm surprised at some of the things you have on your list. Are you calling for nerfs for some of these things? Because, if so, I can't agree. For instance, I'd be pissed if someone touched will domination. I built a kin/psy character for that power alone.

Progenesis

10-19-2006, 10:10 PM

What I wish the devs would do is open up the target based AoEs such as transfusion and transference to flip flop to caster based AoEs with the placement of a certain enhancement in an enhancement slot. This would cost something (a slot) but would allow people the option to make the powers caster based AoEs. Something similar was done for axe tankers at one time (changed knockback to knockdown), so perhaps it could be done for these powers as well.

MaestroMavius

10-20-2006, 12:32 AM

Maybe an idea for inventions?
I was hoping Siphon Speed would be an AOE when I started out, so I wasn't leaving my duo partner in the dust at level 8 but alas.
That said now that I'm about to hit 32 I feel the Kin set is one of the most well rounded I've played and I've had altitis since issue 4!

_Ilr_

10-20-2006, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised at some of the things you have on your list. Are you calling for nerfs...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope not at all... was simply making the point that all of these things (usually in combination with eachother) would logically preceed or accompany Kinetics in order if Nerfs started being handed out again.

Ground_Force

10-20-2006, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised at some of the things you have on your list. Are you calling for nerfs...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope not at all... was simply making the point that all of these things (usually in combination with eachother) would logically preceed or accompany Kinetics in order if Nerfs started being handed out again.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, you won't have to worry about KIN being nerfed if you don't talk about it. Once you get the discussion opened up, you may need to "be happy with what you get" or lose.

GF

_Ilr_

10-20-2006, 04:32 AM

Lol... b/c we all know that trouble never befalls those who aren't aware of its existance or proximity....

darksable

10-20-2006, 05:44 AM

How about making Increased density last longer? Maybe? My numberpad fingers are getting sore from recasting it so often.

ilovetheusers

10-20-2006, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First, yes kinetics is a great set, it takes many more levels then other sets to really get to the meat of what it can do, but its a fine set.

What I am asking is if Siphon speed were made into a AoE power, with no stacking of the buff on the hero/villain, just the debuff effect on targets in the AoE radius would that be overpowering or require a significant increase in the recharge or endurance cost or lowering of magnitude or duration of this power. It's not auto-hit like many debuff effects from say Dark, Rad, storm, or corruptor Cold. So I think it wouldn't be imbalancing. But with a change like this I think kinetics defenders/corruptors/controllers would be able to contribute alot more in teams in the early to mid game as they would have at least one siginifcant debuff to throw in fights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I do love this idea (I do), I'd have to say that my kinetics is one of the most usefull members of the team ever. SpeedBoost is IMO the best buff in the whole game. If my toon only had SB and FS, he'd still get invited and be useful.

Solo however, is a different story. I'm not so spiffy solo.

Progenesis

10-20-2006, 07:13 AM

Cool enough. Thanks for the explanation.

HexGirl

10-20-2006, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kinetics is already a very good and useful set. You also have speed boost, so an AoE Siphon Speed is just redudant.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've read, they aren't asking for Siphon Speed to be an AoE like Inertial Reduction is, they are asking for the debuff effects to be AoE and hit more then one target.

Higher chance of it hitting and you getting your buff, and slow a whole group down at the same time. Speed Boost has nothing to do with this as it can't be used on yourself and isn't a debuff.

Myndstar

10-20-2006, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I do see one needed change to make it more melee centered. Inertial reduction should give at least the caster knockdown, knockback resistance. It is hard to take advantage of Fulcrum shift when you get knocked back before you even get your buffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. True it is annoying getting knocked back as you fire Fulcrum Shift, but that is part of the challenge (and possibly a subtle balancing point given how useful the power is). Besides, given its name and what Inertial Reduction does, I'd say it would make just as much sense for it to be a Self +Knockback...as in, if you have inertial reduction in effect it is easier for you to get knocked around. And as amusing as that would be from time to time, I don't think we want to see it happen. :D

Kong_Fuu

10-20-2006, 10:21 AM

I think a reasonable workaround for Transfusion would be to move the heal to the very beginning of the animation, basically closing down the window between the start of the attack and the time when the mob still has to be alive for the heal to work. It does make the power slightly more powerful than it would otherwise be, but I think that's a reasonable compromise to make for a defect in your game engine that would otherwise be very difficult to fix.

What if Transfusion was turned into a very small AoE that also worked on corpses even if you can't target them? There might be an issue with stacking the heals if you do that though.

Binary10

10-20-2006, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think a reasonable workaround for Transfusion would be to move the heal to the very beginning of the animation, basically closing down the window between the start of the attack and the time when the mob still has to be alive for the heal to work. It does make the power slightly more powerful than it would otherwise be, but I think that's a reasonable compromise to make for a defect in your game engine that would otherwise be very difficult to fix.

What if Transfusion was turned into a very small AoE that also worked on corpses even if you can't target them? There might be an issue with stacking the heals if you do that though.

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Moving it to the start of the animation wouldn't be significantly more powerful than it is now, as long as the animation time remained the same. Sure, it would keep people alive if you miss getting the heal off by half a second, but most of the time when that occurs they're taking so much damage they plant before it's recharged anyway.

What would be far more powerful about it is that people wouldn't miss so many transfusions. While better kin players already don't miss many, that would still be a noticable boost. I always figured it healed for so much in large part to compensate for this bug. That being said, I think this solution would be good if a fix is desired. A few rare times it could fail then (If the enemy died the instant of activation, probably) but far less than now.

It would boost the power of fulcrum shift and transference even less to do this (As far as the timing boost goes, not the less-missing goes) because neither of them are directly involved in keeping people up.

Primacy

10-20-2006, 01:01 PM

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You'll notice in that quote I said "I think" -- turns out I was wrong. It's a timing issue in code and would need some serious work to address. It's still on the list, but it's low priority due to the difficulty involved.

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Couldn't you make the heal immediate, but then keep the caster frozen for the animation. Quick fix. It makes Trasfusion a little better, so drop the heal amount a little bit to compensate for the buff.

Captain Fabulous

10-20-2006, 01:17 PM

I don't remember exactly the details of the problem, but the crux is that these powers are driven off of enemies, so there is a lot of complex stuff going on behind the scenes that gets this to work. I seem to recall something about how the power creates something akin to a "pet" that does the work. As Castle said, it's a timing issue, along the lines of 1.) cast power, do accuracy check, 2.) successful check, create pet, 3.) pet then acts upon the initial target to apply power effect.

There is a short period of time, between when the power is activated and the pet tries to apply the buff. If the initial target dies during this period, the pet has nothing to work off of and the power fails.

The solution requires finding a way to either speed up this process, or find another way currently not within the game engine to accomplish the same thing.

Teklord

10-20-2006, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember exactly the details of the problem, but the crux is that these powers are driven off of enemies, so there is a lot of complex stuff going on behind the scenes that gets this to work. I seem to recall something about how the power creates something akin to a "pet" that does the work. As Castle said, it's a timing issue, along the lines of 1.) cast power, do accuracy check, 2.) successful check, create pet, 3.) pet then acts upon the initial target to apply power effect.

There is a short period of time, between when the power is activated and the pet tries to apply the buff. If the initial target dies during this period, the pet has nothing to work off of and the power fails.

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This is accurate as far I as I understand it. It is a classic "race condition" which is a better thing to say then a timing issue since it identifies the problem as one of design.

The solution is simple but let me write it out and label stuff so people don't misquote me too much.

The user power is TRANSFUSION.
It creates a pet call it TPET
The pet casts a power on the enemy call it PETTRANS

so PETTRANS is the problem. It is a twilight grasp style power. Combo heal and debuff. What needs to happen is to separate the heal and the debuff in PETRANS into two powers, PETTRANSA and PETTRANSB. PETTRANSA should be the heal aura, based on Radiant Aura style heals, no target needed. PETTRANSB should be the debuff that applies -regen to the target. If PETTRANSB fails it will be because the enemy is dead already, and we don't care anymore.

This isn't a radical solution, it is pretty simple infact. There may be limits, the type of pet spawned by TRANSFUSION today may not be one that can do multiple actions. No big deal, use a different class of pet. Overall the issue is something that could be solved by an engineer taking a little time to solve the design flaw of the power rather than patch it with a bandaid.

-Teklord

BC_Coulomb

11-21-2006, 10:43 AM

The transfusion thing doesn't seem like a bug, because the dark heal power will work from a target who dies after activation. If they can do it with dark, why not kinetics... they work very simularly. I think they planned the fact transfusion doesn't heal when target is dies during animation. If you think about the two power sets it makes sense. A dead target has no regen so where would the buff come from. Dark is sapping energy from their very soul, hehe.

Kinetics still rocks!

And for the original post question, not a good idea. Could you imagine what that would be like in PvP...... nastily unfair, and completely overpowered in PvE as well. Would cause a sharp rise in Kin defs and trollers (not that thats a bad thing).

Warmaster

11-21-2006, 11:54 AM

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The transfusion thing doesn't seem like a bug, because the dark heal power will work from a target who dies after activation. If they can do it with dark, why not kinetics... they work very simularly.

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Technically, they don't work the same.

For Dark, the AOE comes from you, the caster, so the power comes from you. Only one "live" check is needed - when the power is activated.

For Kinetics, the AOE comes from the target. The game does this by summoning a pet that actually emits the heal. This results in two checks - one when the power is activated, one when the heal is activated.

Transfusion, Transferece, Fulcrum Shift, Stygian Circle, Dark Extraction and other all have this problem.

-- War