Is soul storm broke?looking for dev response. [Archive]

LivingHellfire

07-26-2006, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which part is a bug, the BF beforehand negating the power, or the power negating the ability to use a BF and free oneself?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I think we'll need a redname to give the final word, but I'm certain it's the second part that's the bug.

The floating, spinning action is supposed to be the visual manifestation of the hold. If you're not held, poof, no manifestation.

[/ QUOTE ]

One might think, but little would surprise me at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
Forever my Negative Nick. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's better.

Besides... it's not like I'm not justified. It could very well be that you should be able to break out of it... I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't by design.

But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

UberGuy

07-26-2006, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that the floating portion prevents you from using breakfrees similar to the way a knockback does. It's only supposed to be a hold + DoT, not a 10 second long knockback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, trust me, I'm intimately familar with what the problem is. :)

Castle

07-26-2006, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.

LivingHellfire

07-26-2006, 06:49 PM

Oceanborn

07-26-2006, 07:08 PM

Abigail Frost

07-26-2006, 08:17 PM

NitroShortman

07-26-2006, 08:36 PM

you tell them Abigail!

Oceanborn

07-26-2006, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.

[/ QUOTE ]
So what are you saying Castle, that the power will become a 'normal' hold that can easily be resisted by anyone? :(

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

No PPP hold for any other AT should outperform a Dominator hold. We have enough issues with "We don't need any steenkin Doms" to continue having every other AT outperform us at our job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.

Ninus

07-26-2006, 08:59 PM

Then we best not tell you about Black Scorpion's Hero Holding Bane Mace Web Grenade power. That thing is wicked at holding, and I've seen it stacked up to permahold darn near anything it hits. Besides isnt the Dom more than just a Hold Artiste? I mean, if not; we dont need no stee... :p

Hibernoob

07-26-2006, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP soul storm causes effected opponents to spin around, and while in this stasis they can not use a bf. If they use one before hand they will not be effected by either the hold or the ariel acrobatics. I just want an official word or link about this power.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a known bug. A fix is in the works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!

Oceanborn

07-26-2006, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP soul storm causes effected opponents to spin around, and while in this stasis they can not use a bf. If they use one before hand they will not be effected by either the hold or the ariel acrobatics. I just want an official word or link about this power.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a known bug. A fix is in the works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you think I feel. :(

They could at least make it *hard* to resist.. like Soul Transfer but less powerful.

JordanB

07-26-2006, 11:13 PM

Personally all I care about is the animation, mmm swirly grasp! but alas...

Given their attitudes about changing animations/powers, and making "tech" changes (see: chain induction etc), I don't think they can keep that animation and not have the victim in perma-knockup stasis without heavy re-writing of the knockup code/character animations.

So, I'm thinking it'll be given

1. The CoT ritual animation (victim floats upright in a "bound" state)

2. The gravity-hover animation.

(speculation)

Oceanborn

07-27-2006, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. The CoT ritual animation (victim floats upright in a "bound" state)

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be the best alternative (but I'd rather keep the new one.)

[ QUOTE ]
2. The gravity-hover animation.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be the cop-out easy-fix.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP soul storm causes effected opponents to spin around, and while in this stasis they can not use a bf. If they use one before hand they will not be effected by either the hold or the ariel acrobatics. I just want an official word or link about this power.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a known bug. A fix is in the works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you think I feel. :(

They could at least make it *hard* to resist.. like Soul Transfer but less powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say I'm surprised. A patron power that was actually useful. I'm sure they'll do the right thing and offer us all the ability to choose a new patron though right? Since Moonbeam isn't exactly rocking my world and this known issue was well advertised in the GW thread and on the known issues page.

Then again. A 'fix' has been and will forever will be in the works for fury so what.. me worry? :p

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I'm surprised. A patron power that was actually useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? It's a hold, like char from the blaster Flame EPP. You use it, if the target has resists then it won't work, if they have a BF they can get out of it.

Are you saying that the only way that this power is useful is if it's irrisistable? Please tell me I've misunderstood and you're not complaining that they took away your un-resistable power for which there is no counter.

_Ilr_

07-27-2006, 03:58 AM

Haw haw :)

...another PvP Nerf.

(My Traps Corr was leaning more towards Mako or Scirroco anyway :p)

Valeria

07-27-2006, 04:09 AM

I'm glad to see that this power is being fixed. It being unbreakable isn't right. Like a poster mentioned before, they could have easily went with the Grav Single Target Hold or some other "ariel" hold animation for this power. How an animation get's coded as a continous knockback/knockup is beyond me. I'd think that at this point in the game's development obvious errors like this hold should be caught before they're even inplimented. The only explination i can see is this :

Programer A: Hey hit me with that Ghost Widow hold...
Programer B: Ok... (acitvates power)
Programer A: Wait...the breakfree isn't working.
Programer B: Oh yea? I coded the animation as a constant knockback. Sweet isn't it?
Programer A: That's gonna piss somebody off for sure. Hey wanna get lunch?
Programer B: Sure. I'd like some Subway right about now.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 04:19 AM

Inescapable does not mean unresistable. If you have mez resistance from your primary/secondary, a buff, or a break free it doesn't work. If you have a kinetics user around, ID will knock you out of it.

I had to beat GW using the exact same power on me to get it. I managed to do it solo even though her version blows through integration like it isn't there, you just have to use your head.

It's not supposed to be a hold, exactly like it's from an EPP - it's supposed to be like Ghost Widows just without the hundreds of points of damage. If you read the hype it'd be like an EPP but actually more powerful and it actually is - imagine my surprise.

That you lack the imagination or ability to come up with a counter to it is your problem, not mine.

Abigail Frost

07-27-2006, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

And where are the numbers wrong? The problem is that no hold in the game is supposed to be unresistible. Breakfrees not working if you are caught in Soul Storm is not working as intended.

And I have no problem with Soul Storm outperforming, say, Ice Corr holds. But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold. Currently with Soul Storm being the only unresistible hold in the game, it is infinitely better than anything else out there for PvP.

You are bitter because your "Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it" button is going bye bye.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 04:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That you lack the imagination or ability to come up with a counter to it is your problem, not mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no status effect that should not be resistable with the proper applications of BF's or CM's or ID's. Your inital post upthread indicated that you feel that's not the case.

If you can resist it already, then what are you complaining about? All they did was make it so that when the animation is active you can use a BF to break out of it. Why does that make it so useless when it merely brings it into line with every other hold in the game?

If it's not a hold... then what is it?

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or a controller's for that matter.

This is just Smoke Grenade all over again...

Iodine

07-27-2006, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Programer A: Hey hit me with that Ghost Widow hold...
Programer B: Ok... (acitvates power)
Programer A: Wait...the breakfree isn't working.
Programer B: Oh yea? I coded the animation as a constant knockback. Sweet isn't it?
Programer A: That's gonna piss somebody off for sure. Hey wanna get lunch?
Programer B: Sure. I'd like some Subway right about now.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 04:30 AM

It was unique. It was cool. It was a little piece of power that wasn't like every hold in the game - thats what made it special and I imagine, so annoying for it's victims.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It was unique. It was cool. It was a little piece of power that wasn't like every hold in the game - thats what made it special and I imagine, so annoying for it's victims.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, that's 'cause unlike every other hold in the game there was no resisting it, making it impossible to counter in any way. Not only is that grossly unbalanced (never mind that the dev team has just said that the fact that it's unresistable is a bug and not supposed to work the way it does currently... much like Smoke Grenade in the days of yore) but the only people for whom it's fun are the people using it on others.

It's an "I win" button. A bugged one, at that.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 04:49 AM

Please stop saying that you can't resist it. You can't escape it on your own, if it hits you, if you don't have mez protection from some source. Saying it's unresistable makes it sound like you can walk up to a Tank and lol at him as you put the unresistable hold on him - it doesn't work that way.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop saying that you can't resist it. You can't escape it on your own, if it hits you, if you don't have mez protection from some source. Saying it's unresistable makes it sound like you can walk up to a Tank and lol at him as you put the unresistable hold on him - it doesn't work that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Semantics.

It's a hold, like any other, meaning that you should be able to use a BF to get out of it. The fact that you can't has been acknowledged as a bug by the developement team and they will be fixing it. If you can break out of my blaster's hold, or my controller's holds or any other hold in the game, why should this one be any different?

Despite your snotty little remark about my lack of imagination in dealing with having to overcome a bugged power, it appears as though it is not my imagination that is lacking.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 05:30 AM

The instant your controllers or blasters holds come from a pool with nothing else going for it that you're now locked into for no good reason we can talk about it being 'like any other'.

We were told the PPP's would infact be better than the hero equivalents. This power actually qualified. It makes zero difference in PvE, in PvP it can be effective but anyone who falls victim to it twice is either unlucky or not in the right team.

You're right about the snotty remark. It was uncalled for as this is hardly your fault and I apologise. I'm just annoyed that they have screwed this up but it's hardly anyone outside the dev teams fault and I should remember that despite the gloating.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The instant your controllers or blasters holds come from a pool with nothing else going for it that you're now locked into for no good reason we can talk about it being 'like any other'.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a problem with the way PPP's were implemented and has nothing to do with the fact that one of the powers in said PPP is unfair and unfun as a result of a bug. I've said before that I think it's stupid that villains can't respec out of their PPP's, so if you want to argue that point I'll support you. What I won't do is support the idea that a power should exist that negates action and effectively removes other characters from the game with no opportunity to counter.

[ QUOTE ]
We were told the PPP's would infact be better than the hero equivalents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this piece of information interesting. Who said this and when?

SmokeSignal

07-27-2006, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The instant your controllers or blasters holds come from a pool with nothing else going for it that you're now locked into for no good reason we can talk about it being 'like any other'.

We were told the PPP's would infact be better than the hero equivalents. This power actually qualified. It makes zero difference in PvE, in PvP it can be effective but anyone who falls victim to it twice is either unlucky or not in the right team.

[/ QUOTE ]
Simple fact is, it's a hold. It doesn't say it's a super secret special hold, it says it's a hold. It doesn't say anywhere in it's description that it's better then any other hold, nor is it hinted anywhere that that is the case. To think that this hold in particular should be mechanically different then others is a bit on the silly side.

As previously mentioned, it's just another case of those that are using it and enjoying it's unintended side effect being upset that it's getting fixed. Anyone familiar with the game at all should have assumed this to be "not working as intended". To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

The_Foo

07-27-2006, 06:40 AM

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We were told the PPP's would infact be better than the hero equivalents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this piece of information interesting. Who said this and when?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Link (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/194/setView/features/loadFeature/588)

Matt Miller:

The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character

That and having also read this: Talkin' 'bout Soul Storm (http://www.cgonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=662&Item id=1&sectName=MMO)

(relevant part of the interview inserted here):

Will the new power sets unbalance the game a bit to the Villains favor? What is your favorite new power set and abilities?

We certainly hope that there is a balance maintained between the two games, but sometimes it’s like comparing apples to oranges. At the end of the day you have to realize they are both food, with some commonalities like they both have calories and sugar content. We have to play with those commonalities to make sure that things remain balanced between the two games.

My personal favorite Patron Power Pool would be Ghost Widow’s. The Soul Storm ability is simply too awesome for words.
All this made me think that you know, maybe it wasn't a [censored] bug and it was actually just a cool power. Powerful in pvp: Yes. Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[edit to insert bit about soulstorm so you dont have to read the whole thing]

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 06:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Matt Miller:

The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character

[/ QUOTE ]

And under what circumstances are we supposed to believe that he was talking specifically about PvP when he said this? How do we know that he didn't mean that the difference in power was supposed to be reflected in PvE, ie; making Soul Storm a mag 4 hold, allowing one application to hold a boss?

Why are you assuming that it supposed to mean specifically in PvP? Why are you advocating for something that is totally and completely un-fun for anyone other than the person using the power? The way it works now is not balanced, which leads me to believe that though Matt Miller may have made this quote, that he likely wasn't talking about PvP in terms of increasing APP strength and power over EPP's.

[ QUOTE ]
Powerful in pvp: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. In fact, I think that's a gross understatement.

[ QUOTE ]
Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

More like; easily countered by anyone who wants to pop BF's like candy just to keep a constant application up because lord knows that if you get caught by a Soul Storm you're done. That's not right, man.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.

[/ QUOTE ]

Colour me shocked.

And my faith somewhat restored.

Thank-you, Castle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Colour me shocked.

And my lack of faith in Cryptic's QA process still irredeemably shattered.

Seriously, somebody fire them and be done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point I'll put up with crappy QA just to have my faith somewhat bolstered by the odd reasonable decision coming from the Dev team.

SmokeSignal

07-27-2006, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Powerful in pvp: Yes. Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is it easily countered by any experienced PvP'er? What about those that don't have a status effect toggle? What about the team that doesn't have an emp or a kin in it. Show me the experienced PvP'er that can easily counter it in that situation.

To other posts after yours, the QA team may have some issues and made some bad mistakes since launch, but it's still head and shoulders above other major companies. That doesn't mean some of their more painful messups are ok, but it should still be considered when general slams are going to be issued.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt Miller:

The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character

[/ QUOTE ]

And under what circumstances are we supposed to believe that he was talking specifically about PvP when he said this? How do we know that he didn't mean that the difference in power was supposed to be reflected in PvE, ie; making Soul Storm a mag 4 hold, allowing one application to hold a boss?

Why are you assuming that it supposed to mean specifically in PvP? Why are you advocating for something that is totally and completely un-fun for anyone other than the person using the power? The way it works now is not balanced, which leads me to believe that though Matt Miller may have made this quote, that he likely wasn't talking about PvP in terms of increasing APP strength and power over EPP's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is not a mag 4 hold. It does not affect bosses in 1 application. It doesn't ignore anyones mez protection. It is in no way remarkable other than once it has you, it doesn't let go. You're the one trying to put your spin on what he said. He just said they'd be more powerful than their equivalents on the hero side. It's not a long winded, ambiguous statement. Whatever psychic abilities you have which let you know what Matt Miller meant to say when he said it are your business alone.

[ QUOTE ]
Powerful in pvp: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. In fact, I think that's a gross understatement.

[ QUOTE ]
Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

More like; easily countered by anyone who wants to pop BF's like candy just to keep a constant application up because lord knows that if you get caught by a Soul Storm you're done. That's not right, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're a squishy in PvP you're vulnerable to holds. If you're a Tanker or a Scrapper then you have nothing to fear from this power unless you get many thrown at you at once. A group of controllers can do the exact same thing to me, they will blow through my mez protection, they will outstrip breakfree's unless you eat them like candy. Starting to sound familiar?

Getting held isn't the end of the line in pvp. It might be if you're out on your own without anyone to help you but whenever that is brought up in any context people scream 'get a team'. The same applies here. CM makes this power as useful as any other hold when you don't possess another to stack on top of it.

Based off your mag 4 statement I'm starting to get the picture that you dont have this power and really don't know much about it other than iyou don't like it, therefore it's got to go.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Powerful in pvp: Yes. Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is it easily countered by any experienced PvP'er? What about those that don't have a status effect toggle? What about the team that doesn't have an emp or a kin in it. Show me the experienced PvP'er that can easily counter it in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is, if a member of your team gets held and they don't have a break free on them then they are doomed and there is nothing you can do to help/save/comfort them in their time of need? Because they would be in exactly the same, apparently unwinnable situation.

CrushingAbyss

07-27-2006, 07:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I'm surprised. A patron power that was actually useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? It's a hold, like char from the blaster Flame EPP. You use it, if the target has resists then it won't work, if they have a BF they can get out of it.

Are you saying that the only way that this power is useful is if it's irrisistable? Please tell me I've misunderstood and you're not complaining that they took away your un-resistable power for which there is no counter.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think what he's pointing out is that standard holds are more or less useless in PvP :p

Daikon

07-27-2006, 07:34 AM

Is this the same thing that causes you to animate multiple vomits when hero heavies fail to put a hold on you?

HAHA, oh yeah, no one cares!

UberGuy

07-27-2006, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless they're like.. eight years old, I really don't have an ounce of pity for anyone who takes that spin on this. Someone had to have been nuts to think that the current behavior was intended or balanced. That it would be corrected was so totally obvious to me it's just not funny.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 08:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That it would be corrected was so totally obvious to me it's just not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my attitude as well. I've given up arguing with Dragonov as there's now way he's gonna see it. He wants his toy and that's all there is to it, regardless of how blatantly unfair and unbalanced the power is and despite the fact that the dev team has said that it's as a result of a bug.

The bottom line is that the people complaining about this Fix (yah... fix, not nerf... it's a FIX) fall into the same category as the people who cried and screamed about Smoke Grenade getting fixed back in the day.

UberGuy

07-27-2006, 08:26 AM

I note with pride at this juncture that my Ice/Dev has never, not even briefly, had Smoke Grenade. ;)

KingSnake

07-27-2006, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It was unique. It was cool. It was a little piece of power that wasn't like every hold in the game - thats what made it special and I imagine, so annoying for it's victims.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was BROKE. If the devs intended it to work this way, don't you think they'd have document the, "Once your held you cant get out" aspect of the power? It's BUG people. Like someone said before, it's just like smokegranade. It's not being NERFED, it's being FIXED. And as such, I don't think they should try to rewrite the whole PPP system code to allow you to repick patrons.

There's no way you can tell me with a stright face you honestly belived that mister, "fighting statues is boring" statesmen would allow a unbrakeable hold to be added to his game do you?

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 09:26 AM

To be honest this isn't unexpected, but it just highlights how unfair being locked into patrons is.

It's not my fault that they screwed up. They had this on test for quite a while, in development even longer and yet it made it through into the live game. Now I'm stuck in a patron pool that is much diminished in it's pvp usefulness and unlike everyone hit by the smoke grenade I'm trapped in it.

Before I took any of my patron powers I read up on them. I checked the Ghost widow thread. No mention of it being bugged there at all. I checked the known issues page. Nothing. If in over 20 pages of discussion about the powers Ghost Widow grants nothing is mentioned about it having a known issue thats due to be fixed then the faint belief that it 'might just work like Ghost Widows' took seed. Her version ignored my integration and eventually after much stupidity I realized that a preemptive bf every 30 seconds would keep me safe from it. The player version is nowhere near that effective.

If they're going to screw up, they should fix their problems properly and thats not just the power it's all the players caught in their wake.

The_Foo

07-27-2006, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To other posts after yours, the QA team may have some issues and made some bad mistakes since launch, but it's still head and shoulders above other major companies. That doesn't mean some of their more painful messups are ok, but it should still be considered when general slams are going to be issued.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.

And, yes, a hold that essentially has no counter qualifies in my book as a pretty major bug.

The_Foo

07-27-2006, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless they're like.. eight years old, I really don't have an ounce of pity for anyone who takes that spin on this. Someone had to have been nuts to think that the current behavior was intended or balanced. That it would be corrected was so totally obvious to me it's just not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even an eight-year-old should know better than to want to play checkers vs. an opponent who only gets three pieces.

KingSnake

07-27-2006, 09:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest this isn't unexpected, but it just highlights how unfair being locked into patrons is.

It's not my fault that they screwed up. They had this on test for quite a while, in development even longer and yet it made it through into the live game. Now I'm stuck in a patron pool that is much diminished in it's pvp usefulness and unlike everyone hit by the smoke grenade I'm trapped in it.

Before I took any of my patron powers I read up on them. I checked the Ghost widow thread. No mention of it being bugged there at all. I checked the known issues page. Nothing. If in over 20 pages of discussion about the powers Ghost Widow grants nothing is mentioned about it having a known issue thats due to be fixed then the faint belief that it 'might just work like Ghost Widows' took seed. Her version ignored my integration and eventually after much stupidity I realized that a preemptive bf every 30 seconds would keep me safe from it. The player version is nowhere near that effective.

If they're going to screw up, they should fix their problems properly and thats not just the power it's all the players caught in their wake.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it all of that research you did, which i commend btw, do it ever once say anything about the hold being unbrakeable? Hmm? Didn't think so. When they fix the bug, you will have the power that was disgribed in all the research you read up on. It's its as good as any hold the other PPP's have... it's not better, but then, it shouldn't be anyway. And it was, by leaps and bounds. That should have been the second clue... oh, what was the first clue you ask? The fact NO other power in the GAME is unbrakeable with a BF. THAT should have been the first clue.

And yeah, this was BIG bug for miss FOO, i agree. I'm betting they where hopping that, since it's only a problem in PvP, that they could put off fixing it since it only effects a rather small # of people. Not a smart move IMO, but hey, what do i know.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 10:01 AM

I didn't know it worked the way it did going into the patron arc no, but I had thought it might be special. The fact that he'd said the PPP's would be better, that he'd singled out Soul Storm wasn't something I had missed. Look at whirlwind, they dropped hints that it was better than most people thought and really it was. I guess that's a bad example since they ner.. fixed it also, but it helps to illustrate the point that sometimes not everything a power does is spelled out in bold.

KingSnake

07-27-2006, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know it worked the way it did going into the patron arc no, but I had thought it might be special. The fact that he'd said the PPP's would be better, that he'd singled out Soul Storm wasn't something I had missed. Look at whirlwind, they dropped hints that it was better than most people thought and really it was. I guess that's a bad example since they ner.. fixed it also, but it helps to illustrate the point that sometimes not everything a power does is spelled out in bold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with that to a point, but something of this magnatuide would be spelled out. They would tell you, "Oh BTW, once you hold someone, they can't get loss." And they didn't. And it's the only power like it in all of CoX... so, if you look at it objectively, it's easy to see this was a bug from the start.

And who's to say the powers aren't better? I haven't compared them side by side, but better could mean, longer base duration, cost less end, recharge faster, ect. And cool factor was more then likely how it looked, the anamation it used. It IS cool.

But to think they'd make one power THAT special is unrealistic. Any MMO vet would tell you that you can't have one power outsine all the rest, or it'll cause a massive imbalance in the game, with everyone taking IT.

There has to be balance among the PPP's. If Ghost widows hold was unbrakeable, the all need to be, or else, everyones going to take hers. And that's not even dilving into the matter of, a stalker getting a hold that's better then a domanoters primary hold... No one can resonable argue that a stalker should have a better PvP hold then domonater, and yet, at present, that's what we have.

And you admit you even kind of saw this coming. Which ment some of this had to be banging around in that head of ours. So something about this power had to strike you as being too good to be true... and you know the old saying, if it seems to good to be true, it more then likely is.

Fu_Leng

07-27-2006, 11:32 AM

Look, cut me some slack, you seem a reasonable guy and I'm not saying no no no you can't fix it. My first post in this thread said I saw it comming, but I hope they give peolpe stuck in the pool the option to leave it. There is nothing in these pools that justifies the fact that we are stuck with them. Especially when they're apparently not finished working on them well after going live.

Lets look at it as it shall be for the stalker holds after this change, GW vs BS.

Ghost Widow: acc: 100%, range 80', cost 10.66, activation 2.17 recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 33.6 negative damage

Black Scorpion: acc:105%, range 60', cost 10.66, activation 2, recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 50% run fly and jump speed for 15 seconds 50% recharge rate reduction for 15 seconds disable fly.

So 30 damage and 20' range vs all of that. Mako's isn't much better but has an anti fly built in. The mu lets you stack end drain. Ghost Widows goes from easily the best, to the worst. How many people still have whirlwind in their builds these days? Somewhat less than had it in it's heyday.

The rest of my replies are spent trying to explain that yes I know it's powerful but it's not an instant I win in pvp if you have a clue. Heroes demonstrate that constantly. Would everyone take it if it was left alone? Probably almost everyone so it does have to go (I get that). (Strange how pretty much every scrapper and tanker I meet in RV has FA eh? :).

UberGuy

07-27-2006, 11:35 AM

GW's does damage and Sirroco's drains a wee bit of end. I wouldn't really consider hers "worst". You want worst hold? Try Petrifying Gaze. It does zero damage (to any stat), zero debuff, and has the worst duration/recharge ratio out there.

GW's hold is fine.

Sinistar6000

07-27-2006, 11:46 AM

Well the devs have confirmed that it will be fixed and is not working as intended. Thanks castle.

That being said I really liked that power and I dont have a character that can get it. In my opinion CoX needs more powers like this. Peeps act like its non-resistable, however if you pre-emptively eat a bf you have no prob. I like the fact that this was a hold that, if you slip and dont have mez resist, there is going to be consequence other than eating a purple pill and retoggling up. I also like the fact that this power was something that heros look at and say "Wow I wish I could have that power", like I do for so many of the heroes epics. I agree that it is unfair that corruptors and stalkers can get it, when in its current form it would validate the dominator archtype. A big reason I say that is I have a 43 dom and no high level stalks or corrupts. Im not saying the devs shouldnt fix the power (because it is not working as intended and invalidates the other patron choices), Im just saying that a power that acts like that is cool and different.

Oceanborn

07-27-2006, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

And where are the numbers wrong? The problem is that no hold in the game is supposed to be unresistible. Breakfrees not working if you are caught in Soul Storm is not working as intended.

And I have no problem with Soul Storm outperforming, say, Ice Corr holds. But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold. Currently with Soul Storm being the only unresistible hold in the game, it is infinitely better than anything else out there for PvP.

You are bitter because your "Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it" button is going bye bye.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice assumption, but no, I don't even PvP with my Stalker.

I just thought that we finally have what the devs gave us, something new and different, and then poof, it's gonna be turned into something "normal." There was a difference between me being upset it'll be changed into a normal hold and me being "bitter" because my ""Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it."

I was never adverse to the idea of making it weaker than usual becase it was obviously overpowered, I'd just thought it would outperform the normal Holds.

KingSnake

07-27-2006, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Look, cut me some slack, you seem a reasonable guy and I'm not saying no no no you can't fix it. My first post in this thread said I saw it comming, but I hope they give peolpe stuck in the pool the option to leave it. There is nothing in these pools that justifies the fact that we are stuck with them. Especially when they're apparently not finished working on them well after going live.

Lets look at it as it shall be for the stalker holds after this change, GW vs BS.

Ghost Widow: acc: 100%, range 80', cost 10.66, activation 2.17 recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 33.6 negative damage

Black Scorpion: acc:105%, range 60', cost 10.66, activation 2, recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 50% run fly and jump speed for 15 seconds 50% recharge rate reduction for 15 seconds disable fly.

So 30 damage and 20' range vs all of that. Mako's isn't much better but has an anti fly built in. The mu lets you stack end drain. Ghost Widows goes from easily the best, to the worst. How many people still have whirlwind in their builds these days? Somewhat less than had it in it's heyday.

The rest of my replies are spent trying to explain that yes I know it's powerful but it's not an instant I win in pvp if you have a clue. Heroes demonstrate that constantly. Would everyone take it if it was left alone? Probably almost everyone so it does have to go (I get that). (Strange how pretty much every scrapper and tanker I meet in RV has FA eh? :).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, being stuck in your PPP is a whole nother argument, and one i'd agree with you on. I really think being locked in to them isn't the greatest idea, but it's not my call. I just don't want them wasting time coming up with a way to let the GW people remake there choice. If they were to do that, theyy should do it for everyone. And I don't think they will.

And the REASON i don't think they should get to repick is this. The ONLY people who can complain about this change are PvPers, who knew the power was unbrakable, and wantted an unfair edge in PvP. Anyone else, how took the power for concept reasons, for style, or to run GW's story arch, they are totally uneffected by this change. Only the people who wanted to exploit an unbrakeable hold will be really adversily effected. And I have a hard time mustering up sympith for them, i'm sorry. (not saying you are one of them people, just to be clear.)

But like i said, if they make PPP's respecable to everyone, i'm all for that, but just for these guys, no, i think not.

But should they make a habit of "twicking" these powers, they really NEED to make them respecable. Somehow.

*** and as for FA, yeah, I'd consider it a problem power too. I fully expect SOMETHING to be done eventually, but this is an example of poor forsight on the dev's part, not a bug, like GW's hold.***

KidQwik

07-27-2006, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a dev, but my bet is that the animation will continue for as long as the break free isn't used. If there is no break free, the power and the animation subsists until it expires. If a break free is used the animation dissipates as the power is negated.

I can hardly see them allowing the animation to continue when the power is negated by counter measures.

KidQwik

07-27-2006, 01:15 PM

It's ok if the break free works and they drop on their face to ground. I just don't want the animation to go away for those who don't have a break free. I want to spin them till they r dizzy and puke. :)

LivingHellfire

07-27-2006, 01:34 PM

On their face... probably not, but likely will land on their feet as though from a short fall.

Abigail Frost

07-27-2006, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

And where are the numbers wrong? The problem is that no hold in the game is supposed to be unresistible. Breakfrees not working if you are caught in Soul Storm is not working as intended.

And I have no problem with Soul Storm outperforming, say, Ice Corr holds. But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold. Currently with Soul Storm being the only unresistible hold in the game, it is infinitely better than anything else out there for PvP.

You are bitter because your "Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it" button is going bye bye.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice assumption, but no, I don't even PvP with my Stalker.

I just thought that we finally have what the devs gave us, something new and different, and then poof, it's gonna be turned into something "normal." There was a difference between me being upset it'll be changed into a normal hold and me being "bitter" because my ""Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it."

I was never adverse to the idea of making it weaker than usual becase it was obviously overpowered, I'd just thought it would outperform the normal Holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all I was rude and snarky in my previous post and I apologise for that.

Secondly, you said above that you thought it would outperform the normal holds. What is your baseline for a "normal hold"? Ice Blast's freeze ray or Ice Control's Block of Ice?

I am of the opinion that no PPP power should outperform an equivalent power of the AT that the power is optimised for. Dark Obliteration does not outperform a Corr's AoE. Dark Embrace for a Dom provides less resistance than it does for a Brute. Soul Storm should not outperform a Dom's ST hold.

Castle

07-27-2006, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.

Valeria

07-27-2006, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Matt Miller:

The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character

That and having also read this: Talkin' 'bout Soul Storm

(relevant part of the interview inserted here):

Will the new power sets unbalance the game a bit to the Villains favor? What is your favorite new power set and abilities?

We certainly hope that there is a balance maintained between the two games, but sometimes it’s like comparing apples to oranges. At the end of the day you have to realize they are both food, with some commonalities like they both have calories and sugar content. We have to play with those commonalities to make sure that things remain balanced between the two games.

My personal favorite Patron Power Pool would be Ghost Widow’s. The Soul Storm ability is simply too awesome for words.
All this made me think that you know, maybe it wasn't a [censored] bug and it was actually just a cool power. Powerful in pvp: Yes. Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so we should blame Matt Miller for this power making it into the game in it's current state? Can I have HIS e-mail address so I can send him my Demo of being "pwn'd" in RV by some obnoxious Stalker who thinks he's so awesome for holding be while I pop 6 breakfrees only to have him AS me and dance over my body. Oh yea thanks Matt Miller... Thank you very much.

The_Foo

07-27-2006, 04:00 PM

Note to Castle: proceed to QA department. Facilitate communication. Terminate hostilities.

Twoflower

07-27-2006, 06:01 PM

KatanaFury

07-27-2006, 07:26 PM

So far what I gather is that the bug is caused because the animation is basically a prolonged knockdown so a breakfree cannot be used?

Is it possible to just allow breakfrees to be used while knocked down (since they can be used while held etc.)? Even if breakfrees would then be able to be used to negate a knockdown, if you were able to set its knockdown protection to like 1 second all it would be able to do would get you up quicker normally.

I don't think that makes sense but I'm just thinking out loud - because I would be so unhapy if they have to change the animation. I'd rather it just be an uber-hold ;)

rjs_boy

07-27-2006, 07:40 PM

Break Frees provide KB protection already...

SmokeSignal

07-27-2006, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played a lot of different games and the bug list here doesn't seem to be any larger then they are elsewhere, at least in my experience. There will always be bugs, both big and small, no matter how good their QA departments are at either Cryptic or NCSoft, and who knows what exactly needs to be done to correct the seemingly easily caught ones that squeak their way through. If it's not destroying your ability to enjoy the game, I'd vote for patience.

Quickshadow

07-27-2006, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd vote for patience

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this "patience" you speak of? I cannot find it in my 'Forum Posting for Dummies' book. Please explain. Or sum up. ;)

rjs_boy

07-27-2006, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so we should blame Matt Miller for this power making it into the game in it's current state? Can I have HIS e-mail address so I can send him my Demo of being "pwn'd" in RV by some obnoxious Stalker who thinks he's so awesome for holding be while I pop 6 breakfrees only to have him AS me and dance over my body. Oh yea thanks Matt Miller... Thank you very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO...you too a DEMO of you getting whupped in PvP....LMAO!!!

Heck, by your post hysteria, we should all be forced to have only brawl in pvp. That way everything is fair and balanced and you wouldn't be able to get a Demo of you getting "pwn'd" by a stalker....unless you really weren't paying attention.

On a more serious note, it's a known issue, and they are fixing it. So in the meantime DEAL WITH IT.

There are PLENTY of outstanding problems in the CoH/V world, not limited to a single power in PvP. You think MasterMinds are at all happy with the Schtuff that Issue 7 brought them? Those have been known issues since before Issue 7 went live. We've dealt with it, and they are slowly fixing the problems. (nother topic nother thread).

Bugs happen, they get addressed and fixed. In the mean time the players have to DEAL with them. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

The_Foo

07-27-2006, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played a lot of different games and the bug list here doesn't seem to be any larger then they are elsewhere, at least in my experience. There will always be bugs, both big and small, no matter how good their QA departments are at either Cryptic or NCSoft, and who knows what exactly needs to be done to correct the seemingly easily caught ones that squeak their way through. If it's not destroying your ability to enjoy the game, I'd vote for patience.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

(At this juncture, it's standard operating to bring up the +7 enemy debacle on the internal test server, the -50% Unyielding DEF, and then move onto the slew of other issues, some of which the Devs have apologised for, and then vowed to do better with in future...)

Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no conmensurate fix to the sets.

I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

KatanaFury

07-27-2006, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Break Frees provide KB protection already...

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay then, no problem. Just make em useable while knocked down.

I never use em so I don't even know what they exactly do... All I know is the basic hold, disorient sleep :D

All I ever use em for so it doesn't really matter :p

Pseudotron

07-27-2006, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Break Frees provide KB protection already...

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay then, no problem. Just make em useable while knocked down.

I never use em so I don't even know what they exactly do... All I know is the basic hold, disorient sleep :D

All I ever use em for so it doesn't really matter :p

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No they dont. Its just mez effects.

SuperSilver

07-27-2006, 09:41 PM

My blaster has used them to prevent Knockback from Siege/Luminary and the CoT Earthquakes.

SmokeSignal

07-27-2006, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no conmensurate fix to the sets.

I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet I'm still able to log into every one of my many many characters and have a great time playing this game. You seem to be the one with the defeatist attitude, or at least a very negative one. I tend to keep a rather positive one, myself. :)

Also, pointing out that the test server population caught bugs that made it through QA doesn't surprise me when you think about the active test population. Might make for a good argument if we had any idea how many bugs are caught by the QA teams. Then you'd have enough information to make a valid ratio. Until then you're just numbering yourself among the many that remember all the mistakes and seemingly log them just to chuck them out in threads that make it convenient.

If I've garnered the wrong impression, I apologize. But, that's the way it comes across to me.

Retrogression

07-27-2006, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

Sith_Rose

07-27-2006, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Break Frees provide KB protection already...

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay then, no problem. Just make em useable while knocked down.

I never use em so I don't even know what they exactly do... All I know is the basic hold, disorient sleep :D

All I ever use em for so it doesn't really matter :p

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No they dont. Its just mez effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go read the description of your Breakfrees again. They do KB protection these days too. :) Yes, this is new.

MothTwiceborn_NA

07-28-2006, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]

well, that would explain a *lot*...

Synthetic CK

07-28-2006, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Break Frees provide KB protection already...

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay then, no problem. Just make em useable while knocked down.

I never use em so I don't even know what they exactly do... All I know is the basic hold, disorient sleep :D

All I ever use em for so it doesn't really matter :p

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No they dont. Its just mez effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go read the description of your Breakfrees again. They do KB protection these days too. :) Yes, this is new.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the original point was you can't use inspirations during the actual knocking back and that part of the code is bugged in soul storm.

Lightbender

07-28-2006, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure your keeping in mind that, for reasons of your own design, we can't respec out of our Patron Powers. Changing animation or even the fact Break Frees now work may have changed the Patron Pool someone would have chosen in the first place.

Changing anything on any Patron Power, even for "balance", should be an indication that you need to seriously look into a method allowing us to change Patrons after one is chosen.

JulioThom70

07-28-2006, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure your keeping in mind that, for reasons of your own design, we can't respec out of our Patron Powers. Changing animation or even the fact Break Frees now work may have changed the Patron Pool someone would have chosen in the first place.

Changing anything on any Patron Power, even for "balance", should be an indication that you need to seriously look into a method allowing us to change Patrons after one is chosen.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

QFE.

THIS is why un-respecable Power Pools are such a bad idea. My main didn't take GW, but if I did and the powers got changed AFTER I chose GW, I'd be mighty upset.

IMHO, this is worse than the bugged Smoke Grenade of I1-I2. At least you could drop the 'nades in a Respec, if you thought they weren't effective anymore.

At minimum, the ones affected should get Respec, since that hold may have been the only reason they chose the power.

Really though, PPPs being un-respecable has gotta go.

HacknSlash

07-28-2006, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure your keeping in mind that, for reasons of your own design, we can't respec out of our Patron Powers. Changing animation or even the fact Break Frees now work may have changed the Patron Pool someone would have chosen in the first place.

Changing anything on any Patron Power, even for "balance", should be an indication that you need to seriously look into a method allowing us to change Patrons after one is chosen.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

QFE.

THIS is why un-respecable Power Pools are such a bad idea. My main didn't take GW, but if I did and the powers got changed AFTER I chose GW, I'd be mighty upset.

IMHO, this is worse than the bugged Smoke Grenade of I1-I2. At least you could drop the 'nades in a Respec, if you thought they weren't effective anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can drop Soul Storm in a respec as well.

[ QUOTE ]
At minimum, the ones affected should get Respec, since that hold may have been the only reason they chose the power.

Really though, PPPs being un-respecable has gotta go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your line of reasoning, I don't get why you're limiting this to the PPP's.

The_RaZ

07-28-2006, 05:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, because Corruptors really need a hold that looks way cooler than any hold a Dominator gets...

Its so irritating to hold a boss, then some Corruptor hits it with this and sends it on a rolecoster ride for everyone to go "Oooooo, nice power!" :p

Wooden_Replica

07-28-2006, 06:44 AM

while your at it, any chance of a dark control set ;-).
The coolest single target hold in the game, and a dominator doesn't have it;-), the injustice!!!

Iodine

07-28-2006, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can drop Soul Storm in a respec as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know what he meant. The ability to respec out of that epic pool and into another should be allowed.

I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to potentially go through all 4 patron story arcs to unlock their power sets. As long as a respec is available to the player, and you finished the arc ... you should have access to that pool.

There is neither balance nor fun in being heavy handed with the PPP choices. The two arcs I've gone through so far share similar betrayal themes. It's not like your allegiance to the patron was MEANT to be permanent in the first place ... hence the choice of powers should be just as ambiguous.

Tundara

07-28-2006, 11:01 AM

Personally I don't like how we have so many times we can respec, period. It is cool and all having to do a trial to earn the right to respec, but afterwords I would like to be able to at any time, for a hefty inf cost, be able to respec my build. Sometimes a power gets changed in a patch like this and it no longer works or fits a build. Other times a power that was borked gets fixed and now it would work for my build. Other MMOs let you alter your character unlimitited times, why does CoX have to limit you?

The way respecing is currently done doesn't encourage experimentation with builds and playstyle. Right now everyone has to go to the test server to try out a new build before making it permanent on the Live servers.

Just a little something that gets on my nerves, but isn't a huge deal really.

As for this Ghost Widow stuff, what is wrong with them making the power work how they intended it to? No hold should be able to prevent you from using break frees. But for the love of all that is holy, keep the animation! It is the biggest draw in me having over 3/4 of my current builds going GW! :D

The_Foo

07-28-2006, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no commensurate fix to the sets.

I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet I'm still able to log into every one of my many many characters and have a great time playing this game. You seem to be the one with the defeatist attitude, or at least a very negative one. I tend to keep a rather positive one, myself. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure “defeatist” means what you think it does? I’m determined to hold the QA team to account for letting things slip through far too often. You’re resigned to accepting things as they are. How am I defeatist for not being able to play a character due to a bug?

And, you know, your statement would make me very happy if my enjoyment of the game was derived from you being alright, but sadly, selfishly, I only garner enjoyment from playing it myself.

Seriously: Do you hear yourself? “I can log in, so what’s the problem?” Who gives a rat’s sewer-drenched tail about you? Go tell the people in this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5802412&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5#Post60920805802412) that they’re being defeatist because you can log in and have a great time. See if you get as polite a response as I’ve offered.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, pointing out that the test server population caught bugs that made it through QA doesn't surprise me when you think about the active test population. Might make for a good argument if we had any idea how many bugs are caught by the QA teams. Then you'd have enough information to make a valid ratio. Until then you're just numbering yourself among the many that remember all the mistakes and seemingly log them just to chuck them out in threads that make it convenient.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn’t matter what population difference there is. Simple things like whether a power is applying the appropriate debuff or not aren’t reliant upon large-scale testing.

We aren’t talking little text error, or maybe something lasting for 3.5 seconds instead of 3. A proper QA suite should have tools set up to help them notice things like, say, glaring decimal errors (50 instead of 5) or, y’know, if you’re fighting +7s and doing just dandy, common sense dictating that something's up.

In the end, though, I don’t care what you think. There’s plenty of evidence that something’s rotten in the state of Denmark, whether you want to admit to having seen the ghost of dead king’s walking around or not.

The_Foo

07-28-2006, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]
So, again, the question is: Are the Cryptic coders just so painfully bad that QA is overworked, or is QA just not invested in the game enough?

Or maybe they just don't have enough staff.

UberGuy

07-28-2006, 12:44 PM

I suspect that:

* For a long time QA did not play like many "in the wild" players did. And especially not like many forumites did.
* Everyone we can see from Cryptic apparently has a very, very full schedule.
* Bugs are prioritized in ways we really, truly do not like much. See Positron's recent comment that bugs caught internally by NCsoft and Cryptic are always prioritized first. (I imagine there's an exception process for this, but still.)
* The test and production environments are sufficiently different that some bugs go untested until they hit live. (Global chat bug)

None of these things are excuses. They're just things that impact quality of delivered product and system stability.

Jagged

07-28-2006, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the policy then that is lunacy. Bugs should be priorities on their importance regardless of where they come from.

The way some bugs have been reintroduced suggests to me a weak testing methodology, poor version control or someone messed up CVS ;)

BellaStrega

07-28-2006, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the policy then that is lunacy. Bugs should be priorities on their importance regardless of where they come from.

The way some bugs have been reintroduced suggests to me a weak testing methodology, poor version control or someone messed up CVS ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect it's a change. There was a time when you could take a bug and evidence of that bug to QA and get the bug addressed fairly quickly.

It seems to point to a lack of sufficient staff now, but also some flaws in the QA process.

Generic_Past

07-28-2006, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the policy then that is lunacy. Bugs should be priorities on their importance regardless of where they come from.

The way some bugs have been reintroduced suggests to me a weak testing methodology, poor version control or someone messed up CVS ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect it's a change. There was a time when you could take a bug and evidence of that bug to QA and get the bug addressed fairly quickly.

It seems to point to a lack of sufficient staff now, but also some flaws in the QA process.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOWWOOWMMMMMMMMM

BellaStrega

07-28-2006, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens because bugs reported only on the forums are prioritized below all bugs found by QA - apparently this is required by NCSoft and was noted in a Dev post recently (I think it was Positron's, yep, found it (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hvh&Number=6040291&bodypre v=#Post6040291)). They basically have to work on their lunch hour or on a weekend to fix anything players find, it seems...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the policy then that is lunacy. Bugs should be priorities on their importance regardless of where they come from.

The way some bugs have been reintroduced suggests to me a weak testing methodology, poor version control or someone messed up CVS ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect it's a change. There was a time when you could take a bug and evidence of that bug to QA and get the bug addressed fairly quickly.

It seems to point to a lack of sufficient staff now, but also some flaws in the QA process.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOWWOOWMMMMMMMMM

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that NCSoft recently laid off several QA people on their side...

Also, it's not "Doom" to point out that the current QA is just plain insufficient. Nor is it "Doom" to point out that the process used to work.

SmokeSignal

07-29-2006, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no commensurate fix to the sets.

I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet I'm still able to log into every one of my many many characters and have a great time playing this game. You seem to be the one with the defeatist attitude, or at least a very negative one. I tend to keep a rather positive one, myself. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure “defeatist” means what you think it does? I’m determined to hold the QA team to account for letting things slip through far too often. You’re resigned to accepting things as they are. How am I defeatist for not being able to play a character due to a bug?

And, you know, your statement would make me very happy if my enjoyment of the game was derived from you being alright, but sadly, selfishly, I only garner enjoyment from playing it myself.

Seriously: Do you hear yourself? “I can log in, so what’s the problem?” Who gives a rat’s sewer-drenched tail about you? Go tell the people in this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5802412&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5#Post60920805802412) that they’re being defeatist because you can log in and have a great time. See if you get as polite a response as I’ve offered.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, pointing out that the test server population caught bugs that made it through QA doesn't surprise me when you think about the active test population. Might make for a good argument if we had any idea how many bugs are caught by the QA teams. Then you'd have enough information to make a valid ratio. Until then you're just numbering yourself among the many that remember all the mistakes and seemingly log them just to chuck them out in threads that make it convenient.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn’t matter what population difference there is. Simple things like whether a power is applying the appropriate debuff or not aren’t reliant upon large-scale testing.

We aren’t talking little text error, or maybe something lasting for 3.5 seconds instead of 3. A proper QA suite should have tools set up to help them notice things like, say, glaring decimal errors (50 instead of 5) or, y’know, if you’re fighting +7s and doing just dandy, common sense dictating that something's up.

In the end, though, I don’t care what you think. There’s plenty of evidence that something’s rotten in the state of Denmark, whether you want to admit to having seen the ghost of dead king’s walking around or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say everything regarding their process was peachy happy sunshine la-la land, nor did I say that the things wrong should be left unfixed. I just don't think that you and others whining about their internal processes makes one tiny bit of difference. The process will change or stay the same, regardless of whether you like it or not. To think otherwise is to allow yourself a few more notches on the importance totem then you're really worthy of. There's a big difference between being resigned to accepting things as they are and being patient enough to wait for the fixes to come down the pipe.

Seriously: Do you hear yourself? My point of view is invalid because you do not agree with it, yet yours is somehow visionary to the point that it garners more importance. I'll dance a forum ballet with you all day if you really want to, although, if you truly don't care what I think it's a bit odd you take the time to respond to me at all.

Lightbender

07-29-2006, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As for this Ghost Widow stuff, what is wrong with them making the power work how they intended it to?

[/ QUOTE ]

How are we supposed to know if a power works as "they intended it to"? Heck, we've had things change even though they worked "as intended".

[ QUOTE ]
No hold should be able to prevent you from using break frees.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree, to a point. If a hold can't "hold", that's the point? But that is way off topic.

[ QUOTE ]
But for the love of all that is holy, keep the animation! It is the biggest draw in me having over 3/4 of my current builds going GW! :D

[/ QUOTE ]
And if they did change the animation? What if you now found that GWs powers had a fluffy pink glow around them or something? You might have picked her powers not on the basis of the statistics on a spreadsheet but rather for the visual effects. Take away the visual effects and then what? Ignore your Patron Powers? You can't go to someone else. And that is the point.

The_Foo

07-29-2006, 08:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no commensurate fix to the sets.

I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet I'm still able to log into every one of my many many characters and have a great time playing this game. You seem to be the one with the defeatist attitude, or at least a very negative one. I tend to keep a rather positive one, myself. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure “defeatist” means what you think it does? I’m determined to hold the QA team to account for letting things slip through far too often. You’re resigned to accepting things as they are. How am I defeatist for not being able to play a character due to a bug?

And, you know, your statement would make me very happy if my enjoyment of the game was derived from you being alright, but sadly, selfishly, I only garner enjoyment from playing it myself.

Seriously: Do you hear yourself? “I can log in, so what’s the problem?” Who gives a rat’s sewer-drenched tail about you? Go tell the people in this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5802412&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5#Post60920805802412) that they’re being defeatist because you can log in and have a great time. See if you get as polite a response as I’ve offered.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, pointing out that the test server population caught bugs that made it through QA doesn't surprise me when you think about the active test population. Might make for a good argument if we had any idea how many bugs are caught by the QA teams. Then you'd have enough information to make a valid ratio. Until then you're just numbering yourself among the many that remember all the mistakes and seemingly log them just to chuck them out in threads that make it convenient.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn’t matter what population difference there is. Simple things like whether a power is applying the appropriate debuff or not aren’t reliant upon large-scale testing.

We aren’t talking little text error, or maybe something lasting for 3.5 seconds instead of 3. A proper QA suite should have tools set up to help them notice things like, say, glaring decimal errors (50 instead of 5) or, y’know, if you’re fighting +7s and doing just dandy, common sense dictating that something's up.

In the end, though, I don’t care what you think. There’s plenty of evidence that something’s rotten in the state of Denmark, whether you want to admit to having seen the ghost of dead king’s walking around or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say everything regarding their process was peachy happy sunshine la-la land, nor did I say that the things wrong should be left unfixed. I just don't think that you and others whining about their internal processes makes one tiny bit of difference. The process will change or stay the same, regardless of whether you like it or not. To think otherwise is to allow yourself a few more notches on the importance totem then you're really worthy of. There's a big difference between being resigned to accepting things as they are and being patient enough to wait for the fixes to come down the pipe.

Seriously: Do you hear yourself? My point of view is invalid because you do not agree with it, yet yours is somehow visionary to the point that it garners more importance.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said your point of view was invalid. I never really *said* anything about it. I will now, though: It's shortsighted, and completely selfish. Understand now, I'm not talking about whether or not you think Cryptic's QA is hunky-dory, or if they're doing a terrible job. I'm talking about your, "Well, I can log in, so what's your problem?" statement.

You're welcome to think that the QA department is whatever, just as I'm welcome to take them to task over it where I can, but I do take objection to your "I'm a positive person and I'm not complaining because I can log in, maybe you should stop being so defeatist! :)" condescension.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll dance a forum ballet with you all day if you really want to, although, if you truly don't care what I think it's a bit odd you take the time to respond to me at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes even the gods dance with mortals. :)

SmokeSignal

07-29-2006, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I do take objection to your "I'm a positive person and I'm not complaining because I can log in, maybe you should stop being so defeatist! " condescension.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wasn't being condescending. I was responding to this:
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no commensurate fix to the sets. I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of people playing the game that are still enjoying it just fine, even with the problems you described. However, since I don't like to speak for other people, I try to use only my own experience as an example. If that came across in a way I did not intend, then I apologize. I try to state my opinion and have respect for others with an opposing view point at the same time. It doesn't always broadcast that way.

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes even the gods dance with mortals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm good like that. ;)

lucas

07-29-2006, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The process will change or stay the same

[/ QUOTE ]

Smoke is so profound.
:)

SmokeSignal

07-29-2006, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The process will change or stay the same

[/ QUOTE ]

Smoke is so profound.
:)

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, sir. I keep company with you. Such things cannot be helped. :)

SmokeSignal

07-29-2006, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, to a point. If a hold can't "hold", that's the point? But that is way off topic.

[/ QUOTE ]
A status effect should always have a counter. The hold is still holding, it's just subject to bf's like any other hold. And that's the way it should be.

The_Foo

07-29-2006, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I do take objection to your "I'm a positive person and I'm not complaining because I can log in, maybe you should stop being so defeatist! " condescension.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wasn't being condescending. I was responding to this:
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no commensurate fix to the sets. I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of people playing the game that are still enjoying it just fine, even with the problems you described. However, since I don't like to speak for other people, I try to use only my own experience as an example. If that came across in a way I did not intend, then I apologize. I try to state my opinion and have respect for others with an opposing view point at the same time. It doesn't always broadcast that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
It sounded condescending and dismissive, like many of the "I'm okay, so all is okay" posts.

Cheerfully withdrawn!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes even the gods dance with mortals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm good like that. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]
Shall we foxtrot now?

SmokeSignal

07-29-2006, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shall we foxtrot now?

[/ QUOTE ]
*daytime soap piano music plays in the background*

Foo.. I.. I.. I LOVE YOU! :eek:

:D

El_Nino

07-29-2006, 07:29 PM

glad to know that this is overpowered, but IW, power boost, conserve power, TF, earth's embrace, hibernate, power build up, PFF, FoN isn't. I could've been fooled.

Dalantia

07-29-2006, 09:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
conserve power

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that the melee ATs you probably think should get the pool that contains Conserve Power already get said power natively, you will not see it on those two ATs.

The_Foo

07-30-2006, 09:50 AM

Hibernate's overpowered?

BellaStrega

07-30-2006, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
glad to know that this is overpowered, but IW, power boost, conserve power, TF, earth's embrace, hibernate, power build up, PFF, FoN isn't. I could've been fooled.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be the first time you've said something I violently disagree with.

The rest of your list provokes varying but lesser degrees of disagreement.

Eldagore

07-30-2006, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Inescapable does not mean unresistable. If you have mez resistance from your primary/secondary, a buff, or a break free it doesn't work. If you have a kinetics user around, ID will knock you out of it.

I had to beat GW using the exact same power on me to get it. I managed to do it solo even though her version blows through integration like it isn't there, you just have to use your head.

It's not supposed to be a hold, exactly like it's from an EPP - it's supposed to be like Ghost Widows just without the hundreds of points of damage. If you read the hype it'd be like an EPP but actually more powerful and it actually is - imagine my surprise.

That you lack the imagination or ability to come up with a counter to it is your problem, not mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly, peoples lack of imagination is what caused many of the nerfs of the last year. Once again a pvp issue will cause a change in a power, pissing off many players whom have grown to like it and are now forced to change.

before you post, would be flamers, you cant tell me that the "planned fix(nerf)" was because the pve npcs in the late game cried foul to the dev team.

I dont have the power in question, nor a toon on the villains side high enough to worry about which patron poole to take. However, this is simply another "par for the course" on this dev teams track record. Not to sound like I am dev bashing as hindsight is always 20/20, but it is completly obvious by now to everyone that pvp controls the future of this game. CoX has gone down the road so many others have taken and is quickly losing its shine in pve.

SmokeSignal

07-30-2006, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
before you post, would be flamers, you cant tell me that the "planned fix(nerf)" was because the pve npcs in the late game cried foul to the dev team.

[/ QUOTE ]
PvP actually helps find bugs like this that may not have come to light otherwise. As you say, an NPC isn't likely to alert us to something not working the way it was supposed to.

Explain, please, how it's a nerf to fix something that wasn't intended to function in a specific way? This isn't like some of the other changes that have been made. The hold, once applied and in effect, is essentially inescapable. You're trying to say that that's the way it should be? :confused:

Eldagore

07-30-2006, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before you post, would be flamers, you cant tell me that the "planned fix(nerf)" was because the pve npcs in the late game cried foul to the dev team.

[/ QUOTE ]
PvP actually helps find bugs like this that may not have come to light otherwise. As you say, an NPC isn't likely to alert us to something not working the way it was supposed to.

Explain, please, how it's a nerf to fix something that wasn't intended to function in a specific way? This isn't like some of the other changes that have been made. The hold, once applied and in effect, is essentially inescapable. You're trying to say that that's the way it should be? :confused:

[/ QUOTE ]

And are you going to say that the internal testing crew never used the power once on an npc mob before giving it the ok to go to live? Who are you to say it wasnt working as intended when they tested it for pve? Like others have said, why cant an "epic" patron power be relativley powerful? Is a single target hold that has to get through mobs mez protection and actually has a good duration really overpowered for pve?

By your logic, pvp pointed out that all the tank primaries were to strong, travel powers needed supression, controlers needed less control and more dmg, etc etc. I agree with this logic. pvp certainly did point these out. problem is the majority of the playerbase did not see an issue, nor did the dev team for over a year prior.

El_Nino

07-30-2006, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
glad to know that this is overpowered, but IW, power boost, conserve power, TF, earth's embrace, hibernate, power build up, PFF, FoN isn't. I could've been fooled.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be the first time you've said something I violently disagree with.

The rest of your list provokes varying but lesser degrees of disagreement.

[/ QUOTE ]

name one thing in a patron pool besides webnades that are more useful. controllers can get hibernate as a tier 1 epic, which is better than a lot of the useless tier 3 pets that most of the villains get.

and yes, i am speaking from a pvp perspective. the reason why soul storm is getting changed is because of pvp reasons, so I'm talking pvp here. I can assure you though, that anyone who pvp's will agree that hero epic powers outshine villain PPP's by a longshot. I can speak for it myself, having 4 level 50 heroes also.

and no i wasn't saying anything in particular was overpowered. What I was trying to get at was how underpowered the PPP's are compared to well, pretty much any of the decent-good EPP's available to heroes.

Dalantia

07-30-2006, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly, peoples lack of imagination is what caused many of the nerfs of the last year. Once again a pvp issue will cause a change in a power, pissing off many players whom have grown to like it and are now forced to change.

[/ QUOTE ]
My question is.. how exactly is PvE going to be nerfed? Last I knew, Breakfrees were a PC-exclusve bit.

Eldagore

07-30-2006, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly, peoples lack of imagination is what caused many of the nerfs of the last year. Once again a pvp issue will cause a change in a power, pissing off many players whom have grown to like it and are now forced to change.

[/ QUOTE ]
My question is.. how exactly is PvE going to be nerfed? Last I knew, Breakfrees were a PC-exclusve bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on the implemntation of the fix. if castle were in charge, new code would be written and a break free would work on this power the same as any other hold. Castle is the man. However, Castle is not in charge, he simply communicates with the players here more often then others and provides solid ideas for fix/changes etc to the devs. if he is very persistant and gains the support of someone in charge on this, then the fix will have no pve effect. I for one, have doubts that this solution is 100% backed. changing the animation to the grav trollers hold animation or some other simple cop out seems as likely as not to be the fix here.

Theres just been to many "fast solutions" that end up getting different solutions a little bit down the road for me to have confidence that the first time they will get it right. hell, its already on live, so its past that already. tanker super strength rage changes come to mind here.

Another aspect is the inability to spec out of the power if you did take it for pve or pvp. Most agree here that no respec is teh suck. The point still stands that players will be pissed off. So what if they took it for pvp bercause it was good? Fire tanks were everywhere and all took burn a few issues back. Burn was powerful, many chose it and fiery aura for that reason alone. And they were all pissed when the dev team took it away.

It is a similar situation. You can spec out of burn patch with a fire tank, but that ruined a lot of concepts etc. Cant respec out of a primary power set. So, learn to like whats left over. Same with this patron poole. Learn to like whats left over people, you cant spec out of it.