Aim & Build Up Different in the Prima Guide

[Robotech_Master]

I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.

According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.

What's up with that?

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.

According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.

What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

That changes based on AT. For instance Scrappers and Blasters do get 100% damage from BU. As for the to-hit numbers, we as players notoriously overestimate the value on to-hit buffs. People were quoting FA (me included) at 33% when it is really 18%. Massive difference.

Basically only a few posts (e.g. Arcanaville, Stupid_Fanboy, Starsman, etc.) should be trusted with statistical stats like that.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.

According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.

What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

BU for CoV ATs has been known to be 80% damage boost for a very long time. Only two ATs get a +100% boost BU: Scrappers and Blasters.

I can't make sense of the toHit numbers howver, based on what we think is going on due to Iakona's data mining.

Using Iakona's tables I get that the damage buff from Aim for a Corruptor should be 42.5%, which matches, but that the toHit buff should be 68%.

Maybe they changed the toHit scale for Aim in I7? Iakona has it at 8.0. Maybe they lowered it to 5.0? Or maybe that's just a typo in the guide.

Edit - I am thinking Iakona's sources for the buff scales of Aim are a dev post. There's no indication he found them anywhere in game.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.

According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.

What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still going through the manual carefully, but it seems there is the potential for scale errors in the numbers. For example, power pool defenses have actual quoted numbers, but they vary in strength from AT to AT, and so *cannot* be the values quoted for everyone.

As to BU and Aim, still thinking about that.

[Mr_Jaytastic]

Im a little wary about some of the numbers. Ive heard of typos cropping up here and there.

As for build up and aim being different for each AT, I knew that, but...20% tohit buff for stalkers with buildup? Seems a bit low.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Im a little wary about some of the numbers. Ive heard of typos cropping up here and there.

As for build up and aim being different for each AT, I knew that, but...20% tohit buff for stalkers with buildup? Seems a bit low.

[/ QUOTE ]

But... based on what? :)

A 20% toHit boost is actually fairly tremendous. With one accuracy SO it would cap you against everything up to +3, and would put you at 90% toHit on a +4. If you slotted it for toHit, you could cap even +4s and maybe +5 (didn't check that).

For PvP, as the toHitBuff haters will point out, that still exceeds the base toggle+passive benefits of all the defense-based armor sets.

[RAZ0R]

on this note, I went through all the corruptor buff/debuff %s, and it seems A LOT of numbers are different to what's listed in Sherksilver's Hero Builder. While Sherksilver has been known to be missing/inaccurate info in some cases, I was surprised to see so many differences.

eg What is the resistance given by /thermal's shields?

Sherksilver lists as 20% for main dmg types, 10% cold
Prima Guide claims it's 15% for main dmg types, 7.5% cold

eg What is the resistance given by /cold's shields?

Sherksilver lists as 15% for fire/cold
Prima Guide claims it's 9.37% cold, 7.5% fire


eg What is the resist debuff given by Disruption Field?

Sherksilver lists it as a minor -11.25%
Prima Guide claims it's a whopping -30%


There are plenty more examples. Which source is correct, if any?

[Roy_Lyca]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically only a few posts (e.g. Arcanaville, Stupid_Fanboy, Starsman, etc.) should be trusted with statistical stats like that.

[/ QUOTE ] QFT
[ QUOTE ]
For PvP, as the toHitBuff haters will point out, that still exceeds the base toggle+passive benefits of all the defense-based armor sets.

[/ QUOTE ] Also QFT.

[UberGuy]

Always, always consider the numbers in the builders suspect. I love SherkSilver's planner and use it exclusively, but the numbers in there are very frequently wrong. I don't say that to denegrate SS in any way - he makes that program and its database updates for free in his free time, and he relies on players to provide him with updates which may or may not be good and which he may or may not have time to verify.

That's not to say you should trust the prima guide 100% either. It has some clear problems (as pointed out by Arcanaville for the pool powers - I hadn't even noticed they reported them that way). However, they also have a decent track record.

Of the two, I'd trust the prima guide more. For now.

[Castle]

Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.

I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.

[Dysmal]

Is there a listing somewhere of all the AT Modifiers and what they apply to? I'm not finding anything like that in the guide so far.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a listing somewhere of all the AT Modifiers and what they apply to? I'm not finding anything like that in the guide so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check Iakona's Power Standardization thread in the Player Guides forum. It's all in there. It's a big thread, but it's in there. :)

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, does Aim have the same magnitude for both damage and toHit buff? (And is that true of the power for other ATs, or is the Corruptor version "special"?)

[Robotech_Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.

I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.

[/ QUOTE ]
Castle, how can the numbers be "accurate" if, in order to get the applicable values, we need to apply another calculation to them--and the guide is missing, not only the necessary figures we need to do the calculations, but any indication whatsoever that an additional calculation is even required? The purpose of a guide is supposed to be to keep us from having to look anywhere else for information. If we can't get accurate figures out of the Prima guide without consulting someone's board guide for the modifiers, then how is that more convenient than just checking a board guide in the first place? And how does it help the people who don't even know they need to look?

And anyhow, that doesn't address the question which was the subject of this thread: Are the values for Aim and Build Up different from what we'd been told they were, if so, why?

(For that matter, why are Energy Melee for Brutes and Dark Melee and Dark Aura for Stalkers missing from the guide update altogether?)

[iakona_NA]

I'm confused about the way you guys listed mez powers. Here's an example from Char in Fire Control for Dominators:
[ QUOTE ]
EFFECTS: 7.95 Fire damage every 1 second for 5 seconds; 100% chance for a 12-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only; 100% chance for an 8-second Hold of 5.96 strength versus players only; Domination—100% chance for an 18-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only; Domination—100% chance for a 12-second unresistible Hold of 5.96 strength versus players only.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now, from what I recall, all dominator and controller single-target holds are Magnitude 3, regardless of level, and it's the duration that changes by level. That doesn't seem to match up with your "4.47 strength" in the guide (which is 3 * 1.49, the level 50 mez modifier for dominators). Shouldn't it be the 8 seconds that's multiplied by 1.49, for a 11.92-second Hold of 3 strength?

Also, when you list the "Domination—100% chance for an 18-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only," is that basically a second hold of extended duration applied at the same time as the base hold, or is that value used instead of the base value? If the domination hold acts as an additional stacked hold, does that mean the second portion of the hold will remain on the target after the base portion expires?

Example A: Dominator A activates Domination and applies one unenhanced Char to Boss X. What is the total magnitude/strength of hold now active on Boss X?

Example B: Using the same Boss X, advance in time 12 seconds after application of Dominator A's Char. Is Boss X still held? If not, Dominator B applies an unboosted and unenhanced Char to Boss X. Is Boss X held now?

[iakona_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe they changed the toHit scale for Aim in I7? Iakona has it at 8.0. Maybe they lowered it to 5.0? Or maybe that's just a typo in the guide.

Edit - I am thinking Iakona's sources for the buff scales of Aim are a dev post. There's no indication he found them anywhere in game.

[/ QUOTE ]
The guide is likely a more accurate source than my estimations for Aim/Build Up. I PMed a few devs a couple months back asking if the scales were 8.0 and 5.0 for both powers, but never got a response, so I stayed with that estimate due to a complete lack of any conclusive testing to the contrary. I thought it was a fairly conservative estimate, as it was much lower than any of the other to-hit values being quoted around the boards and planners. Heck, even Arcanaville thought my numbers were a bit low.

It looks like the real scales are 8.0 DamageBuff, 2.0 ToHitBuff for Build Up; 5.0 ToHitBuff, 5.0 DamageBuff for Aim.

[Crisalis]

It says Spirit Shark has a 100% chance of Knockup. This is hard for me to believe that a power like this would have a 100% value. Please tell me this isn't a typo..

[Cuddles]

Disruption Field for Defenders is 30%.

[Taallyn]

I think I can see why we didn't get the "hard" numbers we were expecting with the Patron Power Pools. There are so many sliding scale factors and mathemagical matrixies that it looks to be practically impossible for the Devs to even know which numbers are "hard" and which would require additional massaging on the reader's part. The more they seem to try, the more it seems that the underlying systems are too overly complex for end users' needs for solid numbers. In short, there are very few solid numbers even behind the scenes.

[rjs_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
(For that matter, why are Energy Melee for Brutes and Dark Melee and Dark Aura for Stalkers missing from the guide update altogether?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers Dark Melee/Dark Armor isn't missing. They are listed on pages 38-39.

I do not see Energy Melee for brutes, soo hmmm...

[generichero234]

I think even the dev's aren't sure how it works. Seems like no one can remember.

[Stupid_Fanboy]

do you mean electric melee? that's the new brute attack set. Brutes had Energy melee at launch.

[Robotech_Master]

[ QUOTE ]
do you mean electric melee? that's the new brute attack set. Brutes had Energy melee at launch.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I mean that in the downloadable Prima Guide update, Brutes' Energy Melee is nowhere to be found. And given that the section is spread across pages and meant to be substituted for, rather than added to, the power listings in the I6 Prima guide, it's unlikely that it was left out because it was already there.

[RAZ0R]

[ QUOTE ]
Disruption Field for Defenders is 30%.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then why isn't the /sonic corruptor version 22.5%, in accordance with the 0.75 buff/debuff multiplier corruptors seem to have relative to Defenders?

[BurningHammer]

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.

I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is someone supposed to know the AT mods? They are just listed any old where are they? I mean I know cause I have been reading the forums awhile, but what about newer players or those that don't even pay attention to the forums? I know there are a large % that don't visit them. Buying a guide to have knowledge and numbers is kinda silly for things that should be listed ingame not necessarily the AT mod, but say "X" power gives 1.5% defense and a player may not know and unknowingly slot it.

[geombear]

boy i cant wait for the devs and the guide-makers to get this all sorted out in the next few weeks :)

[_Ilr_]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg.... Won't matter, people will still quote only 1 set of numbers like it was the Bible just like they already do with Hero Planners.


Why not just release the actual power-data spreadsheets in one huge data-dump with each major patch to everybody like a few other games have done? ...Y'know, some of us read those things faster than any website or guidebook can disseminate the info to us.

[geombear]

especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier

[_Brev__NA]

[ QUOTE ]
especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier

[/ QUOTE ]
PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier ;)

[RAZ0R]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier

[/ QUOTE ]
PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

mine does, but i use this monitor (http://www.techtastic.ca/reviews5/740b-2.html) as well. the monitor can rotate 90 degrees to display A4 docs as they were meant to be.

rotation ftw

[Larcen3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier

[/ QUOTE ]
PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!!! (places his monitor right side up)

[Kong_Fuu]

One thing I noticed: The guide lists Practiced Brawler as having resistance to Repel effects. I don't know about the villian version, but the Scrapper version has 0 Repel resistance (I couldn't even touch a Hurricane or Force Bubble user).

[Monkey_King]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I can see why we didn't get the "hard" numbers we were expecting with the Patron Power Pools. There are so many sliding scale factors and mathemagical matrixies that it looks to be practically impossible for the Devs to even know which numbers are "hard" and which would require additional massaging on the reader's part. The more they seem to try, the more it seems that the underlying systems are too overly complex for end users' needs for solid numbers. In short, there are very few solid numbers even behind the scenes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Surely enough. There's not even really a 'base' damage to go off of. They weren't kidding when they said there's a lot of math involved.

I have confidence they know what's going on under the hood, though, as often as certain devs make reference to their giant spreadsheets.

[Zombie Man]

The Prima guide is incomplete and full of errors.

Now you know why it didn't go to print.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.

I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

We need one of those cardboard wheelie circular sliderule-like things, where you dial in the power, and the AT, and the level, and the power value shows up in a little cutout box on one of the wheels.

[Stupid_Fanboy]

My kingdom for a CoH slide rule!

[Bradd]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, from what I recall, all dominator and controller single-target holds are Magnitude 3, regardless of level, and it's the duration that changes by level. That doesn't seem to match up with your "4.47 strength" in the guide (which is 3 * 1.49, the level 50 mez modifier for dominators). Shouldn't it be the 8 seconds that's multiplied by 1.49, for a 11.92-second Hold of 3 strength?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, based on past tests, it sounds like the 1.49 modifier was applied to the wrong value. For example, the Total Domination entry claims a duration of 8 seconds, which corresponds to player estimates of a base 8-second duration. Likewise, regular play shows that (at least pre-I7) the hold strength is always 3, regardless of level.

I suspect that what happened here is that the guide's values were generated by a program, and the code for protection strength (which does scale with level) was incorrectly reused for control strength also. However, it's also possible that the guide's values are correct, and the game code has it backwards! Confirmation on this point would be helpful.

Likewise, I'd also like to know whether Domination simply adds +100% strength and +50% duration (as we've previously assumed) or whether it effectively adds a second control of equal strength and 150% duration (as the guide implies). It would also be helpful to know for certain whether the Domination duration is +50% base or 150% of base+boosts.

[Castle]

Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.

Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.

WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.

Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[iakona_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.

Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.

WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.

Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. :p Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?

[geombear]

wow, so a brute with buildup has a tohit of 60% in pvp? then add in some accuracies in attacks to multiply that?


also for cinders, with domination active, it has a duration scale of 14 in pvp, with a mag of 8?

nice to see some of how this game really works :) i used to read guides like this for final fantasy tactics (great game!)

[Bradd]

Thank you for the clarification on Booleans and Domination, _Castle_!

Iakona: Yes, I think you're right. If it were an accuracy buff, it would work the way _Castle_ stated, but a to-hit buff should work the way you wrote it (unless the mechanics changed when Arcana wasn't looking :)). It's pretty easy to get the two modifiers mixed up when that's not the main point of the example.

geombear: By the same reasoning, +20% to-hit should raise a brute from 50% all the way to 70% in PVP. Subtract defense and multiply by accuracy to get the final number.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. :p Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, it's been a long day.

[iakona_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. :p Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, it's been a long day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Haha, no worries, as long as you guys do actually know how the systems work. ;) Mucho thanks to you for taking the time and effort to clarify the data in question.

[Bradd]

[ QUOTE ]
also for cinders, with domination active, it has a duration scale of 14 in pvp, with a mag of 8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Close. The normal effect versus players is 4 strength with 6 duration. With Domination active, there's a second effect at the same time that adds another 4 strength with 8 duration. The total effect would be 8 strength for 6 duration, then 4 strength for 2 duration.

For example, at 50th level, it would apply the +8 effect for 8.94 seconds, then drop to only +4 effect for another 2.98 seconds.

[geombear]

whooo 8 seconds thats awesome, with doms insane burst damage that's way more than enough time to kill our target (sorry couldnt help myself)

[Bradd]

Where do you get only 8 seconds? That's the total duration at 1st level with no enhancements. And that's also for the AOE hold, which is not practical for one-on-one PVP. The single-target hold, Char, lasts 17.88 seconds unslotted. It lasts about 35 seconds with three green SOs. Is that long enough for you to finish somebody off?

(Also: The guide lists a 9-second PVP duration for the Cinders Domination effect. I'm not sure whether the guide or _Castle_ is in error here. If the game data really does show an 8-second duration, that's probably a bug, since that's only 133% of the 6-second base, instead of the usual 150% duration.)

[MagicFlyingHippy]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.

Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.

WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.

Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, someone's gotta ask. I don't suppose it'd be possible to make public a copy of this spreadsheet, or at least those parts of it having to do with player powers, would it?

[Robotech_Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.

The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there going to be an errata'd guide download fixing these erroneous numbers?

Perhaps it could include the missing Brute Energy Melee section while it's at it? And the class-based multipliers for the power pools?

[The_RaZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.

Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.

WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.

Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the information Castle, but...

I would like to just point out that this is the first red name response, that I know of, in relation to ANYTHING dominator related outside of PMs...and it wasn't even in the Dominator forum or i7 Dominator feedback changes thread on test. As a matter of fact, it came on an off topic statement on Build and Aim.


Yeah, I went there. :)

[RAZ0R]

[ QUOTE ]

Is there going to be an errata'd guide download fixing these erroneous numbers?

Perhaps it could include the missing Brute Energy Melee section while it's at it? And the class-based multipliers for the power pools?

[/ QUOTE ]

bump for a good Q

[GenericHero_549]

[ QUOTE ]


Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any comment on Build up vs Rage?

Since they are both confirmed as 80% dmg buff, 20% tohit, is there a reason SS gets Rage and a set like Stone gets build up? They are both dealing with the same Smashing only problem.

I'd hate to get Rage nerfed, but when build up was thought to be a 100% buff, and a higher to hit buff, it made some sense. Now it doesn't.

[geombear]

for uniqueness?

ss's attacks do lower damage and are more of a dps-ish set, while stone is more of a burst damage set

rage kinda reminds me of followup for claws scraps, anyone know the numbers on it?

and rage's crash will get you killed a few times, some people slot it crazy because of that

[GenericHero_549]

[ QUOTE ]
for uniqueness?

ss's attacks do lower damage and are more of a dps-ish set, while stone is more of a burst damage set

rage kinda reminds me of followup for claws scraps, anyone know the numbers on it?

and rage's crash will get you killed a few times, some people slot it crazy because of that

[/ QUOTE ]

SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.

SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.

Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'

[Natsuki]

It's as Geombear says. SS's attacks are all lower BI. Rage makes it so that they're "on par" damage wise with other sets that do NOT use their Buildup. Once you factor in Buildup for Stonemelee, then Stonemelee is doing FAR more damage than SS can hope to deal. In addition, Stonemelees high damage single target, Seismic Smash, recharges faster than SS's Knockout Blow, and Seismic takes 1/3rd the time to cast compared to Knockout Blow.

Rage is a balancing factor for SS. So much so, if you make a SupStr char, and skip Rage, you're gimping yourself. Whereas, Stonemelees can skip Buildup and they're just as effective if not more so than SupStr who TAKE Rage.

[Natsuki]

[ QUOTE ]
SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.

SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.

Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, dropping Jab and Heavy Mallet, is stupid...

SupStr that doesn't take Jab, has to take Boxing instead. And ignoring Heavy Mallet is ignoring a LOT of damage.

Yes, Tremor is weaker than Footstomp. I do think Tremor needs a boost, but the rest of the Stonemelee set does NOT need a change just because SS gets Rage.

I played a SupStr/EnergyAura brute with my friends StoneMelee/EnergyAura brute. My friend didn't take Buildup, and I ran perma-Rage.

To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.

After making that SupStr Brute, I'll never again make another SupStr brute, the amount of damage they can pump out is too low even with Rage. I find my Firemelee brutes to have a significantly faster kill rate, and from that a higher survival rate. I definitely feel that SupStr is more for Tankers than it is for Brutes. A tanker has to hit to get use of their inherent, brutes don't. In fact, brutes want higher BI value attacks that animate quick, rather than low BI attacks with one high BI that takes forever to animate.

[GenericHero_549]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.

SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.

Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, dropping Jab and Heavy Mallet, is stupid...

SupStr that doesn't take Jab, has to take Boxing instead. And ignoring Heavy Mallet is ignoring a LOT of damage.

Yes, Tremor is weaker than Footstomp. I do think Tremor needs a boost, but the rest of the Stonemelee set does NOT need a change just because SS gets Rage.

I played a SupStr/EnergyAura brute with my friends StoneMelee/EnergyAura brute. My friend didn't take Buildup, and I ran perma-Rage.

To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.

After making that SupStr Brute, I'll never again make another SupStr brute, the amount of damage they can pump out is too low even with Rage. I find my Firemelee brutes to have a significantly faster kill rate, and from that a higher survival rate. I definitely feel that SupStr is more for Tankers than it is for Brutes. A tanker has to hit to get use of their inherent, brutes don't. In fact, brutes want higher BI value attacks that animate quick, rather than low BI attacks with one high BI that takes forever to animate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean you should actually not take them. I meant, Punch = Stone fist. Haymaker = Stone mallet, etc. The BIs are the same, not lower. SS is slower animation.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure the math bears that out. If you had Rage and higher fury, you simply should have been doing at least as much damage as him. If you both have high fury or he has higher fury than you, then he will do more damage. He will also spend a metric ton of endurance per second.

Super Strength with Rage has a higer baseline damage and a lower peak sustained damage. Stone Melee has a lower baseline damage (because of no Rage) but a higher peak sustained damage because fury multiplies a larger true base damage.

SS allows less accuracy slotting, which is not a small benefit, especially in PvP but I am very fond of it in PvE as well.

[Robotech_Master]

This is cute. I've found another error in the Prima Guide PDF. The 'Level' column for every power in every chart is off by 1. Level 1 powers are listed as 'Level 0', Level 32 as 'Level 31,' etc.

I've gone ahead and started a "consolidated thread" (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5730859&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=&vc=1) for errors in the guide over in the Suggestions forum. If folks find any others, stick 'em in there.

(Though with the number of errors I'm finding, maybe I'd be better off starting a thread for people to post anything that they find in the guide that is correct...)

[Bradd]

That sounds like a mix-up between internal mechanics and user interface. Based on what I've seen of the mechanics (like Iakona's work on tables and formulas), I'm pretty sure that the game tracks security/threat level internally as a number from 0 to 49. Starting at 0 works better in most programming languages for things like table indexing and calculations. However, humans prefer starting at 1, so the UI adds one to the internal numbers. Whoever wrote up the guide material must've forgotten that step.

[KayMoonpetal]

[ QUOTE ]
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.

Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time to update the Builder again!!

The old data I was pointed to had:
Aim Scale 8 To Hit Buff, Scale 5 Damage Buff
Build Up Scale 5 To Hit Buff, Scale 8 Damage Buff

[geombear]

what builder do you work on? the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd hate to get Rage nerfed, but when build up was thought to be a 100% buff, and a higher to hit buff, it made some sense. Now it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've known that BU was not 100% for Tankers and Brutes for ages and ages.

SS has 3 "large" attacks - KoB, Footstomp, and Hurl Boulder. The rest are rather small potatoes by Tanker/Brute standards. It also deals Smashing Damage. Compare this to Energy Melee, that has a mix of small and huge damages, big percentage energy damange, and standard BU. Compare it to Stone Melee, which has a laundry list of large damage powers, smashing damage, and BU.

Given the way the sets work overall I don't see a problem with Rage. You can't just look at Rage and think "omg, it's 120 seconds of Build Up!" You have to look at what the rest of the set does for you as well.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
what builder do you work on? the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much

[/ QUOTE ]

You can update the powers yourself in his planner.

[geombear]

hurl isnt a high dmg, it's medium (does the same as haymaker)

[geombear]

in whose, sherks? i'd rather wait for other ppl who actually do testing to give him the info, then have him update the builder so i can download a more recent patch :)

[UberGuy]

I don't mean "high" in the way it's used in the game. I just mean an attack with a decent kick to it.

[geombear]

that's what i figured. haymaker does the same, so they're either both "high" in your words, or both less than high (they belong in this latter category)

[Eldandil]

[ QUOTE ]
the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have that "unable to read config file" issue? Just go into setup --> configuration --> auto update and untick the "use proxy" box and you should be able to receive updates again.

Edit: I learned about this from Glycerin's post (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=archetypes&Number=5586592& fpart=&PHPSESSID=).

[geombear]

used to have that problem, fixed it, got 1 update with the basic i7 stuff, and now it always says "no new updates available"

[Jibikao]

This is an off-topic but when I read the guide, Corruptor's Sonic primaryset was listed to decrease endurance but the Sonic powers we have now reduce Defense. This is weird.

And also, Assault was listed as 15% attack boost but people say it's only 10%??

[geombear]

actually sonic now reduces resistance. radiation primary reduces defense

[Robotech_Master]

[ QUOTE ]
And also, Assault was listed as 15% attack boost but people say it's only 10%??

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on what your AT is. As Castle said, the listing was for a theoretical AT with modifier of 1.0. Some have a modifier of less than 1.0, which would mean they get less than 15%. Some might even have more than 1.0, I dunno.

The guide doesn't list the modifiers. It doesn't even list that there are modifiers, which I consider to be a serious flaw. A guide should tell you everything you need to know, not part of it. Since not all ATs get the same benefit out of the power pool powers, there should be more than one listing. Or at the least, the modifiers should be clearly listed with an explanation of what they mean.

[UberGuy]

It does make sense that the "baseline" number is 15%. Defenders have a boost to this (18.75%), being the game's best Leadership users. Controllers, Corruptors and Kheldians get the baseline, and everyone else gets about 70% of it (10.5%). I have a planner sitting here telling me that Masterminds get a unique AT mod of 80%, for 12%. I don't have an MM, so I can't say.

If you can afford to run it, Assault is an nice boost to a Defender's own damage, let alone the damage of their teammates. In the pre-ED days, it was pretty pointless, but these days it's like having another damage DO in all your attacks (or like having six damage slots in a power instead of three).