stamina, 6 slotted...

[sarris]

I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?

[LivingHellfire]

[ QUOTE ]
I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same as if you 4 slotted it.

At three slots you reap 95%, with 4 you'll reap 100%. With 5 and 6 you will still only reap 100%

[Kamendae]

According to Hero Builder...

0.088 more end/sec between 3-slotted and 6-slotted (with +3 SOs). That's about five end per minute.

Kam

[Kamendae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same as if you 4 slotted it.

At three slots you reap 95%, with 4 you'll reap 100%. With 5 and 6 you will still only reap 100%

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, actually. 5 and 6 are diminished the same as 4 is; with 5 you get 105%, and 6 gets you 110%.

Kam

[Knoxie]

I was under the impression that you could go over 100% with more slots, but not much more. In fact, in some powers on my mind/rad controller - due to having some HOs slotted - I have around 107% on certain aspects. I don't know the exact numbers for Stamina, but I'm almost positive you get more than 100%. BUT, it's more than likely REALLY not worth it to waste a slot for 5% or whatever small amount you gain.

[Screwloose]

Base End Recovery is 1.66 End per second.

Stamina gives you a 50% Bonus to that, so an additional 0.83 End per second.

3 slotted with SO End Mod Enh you get a 95% Bonus to the Bonus End, so that makes it 1.62 End per Second.

6 slotted with SO End Mod Enh you get a 110% Bonus to the Bonus End, so that brings it up to 1.74 End per second.

If you really really really have nothing interesting to do with those 3 slots you could put them in to Stamina for the extra 0.12 End per second, or in technical terms bugger all.

For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.

regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."

[Kamendae]

Saw the difference in our final numbers, thought I'd see why.

I think your "base" figure for Stamina is off. Just going by "feel" Stamina doesn't double your end recovery at three slots (i.e. zero to full in 30 seconds).

Now, Hero Builder numbers have base stamina at 0.507 end/sec, which works out to about a 30% base rate (0.507 / 1.667 = 30.41%) - which, three slotted with +3s, will add about 1 end / second (zero to full in 37.5 seconds).

Anyone feel like testin' tonight?

Kam

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much more than that; in terms of end per activation second the average is closer to 4end/sec. Slotting end reduce in all of your attacks probably saves more end than all of your toggles likely cost combined.

[Screwloose]

Kamendae

[ QUOTE ]
I think your "base" figure for Stamina is off. Just going by "feel" Stamina doesn't double your end recovery at three slots (i.e. zero to full in 30 seconds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite possible, lots of things got tweaked over the last few issues and I have to say Stamina is not a power that I keep good track of.


Arcarnaville

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much more than that; in terms of end per activation second the average is closer to 4end/sec. Slotting end reduce in all of your attacks probably saves more end than all of your toggles likely cost combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I look at it as 1 End per second per attack that you are cycling.

If you just cycle one attack then the End cost per second is End Cost / (Act + Recharge), but since you would normally be cycling 4 or 5 attacks in a chain, or just because you are spamming whatever has recharged, then you are likely to be spending 4 or 5 End per second for your total offensive actions.

Whichever way you look at it offensive abilities (ones which cause damage or distress to others) cost a lot more than personal defensive abilities and therefore save you a lot more when you slot them with End reducers.

regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."

[Castle]

An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well that solves that.

[Kamendae]

Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...

*genuflects* :D

Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.

*mails SherkSilver* :p

Kam

[Screwloose]

[ QUOTE ]

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Stamina with about a 100% Enh bonus provides an extra 49% End recovery?

That looks much more like the sort of value Kamendae was talking about than the value I was talking about. And in relation to the OP's question it means those 3 extra slots get you about 5 Extra End per Minute, still not what I would call a stellar return for slots.

Heh, makes it easier for me to justfiy not taking Stamina on most of my characters I guess.

regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."

[Caulderone]

I've been self-modding the Builder's Stamina number to 0.42 base. Dang, I'm pretty freakin' close!

Heheh.

[GadgetDon]

beyond the specific...anything beyond 4 SOs is wasted. 4 SOs only make sense if you may be dealing with yellow SOs (lower level than your level so they're not a full strength.

[EvilGeko]

Stamina base - 25 end per minute .42 per second

First figure is endurance per minute; second is endurance per second.

1 slot 33.25/.554
2 slots 41.5/.691
3 slots 48.75/.812
4 slots 50/.833
5 slots 51.25/.854
6 slots 52.5/.875

So slots 4-6 net you in total 3.75/.063

[Birdbird]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Stamina with about a 100% Enh bonus provides an extra 49% End recovery?

That looks much more like the sort of value Kamendae was talking about than the value I was talking about. And in relation to the OP's question it means those 3 extra slots get you about 5 Extra End per Minute, still not what I would call a stellar return for slots.

Heh, makes it easier for me to justfiy not taking Stamina on most of my characters I guess.

regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that would be closer to 75% since End mod SO's are 33% even level even though I think Castle may be slightly off. 3+ SOs would be 97.2% so that would be 148%.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

:blink-blink:

Endurance recovery functions like recharge enhancements? On the 1/1+enchancements?

WTH?

[Stupid_Fanboy]

why is that a shocker? you're essentially recharging your end instead of a timer. Regen, not heals- regen, can be treated the same way.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
why is that a shocker? you're essentially recharging your end instead of a timer. Regen, not heals- regen, can be treated the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it actually. It just seems like an involved process so that Stamina functions on a dimineshing returns function.

Which it probably was. With other stamina boosting powers, you are effectively locked down to +83.333% recovery at the very best (which is an impossible to get buff, as that is a 500% increase in recovery.)

Hmm....

[bAss_ackwards]

Thanks for making that simple enough for me to understand, EvilGeko. :cool:

[UberGuy]

Very specifically you regain 5% of your endurance bar every (3 / (1 + RecoveryBoost)) seconds.

Stamina is a 25% RecoveryBoost. It works on schedule A (33% enhancers).

So if you have 3-slotted Stamina you get back (about) 5% every

3 / (1+ .25 (1 + 0.95)) seconds = 1.4625 seconds.

Normal recovery = 5% / 3sec = 1.6667% / sec

With 3-slot Stamina = 5% / 3 sec * 1.4625 = 2.4375%/sec

Obviously, if you have 100 endurance, 1% recovered per second is 1 endurance per second. But if you have 110 endurance, then 1% recovery is 1.1 endurance.

It's also worth noting that these numbers may seem small, but when you combine them with endurance reduction slotting, the results are dramatic. If you analyze time-to-empty based on endurance burn vs. recovery, the number representing how long youy can fight ends up with your net endurance burn in the denominator. If you can make that net burn small, your time-to-empty becomes very large.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...

*genuflects* :D

Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.

*mails SherkSilver* :p

Kam

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle is confirming numbers that have been around for a really long time. The numbers I use match this site (http://www.cityofheroesonline.com/enhan/endurance_recovery.php) which has been around for quite a while and I believe is parroting information from a guide that was posted long ago (but the exact original source for this information escapes my memory).

You'll note the site says that stamina doesn't increase the amount of end recovered per recovery tick, but decreases the tick time - which seems to match experience, and amounts to the same net overall recovery boost (dividing the tick time by 1+stamina is the same thing as boosting average recovery per second by 1+stamina).

[Madam_Enigma]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but I look at it as 1 End per second per attack that you are cycling.

If you just cycle one attack then the End cost per second is End Cost / (Act + Recharge), but since you would normally be cycling 4 or 5 attacks in a chain, or just because you are spamming whatever has recharged, then you are likely to be spending 4 or 5 End per second for your total offensive actions.

Whichever way you look at it offensive abilities (ones which cause damage or distress to others) cost a lot more than personal defensive abilities and therefore save you a lot more when you slot them with End reducers.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is another factor to consider. if end usage of toggles=end recovery no matter how cheap your attacks are your going to have a losing situation. If end usage of toggles>end recovery then your endurance problems just got even worse. This was the core problem with DA in issue 4. In issue 4 putting an end reduc in the first three shelds and one in death shroud ment you broke even endurance wise exactly. Since there are many times where you need smash/lethal, mez protection, and elemental/energy resistance all at once fighting would always drain you of endurance. One small fight would leave you sitting at almost empty. Now the endurance issues are better, but still there.

[Kamendae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...

*genuflects* :D

Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.

*mails SherkSilver* :p

Kam

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle is confirming numbers that have been around for a really long time. The numbers I use match this site (http://www.cityofheroesonline.com/enhan/endurance_recovery.php) which has been around for quite a while and I believe is parroting information from a guide that was posted long ago (but the exact original source for this information escapes my memory).

[/ QUOTE ]

This particular number for Stamina may have been around for a while, true - but only as one of several (e.g. Hero Builder's number, Screwloose's number). And I find it interesting to note that it didn't come out as having been "around" until after Castle posted - which leads me to believe that it wasn't that well-known. Having a dev come by and tell us which one is definitive is always a good thing.

Kam

[Thunder_Family]

I'm very interested in this discussion, as I've long thought that Stamina was absolutely required for many builds to be fun. (I.e., not having all your Endurance drained after a fight and having to grit one's teeth while waiting for the Endurance bar/Rest to recharge.)

My Storm Defender's life got much, much better after she picked up Stamina, although that was many issues ago. I slotted my Tanker for Endurance reducers, and it's just absurd. One fight with a few thugs takes her down to nothing.

I'm a big fan of taking all of one's primary and secondary powers, and I've been trying to find a way to avoid taking Stamina on my Scrapper, since there's honestly only one power in the primary set I'd outright skip. (Warrior's Challenge. I want more aggro... why?)

Some of the posts I've read in this thread basically imply that Stamina isn't necessarily worthwhile. I'd love to get more perspectives on that.

[Sweetmeat]

[ QUOTE ]


Some of the posts I've read in this thread basically imply that Stamina isn't necessarily worthwhile. I'd love to get more perspectives on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think most people are saying to not take stamina, but saying instead that the 4th 5th and 6th slot you would put in it could get you much better returns if you used that slot as an end reducer in another power.

I have fooled around with Stamina-less builds, and find that not only does my mana not work well without stamina( no matter how I slot for end reduction ) but I REALLY miss swift and health as well.

[UberGuy]

Stamina-less builds are, IMO, only viable in two cases.

*) You are playing on the default difficulty
*) You have a strong end recovery power that you can use reliably. The Energy Armor and Electric Armor for CoV Brutes contain such powers.

There is a third case - you don't mind standing around waiting for end to come back.

Stamina greatly decreases downtime, and when combined with end reduction in powers, can greatly extend your ability to "fire on all cylenders".

To play on the basic difficulty setting, Stamina is a "nice to have." It's not required at all. To move up the scale it becomes more and more important. Especially to play at the top two settings, IMO it is an absolute requirement. You have to attack more times to kill foes (they have more HP and take less damage), and you often need to kill them quickly to survive (so no standing around waiting for endurance).

[Zen_Concern]

[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amazing, guess we will need to get the accolades that increase HP and Endurance now for PvP. No chance that you guys will disable those accolades in PvP to level the playing field? Will those accolades possibly mess up the outcome of datamining?

[Tachyon_Fringe]

I do find that stamina has been a great boon to my rad/rad defender, especially with the endurance cost reducing ancillary pool power and accelerate metabolism.

With it I can put my healing aura on auto-fire and still use my attacks without worrying about running low on endurance during a battle unless I'm fighting end-draining foes.

I have health and stamina both 3 slotted with SO's (usually +3), and accolades that boost my max end.

[Rathulfr]

/e channeling Teen Talk Barbie

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!"

[ScottieBaby]

[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure +end Accolades affect your endurance recovery? I know, for a fact, +health accolades don't. Why is endurance different? Why isn't health regen effected too?

It could be taken as a buff for Regen Scrappers if you fix that for us. =P Someone, somewhere, would die of a heart attack.

[Kamendae]

The accolades (or, really, any +HPMax or +EndMax you get) do not affect the rate of regen (ticks per minute) of either bar. What they do do is increase the raw amount of HP/End that is healed per tick. This is why Dull Pain, for instance, is so good for a /regen - you're still regenerating just as fast (zero to full time), but now each tick heals more damage.

Kam

[LadyMage]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll note the site says that stamina doesn't increase the amount of end recovered per recovery tick, but decreases the tick time - which seems to match experience, and amounts to the same net overall recovery boost (dividing the tick time by 1+stamina is the same thing as boosting average recovery per second by 1+stamina).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is most definitly true, both for end recovery and for health regen. The bars slide smoothly when a large amount of regen or recovery is in the works, not jumps up in large chunks. A regen scrapper who takes a nasty knock and hits red, quickly progresses smoothly into the orange, then yellow, then green. If regen was upping the per tic amount, it would jump up a lot, wait then jump again. It doesn't.

[Stupid_Fanboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure +end Accolades affect your endurance recovery? I know, for a fact, +health accolades don't. Why is endurance different? Why isn't health regen effected too?

It could be taken as a buff for Regen Scrappers if you fix that for us. =P Someone, somewhere, would die of a heart attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

your "fact" is incorrect. HP accolades and all powers that buff HP levels most definitely affect how HP regens.

here's a simple way of looking at it.

you've got 1000 hp.
it recovers in 240 seconds.
that's 4.1166 hp per second.

now add +10% HP.
you've got 1100 hp.
it recovers in 240 seconds.
that's 4.5833 hp per second.

so even though we're not taking into accound if you hvae fast healing or health or anything, having a larger pool of HP means you regen back more hp per second, and HP accolades and powers most definitely affect that.

[Derangedpolygot]

[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.

149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.

[Bradd]

6-slotting stamina only gets you to 154% recovery. So if 149% isn't nearly enough, that won't be enough either. You're better off spending those slots elsewhere (e.g., on more end reducers in your most expensive attacks).

[Sailboat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.

149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those extra three slots (above the standard three people use after ED) are only getting you a few endurance pips per minute -- like 3, maybe? There seems to be a lot of contradictory math floating around, so it's hard for me to say. But in essence, over the course of a full minute of combat, you're getting back less than the endurance activating one power once will use.

So any experiences you've had of it extending your ability to fight are most likely illusions. Sorry, but that seems to be the case.

While we would like to believe that we can improve our endurance situation by sacrificing three more slots, it's just not true.

Sailboat

[Stupid_Fanboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An easy way to consider it is:

Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.

Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.

149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's really not a good idea. You'd be better off putting those three slots in pretty much any other power.

148.725% versus 152.5% recovery is only 3.7 end per minute. You're telling me 3 end makes that much of a difference? I think it's all in your head.

If you took even 1 of those slots and put it in an attack, even to double slot that attack with end rdx, you'd be better off.

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]


148.725% versus 152.5% recovery is only 3.7 end per minute. You're telling me 3 end makes that much of a difference? I think it's all in your head.



[/ QUOTE ]

Is it? Or is there something to it?This is kind of something that I wanted to mention or ask but never remember too. There's so much that people argue about with this topic, I never wanted to stick a nose in it.

Sappers. I hate them with a passion. But I don't always get ALL of my endurance drained by them where I see even the multi-defensed Brutes and Stalkers do and that drops their toggles. Could it be that Sappers are set to drain just enough for what perhaps a 4 slotted Stamina would be and since I have mine 5 slotted I don't get completely drained. I'm talking Corrutpor here when I say Me. That's the character I'm referring to. If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.

[UberGuy]

What you're asking doesn't make sense. Stamina does not increase how much endurance you have. It increases the rate at which you regain spent endurance.

If you are not being fully drained and teammates are, it's because of something else. For example, it can be because you are higher level (the drain will be stronger Sappers who are more levels above you), or you have endurance drain resistance.

[Stupid_Fanboy]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.

[/ QUOTE ]

i promise you, it's 100% a placebo effect.

with 4slotted stamina, you recover 149.75 end per minute.
with 5slotted stamina, you recover 151.25 end per minute.

You're talking about noticing 1.5 points of endurance over a 60s time period. No way.

as an aside. if you threw that slot in an attack that you use alot, you'd be saving probably more like 10 to 15 end per minute. That is noticeable.

[Reptlbrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Very specifically you regain 5% of your endurance bar every (3 / (1 + RecoveryBoost)) seconds.

Stamina is a 25% RecoveryBoost. It works on schedule A (33% enhancers).

[/ QUOTE ]

So this means that the min-maxiest way of slotting a /Regen scrapper with both QR and Stamina would be a second slot in QR, then a second slot in Stamina, then a third slot in QR...?

[Bradd]

Yes, I think so. QR has a better recovery bonus than Stamina, so slot that first. However, the third slot is penalized under ED, enough that I think slotting Stamina next provides a bigger benefit (but I'd have to do the math to be certain). Once they're both two-slotted, QR is worth more again, so three-slot it first, then finish Stamina.

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.

[/ QUOTE ]

i promise you, it's 100% a placebo effect.

with 4slotted stamina, you recover 149.75 end per minute.
with 5slotted stamina, you recover 151.25 end per minute.

You're talking about noticing 1.5 points of endurance over a 60s time period. No way.

as an aside. if you threw that slot in an attack that you use alot, you'd be saving probably more like 10 to 15 end per minute. That is noticeable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can accept that. I've successfully fooled myself before. I guess it can happen.