How can a single Night Widow take down a team? [Archive]

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is so unfair that this mob does what it does. I dread Arachnos mission even more now, its not fair that she can single handedly cripple, and slaughter a whole team and not be an AV? I guess this is what would happen if they gave stalkers smoke grenade. I also believe the tohit debuff is too extreme most likely she is using that original smoke grenade that was pre-nerfed. If she gets Assasin's Strike I will quit the game. :mad:

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to pull an about-face on my usual post style here.

Night Widows are cool. Leave them alone.

What was that? People falling out of their chairs? Did UberGuy just defend a hard boss that gets teams killed?

I did.

Why? Because Nightwidows are one of the very, very few foes in CoH/V that do not turn the tide through massive damage, stupidly high defenses (though, actually, those are kinda stupidly high), or mass/chain mezzing.

They just debuff you in a really effective way. They make you blind (and also reduce your toHit). They are one of the few examples we have of a Defender-style boss/LT that's actually scary.

Solo, they are no problem for me. On teams where anyone has tactics, they are no problem. In fact I've been on teams where we faced as many as six LT versions per spawn (Arbiter Leery's "Tears of the Spirit" Arc). We did fine.

They have a gimmik. It's easy to find the counter to the gimmik, either as a teammate with Tactics or a yellow inspiration.

I would like them left alone and other more "smash you now!" and "mez you now!" bosses made more like them.

Kias_Kais

05-16-2006, 11:31 AM

*climbs back into chair*

Yea, I had an idea of how nasty these were when I first ran into one, so I took a second and set my minions to be a good distance away from me, to each side of the widow, pegged the widow with a few nasty debuffs and told them to open up on her.
She went down a bit faster than most bosses.

It's a matter of tactics, don't clump together against something that uses an aoe, not to mention a nasty one.

Kong_Fuu

05-16-2006, 11:38 AM

My only complaint is that it can be hard to tell when you're affected by the smoke grenade. You can still see your teammates, so half of the time it looks like you just cleared the spawn and it's time to move on.

Of course then you run through three different spawn looking for the next spawn and wonder why your health is suddenly dropping.

I wish the world would get "smokey" or something when you're under the influcene of SG just so you know to be careful.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 11:40 AM

That's a good point. I suspect it's tied to the Stalker-related perception code (it would be sort of uncool to be able to see them, since you could then use that to land location AoEs if you have them). But some sort of visual indicator would be a real improvement.

Hell, if they wanted to be really mean they could make you lose sight/targeting on your teammates; you're supposed to be blind, after all. You'd definitely notice that!

Mortaneous

05-16-2006, 11:43 AM

I dont know what the big deal about them is, you just toss an insight inspiration on yourself and presto their they are! Plus, tactics will nullify the smoke grenade.

The_Foo

05-16-2006, 11:43 AM

If you check out your status bar, you'll see an icon for the blinding. Come I7, it may even have a text component, like "Taunted" does.

To Test with you!

Kong_Fuu

05-16-2006, 11:46 AM

Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

The text component would help. I still like the idea of putting some smoke effects in front of the camera though.

Mr_Right

05-16-2006, 11:49 AM

I wouldn't mind if they put the smoke component around each affected character's head. That would fit the bill nicely, woudln't it?

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

[/ QUOTE ]

>.>
<.<

*raises hand*
I actually check it constantly through a fight, to see what's affecting me at any time, and how much of it is new or negative. If I suddenly see everything vanish, I check my icon bar, because I know they aren't dead. Why? Because there are no rag dolling bodies!

But yeah, I do check it consistantly.

Mortaneous

05-16-2006, 11:54 AM

Not checking the Icon bar in a fight is like backing your car up into traffic and not checking your mirror. You should be aware of everything that is affecting you at all time....2 tons of moving steel as well (Unless you get hit by a kia).

IronYeti

05-16-2006, 11:56 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

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I actually check it constantly through a fight, to see what's affecting me at any time, and how much of it is new or negative.

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If you have a quick way of telling which of those icons are negative or "bad stuff", please tell me!

I'd pay more attention to my icon bar if it had more useful, accessible information. As it is, the only thing I can reliably use it for is re-applying any teammate click-buffs, because I know specifically what icon to look for. Anything else, unless I have exhaustively memorized my teammates' powers and their respective icon, I have no idea if it's friend or foe without a right-click and reading.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you check out your status bar, you'll see an icon for the blinding. Come I7, it may even have a text component, like "Taunted" does.

To Test with you!

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't faced a NW on test. That sounds good to me. I do see the current icon we get on live, but it's not very ... eyecatching. Pun unavoidable.

I usually notice the smoke, myself. I am very attentive to the possibility of NWs in Arachnos spawns.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But yeah, I do check it consistantly.

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I have much too large a screen to constantly shift my eyes up to that corner. If it were undockable from my health/XP meter, that would make it more useful.

Bill Z Bubba

05-16-2006, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But yeah, I do check it consistantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have much too large a screen to constantly shift my eyes up to that corner. If it were undockable from my health/XP meter, that would make it more useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not move the whole thing to an easier location? I agree with you, by the by, leave Night Widows ALONE. Love em.

Little clue for the clueless:
When an entire spawn suddenly disappears, and you're fighting Arachnos, pop a yellow. DING, everybody's back.

Kong_Fuu

05-16-2006, 12:41 PM

Usually the problem isn't with a whole spawn disappearing, it's when that Night widow boss ran away during battle and nobody noticed. Then she comes back around the corner behind your team and tosses a smoke grenade. Nobody notices and suddenly there are 4 groups aggroed on you.

Worse, sometimes on pick up groups you'll have people freaking out "OMG! Invisible mobs are attacking me! My client is bugged! (Character logging out in 30...29...(dead)...28)

A smoke cloud around your character's head would be great too. In fact I'd like to see that for the player version of SG, since it's kinda hard to tell who it hit as it is now.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 12:44 PM

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Why not move the whole thing to an easier location?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I don't want that huge gui element blocking my field of view. I relegate it to the upper right corner of my screen and rarely look at it. I use my "over-the-head" health and endurance bar for probably 90+% of my self-monitoring.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 12:45 PM

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A smoke cloud around your character's head would be great too. In fact I'd like to see that for the player version of SG, since it's kinda hard to tell who it hit as it is now.

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Er, there is such an effect now. You have a grimy cloud of black smoke around you when SG is on you.

Your particle settings may be set too low to see it.

Killer_of_Saints

05-16-2006, 12:49 PM

funny, my bots have no problem "Seeing" night widows.

Fraktal

05-16-2006, 12:52 PM

I'm gonna agree with UberGuy on this one. I think they're one of the few actual tactical challenges in the game. Most of the 'challenges' are just "you have to hit it more times" (AV vs. say a boss), and little else.

F

Mr_Right

05-16-2006, 12:54 PM

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If you have a quick way of telling which of those icons are negative or "bad stuff", please tell me!

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For the most part, it's a combination of things. If I see an attack animation coming for me, I glance over to see if it's going to hit (the icon is there or not) and if I have enough HP to survive it (if not, pop a green). Additionally, if I see something new occuring in the line, I check to see if it's a buff I'm familiar with, or something new. If it's something new, I'll right click it if I can, and check it out.

I kind of have a memory for that kind of thing, so I don't know how easy it is to just remember these things. Like, did you know that when the Lost / Rikti use their energy sword, it's the same "status effect" symbol as the plasma rifle? The picture is the same, but the description, damage, and effects are different. Just something I've picked up from knowing.

And even the symbols themselves can tell you if it's a negative effect. If you see a "down arrow" in the picture, it's most likely a negative effect. If you see an "up arrow" in the picture, it's a positive effect. Think of Healing Aura and Twilight Grasp. If you see the Healing Aura icon show up, you know you're getting healing. But it also has an "up arrow" in the picture behind the plus. If you see the Twilight Grasp icon, you could be getting healed, or debuffed. That's when you use a little common knowledge. Is there a Dark Corruptor or Mastermind on the team? Are you fighting the CoT? Would you normally expect Malta to have Twilight Grasp? Things like that. Smoke Grenade is an easy one as well. If your allies use it, you won't see the icon there. If the enemies use it, you will. Infact, that's how most of the powers are. Things like Holds, Debuffs, attacks, etc you won't see there unless they're being used against you.

Also, someone mentioned they would look there more often if it was in an easier spot to see. The bar I look at is the one in the expanded Team menu. That way I can see mine, compared to everyone else's, and have the HP bar right there.

Fraktal

05-16-2006, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Worse, sometimes on pick up groups you'll have people freaking out "OMG! Invisible mobs are attacking me! My client is bugged! (Character logging out in 30...29...(dead)...28)

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Well yes this is a problem to be fair.

The issue is that there is a severe -- and I mean severe bug in the COH/V client(s) that causes some players (it seems to happen to certain people on my SG and not others) to get the "vanishing mob" syndrome. This is not tactics or mob abilities; it is a bug, and a very, very bad one. If this has happened to you as a bug, you're likely to assume it when it happens to you under correct behavior.

The devs are in part at fault here because in 2 years they still have not addressed this "invisible mob" bug, and so players who have seen this bug for 2 years make the wrong assumption -- but an entirely understandable one.

Before the devs put legitimate disappearing mobs with invisibilty powers into the game, they needed to get rid of this bug completely. That they did not is actually poor IMO. They need to kill this bug. Now. Then the Night Widows are just a tactical challenge.

Until they do, for people who get this bug (I don't but 3 of my SG-mates do on a regular basis), it's going to look like a bug and just what you described will happen. We worked it out on my team and we can usually figure out what is going on (through group chat communication), but it's very disconcerting to people who have seen the bug before. This bug needs to be squished.

F

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 01:04 PM

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funny, my bots have no problem "Seeing" night widows.

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If I were you I wouldn't rely too heavily on this. It screams "bug" to me, and I won't at all be surprised if it stops working that way someday.

Tal_N

05-16-2006, 01:06 PM

I do think that the Night Widows need buffing a little, without their smoke grenade they really do suffer from being medicore. Giving them placate or AS like the Bane Spider Executioners would be ideal.

LunarKnight

05-16-2006, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
funny, my bots have no problem "Seeing" night widows.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were you I wouldn't rely too heavily on this. It screams "bug" to me, and I won't at all be surprised if it stops working that way someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd giggle and cheer for days if they did. Perhaps then mobs would stop chasing down my Stalker despite the fact he's clearly "Hidden". NPC characters don't need perception to "see" you once they've "seen" you. A pain for every single AT except MM's IMO.

Iron_Specter

05-16-2006, 01:11 PM

I like them. I never really noticed them being paticularly hard. The first couple of times I thought it was a graphic glitch that caused them to disappear and was about to bug it :-). After that I figured out the tricks to get them.

Biostem

05-16-2006, 01:24 PM

The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version. If a blaster smoke grenade's a group, then attacks them, they'll see him no problem. If a Night Widow smoke grenades a team, not only can they not see her, but they can't see her allies either, even if they attack. As soon as the NPC's attack, you should be able to see them, just as they could see you if you used smoke grenade on them.

Regardless, 1 insight/tactics/any +perception power will resolve the whole issue...

Click_Beetle

05-16-2006, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you check out your status bar, you'll see an icon for the blinding. Come I7, it may even have a text component, like "Taunted" does.

To Test with you!

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's "SCREWED!" if I remember correctly.

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do think that the Night Widows need buffing a little, without their smoke grenade they really do suffer from being medicore. Giving them placate or AS like the Bane Spider Executioners would be ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Masochism.

I would be intensely opposed to this change.

They would do better with a more effective ranged attack chain.

Click_Beetle

05-16-2006, 01:43 PM

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.

[/ QUOTE ]

Along with the mob version of Invincibility, Cloaking Device, Flame Thrower, and a whole host of other powers. I'd love for them to address this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Because I have a /Devices Blaster it pisses me off to no end when I can't hit a Longbow Spec Ops because his cloak is engaged.

The_Foo

05-16-2006, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

The text component would help. I still like the idea of putting some smoke effects in front of the camera though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, if the enemies suddenly disappear and you think something's fishy, take a gander at the bar. If you see something you don't recognise, then right-click to see what it is.

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It'd be easier if it blinked and did cartwheels to warn you, sure, but is it really too much to ask for a little presence of mind to spot check it when something's up?

The_Foo

05-16-2006, 01:50 PM

Fraktal

05-16-2006, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Along with the mob version of Invincibility, Cloaking Device, Flame Thrower, and a whole host of other powers. I'd love for them to address this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Because I have a /Devices Blaster it pisses me off to no end when I can't hit a Longbow Spec Ops because his cloak is engaged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, one thing that annoys most players is when the NPCs don't "play by the rules." Those spec ops guys do tons of things that'd drop my Stalker's hide instantly, and their hide stays up. That's frustrating... because you think to yourself, "Ah, I have had my cloak dropped by this, so I'll do it back to them" and it doesn't work... Which screams "cheat!" (or at least, "fudge!") quite loudly.

Too many elements of this game are kludgey hacks designed to paper over all the massive inadequacies. Villains getting uber-versions of player powers is one of the worst kinds.

F

Biostem

05-16-2006, 01:51 PM

This kind of reminds me of the first time I encountered a fake nemesis and I saw a force bolt headed my direction. I had tried FF defenders before and was a bout to laugh... then it hit and did like over 200pts of damage.

But, yeah... mob versions of powers are ridiculous compared to player versions...

The_Foo

05-16-2006, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Worse, sometimes on pick up groups you'll have people freaking out "OMG! Invisible mobs are attacking me! My client is bugged! (Character logging out in 30...29...(dead)...28)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes this is a problem to be fair.

The issue is that there is a severe -- and I mean severe bug in the COH/V client(s) that causes some players (it seems to happen to certain people on my SG and not others) to get the "vanishing mob" syndrome. This is not tactics or mob abilities; it is a bug, and a very, very bad one. If this has happened to you as a bug, you're likely to assume it when it happens to you under correct behavior.

The devs are in part at fault here because in 2 years they still have not addressed this "invisible mob" bug, and so players who have seen this bug for 2 years make the wrong assumption -- but an entirely understandable one.

Before the devs put legitimate disappearing mobs with invisibilty powers into the game, they needed to get rid of this bug completely. That they did not is actually poor IMO. They need to kill this bug. Now. Then the Night Widows are just a tactical challenge.

Until they do, for people who get this bug (I don't but 3 of my SG-mates do on a regular basis), it's going to look like a bug and just what you described will happen. We worked it out on my team and we can usually figure out what is going on (through group chat communication), but it's very disconcerting to people who have seen the bug before. This bug needs to be squished.

F

[/ QUOTE ]
This bug has also been getting worse, it seems. I regularly have to exit and re-enter missions in order to see the enemies (which is a stellar pain in the behind if you're an MM).

Fraktal

05-16-2006, 02:02 PM

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This bug has also been getting worse, it seems. I regularly have to exit and re-enter missions in order to see the enemies (which is a stellar pain in the behind if you're an MM).

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Right, and this is my point. They have a BUG, that has existed since beta, that looks EXACTLY like the super-powers of this villain type. How in the world does one expect the players who regularly experience this bug from mission to mission, to magically know that this one time it's now villain powers and not a bug?

They need to fix this bug. The bug should have been fixed before they ever introduced a villain with powers that look just like it. That they haven't done so is rather sloppy on their part.

It's also pathetic that this fundamental and very serious bug (whole entire missions full of mobs being present but not visible to the end user??) has not been addressed in any way in two years. That's SOE quality bug-killing, that is. (Which, if you know SOE, means 'crappy'.)

F

Fraktal

05-16-2006, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of reminds me of the first time I encountered a fake nemesis and I saw a force bolt headed my direction. I had tried FF defenders before and was a bout to laugh... then it hit and did like over 200pts of damage.

But, yeah... mob versions of powers are ridiculous compared to player versions...

[/ QUOTE ]

Paragon Protector MOG vs. player MOG. 'Nuff said.

F

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 02:13 PM

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This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!" :p

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Well, yeah! ;) I want the damn door to come to me!

LunarKnight

05-16-2006, 02:23 PM

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They need to fix this bug. The bug should have been fixed before they ever introduced a villain with powers that look just like it. That they haven't done so is rather sloppy on their part.

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Not that I disagree that it should be fixed, but the reason it hasn't been fixed is probably that they simply have no idea what causes it. I know I have no idea personally. I used to randomly have it happen every mission, then it went away, then it randomly happened an average of 1:5 missions. I got a new machine and it stopped completely. Then I had a mission that did it again, but haven't seen it since. My guess is the devs are pretty clueless as to what causes it.

And that's EXACTLY why everyone needs to /bug it every single time they see it, as soon as they see it. I know it can be hard to think about /bug when you're being slaughtered by invisible foes, but it's really the only way the devs are going to get the data to fix it. Otherwise it's almost impossible to fix a bug you can't even reproduce (and if you try, there's no way to know whether or not you actually fixed it).

UberGuy

05-16-2006, 02:36 PM

Yeah, FWIW, I have seen this bug exactly once in two years. I've seen it affect my regular gaming buddies one other time.

Which I don't say to make less of the problem. Indeed I just mean to point out how terribly variable it really is.

Biostem

05-16-2006, 02:41 PM

I've had it happen a few times; usually when there's an in-mission ambush that attacks as soon as you enter the mission. The odd thing is, I was able to see a regular spawn of enemies just fine, behind where the attacks were emanating from. Still, they should AT LEAST have a smokey cloud around your head to indicate this, or make smoke grenade a targetted AoE instead of somethign that sticks with you (which I think is kind of odd)...

Fuzun

05-16-2006, 02:50 PM

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Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?
...

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I carefully scan my iconbar during a fight...with my Kheldians. It can be the difference between dropping Dwarf form and laying the hurt on a boss, or turning yourself into a sitting duck. Kheldians the one AT that voluntarily turns off Tanker level mezz protection in combat. Go figure.... :eek: :)

Cobaltix

05-16-2006, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

The text component would help. I still like the idea of putting some smoke effects in front of the camera though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, if the enemies suddenly disappear and you think something's fishy, take a gander at the bar. If you see something you don't recognise, then right-click to see what it is.

That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It'd be easier if it blinked and did cartwheels to warn you, sure, but is it really too much to ask for a little presence of mind to spot check it when something's up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Not at all ;)

In fact, I'd say it's the mark of a decent player.

Bill Z Bubba

05-16-2006, 03:43 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!" :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah! ;) I want the damn door to come to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.

Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. (http://members.cox.net/mizdeliverance/sexy.jpg) Don't let browser resize image.

Dalantia

05-16-2006, 03:47 PM

Heh. I run.. 12x10 (I don't remember the exact numbers) and sit 4ish feet away. (don't ask.) I have to squint, some days..

Kitten_of_Chaos

05-16-2006, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!" :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah! ;) I want the damn door to come to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.

Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. (http://members.cox.net/mizdeliverance/sexy.jpg) Don't let browser resize image.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Kills the claw meister and runs away with his monitor), my web design work would go so much better with that moniter :(

Another strategy with GW is attacks that do not require a target to hit, FSC, ISC, Whirling Hands, Rain of Mew, Force Bubble, etc.... If you slot even 1 acc you can hit more often than not. For my brute that is a common strategy I use even for Longbow Spec Ops, either whirly hands where they are, or wait for them to attack, get their stealth suppressed so I can target them, and stun the hell out of them, or best tactic of them all run up to Spec Op.....FE+BU+Energy Transfer = You die now!

Staplepuller

05-16-2006, 09:00 PM

I have to agree with the others in saying I love the Night Widows more than most anything in the game. It is one enemy the devs got right, as it does something other than ye olde basic attack. It functions like every KoA should, though I do say I would love to see them get either caltrops or trip mines as well. It would be nice running up at one and landing into a faceful of C4 for a nice surprise. :D

Umbramancer

05-16-2006, 09:11 PM

I've only faced a Night Widow once, so far. It was during a Bloody Bay mission, as either a Dark Defender or a MA/Inv Scrapper (I don't have any villains above 10, yet). Wow, that was a tough fight...

I think they're fine the way they are. Just because the only way I managed to beat the one was by summoning a Shivan (massive Radiation defense debuff, ftw...) doesn't mean I'll quit in frustration.

Vort

05-16-2006, 09:30 PM

Dr_Robert

05-17-2006, 01:08 AM

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Paragon Protector MOG vs. player MOG. 'Nuff said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time a PP MoG's, my BS/Regen dies a little bit inside. :eek:

Night Widows? The first time I ran into one was a nasty surprise, to be sure. Picked up some quick debt too. They're still a pain, but not exactly difficult to prepare for. Fighting Lost at low levels? Bring Breakfrees. Fighting Arachnos at high levels? Bring Insights. Not that big of a deal, IMO.

And if you run out of yellows, do what I do. Pop Aim + Inferno and hope for the best. :eek:

-Dr. Rob

Azerrath

05-17-2006, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.

Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. Don't let browser resize image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh.. what? Sorry, got distracted by the villianess in that picture :D

Man... Your video has to be AWESOME!! If I could afford that, I would be a happy camper. I bet it makes this game look beyound beuityful. (Man, I'm a lousy speller :( )

Twisted Toon

05-17-2006, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Worse, sometimes on pick up groups you'll have people freaking out "OMG! Invisible mobs are attacking me! My client is bugged! (Character logging out in 30...29...(dead)...28)

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually just zoning out of the mission and back in will fix that bug for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just yesterday, my brother a friend and I were running a mission against the snakes in Mercy. We logged into the mission, everyone was there. after the first run in with one group that quickly grew to two and wiped the team, we relogged into the mission. None of us realized that my brother had that graphical bug. the team window showed him as "on mission map" but was blacked out like he was logging in. However, he was in the mission. We started in on finishing up the two group battle. When I noticed a couple of snakes just running around in circle. I couldn't see who they were following (my brother). It was funny and irritating at the same time. His health was blinky red and he couldn't stop to type anything. As long as he kept moving, they would chase him, but not get to attack.

He exited and re-entered the mission and that fixed the problem of us not being able to see him.

Castle

05-17-2006, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'

Teklord

05-17-2006, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna agree with UberGuy on this one. I think they're one of the few actual tactical challenges in the game. Most of the 'challenges' are just "you have to hit it more times" (AV vs. say a boss), and little else.

F

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. Nightwidows are tough the first time, but once you know what they do they are just meat. My robots like their meat cooked, My stalkers skewer it, my corruptors irradiate it or freeze it, and my dominators like to sculpt it into pretty statues.

I think they are neat villians. Every once in a while I miss one in the spawn and someone calls it out mid-fight. Then she dies. It is good.
-Teklord

UltraPrime

05-17-2006, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's a good point. I suspect it's tied to the Stalker-related perception code (it would be sort of uncool to be able to see them, since you could then use that to land location AoEs if you have them). But some sort of visual indicator would be a real improvement.

Hell, if they wanted to be really mean they could make you lose sight/targeting on your teammates; you're supposed to be blind, after all. You'd definitely notice that!

[/ QUOTE ]

I love Night Widows. I think they're fun and add something new to the game. However I do agree that an indicator would be needed. In fact, not so much of a new indicator, as the fals one removed. I'm talking about the fact that not only is your perception reduced, but also your ability to hear. When all the mobs vanish, so does the sound of the battle. That is the reason why some people think the battle is over.

UltraPrime

05-17-2006, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!" :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah! ;) I want the damn door to come to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.

Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. (http://members.cox.net/mizdeliverance/sexy.jpg) Don't let browser resize image.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain. I have the same monitor :)
I ended up moving the healthbar to the center top. and the target right under it. With some room for buff icons. I would never be able to tell who I had targeted before. Too much to keep looking up and down. Glad I didn't get anything bigger then 24in. Can you imagine getting that 30in? yikes.

LyteInVirtue

05-17-2006, 01:41 PM

Luminara

05-17-2006, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is 0.5, my left nipple is a stalk of celery.

And there's no celery attached to my body. :p

Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff was tested and verified at 15% by Goofy_Parrot. Recheck your numbers or get to fixing Flash Arrow. *cracks whip*

And fix my ZAPPY ARROW, darnit! It's still glorfing! :mad:

UberGuy

05-17-2006, 01:47 PM

Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia. ;)

Teklord

05-17-2006, 01:52 PM

Squirrel_Mark1

05-17-2006, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is so unfair that this mob does what it does. I dread Arachnos mission even more now, its not fair that she can single handedly cripple, and slaughter a whole team and not be an AV? I guess this is what would happen if they gave stalkers smoke grenade. I also believe the tohit debuff is too extreme most likely she is using that original smoke grenade that was pre-nerfed. If she gets Assasin's Strike I will quit the game. :mad:

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to pull an about-face on my usual post style here.

Night Widows are cool. Leave them alone.

What was that? People falling out of their chairs? Did UberGuy just defend a hard boss that gets teams killed?

I did.

Why? Because Nightwidows are one of the very, very few foes in CoH/V that do not turn the tide through massive damage, stupidly high defenses (though, actually, those are kinda stupidly high), or mass/chain mezzing.

They just debuff you in a really effective way. They make you blind (and also reduce your toHit). They are one of the few examples we have of a Defender-style boss/LT that's actually scary.

Solo, they are no problem for me. On teams where anyone has tactics, they are no problem. In fact I've been on teams where we faced as many as six LT versions per spawn (Arbiter Leery's "Tears of the Spirit" Arc). We did fine.

They have a gimmik. It's easy to find the counter to the gimmik, either as a teammate with Tactics or a yellow inspiration.

I would like them left alone and other more "smash you now!" and "mez you now!" bosses made more like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Q-F-T! >_<

Nibb_Nibb

05-17-2006, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

[/ QUOTE ]

And the Blasters /Devices smoke generade? Whenever I hit a group of MOBs for that, they just kindly turn around and remind me this is a non-smoking section... oh, and then they kick my butt.

Night Widows are stupidly hard though. And not the nice kind of stupidly hard like Paragon Protectors, they're just plain out too hard (considering they reward the same as the other possible bosses in the same group). They're one of the few MOBs that I'll eat an entire tray of inspirations and still lose.

Luminara

05-17-2006, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.

Oh, and on topic, I throw my lot in with the pro-Night Widow crowd. They're a lot more fun to fight than the typical stuff we get. At least they do something more interesting and challenging than resist status effects or damage.

Retrogression

05-17-2006, 02:15 PM

I don't think 0.5 translates to 50% in this case. (that's multiplicative) To-hit debuffs are subtracted from to-hit stat. so 15% means that base to-hit is probably 4, meaning 4 - 0.5 = 3.5 would be the resulting to-hit, leaving base 12.5% for the value of the debuff, and defenders get 15% due to their higher AT debuff multiplier.

Or something like that.

imported_Resonance

05-17-2006, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

LaEstrella

05-17-2006, 02:37 PM

Are you kidding me? Smoke Grenade from devices is only 3.5%? Wow, I knew it was worthless from actual experience using it, but damn, to see it quantified....

UberGuy

05-17-2006, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are stupidly hard though. And not the nice kind of stupidly hard like Paragon Protectors, they're just plain out too hard (considering they reward the same as the other possible bosses in the same group). They're one of the few MOBs that I'll eat an entire tray of inspirations and still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my experience just doesn't match that. I'd much rather face a Night Widow than a "Tanker" Longbow Warden, who can one-shot every CoV AT except a Brute.

Pahbster

05-17-2006, 03:07 PM

I didn't read the entire thread, but I'd like to bring up two points:

1) Clicking a yellow inspiration will allow you to see again, and boost your accuracy for the duration of the inspiration, basically negating most of the effects of the smoke bomb.

2) The night widow is no where near as nasty as some of the longbow wardens.

Veazey

05-17-2006, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.

Oh, and on topic, I throw my lot in with the pro-Night Widow crowd. They're a lot more fun to fight than the typical stuff we get. At least they do something more interesting and challenging than resist status effects or damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to agree with my fellow Trick Arrow fan here. Flash Arrow, two-slotted with debuff SOs, doesn't have a 0.5 accuracy modifier on it on live. I am intimately aware of this.

And I also like Night Widows, where "like" is shorthand for "find incredibly challenging in a refreshing way."

Luminara

05-17-2006, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my brain just melted.

*goes back to the Lumiverse to get a pail to put the brain goo in and try to figure out how to funnel it back into the ear*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3771102#Post3771102).

Incidentally, this isn't the first time that _Castle_ has told us that Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is identical to that of Smoke Grenade or Smoke. That post, however, you can locate with SearchFu. :p

Castle

05-17-2006, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's essentially correct.

A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

runcrash

05-17-2006, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Until they do, for people who get this bug (I don't but 3 of my SG-mates do on a regular basis), it's going to look like a bug and just what you described will happen. We worked it out on my team and we can usually figure out what is going on (through group chat communication), but it's very disconcerting to people who have seen the bug before. This bug needs to be squished.

[/ QUOTE ]

First time I got smoked by a Night Widow I thought, "Oh crap it's this bug again." I was actually glad when I found out that it was smoke grenade.

If it works the same as the /dev SG then I'm assuming it doesn't stack with itself? Because I've been smoked more than once when I only saw one Night Widow, of course maybe I just didn't see the other one. I can see how it seems like the mobs are "cheating" but I don't see any reason why player powers and mob powers should be identical.

I do think it presents an challenge, but not as much as actually finding other players that can grasp the concept of aggro management and alpha strikes. Personally I think adding new challenges into the old high-damage/chain-mez dynamic that mobs have is a good thing. Mobs with Tp-Foe, that would be interesting.

My main beef with their smoke grenade is that it lasts to dang long. Okay, so I get smoked and I pop a yellow, we clear the mob and the yellow wears off then I have to wait around for SG to wear off before we can move on to the next group, and I'm waiting way to long. If anything I'd like to the duration on Night Widow's SG shortened.

Revolver_Law

05-17-2006, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's essentially correct.

A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

So with that being said, why should Smoke Grenade count as an attack? The debuff is practically non-existant and it's ability to stack with CD is hindered greatly due to the combination of not being able to slot it with range and it's "attack" trait which surpresses the toggle that's it's supposed to be stacking with.

Fury Flechette

05-17-2006, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's essentially correct.

A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

So with that being said, why should Smoke Grenade count as an attack? The debuff is practically non-existant and it's ability to stack with CD is hindered greatly due to the combination of not being able to slot it with range and it's "attack" trait which surpresses the toggle that's it's supposed to be stacking with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this very same train of thought and question.

Futurias

05-17-2006, 04:50 PM

Luminara

05-17-2006, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That just plain sucks.

There is no other word to describe this. It sucks. Why is an accuracy debuffing power even in the game with such tiny values?

Feh. Consider Flash Arrow blacklisted permanently. :p

AND FIX MY GLORFING ZAPPY ARROW!

Biostem

05-17-2006, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.

The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok... so then a change neds to be made to the mob version of smoke grenade. Once a mob attacks a player, the entire spawn should be visible. That is, in effect, what happens for mobs. You'd liel to see it fixed - excellent... but until then we're playing on a vastly uneven field. No player power can blind enemies with the kind of effectiveness that nightwidow smoke grenade has. This is not just a minor inconvenience, it's downright overpowered.

Perhaps, like I stated earlier, just make smoke grenade a targetted AoE, so you can at least get out of the area to be able to see again...

Inquizitor

05-17-2006, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'

[/ QUOTE ]

What I would like to see is something in the AI that detects a change in perception then does a calculation. Can I see my target? If yes then no change. If no then do a looking around emote (like nijitsu's danger sense, or Placate) Then go back to default standing around mode.

Of course if other characters are in range, that they can see, then they would attack. I dont see why a change in perception would be hard to detect. I detect it whenever it happens to me by the shiny new Icon at the top of the screen. The game aparently knows the power has been used.

Now if I do something like turn invisible I can see how that might be a little harder to check. I am not actually doing anything to the enemy. Maybe add some sort of heartbeat tic every few second. Can I see target? yes or no? I dont know how hard or intensive this would be. From what I can tell the mobs dont have any kind of 'heartbeat' AI.

UberGuy

05-17-2006, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That just plain sucks.

There is no other word to describe this. It sucks. Why is an accuracy debuffing power even in the game with such tiny values?

Feh. Consider Flash Arrow blacklisted permanently. :p

AND FIX MY GLORFING ZAPPY ARROW!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yay that I was right about the Greek being read by Patagonians.

Boo that the real meaning is so... icky.

Shadbolt

05-17-2006, 06:54 PM

Honestly what it is is Crap.

Sorry, quit playing my stalker when I figured out I couldn't hide after hitting someone even if I got out of LOS, Behind boxes and hidden under a rug PLUS using my powers.

Don't get me started on Ambushes.

Primal

05-17-2006, 08:29 PM

For the few days I had Smoke Grenade on my AR/Devices, I would swear on a stack of Bibles and Korans and, I dunno, Necronomicons...anyway, I'd swear that not only did SG not debuff anything, but it drew aggro once they saw you. I teamed a lot during that time, mostly facing Trolls, and I can promise that every Troll in the spawn, once aggroed would turn and throw rocks at me and only me, even if I hadn't attacked at all. It was not perception, it happened, and over and over.

Mind you, this was on Test, and it was several issues ago...right after the original SG fix (which btw I never got to actually exploit, damnit). However, the bitter taste of that, combined with the nigh-useless debuff, has caused me to ignore SG ever since. There are so many other powers I can take which are more useful, why waste time with situational powers?

Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them. How many yellows am I supposed to carry in a large-team mission, and what's the target number of times that I'm required to leave the mission to go restock? Or, alternatively, if I should happen to wind up on a team without someone using Tactics...what member of the team should give up their spot so we can find that person? It all rubs me the wrong way, and smacks of [censored] other MMOs have pulled.

Academic and aesthetic senses aside, as long as my Singularity or henches or teammates can see them, then whatever.

Max_Firepower

05-17-2006, 08:30 PM

<<which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.>>

Boy - Now THAT has gotta be a RINGING endorsment to explain what Over-Nerfing (and yes, that's YOU Dev's) does when a broken power get's "fixed."

Just once, can you try to not fix something in increments that are not recorded on the fraggin' Richter Scale? Sure, Blaster Boy, take a power with THAT description above. Why - that ought to become the new power description for players shouldn't it?

Pahbster

05-17-2006, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them. How many yellows am I supposed to carry in a large-team mission, and what's the target number of times that I'm required to leave the mission to go restock? Or, alternatively, if I should happen to wind up on a team without someone using Tactics...what member of the team should give up their spot so we can find that person? It all rubs me the wrong way, and smacks of [censored] other MMOs have pulled.

Academic and aesthetic senses aside, as long as my Singularity or henches or teammates can see them, then whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

When my corruptor takes on *ANY* enemy set who can hold, stun or mez, I *MUST* carry break frees with me or I can pretty much can kiss my [censored] goodbye.

These groups include rikti, the lost, tsoo, longbow, freakshow, devouring earth and others.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is pretty much everyone has to carry inspirations depending what enemies groups they face, if they are soloing.

UberGuy

05-17-2006, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I've defeated them w/o any inspirations before. I just got the drop on them and beat the snot out of them before they could blind me. ;)

Knockback, etc., helps a ton.

So it's not as if you must have perception powers. They just make them particularly easier.

Mythmaker

05-17-2006, 09:49 PM

And......no response from the OP to any of this.

Funny.

Starwaster

05-17-2006, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna agree with UberGuy on this one. I think they're one of the few actual tactical challenges in the game. Most of the 'challenges' are just "you have to hit it more times" (AV vs. say a boss), and little else.

F

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. Nightwidows are tough the first time, but once you know what they do they are just meat. My robots like their meat cooked, My stalkers skewer it, my corruptors irradiate it or freeze it, and my dominators like to sculpt it into pretty statues.

I think they are neat villians. Every once in a while I miss one in the spawn and someone calls it out mid-fight. Then she dies. It is good.
-Teklord

[/ QUOTE ]

My Mastermind tried to carve one into an elephant statue once. He chipped and chipped away anything that didn't look like an elephant. Unfortunately, all I ended up with was a pile of dust.

Guess there wasn't an elephant in there :(

Lycantropus

05-17-2006, 10:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'

[/ QUOTE ]Then how does Placate work? It enables a break with their lock-on right, or in any event "de-aggroes" them from the caster?

I don't know if it would be workable, but couldn't something similar be programmed; like a "placate aura", that effects NPCs targeting you just long enough to break the lock when stealth based powers kick in again? This would only be for PvE purposes, affecting only the AI, because the lock gets broken already for PvP purposes when invisibility-like (hide, stealth, invis, etc.) powers kick in.

As it stands, that's a rather severe imbalance going on, that we drop lock-on as soon as the NPC hits their power, but they can chase us to hades and back no matter how much we use to break it until they get bored of following.

It's stuff like this that embitters me with all the talk of "balancing" the game. The above example is for all intents and purposes a bug that the AI exploits to keep us targeted after we should have gone invisible to them again. I have the funny feeling that if it was a power on our part that enabled this effect for us it would be, regardless of difficulty, fixed within a patch or two at most.

I'm not trying to call shenanigans on you or anyone else _Castle_; I sincerely think you and the rest of the team are not "out to get us" or whatever, but until things from both sides of the fence start to get similar treatment, threads like these will happen.

Other examples include, but are not limited to:

Phase Shift activation time to compensate for the limited usage it now has (to make it actually workable "as intended" as an uh-oh power). If that's been fixed, my apologies. Everyone I've known that had it respeced out of it when the change hit, and hasn't looked back. I haven't met anyone with it since either...

CoT portal Behemoths that give no xp to keep them from being exploited, but can give you just as much debt as any other critter when they dogpile you..

If the system or AI needs some sort of nerf, that should be at least near as important as when we do. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't seem like that a lot of the time from our side of things. :confused:

I'd say leave the Night Widows as they are, but we need to work at least as well with our versions of the power against the NPC's as they do with us, or against other players.

edited a sentence for clarity

Natsuki

05-18-2006, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3771102#Post3771102).

Incidentally, this isn't the first time that _Castle_ has told us that Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is identical to that of Smoke Grenade or Smoke. That post, however, you can locate with SearchFu. :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I just looked at Goofy Parrots number there, and that's a, well, mistake. See, that's using the "old" incorrect style of Accuracy calculation.

Back in the day, we thought that ToHit buffs and debuffs were multiplicative. Hence, GP said that the ToHit debuff was between 10 and 20% (we'll take 15% for this case). Under the multiplicative (incorrect style), You would do this:
( 50 Base ToHit ) ( 1 - 0.15 ToHit Debuff ) ( 1 + 0 ToHit Buff)
50*0.85*1=42.5% Tohit after the Flash Arrow.

Now. Under the actually Accuracy calculation, Tohit buffs and debuffs are -additive- this is key here. Instead of multiplying them together like above it's like this. (Going to use _Castle_'s numbers of 6.25 ToHit debuff unslotted)
( 50 Base ToHit) - ( 6.25 ToHit Debuff) + ( 0 ToHit Buff)
50-6.25=43.75%

Now, as you can see, these values are VERY close to each other. So, GP's numbers, while they are correct, are using an incorrect formula for calculation. Where as _Castle_'s numbers are using the Scalar system (See: Power Data Standardization (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=faq&Number=4754304&page=1& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) for more info), and is using the correct formula for accuracy calculation.

I hope this helps clear any confusion. :D

Edit: PS. As _Castle_ said, with SO's Flash Arrow is a 9.6%ish ToHit debuff, in I7, against ALL foes, that will be a 19.2% damage mitigation.

( 50 - 9.6 ) = 40.4% Chance to hit.
40.4/50=80.8% of original chance to hit.
This is for Minions.
If the enemy is a boss, then it's.
( 50 ) * 1.3 = 65% Chance to hit (before Flash).
( 50 - 9.6 ) * 1.3 = 52.52% Chance to hit (after Flash).
52.52/65=80.8% of original chance to hit.
(Edit here. Boss Accuracy bonus is 30%, not 15%. They used to have a +15% ToHitbuff. It still comes out to that 19.2% damage mitigation, which is the great thing about the I7 changes)

Currently on Live (I6), Flash Arrow is exactly what has been said above. To tiny to matter, but once I7 comes out, it'll be quite a bit better (though not as good as other tohit debuffs).

Dr_Robert

05-18-2006, 01:02 AM

TheDeadlyShoe

05-18-2006, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Then how does Placate work? It enables a break with their lock-on right, or in any event "de-aggroes" them from the caster?

[/ QUOTE ]
the Placate power apparently does two things to its target, it gives the target 'Placate' status and it removes the caster from the target's rage list entirely. (thus they arn't aggrod on you at all and they can't see you).

the devs are balancing for difficulty, not for fairness. if the difficulty is properly in line then they arn't going to touch it. in an ideal world the powers would be more balanced, but in the end, difficulty is more important.

ebon3

05-18-2006, 08:00 AM

JohnPreston

05-18-2006, 08:24 AM

My character couldn't even see her when I was on a team that ran across one. Seriously. She was slaughtering us all and all I could do was stand there and wonder [censored] was going on.

imported_Resonance

05-18-2006, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3771102#Post3771102).

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah. First, he has the unslotted value listed as 8%, not 15%. Second, he only used about 500 attacks on a minion, with a target accuracy near 40%, which isn't sufficient to measure with any great accuracy. He got a value of around 8%, which with 500 attacks is a little better than 95% confident that the value is between 3% and 13% (which puts the expected value of 6.25% decently in the middle). For him to lock it down to actually being between 7% and 9% he'd need to test for 9,000 to 10,000 attacks.

If you didn't like the simple arithmetic from earlier, this is probably making your brain melt further, so I'll have to ask you to just take it on faith until you can take a college statistics course and get confidence levels explained to you.

TopDoc

05-18-2006, 08:44 AM

Well I'm going to call shenanigans on _Castle_! He said the scale is 0.5. He listed the multipliers and final ToHit debuff for various ATs. But he never listed the same for mobs! Come on, is everyone else here blinded by the smoke??? He's only given us half the answer. Without the mob multiplier, the 0.5 scale number is as useless as the total Enhancement values that now show up when slotting powers. They both tell you nothing.

If that Night Widow has a 1.0 multiplier, then that scale 0.5 debuff is actually a 50% ToHit debuff, which is MAJOR. The same issue may be why PP MoG is so much more effective than player MoG. I don't recall seeing anything anywhere on mob multipliers. Time for a PM I think.

P.S. If I knew the post-nerf value of Smoke Grenade, I wouldn't have recently respec'd into it with my Fire/Dev. As _Castle_ just said, the -Perception is completely negated once you agro the mobs, because they will ALWAYS be able to see you. Sure you could use it to sneak by mobs, but just running by fast with Cloaking Device is a whole lot faster, safer, and easier. The only thing it has going for it is the ToHit debuff, but that's so small it can barely be measured. Oh, one other thing... Toe bombers without Super Speed can use it on small spawns, assuming they hit every mob and wait for Stealth Suppression to wear off. I'm sure there are at least a couple toe bombers without Super Speed somewhere.

_Ilr_

05-18-2006, 08:47 AM

I don't get it.. did EvilRyu say "If Stalkers got smoke grenade"? ... Well... THEY DO.
If he wants to talk dirty tricks... there's MUCH WORSE things mobs could do that my PvP Corr already does all the time... which is:
-Spawn Seeker Drones... Debuffs ACC and PER worse than smoke grenade
-Seekers will attack whether I'm phaseshifted or Invisible... I don't even have to risk being targeted.
-Place Invisibility buffs on my "AS-capeable minions".
-Spam a Taunt while turning invisible, then switch to a Terrorize, then back to the Taunt+Invis when the Terrorize wears off again (BtW, Thx for the idea Castle!...it's ganktacular in a team fight!)
-Drop a Poison Trap with "pulsing holds"... anyone who's fought immobile Gas Turrets knows how quickly this attacks breaks every Mez protection in the game.
-Even if you kill me, the gas trap stays there...continuing to pulse.
-Pre-emptively Snipe from 225 yards away...Kite with Teleport... Snipe again.
-Teleport you almost 300 yards into: Caltrops, Poison, Mortar, TripMines, TimeBomb, and anything else that's handily waiting nearby.
-And there's no jumping out it either...I have -JMP debuff too.

None of this stuff is Uber either... It's just very effective when in certain situations.
And as long as the MASSIVE +DEF buff that NW's had is removed, then they'er only situational too and not game breaking. ...Like was already pointed out, some of the NPC's base stats on attacks can usually be more game-breaking than any of the tactics they use. We should be encouraging anything that strengthens the AI as an alternative to the hamfisted game design practices of just buffing HP/Regen/DEF/whatever else.

Luminara

05-18-2006, 09:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3771102#Post3771102).

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah. First, he has the unslotted value listed as 8%, not 15%. Second, he only used about 500 attacks on a minion, with a target accuracy near 40%, which isn't sufficient to measure with any great accuracy. He got a value of around 8%, which with 500 attacks is a little better than 95% confident that the value is between 3% and 13% (which puts the expected value of 6.25% decently in the middle). For him to lock it down to actually being between 7% and 9% he'd need to test for 9,000 to 10,000 attacks.

If you didn't like the simple arithmetic from earlier, this is probably making your brain melt further, so I'll have to ask you to just take it on faith until you can take a college statistics course and get confidence levels explained to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

*cough* You did note, before you jumped on the Submit button to make nasty comments, that the 8% figure was the final defensive buff from the 15% accuracy debuff that he estimated from the tests.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the formula provided—and my subsequent math—are correct, the base accuracy debuff would appear to be somewhere between 10 and 20 percent (meaning an even-con minion will hit 5-10% less often with an unslotted Flash Arrow applied than without).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, seems you didn't. Maybe instead of attacking simply out of a need to feel big, you could be a little more dignified in future conversations. And regardless of how close or off GP's tests were, he at least put some effort into trying to figure out why FA was performing so poorly. Denigration of others efforts without putting forth any of your own is little better than poo-pooing.

Please keep your poo-poo away from me.

CuppaKenja

05-18-2006, 10:25 AM

Very well put Lumi...GP has done great work with TA and as far as the topic at hand is concerned, I call Balderdash on Castle. There is no way possible SG for the Night Widow is the same for players. I have gone blind with her SG and nothing, not melee, spitting, or even groping distance do anything to make me see anyone or anything! Certainly not the case with Flash Arrow. Currently Flash Arrow is more of a warning to the foes to tell them "Hey we're here" cause they're agro is 70% to 100% of the mob when engaged (for the mathematically challenged, that is in a mob of 10 odds are that a FA'd group will agro from 7 to all 10 when engaged) From that it may be once or twice in 10 tries where I can succesfuly range pull one maybe 2 minions. Tell me again how that is "the same as" Night Widow's SG.

If TA is only meant to be in any way effective for defenders, why on Recluses red earth did it become available for MM's at 3.5%?! MM's staple for survivability are the secondaries (pets alone without any help from your secondaries are not enough to survive a mob of even con for more than 3 mobs)

Castle, I understand numbers are a big thing but the gameplay is a different animal. There is an obvious issue with TA and the other blinding powers not applying as fairly as the NW SG.

Oh, BTW, any doubts on GP testing on TA should see the test boards on TA and how diligent he, Lumi, and several others are in testing it's effectiveness.

LaughingRat

05-18-2006, 10:34 AM

LaughingRat

05-18-2006, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but who carefully scans their iconbar after every fight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe YOU should be, particularly after a fight with a Night Widow.

Chadius

05-18-2006, 11:28 AM

Does anyone else find it amusing that one message from EvilRyu sparks these huge pointless debates?

And that he never checks them again until next week's "change this unfair thing or I will quit" post?

(Yes I know the irony of posting in EvilRyu's forum to decry it, so don't bother pointing that out.)

LaughingRat

05-18-2006, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else find it amusing that one message from EvilRyu sparks these huge pointless debates?

And that he never checks them again until next week's "change this unfair thing or I will quit" post?

(Yes I know the irony of posting in EvilRyu's forum to decry it, so don't bother pointing that out.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Morons beget morons.

What does that say about you and me?

Chadius

05-18-2006, 12:24 PM

Natsuki

05-18-2006, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Very well put Lumi...GP has done great work with TA and as far as the topic at hand is concerned, I call Balderdash on Castle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look above at the math I listed. _Castle_ is spot on the scales.
Once I've been hit with Smoke Grenade, and I can still see the Widow (via Perception) I don't whiff like crazy.

The problem most people are having is that we don't get the benefit of seeing our foes immediately after we're attacking if we've been hit by a -90% Perception debuff (Which is the same across all of the AT's.

[ QUOTE ]

The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see, the only "Scalar" that he listed is the ToHit Debuff, which -is- spot on, and GP's numbers agree with it perfectly.

The trouble their for us as players is the -90% Perception. After being hit, we don't "magically" gain back that 90% lost Perception. Is this a real issue? I dunno, I've never had -that- much trouble with Widows.

But then, on the flipside, if our Smoke Grenades worked like that to enemies, where they can never see us long as we're out of Perception range, it'd get changed mighty quick. So, maybe it's time just for fairness that the Perception debuff be SUPPRESSED when players are attacked (and not just for the mobs).

imported_Resonance

05-18-2006, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*cough* You did note, before you jumped on the Submit button to make nasty comments, that the 8% figure was the final defensive buff from the 15% accuracy debuff that he estimated from the tests.

[/ QUOTE ]
You did read the full message of the person I was replying to before flying off the handle and assuming I was being nasty, right? You know, the guy complaining about his brain leaking out of his ears when I explained the multipliers?

There are people who don't like math. Acknowledging this isn't being nasty. It's kindly noting that the complete explanation of confidence intervals, z-values and p-values would generate reactions somewhere between pain and snoring, so there's going to have to be a certain amount of trust of the figures involved.

[ QUOTE ]
No, seems you didn't. Maybe instead of attacking simply out of a need to feel big, you could be a little more dignified in future conversations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Healer, heal thyself. GP's misunderstanding of how ToHitDebuff works aside, the only significant number is how much a minion's final accuracy dropped -- in his tests, by about 8 percent, and although he didn't list error bars, his cited final accuracy and attack counts are enough to determine that it's going to be more or less +/- 5%. Maybe instead of attacking simply out of a need to feel big, you could be a little more dignified in future conversations.

[ QUOTE ]
Denigration of others efforts without putting forth any of your own is little better than poo-pooing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I already explained exactly why it works that way, and exactly what the numbers are, and Castle confirmed them. Exactly what further effort do you want out of me?

TheDeadlyShoe

05-19-2006, 07:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Currently Flash Arrow is more of a warning to the foes to tell them "Hey we're here" cause they're agro is 70% to 100% of the mob when engaged (for the mathematically challenged, that is in a mob of 10 odds are that a FA'd group will agro from 7 to all 10 when engaged

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah k. enemies keep attacking because of how the AI works, not because they can 'see' you - they cant. thats why MM henchmen attack invisible targets.

Vindicus

05-19-2006, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And as long as the MASSIVE +DEF buff that NW's had is removed, then they'er only situational too and not game breaking. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you happen to know the status on this fix? Personally I see that as the only issue. I have to agree with UberGuy that the difficulty of Night Widows is fine, as long as this defense problem is corrected.

EvilRyu

05-19-2006, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's essentially correct.

A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc

A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but this just cant be right. There is no way 1 smoke grenade from a night widow is supposed to turn an entire team into Whiff Fest 2006. If it is this is not fair. You will not always have yellows or a teammate with tactics and in our case they only reason we even got past that part mission was because kept resummoning pets and let them kill. The only explaination I can give for this is your guys arent giving us all the information. Night Widow is using 20 slotted pre-nerf Hammi-Os in her smoke grenade.

EvilRyu

05-19-2006, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For the few days I had Smoke Grenade on my AR/Devices, I would swear on a stack of Bibles and Korans and, I dunno, Necronomicons...anyway, I'd swear that not only did SG not debuff anything, but it drew aggro once they saw you. I teamed a lot during that time, mostly facing Trolls, and I can promise that every Troll in the spawn, once aggroed would turn and throw rocks at me and only me, even if I hadn't attacked at all. It was not perception, it happened, and over and over.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what happens to me every time I use flash arrow on teams. I have stopped using it. I could even have a tanker go in and taunt and yet I still get stoned to death by trolls when I am well outside the normal critter perception range.

imported_Resonance

05-19-2006, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but this just cant be right. There is no way 1 smoke grenade from a night widow is supposed to turn an entire team into Whiff Fest 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't experience this happening in Siren's, and I don't even run Tactics at that level. If you have a mission where you can replicate this, you might want to log your actual hit/miss rate over a few hundred attacks against a night widow and send the results of that to the devs. It's possible that they're spawning an alternate version of a Night Widow inside some missions that has a decimal point misplaced somewhere.

Another thing to check for is to see how many debuff icons show up. It's possible that the attacks are stacking when they aren't supposed to.

Sunpyre3387

05-19-2006, 07:01 PM

I agree with the OP about the Night Widows being way over powered. I've also seen them take down an entire 8 man team, it's not a pretty sight. :(

It was an 8 man pickup team (I was playing my lvl 24 mind/psy dom), and of course the leader sets the mission of the highest level person on Invincible so everything is red/purple to me. I had never fought NW's before, so I was surprised when the grenade hit and all the enemies vanished and we went from kicking butt to a team wipe within about 10 seconds. But I knew what had happened, and how to counter it. I asked if anyone had Tactics, and was greeted with silence so I assume no one did. I had 2 yellows on me and told everyone to make sure if they had them to use them.

So we try again. And again we're kicking butt until the smoke grenade hits and everything disappears. I pop my yellow and can see again, which does me no good since no one else can see and I still have the massive to-hit debuff on me. The only people with heals were 2 darks and a kinetic, so once the smoke grenade hit all the heals stopped since there were no enemies to be seen to target off of and we all die again.

3rd times the charm right? We all arrive back from the hospital angry and wanting revenge. I use my last yellow as the smoke grenade hits, and everything just...stops. On our side anyways... most of our team is standing around like useless dolts being beaten on by invisible enemies. Then my last yellow wears off and the enemies pull their disappearing act again. I see the brute is still able to fight (he must have some kind of built in +perception power) so I run up next to him to try and fight whatever he's fighting, hoping I can hit it if I'm in melee range and target through him but some error message pops up about the enemy being "too hard to see" before I die again.

We assemble again, there's only the boss and a few others left. The were 4 of us on the Night Widow, and she killed 2 of us before we finally put her down for good.

We move onto the next mob, another Night Widow and another team wipe seconds after the smoke grenade hits. I go to the hospital and log off in disgust, having just endured the worst pickup team ever. The players were fine, but those bosses are so ridiculously overpowered I wanted to rip out my hair in frustration. I like a challenge as much as the next person, but requiring us to bring along a full tray of yellows or have a certain power pool is not right. This isn't the same as having to bring along break frees, b/c most enemy mezzes only affect one person at a time, and wear off quickly. This one boss will cripple an entire team if they don't have the right powers, and if there's 1 NW per mob you'll run out of yellows very quickly. There was no way for that team, with the powers that we had, to beat that mission without incurring tons of debt.

Maybe player -perception powers should work that way too! My fire/kinetics troller could drop Smoke/fire cages on a mob, then run in with Hot Feet turned on and stand there while they all slowly burn to death, unable to attack me. Oh wait, that would be overpowered wouldn't it? Of course it would! So why do enemies get to do that to me?

Anyways, after that horrifying experience I changed my whole build and worked in Tactics so that would never happen again. Personally I think they should make the NW bosses appear only in the late game. How many players have Tactics in their build by lvl 24?! :confused:

geombear

05-20-2006, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.

The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok... so then a change neds to be made to the mob version of smoke grenade. Once a mob attacks a player, the entire spawn should be visible. That is, in effect, what happens for mobs. You'd liel to see it fixed - excellent... but until then we're playing on a vastly uneven field. No player power can blind enemies with the kind of effectiveness that nightwidow smoke grenade has. This is not just a minor inconvenience, it's downright overpowered.

Perhaps, like I stated earlier, just make smoke grenade a targetted AoE, so you can at least get out of the area to be able to see again...

[/ QUOTE ]