Theory On Favoritism Whatchamacallit

[JohnPreston]

So I got bored and pondered.

You know how Tankers tend to complain that they often don't get anything from the Devs, while Scrappers seem to revel in the splendor that is yummy stuff?

I think it deals with population amounts of characters. The more played Archtypes are put into the queue ahead of others when it pertains to fixes and new stuff.

Yes? No? Pie?

[EvilGeko]

No. Scrappers have gotten nerfed mercilessly (At first at the insistence of Tankers), have never gotten a new powerset and have the least number of power pools.

A lot of people play Scrappers because they are easy to solo and are fun. But it's not on account of dev love.

[JohnPreston]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers have gotten nerfed mercilessly (At first at the insistence of Tankers), have never gotten a new powerset and have the least number of power pools.

A lot of people play Scrappers because they are easy to solo and are fun. But it's not on account of dev love.

[/ QUOTE ]

God bloos you for being here Mister Geko!

..

...

*eye squint* I'm watching you.
( Why yes, I am tired and bored)

[Pilcrow]

Every AT thinks it is getting short shrift. 3/5 have to be wrong about that.

[Corto]

Why isn't it 4 out of 5, like dentists?

[concreteshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Why isn't it 4 out of 5, like dentists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because no squirrels were involved in testing :p

[Infernus_Hades]

Here is the deal:

Statesman came into the Tanker forum after Issue 2 and APOLOGIZED for ignoring Tankers.

Issue 3 came and a few items were fixed like movement while in unstoppable and Tanks were OVER buffed in ways that we did not ask for.

Tanks gave VERY good ways to improve us without being overpowered and now we got ignored again.

Next came the Issues 4, 5, 6 and ED which in many ways not only unwound all the Buffs from Issue 3 they put us lower than Issue 2 in damage and defense.

So many of the older tanks have a history of what happens in the gameplay when the entire game is about damage and you do less than anyone else and if you have defenders and control - you don't need tanks.

What happens is a slow bleed to other ATs.

Tanks are common early on but by the time you get to the 20's they are much less so. Why? Boredom. Damage is low and they level slow once out of the teens.

Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]

You know how Tankers tend to complain that they often don't get anything from the Devs

[/ QUOTE ]

No I don't.

[Knightsedge]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers *SNIP* have the least number of power pools.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am missing something here. What did you mean by this ? All ATs have access to the same pools.
Not being snitty, just don't know what you meant.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers *SNIP* have the least number of power pools.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am missing something here. What did you mean by this ? All ATs have access to the same pools.
Not being snitty, just don't know what you meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ancillary power pools

[Knightsedge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers *SNIP* have the least number of power pools.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am missing something here. What did you mean by this ? All ATs have access to the same pools.
Not being snitty, just don't know what you meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ancillary power pools

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah thank you, I only have one scrapper and he is only 14.

[CrushingAbyss]

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

They tried fury on tanks and discovered that it was grossly overpowered. It was a good idea so they kept it around. What's wrong with that? The game is better for it. Would you swap fury for less HP, less base damage, and another serious gutting of your primary? Statesman thought not so he shelved the idea.

Tanks may have been ignored, and that's debatable certainly, but they were'nt the only ones. Anyone remember the AV MAG change, and the 8mo+ it took it add the stupid purple triangle "fix"? I'd say controllers have at least as big a complaint about being ignored as tanks.

You want to talk pathetic damage and inability to solo? My invuln/axe was a breath of fresh air after my I3 grav controller! Propel was garbage in those days, no containment, and when you finally hit 32 your pets added marginal damage at best.

My only advice is to find something you enjoy playing and quit obsessing over an AT that is actually doing pretty well. It worked for me. Parked the grav at 44 around I4 and never looked back.

[BlackSly]

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know? This thread was doing well as long as it was kept generic.

Every AT can come in and cry about this or about that. Every. Single. AT.

Let's not turn this into a "my AT is treated worse than yours" thread :)

[Squirrel_Mark1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why isn't it 4 out of 5, like dentists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because no squirrels were involved in testing :p

[/ QUOTE ]

O Rly? <o.O>

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the deal:

Statesman came into the Tanker forum after Issue 2 and APOLOGIZED for ignoring Tankers.

Issue 3 came and a few items were fixed like movement while in unstoppable and Tanks were OVER buffed in ways that we did not ask for.

Tanks gave VERY good ways to improve us without being overpowered and now we got ignored again.

Next came the Issues 4, 5, 6 and ED which in many ways not only unwound all the Buffs from Issue 3 they put us lower than Issue 2 in damage and defense.

So many of the older tanks have a history of what happens in the gameplay when the entire game is about damage and you do less than anyone else and if you have defenders and control - you don't need tanks.

What happens is a slow bleed to other ATs.

Tanks are common early on but by the time you get to the 20's they are much less so. Why? Boredom. Damage is low and they level slow once out of the teens.

Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this only happened to tanks? Look at your controller brethren, almost the same story. Suggestions by the community ignored, now overbuffed in ways we didn't ask for, yada yada yada.

And, frankly, is that treatment worse than the Blasters who have had their secondaries acknowledged as sub-par for over a year and to date have received two tweaks, both unrelated to the secondaries.

Or Defenders, with a role-blur problem since beta, still unacknowledged, let alone unresolved.

Every AT can tell a sad tale of dev misbehaivor if they want. And they all think the way they were mistreated (neglect, promises but no fixes, fixes but the wrong ones) is the worst possible form of mistreatment.

It's the culture of victimization live on-stage in the CoH Forums.

Every AT is better off than most of its proponents portray it to be, and every AT could use more attention than the devs have time to give. Such is life.

The devs react better to constructive ideas, especially ones that take neighboring ATs into account, than to claims of favoritism - even accurate ones. People should spend their energy differently, either constructively - or if nto constructively in playing the game instead of ranting on the boards.

IMO.

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the culture of victimization live on-stage in the CoH Forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY! Down at the CoH Forums! Victimization, Live, On-Stage, No Holds Barred! $15 for adults $5 for the kiddies! Bring the kiddies! BRING THEM!

[EvilDeathBee]

[ QUOTE ]
Every AT is better off than most of its proponents portray it to be, and every AT could use more attention than the devs have time to give. Such is life.


[/ QUOTE ]

*joins the Pilcrow fan club*

I'd put this in my sig if I had one. It's worth remembering when a character seems to be having trouble.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
Every AT is better off than most of its proponents portray it to be, and every AT could use more attention than the devs have time to give. Such is life.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually most of us in Scrapper-land think Scrappers own.

We just want the devs to move us from near perfect to perfect so all you other rabble base will belong to us. :p

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every AT is better off than most of its proponents portray it to be, and every AT could use more attention than the devs have time to give. Such is life.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually most of us in Scrapper-land think Scrappers own.

We just want the devs to move us from near perfect to perfect so all you other rabble base will belong to us. :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Since Issue 2, Scrapper's main problem is GETTING dev attention.

Don't worry regen scrappers. :)

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it deals with population amounts of characters. The more played Archtypes are put into the queue ahead of others when it pertains to fixes and new stuff.

Yes? No? Pie?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your perspective.

If you ask a TA/A whether the developers pay more attention to the sets and ATs that get heavier traffic, the answer will be a slight rustle as we spin in our graves.

If you ask a Claws scrapper, though, the answer is a psychosis-induced giddy jig.

If you ask the developers, the answer is, "We try to keep a close eye on everything in the game and impliment balance changes where needed. If any set or AT, regardless of popularity, is underperforming or under-represented, we try to discern why and make changes to bring it up to par."

Then those of us dedicated to TA/A come stumbling out of the mausoleum and make vaguely threatening gestures and groans. Then we get stuck in one spot for a while, looking around in confusion while we wait for our arms to recharge so we can gesture again and wonder why our groans aren't making the pain from being stabbed in the face go away.

[Primacy]

[ QUOTE ]
when the entire game is about damage and you do less than anyone else and if you have defenders and control - you don't need tanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true...but if you have defenders and tanks....you don't need controllers.....and if you have controllers and tanks, you don't need defenders.

I don't see this as an issue. No AT should be required.

[Kensei_NA]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Since Issue 2, Scrapper's main problem is GETTING dev attention.

Don't worry regen scrappers. :)

[/ QUOTE ]



Are you kidding? Some poor regen scrapper accidentaly taunted the devs, and the entire secondary hasn't been able to lose dev agro for the last handful of issues. :D

[Sampoerna]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers have gotten nerfed mercilessly (At first at the insistence of Tankers), have never gotten a new powerset and have the least number of power pools.

A lot of people play Scrappers because they are easy to solo and are fun. But it's not on account of dev love.

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly!!! I mean....EXACTLY!!!!


...did someone mention pie? :eek:

[Ohms__NA]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Scrappers have gotten nerfed mercilessly (At first at the insistence of Tankers), have never gotten a new powerset and have the least number of power pools.

A lot of people play Scrappers because they are easy to solo and are fun. But it's not on account of dev love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm, no. The devs tossed "the deal"* out the window for Scrappers. They've been trying to undo this [censored] up ever since. Hence, the "merciless nerfing".



*"The Deal" is the original concept that if you want to deal damage, your ability to withstand incoming damage is reduced and vice versa. The better you do the one, the less you are able to do the other.

[Negative_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
*"The Deal" is the original concept that if you want to deal damage, your ability to withstand incoming damage is reduced and vice versa. The better you do the one, the less you are able to do the other.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about Brutes? Or Dominators?

Brutes have both. Doms have neither.

[Ohms__NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*"The Deal" is the original concept that if you want to deal damage, your ability to withstand incoming damage is reduced and vice versa. The better you do the one, the less you are able to do the other.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about Brutes? Or Dominators?

Brutes have both. Doms have neither.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Deal was tossed out the window long before there were Brutes or Doms. And it's nothing to do with having "both". It's a sliding scale, the more offensive capacity you have, the less defensive you have and vice versa. Risk vs Reward. You take the greater risk (lower defensive capacity) you get the greater reward (higher offensive capacity). When the devs boosted Scrapper offensive capacity, capping out at 500% while Blasters, the "Offensive Juggernauts" capped at 400%, things went all to hell, and the devs have been trying to fix the mess ever since.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*"The Deal" is the original concept that if you want to deal damage, your ability to withstand incoming damage is reduced and vice versa. The better you do the one, the less you are able to do the other.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about Brutes? Or Dominators?

Brutes have both. Doms have neither.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brutes seem to have the same exemption that Scrappers got.

As for Dominators risk/reward, keep in mind that protection you can provide to your whole team counts more than protection that only helps you, as does AE count more than ST damage. Dominators have a primary that is the best team protection available (with pet!) and a secondary with some noteworthy AE. Plus, they are getting some kind of boost in I7, which means the devs feel they may have underpowered them.

[_Akry_]

Bah! Always talking about the bas ATs, never mentioning the Kheldians. Us much-ignored Peacebringers and Warshdes never even get thought of when deciding what to fix next.

I mean, sure we're "Epic" and all...but our resistances are around those of a Defender (human form), our health that of a Blaster (squid form), and our damage that of a tank (lobster form). And that's not mentioning that we get two-shoted by anyone with a purple-red gun! Now how are we suppossed to solo, hmmm?

And my point? Trying to prove that though you may think you may have it bad, someone always has it worse, you just never think of them because you're too busy thinking of yourself.

P.S., I think Kheldians are fine the way they are.

[Mind_Riot]

[ QUOTE ]
Every AT thinks it is getting short shrift. 3/5 have to be wrong about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It reminds me of the WoW boards--every damn class thinks that they're the worst. Shamans hate being shamans, hunters hate being hunters, mages....you get the point. I think it comes down to 2 basic things:
1. People take these game WAY TOO SERIOUSLY!
2. Everyone wants to feel like the underdog so that, if they do succeed, they can say "I got to 50 as a soloing Empahy/Psy Blast who only took Mental Blast and my only power pool is Leadership and I played with my nose because my hands got bitten off by ferrets."

[Veldt]

[ QUOTE ]
"We try to keep a close eye on everything in the game and impliment balance changes where needed. If any set or AT, regardless of popularity, is underperforming or under-represented, we try to discern why and make changes to bring it up to par."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes of course. In theorie.

The truth is that it's not exactly true. Some power sets need to be reworked. Some AT specific Inherent power need to be completely changed and updated. We all know that. Does it mean its going to happen? Probably not.

Why? Because players, as a whole, are asking for new stuff. New powers, new zones, new missions, new cotumes pieces, new new new!!! Most players are not interested in tweaks and updates. They want more for their money not a better TA set. And since that's what most players want, that's what the Devs are working on, that's what we're going to get with each and every issues.

And that's alright. Satisfied paying customers is what NCSoft is looking for. We are few, they are many. We may hate them, but they, not us, are what's keeping this game going.

[KombatJesus]

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Every AT thinks it is getting short shrift. 3/5 have to be wrong about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It reminds me of the WoW boards--every damn class thinks that they're the worst. Shamans hate being shamans, hunters hate being hunters, mages....you get the point. I think it comes down to 2 basic things:
1. People take these game WAY TOO SERIOUSLY!
2. Everyone wants to feel like the underdog so that, if they do succeed, they can say "I got to 50 as a soloing Empahy/Psy Blast who only took Mental Blast and my only power pool is Leadership and I played with my nose because my hands got bitten off by ferrets."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it seems that they are a bunch of nooblers, wanting the game to be easy on relentless. . lol. You see a lot of that crap on the Dominator boards.

[EvilRyu]

[ QUOTE ]
So I got bored and pondered.

You know how Tankers tend to complain that they often don't get anything from the Devs, while Scrappers seem to revel in the splendor that is yummy stuff?

I think it deals with population amounts of characters. The more played Archtypes are put into the queue ahead of others when it pertains to fixes and new stuff.

Yes? No? Pie?

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to get your facts straight. If anything the devs would seem like they hate scrappers not like them best. No AT has gone thru as many drastic changes and nerfs as much as scrapper have. Tanks are actually a little lower now than scrappers were back in issue 3 as far as stats go. If you look at all of what scrappers went thru can you still say they are liked more?
First we had the resist cap change a very unneeded change, this was before we had sonic defenders in the game so it was not like anyone short of an invul scrapper could actually still get 90% resist. So what was the point of the change? It is not stepping on the tankers toes because you are looking at 3 minutes at most for this so called G4WD-M0D3. That is hardly tanking at all. Along with this change we lost perma-unstoppable along with tankers so no net change there.

Next was the regen stealth nerf on intergration, all that partial enhancement heal crap. Next we lost perma-mog and perma-elude. Although this did not hurt regen too badly this change butchered SR. This made you have to take the passives and aid self if you wanted any chance of real survival. A little before this time they butchered invincebility, this power has been changed so many times I cant even tell if it works or not. If they could make it work on all damage -psionics like the way it did before issue 3 but not stack with itself then we might have something worthwhile. But as it is now you get little benefit from this power as a scrapper and alot of unneeded aggro. I could if they removed the aggro portion of the power from scrappers then it would not be stepping on tankers toes with that.

Finally we have issues 5 and 6. We lost almost everything that made us not squishie. As it is now the only thing that seperates us from the squishies is the sleep portion mez protection because some squishies can get higher resist and defense than we can. Issue 5 added damage buff change was just a slap in the face because they gave us damage they would be just taking it back in issue 6 when this ED madness came into the game.

So after reading this do you still see scrappers as being the favorite??? I know tankers when thru alot of things, I was there for that too because I got tired of being nerfed as a scrapper so I switched to tanking. Now that everyone other than stone-tankers are squishie or semi-squishie you might as well play as a squishie now.

[himura_NA]

I agree with a previous poster. If you don't like the archetype, stop complaining and go play something else that you will enjoy. That's what everyone does in life, tackle things where they can be productive. Now, if you want a challenge, then by all means, go for it, but don't use an archetype and then turn around after watching someone else do something, and say that you want to be just as effective. Things don't work that way.

I don't think there is favortism as well. It might be that some things are harder to correct than others. Either way, complaining does nothing, but eventually comes back to bite EVERYONE in the [censored], as it did with I6. You want balance? Someone gets gimped. Then they complain, and the cycle repeats itself.

I myself am partial to scrappers. I used to love playing a blaster, but found out I could take on groups of no more than 5 even cons. Orange lieutenants could easily kill me, and reds were big no-nos. It was a crawl. But I am enjoying the scrapper archetype.

I remember pre I6, where tankers would herd and fire tankers would kill +4 and +5 bosses without a sweat. I didn't think a darn thing, only cool, they'd be awesome to team up with. I thought they were overpowered, but my thought was, "Hey, maybe I should make one of 'em up."

It's funny actually. I could understand it if everyone only had one hero. Your complaints would then be legitimate. However, my response is, if you have ample time to complain about others, use that time to go a create another hero, and use it's advantages for yourself.

[srmalloy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Since Issue 2, Scrapper's main problem is GETTING dev attention.

Don't worry regen scrappers. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding? Some poor regen scrapper accidentaly taunted the devs, and the entire secondary hasn't been able to lose dev agro for the last handful of issues. :D

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with Regen as a secondary is that the manner in which it was implemented inherently doesn't scale; ignoring the deaths from taking a ton of damage in a single alpha strike, healing quickly as a defense breaks down to two categories: if you regen faster than you're taking damage, you look godlike, and if you take damage faster than you regen, you're dead if you can't drop opponents quick enough to move into the other category. Everything the devs have done to the powerset has just run the breakpoint back and forth, and there's a very fine line between survival and faceplanting (and it's far too easy to go quickly from 'fine' to 'debt' if you judge things wrong).

If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

[EvilRyu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Since Issue 2, Scrapper's main problem is GETTING dev attention.

Don't worry regen scrappers. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding? Some poor regen scrapper accidentaly taunted the devs, and the entire secondary hasn't been able to lose dev agro for the last handful of issues. :D

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with Regen as a secondary is that the manner in which it was implemented inherently doesn't scale; ignoring the deaths from taking a ton of damage in a single alpha strike, healing quickly as a defense breaks down to two categories: if you regen faster than you're taking damage, you look godlike, and if you take damage faster than you regen, you're dead if you can't drop opponents quick enough to move into the other category. Everything the devs have done to the powerset has just run the breakpoint back and forth, and there's a very fine line between survival and faceplanting (and it's far too easy to go quickly from 'fine' to 'debt' if you judge things wrong).

If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have even suggested this myself as a better fix for regen, it actually fits the name better than the current instant healing does. This would finally balance invuls and regens on similar ground. Our main toggle would still be integration because without it we would still die like invuls do when they get overwhelmed.

[Gangrel_NA]

"Hmmm Toggle IH". I thought I broke LOS on that Dev, but he wont stop chasing me with that damn nerf bat. "Hmmm ED" Must break arrgo, must find new sacrafice for nerf bat. "Hmmm AS" Thats right devs you dont see me anymore 'waves hand' "these are not the regens you are looking for" :p

[LunarKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Since Issue 2, Scrapper's main problem is GETTING dev attention.

Don't worry regen scrappers. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding? Some poor regen scrapper accidentaly taunted the devs, and the entire secondary hasn't been able to lose dev agro for the last handful of issues. :D

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with Regen as a secondary is that the manner in which it was implemented inherently doesn't scale; ignoring the deaths from taking a ton of damage in a single alpha strike, healing quickly as a defense breaks down to two categories: if you regen faster than you're taking damage, you look godlike, and if you take damage faster than you regen, you're dead if you can't drop opponents quick enough to move into the other category. Everything the devs have done to the powerset has just run the breakpoint back and forth, and there's a very fine line between survival and faceplanting (and it's far too easy to go quickly from 'fine' to 'debt' if you judge things wrong).

If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only because of the way most people have learned to play Regen. They jump in dumbly and if the enemy DPS isn't over their Regen rate they survive and if it is, they die. That's a silly, self defeating way to play Regen. Diving in, taking some damage, diving out and letting your Regen heal you, then diving in for more increases the "defense" Regen provides.

When the infamous Regen video was released (which admittedly had far greater problems), there was this huge outcry of people who criticized States for keeping away and letting his Regen heal him to finish off the mobs he did. I never understood this for a moment. Are we so dumb and spoiled that we expect to stand and press attack over and over until we win? It just seems silly to me that people keep talking about the binary nature of Regen. As far as I'm concerned, the "stand and kill" portion of Regen should be noticably lower than other sets. The kill and come back for more portion should be unrivaled by any other set in the game.

[BurningChick]

DOOOM!

Ya'll also got criticals early on and a damage buff in I5. Perma-elude was a buff to bring SR into line with the more powerful sets. Dark had its animations changed so the armours would stack. Katana had its animations redone so they weren't simply rehashes of broadsword's. The integration "stealth nerf" was due because the devs had mistakenly introduced a "stealth buff" -- the "nerf" was just a bug fix. And there are others I'm probably missing.

It's like the bubblers who say that detention field is the worst power ever, even though it replaced something worse -- a third single target def buff -- previously, (neg) energy and fire / cold were separate buffs.

It's easy for us to point out the bad, but we also tend to forget the good.

FWIW, I remember having my fire tanker (low 20s) in a Counicil mission just after BA got its taunt aura. I remember being in the middle of one spawn, having the blaster aggro a second around the corner, and running over to grab the aggro from him. And then ... it hit me. I had 10 mobs trailing behind me, 10 new mobs aggroed on me, and just about to BBQ everything with burn without having to use provoke. And nothing was hurting my tanker that HF couldn't handle.

I remember, very clearly, telling my teammates this was so good the devs couldn't possibly let it go on. And then they started giggling like school girls and suggested I start grabbing two or three spawns at a time for AoEs.

*shrugs*

And, no, I'm no fanboi; most of my posts have had the general theme of "[censored] were the devs thinking with FF ...". I'd just like to point out, before the thread gets locked, that sometimes the devs do buff ... and do listen to player feedback.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
When the infamous Regen video was released (which admittedly had far greater problems), there was this huge outcry of people who criticized States for keeping away and letting his Regen heal him to finish off the mobs he did. I never understood this for a moment. Are we so dumb and spoiled that we expect to stand and press attack over and over until we win? It just seems silly to me that people keep talking about the binary nature of Regen. As far as I'm concerned, the "stand and kill" portion of Regen should be noticably lower than other sets. The kill and come back for more portion should be unrivaled by any other set in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's extraordinarily biased and unfair. What people were objecting to was that Statesman was stacking the deck. Regen is a healing set. Sure, I could go into a mission, get just close enough to aggro a couple of mobs, kill them rinse and repeat. I would probably be immortal then.

But if you're going to nerf Regen for being overpowered, then DEMONSTRATE that it's overpowered. Often times the devs trot out the tired excuse that someone could just turn on their toggles and go through the mission without any thought. Well if that's true then don't use as your evidence a Regen using tactics. We said at the time that Regen was harder than most people gave it credit for. Statesman's video just showed that you CAN'T play like godmode.

Now as for the second point in this paragraph, you can't make Regen's "stand and kill" portion lower than the other sets and at the same time make it's "kill and come back" portion better. They work together. The devs tried just what you describe. Basically Regen has very little regeneration outside of its clicks. Far less protection than Invul and SR. But add in the Reconstruction and DP click and it goes above them. Only problem is that you can't make Recon and DP have such long recharge that you have to do hit and run because there is still some regen there to fill the game. Unless you're suggesting that the meagar constant regen we have now be nerfed further. Hell then you're basically back at Issue one regen where all you have is Dull Pain and Reconstruction.

[LunarKnight]

I didn't mean for that post to come off quite as bitter as it did, I just tire of the binary concept most people have with Regen. The immortality line just doesn't work for me, because there are ways around that. I just hate that so many people base the set purely on what you can do if you just stand there and swing.

I also didn't mean to make it sound like I think Regen needs to be nerfed further (though I said as much, didn't I...?). I think it's right about where I described. If I try to dive in and stand and kill, I tend to go down faster than my counterparts. When my health drops too low, however, I can get away to reduce the incoming damage, which puts me back in the fight almost immediately. All in all I think it works about right.

I just disagree with the immortality line. I agree it exists, I just disagree it makes Regen as binary as many would claim. I know far too many Regenners who use the immortality line as their cutoff point, and refuse to find ways to push past it, which frustrates me to no end.

[Flaming1]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean for that post to come off quite as bitter as it did, I just tire of the binary concept most people have with Regen. The immortality line just doesn't work for me, because there are ways around that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without naming names, the one poster with the "Regen is like Snowboarding -- you either look fabulous, or you're dead" line?

Yeah, that one always irritated me as being wholly incorrect. Even champion riders wobble here and there; the skill is in recovering.

[ QUOTE ]
I just disagree with the immortality line. I agree it exists, I just disagree it makes Regen as binary as many would claim. I know far too many Regenners who use the immortality line as their cutoff point, and refuse to find ways to push past it, which frustrates me to no end.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it telling that in the aftermath following I6, the Regen players of my acquaintance have seemingly congealed into two populations: the players who still manage to remain wholly survivable and use the set skillfully and purposefully, and those who eat floor at every possible opportunity.

Suffice it to say -- I find it to be evidence that the powerset was previously allowing any Joe Schmoe with a copycat build mini-Godhood status.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

agreeing with BurningChick re: EvilRyu!

How can you possibly discuss Scrapper history without mentioning criticals, and then lt/boss criticals?

I mean really.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it telling that in the aftermath following I6, the Regen players of my acquaintance have seemingly congealed into two populations: the players who still manage to remain wholly survivable and use the set skillfully and purposefully, and those who eat floor at every possible opportunity.

Suffice it to say -- I find it to be evidence that the powerset was previously allowing any Joe Schmoe with a copycat build mini-Godhood status.


[/ QUOTE ]

That was Issue 5. Issue 6 and ED did almost nothing to Regen. One of the more annoying things about ED is that people ascribe the benefits of Issue 5 (which was a painful, but well targeted general nerf) to it because the issues ran back to back.

And you can't question the skill of any Pre-I3 Regen IMO. Getting to 28 in the old days was one of the toughest things you could do in this game.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
I just disagree with the immortality line. I agree it exists, I just disagree it makes Regen as binary as many would claim. I know far too many Regenners who use the immortality line as their cutoff point, and refuse to find ways to push past it, which frustrates me to no end.

[/ QUOTE ]

On this point. To put it another way, what you're seeing is some players just playing to the difficulty level. There really isn't much reward in playing above the immortality line. With your combat abilities any decently built regen can handle Invincible.

To be honest, I don't push myself much anymore because there's no more mountains to climb. My Old School Regen soloed the Kronos Titan and a number of other AVs and Monsters. It was harder than most people think, but hey, it's just not possible anymore.

My new school Regen is doing well, the low level game is much easier than the first time. The set is all around more even in its power progression. So it's easy to learn quickly what you can and cannot do. I don't see why it's problematic to play to your abilities. In all Statesman's examples of play that's what he does.

When do Regen players just get to have fun and stop being accused of wanting godmode?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

and then you were a god after it. big woop!

[EvilRyu]

[ QUOTE ]
agreeing with BurningChick re: EvilRyu!

How can you possibly discuss Scrapper history without mentioning criticals, and then lt/boss criticals?

I mean really.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I did not discuss criticals is because that is something you almost no control over as to when and when you dont get them. You can only up your chances of crits by killing bosses, the only thing crits really did was push us more into the boss killing role because crits encourage boss killing. The second damage buff we got is pretty much non-existant now due to ED. You wont really see the benefit of it without outside buffs.

I never really considered regen overpowered even back in issue 2. I looked at it like this you go thru 28 levels of hell just to finally get a power that puts you on par with all the other scrappers. The early regen game sucked bad before intergration got healing. After the issue 3 changes I never did any task forces, soloed and dueoed with a close friend all the way to 28. Anytime I teammed before 28 it was instant death due to bad players. After the loss of toggle instant healing, I found myself relying on dull pain, instant healing and mog just to get by because your regular healing just is not good enough. This is where I see there is a problem with the set. Having to be so clicky just to live just does not fit my play style. I hate the fact that you have to count how long before your buffs expire to know if you need to run or not. Seriously with ED in place I can see that they should change a few things back, either make all of regen fully enhanceable or give us back toggle instant healing.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

On PAR?

No. Just no!

Additionally, you do know that click buffs are getting expiration warnings (blinking or something) in I7?

[aqshy2004]

[ QUOTE ]


And you can't question the skill of any Pre-I3 Regen IMO. Getting to 28 in the old days was one of the toughest things you could do in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never played a pre-issue3 controller solo before the pets I assume :D

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
and then you were a god after it. big woop!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you had to wait until you got your 31 slots for godhood, and by that time you earned it! :p

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And you can't question the skill of any Pre-I3 Regen IMO. Getting to 28 in the old days was one of the toughest things you could do in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never played a pre-issue3 controller solo before the pets I assume :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I did. Slower than the Regen, but safer. Of course mine is an Ill/FF (who still hasn't got to 50 despite being an I1 character) Being able to go PFF anytime you want and hold mobs makes for a slow but easy life. :D

And RANGE. Good lord, I just lol at the Blasters when they say range isn't a defense. I remember when I first started going up against Sorcerors with Frosty and Cute. The bastids would teleport and my girls would just turn to face them and most times would still be in range of their blasts/holds. Hurricane? What frikken hurricane.

[EvilRyu]

[ QUOTE ]
On PAR?

No. Just no!

Additionally, you do know that click buffs are getting expiration warnings (blinking or something) in I7?

[/ QUOTE ]
I read that somewhere on the forums too, but I will believe it when I see it. They better give us like a 15 second warning or it wont be worth it.

[PrincessGrace]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually most of us in Scrapper-land think Scrappers own.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is so true - we do think we own.

One interesting thing about the dominator & difficulty slider comments above - difficulties 1, 3, and 5 (once you are slotted for it anyway) are all easier than either 2 or 4. Level isn't as much of a threat to a dom as numbers. But then a dominator doesn't exactly have the ownage reputation of a scrapper.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any hope for MoG or Fire Armor in I7?

You know I'll never give up. Please just crush my dreams now. :D

[InnerSpike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]
So like, is this a good example of how limited CoH is?

InnerSpike

[Circeus_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, how does Spectral Wounds work? Because it seems like what's being suggested is just all damage vs the character with Instant Healing working like Spectral Wounds damage.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, how does Spectral Wounds work? Because it seems like what's being suggested is just all damage vs the character with Instant Healing working like Spectral Wounds damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spectral Wounds works like this. When an Illusionist hits a mob with SW they are actually hitting them with two effects:

Psi damage
Heal on a delayed timer

An Instant Healing that recovered X percentage of an attack would be different. There the server would track what damage affects a Regen with IH and then proc a heal after say 2 seconds of whatever percentage of the attack you got hit with.

That's much more complicated than how SW works. SW is just you healing the mobs after damaging them. The RP explanation is that the mob is recovering from the illusion.

[Kong_Fuu]

I think Spectral wounds is coded something like this:

Damage (Psy) -X + DoT 1 Tick/10 Seconds (Psi) 0.2*X

The problem with the Instant Healing suggestion is that it would require some way for a toggle to attach an effect to an attack generated by a hostile. I suspect that is the piece of tech that's "hard to do".

I'm also a little curious, if you slot Golgi's in Spectral Wounds, does it increase the amount of damage healed back? Are Heal enhancements merely damage enhancements that only work on "positive" damage where damage enhancements only work on "negative" damage?

AFAIK, there's no power in the game that changes the basic nature of another attack (adding/subtracting secondary components). All you can do is modify the parameters (+100% damage, -25% lethal damage, etc...).

Otherwise we might have cool powers that some Defender click power that attaches a 50% disorient effect to every attack another player makes for 10 seconds, or a "fire fists" like power that adds a fire DoT to every attack or something.

BTW devs, this would be really cool if you ever get around to implementing some way to do it. :)

[TheMightyStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually untrue. Simply feed the hamsters more.

[Bystander]

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise we might have cool powers that some Defender click power that attaches a 50% disorient effect to every attack another player makes for 10 seconds, or a "fire fists" like power that adds a fire DoT to every attack or something.

BTW devs, this would be really cool if you ever get around to implementing some way to do it. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be burly. I like ;)

[GadgetDon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it telling that in the aftermath following I6, the Regen players of my acquaintance have seemingly congealed into two populations: the players who still manage to remain wholly survivable and use the set skillfully and purposefully, and those who eat floor at every possible opportunity.

Suffice it to say -- I find it to be evidence that the powerset was previously allowing any Joe Schmoe with a copycat build mini-Godhood status.


[/ QUOTE ]

That was Issue 5. Issue 6 and ED did almost nothing to Regen. One of the more annoying things about ED is that people ascribe the benefits of Issue 5 (which was a painful, but well targeted general nerf) to it because the issues ran back to back.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Issue 5 changed Instant Healing from a toggle to a click, we were told by the devs that by six slotting recharge and perma hasten you could have IH up just under half the time. Just like when MoG's recharge was lengthened, we were told by the devs that six slotting recharge plus perma hasten could make the period between uses tolerable.

I6 was "you six slotted with the same enhancement? Mua ha ha ha ha"

[Friggin_Taser]

[ QUOTE ]

This is actually untrue. Simply feed the hamsters more.


[/ QUOTE ]

You hear that, Castle?

Boy, you just got SERVED!

Look what MightyScourge did there. Responding to your post, saying it's all lies, and then offering up no kind of evidence or even really speculation to back the accusation.

Obviously you've been had, Castle. There's no way you can fight back against an ironclad response like that. MightyScourge has found your hidden weakness: that you have no actual knowledge of the system you spend every day working with.

Boy, Castle got DISSED.

Keep feeding those hamsters, Castle, lest Scourge has to call yo' mama out for being so fat.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, how does Spectral Wounds work? Because it seems like what's being suggested is just all damage vs the character with Instant Healing working like Spectral Wounds damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[Corvox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is actually untrue. Simply feed the hamsters more.


[/ QUOTE ]

You hear that, Castle?

Boy, you just got SERVED!

Look what MightyScourge did there. Responding to your post, saying it's all lies, and then offering up no kind of evidence or even really speculation to back the accusation.

Obviously you've been had, Castle. There's no way you can fight back against an ironclad response like that. MightyScourge has found your hidden weakness: that you have no actual knowledge of the system you spend every day working with.

Boy, Castle got DISSED.

Keep feeding those hamsters, Castle, lest Scourge has to call yo' mama out for being so fat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ, you're unstable. It ever cross your mind that maybe Scourge was joking and he doesn't really believe that they have hamster working on the game?

[JohnPreston]

So where exactly is this thread at, in terms of subject?

[Clintonian]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus Christ, you're unstable. It ever cross your mind that maybe Scourge was joking and he doesn't really believe that they have hamster working on the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

from 'Letter of Resignation' thread, 04/12/06:
"I'm no angel, but the irony has always been that Taser became a little hair-triggered because of the coarse level of discourse in the forum, which he would routinely lash out at, lowering the level of discourse further, shortening his trigger further, wash-rinse-repeat until anyone without a pom-pom was a target and he completed the transformation into a funhouse mirror version of himself. It's amusing to see that the cycle will likely begin again. When are college finals? Right around when I7 is likely to go Live? Hm.

*writing note to self to get more popcorn at the end of the month*"

Taser's stated before that he thinks forumbase are children. Children like to see others act out and be crass. Who won favorite poster again? ;)

The Wheel turns anon
Turning, showing some motion
Only in a circle

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wouldn't balance the sets exactly, because there is an inherent deficit to taking damage as opposed to avoiding it.

I have lots of ways to balance regeneration with Defense and Resistance. So far, all of them suffer from one of four problems:


1. The suggestion makes regeneration work *too much* like either Defense or Resistance. We don't need a resistance clone that just has a regeneration sticker on it.

2. The suggestion uses such complex math that I could never convince the devs to implement it, and I'd be arguing its merits on the forums until Kingdom Come.

3. The suggestion runs afoul of what I understand to be certain critical limitations in how the game engine works. When I suggested replacing tohit buffs with accuracy buffs for bosses and +5s, say, I knew that that ability didn't exist, but I also knew all the components to make it work did exist, and therefore the modifications necessary were not out of the question. Some ideas (like creating an attack heal-back queue to implement the "instant healback" idea) require inventing mechanisms completely out of whole cloth, and probably not easy to construct ones in a real time game.

4. It actually works, and its actually implementable even with the current game engine, and its provably balanced. And 99% of all regen scrappers would probably want to kill me for even voicing it.


If I had a way to do it that avoided these four things, I would never stop talking about it.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would be a great idea to look into the posiblity of that tech being added. It would be a huge balance benefit for all healing in the game to work like this. Right now all forms of healing are way more powerful than needed, they seem to be working under the same ideals of the original Def numbers (extremely high so they were not useless against higher level enemies and trivializing normal play content).

A percentage of wound heals would be an amazing thing to have instead of the current implementation of healing, and i think its something worthy of being analized and implemented even if it takes long time to do.

[Friggin_Taser]

Ladies and gentleman, Clintonian has started his Sullen Cowboy Sour Grapes and Jealousy grand tour a little early this year.

Watch as he plays all his hits, including "Personal Attacks on Taser because he Personally Attacks Others" and "Not Without My High Horse."

Of course, we're ignoring the big picture here: that Castle got SERVED! Oh my god, when MightyScourge said the answer to everything was just to keep feeding those hamsters? Man, Castle, there's egg on your face! Bet you never thought of that, eh, Castle?

[Clintonian]

Such a silly boy you are. ;)

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wouldn't balance the sets exactly, because there is an inherent deficit to taking damage as opposed to avoiding it.

I have lots of ways to balance regeneration with Defense and Resistance. So far, all of them suffer from one of four problems:


1. The suggestion makes regeneration work *too much* like either Defense or Resistance. We don't need a resistance clone that just has a regeneration sticker on it.

2. The suggestion uses such complex math that I could never convince the devs to implement it, and I'd be arguing its merits on the forums until Kingdom Come.

3. The suggestion runs afoul of what I understand to be certain critical limitations in how the game engine works. When I suggested replacing tohit buffs with accuracy buffs for bosses and +5s, say, I knew that that ability didn't exist, but I also knew all the components to make it work did exist, and therefore the modifications necessary were not out of the question. Some ideas (like creating an attack heal-back queue to implement the "instant healback" idea) require inventing mechanisms completely out of whole cloth, and probably not easy to construct ones in a real time game.

4. It actually works, and its actually implementable even with the current game engine, and its provably balanced. And 99% of all regen scrappers would probably want to kill me for even voicing it.


If I had a way to do it that avoided these four things, I would never stop talking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think too much.

How many times do I have to tell you.

Give SR and Invul a reconstruction like self-heal; get drunk; profit.

You never explain why that won't fix the problem better than any super smarty pants complicated nonsense you would come up with. :p

[Click_Beetle]

[ QUOTE ]
Every AT thinks it is getting short shrift. 3/5 have to be wrong about that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the above means the Kheldians are right. :D

[Friggin_Taser]

So Clint, if, as you said, "Taser thinks all the forumbase are children" and, as you said, "Children love to watch people act out and be crass," and I was voted favorite forum poster...

There's no way I can read that sentence that doesn't make it sound like you are insulting the forum, not me. So, as you put it, I was only voted favorite poster because the forumbase are children that love to watch someone act up and be crass? And even then, you had to stretch something I said (that "some" forum posters act like children) to try to attack me.

It's like you have an elitist shovel you keep digging yourself deeper and deeper wtih.

[Click_Beetle]

Where are these awards people keep talking about?

[Friggin_Taser]

Hero Choice Award Winners (http://cityofheroes.com/community/choice_awards_winners2.html)

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every AT thinks it is getting short shrift. 3/5 have to be wrong about that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the above means the Kheldians are right. :D

[/ QUOTE ]

/em slaps hand to chest

Ooooooooo. Ya got me

/em kippers onto back melodramatically, twitches legs, feigns death

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where are these awards people keep talking about?

[/ QUOTE ] Hero Choice Award Winners (http://cityofheroes.com/community/choice_awards_winners2.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems that the inability to sense a joke is contageous.

Soon, I, too, may be unable to detect sarcasm.

Oh, the humanity!

[Friggin_Taser]

It's the penguins, I tell you.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the penguins, I tell you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh! The Penguinity!

[Clintonian]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way I can read that sentence that doesn't make it sound like you are insulting the forum, not me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never said or implied that the forumbase is primarily children. I just commented about who your voting block might be heavily weighted with.

That's not elitist. That's recognizing who your demo is. I think it's great. Children deserve entertainment. You can always say, "I was doing it for the kids, god bless 'em!"

[Satanic_Hamster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is actually untrue. Simply feed the hamsters more.


[/ QUOTE ]

You hear that, Castle?

Boy, you just got SERVED!

Look what MightyScourge did there. Responding to your post, saying it's all lies, and then offering up no kind of evidence or even really speculation to back the accusation.

Obviously you've been had, Castle. There's no way you can fight back against an ironclad response like that. MightyScourge has found your hidden weakness: that you have no actual knowledge of the system you spend every day working with.

Boy, Castle got DISSED.

Keep feeding those hamsters, Castle, lest Scourge has to call yo' mama out for being so fat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ, you're unstable. It ever cross your mind that maybe Scourge was joking and he doesn't really believe that they have hamster working on the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a reasonable belief.

--------------------
Currently listening to Johnny Winter's Captured Live

[TheMightyStorm]

Yes, it *is*, and *I* for one would appreciate it, if you did not sully my belief structure by assuming I'm joking. I am dead serious when I say that Castle does not have the force of will, or the *desire* to improve the game by feedings the hamsters more. He is working in an antiquarian view of lean economics, hoping to squeeze every ounce of computing power out of starving hamsters. It's immoral, inhamstrane, and ultimately obstructive to the People's Revolution.

I think this Mr. Taser (if that is his real name) is simply willing to allow varmints to suffer, as long as it does nothing to disrupt his strange Darwinian vision of the marketplace. Of course, it wouldn't *hurt* him at all to feed these hamsters more, but idealogically, he cannot suffer a system in which all hamsters are well fed. He no doubt believes they eat their young because they *enjoy* it, rather than out of a desperate parental need to save their offspring from a life spent in servitude to Cryptic Studios; Graveyard of Hamsters.

[BurningChick]

*boggles*

You know why I came back to CoH? Folks like TMS and Taser make me seem downright normal. Well, less odd. Sorta'.

:)

[Captain Fabulous]

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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then, how does Spectral Wounds work? Because it seems like what's being suggested is just all damage vs the character with Instant Healing working like Spectral Wounds damage.

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Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'know I was giving this some thought and came up with an interesting idea. Even better I think it can be done with current tech (and it just might work even!)

Ok, the idea is to rework instant healing so that it heals back a percentage of damage taken. Not possible you say with current tech. Spectal Wounds does this, but as an attack, not a defense.

But what if upon the casting of instant healing a "pet" was created -- invisible and non-targetable -- whose sole purpose was to heal the caster whenever it took damage? The pet would be programmed to detect damage taken by the owner and heal accordingly, or share the damage taken by the owner and heal itself and it's owner.

All of this I believe is currently-available tech. The non-targetable pets are (burn, tar patch, caltrops, etc.), invisibility certainly is, and upcoming MM tech allows pets in defensive mode to take damage whenever their owner does.

All of this would be "behind the scenes" and invisible to the user -- all they would see is regaining health after taking damage.

Whadda ya think Castle? It just might work, no?

[Steele_Magnolia]

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Depends on your perspective. If you ask a TA/A whether the developers pay more attention to the sets and ATs that get heavier traffic, the answer will be a slight rustle as we spin in our graves.

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Lumi, you are the Cassandra of the forums... you speak truth and bear the agony of being castigated for it.

On that note, another voice of clarity:

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And, frankly, is that treatment worse than the Blasters who have had their secondaries acknowledged as sub-par for over a year and to date have received two tweaks, both unrelated to the secondaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically point out two blaster PRIMARIES that need some love, one shared with our defender sisters (Archery) and one that's been around since day one (Assault Rifle). After mid 20s or so, playing these primaries is like hacking into a bank vault with a blunted butter knife. In Archery's case, add in ridiculously slow animation times and endurance costs... and don't give me the Dev's line of "we couldn't do it better". Just look at Wyvern or even the most piddly of Red Cap minions for comparison.

Devices, the secondary most often paired with it, has 3 powers (Taser, Smoke Grenade, Time Bomb) that are better replaced IMO with any other power pool power, including the mocked Jump Kick and Flurry of Blows.

Don't even start me on Defiance. Just don't go there.

Every AT needs some love, PvE is home on Friday night while PvP gets all the hot dates... only to know regret in the morning.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

How the crap would it know how much damage the person is taking. That's new tech. And the power would stop working when you zoned.

[The_Alt_oholic]

Wow. Have to reply to this one on the Elude thing.
My level 50 is a Katana/SR scrapper. I took Elude and then respec'ed it out almost immediately. It wasn't any better than my other defenses and it saps your end when it turns off. Useless power at this point. I had heard that this power was incredible before the nerfing - it must have been a better defense/resist before.
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[off subject]
Only more useless power is team teleport. Planned on getting it with one of my defenders, but after being dragged to the foot [insert hand-to-hand range] of a Winter Lord more than once by a "helpful" teammate - I learned my lesson. Worst part of it is - "accept teleport" toggle doesnt' work for "team teleport" at least it didn't the last time I checked.
I wonder how many characters actually have "team teleport"....I still think "recall team" is a better power than "teleport team"....too bad it isn't an option

[Tyrantula]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the deal:

Statesman came into the Tanker forum after Issue 2 and APOLOGIZED for ignoring Tankers.

Issue 3 came and a few items were fixed like movement while in unstoppable and Tanks were OVER buffed in ways that we did not ask for.

Tanks gave VERY good ways to improve us without being overpowered and now we got ignored again.

Next came the Issues 4, 5, 6 and ED which in many ways not only unwound all the Buffs from Issue 3 they put us lower than Issue 2 in damage and defense.

So many of the older tanks have a history of what happens in the gameplay when the entire game is about damage and you do less than anyone else and if you have defenders and control - you don't need tanks.

What happens is a slow bleed to other ATs.

Tanks are common early on but by the time you get to the 20's they are much less so. Why? Boredom. Damage is low and they level slow once out of the teens.

Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to concur with a few of your statements here. I have honestly tried to enjoy playing tanks, but I can't. Now, on the flip side I love playing Brutes. After getting my first one up in his 20-30's, I thought that "this is how tanks SHOULD be"

(I have two Brutes at current cap: Em/Ea and Ss/Inv)

I think my highest tank I had ever made was in his low twenties. I just really seemed dissapointed in the set. I like being the shield for the team, but contributing to the teams damage wasn't really in the books. Deleted.

[Captain Fabulous]

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How the crap would it know how much damage the person is taking. That's new tech. And the power would stop working when you zoned.

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Current tech allows pets to know if you take damage. Many of them will heal you (dark servant, MM bots) when they sense you've taken damage. The issue is figuring out how much, but that's just simple subtraction.

Another way to accomplish this is for the pet to take the same damage taken by the owner. Then it would know how exactly how much damage was taken (I7 MM tech).

If the power is done as a toggle zoning is not an issue, it just resets like all other toggles do.

If it's done as a click power you would have to force it to respawn after zoning. As all other pets to date don't do this I can't say for sure if it's possible, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could be done.

[Silverblade_NA]

3 pages (6 if you have fewer threads per page) and it became a regen thread? Heh. :)

Mightn't it be a good idea to just rework *all* of the defense sets, anyway?

Some are just too much one-trick ponies (SR/Regen). Some have a strange variety of holes in them (Fire, Dark Armor). Some just act plain weird (Ice's slows), imho. Some have been tinkered with so much it's barely recognizeable what they're supposed to do really (Invulnerability - Defense set? Resist set? Self Buffs and Self Debuffs cancelling each other out? Self Heal and Self Damage?).

Most defense sets are defined by their weaknesses, not really by their strengths. That's somehow odd.

IMO right now, Regen is the "best" Defense set right now because it has the least amount of wonkiness built into it.

[BurningChick]

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Current tech allows pets to know if you take damage. Many of them will heal you (dark servant, MM bots) when they sense you've taken damage. The issue is figuring out how much, but that's just simple subtraction.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, at least not for DS. DS goes through some byzantine form of attack chain. I.e., I've seen him fire off petrifying gaze instead of twilight grasp when both him and my DDD, standing next to each other, are below max HPs. And I've then seen him fire off TG after my DDD has once we're both at full. And I've never, ever seen him fire off two TG's in a row.

Pets don't fire off their powers based on what makes sense at the time, the do some kind of chain, with a bit of randomness (possibly caused by recharge times) thrown in for flavour.

[Captain Fabulous]

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Current tech allows pets to know if you take damage. Many of them will heal you (dark servant, MM bots) when they sense you've taken damage. The issue is figuring out how much, but that's just simple subtraction.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, at least not for DS. DS goes through some byzantine form of attack chain. I.e., I've seen him fire off petrifying gaze instead of twilight grasp when both him and my DDD, standing next to each other, are below max HPs. And I've then seen him fire off TG after my DDD has once we're both at full. And I've never, ever seen him fire off two TG's in a row.

Pets don't fire off their powers based on what makes sense at the time, the do some kind of chain, with a bit of randomness (possibly caused by recharge times) thrown in for flavour.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I've seen otherwise. I'm not saying that DS drops everything to immediately heal, but I've never seen it cast a heal without it or someone in its vicinity needing health.

If it cast a TG right after you did it's very likely it was queued up and yours just happened to go off first. If it came some time after yours, unless you were standing there watching both your and its health bars you can't say for certain that neither of you weren't even 1 hp below max.

And the bottom line is you're not really qualified to say they don't work that way, at least no more than I am to say absolutely that they do. Feel free to disagree, but honestly, your opinion doesn't really mean much.

[Zeppline]

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This is actually untrue. Simply feed the hamsters more.


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You hear that, Castle?

Boy, you just got SERVED!

Look what MightyScourge did there. Responding to your post, saying it's all lies, and then offering up no kind of evidence or even really speculation to back the accusation.

Obviously you've been had, Castle. There's no way you can fight back against an ironclad response like that. MightyScourge has found your hidden weakness: that you have no actual knowledge of the system you spend every day working with.

Boy, Castle got DISSED.

Keep feeding those hamsters, Castle, lest Scourge has to call yo' mama out for being so fat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, Whats your problem? This isnt even and insult, I really am curious on what your problem is with this guy? He makes a small joke, and you do the "HAHA sarcasm is SOOO funny" thing. I mean, do you hate every one? Are you just a jerk? Or can you not detect sarcasm? or something else I havent even concieved yet?

[BurningChick]

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You're entitled to your opinion, but I've seen otherwise. I'm not saying that DS drops everything to immediately heal, but I've never seen it cast a heal without it or someone in its vicinity needing health.

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Ummm ...

Fluffy also casts TG when he's off on his own in a corner, at full health, with no teammates near him. I've also seen three Fluffies stand around a minion, perma-holding him, and lighting off a whole lot of TGs with no one possibly taking damage. Why? 'Cause there's no rhyme or reason behind what he does beyond a rote cycling of powers.

Call me out on it, but somewhere buried in the defender guides is a list of how he cycles powers ... and it matches up with the experiences of most DD players.

Edit: you realize that dark's heal (and, therefore, Fluffy's) requires a target, right? It can only be fired off in combat, and that might explain he you feel Fluffy only fires it when needed since it's rare, but not exceptional, for there to be a situation where he'll use TG without anying needing health.

[Captain Fabulous]

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You're entitled to your opinion, but I've seen otherwise. I'm not saying that DS drops everything to immediately heal, but I've never seen it cast a heal without it or someone in its vicinity needing health.

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Ummm ...

Fluffy also casts TG when he's off on his own in a corner, at full health, with no teammates near him. I've also seen three Fluffies stand around a minion, perma-holding him, and lighting off a whole lot of TGs with no one possibly taking damage. Why? 'Cause there's no rhyme or reason behind what he does beyond a rote cycling of powers.

Call me out on it, but somewhere buried in the defender guides is a list of how he cycles powers ... and it matches up with the experiences of most DD players.

Edit: you realize that dark's heal (and, therefore, Fluffy's) requires a target, right? It can only be fired off in combat, and that might explain he you feel Fluffy only fires it when needed since it's rare, but not exceptional, for there to be a situation where he'll use TG without anying needing health.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you trying to say that you know with 100% certainty that DS has no ability to sense when its owner or itself has taken damage and queue TG in response to that? Just because it cycles thru its powers in a certain way and fires off TG as part of that cycle doesn't necessarily mean it can't.

Fact is you can't say anything for certain as your opinion is based solely upon your own observations or the observations of others. This makes your opinion no more or less valid than mine (which is also based upon observation), and certainly has no bearing at all on my suggested method for implementing a proposed change in instant healing.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Pets can detect whether people are damaged or not, But it cant detect nor track how much damage was dealt to you, in what order, how long ago... that would require new tech.

[Captain Fabulous]

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Pets can detect whether people are damaged or not, But it cant detect nor track how much damage was dealt to you, in what order, how long ago... that would require new tech.

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In I7 MM pets will gain the ability to absorb a portion of the damage taken by their owner -- so they'll know all those things. The tech does exist. We just haven't seen it yet.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

They wont know anything. That damage will be calculated by the mastermind and handed out to the pets.

[BurningChick]

And you're right and the dev is wrong :eek:

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
And you're right and the dev is wrong :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'know what, I'm not going to argue with either of you. You think it's not possible. Fine. You win. It's not possible. There, happy?

God forbid someone actually make a suggestion without getting ripped a new [censored]. Oh trust me, next time I'll just send a PM directly to a dev and skip the middle man.

Maybe some day I'll grow up to be as smart as the two of you :eek:

[CrushingAbyss]

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Maybe some day I'll grow up to be as smart as the two of you

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Well from reading through this thread, I'd say your chances are slim. But give it a shot anyway.

[Puretone]

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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the idea I liked the best when regen nerfs were coming down the pike. I hope it's still being considered as the tech becomes available.

Even before Integration had a heal factor, I commonly would run missions solo with just Int, reconstruction and dull pain. I think where many regens got the 'stand and fight' mentality is from having to deal as much damage as quickly as possible to forestall faceplanting. Until instant healing, we were melee blasters that healed and recovered end faster.

Unlike the other sets, Regen didnt (and still doesnt) have the mitigation the other sets do beyond what the primary provides. What we do have is less downtime between those fights.

Considering that the majority of the many powers that cause -regen cause -speed as well, it would be nice if instant healing gave us protection from -speed if not from -regen. It seems a fair trade to me for having those -regen/-speed powers always hit.

[Max_Firepower]

[ QUOTE ]

Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logic error?

Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.

Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...

Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?

Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...

[BurningChick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logic error?

Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.

Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...

Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?

Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...

[/ QUOTE ]
In simpler terms:

Spectral wounds is one specially coded attack.

To make the "damage recovery" thing fly, every single damaging power in the game would have to be recoded to potentially heal back damage. For one set. Based on whether or not a particular power is activated. In fact, it would probably necessitate a complete reworking of the entire damage system, both PvE and PvP. You'd have to work in a blaster's unresistable damage. You'd have to work the enhancements. You'd have some god-awful server-side processing to do with DoT attacks like burn and rain of fire.

Yeesh.

And your attempt at some weird kind of Jamaican accent to make your point clearer to _Castle_ comes off as bigotted trolling, suggesting that folks of Carribean heritage just aren't up to your high standards of intellect.

Thread getting locked in 10 ... 9 ... 8 ...

[Captain Fabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logic error?

Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.

Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...

Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?

Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...

[/ QUOTE ]
In simpler terms:

Spectral wounds is one specially coded attack.

To make the "damage recovery" thing fly, every single damaging power in the game would have to be recoded to potentially heal back damage. For one set. Based on whether or not a particular power is activated. In fact, it would probably necessitate a complete reworking of the entire damage system, both PvE and PvP. You'd have to work in a blaster's unresistable damage. You'd have to work the enhancements. You'd have some god-awful server-side processing to do with DoT attacks like burn and rain of fire.

Yeesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you were closed to the idea of doing it another way. But we don't know anyone like that, do we?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Spectral wounds doesn't track anything. It works like any other power.
It does this:
Power activated
Animation starts
X seconds after animation starts, deal Z damage
Y seconds after animation starts, heal ~Z damage.

the same as anything else.

[LunarKnight]

I'd say the best thing they could do with IH is make it like the Peacebringer Quantum Flight. Put it back as a toggle, just as it was before, but after a certain amount of time, start ramping up the END cost until the player is forced to shut it off. It could be used more often, but the END drain would make it far harder to abuse.

[Max_Firepower]

[ QUOTE ]
Spectral wounds doesn't track anything. It works like any other power.
It does this:
Power activated
Animation starts
X seconds after animation starts, deal Z damage
Y seconds after animation starts, heal ~Z damage.

the same as anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daddy, thanks for being able to read and differentiate between silliness (aka MULTI-cultural English mashing - since NO errors are made in learning languages), and the simple question of - So... why not?

Isn't every hit BY an Illusion controller w/Wounds 'tracked?;

How is that different from tracking every hit ON a Regen Scrapper?

I think to consider this, you don't think in terms of one battle or matchup, but of zones/map loads... and all the toons on that map.

In my (reputedly bigoted) humble opinion.. of course.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
You think too much.

How many times do I have to tell you.

Give SR and Invul a reconstruction like self-heal; get drunk; profit.

You never explain why that won't fix the problem better than any super smarty pants complicated nonsense you would come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]


1. There's no place to put it without restructuring the sets.

2. With the right values, it might make SR equal to regen, but would still make SR too slot-heavy compared to regen.

3. Its very difficult to balance with Invuln, because high +RES + fast heal is much more powerful than +DEF + fast heal; both can have equal damage mitigation, but Invuln will have the best alpha-strike/alpha-volley survivability.

4. It combines too strongly with Elude, and I think the devs don't really want to create an easier way to Elude+AidSelf than there already is. It combines almost as strongly with Unstoppable, and can instantly bail you out of the unstoppable crash.


Putting a half-strength Dull Pain into Practiced Brawler (my current best quick-fix) is probably better for SR. Adding a small amount of scaling RES into invincibility (very small, very very very small) would be better for Invuln. Assuming you were trying to send both sets upward towards Regen.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logic error?

Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.

Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...

Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?

Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...

[/ QUOTE ]

What Castle is saying is that the behavior of Spectral Wounds is tied to the power; all Spectral Wounds attacks behave this way no matter who they land on.

What you are saying is any game that can track SW attacks on everyone, ought to be able to track all attacks on someone - that it shouldn't be impossible to code.

And that's exactly what Castle is saying: it would require "new tech" - additional coding - to make such a thing work. At the moment, the game engine doesn't work that way.

If you think you understand how the game engine is written, and can judge how easy or difficult it would be to alter a fundamental piece of it, try exercising that keen mind on determining why toxic defense doesn't exist yet. I've suggested quite a number of ways to make it work myself: all have been judged to be problematic in one way or another.

[Max_Firepower]

How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?

I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?

[Max_Firepower]

And for those wanting a heal w/SR? Take Dark Melee... Debuffs their Acc, Siphon Life is a Heal/attack and Dark Regen is a EndRecovery/Debuff attack... And THAT is SYNERGY

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?

I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not giving an excuse. He's saying it would require changing the engine, and it would take a lot of work to change the engine. You can toss the IDEA around, but its worth noting for context that it doesn't matter how good of an idea it is, if it cannot justify its own cost to implement. So the idea either has to be really really really good, or demonstrated to be really really really necessary. Something worth keeping in the back of your mind while kicking the idea around.


I don't see the hypocrisy in pointing out that a particular idea has an extremely high hurdle to overcome before its likely to be seriously considered as an option.

[Bunny_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?

I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?

[/ QUOTE ]

To my own employers, I tell them I can develop just about anything for them, it's just gonna cost time and money. What happens after having actually built something, you've made architectural assumptions about how it all works together. There's no getting away from this, because things need to work together, and not just be a hodgepodge of code. Eventually, you make design choices that make certain future design choices nearly impossible to implement.

What _Castle_ is saying is, "No, the current architecture does not admit that concept easily."

Yes, it's a simple basic concept. We have round pegs that go into round holes, right? Well, let's just code up some square pegs that go into square holes, and it'll all work. ... The problem being, there are no square holes. The holes are all round. Every powerset in the game works with round holes. The square peg idea is VERY elegant, but it requires:

1) Adding lots of square holes.
2) Adding square pegs to go into the square holes.
3) Making sure the round pegs don't accidentally go into the square holes
4) Making sure the square pegs don't get forced into the round holes.

This is too much work to the entire game to make one power work better (and it might not actually be "better" after all, once playtesting shows its flaws).

Now, you might think I'm exaggerating with respect to the square vs round bit. To you, perhaps it looks all round, and you don't see what the big deal is. This is one of the most common debates between developers when designing software. When two devs disagree at this level, it takes a while to hash things out. We're outside that circle, looking in, and we're not in a position to tell the architects of the game that the architecture isn't really what they think it is. It might be fair to say that _Castle_'s explanation lacks detail, but it is unfair to dismiss his remarks as an "excuse."

_Castle_ gave us valuable information: that he'd thought of just this idea, and then was shown how much work it would take to implement it. This tells us that, hey, the devs have already considered this idea, and one thought it was pretty decent, but it was fairly obvious to all of them that implementing it would be grossly impractical.

[Puretone]

Thanks Bunny Man, that was a very elegant explanation of the problem that puts it on an understandable level for me.

My hope is that as new architectures are added to the game, that this idea may find that 'square hole' to at least try it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd say the best thing they could do with IH is make it like the Peacebringer Quantum Flight. Put it back as a toggle, just as it was before, but after a certain amount of time, start ramping up the END cost until the player is forced to shut it off. It could be used more often, but the END drain would make it far harder to abuse.



[/ QUOTE ]
There's an interesting thought. You would of course need a relatively long recharge on it still. I wonder if taking damage could also ramp up the END cost.

[Starsman]

Yesterday i went on thinking while driving home and suddenly this idea hit me (i sent this as a PM to Castle):

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Add an invisible bar similar to Fury
This bar gets filled every time you take damage; the amount it gets filled with is equal to a percentage of the percentage damage taken (not redundant I mean += Dmg/HP * RegenBuff)
The percentage is determined by the regen buffs that are up at the moment
Every second this fury like bar will determine the percentage of health you will gain back, then reset.
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Example:

You have a base of 200 HP and 40% healback buff

You take 80 points of damage
Your HP is now 120
Your invisible HealBack bar goes up by 80/200 * 0.40 = 16%
A second goes by and you get a mini self heal of 200 * .16 = 32hp
You end with 152hp

If this was possible, it would be able to make all regen buffs into resistance equivalents, just like Def was finally made equivalent to resistance. The fact that large amounts of damage in one blow can kill fast a regen I think is offset by the fact that he has totally universal mitigation with basically no weaknesses, you may also want to make the regen a bit more stronger than the average resist equivalence just to compensate that too.

The question again: is this technique possible with the current engine? I'm not asking if this idea is something you would even consider, I'm just curious if the current engine can do this.

I know the game tracks damage done right now for damage badge purposes, and we know many conditions can be used to fill a bar like the fury and domination bars.

[Max_Firepower]

Good answer, Bunny.

I didn't get the "we have round pegs, those are square holes" situation.

Makes more sense now. Thanks, very much.