Aid self getting nerfed?

[Rantok_Slayer]

DawnSlayer on page 5 2nd post down in this post, http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5273427&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5&vc=1 Preaty much said Aid self is getting nerfed is this true and if so how will it get nerfed.
Thank you.

[Zikar]

First I've heard of it, and I'm usually plugged into the collective...

[Pwning_Ghost]

if it gets nerfed then those damn stalker hunting /SR scrappers will die a bit faster! WOOT

[Delerious]

This goes beyond uncool if they nerf aid self. Aid self makes /EA a good set and helps out SR scrappers and will help out /ELEC. It's not fair to sets that don't have a built-in heal.

No good will come from nerfing aid self.

And for you stalkers, this hurts you too if you happen to be SR or /EA and use aid self. Think about that.

This better be a damn rumor and nothing more.

I hope Dawnslayer has some real proof other than causing mass panic...

STOP THE DAMN NERFING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spin_Doctor]

I kind of doubt that they are nerfing aid self, seing as how they buffed it an issue or 2 ago to get more poeple to take it. (That buff was to add a bit of disorient resistance to it).

[_UBV_]

Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... ;)

[Dawnslayer]

I based what I said off of an old post by Castle where he said he felt Aid Self healed too much for it's recharge, and bieng a pool power, and said he'd 'look into it.' And I've been around for a while, and immidiately saw 'nerf.'

However, since then he also talked about the power after making that statement. He spoke of it in relation to healing flames and said Aid Self wasn't being changed.

So. No worries.

[Sharpened]

Castle has stated that he thinks aid self is too good.
Castle has also stated that it is not getting nerfed in I7 - obviously, anything is subject to change.

I don't think it's getting nerfed anytime soon - but I wouldnt be shocked if its recharge gets lengthened eventually.

[Delerious]

I know I would be seriously upset over that because it's not an imbalancing power.

It heals a solid chunk, but no more than many good heal already built into sets, AND you have to use up a power selection to get it and 6 slot it to really make it good.

Thinking on that, ya, probably not gonna get nerfed. It would do nothing positive for "game balance" by nerfing it.

People shouldn't start rumors. :mad:

[Delerious]

Double post.

[soulless_NA]

perhaps with such an obvious title on this post...maybe a red name can come out and play before this spreads to the tanker forum

[UberGuy]

I think there are a lot of reasons it doesn't make sense to nerf it. It's a comparable heal "magnitude" to the non-Healing Flames heals, but it has significant drawbacks.

The absolute wost thing I think it would be reasonable for them to do would be to set Aid Self's recharge such that with one recharge it was equal to to that of a power like Reconstruction's recharge with two recharges.

Where do I get that metric? Aid Self is very hard to use in a pinch unless you at least two-slot it for interrupt reduction. That leaves one slot for recharge, and three for heal.

Honestly, I still don't think that makes the powers par. Aid Self still can't be reliably activated in a damage field, when affected by a fast DoT, or under fire by lots of foes. Its animation is long, and while interrupt reducers allow you to move while it's finishing, you can't use any powers. Contrast that to Reconstruction, which can be used on the move, and has minimal drawback aside from weapon redraw.

No, once they fix Healing Flames, I think Aid Self will be relatively safe. I don't think it should be nerfed at all, and if it is, I would campaign strongly that it be minor.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
Castle has stated that he thinks aid self is too good.
Castle has also stated that it is not getting nerfed in I7 - obviously, anything is subject to change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked _Castle_ about Aid Self (actually, i was pointing out disparities between ATs and using Aid Self as an example) a few months ago. His response was that he felt that it was balanced.

Good enough for me.

[Delerious]

Well that makes me feel better.

I was feeling a little sad for my /EA brute and upcoming /ELEC brute.

[Castle]

Nope, not changed.

[Blastblaze]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I love you.

[P_Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that's plutonic.

[MrQuizzles]

I didn't nerf Aid Self, do you love me, too?

[Mr_Vice]

Hurray...my energy/energy brute needs this to survive

[Ohms__NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Castle has stated that he thinks aid self is too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too good? Huh?

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Castle has stated that he thinks aid self is too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too good? Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the quote they're talking about I think:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames :(

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle want to nerf Aid Self but Geko won't let him! (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&Foru m=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main =5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post5101414)

[The_Foo]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]
...yet?

DundunDUN!

[Chase_Arcanum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that's plutonic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Platonic... PLATONIC... named after PLATO: of or pertaining to transcending physical desire and tending toward the purely spiritual or ideal: platonic love...

As opposed to PLUTO: the god of the dead and ruler of the underworld... Plutonic love would thus be....

eeewwww...

The sick.... ugh...

They'll let ANYONE post to these forums, it seems.

[Nemo_Utopian]

in love with persephony?

[teh_bmy]

What's that shirt say?

Necrophiliac
Sit back, relax, and crack open a cold one.

[Nemo_Utopian]

plutonic love is the reason we have winter.at least acording to mytholigy :)

[Speed_Bump]

I thought that Plutonic was "Of or pertaining to Mickey Mouse's dog."

[MindGiant_CS]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

/shameless plug

So, you're buffing alkaloid, right? :)
It does have good range and isn't interuptable, but the animation time is long, the heal is weak, and the endurance drain is large.

*Laughs at another item being thrown into Castle's inbox*

[JohnPreston]

_Castle_ said he wanted it nerfed but no pending nerfs were occuring for it.

[_mr3_]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought that Plutonic was "Of or pertaining to Mickey Mouse's dog."

[/ QUOTE ]
yep, that's what the dictionary in my world says too.

(more on-topic: i refuse to look up 'self-fulfilling prophesy')

[Local_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Castle. I love it when you do that -- just drop into a thread and squelch unfounded rumours.

. . . or drop hints . . . .

So, now it is safe to respec my Tank into Aid Self? Good!

[Dawnslayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Castle. I love it when you do that -- just drop into a thread and squelch unfounded rumours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except they weren't unfounded, were they...

[_Ilr_]

[ QUOTE ]
I based what I said off of an old post by Castle where he said he felt Aid Self healed too much for it's recharge, and bieng a pool power, and said he'd 'look into it.' And I've been around for a while, and immidiately saw 'nerf.'

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY would he ever have a reason to say that? Y'know it's not just Scrappers and Stalkers that use this power, a number of Defenders, Controllers, and Dominators especially have to rely on it for not just healing but stun resist too. So many pure support builds rely on it, Even my Ice-Tank. Shoot he'd never a made it to 30 if he wasn't seeing big numbers when he used Aid-Self. Ask anyone, sets that sacrifice a self heal, don't get back near as much utility and survivability. This shouldn't even be a matter of discussion....

[Dawnslayer]

Why don't you ask him? (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&Foru m=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main =5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post5101414)

Plenty of others did. :p

[Hibernoob]

Mmm. I'd really rather see an AT specific modifier applied to heal self. Except they need to be the reverse of the usual for this kind of thing, stronger for melee sets and weaker for casters.

Either that, or it needs to no longer be affected by powerboost. If you think about it, the ATs Aid Self will not be nerfed to help get no use from power boost anyways.


Here's a few problems I see with Heal Self atm:

1) Powerboosted Heals for blasters. Yep. Wasn't enough they have medium HP, unresistable damage, a strong synergy for suppressionless movement, and are retaining at least some form of detoggling, let's give them resists to all common melee toons damage and then let them have an 80% self heal every once in awhile, in addition to FoN. Oh...no...PFF too.

Cmon...you mean to tell me this was really intended? A heavy ranged damage AT should NOT be healing themselves that well, bottom line, but ESPECIALLY not when you guys have already caved and given them resists and more HP. Gimme a break.

Tank mage, anyone?

Frankly, I think someone should look into powerboosting the self heal on Rads heal as well...it's quite effective atm as well, and rather spammable.


2) Too strong a synergy on many sets, Hasten + Stamina + defenses or phase power make Aid Self very good. In pvp, only toggle debuffs will really interfere with the use of this power, the interupt is avoidable.

3) Obviously benefits all ranged classes more than melee classes. Why? Ranged classes have range...ie..less damage...ie...less incoming attacks, ie, less interupt = more chance to use. We can't gale/hold/phase/PFF/duck around a corner/cage them or w/e else casters can do to get breathing room. We're naturally in the thick of it, taking damage the whole time. The res based sets with no self heal get kinda screwed here too...without defenses they're much more likely to be interupted, even with 3x redux slotting.


I suppose you could remove the interupt for melee toons, and that way Aid Self would be mutually annoying to everyone, and then everyone would ask for the damned thing to get some more balanced attention.

But, let's be real here...the Devs haven't said "there's nothing wrong with Aid Self", they've said, "gee, we're not smart or motivated enough to figure out how to deal with it, so we've decided to just let you deal with it. We'll also be dispensing another stealth fire or regen nerf in i7, we haven't decided which...frankly, we just flip a coin."

[artphobia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what am I so afraid of?

[ItsJustJake]

[ QUOTE ]
Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.

A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.

[Tam_Lyn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, not changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that's plutonic.

[/ QUOTE ]

plutonic

Of deep igneous or magmatic origin: plutonic rocks.

...sooo, an Igneous sort of love, huh? :D

(you meant "platonic" BTW, but thanks for the laugh)

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.

A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is not self created at all. As posted before, _Castle_ WANTS to nerf it (showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&For um=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Mai n=5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange =&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post5101414). He may state the truth, that the power has not been changed as of his posting, but that does not changes he wants to nerf the power. (showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&For um=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Mai n=5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange =&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post5101414)

[UberGuy]

Unless you've learned to read Castle's mind, I think you need to stop waving that post as a banner. A lot of discussion has happened on the forums, about that power and about the pros and cons it has. Castle said that then. He is not carved in stone, and he could have changed his mind. It's worth pointing out that he originally did not want the power nerfed and apparently changed his mind when its recharge was pointed out to him.

And as he pointed out, he isn't changing it. I infer that the change he would liked to have made would have had negative ramifications for various uses of the power outside those Castle was looking at. Either that or there is a direct conflict of balance opinion between Castle and someone further up the chain.

In either case, his stated wish to change the power at that time is not, in my opinion, some sort of battle standard to be waved to incite the masses.

[Castle]

Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.

Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[The_Foo]

[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is over-powered.

[/ QUOTE ]
ZOMG!


Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?

Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?

Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.

*edit*
You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you? :(

[Monkey_King]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.

Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I always felt guilty about taking Aid Self, back before everyone knew how awesome it is. >_>

On one hand, it's not always that easy to just squeeze off in the middle of a fight, though, especially with multiple foes shooting at you and stacking up DoT. Zeus Titans sure don't make it easy on me. And, you DO essentially have to waste a whole power slot to get at your awesome self heal, whereas people with their own self heals don't have to stretch themselves at all.

On the other hand, I do think it was a mistake to shorten the activation time. 2 seconds of interruptability is what really kept the thing from being abusable. You could always push for the old activation time to come back. I've managed to squeeze in a heal in between DoT ticks before.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.

Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having debated Aid Self with _Castle_ in the past, even offered examples of how this one pool power can potentially give some builds better hit point recovery than many /regen scrappers, I also have to look at it from the other side of the fence.

Primary and secondary powersets have no "minimum investment" required. One could, conceivably, take nothing but a heal from a primary, or the default power + a heal from the secondary. Aid Self, however, still requires first the selection of the Medicine pool (which is one out of your four potential pool options), and second, taking Aid Other or Stimulant before "wanted" power becomes available. Neither of these is a big "sacrifice", but they are still important considerations for anyone creating a character. Will you HAVE room in the build for that pool? If you have the room in the build, do you ALSO have two available power selections at some point to dedicate to it? This isn't always the "no-brainer" that it may seem to be to some. Making this choice may require putting off, or never getting, something else that you may want just as much, such as Air Superiority, or that travel power.

Additionally, Aid Self can often be the ONLY means of damage mitigation avaliable to players. Ask a TA/A defender, or a /SR scrapper, or some other AT or powerset user that has no other significant ability to deal with hit point loss if Aid Self is overpowered. The answer is going to be something along the lines of, "Did you miss your meds today?" For powersets without a self-heal, meager or no defense, and lacking sufficient means of self-protection (hint hint nudge TA/A nudge), Aid Self can easily be the only thing standing between the player and mountains of frustrating debt.

Lastly, I suspect, and this is NOT confirmed, that Aid Self may have an AT modifier attached to it. I HAVE confirmed that Aid Other's heal is AT dependant (a defender heals for significantly more than a scrapper, blaster, or tanker), but I haven't had the opportunity to do enough testing on Aid Self to make a conclusion. IF Aid Self's heal is modified by AT, like Aid Other, the determination of whether it's "overpowered" would be more relative to which ATs benefited the most from it, not how it performs in the best case scenario (such as a blaster hitting Power Boost while running FoN inside PFF).

Is Aid Self overpowered? Maybe, for some builds. But the fact that it's also critical to the basic survivability of some other builds, and that there's more to it than simply adding it to your build (again, pool selection, two power selections, this can be quite a hefty investment in some cases) places it in the realm of "don't touch". And this still doesn't take into account the possibility of an AT modifier (such as if a defender or blaster were healing less than a tanker or scrapper), which could have a significant impact on how the power is viewed.

[UberGuy]

Well, I have to chime in here that I think the notion of measuring AS as overpowered because of its raw HP/second healed seems overly limited.

I like to compare AS to Reconstruction, which is a 25% heal every 60 seconds. In comparison, AS is a 20% heal every 20 seconds. Normalizing those comes out to:

Recons: 0.416%/sec
AS: 1%/sec

I'll grant that this is a pretty hefty numerical difference. But let's look at it for a second in a more wholistic view.

*) You have to stray into a power pool and take another power. If you're a melee character, you probably have very limited use for this power choice. (Tankers actually make effective healers with Aid Other, however.)
*) Aid Self has a 3+ second activation, where you can do nothing but move (if you reduced the interrupt time)
*) Cannot be activated in motion at all. You have to stop moving to activate it.
*) Cannot be used in most damage fields, other fast DoTs or pulsing effects

Compare that to a Reconstruction

*) In-powerset power with no prerequiste (other than being a certain minimum level)
*) Can be used on the move. The animation does not root the caster
*) < 1 second activation

Do those differences warrant a 2.4 factor in healing/sec? I don't know, but I can see it being better than Reconstruction in that raw metric because of the other differences.

Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.

[The_Foo]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have to chime in here that I think the notion of measuring AS as overpowered because of its raw HP/second healed seems overly limited.

I like to compare AS to Reconstruction, which is a 25% heal every 60 seconds. In comparison, AS is a 20% heal every 20 seconds. Normalizing those comes out to:

Recons: 0.416%/sec
AS: 1%/sec

I'll grant that this is a pretty hefty numerical difference. But let's look at it for a second in a more wholistic view.

*) You have to stray into a power pool and take another power. If you're a melee character, you probably have very limited use for this power choice. (Tankers actually make effective healers with Aid Other, however.)
*) Aid Self has a 3+ second activation, where you can do nothing but move (if you reduced the interrupt time)
*) Cannot be activated in motion at all. You have to stop moving to activate it.
*) Cannot be used in most damage fields, other fast DoTs or pulsing effects

Compare that to a Reconstruction

*) In-powerset power with no prerequiste (other than being a certain minimum level)
*) Can be used on the move. The animation does not root the caster
*) < 1 second activation

Do those differences warrant a 2.4 factor in healing/sec? I don't know, but I can see it being better than Reconstruction in that raw metric because of the other differences.

Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is all true, but recall that you're measuring it against a power from a powerset that's entire defense is based upon healing itself!

It's like saying the Tylenol III you can buy in the store isn't overpowered in comparison to the version a Doctor has access to. Well, sure, but everyone can get it, unlike that specialised version.

Compare the difference between an SR Scrapper with and without. Heck, compare an character with Aid Self to another with SR based solely on how long the two can take incoming damage when not fighting (assuming both have the same HP).

[Creole Ned]

I agree with what UberGuy said.

Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.

Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.

On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.

The system works. Let's leave it as is, please. :)

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like saying the Tylenol III you can buy in the store isn't overpowered in comparison to the version a Doctor has access to. Well, sure, but everyone can get it, unlike that specialised version.

Compare the difference between an SR Scrapper with and without. Heck, compare an character with Aid Self to another with SR based solely on how long the two can take incoming damage when not fighting (assuming both have the same HP).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that makes the comparison all the more valid. I did not include anywhere in that analysis that Reconstruction is only a part of /Regen's healing-based mitigation. Had I somehow included Dull Pain or Fast Healing in the analysis then yes, it would be unfair. Comparing Reconstruction and Aid Self as stand-alone powers is completely fair. There is no indication that Reconstruction is somehow godly among self-heal powers simply because it is a component in the Regeneration powerset.

[Trevyc]

Switching gears here, being that aid self is going to be as is and that other self heals are condsidered below it for balance - how do other self heals compare to each other with aid self taken out of the equation ? Can we expect any "rebalancing" to any of those?

The most well known issue here is that healing flames is considered by players to be subpar when compared to such powers as dull pain( and its variants) and reconstruction.
What is the offical ( or even just your own) stance on the various self heal type powers and their inner balance issues ?

[Day_Dreamer]

[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.

Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.

Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.

[The_Foo]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what UberGuy said.

Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.

Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.

On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.

The system works. Let's leave it as is, please. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Now give your Ice Blaster Aid Self. Is that now balanced in comparison to your Fire Blaster?

Shouldn't the Fire Blaster be given some benefit such that taking Aid Self isn't required to bring him on par with the Ice Blaster?

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.

Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.

Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jackspot!

[Fiftycalsniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. If it gives your blaster regeneration comparable to a Scrapper's secondary or a Tanker's primary then yes, one could easily argue it is overpowered -- or more accurately, that the damage mitigation provided by these sets is out of balance compared to Aid Self, and vice-versa.

Of course, then the Tanker/Scrapper could take Aid Self themselves, but if Aid Self improves their performance to the point they are basically forced to take it because not doing so effectively cripples them, or keeps them from performing up to most people's expectations, then that too is a significant problem.

Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jackspot!

[/ QUOTE ]

/signed, all my sorta crippled melee AT's that are forced to run when they used to stand tall and proud ... :(

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.

Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with Aid Self is that it is overpowered for *some* ATs/builds and almost useless to other ATs/builds. Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.

I think Aid Self would be universally better if the interruptability were removed entirely and the amount of aid nerfed to a somewhat smaller percentage than it is currently, or perhaps even a fixed number of HP per level of the caster.

You could even make it equivalent to Reconstruction in every respect except that you need to take medicine power pool and another power beforehand. What's really wrong with that?

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]

I think Aid Self would be universally better if the interruptability were removed entirely and the amount of aid nerfed to a somewhat smaller percentage than it is currently, or perhaps even a fixed number of HP per level of the caster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, nerfing it would make it universally better?

Making it fixed W.R.T. caster level and ignoring AT HPs would make it horribly gimp for some ATs and quite nice for others. Besides, they can already achieve this with AT modifiers.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, it all depends on how much extra survivability melee ATs are supposed to have compared to the ranged ATs, which I think is the major question. After GDN and ED, there doesn't seem to be a clear or satisfactory answer to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

To stray away from the discussion for a moment...

No AT should be "more survivable" in its native element than other ATs in their native element, with the obvious exception of tanks. That is to say, if the developers make a decision to make scrappers "more survivable" in melee than blasters at range, they're basically going to sign a death warrant for blasters. Or controllers, or defenders, or Kheldians who play at range. Similarly, assigning "higher survivability" to any ranged AT over melee ATs is going to result in an end to melee ATs.

Survivability absolutely must be equivilant across the board, and Aid Self is one of the tools that some ATs require or use to achieve that necessity. And if Aid Self makes the game "too easy" for some builds or ATs, it's a sign of a problem with the ATs and/or powers in use, not Aid Self. "Balancing" Aid Self not only will not fix the problem, it will exacerbate the problem.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with Aid Self is that it is overpowered for *some* ATs/builds and almost useless to other ATs/builds. Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.


[/ QUOTE ]

With 3 interrups in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.

[Iodine]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't kid yourself. The importance of balance means less & less as each issue nears release. Now if Aid Self could be directly tied to herding or PLing, by God, watch those mountains move! The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yip, just wait till that fish is all fried and they start getting hungry. This little catfish will be hitting the frying pan in no time.

(that is unless some one gets to exploits it in pvp, then the nerf will probably take a weekend)

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this very hard to believe. I have it slotted with two interrupts and I cannot use it under the influence of something like and Ice Storm or near a Behemoth running Invincibility. If I can't get it to fire after two or three tries, I give up.

If what you're saying is true then it needs the interrupt time either increased or made less enhancable.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't kid yourself. The importance of balance means less & less as each issue nears release. Now if Aid Self could be directly tied to herding or PLing, by God, watch those mountains move! The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't. I am, frankly, one of the more jaded people on the forums when it comes to the nerfs we've seen in the past. I do not, however, believe that they would flat out lie to us.

Does that mean that, in the future, some new tech or other change to balance might allow them to change this power, and that they might then? Yeah, I buy that. Do I think that, when crunch month is over, they'll just nerf it outright? No, based on what Castle said here, I don't. They could have done that already - that's what he said.

[Day_Dreamer]

[ QUOTE ]
No AT should be "more survivable" in its native element than other ATs in their native element, with the obvious exception of tanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on whether by "survivable" you mean overall survivability including "dead mobs do no damage", or merely damage mitigation (which is what I was talking about).

Scrappers have a defensive secondary. Blasters' is offensive. Scrappers' damage mitigation should be higher, as Blasters are expected to derive "overall survivability" from range and offense.

If Blasters are deriving overall survivability from damage mitigation (ie. Aid Self) and that gives them mitigation comparable to Scrappers, or greater overall survivability, then there is a problem. (Whether range is an effective defense is possibly another, different but related, problem...)

It is also untrue that "overall survivability" needs be equal for all individual ATs (somehow excluding Tankers), as there is certainly a tradeoff that can be made between risk (ie. survivability) and reward (damage/speed of execution). Whether the balance is correct pretty much amounts to asking "is the survivability of Melee vs. Ranged where it should be".

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't. I am, frankly, one of the more jaded people on the forums when it comes to the nerfs we've seen in the past. I do not, however, believe that they would flat out lie to us.


[/ QUOTE ]

Things just aren't that simple. If Castle were in actual control of CoH balancing, I might be inclined to take his word as absolute. Since he is part of what I have gathered is a bureaucratic decisionmaking process, I don't really think his honesty even really matters.

That is to say: I don't doubt Castle's honesty, just his ability to predict what's going to happen.

~Gabriel

[JaZonZ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what UberGuy said.

Too often people think of pool powers only in relation to specific ATs (or even subsets of ATs) rather than all ATs.

Aid Self is not overpowered on my fire blaster that has it. It's a tool that helps him survive and must be used within the limits described above. He has nothing else to fall back on when solo, save for respites, unlike many (but not all) melee characters who may already have a self-heal.

On the other hand, my ice blaster does not use Aid Self because he uses his holds to help mitigate damage in a way that the fire blaster can't.

The system works. Let's leave it as is, please. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
Now give your Ice Blaster Aid Self. Is that now balanced in comparison to your Fire Blaster?

Shouldn't the Fire Blaster be given some benefit such that taking Aid Self isn't required to bring him on par with the Ice Blaster?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really do see what you are getting at but I still have my doubts.

I woudln't think the ice blaster is that simple. What 2 powers does the Ice Blaster give up to take the healing path? 1 of those holds that mitigate damage? Or a nice damage attack that mitigate damage by making the damage dealing bad guy go away faster? Ice patch.. hard to give that damage mitigation up I would thinkThe Ice blaster may want 4 other power pools to pull of their design making Med hard to fit in.

I do use it on my Invul Brute (which makes my opinion biased I'm sure) for in-between fight heals and it is very nice for that while soloing. I took it to fill some major defense holes that my invlul tank had post I5-ish, post ED, etc. etc.

While in team.. I hardly touch it because I'm normally interrupted. It seems to be a feast or famine power to me. It certainly is a power I consider "a good power". I really hate seeing good power smashed into bad powers in the name of balance. Balance always seems to tip it more towards the side of too much just so they don't have to nerf again.

[_Phantom_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is over-powered.

[/ QUOTE ]
ZOMG!


Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?

Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?

Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.

*edit*
You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you? :(

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, QFE
Eloquently put.

At least _Castle_ doesnt just field the softball topics and sit back and make cute little quips in general chat.
More than I can say for many other dev's.

This power being even remotely close to the caliber of melee powers in effectiveness is a joke, and just further illustrates the sub-mediocre level that melee defenses have been tuned to - on top of being reduced to a trivial concern in PvP for the opposition to overcome.

It also illustrates the continued divorce from comic-book heroics and influence in the game as a whole and in relation to AT's across the board.

What comic book character constantly juices a med-pack in every encounter, between 2-3 attacks to hang with his opponents?

[Hand_Of_Osiris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self is over-powered.

[/ QUOTE ]
ZOMG!


Seriously, though: isn't this all just a merry-go-round at this point? Aren't you (the Dev team) just letting Aid Self fill in the cracks that have appeared in game? Wouldn't it be better to actually get in there and address these sorts of issues so that you can change Aid Self and at the same time point and say, "but look at the changes we made to survivability overall!" when you do it?

Is it really fair that an SR Scrapper with Aid Self is about as effective as a Fire Tank that doesn't stray from their primary? Doesn't Aid Self on a Brute make a mockery of the Brute vs. Tank comparison?

Maybe you can't reply candidly in this venue, but this does seem like a case where everyone's trying very hard not to point out the pink elephant in the room.

*edit*
You're going to tell me to go smash something again, aren't you? :(

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, QFE
Eloquently put.

At least _Castle_ doesnt just field the softball topics and sit back and make cute little quips in general chat.
More than I can say for many other dev's.

This power being even remotely close to the caliber of melee powers in effectiveness is a joke, and just further illustrates the sub-mediocre level that melee defenses have been tuned to - on top of being reduced to a trivial concern in PvP for the opposition to overcome.

It also illustrates the continued divorce from comic-book heroics and influence in the game as a whole and in relation to AT's across the board.

What comic book character constantly juices a med-pack in every encounter, between 2-3 attacks to hang with his opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

None: There is too much healing in CoX. I had a discussion about this a few weeks ago. Although, some characters have healing powers- mostly wizards or cosmically do 'anything' types, it is rare to open a comic and see a character healing another while the other fights against hordes of mobs.

Comic book battles are 1 of 2 types: either hordes of minions AIM, Hydra, Kingpin etc or against other villian groups.

What CoX has made is a modification to the classic 'dungeon crawl' by adding defenders into the game at all or at least at the numbers they currently are. Also when was the last time you opened up an avengers comic and saw someone running around with 'pets'. This is also a variation of a summoner or necromancer instead of a true superhero archtype.

[UberGuy]

Yeah. But this is a game. It's an MMO. And given the things in this game that are actually fairly novel (no loot to speak of till the very end, Sidekicking, solo friendliness) I don't mind that they appropriated some tried-and-true MMO concepts. People like having pets. A LOT. And like as not, healing is useful. Sometimes overrated, but definitely useful.

In any case, this is a thread about a self heal. And that there is plenty of precedent for.

[Ice_Ember]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only way I can play my VULNerable scrapper and I will be adding it to my fire tank as well... if I ever decide to play him again that is.

[LostCreation]

[ QUOTE ]
Builds using ATs which have inherently high defense and/or include a lot of defense pools (Stealth/CJ/Weave/Hover) have a distinct advantage in Aid Self usage over builds that do not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just brain storming a bit here, but I wonder if they could make a distinction between attacks that miss because the attacker's to hit roll whiffed, and those that miss because of the targets defense. If the target aims about as well as an Imperial Storm Trooper, a miss shouldn't interrupt Aid Self. But if they miss because your "armor deflected it" or because "you dodged it", shouldn't Aid Self be interrupted? (Arguably this should apply to all interrupting powers, not just AS.)

If I understand how ToHit/Defense works (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4131990), this would mean that even level minions would have approximately 50% chance to interrupt AS if they attack while AS is activating. Your defense wouldn't effect this chance at all, but ToHit buffs and debuffs would.

Is this idea good, fair and fun, and would it help balance out Aid Self?

[Infernal_Machine]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.

Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Genius, nobody is happy yet everyone is... i think. _Castle_ needs to get a government job

[UberGuy]

God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

[LostCreation]

[ QUOTE ]
God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, good to have at least one person's opinion on it, though calling my idea a "big sledgehammer" seems a bit excessive. :eek:

Remember, this power really isn't supposed to be dependable during combat, but "several powersets" can use this power reliably during combat because of their high defense. My idea would bring them back in line with other power sets that aren't def based (maybe too far back in line, I don't know) without any additional changes to the power itself.

Like I said, I'm just brainstorming here.

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I believe that is *exactly* why _Castle_ thinks Aid Self is overpowered.

The devs will either need to remove the benefit of +DEF on interruptable powers (major change), or they will need to nerf/change aid self so that it doesn't benefit +DEF sets much more than other sets (smaller change). If they change it which way do you think they will go?

I have Aid Self on my Brute, and it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm also thinking about adding it to my Invul Tanker. With 2 interrupt SOs I get nearly a 100% fire rate on it under normal combat conditions, and about 50/50 when under DoT. Issue 7 will make it work even better with defense scaling. :D :D :D

I would never consider putting it on my Blaster. Firing it is too unreliable even with interrupt enhancers due to the lack of defense (I wouldn't put it on my Corrupter or regen Scrapper either, but there is obviously more than one reason in those cases).

_Castle_ says they are not changing Aid Self in I7. I believe him. But I know they will change Aid Self "soon"(tm). They have to, it's too unbalancing to have it work great for some sets and be almost useless for others.

Edit: After thinking about it... the easiest fix (therefore the most likely one to be implemented) would be to remove interrupt enhancements from Aid Self. +DEF sets would still have a better chance of getting it to fire in combat, but it would be a pretty low chance.

[ItsJustJake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dev post.
Without a dev post it's just a rumor... ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse - it's a player's speculation, drawn from an inference that the player took from somethng he read - regarding something he is afraid of. It's not *even* a rumor - until he started posting it as near Fact.

A shining example of self-created player Hysteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is not self created at all. As posted before, <a href="showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&Foru m=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main =5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post5101414" target="_blank">_Castle_ WANTS to nerf it</a>. He may state the truth, that the power has not been changed as of his posting, but that does not changes <a href="showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Tanker&Number=5101414&Foru m=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main =5082750&Search=true&where=&Name=134522&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post5101414" target="_blank">he wants to nerf the power.</a>

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes .. and that post was in reply to? Somoene's speculation. Castle said he would change it if it was up to him, but that he is not going to change it. Feel free to keep waving up one post as your 'proof', but all that is is his opinion of the power. You conveniently leave out the posts where he says he is not changing it.

Enjoy your Speculation, but please - stop trying to pass it off as The Truth.

[gSOLO]

You fubared the thread, please fix. Thanks.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I believe that is *exactly* why _Castle_ thinks Aid Self is overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

The described behavior would break benefits to other interruptable powers for defense sets. Dark/Dark using Moonbeam. Ninja and SR Stalkers using Assissin Strike (or just keeping Placate). My point was that the described solution would be annoying as hell accross multiple ATs, and I am quite certain that +DEF and AS/Placate are very much working as intended.

Any "fix" to Aid Self should not "fix" those other sets. The "fix" I was responding to would.

What you are describing is going to be true so long as Aid Self exists. Aid Self benefits anyone who has defenses or any mitigation already. This is a truism whether the characters have +DEF or not. Aid Self is of great benefit to someone with high DR. It's just not as easy to use reliably.

All that could be changed is that the benefit can be reduced. Past experience shows that such changes tend to make pool powers meaningless across the board. And making yet another pool power have a meaningless benefit is tiresome. Yay, lets make it another Weave! A power that no one in their right mind takes - even the AT that it helps the "most". If the power exists and can be taken, it needs to provide meaningful benefit.

So thanks, but I'm not interested in another Weave.

[BlackSly]

Just to toss in my short comment on this whole topic:

It is hard to consider a power "overpowered" when it is the only heal that can fail to work when you need it.

Stuck in Quicksand by Cot? Better survive until the QS drops (hard for squishies), because Aid Self won't help you there.

Falling after being hit by a -Fly power? Wait to hit the ground and go "ouch", because you can't use it while falling.

Hit hard, low on HPs, and you want to run away, around a corner, while healing so that the last burst of enemy fire doesn't kill you? Out of luck, because you have to stop to use Aid Self.

None of those apply to other self heals. Now, of course, in a "best situation", Aid Self is the strongest self-heal available. But it has both the costs associated with acquiring it (extra power choice, one power pool choice), and the extra disadvantage in that it can fail to work when you need it. And, usually, when you need it THE MOST.

I like heals anytime. But I NEED heals at some times... exactly when Aid Self is hardest to use. When I'm stuck in Quicksand, or in PvP when a Rad has his toggles on me, or when I'm down to 20% health and running for the nearest corner to break LOS. And it's exactly when I need Aid Self the most, that it's the hardest to use.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, yes .. and that post was in reply to? Somoene's speculation. Castle said he would change it if it was up to him, but that he is not going to change it. Feel free to keep waving up one post as your 'proof', but all that is is his opinion of the power. You conveniently leave out the posts where he says he is not changing it.

Enjoy your Speculation, but please - stop trying to pass it off as The Truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

As they say where I come from:

There is no worse blind than he who does not want to see.

Enjoy the darkness there, as you like to ignore and twist what castle says on that thread AND this one (you know, that bit where he simply says nerf is not happening because it means changing a bigger thing, not because they really don’t want to?).

[UberGuy]

That seems to completely ignore the other two things Castle said. That it would be very unpopular and wasn't strictly neccessary.

(Sorry, Castle. You must love having people microanalyze your posts like this. :))

[Kong_Fuu]

OMG! Castle is using a lot of vowels today, that means Aid Self is going to be nerfed two weeks after I7 is released.

DOOOOOOOM!

[UberGuy]

Castle is an anagram for "As Celt". Because the Celts used broadswords, I am certain that Castle will next be nerfing the Broadsword set.

[Firechild]

[ QUOTE ]
Castle is an anagram for "As Celt". Because the Celts used broadswords, I am certain that Castle will next be nerfing the Broadsword set.

[/ QUOTE ]

People in Castles used broadswords too. At least my Lego people did. I think you're on to something. ;)

[Starsman]

You tellin me they do will stop nerfs because something may not be popular!!!

Darnit i should had told them how unpopular ED would had been.... oh wait...

[UberGuy]

Yeah, except they felt that ED was abolutely essential. And in PvP I think it absolutely was. (Which annoys the tar out of me.)

On the other hand, the other thing Castle said ("not strictly neccessary") suggests that they do not feel this way about Aid Self.

Absolutely neccessary > wildly unpopular
Not strictly neccessary < very unpopular

While certainly highly subjective, I don't find those two assertions impossible to accept.

Do I think Aid Self will never change for better balance? No. I do hope that, as a low priority change, it can be rebalanced on the coat tails of some tech change in the game that will allow it to be rebalanced without sucking wind; changed in a way that's not an option now.

[Kong_Fuu]

One of the things I thought when he talked about that was "you know, Recon and especially Healing Flames just kinda suck". I have a fire tank and Healing Flames comes up just too slow to be really useful. I spend a lot of time in battle thinking "cmon, I put three recharges in you, recharge faster!"

Of course I'm also one of those guys who stuck 2 recharges in Aid Self. When I'm taking enough damage that I need healing, I tend to need more healing than HF can provide. Aid Self has a much higher threshold and is more generally useful in that situation.

IMHO, I wouldn't mind if HF and Recon were dropped to 40 second recharges and Aid Self was bumped to a 30 second recharge. That would also put them much more in line with the amount of healing they provide, and the fact that Aid Self is a pool power (although that should be taken up by the fact that Aid Self is interruptable).

[UberGuy]

Yeah, something like that would be rather nice.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this very hard to believe. I have it slotted with two interrupts and I cannot use it under the influence of something like and Ice Storm or near a Behemoth running Invincibility. If I can't get it to fire after two or three tries, I give up.

If what you're saying is true then it needs the interrupt time either increased or made less enhancable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This morning I was under attack by six freaks with my Ice/Energy Blaster. I never failed to get off Aid Self slotted with two interrupts. I've gotten it off with a DoT on me.

Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

I really don't see how that makes any sense at all.

[Supermax]

Aid self also heals for noticeably more than a fire tanker's healing flames......and recharges in like half the time....or maybe even less.

Makes sense, right?

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

[ QUOTE ]
My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Aid self also heals for noticeably more than a fire tanker's healing flames......and recharges in like half the time....or maybe even less.

Makes sense, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

We already know that at least Castle thinks that's broken and that Healing Flames is being inspected for improvement.

[Starsman]

Wait, you were under the impression that a fire tanker was meant to survive?

Why do you think they gave us Rise of the Phoenix! Because we are MEANT to need it!

[Iodine]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't...

[/ QUOTE ]
No one said he was lying. I was suggesting you placed too much emphasis on balance being the reason it hasn't been nerfed. Like I said ... there are bigger fish to fry (than self-heals).

[Great_Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I always felt guilty about taking Aid Self, back before everyone knew how awesome it is. >_>


[/ QUOTE ]

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "back before everyone knew how awesome it was".

As a pool power that was under the radar for 5 full Issues, Aid Self was never "awesome". It still isn't "awesome" today.

The effect you are noting is actually "this power was never rebalanced to suck like the Primary/Secondary Defensive powers were".

Really, it should be nerfed. Since Fire Armor isn't going to be overpowered any time soon, all that Aid Self is really accomplishing is a delay in the "day or reckoning" that all the Defese sets so desperately need.

Or to say it more simply; We need to remove the crutches so the sets fall down, go boom, and get improved. Aid Self is a garden-variety crutch.

[UberGuy]

Hate to break it to you, GS, but I don't come close to believing that day is coming. Ever.

Over all, our current levels of defense are workable. I have Aid Self on two melee characters; both Invuln, one Scrapper, one Tanker. I may yet change the Tanker over to Tough. My Regen and Dark Armor characters don't have it, and never will. My DA Brute won't have it - he's out of pools. My MA/Regen Stalker... nope.

We don't need Aid Self to survive or function. Is it damn nice to have? You betcha! But nerfing it, or hell, removing it from the game wouldn't cripple my characters.

So I just can't see your logic there. Doesn't flow for me.

[The_Foo]

I'd say healing 125% of your HP every minute is a pretty decent crutch. So maybe the sets won't fall down without it, but they'll sure as hell be doing better with it.

Would you prefer the term "booster seat" or "platform shoes"?

[UberGuy]

I believe I already said that I agree that Aid Self makes a character more survivable. If it didn't, why on earth would we take it?

Scott was saying that without it our sets would be revealed to be so gimp that the devs would have to boost them. That their true "gimpiness" is being concealed by the benefits of this power.

I disagree. I submitted as evidence the fact that I have characters who lack Aid Self yet do amazing things. Things which which a glance at the game manual would suggest I shouldn't be doing.

It's impossible for Aid Self to both be worth taking and not have it make a character better. It's impossible for any amount of healing worth even having to make more of a difference to someone with mitigation than to someone with none.

I argue that just because I could conceivably stand around and spam Aid Self on myself does not make my Invulnerability Scrapper "more survivable" than my Regen Scrapper, even though my Invul has better +DEF and +DR. Why? Because I argue that while my Invul is standing around animating that power, my Regen is actually fighting. My regen is actually able to deal damage, apply debuffs/buffs, and do other things than just heal. Maybe my Invul could stand around all day and not die. (My practical experience actually tells me he couldn't, but lets say he could.) But he needs to do something else meanwhile. No, he won't actually spend 100% of his time animating Aid Self. But he'll spend roughly 3x as much time doing that than my Regen would spend animating Reconstruction even if Reconstruction and Aid Self had the same recharge times.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
.
Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder when Geko decided that the sets with self heals couldn't be buffed to be at least ON PAR with Aid Self if he remembered this little ditty from ancient times:

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once upon a time with Geko. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=archetypes&Number=1438696& Forum=,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage =3&Limit=25&Main=1431489&Search=true&where=&Name=5 14&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&older type=&bodyprev=#Post1438696)

Stimulant was adjusted so it didn't step on Clear Mind. It was done in a combo slight nerf to Stimulant and fair buff to Clear Mind. Aid Other and the rez already don't step on their primary and secondary fellows.

Why does Aid Self get the privilege.

[Stupid_Fanboy]

because kludges keep them from having to address real imbalances?

[Black_Scourge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

[ QUOTE ]
My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, unfortunately, one of the most unbalance builds have access to power boost. Ever fight an Ice/EM with Power boost and Aid self? 700+ hp heals at lvl 50.

[EvilGeko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

[ QUOTE ]
My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, unfortunately, one of the most unbalance builds have access to power boost. Ever fight an Ice/EM with Power boost and Aid self? 700+ hp heals at lvl 50.

[/ QUOTE ]

No but I got one. I've seen what a "regen" Blaster can do.