Massive Hurricane nerf [Archive] - City of Heroes Forums

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 01:26 PM

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Despite what some have read into the patch notes (which mention PvP, but do not specifically assert PvP only), the nerf to Hurricane affects PvE.

The Repel effect's tick rate has been reduced by half or more, the Repel effect itself seems weaker (mobs are pushed away more slowly, though that may be a consequence of the reduced tick rate) and even the radius of effect seems considerably shorter.

Mobs in PvE are now able to run right up to me and hit me, sometimes getting in two attacks before being repelled. They were also able to melee attack someone standing right next to me without being repelled at all. Making the Repel portion a personal defense only, not a team defense.

The reduced tick rate also makes using Hurricane to position foes take quite a bit longer. Enough so that I don't think it's worth the effort any more.

So, Hurricane probably lost more than half of its PvE effectiveness with this latest patch.

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Wow...it sounds like it was lowered down to the effectiveness of Repel and that bubble shield.

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Repulsion Field. Despite their names those two powers do Knockback, not Repel. So most melee fighters in PvP completely resist their effects, as do many PvE opponents. The only other Repel powers I can think of are Telekinesis and Force Bubble.

Hurricane is now a DeBuff with Repel/KB components that are of minimal net value. And, of course, the DeBuff took a big hit in this patch too. Stormies, lacking mez protection and a self heal, just got a LOT squishier. Especially since, unlike the equally squishy Empaths, Storm Summoners draw a large amount of aggro.

I'll have to get someone in the Arena to see if the radius of the DeBuff was reduced too.

TWolf

04-11-2006, 01:29 PM

DOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

Tormentoso

04-11-2006, 01:42 PM

Hurricane was supposed to provide a melee free zone for squishies.

Herdicaning and mob positioning used to be Storm's claim for fame.

There goes that...

Cuddles

04-11-2006, 01:45 PM

Power is totally worthless now. It has a -range, debufff, repel, and Knockback for a pretty low end cost.
Doom on you!

Elemental_Knight

04-11-2006, 01:49 PM

*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 02:00 PM

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Hurricane's tick rate was changed from every 0.25 seconds to every 1.0 seconds. The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value.

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The radius is still the same (25 feet), and there is no limit on the maximum number of targets it can hit at once.

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That 25 feet must be for the DeBuffs only. It certainly was never 25 feet for the Repel. The Repel radius appears to be reduced to me. I never had someone standing next to me remain locked in melee before, the Repel always pushed the foes away. Now it doesn't. I don't think that has anything to do with the tick rate.

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There is a severe accuracy and range debuff for each affected target.

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I forgot about the -Range. Didn't notice anything having trouble using ranged attacks against me however. Nothing that prefered the use of ranged attacks had to close in to attack. Since the -Range only works on stuff within 25 ft, PvE mobs tend to have good range and the -Range may well be reduced by the combat modifier for level difference that isn't surprising.

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For comparison: Repel, 3rd power from the Kinetics powerset, ticks every 0.5 seconds with an end cost of 0.39 per tick (0.78 per second) plus an additional cost per target affected. The radius is only 7 feet, and there is no debuff effect.

Force Bubble, 9th power from the Force Field powerset, ticks every 0.25 seconds, costing 0.1716 endurance per tick (0.6864/sec, Defender and Controller versions only; Mastermind version is 25% higher end cost). The radius is 50 feet, and there is no debuff.

Given this information, I'd say Hurricane still easily comes out on top.

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It is certainly better than Repulsion Field or Repel. The only way to get good value out of those is to run Repel Bowling patterns to keep a large number of mobs on their rears.

Whether Hurricane is better than Force Bubble or not is debateable. It certainly puts Force Bubble in a class by itself now. Whether that's a good class to be in or not is the debateable part. Personally, I'm no fan of Force Bubble in PvE. So I'd agree that Hurricane is better.

My post's point is the reduction in effectiveness in PvE, not how good the power is. When complaints about nerfing Hurricane for PvE were voiced in the Training Room forums, most reponses were along the lines of "Learn to read - it's for PvP only". Well, it isn't. And it isn't a small nerf, they cut the Repel effect by at least 75% and the ToHit DeBuff by 20% (I7 should just about cancel out that nerf for PvE). Is that a major nerf, or isn't it?

Fishw0rk

04-11-2006, 02:11 PM

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

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All 3 of your suggestions can be avoided by the Stormy if he/she has Clear Mind or some other mez protection. Also even if you do have your melle attack qued you still be debuffed after hitting the Stormie--meaning that your Acc and Range will be floored.

Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/

Elemental_Knight

04-11-2006, 02:11 PM

The thing that personally bugs me the most about this change is that, in a mission, I really can no longer protect a teamate if they got swarmed by more that they could handle. What I would do is if I saw a teamate was surrounded by a lot of NPCs and close to dieing, I would run in with huricane and push them away, giving me an opportunity to heal them with O2 boost. One of Storm's primary functions (at least to me) is to help protect the team by controlling the position of the enemies. If a teamate accidently agro'd another group, I would try to position my huricane in such a manner to effectively placed a wall between what my team was currently fighting, and what was trying to overwhelm them. By forcing this nerf upon the PvE aspect of the game, you severely reduce (if not obliterate) one of storm's primary functions in a team environment.

I think we seriously need to present these findings to a developer. From what I am reading, I am getting a feeling the developers only wanted these changes for PvP and this may be an error in the coding.

ShangoKai

04-11-2006, 02:19 PM

No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen. Ever since the first time I stood among a pack of 12 werewolves with three blasters on my team and tore them apart without getting hit, as they stupidly kept trying to rush into our hurricane and getting repeled back, I knew this power would never fly in PVP. Why did I know that? Because even though there were ways for the skillful to counter hurricane, the average player still maintains a level of intelligence equal to an AI mob..

Elemental_Knight

04-11-2006, 02:21 PM

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

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All 3 of your suggestions can be avoided by the Stormy if he/she has Clear Mind or some other mez protection. Also even if you do have your melle attack qued you still be debuffed after hitting the Stormie--meaning that your Acc and Range will be floored.

Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/

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The fact is, though, any build is more effective in a team with even semi-competent players. Any controller or corruptor can become a major threat if they are buffed with clear mind, as it is not as easy to removed from the fight via status effects. What I am trying to say, however, is that stormies are not an unstoppable solo force (as no AT, with the exception of Stalkers, to a degree, should be).

As for the accuracy problem? Yes, the accuracy debuff is fairly large with a well slotted huricane, but again, this can be negated in a decent group with powers like tactics, or the use of accuracy inspirations (maybe not just buy breakfrees, think more strategically).

Finally, a player with a high defence value can generally get through huricane pretty unscathed, from my experience. Think SR Stalker and assasine strike. Stormies are squishy afterall, so they don't require a lot to take out.

But the fact remains, forcing these nerfs into the PvE side of the game was not needed to this degree. Maybe a small nerf to the repel, but this is just ridiculous.

Biostem

04-11-2006, 02:24 PM

...if only PvP had never been introduced...

NotDoc

04-11-2006, 02:28 PM

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Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/

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/agree

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy to see that overpowered horror nerfed (for PVP). But I would have left it very powerful to those INSIDE the effect and just removed the stickiness to prevent jousting.

Help, I can't see, I got water in my eyes! It stings! :p

JohnPreston

04-11-2006, 02:53 PM

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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen. Ever since the first time I stood among a pack of 12 werewolves with three blasters on my team and tore them apart without getting hit, as they stupidly kept trying to rush into our hurricane and getting repeled back, I knew this power would never fly in PVP. Why did I know that? Because even though there were ways for the skillful to counter hurricane, the average player still maintains a level of intelligence equal to an AI mob..

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I shall let the smilies tell the tale of what I thought of this post.
:eek:
:eek:
:)
:D
:p

StarmanDX

04-11-2006, 03:02 PM

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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.

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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.

BellaStrega

04-11-2006, 03:37 PM

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

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I tested this as much as I could in PVP with my tanker (Ice/Stone), and in my experience, if you do not have decent range, this stuff just doesn't work as well as you say.

LunarKnight

04-11-2006, 03:41 PM

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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.

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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.

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QFT. I'm sure I heard "we'll never make a change in PvE for PvP" a million times before I4. Sadly, the only people who ever said it were players... :)

Shubbie

04-11-2006, 03:42 PM

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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.

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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.

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Yes but again this shows why NON pvpers despise pvp so damn much.

IT sucks the life out of the pve game even if you never touch pvp.

Pvp stinks, it never helps and usually hurts and adds to the game for very very few people.

Go to any pvp zone and listen to crickets chirp.

Shubbie

04-11-2006, 03:44 PM

Lxndr

04-11-2006, 03:46 PM

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Well, at least there wasn't a massive hyperbole nerf...

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I hear they're nerfing hyperbole around the same time they're nerfing people. Originally scheduled to be in Issue 4, they keep on putting it off for some reason...

In other news: end cost reduced to 25% of its previous value? [censored], my stormies love this!

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 04:02 PM

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Well, at least there wasn't a massive hyperbole nerf...

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You don't consider losing more than 75% of the Repel effect and about 20% of the ToHit DeBuff to be a massive nerf?

Biostem

04-11-2006, 04:08 PM

Maybe hurricane was overpowered in PvP...

Being able to keep multiple melee'ers at bay seems a bit excessive, conisdering it's 1 power. And hoy many melee ATs have access to a ranged status effect?

If they just reduced the debuff duration and the pulse rate of the repel, it wouldn't be so bad...

Primal

04-11-2006, 04:18 PM

I'm not sure I understand why PvP changes affect (effect?) PvE at all. After all, there are plenty of powers in PvP that don't apply to PvE...otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off. And boy, would Tankers and Scrappers raise hell about that, but anyway.

I don't get it. Are we positive this is having any effect on PvE at all? And if it is, then bloody hell, WHY? I can understand the changes for PvP (though I don't give a rat's patootie about it), but I see zero reason for it to bleed into PvE. Please, don't give me any horseshit about it being "too powerful" for PvE. Hell, by the time a Stormer levels to where they can get it, they're gagging for most ANYTHING, so they deserve a good power.

If it JUST affects PvP, I couldn't care less. Otherwise, my Fire/Storm is nearly level 20, damnit.

Biostem

04-11-2006, 04:26 PM

Maybe it's just easier to change a power and just treat it the same in both PvP and PvE. I agree, though, that is should not be changed in PvE. It's liek a signature power for stormies!

Blueeyed

04-11-2006, 04:45 PM

Ouch... according to Iakona's info, the potential time between aggroing an enemy and actually having the enemy be debuffed has increased by up to three quarters of a second.

That's going to hurt. That's going to hurt a lot.

Half a second can easily mean death if you're trying to keep a team alive. It won't be as bad for mature stormers - by the time you can combine Freezing Rain, Snow Storm, and Hurricane correctly, the debuff and repel aren't your primary damage mitigation tools - but newer ones will be finding themselves faced with a pretty big problem as half their damage mitigation tools are becoming less effective. Least it'll be less expensive, or will be until the cost gets quadrupled to be brought in line with Force Bubble.

I really find it funny how this change has progressed, though. A plainly PvP change... that will have a significant negative effect on PvErs (despite there being an alternative - _Castle_ already commented on Hurricane having different values for Knockback in PvP than in PvE)...

But, hey, Defender are the most balanced Archetype, if by quantity rather than quality, and it's not like we're supposed to be good at debuffing.

Pippy

04-11-2006, 04:51 PM

When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.

And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.

So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.

Cobaltix

04-11-2006, 04:59 PM

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...if only PvP had never been introduced...

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QFT

:p

disco_

04-11-2006, 05:17 PM

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But, hey, Defender are the most balanced Archetype, if by quantity rather than quality, and it's not like we're supposed to be good at debuffing.

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Debuffing is so 2005..

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 05:22 PM

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When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.

And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.

So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.

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I use it on a Fire/Storm too, so I know what you mean. But I was trying to assess the changes to the power, not to my play style.

For me, Hurricane is now sort of a PBAoE Darkest Night with some drawbacks from the Repel/KB. It's not the same power it was before. Maybe I should have said "Massive nerf to typical Hurricane uses", as most of the common uses of Hurricane are now significantly less effective. Only the DeBuffing strategies used with it work as well. The Repel/KB is now just a relatively minor side effect.

Spiked_Hammer

04-11-2006, 05:23 PM

Anyone who didn't see this coming must have been blind or not playing the same game. Dont try to point another finger at PvP about why this and that got nerfed, just adjust like EVERYONE else has in the past. I've played with plenty of Stormies in PvE and hurricane has never been a deciding factor on keeping the team alive, if anything it was annoying, and rarely used on teams.

If you really used it for PvE, then please ignore my post...its not directed at you, but it is directed at all the hurricane gods of PvP complaining under the curtain of how great the power was in PvE when a lot of us know that's not the case.

EDIT: Put PvP where i meant PvE

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 05:25 PM

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Ouch... according to Iakona's info, the potential time between aggroing an enemy and actually having the enemy be debuffed has increased by up to three quarters of a second.

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I'm not sure about this, I didn't notice the first shot hitting me any more often than I would have expected. But then I wasn't charging in. Also, I tdon't think the DeBuff aggroes, so the aggro radius of Hurricane has been reduced with the Repel radius, so that they are well within the DeBuff before aggroed.

Cuddles

04-11-2006, 05:59 PM

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...if only PvP had never been introduced...

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then we could all be standing around Atlas having Costume contests....
Ohhh Goodie!

Tempest_56

04-11-2006, 06:00 PM

My main is a Storm. I love Storm. It makes me happy in my happy places. I'm also not only not going to complain about this nerf, but I'm going to take it and run gleefully.

Why? Simple.
1) With the I7 changes, the drop in the to-hit debuff really isn't going to be significant.
2) I don't *want* the enemy repelled out of the area of my debuff effects.
3) Any time I'm in a situation where I really want to push something away from me, the knockback does just fine - if not from Hurricane, then from the bajillion other effects I have that cause it.
4) This reduction in power will help weed out the weak ones and force the people who relied on it as a crutch to use the rest of their tools in Storm's powerful and wonderful toolkit instead of becoming dependent on a single power.
5) Now I can stop listening to everybody and their mother who PvPs whine like a small child about how much they hate Hurricane and how much they're looking forward to seeing it nerfed because they're too poor of players to figure out ways to beat it. (And there are ways. Many, many ways.)
6) The power is still viable, still effective, and still worthy of being called Storm Summoning's signature power. This isn't the nerfing Regen got. This isn't the massive drop in power tankers have taken from the many, many nerfs they've been on the recieving end of. This isn't even the slightly-worse-than-a-papercut dropoff a lot of blasters took this same patch with the loss of Whirlwind negating animation times. I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.

MrQuizzles

04-11-2006, 06:07 PM

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1) With the I7 changes, the drop in the to-hit debuff really isn't going to be significant.

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The drop will be quite significant against +0 and +1 enemies, actually (averaging around a 7% increase in enemy Final Accuracy, even level bosses will gain around 13%). The drop will become minor against +2 enemies, and against enemies +3 and above you'll see a very minor increase (averaging around a 2% drop in enemy Final Accuracy).

Teklord

04-11-2006, 06:18 PM

The 1 second tic will be really annoying to my storm buddies. But thank goodness my friend Gravimetric Storm is Gravity/Storm. He has a ton of positioning tools. With Wormhole, Gale and Hurricane in order of usefulness after this NERF.

And nerf it is for hurricane. It took it in the shorts for PVP concerns. And whatever the retcon of the day is, cryptic/ncsoft stated they would make it a priority to avoid that.

Since server tics are syncronized on the server side it won't matter if you have 4 hurricanes running either. What a crock.

Well, I will continue to play and move on but this isn't a nice thing to do to storm summoning. It isn't an uber set and I never had trouble taking Storm defender/controllers down in PvP. Jousting with KO blow worked wonders, especially if I fought his teams scrapper for a bit to build fury.
-Teklord

Primal

04-11-2006, 06:20 PM

You know, I'm glad you're enjoying the, ah, reduction, or at least thinking positively about it. But this...:

[ QUOTE ]
I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

...is about as damning a faint praise as I can imagine. Either I must

a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it, or

b) stand in awe of your diabolically devious wielding of sarcasm.

Either way, I stand in awe. I really am glad you're enjoying the change though....

Cuddles

04-11-2006, 06:29 PM

The difference between PvP players and PvE players is that
[ QUOTE ]
otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off.

[/ QUOTE ]
PvP players would actually be OK with this change.

CrushingAbyss

04-11-2006, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between PvP players and PvE players is that
[ QUOTE ]
otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off.

[/ QUOTE ]
PvP players would actually be OK with this change.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they wouldn't and you know it. They would whine non-stop like they do about everything else. Even though it had no bearing on their pvp game.

iakona_NA

04-11-2006, 07:02 PM

I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game; it has the only (that I can recall) range debuff in the game. Now the enemies stay in the debuff radius longer, since they're knocked back slightly less. And to top it all off, the endurance cost you spend for all these benefits is now 17% lower than Hover...

Perhaps I'm just not pessimistic enough, but I really fail to see where all the DOOOOOOM-speak is coming from.

Click_Beetle

04-11-2006, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if only PvP had never been introduced...

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

:p

[/ QUOTE ]
QFQFT

Clan_Jericho

04-11-2006, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it

[/ QUOTE ]

A beaten dog knows to fear the hand.

~Gabriel

Sinistar6000

04-11-2006, 07:20 PM

My take on the tohit debuff change...
Defenders-AIM and tactics biggest buff
Tankers-FA
Scrap-FA
Blast-AIM
Controllers- lowest attainable accuracy of any hero

Brute-leadership? Do they get a pet to enh accuracy
Corruptor-AIM
Dominator-screwed except thorns
Stalker-up ships creek
MM-more attacks mean more chances of hits but still f@#$ed

Tanker slotted 2 acc sos in attacks-meets storm defender with ubercane -tanker misses so he puts on focc acc and still misses but finally hits
Brute meets stormy- brute gets debuffed and is screwed if they dont have insights

Accuracy debuffs already give like lvl heros problems (RI, HURR, Darkest Night) and they have the highest attainable accuracy. Just imagine what those same debuffs would do to villians and their non-accuracy enhancing Patron Powers.

Teklord

04-11-2006, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it

[/ QUOTE ]

A beaten dog knows to fear the hand.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]
But most whipped dogs will turn on the hand that feeds it. Its fear is so great that any sign of weakness or threat to food can make it turn on you. Abused Dogs are unpredictable.
-Teklord

Peteroid

04-11-2006, 08:10 PM

Mr_Jaytastic

04-11-2006, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 simple things that can disable a stormie

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are more ways then just 3, but that didnt matter to the devs

[ QUOTE ]
It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius

[/ QUOTE ] 10 seconds is way too long? I can think of numerous debuffs that last longer.

I havent tested hurricane today, but I did use ri and I could tell a pretty substantial difference in the amount of damage I was taking. I know a lot of people are saying it will balance out in PvE...but I could care less. PvE can be figured out. The ai is predictable.

PvP is where my beef is. This is going to get me pwned a lot more often.

Kosmos

04-11-2006, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game; it has the only (that I can recall) range debuff in the game. Now the enemies stay in the debuff radius longer, since they're knocked back slightly less. And to top it all off, the endurance cost you spend for all these benefits is now 17% lower than Hover...

Perhaps I'm just not pessimistic enough, but I really fail to see where all the DOOOOOOM-speak is coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no DOOOOM-speak. It's merely an assessment that this power is far less effective in PvE today than it was yesterday. If all you used it for was debuffing, then you won't notice much difference beyond the 20% enhancement nerf. If you actually used the Repel then the value of that component is largely gone.

I assume you've picked up the END use by <insert unmentionable process here> and those numbers are accurate. That is a big bonus that I didn't notice while playing and so left out of the assessment.

Basically the argument seems to be...

1 -20% ToHit DeBuff is merely temporary.
2 The Repel really wasn't worth much anyway.
3 Repel lessened the DeBuff value.
4 The END cost of Hurricane was a major problem.
5 The -Rng DeBuff has significant PvE value.

(1) This is not precisely true, the reduction when fighting lower con foes such a solo Defender is apt to face is not going to be rolled back by I7. Because of mez the 20% reduction in the ToHit DeBuff is going to have far more than a proportional effect on your ability to survive while soloing.

(2) The Repel effect could be worth more than the -ACC if used well. After all, for my Fire/Storm not much is shooting back anyway so I don't care if their accuracy and range are debuffed, I just want to make sure they stay grouped and anybody I missed gets herded up close for the next Flashfire/Cinders/Thunderclap shot. And preferably close enough that Tornado and Lightning Storm are hitting more than one target at a time.

(3) The Repel never cancelled the DeBuff unless you moved away from the repelled foe. And even then the debuff effect remained for a substantial time. The KB occasionally would throw someone outside the debuff. The probabilty of that happening is at least as high as before. The reduced Repel radius does make it easier to use Thunderclap and Cinders but, for me at least, does nothing to help keep the debuff on foes. In fact, I got knocked back myself several times by foes closing to melee range and got stunned by a Crey "Pom-Pom" attack.

(4) It was a minor problem for me. The reduction in END cost will allow me to move a slot off Hurricane when I7 hits. Certainly can't complain about that.

(5) The -Rng is only useful in PvE if you are herding by debuffing and then moving out of the foes' now reduced range. Very useful if the foes are low rank, you have few purples, or are otherwise feeling up to collecting a bunch of aggro. You can also use Snow Storm to aid kiting with this strategy, but once the -Rng wears off you'd have to duck back into range to renew the debuff. Very few PvE foes have short ranged attacks other than melee. If mobs used powers such as Power Burst, Cosmic Burst or Blaze it would have been worth a lot more. But now they'd have no trouble getting into range for even those point blank attacks. I think a lot of people are confusing their own troubles in dealing with Hurricane's -Rng and what it actually does for you. Maybe others have found a way to use it better than I have in PvE.

JusticeZero

04-11-2006, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game

[/ QUOTE ]
Because if the acc debuff was entirely removed, I would hardly notice. I don't slot the acc debuff, I don't notice the acc debuff, the thing I pay attention to is the fact that mobs are no longer swinging their massive melee attacks at me and the blasters next to me. With a much longer length of time between tics, I lose that.

Fishw0rk

04-11-2006, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 simple things that can disable a stormie

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are more ways then just 3, but that didnt matter to the devs

[ QUOTE ]
It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius

[/ QUOTE ] 10 seconds is way too long? I can think of numerous debuffs that last longer.

I havent tested hurricane today, but I did use ri and I could tell a pretty substantial difference in the amount of damage I was taking. I know a lot of people are saying it will balance out in PvE...but I could care less. PvE can be figured out. The ai is predictable.

PvP is where my beef is. This is going to get me pwned a lot more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

10 seconds is most definitely too long. We're talking about a non-travel suppression, -range, -Acc, Repel and knockdown power thats autohit and can affect multiple foes. 10 seconds is a very long time for a power with all those benefits. A blaster can kill most CoV ATs in 5 seconds tops.

iakona_NA

04-11-2006, 10:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you've picked up the END use by <insert unmentionable process here> and those numbers are accurate. That is a big bonus that I didn't notice while playing and so left out of the assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]
Castle confirmed this in a PM to me when it was still on test. It was an unintentional side effect that he didn't think about when he changed the tick rate, but he doesn't see any need to change it to a higher end cost now. "Consider it a gift" he said.

My main point here is that Hurricane is still the most powerful repel power in the game, because of all the additional effects it gets. A slight reduction in the knockback frequency of the power, while simultaneously getting the equivalent of a free 300% in Endurance Reduction enhancements, is hardly what I'd consider a "Massive Hurricane nerf." A massive nerf would be to make it a Repulsion Field clone.

Tempest_56

04-12-2006, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it, or

b) stand in awe of your diabolically devious wielding of sarcasm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or c) I like the fact that the least useful (to me, at least) aspect of the power has been toned down - actually improving it for my usage of it - in a way that will stop the massive nerf-herding of the power while still leaving me with an extremely useful tool. For some of us, we use it for the debuff (in which case it's still quite effective) instead of the repel. A different playstyle doesn't mean I'm a simpering lapdog, and your statement of that really just makes you out to be a fool.

Sheesh, if you want to start a fight, at least insult my mother or something. Try harder.

Kosmos

04-12-2006, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]

My main point here is that Hurricane is still the most powerful repel power in the game, because of all the additional effects it gets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think classing the new Hurricane as a "repel power" is inappropriate. It is now a DeBuff with some "additional effects".

[ QUOTE ]
A slight reduction in the knockback frequency of the power, while simultaneously getting the equivalent of a free 300% in Endurance Reduction enhancements, is hardly what I'd consider a "Massive Hurricane nerf."

[/ QUOTE ]

They reduced the KB frequency too? Or are you refering to reducing the Repel frequency to 1/4th and the radius to about 10' as "[a] slight reduction"?

As for the END, it's a big bonus to me as it frees up a slot to use elsewhere in my slot poor build. I didn't even notice the END reduction during my testing however. This change should save me about 1 END every 4 seconds. Call it enough to run Fire Cages one more time per fight. No wonder I didn't notice. Probably made up for that by getting stunned and KBed more often so that I ran fewer powers.

[ QUOTE ]
A massive nerf would be to make it a Repulsion Field clone.

[/ QUOTE ]

We differ there, I consider removing 50% or more of a power's effectiveness to be a massive nerf.

Tal_N

04-12-2006, 12:57 AM

Sounds fairer though, afterall the ability also has a knockback effect so in PvP and PvE its offering some decent crowd control. Too bad it can't be used for herding enemies into a corner now though but on the plus side its actually improved the synergy with Ice Control on my ice/stormie since it can be used and won't instantly force enemies outside of the other AoE powers effective them.

Freem

04-12-2006, 02:23 AM

So it's a nerf, but not a big nerf because it was buffed endwise?

I don't think it's a big nerf as nerfs go. But some of us used it for its strong repel effect as well as its debuff effect. Very good for those people who didn't like the repel effect, but it destroys a certain way I can play my toon. The way of play of people who have learnt to work with the repel and/or use it. People who continue to use to use the power (still a very good power) will just use it in another way.

All this from a PvE angle. Oh, it was very useful PvE-wise. I mainly PvE after all, and I don't PvP on my stormie. Why would I lie to maintain any illusionary PvP advantage?

I feel a lot of frustration over this patch, I'm just not expressing it.

StrangeMatter

04-12-2006, 05:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Darwin was right. Those who do not adapt will die...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think his contribution was more along the lines of: "Things change"

MissDemeanor

04-12-2006, 06:20 AM

I look at it not as 'massive nerf' but rather as 'maybe a change to my slotting is in order'. It's still an excellent defensive power, and cheap toggles with this (really rather awesome) effect...can't hate those. Shuffling the slots around isn't a big problem.

Galactor

04-12-2006, 06:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but again this shows why NON pvpers despise pvp so damn much.

IT sucks the life out of the pve game even if you never touch pvp.

Pvp stinks, it never helps and usually hurts and adds to the game for very very few people.

Go to any pvp zone and listen to crickets chirp.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a Champions player that has played COH from the beginning. I can only say WRONG. PvP RULES! It shows exactly who can REALLY be a super crime fighter. Anyone can perform cookie cutter repetitive combat strategies against computer AI baddies. I waited for a YEAR for PvP because the best AI in the game to fight against is another player. Every one of my toons are built for PvP and guess what? They all kick butt in PvE missions as well. I'm sure that with the hurricane power changes, everyone will come up with new cookie cutter repetitive strategies for amassing XP in the name of 'getting to 50 as fast as humanly possible'. Here's an idea for helping with your stormie nerf complaints: get a tanker on your team.

Lxndr

04-12-2006, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has this been confirmed?

Peteroid

04-12-2006, 07:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Darwin was right. Those who do not adapt will die...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think his contribution was more along the lines of: "Things change"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he did also say the equivalent of 'things change' (evolutoin). But survival of the fitest is more along the idea that adaption is required to continue existence (of the species).

And Darwin probably saw a few hurricanes in his travels (how about that pathetic attempt to get back on topic? lol)...

Primal

04-12-2006, 08:25 AM

You know, our problem really isn't with PvP per se, nor is it with those who enjoy PvP. The problem comes when PvP starts to dictate what goes on in PvE. I and others were encouraged at the beginning, when it really looked like PvP and PvE were really going to be separate entities. Looks like that philosophy has gone the way of the dodo.

It's not really the "nerf", you know. The reduction is minor to the point where most could just shrug it off. It's the principle of the thing. The game's not doomed by any means.

Whatever. We said it was gonna happen, and we were right. I do wonder if this is where it will stop.

BlueWrecker

04-12-2006, 09:16 AM

Was Hurricane for NPC mobs (Sorcerors/Tsoo bosses/Witches) also correctly reduced/"fixed" as it was 'broken'?

BlueWrecker

04-12-2006, 09:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has this been confirmed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in Patch Notes I don't believe. If so another Patch oversight...

BlueWrecker

04-12-2006, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, our problem really isn't with PvP per se, nor is it with those who enjoy PvP. The problem comes when PvP starts to dictate what goes on in PvE. I and others were encouraged at the beginning, when it really looked like PvP and PvE were really going to be separate entities. Looks like that philosophy has gone the way of the dodo.

It's not really the "nerf", you know. The reduction is minor to the point where most could just shrug it off. It's the principle of the thing. The game's not doomed by any means.

Whatever. We said it was gonna happen, and we were right. I do wonder if this is where it will stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't there actually a post from Statesman that said code existed to easily make powers work differently in each side? PVE/PVP zones?

KwaZulu

04-12-2006, 09:24 AM

I love Hurricane.
It was too strong in PvP.
It was Very strong in PvE.
I never saw anyone push mobs around with, it other than myself, in almost 2 years of playing.
I'll add a knockback slot in there to conpensate.
I ain't a thang. I'll make it work the way I want, or make it work as it is to my advantage, no matter what.
I guess Gale will need a second Acc slot, since it looks like I'll actually need it more often.

BlueWrecker

04-12-2006, 09:26 AM

For what it's worth, I *love* Gale with my mind/storm controller. I'm six slotting that puppy. 2 acc (maybe 3, maybe), 2 recharge, 2 end. That plus TK, plus Hurricane, equals Mobs go where I tell them to. I love the trifecta...

Midgardener

04-12-2006, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Was Hurricane for NPC mobs (Sorcerors/Tsoo bosses/Witches) also correctly reduced/"fixed" as it was 'broken'?

[/ QUOTE ]
If these guys aren't getting the full second ticks, I'll be... completely unsurprised. Like Paragon Protectors and their older less rank version of Moment of Glory, right */Regenners?. Frankly, as a PvEer with miniscule interest in PvP, I'm irritated that the devs got their PvP nerfbat in my PvE fun. These two tastes don't taste great together. Endurance be damned, it was the lowest draining toggle a Storm character had aside from what, Combat Jumping? Thanks for the convenient side-effect! Ooh, a slot to move to Gale! :p

I liked trying to push mobs in corners, dammit. It wasn't as if they couldn't run by me often enough anyways to make it challenging. Why not a half second tick? Aren't most 'tick' powers set to that nowadays? Bah.

Mr_Jaytastic

04-12-2006, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't there actually a post from Statesman that said code existed to easily make powers work differently in each side? PVE/PVP zones?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know about the "easily" part, but they do have the tech to make things different in PvE and PvP...

1. Controller x3 damage in PvP, x2 in PvE
2. Smoke does an accuracy check in PvP, does not in PvE
3. Superspeed gives no stealth in PvP, gives stealth in PvE

...off the top of my head.

Stormbringer

04-12-2006, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

hurricane was never overpowered.

there were and are plenty of counters for it.

the reason it got nerfed is because it's a debuff power and inexperienced players are more inclined to complain about a debuff power 'cuz it affects their toons negatively. notice how few people complain about clear mind or clarity--they're buffs.

it spooks me a bit to see this happening, but i think the devs will continue to nerf debuff powers in the interest of an ill-formed notion of balance until this phenomenon becomes clear to them.

hurricane was never unbalanced in pvp. at least not when compared to powers like sonic cage, detention field, clear mind, clarity...

the cries against it were unjustified.

the nerf was inappropriate.

iakona_NA

04-12-2006, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has this been confirmed?

[/ QUOTE ]
Confirmed by _Castle_ in a PM to me on April 3. The new end/sec cost was an unintentional side effect of decreasing the tick frequency, but he sees no need to change it now.

iakona_NA

04-12-2006, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Was Hurricane for NPC mobs (Sorcerors/Tsoo bosses/Witches) also correctly reduced/"fixed" as it was 'broken'?

[/ QUOTE ]
All NPC versions of Hurricane remain unchanged. They tick every 0.5 seconds for 0.35 endurance.

Primal

04-12-2006, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Was Hurricane for NPC mobs (Sorcerors/Tsoo bosses/Witches) also correctly reduced/"fixed" as it was 'broken'?

[/ QUOTE ]
All NPC versions of Hurricane remain unchanged. They tick every 0.5 seconds for 0.35 endurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Color me completely unsurprised.

...If that's true. :D

Castle

04-12-2006, 11:05 AM

PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

Battle_Raccoon

04-12-2006, 11:25 AM

Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.

Robotech_Master

04-12-2006, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't be possible, no. Power effects for PVP and PVE are not decided on a "what zone you're in" basis; they're decided on a "what kind of enemy is attacking you" basis. And Repel ticks the same no matter if you're being attacked by players, NPCs, or even not attacked at all.

Midgardener

04-12-2006, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be for that, or at least the whatever the NPCs have. That's the rhubarb-rubber.

Stormbringer

04-12-2006, 01:05 PM

this sucks.

it's a flat out nerf for pve and pvp.

the power is significantly less useful now because it's even less reliable for positioning or holding mobs.

in pvp, it's now SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER for blasters, scrappers, tanks, stalkers, brutes and corrupters to melee a storm.

the end reduction in NO WAY makes up for the overall downgrading of this power.

sorry all, but this change blows.

Soyuz

04-12-2006, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I liked trying to push mobs in corners, dammit. It wasn't as if they couldn't run by me often enough anyways to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is what puzzles me.

In PvE, mobs cornered with Hurricane will eel out from under it with surprising ease. You actually have to work to keep anything cornered with the power. Disoriented mobs are by far the worst right now, and are practically guaranteed to escape from a hurricane pin. It's been that way since the game was released.

When PvP came along, Hurricane really surprised me (not that I PvP much). I could get people pinned with it and they'd stay that way. I actually did a bit of testing with a friend of mine who also has a stormy on the go, because I couldn't believe that the repel's effects could be so different dependent on the target. However, in practice it turned out that he could easily pin me and there wasn't a whole lot I could do to escape. It didn't seem that the power was working the same way in PvP as I was used to it working in PvE.

So what's different? If the power's the working the same way in both contexts, it has to be the mobs.

Over on test right now, it's a lot harder to keep mobs pinned with Hurricane than it is on live, and it's not all that easy on live. Change the mobs so that they respond to repel more like players and this change could be fine. Otherwise it's just making a difficult set even more tricky to play in PvE.

Cheers,

~R~

Split_Light

04-12-2006, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll caveat this by saying I haven't had a chance to really try it out yet. That said, this is a LAME excuse. The endurance cost of Hurricane was never an impediment. one stamina reducer and I was good to go.

After the lengths they've gone to to state that they won't balance PvE based on PvP needs, I just kinda find this a cheap cop out. It won't make me give up my stormy, who is my current favorite character, but I'm disappointed.

Circuit_Boy

04-12-2006, 01:20 PM

Was the ToHit Debuff tick rate reduced by half or more, too?

Mr_Jaytastic

04-12-2006, 01:23 PM

I think most players are willing to pay the price of higher end cost for a good power

We've seen it plenty of times. Remember when ih cost a bunch? It didnt stop anyone from running it all the time, and no one complained about it. I dont remember saying "ih's cost is way too much for its effect" because it wasnt...ih was uber.

FA...here's another one. Very high end cost. And yet you see it all the time and no one complains because...people are willing to pay that price for its effect.

Hurricane...even with its high end cost and the high end cost of all the other storm powers, people again didnt complain. They made it work, and loved it.

Two of my examples were for scrappers, and I know regen and all the end recovery they get. But every single AT has ways to recover end if you so chose, in their primary, secondary, or APPs. If the end cost really bothers you that much, you can take a power to deal with it, you can slot differently, you can carry a lot of blues, whatever. But we've made it work for quite some time.

So, in the end I think people are more then willing to pay higher end for the great powers, instead of paying less end for a watered-down version.

EDIT:reworded

SDragon

04-12-2006, 01:50 PM

I don't think that when he said that he ment that lower end was them balenceing the power. Seemed more matter of factly to me.

Lobster

04-12-2006, 01:50 PM

You know, I really, really loved hurricane pushing/herding (but not the tank-gather-up-50-mobs kind of herding, I mean in the actual sense of herding/pushing things where I want them) on my original main, my fire/storm (still my only character to make it to 50). I take the loss of reliable gentle repulsion (very good melee protection), basically completely based on PVP issues as real insult. This used to be my favorite power, the crowning jewel of the storm set (for a user that knew what they were doing).

Would it be so hard just to nerf the PVP effectiveness? Put in a separate check for players and non-players? Maybe...but this still seems silly. I don't think a gentle swirling breeze is a good substitute for a raging hurricane.

I won't cry DOOOM yet, but I suspect that I probably will after I go home and test it.

Zen_Concern

04-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Well this is one way to make trick arrow look better. Expect to see to-hit buffs nerfed to make Trick Arrow even better. Wait, that happened.

Oh snap! Heals are probably next! DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!

All joking aside, this does have a rather unpleasent side effect in PvE that makes storm harder to use now. Storm always had the ability to create chaos but Hurricane was a toll that good stormers could use to mitigate the chaos.

From checking it out myself, it seems as if the ability of a player to play smart and use their powers to compliment their other powers has been nerfed indirectly by this change to Hurricane. The loss of positioning power means that mobs can frequently run by a Stormer only to be repelled at the wrong time and the stormer can end up scattering mobs worse than his own power.

For small groups, this doesn't seem to be a problem, but when there are large groups of enemy and your own group is spreading out the agro, it can cause alot of problems.

While the developers may have felt that it was necessary to change this power, I feel they have down a disservice to the defender community. Controllers are not as hard hit by this as defenders are, and this change just put storm controllers even further ahead of storm defenders when it comes to the ability to use storm powers to maximum effect.

That is the other side effect of this change.

Ayanel

04-12-2006, 01:57 PM

I wish I could say I was surprised, but I’m not, just very, very, very disappointed. Something is wrong in this game, I have played a lot of MMOs for many years and I have never seen the kind of wholesale nerfing I see here at every turn.

Patches are not defined by the new content they bring but the capabilities that they take away…

Mr_Jaytastic

04-12-2006, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I feel they have down a disservice to the defender community. Controllers are not as hard hit by this as defenders are, and this change just put storm controllers even further ahead of storm defenders when it comes to the ability to use storm powers to maximum effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats true. One difference I've noticed between storm controllers and storm defenders...storm controllers run hurricane when its absolutely necessary, but for the most part they dont...their AoE mez powers are the ultimate accuracy debuff. Storm defenders on the other hand, from what I ve noticed, run hurricane from the second they zone into the mission, and they run it continuously.

Con_Artist

04-12-2006, 02:04 PM

It's about time. :D That power was so cheap.

Shadow_Stone

04-12-2006, 02:06 PM

This just sucks. Every freaking character I have played has been nerfed to high heaven. My regen scrapper sits on the shelf because of the huge nerfs to IH and basicaly all the powers in that line, and the huge nerf to stealth as a power.

So Now I play my Storm defender, and I find out most of my primary powers are equal or better in the hands of a controller since slows are controller territory. ED made the secondaries largely worthless, making soloing much more slow and painful.

Now my debuffs are nerfed significantly. And to top it off, my signature power has been nerfed signifcantly! Not only is it less effective at debuffing, but now it will not even protect me from melee damage as it was orginaly implemented. We all know how good defender self-defense is (piss poor), lets make it worse. Sure Huirricane was very powerful, but it was easily overcome with any ranged power, including mez, sleep, holds which shut it off. Gee Stalkers can't one shot a defender with hurricane on, oh the inhumanity! Instead of making folks have to take a level 20 pool power, and all that entails to get it, to overcome it like most players have to do to even see a double stealthed stalker, we just nerf the power. Why? because it is just a defender, they are supposed to be crapped on. Remember when Defenders had more hit points than blasters and controllers? Remember when they had some blasts that actualy were worth using? Remember when debuffing was something valuable to team and was not a poor man's controller? I do. And I miss that game.

Gee, I get break on end costs for it now...whoop de doo!!!! Of course wasn't ED and our "largely worthless inherent power supposed to help with that?

You guys beat everything. All you guys do is nerf, nerf, nerf. We ask for more content for 35-40 range in CoH and you ignore it. We ask for customizable colors and animations on our powers, screw you. Scrappers have how many choices for power sets compared to all of the other classes???? Of course Masterminds get new ones ahead of scrappers, it is very clear, everything you are doing is for CoV and virtualy nothing for CoH. The evidence supports this.

I am fed up. You grow a charcter over a long period of time, and they continue to be reduced in effectiveness. Was the game too easy? For some classes clearly. Are you doing a good job of involving players in the solution, hell no.

All we get these days are stealth nerfs, where someone goes to test and finds out about the nerf or a veiled dev reference in a rare post hints at something.

I am very disgruntled and I am not hopeful where the direction this game is headed. Even the release of I7 is a joke as I imagine there will be a Wednesday update talking about how in I7 there will be differnt colors of stone as you string along the users for at least another couple of months feeding them breadcrumbs and holding the carrot on the proverbial string in front of all the jack [censored] we have become.

prof_chaos

04-12-2006, 02:24 PM

Ouch, I really really don't like this change.
Come on, 100 people do PvP, 2000 don't... why again do we have to affect 2000 people so 100 have it better?
I used hurricane as a 'melee repeler', when things went south I would turn on hurricane so mobs wouldn't get to me... now that's not possible with a slower 'tick' that just means the mob will be repelled from my corpse :(

Well there will be a free respec with I7 so guess it's time to remove hurricane from my set, pity as it made perfect sense RP-wise, but I'm not picking a power only so I can use it in Pocket-D for flavor

Quickshadow

04-12-2006, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This just sucks. Every freaking character I have played has been nerfed to high heaven. My regen scrapper sits on the shelf because of the huge nerfs to IH and basicaly all the powers in that line, and the huge nerf to stealth as a power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regen is still considered the best overall scrapper secondary for PvE and PvP. While it's not as head and shoulders above the other secondaries as it was, most regen scrappers find it still to be extremely playable, except when fighting spawns of +7s or trying to solo a mid-large sized team's worth of spawns.

[ QUOTE ]
So Now I play my Storm defender, and I find out most of my primary powers are equal or better in the hands of a controller since slows are controller territory. ED made the secondaries largely worthless, making soloing much more slow and painful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can't argue that there's a problem with powers from defender primaries being as or more useful in the hands of a controller who gets it as the secondary, but this has little to do with ED. The controller version of defender powers get exactly the same nerfs. Controller versions of some powers were ALWAYS better than the defender versions.

[ QUOTE ]
Now my debuffs are nerfed significantly. And to top it off, my signature power has been nerfed signifcantly! Not only is it less effective at debuffing, but now it will not even protect me from melee damage as it was orginaly implemented. We all know how good defender self-defense is (piss poor), lets make it worse. Sure Huirricane was very powerful, but it was easily overcome with any ranged power, including mez, sleep, holds which shut it off. Gee Stalkers can't one shot a defender with hurricane on, oh the inhumanity! Instead of making folks have to take a level 20 pool power, and all that entails to get it, to overcome it like most players have to do to even see a double stealthed stalker, we just nerf the power. Why? because it is just a defender, they are supposed to be crapped on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this is the rare example of powers being nerfed in PvP BECAUSE of PvE. With the upcoming defense changes, higher level and higher rank enemies (which most defenders fight) will have significantly reduced to hit, meaning that a lower strength debuff will have a proportionately equal (or in the case of very high level/rank enemies) greater effect than it does now. It's a nerf when fighting even to +1, nearly equal in effectiveness against +2s, and a buff when faced with +3s or higher IIRC. Unfortunately, because of the way the game is coded, they can't make this power work differently against players than against mobs. I suspect you'll find that stalkers will still have a very difficult time AS'ing you with hurricane on.

[ QUOTE ]
Gee, I get break on end costs for it now...whoop de doo!!!! Of course wasn't ED and our "largely worthless inherent power supposed to help with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of my storm defender, both helped my end usage noticeably.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys beat everything. All you guys do is nerf, nerf, nerf. We ask for more content for 35-40 range in CoH and you ignore it. We ask for customizable colors and animations on our powers, screw you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Animations and new zones are significantly more work than power tweaks. Significantly. As in a lot. This issue was focused on COV content, and we knew that from the beginning. While I'm not thrilled with it, it was necessary in order for some of the content of both games (PvP, particularly base raids) to not be a one-sided affair. This issue will bring a new zone shared by the games and a new COV zone. It brings some new COV powersets which may make their way over to COH, even if only some of the powers do as epics (Who wouldn't want to see some of the electric melee/armor powers as scrapper or tank APPs?). Customizable colors may not be a big deal, but I'd guess they're combining them with customized powers/weapons, and that is a huge deal. The devs have repeatedly noted what a huge time sink animations are to do. They've stated that they are working on this, and I'm inclined to believe them. I'm pretty sure the purpose is not to 'screw us'.

[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers have how many choices for power sets compared to all of the other classes????

[/ QUOTE ]

6 Primaries, 4 secondaries.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course Masterminds get new ones ahead of scrappers, it is very clear, everything you are doing is for CoV and virtualy nothing for CoH. The evidence supports this.

[/ QUOTE ]

MMs have 4 primaries and 4 secondaries. That's less btw. Yes, we knew this issue was going to be mainly a COV focus since they released the first info months ago. It's their new game and they want to get the two games a bit balanced to make the inter-game content more doable, which means more usable content for BOTH games.

[ QUOTE ]
I am fed up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hear that.

[ QUOTE ]
You grow a charcter over a long period of time, and they continue to be reduced in effectiveness. Was the game too easy? For some classes clearly. Are you doing a good job of involving players in the solution, hell no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's just wrong. Yes, they ignore the vast majority of player suggestions. Why? Because there's thousands upon thousands of them, and most of them are undoable or would be just bad for the game. There are several things that were suggested by players, although those players may have come to regret them. Notably travel suppression and ED were player suggestions. More recently, the bodyguard power coming to MMs is the result of player complaints about MMs ability to PvP I would guess, and Castle worked closely with a number of players on the new claws changes. The mob 'to hit' changes are the results of a steady complaint of defense not scaling v. resistance which does scale.

[ QUOTE ]
get these days are stealth nerfs, where someone goes to test and finds out about the nerf or a veiled dev reference in a rare post hints at something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that there are too many changes which get missed in the patch notes. However, I see no reason why they would do so intentionally since they have to know by now that those changes will be picked up rather quickly by the players. I find Statesman's explanation that it's due primarilly to sloppiness believable. I don't think that's an explanation we should be satisfied about, but it's hardly a conspiracy. Hopefully they'll get their inter-department communication improved.

[ QUOTE ]
I am very disgruntled and I am not hopeful where the direction this game is headed. Even the release of I7 is a joke as I imagine there will be a Wednesday update talking about how in I7 there will be differnt colors of stone as you string along the users for at least another couple of months feeding them breadcrumbs and holding the carrot on the proverbial string in front of all the jack [censored] we have become.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think we could tell you were disgruntled. However, while you may consider yourself a "jack[censored]" for being "strung along", I still enjoy the game a great deal. I level just as rapidly as before ED, even though I'm fighting enemies closer to my level, and enjoy having to figure out the best way to use my powers rather than mashing buttons. Obviously, the devs can't keep everyone happy, and you're version of a fun game is probably different than mine. But the tone of your post is completely unwarranted. You act surprised that I-7 is COVcentric. We've known this for months. COV had several holes that needed to be filled in, it needed to catch up with COH in terms of level cap, and needed a new zone when it did, and even after I-7 will be a bit short on powerset choices compared to COH. If you can't understand or accept that, no one's making you play. If you think this sort of insulting rant furthers your cause, you're wrong.

Tal_N

04-12-2006, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked Hurricane didn't draw additional endurance for repelling foes. It was different from the likes of Whirlwind and the kinetics Repel power in that sense as those actually do knockback not repel.

So the endurance cost is not lowered due to the less frequent pulses.

Lxndr

04-12-2006, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked Hurricane didn't draw additional endurance for repelling foes. It was different from the likes of Whirlwind and the kinetics Repel power in that sense as those actually do knockback not repel.

So the endurance cost is not lowered due to the less frequent pulses.

[/ QUOTE ]

The endurance cost was per pulse. So, since there are less pulses, there is a smaller cost. The # of enemies affected is immaterial to the pulses.

Starfox_NA

04-12-2006, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you not thinking of Repel, Whirlwind and the pother powers that have a cost for eacmob repelled? Hurricane has no such cost, and thus won't get an end cost rebate. Or am I misundestanding something?

Vort

04-12-2006, 03:29 PM

Hurricane costs you end per tic, I think.

GeorgeN

04-12-2006, 03:34 PM

This change is a real bummer to me. Did Storm defenders need to be made substantially more difficult to play in PvE? As a long time player of the AT I don't think so. Hurricane was one of the set defining powers; now it is approximately 1/4 as effective as it was. Super, shades of the CoF over kill nerf all over again (once a really unique and cool power).

Now that the thing pulses 1/4 as often, has the debuff been extended to be at least 4 times as long?

Stormbringer

04-12-2006, 03:34 PM

so...

are hurricane's -range and -to hit debuffs only applied once per second now as well? or is it just the repel that was nerfed?

if i have to stand next to a mob for a full second to land my debuffs i'm going to be eating a lot of dirt...

Cuddles

04-12-2006, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ouch, I really really don't like this change.
Come on, 100 people do PvP, 2000 don't... why again do we have to affect 2000 people so 100 have it better?
I used hurricane as a 'melee repeler', when things went south I would turn on hurricane so mobs wouldn't get to me... now that's not possible with a slower 'tick' that just means the mob will be repelled from my corpse :(

Well there will be a free respec with I7 so guess it's time to remove hurricane from my set, pity as it made perfect sense RP-wise, but I'm not picking a power only so I can use it in Pocket-D for flavor

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know there was 2000 people who ran Hurricane...
:p
Yeah I liked Ballista the way it was.
It was a challange, it was hard to do, and when I got done I actually felt like I had fought a real battle. But the PvE crowd [censored] and cried so much that the only real challange in this game got nerfed.

Windy_Babe

04-12-2006, 04:35 PM

I just want to voice my disapproval and disgust here in this thread. I'm sick to death of useful powers for PvE getting nerfed for PvP play.

Note to Devs: You ARE having PvPers leave this game for other games, so stop neglecting the larger player base of people who prefer PvE.

I don't care too much about PvP nerfs, but totally negating WHY I took the power...to protect squishes, to herdicane, to cause more chaos when things are going downhill..... I'm just sick about it.

---sincerely, a Stormie since October 2004

KidQwik

04-12-2006, 05:10 PM

I'm so happy about this nerf. Now melee has a chance to hit stormers. Hurricane was the new Instand Healing. A power that made you untouchable. Hopefully this nerfs works well, otherwise I hope they chop it some more. If anything it should have been made into a click like Instant Healing.

Mr_Jaytastic

04-12-2006, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hurricane was the new Instand Healing. A power that made you untouchable

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats hilarious. As someone who has used ih when it was a toggle and hurricane before yesterday...its not even close. Blasters can three-hit me. Em stalkers stun me, then AS me. Scrappers or tanks with fa hit through it plenty. Scrappers with ih also have mez protection, something with most stormies dont have (iw is around 60% of the time for those with it, so its not close to perma either), so a simple hold drops hurricane easy. Ih scrappers are infintely harder to kill.

Save the ridiculous claims.

TheShifty

04-12-2006, 05:31 PM

Hmmm, is it at all possible to just make the repel effect correspondingly stronger so that the average push speed is the same while the slower ticks still allow enough time for players in PvP to escape pinning?

Ayanel

04-12-2006, 05:34 PM

FrontSideBus

04-12-2006, 06:21 PM

This sucks. Yet another case of PvP over the PvE game. Hurricane was a great tool for clumping mobs together, putting them where you wanted them. I just tried it out and it is USELESS for that purpose. Yes, it still debuffs, buff if thats all I [censored] wanted it for I would be a rad or a dark. THANKS Devs for finally realizing after TWO YEARS that it is over powered and needs to be changed.

A good storm could overcome the the scatter of their powerset....no more. Thanks for making team harder for us.

CommunistPenguin

04-12-2006, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.

And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.

So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.

[/ QUOTE ]

repel was part of the power. Personalyl this really depressses me. Repel worked great weith the power. now it has a tick longer than the kinetic power repel? ugh, thats just...ugh.

CommunistPenguin

04-12-2006, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My main is a Storm. I love Storm. It makes me happy in my happy places. I'm also not only not going to complain about this nerf, but I'm going to take it and run gleefully.

Why? Simple.
1) With the I7 changes, the drop in the to-hit debuff really isn't going to be significant.
2) I don't *want* the enemy repelled out of the area of my debuff effects.
3) Any time I'm in a situation where I really want to push something away from me, the knockback does just fine - if not from Hurricane, then from the bajillion other effects I have that cause it.
4) This reduction in power will help weed out the weak ones and force the people who relied on it as a crutch to use the rest of their tools in Storm's powerful and wonderful toolkit instead of becoming dependent on a single power.
5) Now I can stop listening to everybody and their mother who PvPs whine like a small child about how much they hate Hurricane and how much they're looking forward to seeing it nerfed because they're too poor of players to figure out ways to beat it. (And there are ways. Many, many ways.)
6) The power is still viable, still effective, and still worthy of being called Storm Summoning's signature power. This isn't the nerfing Regen got. This isn't the massive drop in power tankers have taken from the many, many nerfs they've been on the recieving end of. This isn't even the slightly-worse-than-a-papercut dropoff a lot of blasters took this same patch with the loss of Whirlwind negating animation times. I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

your an idiot. Liking a nerf because it *could* of been worse is by far teh most retarded thing ive ever heard of. Was this nerf needed in pve? no, then why is it applied there? I did not use hurricanne as a crutch, but now the specific times i did use it are now effectively useless. It sounds liek you want to be able to keep it on permanently and suffer no consequenses, like you want to use it more of a crutch than anything else.

FrontSideBus

04-12-2006, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Patches are not defined by the new content they bring but the capabilities that they take away…

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Cuddles

04-12-2006, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.

And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.

So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.

[/ QUOTE ]

repel was part of the power. Personalyl this really depressses me. Repel worked great weith the power. now it has a tick longer than the kinetic power repel? ugh, thats just...ugh.

[/ QUOTE ]
But the Kinetic power is a knockback, costs more in Endurance, doesn't do - Range, and doesn't Debuff the Target they touch.
Hurricane IS a Repel (1 of only 3 Powers that have this effect), does - Range, does Debuff, cost's less in Endurance, and does Knockback...

Comparing the Kinetic Repel (which is actually Kncokback not Repel ) and Hurricane your going to come out on the loosing end. Hurricane is so much better it's not even funny. It's still one of the best Toggle powers in the game. It's just not Godly in power but Uber instead.

Time_Titan

04-12-2006, 09:17 PM

FrontSideBus

04-12-2006, 09:35 PM

Dust_Storm

04-12-2006, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Comparing the Kinetic Repel (which is actually Kncokback not Repel ) and Hurricane your going to come out on the loosing end. Hurricane is so much better it's not even funny. It's still one of the best Toggle powers in the game. It's just not Godly in power but Uber instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you comparing Kinetic's Repel to Storm's Hurricane? That's like comparing Kinetic's Fulcrum Shift to Storm's Freezing Rain. They both increase damage right?

I'm sorry, but Kinetics is a completely different powerset with a completely different playstyle, and trying to compare the individual powers is meaningless. The whole sets need to be compared. As far as I know, Repel is skipped by a lot of Kinetics, is taken for 'fun' by many others, and only a relatively few actually use it as a serious power. Hurricane on the other hand is one of the signature powers of Storm which almost every Storm Defender will take and adapt their playstyle to use. To illustrate my point, imagine the two sets with the powers removed. Would Kinetics be just as effective as today? Yes. Would Storm? Hell no.

Since the patch notes ONLY mention PvP, they are misleading. The Devs have said they would not change PvE due solely to PvP issues, yet this seems to be exactly what they did with Hurricane. If there is a PvE issue with the pre-patch Hurricane, then please _Castle_, Statesman, Positron, someone post what that issue is. If in fact there is no issue with Hurricane and PvE, then the current design should be considered a bug IMO.

I'm reserving judgement on the change until I get a chance to test it with my 50 Storm/Elec. Will I be as effective as before? Possibly. Will I have to change the playstyle I've developed over a year of play and 50 levels? Yes. Will I like it as much as before? I'll have to wait and see but I didn't get to 50 with Storm for the hell of it, I really liked it as it was...

QuiJon

04-12-2006, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I liked trying to push mobs in corners, dammit. It wasn't as if they couldn't run by me often enough anyways to make it challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is what puzzles me.

In PvE, mobs cornered with Hurricane will eel out from under it with surprising ease. You actually have to work to keep anything cornered with the power. Disoriented mobs are by far the worst right now, and are practically guaranteed to escape from a hurricane pin. It's been that way since the game was released.

When PvP came along, Hurricane really surprised me (not that I PvP much). I could get people pinned with it and they'd stay that way. I actually did a bit of testing with a friend of mine who also has a stormy on the go, because I couldn't believe that the repel's effects could be so different dependent on the target. However, in practice it turned out that he could easily pin me and there wasn't a whole lot I could do to escape. It didn't seem that the power was working the same way in PvP as I was used to it working in PvE.

So what's different? If the power's the working the same way in both contexts, it has to be the mobs.

Over on test right now, it's a lot harder to keep mobs pinned with Hurricane than it is on live, and it's not all that easy on live. Change the mobs so that they respond to repel more like players and this change could be fine. Otherwise it's just making a difficult set even more tricky to play in PvE.

Cheers,

~R~

[/ QUOTE ]

The repel in Huricane is fun yes, but more importantly to me is the debuffing. And though the power hasnt had a nerf to the amount of to-hit duffing it does by numbers, this change worries me cause if enemies arent pinned within hurricane and come free of it easier, then it has.

Huricanes effects were not exactly but closely in radius to its cloud. If mobs in PVE or PVP can escape easier then the debuffing it did is more easily removed. Lessening what to me was the more important aspect of the power, that of keeping someone bebuffed more then keeping them stationary.

A change like this requires a change in the way the power debuffs, one or two things. Either the radius of the cloud should be expanded to debuff well outside teh cloud/repel area so mobs in a wider area are debuffed even if not being repeled, or the power should leave some taint on those it does for a time trap. Meanign if you cover a mob in the cloud, then say for 15 or 20 seconds after they escape the debuff should still be effecting them.

Cuddles

04-13-2006, 12:35 AM

If I understand it correctly your Endurance usage for this power is based of the tick of the Repel which means that the Endurance usage for Hurricane just went down alot. Some of the problems I hear about Storm is it's Endurance usage. If I'm right then Hurricane recieved a major Endurance reduction for a minor reduction in the Repel effect. I could be mistaken in this area though and please correct me if I'm wrong.

Either way the power is far from useless and is uber in it's own right. I can ask any Storm Defender or Controller right now if there going to respec Hurricane out of there build due to this nerf and they wil say No. It would be like me saying that Unyielding is pointless to take because they added a -5% to Defense and lowered the Mag protection. It's making Mountains out of Mole Hills.

Now on to the something that was remarked upon over a year ago before PvP even came into the picture. There's been numerous posts by Dev's stating that some issues they just can't seperate one from the other. To try and hold onto one statement after repeated statements by Devs that some things can't be worked around is being petty. I'm absolutly horid to the Dev's and I know it. I hold them to a high standard. I do want them to fix the Bugs that are in this game before they nerf a power but I also understand that some things are done to try and bring balance. What I won't do though is keep holding onto one statement by one individual. The Game changes and even I understand that. They could have changed Hurricane and how it works like they did to Instant Healing. Take it with a grain of salt that they adjusted the tick time of Repel from .25 to 1 second.

Also to clarify I wasn't the one who started comparing Hurricane to the Kinetic Repel first. I was just trying to enlighten an individual.

One other thing.... Could you please fix Knockout Blow. Please. I'm begging you here. I just want to be able to hit somebody as there running by. Pretty please with sugar on top...

Rasta_NA

04-13-2006, 02:10 AM

I fought my first post nerf hurricanes today. On my stalker.
I could always eventually kill them before.
Now they are just like any other squishy to me.
Easier actually, because they still think they are safe in that hurricane.
I used to SS joust them. It would usually take me 5 or 6 tries to get a hit.
Now, I don't miss. It's not the to-hit debuff either, I have BU and ACC's, they usu overcame the debuffs.

Pre nerf, It was difficult to get within melee range due to the repel. Now I barely notice the repel.
For the first time ever, I stood next to the stormie many times and would get combos on him! wow.

I'm sorry they did this to you. Once, ya'll were one of my favorite tough targets. Now, you're just another squishie.

I assume repel and Force bubble and the other powers that mimic hurricane will be getting this same sort of change.
I don't like it. Ya'll were much more fun as tough targets.

Spiked_Hammer

04-13-2006, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so happy about this nerf. Now melee has a chance to hit stormers. Hurricane was the new Instand Healing. A power that made you untouchable. Hopefully this nerfs works well, otherwise I hope they chop it some more. If anything it should have been made into a click like Instant Healing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I too am glad they made this change, Im not happy for the reasons your implying. I've hit a stormie with Hurricane on using KO Blow, Hurl with my brute or even Focus with my Stalker. But when I was playing my other toons; scrapper, tanker...the Stormie was normally untouchable...just another toon you ignore kinda like a stone granited tank. Only difference was that this toon could effect you a lot more than a crawling stone tank ever could.

And again...this is based on PvP, im sure there are those that really used hurricane mainly/solely for PvE purposes...but obviously a fair lot used it for its PvP godmode or I doubt this adjustment/nerf would have even been thought about. At least the true dedicated Stormies wont have to worry about being FoTM anymore.

TheShifty

04-13-2006, 03:42 AM

After using the new hurricane in Siren's for awhile I made the following observations:

-It still seems as though most melee attacks miss, perhaps one every 4 swings hit me on average. A great deal more than before, but not too serious. A to-hit buff or multiple ACC SOs should give them the ability to land most hits.

Those with such to-hit or multiple acc SOs hit consistently enough that they don't have to joust anymore. I noticed that some players would miss constantly, while other other players hardly missed at all. The ones with high accuracy builds just walked right into the hurricane and pounded me down. The others would spend a lot of time missing.

-Moving around constantly as if I was a non-storm player while still keeping hurricane up still kept me from being defeated by melee attacks. The repel isn't as near-invincible like it was before, but it still makes a constantly superjumping hurricaner a very slippery target.

-Landing in a hotspot with hurricane on costs a LOT of health now. Most mob attacks still missed, but I'm taking much more damage than before when I tried to help in hotspot battles using hurricane. This hurricane change must /really/ suck for those still engaged in PvE, luckily my ill/storm hit 50 a long time ago, before the kheldians were added.

Things I did to try to adapt:
-Don't stand around the squishies. This was advisable before the change in case of jousters dropping directly down on you, but is absolutely necessary now. Don't protect squishies from melee by letting them sit in the hurricane with you, the repel just isn't enough. You'll just have to jump around in the immediate vicinity of the squishies to protect them. The hurricane island melee-free zone doesn't exist anymore.

-Something that helped a little to create an AS-free zone for the squishies was to TPfoe a lieutenant mob into your team, hold it, then Snow Storm it, and have your teammates stay inside the snowstorm. This also helps a bit when TPFoeing fliers, this way you don't need to undergo that incredibly long Snow Storm animation to apply the -fly(Also, snow storm's activation range is much much shorter than my TPfoe's range). Now you've got Snowstorm to foul up AS, it'll give -spd and more importantly, -recharge to melee ATs that try to get in there to attack the squishies, and you'll still be buzzing around with hurricane to apply the acc debuff and knockback.

You'll need to work with teammates who won't kill the lieutenant, and though lts take a little while to kill, you'll have to replace it occassionally. If they choose to attack your lt to kill it, then at least that lt. is taking a hit that a teammate would've taken instead.

----------------------------------
I'm just leaving my /subjective/ observation on my trips in Siren's thus far. I'll withhold my opinion of the changes to hurricane for awhile. Perhaps the player-aggro effect of hurricane will be reduced when opponents notice that it's not as devastating to them as it used to be and isn't as high a priority to remove from the battlefield as it used to be. Maybe somebody will find some new adaptations to the changes. Maybe just more time is needed to get an accurate observation of how much this truly affects us in actual application. Just a buncha maybes I still need to see first.

DarkCurrent

04-13-2006, 05:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I tested this as much as I could in PVP with my tanker (Ice/Stone), and in my experience, if you do not have decent range, this stuff just doesn't work as well as you say.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because hurricane was MEANT to counter you, meleer. Try using hurricane against a ranged opponent and see how you fair. I have a lvl 30 stormy that I've PvPd with. She could hold off brutes and stalkers no problem. But dominators and corruptors OWNED her. Ranged mezzes were especially her weakness.

I'm absolutely SICK of meleers getting their way in PvP time and time again. They are so arrogant that they think it's their right to walk right up to any squishie and destroy them without effort.

Hurricane was one of the only powers that a squishie could rely on for protection in PvP, and a major defense for storm defenders/controllers in PvE, and now this double nerf has gutted it. Thank you melee crybabies!!! You got what you wanted. Have fun in the PvP zones by yourselves.

Zapping

04-13-2006, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't be possible, no. Power effects for PVP and PVE are not decided on a "what zone you're in" basis; they're decided on a "what kind of enemy is attacking you" basis. And Repel ticks the same no matter if you're being attacked by players, NPCs, or even not attacked at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Robotech is right, there is no way to make hurricane work differently because when you turn it on it simply turns on, its not targeting a particular enemy. I don't know if they have the ability to make it check on the enemies side when they get hit by hurricane to see what effect it might have, based on past Dev posts I'm guessing not.

I can't comment on the actual changes yet, as I haven't had time to log on the past couple days. I'll have to give it a shot. Based on what I've read here I'm disappointed, but I think I'll be able to work with it. I first made Zapping in CoH beta and went through a long time of being considered a gimp because I was storm. I'll admit maybe its a bit of my own ego, but I like being one of the few stormers. Up until PvP came about and people realized stormers (mostly storm controllers) were the safest squishies in PvP the storm community was a small but strong network. We've lost some of that recently, who knows maybe this nerf will bring the community back together.

Oh and ignore KidQwik. He's been trolling for a storm nerf because in his own mind he's decided stormers are the reason regen was nerfed. About the only pleasure I've seen him take on these boards are calling for others to be nerfed as well. I find it quite sad, but at least he can get a few moments of happiness before moving on to sulking about his regens again and calling for someone else to be nerfed.

Anyways, hopefully I'll get to test this out a bit in the next day or two and see what I think.

FISTS

04-13-2006, 05:32 AM

Skipped a few pages of this thread.

All I know is that yesterday for the first time ever, 2 different stalkers got hits in on my storm troller in Sirens. Neither could kill me, but I don't like the fact that they could just jump into my hurricane and hit me before being repelled. The KB actually HELPED them get away from my pets.

I don't PvP much at all. But I do go to the zones for the badges. Imagine my surprise when I was fighting Blue Ink Men and a brute landed right next to me in my hurricane and stunned me with KB blow.

I think this change is BS. To everyone who thinks this is a good change because the end cost was lowered, I have a bridge in New York for sale. They have these little things called enhancements that you can use to reduce the endurance costs of all your powers, learn to use them.

If you take away some of my defense, then give me some mez protection or more HP. Otherwise all this did was make a squishy even more squishy.

PeteX

04-13-2006, 06:21 AM

Is there no way to add some type of repel suppression for players instead of gutting hurricane in PvE? Like give everyone an inherent repel resistance that increases the longer the player is being repelled in PvP? That way they can eventually get out of it if they are repelled for extended periods of time?

As much as I get irritated by hurricane in PvP, I would much rather leave it like it was than gut the power completely and destroy the whole feel of the Storm Summoning powerset.

My opinion is that you need to reverse this until you can find a good solution to the problem that doesn't screw over the power and powerset in PvE.

This was a very poor solution. :(

Umbra_NA

04-13-2006, 06:30 AM

I thought the developers stated PVP would not cause nerfing in PVE?

Overboard

04-13-2006, 06:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the nerf was inappropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Good to see you still defending the set, Stormbringer.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 06:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the nerf was inappropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Good to see you still defending the set, Stormbringer.

[/ QUOTE ]

dood, have you tried herdicaning recently?

it's a pain in the [censored] after ragdoll physics!

this just makes it worse.

it's as if the goal of the set is no longer controlled chaos...

it's just plain chaos.

BAH!

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 06:59 AM

Overboard

04-13-2006, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
dood, have you tried herdicaning recently?

it's a pain in the [censored] after ragdoll physics!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, I came back not too long ago. Finally got around to respec'ing my Stormer to deal with ED, the HO nerf, and the defense nerf. Ragdoll and the aggro cap nerf certainly messed with herdicanning. It was a ton harder than before, but I was enjoying the 'challenge' of trying to make it work while running some of the new TFs. Now it looks like positioning is completely dead, which was the best part about the Storm set, imo.

Time_Titan

04-13-2006, 07:10 AM

Patch Notes:

“Hurricane's Repel effect is now slightly less abusive in PvP situations. Hurricane will still interrupt Assassin Strikes, but it should no longer be possible to pin a player in a corner during Base Raids. The repel effect activates more slowly causing a reduction in the endurance cost over time to use the power.”

You know, this may not be a lie, but it is definitely a half-truth:

1. “Hurricane's Repel effect is now slightly less abusive in PvP situations.” (TRUE)

2 “Hurricane will still interrupt Assassin Strikes, but it should no longer be possible to pin a player in a corner during Base Raids.” (TRUE)

3. “The repel effect activates more slowly causing a reduction in the endurance cost over time to use the power.” (HALF-TRUTH) After reading sentence 1., one may assume that this is a PVP change made for PVP reasons. Why wouldn’t one make that assumption? Hurricane has been working as intended in PVE since Issue one.

I guess I made an a$$ of myself for believing that there would be a PVP version of Hurricane and an untouched PVE version. I mean that is the wildest assumption one could make reading the patch notes. :eek:

BrotherMick

04-13-2006, 07:14 AM

Herding is now very near impossible. The time between ticks now makes it so that when I try to herd up a group they often have a very good chance to run out of the hurricanes SoI in between ticks.

The tick time also makes it almost impossible to shield a teammate with the hurricane, even with the debuff melee can now run up close enough to hit someone (had it happen several times last night).

I think that this is a pretty poor solution to what the devs want to prevent. Hopefully they take a closer look at this nerf and reverse it, because in all honesty I'm not really seeing this power as being so attractive as it once was.

Overboard

04-13-2006, 07:14 AM

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 07:24 AM

While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.

I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.

Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.

>.>
<.<

That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.

And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.

I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.

Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.

>.>
<.<

That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.

And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

one thing a tank could do that a stormer never seemed to be able to do, however, was hold aggro. it was always better to have a tank do the herding. furthermore, all it ever took was one hit from the right mob and the stormer was mezzed. any delusions he/she had of being a tank quickly vanished when the word "stunned" appeared in the upper right hand corner of the screen. yes, hurricane was effectve, i'd hesitate to say it was abusive however.

another note: herdicaning != herding. two different things. herding = herding. herdicaning is the positioning of mobs via hurricane's repel and KB. herding was considered an exploit and changed with the aggro cap, herdicaning was not.

now, because hurricane's repel pulses less frequently, i'm concerned scattering mobs while attempting to debuff them will be MUCH MORE OF A CONCERN. when you approach a mob, for instance and your repel has just finished pusling it will be a full second before the mob MIGHT be affected by the next pulse. conversely, if you hit a mob just as the repel is pulsing the mob MIGHT be affected immediately. the problem is an old one for storm defenders (not so much for controllers because of the differences in the way they use hurricane relative to their primary holds/immobs)...the problem is one of unpredictability. a storm defender has NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER REPEL IS ABOUT TO PULSE. he/she therefor has no way of consistently applying its repel power and can therefor NOT POSITION MOBS as reliably as before.

and, while i agree the endurance reduction is handy, it is by no means needed for a well-built storm defender.

yes there is some good that comes with this change, but there's a lot more bad.

finally, i have a question to the community...

i've not seen anything about the rest of hurricane's debuffs. if anyone has seen a red name response as to the extent to which -to hit and -range are affected by the increase in time between pulses, i'd be very curious to read it. are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?

if anyone knows for sure, please let me know.

i haven't been able to do that much testing yet.

Overboard

04-13-2006, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the challenge is certainly increased, but at some point the time of execution becomes such that positioning is no longer practical. It may be -possible-, but it may not be practical, given your teams limited patience. To be honest, I have to play with it more, but as Stormbringer pointed out ... ragdoll had already added to the 'challenge' and this change may have put us over the edge.

On the 'upside', my Storm/Elec only needs one or two TF badges. Once those are completed, I won't really have a use for him. I'd consider rolling a Storm/Dark, but I'm not sure I can stomach playing another defender in this post I5 era.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 07:51 AM

If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.

Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.

SuperBrain

04-13-2006, 07:52 AM

s'ok OC, you can just be our h34l3r now with that leet buffed 02 boost.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 07:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 95% certain that the -Range and the -Accuracy are connected, and not to the pulse at all. Just brushing the enemies has decreased their accuracy, even when I don't move them at all. (tested last night on Crey)

Another reason I believe this is PvP related. The -Acc and -Range last 10 seconds after leaving the hurricane's effect, that implies that it's independant of the Repel effect. While the initial debuff MIGHT (heavy emphasis on might there) be related to the Repel effect, I don't believe it to be so, as I previously stated by my Crey testing in the paragraph above.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 07:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.

Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

ice/storm is good too.

the group immob in ice resists KB so you can stack it with tornado for mad damage.

and, yeah, the hurricane nerf doesn't affect controllers so much. tho this depends on playstyle.

Overboard

04-13-2006, 08:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, I've been meaning to level a controller. Haven't taken one past L12, as I always find myself missing the blasts (pre ED, of course). Corners made packing easier and more effective, but they weren't strictly necessary. Snowstorm plus Freezing Rain was enough slow and knockdown that you could pack a group in open field by running circles, moreso pre-ragdoll. Couldnt get the pack small enough to get the AoE from Lightning Storm, but it was tight enough for a blasters AoE or a spiners Spine Burst.

My apologies if my posts sound 'whiney', I'm just disappointed this change affected PvE. I had hoped, perhaps foolishly, that it wouldnt.

Zapping

04-13-2006, 08:03 AM

Ok I snuck on for a little bit to test this out (I knew there was a reason I installed on my work machine!). I used Zapping (level 50 storm/elec) and went to PI by portal corp where there were a bunch of level 50 mobs.

First group I took on were 3 lvl 50 malta, 1 sapper and 2 other I don't remember what. I took out the sapper, 1 enemy ran, so I cornered the other and took him out, waited for the third to return and took him out. Easy fight, not a good test as they split up early.

Next fight was a solo Hercules Titan, conned yellow. Pushed him into a corner and took him out pretty easy. Basically hurricane is still pretty easy to use on single targets.

Next I went through a few groups of possessed scientists. Each group had three scientists, all conned white. This is where I really noticed my problems herdicaning. Even with only 3 enemies, they could easily split up and move around between pulses. Knockback was the only thing that helped as they couldn't run when they were on the ground, but then again the ragdoll physics also makes it harder to push them. These were still easy fights, but it showed me that herding larger groups of higher level stuff is definitely going to cause issues. Not impossible, but definitely issues.

My final fight before I had to log to actually do some work (ok really to post this here) was two orange death mages. Now part of my problem is there weren't any good corners near where I found them, but in the past that just meant pushing them to where there were. Much harder here. Basically I had to focus on locking one down as much as possible while hoping the other didn't get me. Lightning storm, voltic sentinel and tornado were vital in keeping them off me as they could stun me since I couldn't keep them locked in a corner. Mid-fight my ever trusty tornado aggroed a group of carnies as well. Turned out to be a good test. Took out the strongmen quick since they were always good versus hurricane, but was still able to ignore the fencers, etc while finishing off the mage.

So I guess my final impression based on a fairly short session of testing on small weak groups. Hurricane is no where near the power it once was. The debuff is still good, but the repel was an important part of the defense, and its no where near as reliable as it was.

That being said, I'm sure I'll learn to adapt. I hope they'll look at the feedback and maybe buff the pulse time a bit - maybe meet part way between the old and the new. But I'm not going to quit over this, nor do I hope to see the defender boards turn into the "woe is me" boards that other class boards have turned into.

After all I'm a stormer, best class in the game. There's a reason there aren't any stormers in the CoH comic. They'd debuff Manticore's ability to shoot them and they'd make Statesman look weak.

Overboard

04-13-2006, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
s'ok OC, you can just be our h34l3r now with that leet buffed 02 boost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, no need to be insulting. :p

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 08:22 AM

You didn't sound whiney at all. Other people in this thread have sounded MUCH more whiney then you.

But on topic... Kinda. While Corners were the primary use of Hurricane to keep things nice and packed, and yes, Snowstorm + Freezing Rain is how I would do it against large open spaces (Atta cave, Fir Bolg, etc) I always considered that method inferior because of the Rag Doll physics coupled with knockback in general (be it mine or someone elses).

I personally had hoped that it would be a PvP only change as well (that's how it sounded in the Patch Notes to me at first blush), but I can't argue that it wasn't unwarrented to adjust the PvE as well.

As for rolling a Controller... if you miss the blasts, look into Gravity. Propel, while a really long animation, is amazing good damage with Containment. Crush is a very decent DoT as well. Slot those two up as if they were blasts, and you should do just dandy for your damage fix. While not as damaging (imo) as a Defender, and certainly without the variety, it can make the transition much easier to handle.

Tal_N

04-13-2006, 08:37 AM

I seriously think the devs should elaborate a little more on why it was nerf'd. From what I can see it appears that Hurricane was infact operating outside of what it was intended to do and was simply highlighted by PvP. Assuming it was altered for PvE due to PvP issues isn't a fair assumption since the devs are not in the habit of lying and said this wouldn't happen if they could help it.

As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose. You have to admit, the -range, knockback and -acc was secondary to the repel itself. So in sense, the debuff aspect was taking a back seat to the control aspect.

That simply seems wrong for a debuff powerset. I don't think the power has been made less valuable at all, its simply changed purpose. I have two stormies and one is going to benefit alot from this change, it used to be annoying being unable to use Ice Slick with Hurricane as it would instantly force them off of the ice. Now its possible to benefit from the -acc debuff and keep them on the ice for longer as well.

Overboard

04-13-2006, 08:41 AM

/agreed on your Hurricane points, and thanks for the Grav idea. Does sound like a reasonable approximation of early defender blasts.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 08:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.

I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 08:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
/agreed on your Hurricane points, and thanks for the Grav idea. Does sound like a reasonable approximation of early defender blasts.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you ever want to chuck ideas at me for a Controller, shoot me a PM, and I'll be glad to put my brain power to work on it with you. Finding synergy between powersets is one thing I won't grow tired of.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.

I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.

[/ QUOTE ]

problem is that the dev rationale for the repel change was to keep stormers from pinning opponants in corners during base raids.

seems to imply it was a pvp change.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 08:49 AM

Having PvP as one rational for a change, doesn't make it the sole reason. Or so I would hope to believe. That may have started the line of thought that there was a problem, and it feels like that's what started it, but again, that doesn't make it the only factor.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 08:50 AM

sure but, as of right now, it's the only factor the devs have mentioned.

i'd be curious to hear more from them on this matter.

Newyorican

04-13-2006, 09:07 AM

Good thing I got my Ice/Storm to L50 last nite. I had already noticed that blocking a door or corridor was not working very well. Mobs would run right past me, through the hurricane, to the squishies in the rear ranks and lay into the healers and blasters like I wasnt there. Several players noted that I could no longer effectively block doorways/corridors.

Good thing Ice/Storm has an abundance of controls and slows because I sure had to change tactics to protect the squishies yesterday.

Unfortunately that prevented me from helping the melee front ranks by locking down mobs they managed to aggro...

All in all, the spawns took longer to dispatch than before the latest change.

Que bono?

:(

Khenti

04-13-2006, 09:39 AM

I’ve yet to actually have the opportunity to take my Hurricane out for a test spin, but I have to say, the observations of this change thus far are somewhat worrisome.

I didn’t often utilize my Hurricane as a debuff. That was a handy aspect, certainly, but it was the repel that made it a useful tool for my Controller. I very much enjoyed shoving a group of villains into a corner to unleash Tornado upon them without scattering them to the four winds. There were always enemies that slipped away, so it was hardly perfect, but now it sounds as if it’s usefulness as a control tool has been lessened significantly.

I’m not often one to rant about the changes of PvP moving into PvE, but it seems fairly obvious that the hugely unpopular Storm set had a single power that made some Controllers (yes, Controllers) very popular and more difficult to destroy utterly in the blink of an eye than their cousins in PvP. I don’t think I ever heard anyone make mention of how overpowered Hurricane was in PvE or how unbalancing it made the game. It’s very disappointing to see a certain brand of complaints that were meant to be discouraged by the party line of “PvP isn’t balanced for one on one” successfully sway the Devs.

In truth, this doesn’t affect my Controller’s prowess all that greatly. It’s for the Defenders that I feel. While I still have a myriad of tools to keep players and mobs alike off my back during a fight, those with Storm primary have lost one of the only abilities any Defender had to help protect them.

----------------------
Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti – Lvl 15 Warshade
AkenAmenti – Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm – Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial – Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor

Time_Titan

04-13-2006, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]

problem is that the dev rationale for the repel change was to keep stormers from pinning opponants in corners during base raids.

seems to imply it was a pvp change.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if we follow the Dev's rationale a bit further, I'm afraid we may see powers like force bubble and telekinesis whacked. :(

HaloInc

04-13-2006, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Hurricane's Repel effect is now slightly less abusive in PvP situations. Hurricane will still interrupt Asssassin Strikes, but it should no longer be possible to pin a player in a corner during Base Raids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why were the PvE changes excluded from the patch notes. If not excluded at least misleading. The patch note should reflect the tick time was reduced, and to compensate the cost was reduced.

This reminds me of the change to Enervating Field in issue 5 that the devs would not admit to for about a month and a half (estimated) discovered first week on test, dev's admitted to the change about 3 weeks after this was live.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Robotech is right, there is no way to make hurricane work differently because when you turn it on it simply turns on, its not targeting a particular enemy. I don't know if they have the ability to make it check on the enemies side when they get hit by hurricane to see what effect it might have, based on past Dev posts I'm guessing not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Controllers don't target a particular enemy, but Containment does x3 damage in PvP zones instead of the PvE x2. Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

The way I see it, the uncertainty caused by a Storm Summoner has just increased, no matter how skilled they might be with the set and finely-tuned positioning. This adjustment combined with the overall To Hit Debuff enhancement reclassification from Schedule A to Schedule B has borked both of the main functions of this power unfairly. The savings in endurance was unplanned and pretty much pointless, as Hurricane eats less energy than most any toggle save for Combat Jumping. The reasons given for both changes were ill-considered and misleading. False pretenses should not be used as patch notes.

Move the ticks to half a second and I'm sure all the PvPers whining about Hurricane will still be able to do their damage and avoid being pinned. Please do something about this. PvE is still the core of this game.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hurricane was the new Instand Healing. A power that made you untouchable

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats hilarious. As someone who has used ih when it was a toggle and hurricane before yesterday...its not even close. Blasters can three-hit me. Em stalkers stun me, then AS me. Scrappers or tanks with fa hit through it plenty. Scrappers with ih also have mez protection, something with most stormies dont have (iw is around 60% of the time for those with it, so its not close to perma either), so a simple hold drops hurricane easy. Ih scrappers are infintely harder to kill.

Save the ridiculous claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every AT has a role and what the Devs have tried to do is homogenize those roles so that everyone has some way to beat each other in PvP. In PvP, every AT is supposed to have SOME sort of chance to defeat every other AT. That's why there were so many nerfs on Scrappers. I've always complained about nerfs that were done for PvP that effected the PvE game. "Balance Vision" has a long way to be balanced.

Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some powers are impossible to change for PvP and still stay the same for PvE. Most instances of this are powers that dirrectly affect a player. Even more so, are the ones that are Self Affecting.

Is it possible to have changed PvP Hurricane without affecting PvE? We don't know, only the Devs do. To assume you know is pretty much making something up and claiming it's real. Even if right, that doesn't mean you knew, it means you guessed.

Now let's assume that it WAS possible to change how Hurricane worked in PvP without affecting PvE. If that was possible, and they STILL changed it so it affected PvE, then odds are, they wanted it that way. We can assume this based on the idea that in the past, it has been stated by Red Names that they if they can avoid a PvP nerf that didn't require PvE adjustment by only adjusting PvP, they would do so.

Primal

04-13-2006, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sure but, as of right now, it's the only factor the devs have mentioned.

i'd be curious to hear more from them on this matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Truly. When the devs don't say anything, that leaves us to infer things. Inferring is BAD.

Just look at this thread as proof. Hell, look at any thread about a nerf (real or perceived). All kinds of folks come out of the woodwork, some to smugly say that the power was "always overpowered and bugged" and that it got what it deserved, which is pure trolling crap most of the time. Others will look for OTHER reasons for the nerf, and PvP is a friggin' enormous target, since I daresay quite a few of the players have seen its effects on other games.

Basically, when the devs say ONLY that Hurricane was changed for PvP reasons, and don't give any other (PvE-related) reasons...what else are we to think? Most of us are wary of PvP and see it as a threat to PvE. I know damn well I do, and I admit it. After all, such a change as this justifies that wariness.

If Hurricane was changed because of PvP, AND because it was overpowered in PvE, then we really deserve to be told such by an official source. Some jackhole spouting their smug opinions about what was "always overpowered" and using infantile buzzwords like "god mode" and "tank mage" and "herding" is not a reputable source. Likewise, neither are the people like me, who saw no issues at all. None of those two are devs.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for sheer ignorance.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some jackhole spouting their smug opinions about what was "always overpowered" and using infantile buzzwords like "god mode" and "tank mage" and "herding" is not a reputable source.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is some jackhole spouting their bitter opinions using infantile works like "woodwork" and "trolls" and "smug opinions".

I'm not saying you can't say those things. I'm not saying that i think you're wrong. I'm certainly not saying that you have to be nice or even consider opposing points of view.

What I am saying with that is that you're just a reputable as anyone else, and people will always infer and believe and say what they want. Even if they gave clear cut reasons why something was changed, there will be someone, somewhere, coming out to say ANYTHING to contradict it, or claim it's a lie.

Being jaded and bitter is no excuse for insulting other people and degrading to name calling.

Just incase this gets someone mad and calling me hypocritical, I was simply using the above as an example. The first sentence of this post is by no means a measure of what I think or feel. I simply want to encourage people to keep an open mind and remind them that just because someone on the forum chooses to believe there were more reasons for a change to the game then what is officially told, doesn't make them right. Regardless of if they say they agree or not.

Remember people. Don't post angry if you can help it. It doesn't do you or anyone else good. It simply encourages flame wars, and that's usually the last thing anyone needs.

Zapping

04-13-2006, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some jackhole spouting their smug opinions about what was "always overpowered" and using infantile buzzwords like "god mode" and "tank mage" and "herding" is not a reputable source.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is some jackhole spouting their bitter opinions using infantile works like "woodwork" and "trolls" and "smug opinions".

I'm not saying you can't say those things. I'm not saying that i think you're wrong. I'm certainly not saying that you have to be nice or even consider opposing points of view.

What I am saying with that is that you're just a reputable as anyone else, and people will always infer and believe and say what they want. Even if they gave clear cut reasons why something was changed, there will be someone, somewhere, coming out to say ANYTHING to contradict it, or claim it's a lie.

Being jaded and bitter is no excuse for insulting other people and degrading to name calling.

Just incase this gets someone mad and calling me hypocritical, I was simply using the above as an example. The first sentence of this post is by no means a measure of what I think or feel. I simply want to encourage people to keep an open mind and remind them that just because someone on the forum chooses to believe there were more reasons for a change to the game then what is officially told, doesn't make them right. Regardless of if they say they agree or not.

Remember people. Don't post angry if you can help it. It doesn't do you or anyone else good.

[/ QUOTE ]

not to be contentious here, but what the heck are we debating?

the devs simply said they nerfed hurricane to prevent the PvP tactic of pinning an opponant in the corner.

they have not said anything else about this.

any argument as to what other motives they had is, at this point, pure conjecture. and, to a large extent, pointless.

let's hear more from the devs on this, i think.

PeteX

04-13-2006, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now let's assume that it WAS possible to change how Hurricane worked in PvP without affecting PvE. If that was possible, and they STILL changed it so it affected PvE, then odds are, they wanted it that way. We can assume this based on the idea that in the past, it has been stated by Red Names that they if they can avoid a PvP nerf that didn't require PvE adjustment by only adjusting PvP, they would do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that they took the quickest path to solving the problem rather than spending the time and resources searching for a 'better' solution.

Hopefully this is going to be one of those cases where they roll it back to the drawing board to actually find a good solution instead of simply dinking with some numbers for a quick and dirty fix, then leaving it to rot and fester.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 12:50 PM

IMO, there really isn't much, if anything, to debate about the issue.

It was done, people should discuss how it affects them, and if enough problems / issues can be found, it should be raised with the Developers.

What I see (usually) instead is people getting offensive or defensive about the change, or even the people who find they like the change, which usually ends in a spiral down into a flame war.

As for hearing more from the Devs, I like and don't like the idea at the same time. I like to hear what they have to say, but I respect that they have to keep somethings to themselves for the business to exist. As much as I like and love getting information out of them, even something as small as a reason, we aren't required to know this.

There is nothing we can do with the information besides go "okay..." and there's nothing we can alter or change with the game. Giving us information might be good for us mentally, but it's similar to giving us a rock. Sure, we have it now, but there's not a lot that can be done with said rock.

You know?

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 12:55 PM

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for sheer ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll be ok. Nerfs suck, yes. Sometimes though they're necessary to make the playing field a little more fair. I should know the suckage pretty well with my Regen. It's ok if u want to cry. I know I did too when I had MORE THAN ONE of my bread and butter powers nerfed issue after issue.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:00 PM

i think, if the devs are honest and up-front with us about the reasons they do things they can go farther toward assuaging our fears that they have our best interests in mind.

personally i believe they do.

in situations like this, however, i wonder if their perceived ad hoc responses to serious player inquiries might be doing more harm than good.

i'm not sure, for instance, all the speculating about developers' true intentions is healthy.

furthermore i'd like to help the devs make sure they got the right fix for the right problem. as a paying and playing customer, i think i'm due my say in the product i'm purchashing. on some level i want to get what i've payed for. and, because of the time i have invested in this venture, i can be pretty picky.

so i, for one, would like to hear more.

if the devs were solely concerned about pvp performance of a power, i'm curious to explore that. was the power genuinely overpowered or was it a case of player perception? was the power nerfed because of a few vocal protests or were there better reasons?

if the power was nerfed for pvp reasons and pvp reasons alone, i'm deeply concerned as to why it's affecting the pve game at all.

if the devs had other reasons for nerfing the power in pve, i'd be curious to hear them as well. as far as i could tell the power was far from exploitative in the pve game. in many pve experiences, storm defenders were consdiered second-tier defenders and (to some extent) unable to peform the roles of their AT to certain teams' satisfaction.

so i guess it would help to hear more. at the very least, it would help us clarify the issues of concern to the devs and see if they coincide with our own (however diverse those may be).

Primal

04-13-2006, 01:02 PM

Super_Villain, I wasn't actually talking about you, you know.

What I was SAYING, is that I for one would like some actual communication from the devs. We're not entitled to it, it'd just be nice. The alternative to actually knowing the truth, is wild speculation. That's what I was saying.

And btw, I meant exactly what I said about stuff like "god-mode" and "tank-mage" and whatever else people like to say whenever they either a) never liked a power, b) never USED a power to begin with, or (to the point here) c) can't be bothered to figure out a way around it in PvP. Anytime I see people saying that when it's entirely unwarranted, I consider them a troll or an idiot and ignore them. Yeah, Hurricane is god mode. Sure it is. A Stormy never dies in PvP or PvE when they have that.

Don't take things personally.

Besides, I've been wanting to use the word "jackhole" all day.

EDIT: And damnit, just so it's clear, I'm not the slightest whit concerned with PvP. Change whatever you want, and debate that amongst yourselves. When it starts affecting my PvE game is when I have an issue. Geez.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for sheer ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll be ok. Nerfs suck, yes. Sometimes though they're necessary to make the playing field a little more fair. I should know the suckage pretty well with my Regen. It's ok if u want to cry. I know I did too when I had MORE THAN ONE of my bread and butter powers nerfed issue after issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, maybe i'll cry to the devs.

see if i can get 'em to nerf the regen set.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 01:13 PM

Phew... a few things to touch on, and I'll do this the best as I can, but keep in mind I'm not great at this...

[ QUOTE ]
as a paying and playing customer, i think i'm due my say in the product i'm purchashing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right here is an issue that needs to be thought of differently. Yes, you do pay. So do quite a few other people. For the most part, each just as picky as the next, and all with different ideas about how something was implimented, and how it could have been done better. Some are out for "personal gain", others are out for "greater good". It's impossible to tell one from the other though.

When dealing with such a large market, it is, for the most part, impossible to actually get the large market do anything as a unified thought, because each is a "special little snow flake" (from my days in retail, heh). There are two several ways to do this, and again, each person thinks they know the best way. The Developemental team are, in the end, the only people who get a say in the matter, and do their best to anticipate the market. What that means for the market, is that it doesn't get as much say as it wants, and never will. Even if they did allow the market to discuss the changes as much and as openly as possible, it would still never be enough, because the market can never agree with itself on what needed to be done, so the discussion will never end.

[ QUOTE ]
as far as i could tell the power was far from exploitative in the pve game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has been, in my experience, that the power is relatively powerful. I would probably compare it to an unbuffed tank. This is just my personal observations and uses of it. Being able to tank for purple nemesis and clump them where I want (including sniper spawns) shows me that it was more then just effective.

[ QUOTE ]
at the very least, it would help us clarify the issues of concern to the devs and see if they coincide with our own (however diverse those may be).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one reason that I would like to hear more as well from the Devs. While I can understand that it would put many people's minds to rest on the subject, it would only fan the flames, so to speak, on threads like this. There would be no end to the conversations, except by allowing time to pass and people to vent.

I personally am of the train of thought that hearing more won't help or hurt any more or less then saying as much as they are now. But, saying more can always lead to problems, such as accidentaly leaking information, saying the wrong thing, or other issues the Red Names don't currently deal with as often as they could. Mostly because most things the Devs say don't go through a PR rep first.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't take things personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but I'm not ^.^ and I do realize it wasn't aimed at me, I simply don't care for such... insulting threads. They lead to flame wars and little else. Keeping a level head when posting is the best possible.

Another thing, as it was changed in PvE as well as PvP, I assume one of three things (though there are more options):

They had no choise, and it had to affect PvE

-or-

They determined that it was needed for PvE

-or-

They decieded it wasn't that large of an affect on PvE.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with KidQuick. Any Tanker who's relying on anything but their level 38 power is, in fact, relying on three or four powers minumum to survive. In fact, Invulnerable Tankers are likely to use both Unstoppable and their toggles.

In contrast, all a Hurricane user needed to completely reshape the battlefield was a travel power and Hurricane. At present, I can't think of any other power that had this affect on team PvP play. The arrival of a stormie on the battlefield immediately shaped the hero's tactics and formation, and typically shifted favor to the hero side.

Were stormies invincible? No. Did they make their team invincible? No. Did they provide a disproportionate advantage? In my opinion, they did.

Yes, Tankers have shields, and perhaps one shield matters more than others. And I'll agree that the same is, indeed, true of may other ATs and characters. But I have never, ever seen the arrival of any single other powerset shape the battlefield the way Hurricane has.

Were the changes made what was neeeded? I truly am not qualified to say. Should the changes have spilled into PvE? I wish they didn't. But I do feel very confident that something needed to be done to the power's performance in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

to be effective in a battle, a hurricane user needs to do the following...

1) have hurricane
2) have a travel power...preferable 2. i recommend superjump and superspeed
3) have the 2 prereqs for the travel power
4) have some sort of mez protection (from a teammate or from bfs)

now, what happens is the storm guy takes these 5 powers and pops a couple breakfress then he/she runs around and continually debuffs his oppontants and makes things easier for his team.

however, the opposing team is by no means helpless in this situation. there are several things they can do to nullify the storm guy or gal...

1) avoid him/her - the storm can only debuff you if it hits you. try moving away from them on the axis of your choice
2) immobilize him/her - i recommend web grenades...these are available everywhere and can break through bfs
3) hold him/her - ranged holds are best, unless you're a scrapper, tank, stalker or brute - then melee will do. controllers usually do a nice job of nullifying a pesky stormer. although dominators work just as well. if you're squishy you'll want some range. if you're not, just melee the storm into a coma.
4) kill him/her - to do this use a blaster, corrupter, stalker, scrapper, or controller works best. the storm guy or gal has no inherent self heal. they'll go down like a wet sack of crap.
5) get powers with to-hit buffs...they eat right through storms. don't believe me? ask your spines scrapper/stalker friends. they know.
6) just stand there and take it. no really. the storm guy's not gonna kill ya by him/herself. not anytime soon. thing is, the storm guys and gals need a team too (just like you). they need teams to kill you, to keep them healed, to give them mez protection and unsurpressed movement. without buffs the storm is one of the squishiest toons out there.

don't believe me?

try playing one.

PeteX

04-13-2006, 01:23 PM

My suggestion to you, Super_Villain, is to allow us to post our concerns how we see fit. When NCSoft starts paying you to moderate their forums, then you can come on here and dictate what the community can and cannot post.

However, for now, all you are doing is derailing this thread with an off-topic discussion about how we should be posting on this subject. You know, doing precisely what you are lecturing about?

If you wish to post your view on hurricane several more times, feel free. Posting off-topic criticisms of all the other posters in this thread is bordering on trolling.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 01:30 PM

Fortunately, I do want you to post your concerns how you see fit. I haven't tried to dictate how anyone posts (though I do encourage "niceness" in posts, as it causes other people respond better to a post). Though when you get paid to moderate the forums as well, you may come back and tell me how to post, and get paid for doing it, as opposed to free, as you are now.

If you find a post of mine to be Trollish, off topic, or wrong, I encourage you to do everything in your power to let the moderators know.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would Hurricane be different? Lots of powers differ between PvE and PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some powers are impossible to change for PvP and still stay the same for PvE. Most instances of this are powers that dirrectly affect a player. Even more so, are the ones that are Self Affecting.

Is it possible to have changed PvP Hurricane without affecting PvE? We don't know, only the Devs do. To assume you know is pretty much making something up and claiming it's real. Even if right, that doesn't mean you knew, it means you guessed.

Now let's assume that it WAS possible to change how Hurricane worked in PvP without affecting PvE. If that was possible, and they STILL changed it so it affected PvE, then odds are, they wanted it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can safely say that I am not the one making things up. What was the point in even implying that? The statements as to why the various changes were made were ridiculously misleading. That's making something up. If PvE changes were desired in these actions, it's quite simple to say so in the initial patch notes. If my commentary is erroneous based off of incomplete information, the information needs to be complete.

[ QUOTE ]
We can assume this based on the idea that in the past, it has been stated by Red Names that they if they can avoid a PvP nerf that didn't require PvE adjustment by only adjusting PvP, they would do so.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I'll avoid assumptions of this nature, thanks to the other misleading information.

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing we can do with the information besides go "okay..." and there's nothing we can alter or change with the game. Giving us information might be good for us mentally, but it's similar to giving us a rock. Sure, we have it now, but there's not a lot that can be done with said rock.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I don't usually settle for blind acceptance of anything.

Primal

04-13-2006, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately, I do want you to post your concerns how you see fit. I haven't tried to dictate how anyone posts (though I do encourage "niceness" in posts, as it causes other people respond better to a post). Though when you get paid to moderate the forums as well, you may come back and tell me how to post, and get paid for doing it, as opposed to free, as you are now.

If you find a post of mine to be Trollish, off topic, or wrong, I encourage you to do everything in your power to let the moderators know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, now, let's remember the REAL badguys around here.

Those dirty PvPers are the problem.

*ducks and runs* ;)

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 01:39 PM

Hey, those are all my opinions on that. While they did only specify PvP as the reason for the change, I base those opinions off of what they have done and said in the past, nothing more.

When I say "to assume you know", I didn't mean to imply you specifically, but that neither you or I have any more information on the subject then the other (i might have missed a Red Name post or two though...) and that one can only assume motives beyond what we're told. To say that they could, but didn't, is to assume you know more. I ment nothing more then that.

I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

EDIT to Primal: And those dirty PvPers are probably playing mind games... want to divide and conquer us! Or something.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for sheer ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll be ok. Nerfs suck, yes. Sometimes though they're necessary to make the playing field a little more fair. I should know the suckage pretty well with my Regen. It's ok if u want to cry. I know I did too when I had MORE THAN ONE of my bread and butter powers nerfed issue after issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, maybe i'll cry to the devs.

see if i can get 'em to nerf the regen set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where have you been? They've have nerfed regen so many times over and over from like Issue 3-5. The next nerf they could possibly do would turn yet another one of my powers into a click. Then I could respec and have the entire "Click To Heal Collection!" with Instant Healing, Reconstruction, Dull Pain, and then finally Integration. I think anyone on the forums knows how the axe has fallen on Regen. We're talking one of your powers. I'm talking 3 of my powers that were completely altered by turning into a click, an 8 minute recharge with 3 minute up time, adding heals to a non heal power, etc. I'm already an Selfempathy healer with all the click heals. :)

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:46 PM

i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense.

to claim a hurricane was overpowered in a certain aspect of pvp (base raids of all things) as grounds for a pvp and pve nerf doesn't completely add up.

something's missing here.

if nothing else a simple explanation that, given the coding of the power, it had to be the same in pvp and in pve.

that would be enough.

but we didn't get that.

we got...nothing.

it's almost as if the devs were addressing the wrong question or that something got lost in translation.

i dunno, it's just bizarre.

until the devs answer the right questions here, their treatment of the issue appears sloppy and ill-informed.

as a customer with so many hours invested in this project, i'm deeply concerned.

and come on...was hurricane so powerful to begin with that it outshone powers like force bubble, detention field, TK, and sonic cage..?

i know opinions are going to vary on this, but i really don't think so.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the problem, as i see it as well. Something, somewhere, was lost in some translation. I can see some intern looking at a piece of paper marked "Memo: Hurricane" and wondering what it's about, but places it in the shredder. Atleast, that's the amusing thought that enters my mind...

A simple explanation of it, especially the "why did it affect PvE too" would be good. Of all the information they could give out, that would be what I think is the best bit.

But because there are so many people each asking for different information, which bit of info do you give? And you know the moment they give out a drop, people will ask for more. It happens everytime. "Well that's great _Castle_, but why did XYZ happen in the first place?"

I'm not trying to defend the (imo) crappy info they have given us already, just trying to defend the idea that they have the draw the info line somewhere. I just think they drew it too soon, heh.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've wondered this very thing since it came out. ;)

I do recognize that my dilemma is not universal. Nor should PvP be so.

Edit: Super_Villain
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

PeteX

04-13-2006, 02:01 PM

I don't think they have drawn any line as of yet. That is why some of us are posting here.

It often indicates that they are reevaluating the change if they do not post any blurb at all (particularly since States asked Castle to be pseudo-rep for a while), or that perhaps Castle is testing in PvE to see what he thinks.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've wondered this very thing since it came out. ;)

I do recognize that my dilemma is not universal. Nor should PvP be so.

Edit: Supervillain
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.

[/ QUOTE ]

The devs "reasonings" are usually a buncha crap in my opinion. I saw they mentioned something about "stamina" in regards to nerfing Hurricane. They also said that by turning Instant Healing into a click it would help with a Regen's endurance issues... They HAD to be kidding. Regen can not only get Stamina, but Quick Recovery!!! I NEVER had an endurance problem! So... The devs have never really do a good, honest, non-foot-in the mouth, explanation about nerfs. It's like when people try to sell you a bridge or talk about WMDs. :-b

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think they have drawn any line as of yet. That is why some of us are posting here.

It often indicates that they are reevaluating the change if they do not post any blurb at all (particularly since States asked Castle to be pseudo-rep for a while), or that perhaps Castle is testing in PvE to see what he thinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, now that is entirely possible! I hadn't thought of that myself, and I tend to see changes that are pushed through as "done" unless specified. But if left unspecified, it could mean they are contemplating a change or alteration, but haven't been able to do so yet, even though the orriginal change has to go through do to the planned internal timeline.

Good call on that one!

As for the fact that no line has been drawn yet and that's the reason for the posts... Possible. Something else I hadn't thought of, for similar reasons to those listed above. I guess this is a "wait and see" moment now, instead of a "adjust" moment.

JusticeZero

04-13-2006, 02:05 PM

Yeah.. I am a bit irritated that once again, one of the less popular and widely considered least desirable Defender sets got nerfed. Shades of DA, SR, IA here.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The devs "reasonings" are usually a buncha crap in my opinion. I saw they mentioned something about "stamina" in regards to nerfing Hurricane. They also said that by turning Instant Healing into a click it would help with a Regen's endurance issues... They HAD to be kidding. Regen can not only get Stamina, but Quick Recovery!!! I NEVER had an endurance problem! So... The devs have never really do a good, honest, non-foot-in the mouth, explanation about nerfs. It's like when people try to sell you a bridge or talk about WMDs. :-b

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, the unintended 'endurance save' struck me as particularily rhubarb-rubbing, given Hurricane's status as one of the lowest cost toggles a Stormie could run. Thanks for the accident! :D

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 02:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Super_Villain
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, well that clears it up in my head then! Phew, I thought I was losing touch with my thoughts and words there! Like I was thinking one thing, but my hands were going off and doing their own thing!

I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.

...

Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them :p) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 02:08 PM

i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

JusticeZero

04-13-2006, 02:12 PM

Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

[/ QUOTE ]

I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies. :)

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.

...

Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them :p) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is where we differ somewhat in our opinions. I have no real love for intentions in game design. I rather doubt the developers of any game have it out for anyone. Conversely, it's said the road to hell is paved in good ones. What I care about are informed decisions and informative communication from the developers. I simply don't think the double whammy of Hurricane/To Hit Debuff changes, their far-reaching effects on both PvP and PvE and what we were told of them qualify as either.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 02:19 PM

Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).

The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".

[/ QUOTE ]

:)

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

[/ QUOTE ]

I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 02:26 PM

Stormbringer,

You just spent a fair amount of time saying not much.

I mentioned you need a travel power. That implies clearly that you need the prerequisites. Please don't tell me you need two. I've never once faced a storm user with two, and they all did fine. Super Jump was normally more than sufficient.

Mez protection is far from required for a Stormie to be effective. I know. Do you know why? Because all of my PvP experience is with characters that have holds, and I made it my mission to disable the Hurricane casters I saw.

Remember that my post was about team tactics. Only very poor teams leave the storm character alone while someone like a Dominator picks on them. Yes, I usually disrupted the stormie. Yes, it had meaning or I wouldn't have kept it up. But it was virtually always suicide for me. It involved sacrificing myself over and over just to nullify that one character for 20 or so seconds.

Any hero team smarter than a sack of rocks protected the Storm defender. Anyone who could had mez protection cast on them. Anyone who could immediately healed them. Anyone who could immediately tried to kill anyone who threatend the Storm Defender/Controller.

What other character in PvP warrents that kind of attention? What other powerset in play is a huge red flag of "defeat that character or we are screwed?" Can you name one that even comes close to the urgency of Hurricane?

Most Storm characters are far from helpless. Controllers have a wide array of counter mezzes to use on you. Some of the Defender blast sets are very effective against other Squishies in PvP - I can only wish I got the full Psionic Blast set that Defenders do on my Dominator.

Again, let me restate what I said in my post. Hurricane was not perfect. Hurricane users were not invincible. However, the singular effect of that power on the battlefield overshadowed everything else. The arrival of no other hero powerset could change the course of events to the degree that Hurricane could. This is why it was changed.

If you want to see a Hurricane player who could kill you dead as a Squishie, I recommend you look up Blunt on the Justice server. His character was Storm/Psi. And, in fact, he could kill Dominators and Corruptors with tremendous facility. Psi Blast contains some excellent, fast activating blasts that include such wonderful side effects as sleep, disorient and immobilization. Combining this with the knockback effect of Hurricane, the slow and -fly effects of Snowstorm, and Hurricane's lingering toHit debuff, Blunt could catch other squishies, disable them, prevent them from getting up, and kill them at leasure.

So understand that appealing to my notion that somehow Hurricane users are helpless targets simply isn't going to carry much weight with me. Do I think they were godly? Certainly not. But they weren't some walking target, just waiting to die.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 02:31 PM

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Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).

The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.

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I'm not the biggest cruncher myself, but I listen to folks who are. I7 defense-scaling changes help out two things primarily: Defense and Accuracy buffs. The effect they have on To Hit buffs (and debuffs), based off of the differences between Accuracy and To Hit, are minimal. There are many threads on this topic. I do not say whether or not the To Hit debuffs of Defenders were overpowering and thus in need of rescheduling. I say that the double whammy hurt Storm Summoning more than most and should be addressed.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 02:31 PM

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 02:32 PM

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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".

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:)

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Please understand that you have my full and complete understanding about the annoyance of PvP-driven changes affecting PvE.

However, I'm a little surprised that anyone is taken off guard by this. There have not been any PvP-only power changes in quite some time.

Pwning_Ghost

04-13-2006, 02:33 PM

awesome news i guess the stormies wont be leveling up as fast now.

j/k sorry for your losses, you know they only nerf stuff when people abuse it. blame your fellow controllers. that is all.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 02:36 PM

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I do not say whether or not the To Hit debuffs of Defenders were overpowering and thus in need of rescheduling. I say that the double whammy hurt Storm Summoning more than most and should be addressed.

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That's where I'm personally wishy-washy about right now. I don't know if the hit to Hurricane and the reschedualing of ToHit Debuffs is too strong or not. I've been testing this myself a bit, and so far the ToHit change doesn't seem to be that major (of course, I am running DOs, so I'm not sure... ignore that they're yellow too. It's probably not the best test, to be sure) while the change to hurricane doesn't seem that bad in casual play. I'll have to try some of the more serious stuff I used to do, but for now, it looks to have been adjusted to be a Debuff power, instead of mob placement, almost completely rewriting what people have been using it for.

Like i said, I'm still wishy-washy on it, and i can easily lean to the "it's too much" just as I can to the "it looks okay".

FISTS

04-13-2006, 02:37 PM

You guys can come up with all the PvP rationale you want, but it's still BS. My stormers main defense was taken away and what did he get in return? It has been stated many times that the end redux is marginal at best. I have an end redux enhancement in most powers because I built all my toons with ED before ED was mandated. So what did my toon get in return for his weakened defense?

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Numerically, the toHit change should have been a 19% drop in effectiveness. What that means vs. PvE foes sadly is variable with both foe rank and level. However, against the same foes, before and after, it simply means that, whatever Hurricane did to a foe's toHit, it now only does 81% as much.

I think that the change on the repel effect may actually make the toHit change seem worse than it is, since foes can now get in more closely and hit more often. Either that or Hurricane was stacking itself on people with pulses, and now the pulses being less frequent means that no longer occurs.

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 02:42 PM

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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies. :)

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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?

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The bazillion recommendations that were asking a bit too much:
1) Respec to SS (just to be able to run in try to hit and get propelled back to get a very slim chance to hit stormies). Not..
2) Buy web and stun grenades. (did, wasted Inf, missed every time, no refund was given)
3) Get a blaster on your team (making a team of 8 with one player that can touch the stormie from afar when the other 7 can't touch them fully demonstrates the problem) to attack one stormie
4) Can't use MoG is Siren's Call silly!

No one should have to do 10 things to have to deal with one power that runs continuously and isn't a click. For all those powers that were on all the time and running all the time that helped people stay alive like Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Instant Healing, and MoG, they were all made clicks from toggles. You can either have Hurricane made a click or have it nerfed in others way. Trust me. You'd be even less happy with a click with a long recharge time.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 02:45 PM

And that's why I'm not a number cruncher...

I think you might be right, in that the One-Two punch on that might have been too much. Not by a lot (imo), but still just enough to make me pause and adjust.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 02:54 PM

Stormbringer,

You just spent a fair amount of time saying not much.

--thanks.

I mentioned you need a travel power. That implies clearly that you need the prerequisites. Please don't tell me you need two. I've never once faced a storm user with two, and they all did fine. Super Jump was normally more than sufficient.

--i believe, in competitive pvp, you need 2. superjump goes away with immobs which are easy enough to land in pvp and break mez protection significantly faster than holds do. you'll want something to fall back on when you're jump isn't there. if you're relying on movement as much as you are to apply your debuff, you'll want something like ss too. consider the arena settings with very low ceilings for instance. it's just smarter to have two. a stationary storm is a dead storm. any storm that's serious about pvp will likely have 2 travel powers. or they'll partner with an emp, kin or sonic defender/controller to insure they don't get immobilized. if you're interested in testing this out for yourself, i suggest the handy web grenades on your super jumping solo stormer. he won't be jumping for long. he'll be crawling.

Mez protection is far from required for a Stormie to be effective. I know. Do you know why? Because all of my PvP experience is with characters that have holds, and I made it my mission to disable the Hurricane casters I saw.

--a storm defender is one shot from being useless. a hold, disorient or sleep is all it takes. i don't know what kind of mezzing toon you play, but it's not hard to create the distance you need to launch an unfettered hold. if you can't do it, ask someone on your team to create that distance or to take the shot themselves. one shot. then the storm defender is no longer a problem. he's dead.

Remember that my post was about team tactics. Only very poor teams leave the storm character alone while someone like a Dominator picks on them. Yes, I usually disrupted the stormie. Yes, it had meaning or I wouldn't have kept it up. But it was virtually always suicide for me. It involved sacrificing myself over and over just to nullify that one character for 20 or so seconds.

--next time put your spines scrapper on the storm. or your spines stalker.

Any hero team smarter than a sack of rocks protected the Storm defender. Anyone who could had mez protection cast on them. Anyone who could immediately healed them. Anyone who could immediately tried to kill anyone who threatend the Storm Defender/Controller.

--go for the ones providing the mezz protection first. once they fall, so does half the team. the buffers are where the real powers lies in a good pvp team.

What other character in PvP warrents that kind of attention? What other powerset in play is a huge red flag of "defeat that character or we are screwed?" Can you name one that even comes close to the urgency of Hurricane?

--sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first. the only reason that storm is alive is because 1) he/she has been granted mez protection and 2) someone is there to heal him/her.

Most Storm characters are far from helpless. Controllers have a wide array of counter mezzes to use on you. Some of the Defender blast sets are very effective against other Squishies in PvP - I can only wish I got the full Psionic Blast set that Defenders do on my Dominator.

--unfortunately most defender blasts suck in pvp. take it from me. i have electric. while i agree, defenders are tot defenseless, they are far from dangerous. at most, a debuffing defender can hope to debilitate one of his teammates for a time, sacrificing his own participation to keep that other toon from being effective. this is what debuffing defenders do. it's all we do. we don't have buffs. we don't have damage. all we do is debuff--because of this we hear a good deal of complaints like yours.

--for controllers it's different. they can be effective because they pose an offensive threat AND they have the ability to defend themselves. they also get mez protection...a limited version of mez protection (if they choose a particular epic). a storm controller still cannot heal him/herself. they still need to move to be effective. they're not without their weaknesses. i can't speak for all 'trollers, but my ice/storm is far from overpowered. on certain teams i would say she can be very effective. on other teams i would say her presence is negligible. on some teams (where i have no outside healing), she is often a target for scrappers, blasters and tanks (albeit well-built tanks).

Again, let me restate what I said in my post. Hurricane was not perfect. Hurricane users were not invincible. However, the singular effect of that power on the battlefield overshadowed everything else. The arrival of no other hero powerset could change the course of events to the degree that Hurricane could. This is why it was changed.

--i beg to differ. i think empathy and kin are a lot more significant in team battles. i would argue that a well-played sonic and ff could be equally as effective as any storm, if not moreso (because of their ability to remove opponants from competition alltogether, without sacrificing themselves).

--i think the nerf to hurricane was a kneejerk response to player complaints that were ill-informed. i think the problem is not with hurricane and how it was performing, but with other aspects of the game (stackable mez protection buffs, for instance). now this is not an easy thing to see in the arena or in a pvp zone. all anyone notices is the big dumb hurricane that keeps pushing them away. so that's what people complatin about.

If you want to see a Hurricane player who could kill you dead as a Squishie, I recommend you look up Blunt on the Justice server. His character was Storm/Psi. And, in fact, he could kill Dominators and Corruptors with tremendous facility. Psi Blast contains some excellent, fast activating blasts that include such wonderful side effects as sleep, disorient and immobilization. Combining this with the knockback effect of Hurricane, the slow and -fly effects of Snowstorm, and Hurricane's lingering toHit debuff, Blunt could catch other squishies, disable them, prevent them from getting up, and kill them at leasure.

--sounds pretty good. i don't know much abou the psi set for defenders. i know for controllers it's devastating.

So understand that appealing to my notion that somehow Hurricane users are helpless targets simply isn't going to carry much weight with me. Do I think they were godly? Certainly not. But they weren't some walking target, just waiting to die.

--on some teams they are.

---but to my point....it takes more than hurricane to make an effecitve build here. it takes reliable, fast movement powers...it takes a formidable offense...and it takes significant mez protection. yes storm can be a formidable set, in some builds and on some teams. it is also far from invincible. it is built on a lot more than just hurricane. and very often, what a good storm summoner is built on is a good team.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 02:56 PM

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?

can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 03:00 PM

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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).

maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...

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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies. :)

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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?

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The bazillion recommendations that were asking a bit too much:
1) Respec to SS (just to be able to run in try to hit and get propelled back to get a very slim chance to hit stormies). Not..
2) Buy web and stun grenades. (did, wasted Inf, missed every time, no refund was given)
3) Get a blaster on your team (making a team of 8 with one player that can touch the stormie from afar when the other 7 can't touch them fully demonstrates the problem) to attack one stormie
4) Can't use MoG is Siren's Call silly!

No one should have to do 10 things to have to deal with one power that runs continuously and isn't a click. For all those powers that were on all the time and running all the time that helped people stay alive like Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Instant Healing, and MoG, they were all made clicks from toggles. You can either have Hurricane made a click or have it nerfed in others way. Trust me. You'd be even less happy with a click with a long recharge time.

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so...did you try any of these things?

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 03:14 PM

Stormbringer,

I have faced storm summoners with a Mind/Psi dominator, an Ice/Dark corruptor, and a Dark/Dark corruptor. Of the three, I am most pleased with the performance of my Ice/Dark in PvP.

I already mentioned that I could hold the storm summoner. Once at a time. Sometimes that was good enough for someone to bum rush them. Sometimes they died. Sometimes the villains could then drive off the hero force that was using the storm summoner as a team anchor. I've said in every post that I am well aware that Hurricane can be dropped, and I did it just as you describe. Usually I would dive bomb the storm summoner from stealth and mez them as I approached, well outside the Hurricane.

Except, when they have mez protection from an ally. You know, when the Empath is lingering in the Hurricane. Or when there are two empaths, or someone with mez shields using Stimulate. Or even just a ranged support character squatting in the hurricane.

I'm well aware that any Empath on a team is a high priority target because of the longevity they can provide to all their teammates. The problem comes in when you can synergize that priority with a Stormer.

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next time put your spines scrapper on the storm. or your spines stalker.

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Let's see, what other powerset in the game requires lmited, specific powersets to counter it? Hmm. Not coming up with much here. Oh, wait, TP foe! Something that anyone can get and is, despite that, much reviled.

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sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first.

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You aren't answering my question. Perhaps it was not clear.

Lets say you've got a mix of random heroes and villains. They are relatively evenly matched. Now add any one character to the hero side.

I contend that there is no other powerset in the game that you can add to the heroes that will affect their survivability and will reshape their team dynamic as much as a stormer will (or at least did). The effects of Hurricane on the battlefield are so powerful that any heroes that do not form up on it as the center of any massed action against villains are simply foolish. Correspondingly, the villains must muster a concerted effort to defeat the stormer to counter this. Thus, the appearance of that power on the field of battle completely changes the dynamics of play.

I have seen this many times. I consider it an indisputable fact. Every time Hurricane has appeared in ongoing play where one was not already present, it has single-handedly defined the lines of battle. There is no other power for which I have ever seen this be true.

TP foe comes close, but TP foe is limited by the rate of activation. Unless you count using it to cripple key assets of the opposing team, TP foe has limited ability to affect a full team of people.

Any such power in any game inherently draws attention to itself from people responsible for balance.

UberGuy

04-13-2006, 03:17 PM

Another point is that you seem to be including a lot of Raid or Arena play here. My focus is on Hero vs. Villain PvP, such as we have now in Siren's Call. I rarely see team HvV in places like Warburg, and today, no one in any HvV has access to epic pools.

I find it possible that Hurricane was less powerful in HvH PvP such as in the Arena, if for no other reason than that it would at least be available to both sides. There is nothing even approaching Hurricane's functionality on the villain side of things.

Stormbringer

04-13-2006, 03:40 PM

uberguy, i'm about to leave work (where i like to do most of my posting), but i'm more than happy to continue this discussion with you tomorrow.

prof_chaos

04-13-2006, 03:43 PM

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Either way the power is far from useless and is uber in it's own right. I can ask any Storm Defender or Controller right now if there going to respec Hurricane out of there build due to this nerf and they wil say No. It would be like me saying that Unyielding is pointless to take because they added a -5% to Defense and lowered the Mag protection. It's making Mountains out of Mole Hills.

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I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.

Iron_Specter

04-13-2006, 03:48 PM

They claim this was a nerf to prevent corner trapping. I don't agree with it being required. That was hard to do on an alert player to begin with and it trapped the person doing it as well as the one in the corner so was not that useful and therefore not common. It ruins the main advantage of the storm set and storm lacks a lot to gain that advantage. What good is a push power that can't push anyone. It was a great power before against melee and usless against ranged. Now it is still useless against ranged and only fair against melee. You also lose some of the positioning advantage it gave. this is a huge hit to storm defenders and an minor hit to controllers who relied less on the hurricane's advantages. I think this is a badly thought out and unnecessary nerf.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 04:04 PM

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What good is a push power that can't push anyone.

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To me, it's not a push power (or atleast isn't any more ;)). Now it's designed for what it does. It debuffs accuracy and range, with some repel and knockback. It's not useless, though it can no longer do what many people were doing with it: position enemies.

Mr_Anderson

04-13-2006, 04:14 PM

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, every word of it. So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers. Each and every powerset and power has it's strengths and weaknesses. It is up to the player to determine how to prevent being pinned. Have someone teleport you out, mezz the stormie, or something. The devs like to talk on and on about using each power or powerset to their strengths. This is a tactical use of hurricane, being played to its strength. Why then, when there are so many ways around it, nerf this power? It's idiocy on the devs part to do this. There was no reason for this nerf. Players simply need to play to their own strengths as well, and use their heads to find ways around certain tactics used by other players. It's the same idiocy used since the beginning of MMO's, instead of making the game harder, they nerf the players. Idiocy. Reverse this and have players use their heads. You just made things a lot less fun for stormies everywhere. Idiocy.

Pwning_Ghost

04-13-2006, 04:37 PM

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Either way the power is far from useless and is uber in it's own right. I can ask any Storm Defender or Controller right now if there going to respec Hurricane out of there build due to this nerf and they wil say No. It would be like me saying that Unyielding is pointless to take because they added a -5% to Defense and lowered the Mag protection. It's making Mountains out of Mole Hills.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because you lose your i dont have to really fight ever power doesnt mean its not still useful. im sure you will discover this for yourself. and as for the pvp aspect, its because of abuse that it got nerfed, same as AS one shotting, and placate hidding stalkers from the whole team of heros after oneshotting a squishy.

we (the pvp community) get ourselves nerfed, have you not reallized this yet?

its not the pve people like yourself its the pvp community that keeps taking advantage of specific powers or specific builds that might have ruined your pve experience, for this im sorry.

I too am guilty of oneshotting and escaping, and complaining about superspeeders with Hurricane that can see through my hide+stealth in pvp knocking me into corners and either getting me debt or ganked while unable to defend myself. and because of my lack of ability to deal with them, especially when your dealing with 6 or more at one time, i was upset about them in pvp as well and probably helped to get them toned down.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 04:51 PM

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So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link? Proof? Evidance? Anything at all besides your word alone? I ask because I don't think they have ever said that, or anything close to it, and because if they did, I would love to see the quote.

Skywatch

04-13-2006, 05:31 PM

My main has been a stormer since beta. All the time I have been playing this character, I have been made to feel inadequate by blasters, scrappers, tankers, and even controllers. Defenders were "balanced" they said. At least I had some powers which, when my team was in trouble, could be useful in pulling said teams fat out of the fire.

Now my character, after having his defensive powers nerfed, is having yet ANOTHER power nerfed because of the juvies whining in PvP. Wonderful. :mad:

I was never in favor of PvP when they introduced it in this game, and after everything I've read, I'm even less enchanted with it now. I think its time I started my own thread. Lets get PvP out of CoX and back where it belongs.

Anywhere else but here.

Zapping

04-13-2006, 05:32 PM

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. That's like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Kid, I kind of agree with you on some of this (I know you're amazed). Look, I knew a hurricane nerf had to be coming at some point, I've been around MMO's too long not to see it. Its not that I felt it was needed but I saw it coming. I feel this may be a bit too strong,l but then again nerfs tend to be (like some of your multitude of regen nerfs).

My problem is dealing with storm defenders, where many people have problems with storm controllers (I have both so I feel I can speak knowingly about them). The Devs really made some problems for themselves with the storm set. Its not a heal set like empathy, and its not a strict debuff set like dark or rad. Its not simply defense through bubbles like FF. Storm is in many ways the jack of all trades master of none set. And a lot of the way it defends is through positioning and controlling the battlefield. Hence why storm controllers tend to be more effective the defenders. This is the fatal flaw of the set and one that players have long recognized.

I've already said I don't really PvP. I've tried it but its never been my thing. I just don't have the time to really get good and in with the good teams to be able to truly compete. But really the storm defender has a massive amount of tools at his disposal when facing an enemy. But Hurricane is the most noticeable. Storm was designed to keep squishies safe from melee. Its why tanks and scrappers have had issues with us since day one and blasters have learned to love us.

So now that this defense is being taken away, what is the role of a stormer? We have slows (snow storm), assuming you stay in range. We have freezing rain to debuff, but once again you have to stand in the effect, which PvE has never done let alone PvP. We have thunder clap and lightning storm to detoggle you. Thunder clap was never used much as its range was less then hurricane, expect to see it more often now (although with detoggle changes who knows). We have gale for positioning, but t has horrible base accuracy. We have O2 which has a reasonable distance heal and can help resist status effects and end drain, but its not enough to keep someone dieing alive (especially for the end cost). We can offer some resists and stealth, but in the age of perception steamy mist doesn't do much for anyone. And finally we have tornado. A wild uncontrollable power that can be very nice, but if the stormer doesn't know how to use it its likely to get them killed instead. So where's this leave us? We had one thing we were really good at, and hence that's what you saw us do. Now we can do a lot, but none of it as well as another defender set.

Wow, this post rambled much more then I intended, my apologies. I guess I'm just voicing some frustrations. As I've said, based on testing my stormers will be fine. I'll adapt and keep moving. I've made stormers since before the game was released. I've been kicked from teams for being a stormer before ever getting to a mission to show what I can do. If that age come back I'm fine with it. I'll be sad because a lot of people will miss out on a great set, but I'll keep rolling along.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 05:38 PM

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So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link? Proof? Evidance? Anything at all besides your word alone? I ask because I don't think they have ever said that, or anything close to it, and because if they did, I would love to see the quote.

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, even if there is no direct quote that can be found after board cleanup this is something that was implied time and time again by the developers, and rightly so. Differences between PvP and PvE have long been a source of necessary contention amongst players, where Power X was adequate with one form of gaming and totally game-wrecking in the other. To ask for proof of something that's been an understanding between PvE players and the developers isn't right. You've said yourself that you pretty much take for granted that the developers try to balance out things to the best of their ability, all based upon an assumption.

There is nothing surprising in the other poster's statement on this general understanding.

Freem

04-13-2006, 05:39 PM

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[ QUOTE ]

I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because you lose your i dont have to really fight ever power doesnt mean its not still useful. im sure you will discover this for yourself. and as for the pvp aspect, its because of abuse that it got nerfed, same as AS one shotting, and placate hidding stalkers from the whole team of heros after oneshotting a squishy.

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way is hurricane ever a "I don't have to really fight ever" power in PvE, as the poster posts about his use of it in PVE (since he doesn't PvP)?
If you think fight is running up to someone and kicking them in the face, 5 out all CoH ATs (blasters, controllers, defenders, peacebringers, warshades) have the option of never "really ever" fighting, ever. Maybe you need to revise your definition of "fighting"...

Obviously you have never used hurricane yourself in PvE either, since you don't seem to be cognizant of the fact that it draws a ridiculous amount of aggro from mobs. That's not fighting though?

And not really commenting on the poster I am replying to: comparing hurricane to powers like repel and force bubble is really very erroneous.
In PvE, Repel is a marginal power for a kinetics -- they contribute most to the team with their buffs and end, damage buffs. Force bubble (sadly) for a bubbler is also marginal, their main contribution being the three bubbles. A storm user has no buffs unless you want to count o2 boost. Changing a key, bread-and-butter power is a big deal. Not the end of the world, but you really can't say "hurricane is still better than repel / force bubble".

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 05:50 PM

There's a slight difference between "balancing to the best of their abilities" and "never going to nerf". My point is that, and that alone.

Midgardener

04-13-2006, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There's a slight difference between "balancing to the best of their abilities" and "never going to nerf". My point is that, and that alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Understood. My point is that, according to your own statements, it's all hearsay.

Again, if a change is made for reasons both PvP and PvE, this should be stated rather than changes made to both and only attributed to one. To do otherwise is something I find false.

CommunistPenguin

04-13-2006, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But the Kinetic power is a knockback, costs more in Endurance, doesn't do - Range, and doesn't Debuff the Target they touch.
Hurricane IS a Repel (1 of only 3 Powers that have this effect), does - Range, does Debuff, cost's less in Endurance, and does Knockback...

Comparing the Kinetic Repel (which is actually Kncokback not Repel ) and Hurricane your going to come out on the loosing end. Hurricane is so much better it's not even funny. It's still one of the best Toggle powers in the game. It's just not Godly in power but Uber instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

tell me how the -acc and -range are going to help me position mobs to lower my scatter? hmm they wont? Well then, i guess for what i was using it for it might just be a major nerf that was completely unecesary. As to you comment about 'enlightening' me, Ive been playing this set for two years, i know what the powers do. I am upset because i have had a major tool of mine decreased significantly, wihtout just cause.

Mr_Right

04-13-2006, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that, according to your own statements, it's all hearsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true... If something is said by a Red Name, you can 99% of the time know it's not hearsay. That's why I asked for the link. Because if it does exist, I'd like to use it myself, maybe put it in my sig...

I belive (and I might be mistaken) that when Devs post, the thread exists for longer then casual forum cleanings, so even long time posts can exist for a while.

Again, I already agree with your second statement.

CommunistPenguin

04-13-2006, 06:18 PM

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I seriously think the devs should elaborate a little more on why it was nerf'd. From what I can see it appears that Hurricane was infact operating outside of what it was intended to do and was simply highlighted by PvP. Assuming it was altered for PvE due to PvP issues isn't a fair assumption since the devs are not in the habit of lying and said this wouldn't happen if they could help it.

As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose. You have to admit, the -range, knockback and -acc was secondary to the repel itself. So in sense, the debuff aspect was taking a back seat to the control aspect.

That simply seems wrong for a debuff powerset. I don't think the power has been made less valuable at all, its simply changed purpose. I have two stormies and one is going to benefit alot from this change, it used to be annoying being unable to use Ice Slick with Hurricane as it would instantly force them off of the ice. Now its possible to benefit from the -acc debuff and keep them on the ice for longer as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically your saying that your controller will be fine

...
Lets run through the powers shall we?

Gale: mob positioning/damage
02: buff/heal
Snowstorm: control(by the devs own decision)
fr: control/debuff/damage
hurricanne: debuff/mob positioining
thunderclap: control
Tornado: control/damage
Lightning cloud: damage/positioning

If you actually look at the storm set, theres two actual debuff powers in it, thats all. Hurricanne and freezing rain. The fact is the set IS based around mob positioning. NOT debuffs. So this change makes no sense by that theory.

Darkaj

04-13-2006, 07:13 PM

The nerf to Hurricane sucks. After I-5 my Fire/Rad controller wasn't much fun anymore, so I rolled an Ill/Storm controller. Illusion control is lousy, but Storm made up for it. A big part of that was Hurricane.

It's deja vu all over again. Except this time I don't think I'll have the motivation to roll yet another char. What's the point, when you have no freakin idea what the char will be like after the next nerf -- I mean issue.

FivefifteenA

KidQwik

04-13-2006, 07:36 PM

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?

can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't use any of your epic powers in Siren's Call or Warburg. Too high. Also, I'm mostly in Siren's Call as my villain. I can't battle my MA/Regen against a stormie because we're both supposed to be good in SC.

CommunistPenguin

04-13-2006, 07:59 PM

please edit your quotes. Theres no need to quote several posts woth, just the last bit.

Overboard

04-14-2006, 05:41 AM

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What good is a push power that can't push anyone.

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To me, it's not a push power (or atleast isn't any more ;)). Now it's designed for what it does. It debuffs accuracy and range, with some repel and knockback. It's not useless, though it can no longer do what many people were doing with it: position enemies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well over a year ago, and long before PvP ... I vigorously defended the Storm set against complaints that it underperformed compared to the other Defender primaries. The basis of my argument was that the sets strength lies in its unique ability to position mobs. Stormbringer and Zapping may remember those discussions. As CommunistPenguin points out a few posts ago, the set is as much about positioning as it is debuffing. If a Storm Defender can't use positioning to counter the sets scatter effects in PvE, then the synergy of the set is lost or at least reduced.

In the realm of powers that 'affect enemies', there's a fine line between Debuffing and Control. Where does/should positioning fall? The original powerset designs don't seem to favor either, as the repel/kb powers are roughly split between Defenders and Controllers. If the devs have decided that positioning should be strictly a Control function, then I would expect to see some significant upheaval in the sets as that decision runs counter to the original design.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... to me, Hurricane is/should be a push power. The debuffs make it viable to use.

KidQwik

04-14-2006, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
please edit your quotes. Theres no need to quote several posts woth, just the last bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're trying to make the screen explode or make something than looks like an Easter egg.... ;-)

aqshy2004

04-14-2006, 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They claim this was a nerf to prevent corner trapping. I don't agree with it being required. That was hard to do on an alert player to begin with and it trapped the person doing it as well as the one in the corner so was not that useful and therefore not common. It ruins the main advantage of the storm set and storm lacks a lot to gain that advantage. What good is a push power that can't push anyone. It was a great power before against melee and usless against ranged. Now it is still useless against ranged and only fair against melee. You also lose some of the positioning advantage it gave. this is a huge hit to storm defenders and an minor hit to controllers who relied less on the hurricane's advantages. I think this is a badly thought out and unnecessary nerf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you have "superhuman" reflexes (which serve for nothing here as it's almost a turn-based game), it was easy to get corner trapped in a closed map and made useless. 2 storm defenders on my team make great "corner-trapping" "machines" on instanced SG base raids (we have done several now).

Now there's a slight chance to get out. I think that's fair.

You know what?.....force bubble will get the same treatment somewhere in the future. It's easy to trap someone in closed quarters with those powers.

Soyuz

04-14-2006, 06:39 AM

I've PM'ed Castle on this issue, but it's worth pointing out (again) that Hurricane's repel function always has been much more effective in PvP than it was in PvE. It's not at all unusual for a mob to escape from a Hurricane corner-pin, but a player has almost no chance of getting out unless he was a vertical movement power or Teleport.

That's why I'm so steamed about this issue. The power always behaved differently depending on whether the target was a player or a mob. Now, instead of fixing that disparity, they've simply reduced the effectiveness of the power. That hits the non-PvP Storm user (especially the Storm Defender, who lacks other control options) very hard indeed.

Cheers,

~R~

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 07:53 AM

uberguy...

didn't know were were talking only villains. i'm not as familiar with their sets. my limited experiences with my own lead me to believe they are, overall, underpowered a bit in pvp at least relative to heroes...i attribute this to a number of issues: 1) level 40 level cap, 2) lack of enhancement slots, 3) lack of hami-os, 4) lack of front-loaded damage powers (attributable, in part to a lack of damage-oriented epic powers), 5) lack of support toons playing support roles (bring more corrupters to your fights, guys).

i'm sure there are more reasons for this perceived imbalance (and i do believe the perception is largely accurate). for my part i'd like to see heroes and villains have access to the same power sets eventually. and, yes, that would include storm.

to your points, however...

a storm summoner with mez protection is a potent force in the arena. he/she can do a major number on non-melee based attacks, debuffing their to-hit and their range. if i were playing a villain and wished to avoid this i'd do some/all of the following...

1) create distance and attack from a range outside the influence of the hurricane.
2) attack the source of the storm's mez protection
3) break the storm's mez protection with holds/immobs...once stationary, the storm shouldn't be much of a threat
4) if i were unable to target the source of the storm's mez protection and unable to break the storm's mez protection i would go for slows in an attempt to render the storm useless
5) failing this i would ask one of my major offensive threats to target the storm...corrupters, blasters, scrappers or stalkers work best for this

none of this is probably news to you. as a rule of thumb, if you run into an empath supporting a storm, take out the empath and the storm will crumble soon afterward. neither is much of a threat offensively, unless the storm happens to be a 'troller.

as for my earlier suggestion of putting spines scrapper/stalker on the storm. there are other builds that are effective against storms, i merely suggested that one as the obvious scissors to storms paper. these builds do an exceptional job of immobilizing storms, attacking through their hurricane and turning them into big, hurricane-pancake-shaped targets. they will send the storm running, trust me.

but other builds are effective against storms as well. brutes do well against them. corrupters (if they attack from a distance), masterminds (if they focus their pets on the storm) and yes, even dominators. although i think their damage is a bit low at this stage of the game and they definitely need a buff. a good single-target mez, spammed at a storm from a safe distance, will bring him/her down eventually.

does storm require limited, specific powersets to beat it? not really. unless you consider ranged attacks limited and specific. or mezzes. or brute/tanker/scrapper/stalker/blaster melee attacks.

as for your suggestion that a storm can reshape the batttlefield...i agree in part. a storm can do significant debuffing in certain arenas. but in siren's call or warburg? to be effective the storm needs all his/her opponants clumped together. as a smart villain team leader, have your team spread out a bit. have some folks take to the air. make sure everyone with superjump is hopping around like a fool (or use CJ+3-slotted hurdle+SS for awesome combat movement). the storm will be much less effective if you guys spread out and keep moving.

after that...go back to the basics. remove the team's source of healing and mez protection. then remove the biggest threats...either ice/nrg blasters, spines or broadsword scrappers, or, if you like, the storm. how you remove them depends on what powersets you have available.

i don't agree that a storm can reshape a battle more than any other set, however. a well-supported FF defender/controller/mastermind can negate the effects of a storm while offering his/her team mez protection--these sets can pin mobs into corners as well as any storm and utilize detention field to effectively eliminate one opponant from any battle. a well-played sonic defender/controller/corrupter has access to sonic cages (which can remove opponants for the duration of a contest), clarity (which provides the dreaded mez protection) and sonic armors for his/her entire team. these guys are significant foes as well. there are other sets of significant value in a fight...mind control, empathy, kinetics. all of which have the capacity to help turn the tide.

the assertion that the storm set alone, and hurricane in particular, is the reason the battle turned in the cases you mention is not accurate. it can only be a combination of things...some of which you may have noticed, some of which you may not have noticed. the primary reason players opposing a hurricane-using defender or 'troller notice it si because it debuffs them. the buffs of the empath do not directly affect the empath's opponants. the buffs of the kinetics sets to not directly affect the kinetic defender's oppontant.

so guess what?

no one notices them.

and because no one notices them, no one complains about the.

i suggest, in the case you mentioned above where one set is added to any battle to make the difference in an otherwise even fight, adding an empath or a kin. they will make all the difference in the world. moreso than a storm i think, unless the team is very small.

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 07:59 AM

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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.

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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.

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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.

Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.

Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.

Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.

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once again, you're mistaken.

any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.

he'd be dead.

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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.

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no, here's what would happen...

one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.

and it'd be all over.

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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.

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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?

can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?

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You can't use any of your epic powers in Siren's Call or Warburg. Too high. Also, I'm mostly in Siren's Call as my villain. I can't battle my MA/Regen against a stormie because we're both supposed to be good in SC.

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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

Space_Goat

04-14-2006, 08:21 AM

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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.

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It is due to inductive reasoning. If something is abusive against other players, that's an indication that it might also be abusive against mobs.

This inductive step has resulted in a lot of changes to a lot of powers. So when you see or hear that a power is causing a lot of havok in PvP, you should care.

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 08:29 AM

the problem is that hurricane didn't work that well trapping mobs in corners before.

some mobs would jump over you and your hurricane, some mobs would squeak out the sides and get pushed away in the opposite direction, some mobs would just fly away.

and that was what it was like before.

now it just flat out sucks.

Khenti

04-14-2006, 09:05 AM

The argument has been made again and again and I’m simply going to put my foot in to say that I agree with the issue of differing performance of Hurricane between PvP and PvE.

My Controller never found handy corners to shove players into in PvP zones. They were crafty enough to realize they were being shoved around and would run out of my repel range. I certainly never felt particularly invincible. True, if a solo melee class attacked me, I could usually feel safe, but if a team came over to my team, I knew I’d be one of the first casualties. We’re hardly invincible.

I’ve not participated in a base raid, so I suspect this is really where the issue comes up. Confined quarters lend themselves well to a Stormie. I can’t wait to hear that Forcefields are going to take the next hit. After all, it’s another set that isn’t particularly beloved. If use is found for some of those more situational powers, I suspect something must be done.

In PvE, mobs were always finding ways to escape my corner trap. I loved being able to position the baddies, pretty much the only real use I’ve found for Hurricane as my Controller. Far more than my toon, however, it’s going to be the Defenders that suffer for this. I don’t agree that a set that seems largely based around either chaos or control should be penalized for doing their job correctly.

Frankly, I’d rather have seen the debuff lose effectiveness, so long as it meant I could keep the strength of my repel. It’s what I and many others used it for.

----------------------
Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti – Lvl 15 Warshade
AkenAmenti – Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm – Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial – Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor

UberGuy

04-14-2006, 09:07 AM

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, Strombringer.

I like SC because it has a purpose, and most of the really powerful melee survival powers aren't available (IH for /Regen being an obvious and well-noted exception). There's a goal on two fronts. Win the zone, and get bounty. Most other actual PvP holds little interest for me. I go to Warburg to get nukes. The fact that I sometimes have to fight other players there is just something that I have to deal with, not something I seek out. I dislike Bloody Bay with a passion, because I dislike the power level of characters at level 15.

My assessment is based on having been in SC against many sorts of heroes. Some have worked well as teams (even if they weren't literally all on the same team). Some have been more random. Same with the villains.

Healers and buffers of all sorts are always a priority target, as are any control characters. They add a great deal to their team and, compared to melee characters, are easy to kill.

I've fought heroes plenty with no storm summoner around. I've also fought them plenty with one around. I've fought as a hero with no storm summoner. I've fought as a hero with one around. In my experience, the differences are night and day.

Yes, if you have a bubbler (either variety), it behooves mez-vulnerable and perhaps low HP characters to loiter in things like Dispersion Bubble. It's rarely worth keeping the melee characters bunched up in there too. I've never seen an overriding notion that, when things get tough, you can retreat to a Dispersion Bubble and expect it to provide the defensive boost you need to regroup.

On the other hand, Hurricane did do that. Everyone would form up on the Hurricane, knowing full well that no one much could bother them in there. You get an empath or other mez-prot/heal spammer and a stormie and you surround them with melees, and suddenly you've got the CoX equivalent of a shield wall. You've got a formation that can advance into some of the most withering attacks of a massed villain team and achieve success. Not always. Not every time. But with more consistency and more likelyhood of success than any other single power I have seen available in Siren's Call.

When I was on the hero side, I did it too. I was usually in there with a Blaster. I would rush out from the Hurricane, strike foes, and retreat to it. It was like having a forward base to strike from.

That's all I'm saying. Anything that stands on its own as a singular power that is a consistent contributer to success is going to get "balance" attention from the devs in any game. Yeah, you can point to healing and other debuffs and control powers. But lots of people have those, on both sides of any PvP conflict. Hurricane stood on its own as a unique and powerful tool. Possibly too unique and too powerful

If it had been available to both heroes and villains, maybe, just maybe, it would have been less likely to be targeted, but I don't think I would have betted on it.

Skullcracker

04-14-2006, 09:07 AM

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Let's see, what other powerset in the game requires lmited, specific powersets to counter it? Hmm. Not coming up with much here. Oh, wait, TP foe! Something that anyone can get and is, despite that, much reviled.

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All of the stalker ones? People take power choices, like leadership, that they don't otherwise want just for the perception. Focussed acc is a decent power, but with +perception, it makes the other epics fairly irrelevant for pvp.

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sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first.

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You aren't answering my question. Perhaps it was not clear.

Lets say you've got a mix of random heroes and villains. They are relatively evenly matched. Now add any one character to the hero side.

I contend that there is no other powerset in the game that you can add to the heroes that will affect their survivability and will reshape their team dynamic as much as a stormer will (or at least did). The effects of Hurricane on the battlefield are so powerful that any heroes that do not form up on it as the center of any massed action against villains are simply foolish. Correspondingly, the villains must muster a concerted effort to defeat the stormer to counter this. Thus, the appearance of that power on the field of battle completely changes the dynamics of play.

I have seen this many times. I consider it an indisputable fact. Every time Hurricane has appeared in ongoing play where one was not already present, it has single-handedly defined the lines of battle. There is no other power for which I have ever seen this be true.

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Any such power in any game inherently draws attention to itself from people responsible for balance.

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I'm not going to answer the question 100% in your terms. But nearly everytime I've been in pvp, the tactics, the battle, the whole thing, has been distorted into a game of how to deal with the stalkers. People are generally hiding in the hurricane to keep away from the stalkers.

I can't say what adding hide and assassination does to the battlefield, because to introduce it, it would need to go away first.

What is amusing, is that we hear from castle how stalkers dominate SC. So they get a trivial nerf, and stormers, who are the biggest nuisance for stalkers, and sadly brutes, get a big fat nerf for pvp and pve.

Shard_Warrior

04-14-2006, 09:10 AM

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Always wanted to post that. lol. :D

Primal

04-14-2006, 09:15 AM

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it might also be abusive against mobs.

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Heh, this struck me as amusing. You know, I'm sure there are plenty of complaints over at the Enemy Forums about all kinds of things, but I'm not so sure we should start listening to them. They're naturally prejudiced. ;)

Besides, whatever sick [censored] of a dev decided to give them KO Blow, cancels out all their allegations of abuse.

(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 09:22 AM

On the other hand, Hurricane did do that. Everyone would form up on the Hurricane, knowing full well that no one much could bother them in there. You get an empath or other mez-prot/heal spammer and a stormie and you surround them with melees, and suddenly you've got the CoX equivalent of a shield wall. You've got a formation that can advance into some of the most withering attacks of a massed villain team and achieve success. Not always. Not every time. But with more consistency and more likelyhood of success than any other single power I have seen available in Siren's Call.

--the point i wish to make is that hurricane only provides part of the protection you mention above...it provides melee protection from SOME classes--essentially, those without repel resists. that's SOME MELEE. not all. some.

--hurricane, in the situation you mention above, is not doing anything to debuff ranged attacks unless the ranged attackers are (foolishly) hurling themselves headlong into the hurricane and lobbing off an attack as they do so.

--hurricnane is providing no mez protection in the situation you mention above. that has to come from somewhere else.

--hurricane is not providing any anti-tp protection either.

--the defender/controller using hurricane is not keeping his/her teammates healed by using hurricane.

SO...

it is NOT THE CASE that "no one much could bother them there" in the hurricane simply because of the hurricane. if no one could bother a team in that formation it is because of the composition of the team, the synergy between various (storm, empathy, kin and melee) sets, the tactics employed by the hero team and the various degrees of skill of each of the players.

the situation you describe above is not one of a single power unbalancing the game, it is one where a well-organized team is supporting each other and compensating for each others' weaknesses.

this is not exploitative.

this is pvp.

Lallendos

04-14-2006, 09:32 AM

Perfect summary, Storm.

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 09:36 AM

UberGuy

04-14-2006, 09:37 AM

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it is NOT THE CASE that "no one much could bother them there" in the hurricane simply because of the hurricane. if no one could bother a team in that formation it is because of the composition of the team, the synergy between various (storm, empathy, kin and melee) sets, the tactics employed by the hero team and the various degrees of skill of each of the players.

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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)

Again and again, I have agreed that Hurricane has weaknesses. You keep pointing to them as though there very existance balanced out Hurricane's strengths. I feel they did not. There was one reliable way to defeat Hurricane. Attack the caster from range. This is what I did to counter storm characters. You're not telling me anything I don't know.

Most attack powers have a maximum range of 80'. Sniper shots more like 100-120', depending on powerset. More powerful ranged attacks and some sets mez powers tend to have shorter ranges.

Sometimes I held them. Heck, sometimes I held them over and over, running out and deliberately making opening s for the villains to try and kill the stormer. Usually I was pig-piled by the stormie's allies when I did this, meaning the stormie was free to act again, worst case, after the duration of my hold. If someone else didn't kill them by then, the first thing to go up was always Hurricane. You act like the very fact that they can be held and damaged at range is enough to ensure their cancellation. It's not. It depends on a lot of factors. And if you can't line up those factors, the stormie is right back in action again.

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the situation you describe above is not one of a single power unbalancing the game, it is one where a well-organized team is supporting each other and compensating for each others' weaknesses.

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Do you think that team tactics are absent in the absence of a stormie? That people don't cover up for one another unless they've got a Hurricane on their side? I've seen excellent teams in operation without one. My very point is that, without Hurricane, even well organized, clearly communicating teams were vastly more vulnerable without Hurricane in the mix. Hurricane added a disproportionate benefit to any team, whether they had their heads on straight or not.

Edited to say some things with less hyperbole.

UberGuy

04-14-2006, 09:45 AM

Hurricane provided all of these things.

*) A significant toHit debuff. Given the base toHit of PvP is 50%, and toHit debuffs are subtracted from this base before accuracy is counted, this is a very powerful tool. Hit rates plummet in a Hurricane.
*) The debuff from Hurricane lasts 10 seconds after last application. A smart storm summoner uses this to advantage. When threatening foes approach, a smart stormer would charge them, attempting to joust them with the toHit debuff. For Super Jumping stormers, this is very effective.
*) The repel effect. This is somewhat useful for tormenting squishies you could trap in the Hurricane, but primarily I suspect the biggest benefit of this was to interfere with Stalkers' Assassin strike.

In other words, in Siren's Call PvP, the biggest benefits of Hurricane were the debuff, the debuff's duration (still broken, IMO), and the protection from AS.

Stormbringer

04-14-2006, 09:58 AM

How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)

--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...

--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.

--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.

--and there's no way hurricane is more effective now (after the pre-i7 patch) than it was before. if you'll recall, along with it's repel, hurricanes to-hit debuffs have been reduced in effectiveness as well.

Again and again, I have agreed that Hurricane has weaknesses. You keep pointing to them as though there very existance balanced out Hurricane's strengths. I feel they did not. There was one way to defeat Hurricane. Attack the caster from range. This is what I did to counter storm characters. You're not telling me anything I don't know.

--apparently i am. over and over i tell you ways to overcome hurricane, yet you appear convinced there is only one. here they are again: 1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes, 3) melee with to-hit buffs, 4) slows, 5) kill the mez protection, 6) tp the mez protection away, 7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called. hell there are probably more that i can't think of off the top of my head...BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!

Sometimes I held them. Heck, sometimes I held them over and over, running out and deliberately making opening s for the villains to try and kill the stormer. Usually I was pig-piled by the stormie's allies when I did this, meaning the stormie was free to act again, worst case, after the duration of my hold. If someone else didn't kill them by then, the first thing to go up was always Hurricane. You act like the very fact that they can be held and damaged at range is enough to ensure their cancellation. It's not. It depends on a lot of factors. And if you can't line up those factors, the stormie is right back in action again.

--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.

Do you think that team tactics are absent in the absence of a stormie? That people don't cover up for one another unless they've got a Hurricane on their side? I've seen excellent teams in operation without one. My very point is that, without Hurricane, even well organized, clearly communicating teams were vastly more vulnerable without Hurricane in the mix. Hurricane added a disproportionate benefit to any team, whether they had their heads on straight or not.

--see above response. i suggest calling out targets. when you've got one mezzed, let your teammates know and attack that hero. i recommend ventrillo or teamspeak to make this easier.