Massive Hurricane nerf

[Midgardener]

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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)

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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.

Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.

And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.

So please, people... Think of the NPCs.

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*laughs!* Nicely said. :D

The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks. ;)

[Stormbringer]

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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)

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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.

Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.

And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.

So please, people... Think of the NPCs.

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*laughs!* Nicely said. :D

The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks. ;)

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:eek:

[Tutelary]

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Hurricane provided all of these things.

*) A significant toHit debuff. Given the base toHit of PvP is 50%, and toHit debuffs are subtracted from this base before accuracy is counted, this is a very powerful tool. Hit rates plummet in a Hurricane.
*) The debuff from Hurricane lasts 10 seconds after last application. A smart storm summoner uses this to advantage. When threatening foes approach, a smart stormer would charge them, attempting to joust them with the toHit debuff. For Super Jumping stormers, this is very effective.
*) The repel effect. This is somewhat useful for tormenting squishies you could trap in the Hurricane, but primarily I suspect the biggest benefit of this was to interfere with Stalkers' Assassin strike.

In other words, in Siren's Call PvP, the biggest benefits of Hurricane were the debuff, the debuff's duration (still broken, IMO), and the protection from AS.

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Just wondering what your thoughts are when combining the Repel nerf AND the upcoming schedule change to Acc debuffs.

I never really counted on Steamy Mist as Defense having usually mixed with Resistance/Defense/End Reduction so that made Hurricane my main damage mitigator in mostly solo play. On well-built teams, I actually found myself forgetting about Hurricane sometimes.

I don't know the numbers, but it seems we will come out on the losing end even with the Defense changes. Having no self-heal, mobs(such as Werewolves) will have a better chance to close melee and take a swipe AND will now have a better chance to hit with that melee.

I really hate dealing with number crunching in a game as I leave that stuff for work so all I can say is having used my Stormer only a couple weeks ago fighting some even-conned Possessed Scientists in PI, I did not feel Hurricane was UBER as my Health dropped significantly until I got the mob down to around 2 foes(from about 5-6, usu about 3 minions 2 Lts). Will the upcoming Defense changes make Steamy Mist make up for the Acc debuff changes? And how will the Repel effect be compensated for(in reference to the example above about melee types being more of a threat)?

It just seems like a Lose-Lose situation PvE-wise.

[Tutelary]

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DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Always wanted to post that. lol. :D

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PvE-wise, I will agree its pretty damn close. And yes, I enjoyed Doom3 but not the movie.

[Mr_Right]

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*laughs!* Nicely said. :D

The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks. ;)

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:eek:

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Yeah, but their version doesn't have the Repel effect (something I wish they had...). The NPC version has the Knockback, the Debuff (that only lasts while in range, and ends the moment you leave range), and that's all. They're version is VERY much weaker then the player's version, even with the recent changes.

[UberGuy]

Actually, the change to the Schedules is already live. Which stinks, but there it is.

I don't quite know what to think of the schdule change covolved with the mob toHit change. Net, net, I think it won't do much to my characters who use toHit debuffs, partially because I play at the "sweet spot" that doesn't change much (+2 mobs) and because I play Dark Miasma, which retains a large ability to stack debuffs.

Storm and Rad, and I guess Trick Arrow, seem to be just plain worse off with the change unless they're fighting +3 foes, which is nice if they are and kinda lame if they aren't.

Note that in my debate with Stormbringer, I don't neccessarily advocate what happened to Hurricane, as such. I contend only that something needed to happen in PvP. I don't contend that the power was too strong in PvE, and I certainly am not convinced that it needed a double-whammy (schedule change and repel tick change).

Personally, if it had lost the ability to debuff for 10 seconds I think I would have been satisfied with the change. That would have been a PvE nerf too, but one I think which would have been more manageable.

[Mr_Right]

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Personally, if it had lost the ability to debuff for 10 seconds I think I would have been satisfied with the change. That would have been a PvE nerf too, but one I think which would have been more manageable.

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O.O

Oh no... that's one thing that would have ME up in a roar over. That 10 seconds is what makes the power useful in my eyes.

[Stormbringer]

i think the nerf is a mistake.

for pvp and pve.

if the devs wanted to address the problem of cornering mobs in base raids like they said, they should have done that.

unfortunately they did that and a lot more.

to me, it looks like a poor, generic solution to a very specific problem.

[UberGuy]

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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)

--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...

--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.

--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.

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First of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack.

Assume for a moment that Hurricane has the toHit debuff of Dark Miasma's Darkest Night. Darkest Night is a -18.75% toHit debuff. 3 slotting that with Schedule B SOs makes it -29.4375%. Brute Rage is +18% toHit, with one SO making that +21.6%.

Now with one accuracy slotted, that Brute would have a toHit of 1.33*(50-29.4+21.6) = 51.6%.

Now, assume instead that Hurricane is closer to Radiation Infection: -31.25% base. Now the numbers become

1.33*(50-49.1+21.6) = 30%.

So, it's possible Hurricane is a large toHit debuff or it's possible the Brute had a bad run. Franky, getting someone with Rage running is to miss 50% of the time is still pretty damn impressive.

And recall these are post nerf numbers.

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1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes


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Covered over and over in every one of my previous posts.

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3) melee with to-hit buffs

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Covered above.

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4) slows

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I have no idea why you think this does anything to them. The storm player does not need to be especially mobile - they are the strong point of the team.

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5) kill the mez protection

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You know, the mez protection that's in the Hurricane, and has all the same problems of actually killing the stormer themselves.

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6) tp the mez protection away

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This is definitely a viable strategy. TP foe is not ubiquitous in SC PvP, however.

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7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called.

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People with dedicated PvP builds probably see these powers more often. They are, in fact, incredibly rare among PvE players because they are widely reviled for PvE use. That means that you don't get them often. On the other hand, Hurricane is (or at least was) universally useful in PvE and PvP. It did not require a specialized PvP build to include it.

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BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!

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So, lets break it down again.

*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.

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--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.

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And again I believe you are blinded by your focus on dedicated PvP in controlled environments. It's apparent that the majority of your attention is on the Arena or Base Raids. HvV zones like Sirens' Call are open PvP. You get what you can when you enter the zone. I happen to be lucky and can go in with my SG-mates, some of whom I have years of gaming experience with and with whom I can communicate on voice comms. But that zone is rich with PuGs and all sorts of randomness. Once more I will reiterate my claim that liitle can cause more need for those potenitally random people on the villain side to act with true coordination than a Hurricane caster working with a group of heroes. In fact, I claim that a PuG of uncoordinated heroes with a stormer called for a coordinated group of villains to defeat.

[Stormbringer]

to your point...

"first of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack."

--this is problematic for several reasons: 1) you're not properly slotting rage for pvp, 2) you're not properly slotting your attacks for pvp. seriously, if you're going to gripe about a power being uber, please check to make sure it's really uber first. try it out slotting your rage for pvp...3 recharge, 3 to-hit buffs. try slotting your attacks for pvp as well...2 accuracies--minimum. you'll get better results.

--and yes, i know hero planner numbers are sometimes wrong, but i see no reason to believe the numbers you've provided are any better. in lieu of accurate data, i'm afraid this conversation is at a standstill.

as regards our other topics of conversation...

slows...if a storm can't move, he can't debuff squat. if the storm isn't moving anyone with a ranged attack can tee off them or their friends. they are sitting ducks. that's why i keep bring it up.

any mez protection within the hurricane is also exposed the same way the stormer is.

so why not tp the mez protector away? because it's not common in sc, doesn't mean it's not a valid tactic.

the presence of powers like DF, sonic cage TK and force bubble in PVP is because they work. and they work well. if you want to pvp competitively, try building your toon for pvp. in fact i would suggest this before calling for nerfs to sets you can't kill in certain situations. it would make the wonderful world of pvp a better place for all of us.

what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...

sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.

i submit to you, that unless you've done the work...unless you've tried all these things...you have no idea if the set you're complaining about is overpowered.

as for the rest of your post, i think it's just misleading...

you claim to have proven things that you have not. you routinely assert there's only one way to kill a storm and you refuse to see any other options. to me, it's no surprise you're having trouble in pvp. you need to take a step back and rethink things. start with your slotting and power selections. understand that people are good in pvp IN PART because they make sacrifices in pve. it's just the way it works. why else would i take both SJ and SS? to be better in pvp. toward that end i suggest taking a crack at it with your toon and copying over to test with a pvp build. heck take a whole team over. you'll be amazed at the difference your builds and power selections can make.

remember: at least 2 accuracies in every attack.

and, by all means, 6-slot rage.

good luck.

[UberGuy]

If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.

If you want to believe that everyone who comes in an open PvP zone has to be slotted for it, that's not my problem. Once more I'll point out that "mere mortals" do well against one another in the absence of pre-nerf Hurricane. The notion that you have to have exceptional slotting to deal with this one power clearly doesn't fly.

The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.

Sadly, that's not going to do you any good.

The devs saw a problem. They made changes. I agree that there were problems. You disagree, and some of your primary arguments are based around top-end PvP builds. Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.

I don't have to agree with that to observe and understand it. Hurricane was, to me, an obvious outlier. You disagree. I think the conditions under which you disagree are limited in special ways that contrive to make Hurricane less of an issue. So be it - such conditions exist. I don't agree that they make a useful baseline. It's apparent that the devs agree, at least on some level.

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what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...

sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.

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Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.

You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.

Additionally, not everyone in SC is 40 on the villain side, nor are all the heroes 50. Not everyone on either side is a pure PvP build. What if the Brute doesn't yet have six slots for his Rage?

Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".

And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.

[Stormbringer]

aw screw it...

was gonna let this go, but why stop now?

uberguy writes there are no ways to beat storm guys, contrary to what i've laid out:

So, lets break it down again.

*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.

--so we agree...

ranged damage works...

ranged mezzes work...

tp foe works...unless the storm has ID on him/her from a kin...although...if a kin is giving storm ID making him impossible to TP, what's to stop you from porting the kin? answer: nothing. unless there's another kin...and if there is, the storm isn't your problem...it's the 2 kins.

melee attacks with to-hit buffs DO IN FACT WORK...scrappers and tanks know this very well. i invite you to re-slot your attacks and to-hit buffs and enjoy the wonderful world of pvp...anything to stifle these premature cries to "nerf this!" and "nerf that!"

slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary

and pvp powers like DF, sonic cage, TK, force bubble...that people only take for pvp. those work too.

did i miss anything?

maybe.

but i think it's clear from just glancing at the incomplete list above that there's more than one way to beat a storm (as you suggested).

:eek:

[Night_Club]

I've been thinking all day about how to add to this thread. It finally came to me:

"But Dad always said our powers are nothing to be ashamed of, our powers made us special!"

"Everyone's special, Dash."

"Which is another way of saying noone is . . ."

[UberGuy]

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slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary

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I really just don't see this. Slowing or rooting would do virtually nothing to the Hurricane users the way I see them functioning in the open zones. This would mildly hinder the team. (Also, slows do nothing to them if they have Super Jump, though immobilizes would.) The tactical use of Hurricane I am used to is that it is used as a safe haven - a forward base. It is rarely a strong inconvenience if it is slowed down; it's often slow moving by nature.

[Khenti]

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Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous.

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I would just like to point out, as a player of a /Storm Controller, that I had to make many, many different choices for PvP than I did for PvE. I even re-slotted Hurricane once I finally got my hands on a respec for it.

Making allusions that any Storm toon can waltz into a zone, pop on Hurricane and mosey about as if having turned on a cheat code is fallacious. It’s true they have one power that can benefit equally from slotting in PvE and PvP, but there are dozens of powers out there that the same can be said of, especially personal or PBAoEs such as armors and aura-style debuffs, most especially if they’re auto-hit.

As for special, over-the-top builds, that’s exactly what’s needed to be a competitive force in a PvP zone. It’s unfair and it sucks, but that’s just how it works. Don’t claim I can bring my Empathy Defender into SC with impunity. No, things I never would have taken, such as Concealment, an extra travel power and Whirlwind was what helped keep me alive. I’d say that’s a pretty intense amount of change for a bit more survival. Don’t assume I have Tactics on every character I play, to stack with the Tactics of my team to spot a Stalker. That’s a special power which I would only take on a very few toons, were it not for the necessity of it in PvP.

In short, don’t claim that Hurricane was an “I-win” button just because it took the tiniest modicum of strategy to overcome it. That’s just alluding to laziness and self-centered tantrums because you couldn’t click an attack button over and over again to take down yet another helpless squishie.

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Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti – Lvl 20 Warshade
AkenAmenti – Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm – Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial – Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor

[UberGuy]

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In short, don’t claim that Hurricane was an “I-win” button just because it took the tiniest modicum of strategy to overcome it. That’s just alluding to laziness and self-centered tantrums because you couldn’t click an attack button over and over again to take down yet another helpless squishie.


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Make sure you read the entire line of my posts in this thread. They only go back a couple of days. Because you are advising me not to do something I never did.

I never claimed that, with one exception, I have met Stormers soling well in PvP.

I never claimed that I couldn't beat Hurricane. In fact, with help, I have done so, often.

What I have said is that Hurricane brought more to a team than anything else I have seen in the open PvP zones. That this one power was effective enough to drive the shape of the battlefield.

I claim that it had this capability even "just" slotted for PvE. Even just focusing on the toHit debuff, it had this potential.

That is all. I claim that its value was extraordinary compared to other single powers on the open PvP battlefield.

Edit: In particular, I find this offensive.

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Making allusions that any Storm toon can waltz into a zone, pop on Hurricane and mosey about as if having turned on a cheat code is fallacious.

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If you are going to set a tone in a post, I advise that you stick to the facts. I never made this preposterous claim or anything like it.

[Khenti]

Finding things offensive and/or insulting is a diety-given right. Finding text on a forum such indicates a bit of hypersensitivity. Perhaps you should step out for a bit. Arguments here can often find themselves stunningly heated for no particular reason and we wouldn’t want to be drawn into that.

So, Hurricane doesn’t offer a soloist an effective advantage, you’ve said. You’ve also said Hurricane isn’t an ability you can’t work around. What you’re saying is that it is your opinion that Hurricane brings more to a team than anything else, with no different slotting than it had outside of the zone.

Now here’s the pickle. It’s your opinion, but you keep ranting about facts. You can’t prove an opinion.

For example: In my opinion, you are falling into the same trap most unimaginative PvPers have concerning Hurricane. You see a big, flashy effect surrounding a team and let the panic of all the ranting ravers here on the forums strike fear into your heart. Instead of taking one of the many, many options available to you and confirmed as workable by you here in this thread, you refer to it being overpowered while ignoring the fact that it is only one equal piece of a well-organized team’s puzzle.

I think Clear Mind is more powerful. I think almost all of Energy Melee is more powerful. I think there are dozens of powers out there that bring just as much to a toon or a team as Hurricane ever could, the difference being just how visible the effect was and the fact that it makes some of the more effective squishie-killers stop and contemplate strategy for half a moment.

I suspect it won’t be long before Forcefield is brought under the spotlight.

I can’t prove my opinion, but it’s there nevertheless and you’re reading it right this moment. You can’t disprove my opinion any more than I can prove it, but there it rests. I, along with many others, don’t believe Hurricane was overpowered. You, along with many others, believe it was.

The result? Your voice won out and here we are. So you’re arguing, why?

If my tone upsets you, it’s doubtless because I’ve found one of my favorite abilities weakened due in large part to viewpoints like yours. PvP complaints about easily circumventable powers in a set that was long considered highly underperforming are disappointing, to say the least.

And an allusion isnt a claim. From what I've been reading, you've been doing a whole lot of alluding.

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Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti – Lvl 20 Warshade
AkenAmenti – Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm – Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial – Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor

[UberGuy]

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Finding things offensive and/or insulting is a diety-given right. Finding text on a forum such indicates a bit of hypersensitivity. Perhaps you should step out for a bit. Arguments here can often find themselves stunningly heated for no particular reason and we wouldn’t want to be drawn into that.

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Well, I find it perfectly reasonable to suspect ulterior motive when a poster attributes to me a highly contentious assertion that I did not make. Less than your words, I found the inferred intention offensive.

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So, Hurricane doesn’t offer a soloist an effective advantage, you’ve said. You’ve also said Hurricane isn’t an ability you can’t work around. What you’re saying is that it is your opinion that Hurricane brings more to a team than anything else, with no different slotting than it had outside of the zone.

Now here’s the pickle. It’s your opinion, but you keep ranting about facts. You can’t prove an opinion.

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Would you kindly quote where I have stated an opinion as a fact, in full context?

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For example: In my opinion, you are falling into the same trap most unimaginative PvPers have concerning Hurricane. You see a big, flashy effect surrounding a team and let the panic of all the ranting ravers here on the forums strike fear into your heart. Instead of taking one of the many, many options available to you and confirmed as workable by you here in this thread, you refer to it being overpowered while ignoring the fact that it is only one equal piece of a well-organized team’s puzzle.

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No, in fact I attribute exactly the reverse to you. As a user of the powerset you see someone attempting to make rational assertions about the utility level of the power and assume that I have joined a bandwagon of nerfherders.

I have not.

I simply believe I understand why this power was nerfed. I beleive, taking into account the successes I had against it an my full understanding that it was in no way invincible, that Hurricane was extraordinalrily powerful. That it was more effective than other powers available in the zone.

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I think Clear Mind is more powerful. I think almost all of Energy Melee is more powerful.

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Why? Your asserion means nothing if you don't even offer examples of why you think so. My opinions may be opinions, but I offered examples of how I formed them. Tossing around declarations is meaningless without some backing.

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I think there are dozens of powers out there that bring just as much to a toon or a team as Hurricane ever could, the difference being just how visible the effect was and the fact that it makes some of the more effective squishie-killers stop and contemplate strategy for half a moment.

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Nice hyperbolic and embedded attempt to disqualify my opinion as someone who did not contemplate strategy. I did. I consider the contemplation and coordination required to defeat a team taking even basic advantage of Hurricane more difficult than any other team combination I have seen fielded in SC.

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The result? Your voice won out and here we are. So you’re arguing, why?

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Honestlly? Because I'd like to see people like acknowledge that there could have been an issue. I shared my experiences and explained them in fair detail. I carefully avoided most hyperbolic description, and stuck to events as I encountered them. I offered it as evidence that there may be something to this. And when people (mainly Stormbringer) tried to dissasemble my points, I have tried to defend them in such a way as to maintain that they have potential validity.

[ QUOTE ]
If my tone upsets you, it’s doubtless because I’ve found one of my favorite abilities weakened due in large part to viewpoints like yours. PvP complaints about easily circumventable powers in a set that was long considered highly underperforming are disappointing, to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, I have commented on the boards about Hurricane's PvP performance exactly once in the past. My concern was with the toHit buff's duration only. And I share the annoyance of every player that has been nerfed in PvE for PvP balance. My personal opinion is that we have PvP to thank in large part for I5, ED, and supression. This is just another notch in its belt.

[ QUOTE ]
And an allusion isnt a claim. From what I've been reading, you've been doing a whole lot of alluding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see in any way how you can claim my argument has been by allusion. I have been very specific in my claims. The only way in which I have been general is in not naming other powers or powersets, but this is because I consider Storm Summoning's Hurricane to be a singular outlier in ability for one power to shape the battlefield.

[Stormbringer]

If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.

--maybe you're respectable, i dunno. seem a little catty to me. KIDDING! here's the deal...you can be a respectable member of the COX community and still have your numbers wrong. i'd rather go with hero planner numbers 'til you provide some evidence they're not working.

The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.

--well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.

--oh i've noticed. i submit, however, the devs might do better. listening to people who pvp might help them make better changes to the pvp element of the game. after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.

Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.

--where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy. you could consider maxing out some offense if you want to take 'em out. why? 'cuz pvp is a bit different than pve. for one thing, it's harder to hit enemies. so, if you want to hit enemies, consider doing something that would help...like slotting your powers appropriately. if you refuse to do so, please spare us the disservice of your nerfcalls.

You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.

--i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp. if you expect to be successful at pvp, i submit that you have to adapt to it. this may entail respeccing, it may entail re-slotting, it may entail chosing teams carefully. i would expect you to try and exhause all of these possibilities before crying for a nerf. the fact that you didn't do this simply indicates to me you're making a lot of noise about an issue you fail to completely understand. i'm just sayin'...that's the way it looks.

Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".

--again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.

And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.

--i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.

[Stormbringer]

that's all for tonight guys...

have a good weekend.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't disagree here. I'm not sure what a good "fix" was called for (if any!), but I have no conviction that this was it. I never got pinned in a corner with it myself except in a situation where the user had me dead-to-rights anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience. Certainly I might have more insight if I had a lot of experience with storm, but to claim I can't correctly identify the possiblity that it's "overpowered" in some way because I don't play it is simply false.

[ QUOTE ]
where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why you think I assume Hurricane is anything other than a defense power. I never claimed Hurricane was going to come kill me or my team. It's exactly its potent defense that I took issue with. It allowed a safe haven from which Heroes could strike and to which they could retreat. It goes back to that shield-wall analogy I made. You could form a team around Hurricane and create a defensive formation from which to launch attacks in great safety. The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.

A motley crew of heroes in that sort of formation was a tough fight. Typcially they would crumble under concerted assault, as the chaos in their ranks took attention off the stormer long enough to kill or disable them. A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.

[ QUOTE ]
i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.

[ QUOTE ]
again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully I addressed this above. No, Hurricane itself was not the problem. But the need to defeat other heroes who had a Hurricane to retreat to - that was the challenge I speak of.

[ QUOTE ]
i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll concede that this is possible. My opinion is formed by comparison of fields of play where Hurricane wasn't present with those where it was. And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.

[Stormbringer]

for chuckles, here are some unsolicited testimonials on the relative uberosity of hurricane...

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5269086&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]

oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]


Actually Kid, I kind of agree with you on some of this (I know you're amazed). Look, I knew a hurricane nerf had to be coming at some point, I've been around MMO's too long not to see it. Its not that I felt it was needed but I saw it coming. I feel this may be a bit too strong,l but then again nerfs tend to be (like some of your multitude of regen nerfs).

My problem is dealing with storm defenders, where many people have problems with storm controllers (I have both so I feel I can speak knowingly about them). The Devs really made some problems for themselves with the storm set. Its not a heal set like empathy, and its not a strict debuff set like dark or rad. Its not simply defense through bubbles like FF. Storm is in many ways the jack of all trades master of none set. And a lot of the way it defends is through positioning and controlling the battlefield. Hence why storm controllers tend to be more effective the defenders. This is the fatal flaw of the set and one that players have long recognized.

I've already said I don't really PvP. I've tried it but its never been my thing. I just don't have the time to really get good and in with the good teams to be able to truly compete. But really the storm defender has a massive amount of tools at his disposal when facing an enemy. But Hurricane is the most noticeable. Storm was designed to keep squishies safe from melee. Its why tanks and scrappers have had issues with us since day one and blasters have learned to love us.

So now that this defense is being taken away, what is the role of a stormer? We have slows (snow storm), assuming you stay in range. We have freezing rain to debuff, but once again you have to stand in the effect, which PvE has never done let alone PvP. We have thunder clap and lightning storm to detoggle you. Thunder clap was never used much as its range was less then hurricane, expect to see it more often now (although with detoggle changes who knows). We have gale for positioning, but t has horrible base accuracy. We have O2 which has a reasonable distance heal and can help resist status effects and end drain, but its not enough to keep someone dieing alive (especially for the end cost). We can offer some resists and stealth, but in the age of perception steamy mist doesn't do much for anyone. And finally we have tornado. A wild uncontrollable power that can be very nice, but if the stormer doesn't know how to use it its likely to get them killed instead. So where's this leave us? We had one thing we were really good at, and hence that's what you saw us do. Now we can do a lot, but none of it as well as another defender set.

Wow, this post rambled much more then I intended, my apologies. I guess I'm just voicing some frustrations. As I've said, based on testing my stormers will be fine. I'll adapt and keep moving. I've made stormers since before the game was released. I've been kicked from teams for being a stormer before ever getting to a mission to show what I can do. If that age come back I'm fine with it. I'll be sad because a lot of people will miss out on a great set, but I'll keep rolling along.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had some ideas about what to do with Hurricane, none of which would be acceptable to anyone who has the set. My first was make it a clickie with an end time and a recharge time similiar to other defense nerfs that put in effect. Yes, they suck(I have IH on my scrapper and it sucks.. I have a ton of powers that are now click to heal clicks... Repetitive much?? :) ) Instead of making it a click it could have also have been an extreme Endurance sapper which would mean you could turn it on, use it for a bit, but without a team that could buff your stamina you'd be drained pretty quick(I'm using this one because I keep being told by Stormies to get a team with this that and then other and then you could take out a Hurricane).

My most novel idea would be to make Hurricane into a power that you turn on, and makes you have very limited control of movement. Just like the hurricane pushes mobs mobs and PvP players away, have it sort of carry the Stormie away in a non controllable direction. This would mean that the Stormie would either have to turn it off to get his/her bearings again and allow the impenetrable Hurricane to most melee people to have a chance without a team(and then Stormies wouldn't need a team either to buff them because a massive drain endurance nerf, fair? :) ). This would also mean that anyone on a team with the Stormy using Hurricane would have to follow the Stormy and their uncontrollable Hurricane to stay behind the one power that is holding so many opponents at bay in the zone. This make it more fair for everyone to have a shot at the Stormy(because they'd have to turn it off to gain composure and not drift into a giant mob of NPCs mobs) and the others on the team would have to actually do more then hide behind someone with hurricane. They'd actually have to move and follow the Stormy which would allow for some of the stragglers to get picked off. I actually like this way the most because it would be fun to watch a Stormy on top of a building have to make the decision to turn off Hurricane to avoid falling off the buildings(meaning your whole team would have to either jump off with you to stay behind it or stay and fight) or turn it off and use other powers. I think this is the kind of "balance vision" the devs need to use with many powers instead of just black and white nerfs that make powers more or less click on and off. They need to make using the powers have more dynamic consequences along with possible positive results. People complain about Stalkers Hide. It's a power that is on, but as soon as it drops the Stalker has a giant bullseye on them and then can be torn apart. That's the way to make thing more interesting and fair for all the ATs in my opinion. Have an actual consequence for using powers in addition to the gains that can be made. I'm all for Uncontrollable Hurricane movement as a fair nerf. Then they can keep the power just the way it is strength wise.

[Bowghost]

If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?

I'm not trying to be snarky (at least not overly so), but PvP isn't the major thrust or the major draw for this game anyway. The majority of players are still primarily PvE players. The majority of Stormies are still primarily PvE players. And for a lot of people who picked the Storm set, at least from the Defender side, positioning-especially with Hurricane- was THE reason to take the set.

So their fun gets nerfed in the name of PvP balance? One of the primary reasons people reacted so strongly when PvP first entered the game was fear of PvE nerfs for PvP balance. And here we are, and it's not just a nerf of a power-it's a nerf of the reason people took the set.

I honestly think that the game over all is more healthy letting the PvP side game go somewhat unbalanced, rather than hurting the primary PvE game in an attempt to balance PvP. Just my opinion.

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are usually a couple reasons (and this is all spectulation based on past words and deeds from Devs)

-They wanted to keep the power changed in PvP only, but due to how the power is set up, it was unable to do so.

-They saw the change in PvP, but decided it should affect PvE as well (though they didn't mention this at all in the patch notes).

Basically, those are the reasons I think could have caused it to be a PvE change as well as a PvP change. I personally lean to the first because the second one isn't supported by the Patch Notes (which only mention PvP as a reason for the change). It has been previously stated that some powers, if changed for PvP effectiveness, must be altered in PvE as well. No matter how much they may wish otherwise, it may be in the code.

That's all pure player spectulation. I wish I actually knew those things, because that would mean that I work for Cryptic.

[Soyuz]

This seems like a good time to chime in with a couple of PM's I received from _Castle_.

On why the power was more effective against players than it was against mobs:

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the AI cheated. That's how it was able to escape. Basically, when it gets into a spot where it can't move, it cheats until it is in an open area again (roughly -- there are a bunch of variables in it, so it doesn't always happen.)

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically, the AI won't let itself be trapped, probably to stop mobs getting hung up on terrain. AI can be pretty thick sometimes.

On whether there's any fix in the works to make the power behave in a more similar manner in PvE and PvP:

[ QUOTE ]
No promises, but I've spent today looking for alternative fixes. Nothing that worked, mind you...but I am looking.

[/ QUOTE ]

So yes, they know they've hit the PvE game hard and are looking for ways to sort that out. No, they haven't found one yet - but at least they're looking at it.

Cheers,

~R~

[Midgardener]

Well that's something, at least. :)

[CommunistPenguin]

why cant they just give d players a short repel immunity, like they do with kb and holds? that way they can leave teh repel the same as it was, and players would no longer be able to trap other players.

[UberGuy]

Heh. That seems like such an obvious solution.

(Really. I'm not being sarcastic.)

I won't be surprised, though, if the repel thing wasn't the complete reason for the change. Without trying to make this a dig, we seem to get partial info about the reasons for these things much more often than not.

[IronYeti]

[ QUOTE ]
PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, first of all, this is entirely false. Let's try a thought experiment. Take (for example) the Fire Blast powerset. Now, decrease all damage its powers deal by a factor of 10. To "compensate", decrease all of its endurance costs by a factor of 10. Is it still "exactly the same strength as before"? No. Of course not. By the same argument, _Castle_ could say taking the power away was "exactly the same strength as before": it's zero times the power, and zero times the endurance cost. The fact is that Hurricane was cut in power - gutted, even. It's not a "tradeoff", it's just much weaker.

And the patch notes were misleading. I'm not happy with that either.

I tried using Hurricane tonight in the "stop 30 Fir Bolgs from entering the Door" mission. Several white-con minions just walked right by me, untouched by my constantly-on Hurricane. Others got far enough that by the time it pushed them, they were on the other side of me and it pushed them toward their goal. The repel tick is simply no longer fast enough to do what it's meant to. I appreciate that Hurricane also has range and accuracy debuffs... but I'm not playing a debuff powerset. I play slows and knockbacks for a reason: positional control. Please, restore Hurricane for PvE.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?

I'm not trying to be snarky (at least not overly so), but PvP isn't the major thrust or the major draw for this game anyway. The majority of players are still primarily PvE players. The majority of Stormies are still primarily PvE players. And for a lot of people who picked the Storm set, at least from the Defender side, positioning-especially with Hurricane- was THE reason to take the set.

So their fun gets nerfed in the name of PvP balance? One of the primary reasons people reacted so strongly when PvP first entered the game was fear of PvE nerfs for PvP balance. And here we are, and it's not just a nerf of a power-it's a nerf of the reason people took the set.

I honestly think that the game over all is more healthy letting the PvP side game go somewhat unbalanced, rather than hurting the primary PvE game in an attempt to balance PvP. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that there needs to be changes to the PvP version of a power, but not ALWAYS necessarily to the PvE version of a power. What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies. Maybe if the devs thought about ways to make things more challenging then giving into people complaining mobs are too hard, nerfing them and then making powers overpowered because of nerfs to mobs, then the wouldn't have to nerf our powers too much. That said though, in PvP, Hurricane is/was overpowered.. :)

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. I am sick of the lies about why powers are getting nerfed.

The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.

They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.

They are lying about it.

That really, really, really, pisses me off.

I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.

This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?

Devs -- it's the *lies* that piss people off so bad. Think about it.

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, first of all, this is entirely false.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the same thing, Yeti. The Repel effect, while pulsing at a slower timer, still pushes back enemies at EXACTLY the same rate as before, just not as continuous because it pulses slower.

The Repel effect of Hurricane IS the same strength. You think that Castle said the power is exactly the same strength. That's not it at all. Castle stated that the Repel is the same, though it ticks more slowly.

I don't have any issue with everything else you said, but calling Castle a lier because you didn't understand what he said, just rubs me the wrong way.

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.

They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.

They are lying about it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I love it when people put words into the Dev's mouths, just so they can call them liers. Yeah, you lying liers and the lies they tell! The Devs said they would try to not do it. They said if they could avoid doing it, they would.

[Bowghost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. I am sick of the lies about why powers are getting nerfed.

The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.

They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.

They are lying about it.

That really, really, really, pisses me off.

I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.

This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?

Devs -- it's the *lies* that piss people off so bad. Think about it.

FivefifteenA

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the quote everyone is referring to when they say "no PvE nerfs for PvP" is Here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=2756553&For um=All_Forums&Words=nerf&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=2748407&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=509&dater ange=1&newerval=3&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post2756553) , unless I'm mistaken. States didn't say they never would nerf PvE for PvP, he said they'd TRY not to.

Big difference.

What I'm saying, though, is that I really think in cases like this one where the PvE nerf is significant they SHOULDN'T touch PvE to protect PvP.

[Darkaj]

Well, I didn't see any post from the devs saying, "hey, we tried to come up with a way to nerf this power for PvP that would not affect PvE, and we couldn't, so we are nerfing the power for PvE too -- sorry about it, we know that Storm is already a very well-balanced set for PvE, but we think PvP is more important so just deal with it." At least that would have been honest.

But no -- what they said in the patch notes did not even *mention* PvE. It was like they thought they could slide that past us without us even noticing or something. That's just frikkin dishonest.

On a broader note, have all of these nerfs and game changes that were made for PvP really helped with the subscription base of the game? No one knows for sure, but it seems likely to me that any boost in the numbers playing the game has been from CoV, not PvP. When I go to the PvP zones to run missions there are usually less than a dozen people there, and usually almost all of those people are in missions.

FivefifteenA

[Iron_Specter]

This power did not require a pvp nerf even. It was good but far from overwhelming. It does not even rank in the top ten pvp powers. There are several powers that negate it already and dozens of ways to just avoid it. the range and accuracy debuffs were almost meaningless. anyone close enough to get hit with it did not need the range anyway and a couple yellows overcomethe debuff with room to spare. Not to metion these power does not belong toa high defense set. Most PVPer can hit right through it because the accuracy is so high to hit the well defended. The push is the main benefit. If they break it why bother. the power is part of a whole set and without it storm is under powered for defenders.

[Sepultura]

If CoH and CoV were closer in the way that they worked, aka: if villains had something resembling a blaster, then no hurricane wouldnt have needed a nerf. But as someone in here stated already Pre-nerf hurricane was a power with which you could almost certainly negate any melee person from ever hitting you.

Now I know that you will come back and say "Oh, but you can buy insp!" I highly doubt that the developers of this game meant to balance the game on inspiration alone. They want to give each AT the tools with which they needs to equalize the threat of another.

Now I dont have experience with this power in PvE so I cannot speak for those of you that are upset about its change in that realm, but I can say for sure that this was indeed needed for PvP.

Maybe its about time that the DeV's realize that there needs to be perhaps that powers literally revert to a different form when zoning into a pvp zone or arena match. If they could figure out a way to code it then perhaps we wouldnt need to ever sacrifice PvE for PvP.

But in this case Hurricane was so WIDELY misused that it got hit with the nerf bat. But I can tell you from a villain perspective what hasnt changed: stalkers still whiff on you, so you dont have to deal with that whole problem (unless you get mezzed) and it is still extremely difficult to hit you through that hurricane. We may get one through but the next will surely miss, hence we cant do enough damage to kill you, just enough to make you run off.

Now compared to before when you could let heroes camp inside hurricane thus giving every single AT the same benefit as you have, thus making the entire grp extremely hard to hit without any kind of negative associated with it, now you just have to learn to play smarter, such as every stalker has to play smarter now that placate is changed.

Theres a pattern to this whole nerf thing:

Excition - "omg this power is t3h ub4r!"
2
Misuse - "Haha you cant touch me n00b!"
2
Whine - "blah blah, he kills me all the time.... blah"
2
Nerf - "ZOmg what did we do?"


the cycle goes on further, but perhaps if people didnt abuse powers in the first place the dev's wouldnt have to go through and change things so much. Part of it is the fact that this game is a PvE game thatis trying to PvP - thus changes need to be made, the other part is quite simply the players fault (not everyone, but you know who you are).

[IronYeti]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not the same thing, Yeti. The Repel effect, while pulsing at a slower timer, still pushes back enemies at EXACTLY the same rate as before, just not as continuous because it pulses slower.

The Repel effect of Hurricane IS the same strength. You think that Castle said the power is exactly the same strength. That's not it at all. Castle stated that the Repel is the same, though it ticks more slowly.

I don't have any issue with everything else you said, but calling Castle a lier because you didn't understand what he said, just rubs me the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, I didn't think Castle was a liar, I thought he was gravely mistaken. I have yet to see a case of the developers lying to us, whatever anyone else might say. I think they just get caught up in a release schedule and don't give everything due thought.

Second, it's their job to post diligently as red-names. That includes making themselves understood through clear, unambiguous statements. I see now that there was an alternate interpretation of Castle's statement that makes more sense - but it's not my job to go digging for it. I'm going to react to what's said, and if I misinterpret someone (like you) can clear it up later. Besides, you don't know for sure which way Castle meant it. I might still be right.

[IronYeti]

[ QUOTE ]
The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd love it if that were true. The developers have a job to do. They do it the best they can. They tell is the guiding principles they're using, then go ahead and do what they have to do. If you read every explanation of "probably, we expect that mostly..." as a writ-in-stone promise, you're going to be disappointed. Not just with the CoH devs, but with most of life.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.

This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the patch notes say explicitly that this change was solely for PvP. It doesn't say that the change carries over to PvE... but it doesn't say it doesn't, all it says is the power changed. Since the power exists in PvE, we shouldn't be surprised that changing the power changes PvE. Furthermore, we have no idea how hard it would be for the devs to change Hurricane in PvP and not in PvE. That might be a lot of code. Would you rather have the developers put off all power fixes for several months while they code a new PvP/PvE distinction in their powers? Or have them make a few changes like this so massive bugs and exploits can be fixed?

The developers do a LOT for us. Try to recognize that there are tradeoffs in everything they do, and give them at least the slightest benefit of the doubt once in a while.

[Soyuz]

[ QUOTE ]
the cycle goes on further, but perhaps if people didnt abuse powers in the first place the dev's wouldnt have to go through and change things so much. Part of it is the fact that this game is a PvE game thatis trying to PvP - thus changes need to be made, the other part is quite simply the players fault (not everyone, but you know who you are).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is partly what ticks off the long term Stormers, the ones who've played the set since release, who have suffered through the difficulties in finding teams because "Storm causes scatter" or "Storm isn't a good healer" or "Storm doesn't have a rez" or "Storm doesn't have any good buffs". Then PvP comes along, suddenly you're perceived as a FOTM PvP min-maxer, then they nerf your set.

There have been plenty of other nerfs in this game which were blamed on PvP, but which were actually pretty ambiguous. This one, IMO anyway, isn't. If CoH was still PvE-only, I don't think Hurricane would have been changed, nor would everyone be whining about how overpowered it is. They didn't start doing that until the arena came along.

Cheers,

~R~

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the patch notes say explicitly that this change was solely for PvP. It doesn't say that the change carries over to PvE... but it doesn't say it doesn't, all it says is the power changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm -- the patch notes are supposed to tell us what the patch does. The patch notes in this case did not say a single freaking thing about Hurricane having its guts ripped out in PvE play. Is that honest? No. Is it straightforward? No.

I don't think you get it. The devs just ripped the heart out of a nice little set that was actually a bit on the gimped side for PvE but lots of people liked it because it was so fun. Now, because of PvP, which hardly anyone plays anyway, the Storm set has been pretty much destroyed. And the devs did not even have the honesty to put it in the patch notes !!!!!

Thanks, devs.

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

When you're done, can I have your stuff?

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
When you're done, can I have your stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure fanboy.

Y'know, the people who say that remind of me of little kids who hear a joke that isn't funny, but they think it is and they repeat it over and over until all the adults around are ready to strangle them. I guess that's the point.

Toddle off, little one.

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

*shrugs* Actually, it's because I find you have NOTHING to contribute, other then a basic BMW post. It really gets to the point where I see your name, and I know that what follows is basically nothing but insults, hyperbole, and the general inability (or lack of desire) to be helpful to your cause.

Basically, what I'm saying is you remind me of a spoiled child.

So toddle off, little one.

Basically, I've just contributed with exactly the same amount of information and "good posting" that you did with the last post. Generally, if you find yourself just attacking people with your posts, you're not exactly doing anything helpful. Even if our opinions differ, there are better ways to share it then with such gratuitous insults, you know?

[prof_chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
When you're done, can I have your stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah I'm just respeccing out of the power, not dropping the character

[Mr_Right]

Oh I dunno, the power is still useful as a Debuffer. It's still saved my life more then a few times.

Besides, I personally am going to hope they find a way to "fix" it for PvE. ;) I'm an optimist! If nothing else, I would probably recommend holding onto it (and the Freespec). Atleast for a while, perhaps until a Red Name conferms there's nothing else that can be done for it (through PM to _Castle_ if needed).

[CommunistPenguin]

so i tested it out, and while the power istn completely gutted, i found that the less repel was more likely to create scatter than the old repel. Basically the old repel was strong, so they all went in one direction more or less. THe new repel is weak, so some get pushed, some dont, some run at you, some dont, etc.

[Iron_Specter]

Stalkers are where they need to aim the nerf bat. If they were eliminated as the FOTM villain in PVP. They could stop nerfing every power that works against them. You might even see some of the other villain achtypes on accaasion.

BTW corruptors are the villain answer to basters and from what I have seen they make short work of stormies and are a good challenge for blasters. Brutes vs Tanks, scrappers vs stalkers, corruptors vs blasters. MM vs defenders, dominator vs controller. It is all a pretty good match up until the last one. They should not try to balance the fact that doms suck in pvp by constantly buffing stalkers for the hero VS villain wars. Leave the stormies alone.

I have not seen the abuses you describe. I always beat stormies with my scrapper and controller. Their damage is low and controls soft. Admittedly I don't have a villain high enough to compete. Only stalkers and bad players seem to have problems with them.

[Mr_Right]

Yeah, that's what I've found as well. Defenders will have it rough, except as a Debuffer. Controllers can have an easier time, because of the ability to hold / immoblize.

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
*shrugs* Actually, it's because I find you have NOTHING to contribute, other then a basic BMW post. It really gets to the point where I see your name, and I know that what follows is basically nothing but insults, hyperbole, and the general inability (or lack of desire) to be helpful to your cause.

Basically, what I'm saying is you remind me of a spoiled child.

So toddle off, little one.

Basically, I've just contributed with exactly the same amount of information and "good posting" that you did with the last post. Generally, if you find yourself just attacking people with your posts, you're not exactly doing anything helpful. Even if our opinions differ, there are better ways to share it then with such gratuitous insults, you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm sorry that you felt it was necessary to attack me just because I was expressing an opinion that differs from yours. And it's always ironic when someone makes a post that is full of attacks while pretending to take the high ground. But, whatever.

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

Actually, I was using the irony as a "teaching tool". You know, so you can see it as well from the flip side? It is a shame you didn't see my post of "Can I have your stuff" as lighthearted (as it was intended), but as an attack.

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I was using the irony as a "teaching tool". You know, so you can see it as well from the flip side? It is a shame you didn't see my post of "Can I have your stuff" as lighthearted (as it was intended), but as an attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the most arrogant statement I have seen in a long time. Why do you presume you have anything to teach anyone? You act like you're 12 years old and you're very rude. I suggest you learn some manners before you try to teach anyone anything.

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

It's not about being arrogant, it's about being humble. Everyone has things to learn.

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
That is the most arrogant statement I have seen in a long time. Why do you presume you have anything to teach anyone? You act like you're 12 years old and you're very rude. I suggest you learn some manners before you try to teach anyone anything.

FivefifteenA

[/ QUOTE ]

at least in theory we all teach each other. compliments and insults often inform us of what is acceptable in a given social setting.

not that i particularly care about your guys argument, but it is kinda off topic.

So lets recap:

most people agree that storm didnt need or deserve this nerf for PVE

PVP is a crap shoot of the people who think it should be nerfed and those who dont think it should be nerfed.

So if everyone(or nearly so) agrees that pve should have been left alone, lets think of ways to solve the specific problem of pinning a player to the wall WITHOUT affecting pve.

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not about being arrogant, it's about being humble. Everyone has things to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, and you're going to teach them huh, savior of the world? Goodness, you started out with a "can I have your stuff" post and have now turned into freaking Gandhi.

Hmmm -- let me guess -- the child went to bed and now the older brother is on the comp?

FivefifteenA

[Mr_Right]

[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?

[Mr_Right]

No, as I said earlier, the "Can I have your stuff" was in jest. Though I'll tell you what, if you want to keep the pissing contest going, feel free to PM.

[Darkaj]

[ QUOTE ]
So if everyone(or nearly so) agrees that pve should have been left alone, lets think of ways to solve the specific problem of pinning a player to the wall WITHOUT affecting pve.

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they could take the time to code it so that PvE is not affected at all.

Maybe there is some reason why this is impossible or not practical. If so, it would be nice for the devs to say "we tried to make this a PvP only change but it is not possible because (reason)." That would go a long way toward making people feel better about this, I think. The way it is now, with the fact that they didn't even bother to mention PvE in the patch notes, it seems like they didn't even care enough to try to code it so PvE would be uanffected.

FivefifteenA

[Overboard]

[ QUOTE ]
so i tested it out, and while the power istn completely gutted, i found that the less repel was more likely to create scatter than the old repel. Basically the old repel was strong, so they all went in one direction more or less. THe new repel is weak, so some get pushed, some dont, some run at you, some dont, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only that, but the new Hurricane is far less effective at countering the scatter from Freezing Rain. (Actually, I'm being too nice, its now completely ineffective in that regard.) Thats a significantly negative impact on PvE Storm Defenders.

The last PM info from Castle, would seem to indicate that they appreciate the impacts. But, if the goal is to 'remove positioning' from a debuff set, then they need to rework the set to eliminate the scatter. I'm certainly not anxious to see changes on that scale.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:

YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.

you need to adapt.

you simply refuse to do so.

instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.

i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.

[Sailboat]

CommunistPenguin wrote:

[ QUOTE ]

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.

Sailboat

[Stormbringer]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience.

--you don't have to be an expert to understand whether or not a change to this power is appropriate. you do need to understand the power and it's limitations before decrying it as unbalanced. the reason i'm taking the time to post here is because i believe a fair number of people do not understand this power and believe it (and it alone) is the reason for their lack of success in pvp vs. storms. i submit there's a lot more too it than hurricane.

The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.

--ironically the formation you describe is one of the worst uses of a team and the synergies that exist between their sets. this formation is easilly demolished by a smart team. how? tp foe. you can selectively remove one memeber of the "turtling" team and gang up on him/her. then wash, rinse and repeat. i suggest tping the kin if they have one. otherwise they'll be providing ID to the rest of the team and you won't be able to tp 'em. don't like that idea? here's another: aoes. nothing works better on a lame turtling opponant than powers like snowstorm, freezing rain (sleet), ice slick, etc. after a couple of slows are stacked on the team, they won't wanna be so close to each other anymore. don't like that idea? here's another: nuke 'em. yup. sacrifice one or two buffed corrupters and send 'em in for the nuke. the result? one dead turtle. seriously, this formation is so limited in what it can do, that it's almost like tee ball. here's the ball, just sitting there stupidlly right in front of you. just begging for you to blast it as hard as you can. so, next time you see a turtle, organize your team and tee off.

A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.

--a well organized team (with the right ATs and sets, skilled players and a system of communication) is always going to be very hard to beat. i know. i've lost to a number of them. when it happens, i sit around and think about it (i'm weird like that). i try to imagine what i could have done differently. i ask myself how i can improve my build or tactics. i have yet to request a powerset be nerfed, however. not saying you are, mind you. just that i know some people are requesting that or have been requesting that. and, in all honesty, i think those requests are based largely on a very limited understanding of pvp dynamics.

I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.

--there are some powers in the game that are a pain in the butt, i'll give you that. phase shift, PFF, DF, sonic cages, dispersion and force bubbles, TK, hurricane, clear mind, speed boost, the energy manipulation secondary, ice blasts...these are all effective powers. i strongly urge anyone who pvps to pay close attention to how these powers, when used well, affect the balance of the game. they do affect it, but understanding how and why they effect it is a huge part of taking your pvp game to the next level. at the very least, understanding these powers and how they can be utilized against you, will help you choose your team's targets when fighting in siren's or wherever else you happen to be.

And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.

--sure, i've seen this happen. but the hurricane was only part of the equation. i'm willing to bet that if the hurricane appeared as successful as you say, it was because of a number of other factors that include 1) someone on the team who can heal the storm guy/gal, 2) someone on the team who can provide the storm guy/gal with mez protection, 3) someone on the team who is capable to doing significant damage (to bring you bad guys down). if any one of these three other elements were not present, the perception of the storm's effectiveness would be greatly diminished. yeah, hurricane would still be a pain in the butt if you let it hit you, but it would primarily just be a defensive annoyance.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?

[/ QUOTE ]

raises an interesting question, i guess...

how long is too long to be trapped in a corner?

30 seconds?

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
CommunistPenguin wrote:

[ QUOTE ]

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.

Sailboat

[/ QUOTE ]

and that answers the interesting question.

bah!

the question was far more interesting than the answer.

:confused:

[UberGuy]

Stormbringer,

Really, I do understand the things you're pointing out. Maybe not in the same detail you might from more extensive PvP planning and analysis, but I really do get that the Hurricane alone didn't come along and win the battle for the heroes. They had to make good use of it. They had to be smart or at least not stupid.

All I'm trying to say is that I thing the addition of the Hurricane gave them something to work with that was, IMO, more sweeping in impact than even somthing like an empath. (Who trust me, I know full well can be a wicked thing and makes a primary target on the battlefield). It's an opinion I think is well formed, but I acknowledge it is an opinion.

Last night, a controller came into SC. She (well, at least it was a female character) was Ice/Storm. She had decided not to use Hurricane in PvP because she felt people had more fun if she didn't. I don't want to debate the merits of that decision - it's just background for what I'm about to say next.

Just with her holds, debuffs, heals and liberal use of Diciplines/Break Frees (to keep from being cancelled by other holders), she had a strong effect on the battlefield. With buddies around looking out for her, she was reasonably hard to kill. And all that was without Hurricane. If she'd been using it, I do think it could have driven the villain players away, because the villains in the zone didn't have the tools one can use to surgically nullify her. Specifically, for whatever reason TP foe isn't real common. Heck, it seems less common now on both sides of open PvP. I used to get tele-ganked quite a lot.

Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you at this point. I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint. You have a very analytical view, and in particular you are coming from the perspective that "we" (the villains) should always bring the tools needed to best counter the hero powers. That makes a ton of sense when building a competition team for something like a base raid or an arena match. I'm coming from a holistic perspective based on the more random association of open PvP, where I might enter with one or two SG-mates and just make do with whoever else is in the zone. It's in that latter setting that things like Hurricane seem so powerful.

We'll see. I'm hopeful that the devs can do somthing to the power that's less distasteful to its users and fans. PvP != PvE!

[Overboard]

[ QUOTE ]
CommunistPenguin wrote:

[ QUOTE ]

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.

Sailboat

[/ QUOTE ]

When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...

[Sockem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?

[/ QUOTE ]

raises an interesting question, i guess...

how long is too long to be trapped in a corner?

30 seconds?

[/ QUOTE ]

The last time I was TP'd into a corner with a Stormer I was on my MA/SR scrapper. When I saw the TP Foe animation I hit Elude. After a few seconds the stormer laughed at me for using Elude and told me he was going to keep me pinned for 3 minutes (thats how long Elude lasts). 2 minutes of trying to escape, trying to joust through, and just hitting every button I had access to... I gave up and simply hit Menu/Quit/Log Off.

When I logged back in they were still laughing. When I said maybe Hurricane should have a 3 min duration and 1000 sec recharge, they didn't understand what I was trying to say. This is what the devs were aiming for. Pinning players in a corner and being able to go AFK, come back, and they're still there was a concern.

(This is just an example of what the devs were trying to fix. I personally don't like the hurricane change.)

[Slodeine]

[ QUOTE ]
When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...

[/ QUOTE ]

It is entirely possible to change power values based on PVP or PVE. In response to a Defender Issues Post (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4675148&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1), _Castle_ stated:

[ QUOTE ]

* PvP: Darkest Night is debuffing 50% of base damage, as opposed to the 37.5% it debuffs in PvE.

[ QUOTE ]

Yep. Handy, no? In other words, by design.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow, Darkest Night was changed so that its base -DAM debuff value depended on whether you were in PVP or PVE. The same should be possible for other powers. I imagine that they're reluctant to do this extensively because it is difficult to inform players that their powers will function differently in PvE and PvP. Forumgoers will know of the change and be happier that PVP changes don't affect PVE, but the large majority of the player base won't know why the effectiveness of their powers changes from PVP to PVE.

I'd still prefer that the Devs keep separate values for PVP and PVE and add a small addendum to the power description of all powers whose effectiveness varies, saying "This effect is stronger/weaker against villains/heroes." I don't see any problem with this solution, and given that the Devs have changed power values between PVP and PVE at least once (Darkest Night) without informing anybody, I don't think they should have a problem with it either.

EDITED

[Shadow_Stone]

Hurricane should not be changed at all with the exception of increasing its endurance cost as was orginaly decided upon.

Geography is, and should be an important part of any tactical battle just as LOS is. If Hurricane is nerfed so should holds. Both do the same thing essentialy.

There are numerous ways to counter Hurricane, it is not all that uber of a power. A hold can trap you while you are killed more easily than trapping someone against a wall or corner. That sounds like good tactics to me.

If anything the reason it should be changed is for PvE since the mobs are often stupid enough to run into rather than avoid it. Even then, that is a bad AI design problem, not anything really wrong with the power.

Storm Defenders have no self heal, or defense against ranged attackers and because of that they get some defense against melee. If this change goes forward the powerset needs to be rebalanced and 02 boost needs to be made self targetable, or we need to have our range defense increased.

[Midgardener]

[ QUOTE ]
If anything the reason it should be changed is for PvE since the mobs are often stupid enough to run into rather than avoid it. Even then, that is a bad AI design problem, not anything really wrong with the power.

[/ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong, but I think this is the -perception in action. Basically, they can't see you very well so they wander closer for a better look. If so, this is what is keeping the power bearable right now in PvE.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
I will go out on a limb and say this is a purely PvP problem yet it will now affect my PvE gameplay and that is unacceptable. Now I may add myself to the growing minority list of players saying "Thank god I already got my [insert AT] to level 50" list.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sums this thread up nicely.

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CommunistPenguin wrote:

[ QUOTE ]

My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.

Sailboat

[/ QUOTE ]

When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally i would prefer they remove the repel from the pvp version rather than mess with the pulse time. After all, if players can eaily get thoguh the repel, whats the pint of it being there? Just remove it and leave the pve repel as it used to be.

[Starfox_NA]

CommunistPenguin wrote:

[ QUOTE ]


I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.

[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

I hope the debate here can help convince Castle that this is not the way players want iot to work. Especially not PvE players. The PvP aspect of CoX simply isn't important enought to merit such a big change.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
Stormbringer,

Really, I do understand the things you're pointing out. Maybe not in the same detail you might from more extensive PvP planning and analysis, but I really do get that the Hurricane alone didn't come along and win the battle for the heroes. They had to make good use of it. They had to be smart or at least not stupid.

All I'm trying to say is that I thing the addition of the Hurricane gave them something to work with that was, IMO, more sweeping in impact than even somthing like an empath. (Who trust me, I know full well can be a wicked thing and makes a primary target on the battlefield). It's an opinion I think is well formed, but I acknowledge it is an opinion.

Last night, a controller came into SC. She (well, at least it was a female character) was Ice/Storm. She had decided not to use Hurricane in PvP because she felt people had more fun if she didn't. I don't want to debate the merits of that decision - it's just background for what I'm about to say next.

Just with her holds, debuffs, heals and liberal use of Diciplines/Break Frees (to keep from being cancelled by other holders), she had a strong effect on the battlefield. With buddies around looking out for her, she was reasonably hard to kill. And all that was without Hurricane. If she'd been using it, I do think it could have driven the villain players away, because the villains in the zone didn't have the tools one can use to surgically nullify her. Specifically, for whatever reason TP foe isn't real common. Heck, it seems less common now on both sides of open PvP. I used to get tele-ganked quite a lot.

Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you at this point. I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint. You have a very analytical view, and in particular you are coming from the perspective that "we" (the villains) should always bring the tools needed to best counter the hero powers. That makes a ton of sense when building a competition team for something like a base raid or an arena match. I'm coming from a holistic perspective based on the more random association of open PvP, where I might enter with one or two SG-mates and just make do with whoever else is in the zone. It's in that latter setting that things like Hurricane seem so powerful.

We'll see. I'm hopeful that the devs can do somthing to the power that's less distasteful to its users and fans. PvP != PvE!

[/ QUOTE ]

i do think the villains need more tools, uberguy.

i'm not real impressed with the selection of epic powers for villains at this point, but i'll hold out judgment on these 'til they're implemented.

for my part i'd like to see heroes and villains have access to the same sets.

and, if people were abusing hurricane in pvp base raids to the extent a fix was needed, i'd have liked to see the devs fix that and only that. my preferred solution would have been a 30 second maximum before a repel resistance kicks in...or some variation on that. i think the solution they implemented was not quite right. yes, it may have corrected the problem the devs set out to fix, but it also opened storm guys and gals to blaster melee attacks which happen to be devastating in pvp and compromise my effectiveness on a team. that is my one true lament about this supposed fix.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]

Personally i would prefer they remove the repel from the pvp version rather than mess with the pulse time. After all, if players can eaily get thoguh the repel, whats the pint of it being there? Just remove it and leave the pve repel as it used to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a bad idea at all. Most players couldn't care less how it works in PvP, and this lets us keep it for PvE. Actually, a repel-less Hurrican would not be useless in PvE either, and might be better than one with a borked repel; it would pull less aggro and be a viable always-on power. But if the PvE version is to keep repel, the repel needs to be reliable.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:

YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.

you need to adapt.

you simply refuse to do so.

instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.

i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude. I'm not the only one that says it needed to be nerfed. The devs did too. Not that the devs are always right, not that I'm always right, but on this one it's overly obvious that something needed to be done to Hurricane in PvP. Adapting should not involve having to do a multitude of things of things to take out a single power. They could have nerfed hurricane a hell of a lot more, but they didn't (yet). Now Stormies will have to rely on multiple powers a bit more then besides one. That's fair adaption. The others ATs do it.

[ESTorm]

I agree storm was never overpowered. It was always balanced by the fact that it was agro crazy with certain powers. It is just a lot of eye candy so it just looks over powered.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

hurricane was never overpowered.

there were and are plenty of counters for it.

the reason it got nerfed is because it's a debuff power and inexperienced players are more inclined to complain about a debuff power 'cuz it affects their toons negatively. notice how few people complain about clear mind or clarity--they're buffs.

it spooks me a bit to see this happening, but i think the devs will continue to nerf debuff powers in the interest of an ill-formed notion of balance until this phenomenon becomes clear to them.

hurricane was never unbalanced in pvp. at least not when compared to powers like sonic cage, detention field, clear mind, clarity...

the cries against it were unjustified.

the nerf was inappropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

I am all for a second set of game rules in PVP zones and leave PVE to have their own rules. The majority of the players are PVE why punish the majority for the simple minded squeaky wheel minority? The devs just seem to love to piss people off when there are better solutions if they use their heads.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".

[/ QUOTE ]

:)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please understand that you have my full and complete understanding about the annoyance of PvP-driven changes affecting PvE.

However, I'm a little surprised that anyone is taken off guard by this. There have not been any PvP-only power changes in quite some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

Actually that astatement was made about PVP would not affect PVE game play. Of course some of the most annoying changes were made because of PVP. I say have one set of game rules in PVP zones and another in PVE zones. Make everyone happy instead of pissing off the majority of the players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd love it if that were true. The developers have a job to do. They do it the best they can. They tell is the guiding principles they're using, then go ahead and do what they have to do. If you read every explanation of "probably, we expect that mostly..." as a writ-in-stone promise, you're going to be disappointed. Not just with the CoH devs, but with most of life.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.

This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the patch notes say explicitly that this change was solely for PvP. It doesn't say that the change carries over to PvE... but it doesn't say it doesn't, all it says is the power changed. Since the power exists in PvE, we shouldn't be surprised that changing the power changes PvE. Furthermore, we have no idea how hard it would be for the devs to change Hurricane in PvP and not in PvE. That might be a lot of code. Would you rather have the developers put off all power fixes for several months while they code a new PvP/PvE distinction in their powers? Or have them make a few changes like this so massive bugs and exploits can be fixed?

The developers do a LOT for us. Try to recognize that there are tradeoffs in everything they do, and give them at least the slightest benefit of the doubt once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

When devs nerf a power to the point people want to quit or just give up on the powerset they need to start thinking of more intelligent solutions. They just love to chase away their customers. Good thing this isn't a bricks and mortar store instead of an MMO. They would have gone bankrupt a long tima ago the way they alienate their customers.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you're done, can I have your stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah I'm just respeccing out of the power, not dropping the character

[/ QUOTE ]

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...

so...no epics.

so...no storms with mez protection.

well then...

did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.

I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:

YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.

you need to adapt.

you simply refuse to do so.

instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.

i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude. I'm not the only one that says it needed to be nerfed. The devs did too. Not that the devs are always right, not that I'm always right, but on this one it's overly obvious that something needed to be done to Hurricane in PvP. Adapting should not involve having to do a multitude of things of things to take out a single power. They could have nerfed hurricane a hell of a lot more, but they didn't (yet). Now Stormies will have to rely on multiple powers a bit more then besides one. That's fair adaption. The others ATs do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[Broomhilda]

You know I don’t like the fact that hurricane is being nerfed because of PvP, but I am not surprised. The only real way it will affect me is I most likely wont be taking it with my ice/storm now because all I was getting it for was the KB. The debuff wasn’t even a thought really because my build is designed to stop groups from being able to attack not debuff them so the cant hit. So it goes into the list of what I call useless powers, that being defined as powers dose an effect that can be done more effectively by another power. Guess the extra slot goes to Gale.

Now what dose/has worried me is that the path they have chosen. Now every issue is a big "O I wonder what they are going to nerf next" and even the new powers are "O that wont last long before it is nerfed". There has been very poor use of pre existing zones i.e. danger zones (For evidence I give hollows compared to every other danger zone. I mean how long have people been asking for a TF for the ship in crash site?). And the general attitude of the MMO creators right now of "it’s our game and those that play have no rights but to pay, shut up, and play."(That is a real quote or close to from a dev from a major MMO in an article about MMOs in CGW and it was agreed upon by almost everyone interviewed). I am not saying that this is the general attitude of Cryptic but I do see how it has creped in.

Personally I feel (and I know feel is subjective) that the turmoil that Joe Shmoe is reading on these boards is costing them. The casual player that they are so fond of saying they are catering to is starting to get tired of having to rebuild there toon every few months or less. A lot of the new people I have played with are here because of friend and they are leaving, so now they are planning on leaving too. And you know every single person that I have played with and that has left has never truly been because of a nerf to a power (a couple have) but most have sited lack of content. So maybe just maybe next issue (we all knew this was going to be a CoV issue) it will be the start of all content issues. And we can start making more people happy and they will start staying. Personally, from past trends I don’t see this happening but I will hope for the best.

I like many that others I have talked to are waiting for I8 to see what the devs do now that they have there “balanced vision” and there “no more major nerfs we have everything just about were we want it” Basically I guess its like this Dev team, more content (using zone you have, making more non PvP zones, and new powers/AT’s, ect..) and I stay, keep spending all your time trying to figure out how to nerf powers and I and many others go very loudly into that good night. I am not calling devs out, giving ultimatums, or anything like that. What I am trying to tell you is, you have nerfed a lot of fun out of the game and its time to start putting a lot more fun back in even if it isn’t totally balance. Its been 2 years now and i feel like i have been Beta testing for you for that time instead of playing a finished evolving game. And im sry but i starting to feel like you should pay me. :(

Sry to all for long windedness of this post but this nerf is a small part of a larger problem.

Side note: Storm this post isn’t directed at you :), you just were the last post in the thread.

[PeteX]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally i would prefer they remove the repel from the pvp version rather than mess with the pulse time. After all, if players can eaily get thoguh the repel, whats the pint of it being there? Just remove it and leave the pve repel as it used to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. The repel really isn't much in PvP now, so might as well just get rid of it altogether and return the PvE hurricane to what it was (you know, useful for defenders).

Gutting Storm Summoning in PvE is unacceptable. :mad:

[Night_Club]

WARNING: quite possibly my first CoH Forums rant. Ignore if you are so inclined.

Please add me to the list of people who could care less about PvP. Been there, done that enough to know for certain that it's not why I play this game. Fun now and then, but that's not where it's at for me really. If I cared about PvP at all I'd have already posted a ton of rants about how "unfair" force bubble or energy melee stuns, or <insert whatever power you like here> are. But I haven't. I mean complaining about being one-shotted by an assassin strike? Come on! That's why they're called "assassins." Just like hurricanes are called hurricanes for a reason too ...

So to see a PvP change take such a huge chunk of the fun of my playing my PvE-99.7%-of-the-time Storm Defender (who's still far from 50, which is about the only time I PvP with a character, after 50) rely honks me off.

I had just used my 34+ respec to switch from Flight to Teleport so that I could Mist up to a big group of mobs, cast Freezing Rain, shoot Tenebrous Tentacles, summon a Lightning Storm, teleport to the other side of the group, and push them back into the Storm. Good times! I was having a ball with that combo! Trapping a boss in a corner and throwing a tornado at him is good clean fun too! Bully the bully: what could be more super-heroic than that?

There's a reason why my top 4 characters are a tank, a scrapper who likes to tank, a storm defender who also likes to tank, and an MM: it's how I have fun! I do not appreciate PvP changes that severely alter my ability to have fun in PvE.

I haven't played since release without noticing a few things, and since you've indulged me thus far, I'll share some more thoughts ...

The way I see it, MMORPG PvP is just like collectible card gaming (you know, Magic and everything since): people who don't use a particular power/card/combo will always whine about said power/card/combo being overpowered. It doesn't matter that there are a number of ways to beat it. People are people, and over-competitive people don't like to lose ... ever. When they do lose, it's not their fault, it's always somebody else's. It has to be that their opponent used a cheap tactic or got lucky or whatever.

How do I know this? Because I've been there. I'm an overly competitive person myself. I'm playing this game (and largely avoiding PvP) because of it. There was a time when I was a regionally ranked player in a popular-at-the-time collectible card game. I picked the game up quicker than most, got good, won a lot, and kept winning. When I did lose, I told myself that it was because of cheap-tactic A or over-powered-combo B, or whatever. What's funny is that I would swear to avoid using said tactic/combo myself (even though I had the cards to do it) and instead vowed to find a way to beat it.

That's just how I dealt with it. I never once posted a nerf-this rant. It didn't matter how many other people were crying nerf, I considered it my job to figure out how to beat it. My job, not the makers of the game. But that was just me.

A funny thing about PvPing, collectible card gaming, and many other competitions that are completely irrelevent to the real world is that the people who don't get good and win a lot eventually quit and move onto something else, leaving just the "good" players to beat up on each other until the game dies.

To close, please don't kill my beloved Hurricane, at least in PvE. Do what you like with powers in PvP. PvP will never be 100% fair, and even if it was 100% fair, people would still say it wasn't, because in most any competition, there is a loser, and more often than not, the loser does not enjoy losing. This of course leaves only winners who then create more losers, and so on, until there is noone left. "There can be only one" may work for Highlander, but it makes for a lousy player base. I agree with an ealier poster: the future of this game lies not in PvP, but in new content, powersets, rewards, events and, in short, continuing to feel super. And one of my favorite ways to feel super in this game is to push the bad guys around, both figuratively, and in the case of my stormer, literally.

Thanks for your time.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[Shadow_Stone]

So Kidqwik what under level 25 power allows a defender to drop a tanks/scrapper/brutes toggle defensive power other than brawl? In fact the only toggle dropeers available to Storm Defenders are Thunder Clap, which has a very long animation time and only affects minions (which many do not take for that reason) and Lightning Cloud which can be avoided and is largely random.

It is ok for tanks to be essentialy immortal against a defender, but a defender should not have a defense against tanks? Yea I see where you are coming from.

Using buildings and corners tacticaly is unfair in your opinion, I guess you want to hose LOS to. Tactical considerations should be taken away from player decisions it seems. I am sure the blaster types would like that!

The game is clearly not fair because an entire group of players of melee only types were styimed by a power designed to protect against melee damage. What an injustice!! Rather than picking up a controler/dominator or any other class that has ranged damage you infer that melee players should be totaly protected from damage and be able to hit and kill anyone. Yea I see where you are coming from.

Storm Defenders were given Hurricane because they are already have weak to nonexistant defense against ranged attacks, especialy things with status effects like mez, slows, holds, and roots. They said at least they could have some defense against melee at a huge endurance cost. But you want to take that away too....

How nice that you want to be uber too. I have played a scrapper too btw and I was smart enough not let myself get pinned by a hurricane with the exception of teleport foe. That was kinda abusive, and annoying but no more annoying than being killed while I was held.

If any power is abusive in PvP it is teleport foe. Yet it remains.

I want to know why the devs feel its ok to totaly nerf storm defense which was already quite weak and give nothing in compensation?

Haven't storm defenders been screwed enough already? Snow Storm works better for controllers, Tornado does a better job disorienting for controllers, To hit debuffs have been nerfed hard with the schedule change on enhancements, in fact the only powers that work better for Storm Defenders than controllers is Steamy Mist and 02, and 02 is a serious ghetto heal, better than nothing.

[KidQwik]

Hurricane was nerfed to make it less abusive. It still works sorta like all the other powers that were still nerfed still work sorta. Join the club. It could have been wacked a lot harder and it still may given the way the devs work. Now Stormies can use more then one power in PvP like every AT should HAVE to do.

[Night_Club]

To Kidquik: did you actually read all of Stone's post? Your response leaves an awful lot of his points uncontested ...

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, i gotta see this dream team you're pvping with.

they sound awesome.

you mean to tell me...

1) no one on the team could kite the hurricane?
2) no one on the team had repel resistance?
3) no one on the team had a ranged attack capable of overcoming the storm's inherent healing rate?
4) no one on the team had a ranged mez?
5) no one on the team thought to buy a ranged mez?
6) no one on the team had tp foe?
7) no one on the team had sonic cage or detention field?
8) no one on the team had dispestion bubble or TK or force bolt or any other positioning power that could move the storm and render his teammates vulnerable?
9) no one on the team had any to-hit buffs that could break the hurricane debuff?

i'm sorry.

i just don't believe you.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
So Kidqwik what under level 25 power allows a defender to drop a tanks/scrapper/brutes toggle defensive power other than brawl? In fact the only toggle dropeers available to Storm Defenders are Thunder Clap, which has a very long animation time and only affects minions (which many do not take for that reason) and Lightning Cloud which can be avoided and is largely random.

It is ok for tanks to be essentialy immortal against a defender, but a defender should not have a defense against tanks? Yea I see where you are coming from.

Using buildings and corners tacticaly is unfair in your opinion, I guess you want to hose LOS to. Tactical considerations should be taken away from player decisions it seems. I am sure the blaster types would like that!

The game is clearly not fair because an entire group of players of melee only types were styimed by a power designed to protect against melee damage. What an injustice!! Rather than picking up a controler/dominator or any other class that has ranged damage you infer that melee players should be totaly protected from damage and be able to hit and kill anyone. Yea I see where you are coming from.

Storm Defenders were given Hurricane because they are already have weak to nonexistant defense against ranged attacks, especialy things with status effects like mez, slows, holds, and roots. They said at least they could have some defense against melee at a huge endurance cost. But you want to take that away too....

How nice that you want to be uber too. I have played a scrapper too btw and I was smart enough not let myself get pinned by a hurricane with the exception of teleport foe. That was kinda abusive, and annoying but no more annoying than being killed while I was held.

If any power is abusive in PvP it is teleport foe. Yet it remains.

I want to know why the devs feel its ok to totaly nerf storm defense which was already quite weak and give nothing in compensation?

Haven't storm defenders been screwed enough already? Snow Storm works better for controllers, Tornado does a better job disorienting for controllers, To hit debuffs have been nerfed hard with the schedule change on enhancements, in fact the only powers that work better for Storm Defenders than controllers is Steamy Mist and 02, and 02 is a serious ghetto heal, better than nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

q

f

t

[KidQwik]

Yes, I do. Storm never reads all mine and I continuously rehash them after what I had said was ignored. I guess Stone didn't read all my other posts or address those points either in a way other than someone desperately trying to not have their power nerfed. My previous posts state my reasonings for nerfing hurricane and each time I say the same thing over and over, I get a reply back from someone whose power that they don't want nerfed give me a laundry list of things of things to do that are too extensive to take out ONE power. Many of the other single powers that are/were over powered were nerfed. No one likes the, yada yada. I guess I could say to Stormies now "get a team to hide behind since they hid behind you" but they won't see the fairness in that either even when I've been told "get a team to take out a stormie". Balance in PvP, even though it's sort of broken in many ways in this game to begin with since ATs and powersets were made for PvE will require nerfs. Will it ever be perfect? No. I'd never expect an empathy healer to be able to Heal her opponent to death. But somehow, someway, he/she should have a chance at defeating, not just constantly tossing another toon around, an opponent. Now Stormies will have to make use of their other powers more, slot them appropriately(like I keep being told), etc etc. Same rules and annoyances should apply to all. :)

[Stormbringer]

this is like talking to the wall.

[KidQwik]

Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I do. Storm never reads all mine and I continuously rehash them after what I had said was ignored. I guess Stone didn't read all my other posts or address those points either in a way other than someone desperately trying to not have their power nerfed. My previous posts state my reasonings for nerfing hurricane and each time I say the same thing over and over, I get a reply back from someone whose power that they don't want nerfed give me a laundry list of things of things to do that are too extensive to take out ONE power. Many of the other single powers that are/were over powered were nerfed. No one likes the, yada yada. I guess I could say to Stormies now "get a team to hide behind since they hid behind you" but they won't see the fairness in that either even when I've been told "get a team to take out a stormie". Balance in PvP, even though it's sort of broken in many ways in this game to begin with since ATs and powersets were made for PvE will require nerfs. Will it ever be perfect? No. I'd never expect an empathy healer to be able to Heal her opponent to death. But somehow, someway, he/she should have a chance at defeating, not just constantly tossing another toon around, an opponent. Now Stormies will have to make use of their other powers more, slot them appropriately(like I keep being told), etc etc. Same rules and annoyances should apply to all. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

oh i read them all alright.

[BrotherMick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[/ QUOTE ]

In MMO's I've found that when you have a numerically superior force, and are consistantly beaten then you need to seriously take a look at two likely explainations.

1.) They are much better players than you and your team. It happens alot, there will always be someone better than you. It's hard to accept, but it's there.

or

2.) The other players are average, but your team are a bunch of mindless fools. Even harder to accept, but it's still there.

Which one are you? Eight people continually trying to run up to a debuff / repel field and melee?

You tell me.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
this is like talking to the wall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more like two walls talking to each other. :-)

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is like talking to the wall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more like two walls talking to each other. :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

bah!

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me. :)

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[/ QUOTE ]

In MMO's I've found that when you have a numerically superior force, and are consistantly beaten then you need to seriously take a look at two likely explainations.

1.) They are much better players than you and your team. It happens alot, there will always be someone better than you. It's hard to accept, but it's there.

or

2.) The other players are average, but your team are a bunch of mindless fools. Even harder to accept, but it's still there.

Which one are you? Eight people continually trying to run up to a debuff / repel field and melee?

You tell me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it would be similiar to 8 players running up to someone turning on the non nerfed phase shift, MoG, or IH. Perma God mode was nerfed. Like I said, they could have made it a click! They may still! I know nerfs suck, but you could have got the nerf bat swung a lot harder than no longer being able to toss everyone around all the time.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

nope.

you're the player who refuses to question his build, refuses to intelligently employ temp powers, refuses to diversify his team...etc.

i dunno man...seems the only thing you've done to "adapt" is call for a nerf.

gratz on that.

way to adapt.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[/ QUOTE ]

In MMO's I've found that when you have a numerically superior force, and are consistantly beaten then you need to seriously take a look at two likely explainations.

1.) They are much better players than you and your team. It happens alot, there will always be someone better than you. It's hard to accept, but it's there.

or

2.) The other players are average, but your team are a bunch of mindless fools. Even harder to accept, but it's still there.

Which one are you? Eight people continually trying to run up to a debuff / repel field and melee?

You tell me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it would be similiar to 8 players running up to someone turning on the non nerfed phase shift, MoG, or IH. Perma God mode was nerfed. Like I said, they could have made it a click! They may still! I know nerfs suck, but you could have got the nerf bat swung a lot harder than no longer being able to toss everyone around all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i gotta meet these 8 players.

[BlueWrecker]

This is getting dull.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

nope.

you're the player who refuses to question his build, refuses to intelligently employ temp powers, refuses to diversify his team...etc.

i dunno man...seems the only thing you've done to "adapt" is call for a nerf.

gratz on that.

way to adapt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh. Accept your nerf and learn to live with it. There are many other people out there who play different ATs that have had to alter their play style against their will for PvP nerfs. You're just a new member to the Club of Nerf and will learn to "adapt".

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it.

"adapt."

this, from the guy who refuses to lift a finger to do anything to fight a storm.

"adapt."

you mean, like PMing cuppa and asking for a nerf?

is that how we adapt?

thanks for the advice, man.

brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You gotta be kidding. I'm not the player who stands there using one power and one power only except if it drops, then you use a travel power to haul [censored]... That's sort of a more of a refusual to diversify, adapt, or lift a finger if you ask me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

nope.

you're the player who refuses to question his build, refuses to intelligently employ temp powers, refuses to diversify his team...etc.

i dunno man...seems the only thing you've done to "adapt" is call for a nerf.

gratz on that.

way to adapt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[/ QUOTE ]

scroll up.

re-read more carefully.

try again.

[BlueWrecker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

[Overboard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I already got hit by the IH nerfs. The last of which was a poorly thought out solution for a number of reasons. The travesty that is the IH clicky does not justify another poor solution.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I already got hit by the IH nerfs. The last of which was a poorly thought out solution for a number of reasons. The travesty that is the IH clicky does not justify another poor solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree.

this was not an appropriate solution to the purported problem.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree to your comments about many powers being nerfed for PvP. I've always said the same thing and the bs the devs have said on why it's done. Regen also got the "it'll save stamina to make IH a click" nonsense. Regen has Stamina and QR! Reduce end enhancements worked great if you used them on top of that. Endurance was never an issue! So no, I don't like nerfs to begin with. But because of nerfs to other powers, they have to nerf even more powers to make thing more balanced. I think hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP. Not for PvE, because it never really seemed to work that great when Tsoo Sorcerers used it against my stalker.
Shrugs. Guess you guys will have to learn to live with the nerf. Go yell at Statesman though. He's the much more fun to loathe than me. :)

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I already got hit by the IH nerfs. The last of which was a poorly thought out solution for a number of reasons. The travesty that is the IH clicky does not justify another poor solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree.

this was not an appropriate solution to the purported problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree too. They could have reduced the power of IH and left it a toggle. Why they ever added heals to Integration was a completely dumb thing to do. Integration shouldn't have anything to do with heals! They should have left Int the way it is, weakened IH and left it a toggle, voila. But the devs don't think rationally like that. They think extreme make no good sense nerf sense.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree to your comments about many powers being nerfed for PvP. I've always said the same thing and the bs the devs have said on why it's done. Regen also got the "it'll save stamina to make IH a click" nonsense. Regen has Stamina and QR! Reduce end enhancements worked great if you used them on top of that. Endurance was never an issue! So no, I don't like nerfs to begin with. But because of nerfs to other powers, they have to nerf even more powers to make thing more balanced. I think hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP. Not for PvE, because it never really seemed to work that great when Tsoo Sorcerers used it against my stalker.
Shrugs. Guess you guys will have to learn to live with the nerf. Go yell at Statesman though. He's the much more fun to loathe than me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno...

your tenacity seems to suggest you get very excited by nerfs.

[BlueWrecker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree to your comments about many powers being nerfed for PvP. I've always said the same thing and the bs the devs have said on why it's done. Regen also got the "it'll save stamina to make IH a click" nonsense. Regen has Stamina and QR! Reduce end enhancements worked great if you used them on top of that. Endurance was never an issue! So no, I don't like nerfs to begin with. But because of nerfs to other powers, they have to nerf even more powers to make thing more balanced. I think hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP. Not for PvE, because it never really seemed to work that great when Tsoo Sorcerers used it against my stalker.
Shrugs. Guess you guys will have to learn to live with the nerf. Go yell at Statesman though. He's the much more fun to loathe than me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno...

your tenacity seems to suggest you get very excited by nerfs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got pretty excited as well, when the general tohit debuff came in, because the reasoning--as demonstrated by our basically calling the Devs out 20 ways to Sunday on the perceived duplicity--led to Statesman having to finally be called to post. Which, of course, garnered no follow up. But that's a whole other subject that boils my blood sometimes.

I except after I7 we'll have more dev interaction again. We better.

This all reeks of chattering for chatterings sake. If a nerf comes in that they don't try to sugarcoat or play dumb with, it doesn't bother me AS much. Because some things unfortunately (but not forever, oh yes) are unavoidable or changeable. But there will come a day when that changes too.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is getting dull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now take your medicine and like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's dull, and you're flame bait. Lots of the nerfs were unneeded. Storm already was needlessly weak relative to other sets. They got hit extra hard. Regardless of whether you agree or not, they did. As hard as Tanks did before, and as hard as regen did. None of the sets needed it, and whether or not it will be admitted to by the devs (it won't), it was because of PVP and the wildly obnoxious and vocal component of hardcore PVPers.

As for taking medicine, I think you need some to stop the keyboard diaherea problem you seem to be having.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree to your comments about many powers being nerfed for PvP. I've always said the same thing and the bs the devs have said on why it's done. Regen also got the "it'll save stamina to make IH a click" nonsense. Regen has Stamina and QR! Reduce end enhancements worked great if you used them on top of that. Endurance was never an issue! So no, I don't like nerfs to begin with. But because of nerfs to other powers, they have to nerf even more powers to make thing more balanced. I think hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP. Not for PvE, because it never really seemed to work that great when Tsoo Sorcerers used it against my stalker.
Shrugs. Guess you guys will have to learn to live with the nerf. Go yell at Statesman though. He's the much more fun to loathe than me. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno...

your tenacity seems to suggest you get very excited by nerfs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only when they are powers that I think are overpowered for PvP. I didn't get excited about suppression or tanker nerfs. I didn't get really excited when they nerfed Phase Shift or my Peacebringer's Quantum flight. I didn't get excited when the nerfed MoG. For IH I got into name calling and stuff similiar to what some Stormies have done when Hurricane got nerfed.
I feel your nerf pain, my main hero is a Regen Scrapper I've had since prelease of CoH. So talk about having the "adapt". I do feel that Hurricane needed to be nerfed for PvP though just like IH and MoG were. I don't really even fight hero to hero so saying it's wanting revenge is kinda pointless. I can sit on a ledge as a stalker and watch below what one power that one player has on is pwning countless players with and come to my conclusions from that alone if I needed to.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
I can sit on a ledge as a stalker and watch below what one power that one player has on is pwning countless players with and come to my conclusions from that alone if I needed to.

[/ QUOTE ]

i humbly submit that you are mistaken in your assessment of the above referenced dynamic.

that or you're just making it up.

:p

[Night_Club]

I love it when people use the words "fair" or "unfair" to describe anything at all in PvP; it's downright comical. You know why? I'll say it again because it bears repeating ... PvP isn't supposed to be fair. Chess is fair. You know why, because everyone starts with the exact same "powers." Is that what you PvPers want? Everyone to be exactly the same? City of ... Clones? Wow, that'd be exciting, wouldn't it?

Again, not an avid PvPer, so if that is what you want for YOUR game, so be it. Just leave MY game alone. I like it the way it is: pinning bosses in corners, getting hella aggro, knocking mobs around, getting mezzed, etc. That's what's fun for me!

So keep your whining to yourself, thank you. We all know that the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but because the oil isn't the easiest thing in the world to deal with, it invariably gets slopped over to the other side of things where it's not wanted or needed. So let's all just keep our mouths shut OK?

I don't care about fair, and I don't care about over-powered. I care about having a good time when I game. That's why I got out of collectible card gaming and came to CoH: I wasn't having fun anymore (see my earlier post if you like).

Again, do what you like with PvP. Just leave my Stormy out of it, please.

[CommunistPenguin]

Wanna know whats ironic? I never pvped with my storm cause he was way to easy to beat. Hurricanne was like a giant kick me sign for anyone with any mez or ranged power. It honestly wasnt worht playing when your constantly held then 1-2 shotted.

KidQwik, your so full of it, its not even funny. Yes players should have to find a way around other players powers. No stormies COULD NOT get away with using just one power. How am i supposed to kill you with hurricanne? It does no damage, so therefore i must use at least 2 powers to kill you. Combine that with extremely low damage and your gonna have to add in more powers needed to defeat you. Its laughable that you clam stormies only need one power, when from what i have experiences, stormies use all of their powers constantly. In a given fight i will most likely use 85% of all of my powers.

You say its unfair that melee should have to do alot to get around one power. Well guess what? defenders DONT EVEN GET THE OPTION of getting around a whole slew of powers. Mez? oooo BF until we run out, but wait we also need acc for perception, dam if we ever want to kill something, blues, cause storm is end intensive...

As a melee you have a whole list of possible tactics to take out storm, and what do you do? complain that its even necesary. How you even think turning hurricanne into a click is feasible is beyond me. Its not like IH, it has a vast effect upoun otheres around you. You NEED to be able to turn it off.

You show very little understanding of the set and defenders in general, yet you go around proclaiming that its good that it got nerfed, because you did too. Since when has two wrongs made a right?

PVP in this game is TEAM based. If you cant be bothered to create a balanced team, then why should you have the right to complain about your in-ability to adapt as the situation calls? A team of 8 melee SHOULD be gimped. They should be easily beaten by any balanced team. Over specializing and over loading on one or two types of AT should be highly discouraged in this game. It creates imbalances.

[TheShifty]

From Castle in dev digest:
[ QUOTE ]
This is as good a place to put this, as any:

I checked in a few Hurricane changes today that QA is going to look at. In Theory, these changes should mean that for PvE, Hurricane acts Exactly as it did before the previous change, while in PvP, it should act exactly as it does currently. Hopefully this change will get a green light from QA -- I've spent quite a bit of time on it over the last few days.


[/ QUOTE ]

At least we'll have the repel effect back for PvE. I'm guessing the to-hit debuff change is going to stay in place though since he's only talking about a change specific to hurricane. I wonder how this change is being put into effect exactly, and what this will do the endurance costs in PvP vs. PvE.

[Midgardener]

Sing halleluah! :)

I can live with the To Hit Debuff Schedule change. It was the combination of the two changes in PvE (along with the 'PvP-only rationale' for it being nerfed to begin with) that got my Storm-riding panties in a bunch. PvP can go blow my foghorn. It's nice to see that our PvE ravings weren't in vain.

As the end cost is per tick, I suspect that PvE Hurricane will be back to relative normality.

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
From Castle in dev digest:
[ QUOTE ]
This is as good a place to put this, as any:

I checked in a few Hurricane changes today that QA is going to look at. In Theory, these changes should mean that for PvE, Hurricane acts Exactly as it did before the previous change, while in PvP, it should act exactly as it does currently. Hopefully this change will get a green light from QA -- I've spent quite a bit of time on it over the last few days.


[/ QUOTE ]

At least we'll have the repel effect back for PvE. I'm guessing the to-hit debuff change is going to stay in place though since he's only talking about a change specific to hurricane. I wonder how this change is being put into effect exactly, and what this will do the endurance costs in PvP vs. PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]

i applaud castle's effort here and the attention he's given the player base.

still have to say, even for pvp, the fix does more than it intended. instead of just making it impossible to pin an opponant in a corner for the duration of a base raid, this "fix" opens storms up to a significant problem that had nothing to do with the original issue.

storm is now extremely vulnerable to blaster and defender melee

this will seriously impact a defender's survivability in the pvp game.

it will impact a controller's survivability too. however, controllers have their (very effective) primaries to assist them in picking up the slack. a defender's secondary is very weak in pvp. it will be woefully insufficient when it comes to dealing with the host of new dangerous opponants a storm finds himself dealing with in pvp.

remember guys...

storms have no self heal
storms have no mez protection
storms have no ranged defense
storms NOW HAVE extremely limited melee defense

they do not need this nerf.

[Mr_Right]

For the people who want the link (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=pvpgeneral&Number=5316641& bodyprev=#Post5316641)

Just because I have it handy...

>.>

And to get my "told you so..." in ;)

[Overboard]

Wow, I'm kind of amazed, and quite thankful.

[Darkaj]

*If* they change it back in PvE to what it was, it will be a hopeful sign for the game, cuz it will mean that they are least listening to us PvE players. But they haven't done it yet.

FivefifteenA

[Shadow_Stone]

This is a bone, the fix for the problem is a nerf to Storm Defenders Only Active Defense other than steamy mist which offers very little these days after suppression and reduction in resistance.

The power did not need to be changed and now Storm Defenders are pretty much screwed if they want to PvP. All because the stalkers whined that their was two single ATs with one powerset that had a strong defense against their attack. We all know that stalkers should be able to one shot anyone. That is the real reason behind this change!

I am getting really sick of the nerfs.

[Tutelary]

[ QUOTE ]
Wanna know whats ironic? I never pvped with my storm cause he was way to easy to beat. Hurricanne was like a giant kick me sign for anyone with any mez or ranged power. It honestly wasnt worht playing when your constantly held then 1-2 shotted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Same reason I stopped PvPing with my Stormer. Anytime I got too far from my team, I had my own personal Dominator waiting to mez me then proceed to 3-4 shot me. I got what I deserved when I strayed from my team, yet I didn't whine to nerf the Dominator's mez powers. Then I started getting TP Foed into the middle of a group of villains who all fired off attacks before Hurricane could debuff them as another example. Sounds like they found a way to nullify me so much I decided to take my Stormer out of PvP permanently. Despite all this, you will find no posts of mine advocating nerfs to TP foe or mezzing. I realized I had a weakness and without a TEAM, there was no effective way of compensating for them.

Screw PvP if this is what it brings....i.e. enough whiners to ruin powers when they can't hit the "I win" button because their powers are only effective on 4 out of 5 ATs. Yet somehow, they can conveniently forget their team, how they built it and how they use tactics to make it sound like Hurricane and the Stormer are the only ones defeating them.

[ESTorm]

Unfortunately the Devs aren't that bright and I am almost convinced they love pissing people off for the perverse joy of hearing them rant. The Devs simply just need to make two sets of game rules. one that kicks in the PVP areas and one for the regular areas. I understand scrappers and tanks are all pissed off because they can't one shot a defender and have to rely on their team mates to take them out. But my god we can't have that that would mean you would have to act as a team? GASP!!! Teamwork. But if the Devs have to nerf just for PVP because some whiners don't know how to think, well The Devs really need to just have two sets of rules one for the PVP area and the other for the rest of us. I say stop nerfing for the braindead!!!

I will repeat it a few times cause the devs don't always pay attention

ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.

ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.

ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.

ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.




[ QUOTE ]
WARNING: quite possibly my first CoH Forums rant. Ignore if you are so inclined.

Please add me to the list of people who could care less about PvP. Been there, done that enough to know for certain that it's not why I play this game. Fun now and then, but that's not where it's at for me really. If I cared about PvP at all I'd have already posted a ton of rants about how "unfair" force bubble or energy melee stuns, or <insert whatever power you like here> are. But I haven't. I mean complaining about being one-shotted by an assassin strike? Come on! That's why they're called "assassins." Just like hurricanes are called hurricanes for a reason too ...

So to see a PvP change take such a huge chunk of the fun of my playing my PvE-99.7%-of-the-time Storm Defender (who's still far from 50, which is about the only time I PvP with a character, after 50) rely honks me off.

I had just used my 34+ respec to switch from Flight to Teleport so that I could Mist up to a big group of mobs, cast Freezing Rain, shoot Tenebrous Tentacles, summon a Lightning Storm, teleport to the other side of the group, and push them back into the Storm. Good times! I was having a ball with that combo! Trapping a boss in a corner and throwing a tornado at him is good clean fun too! Bully the bully: what could be more super-heroic than that?

There's a reason why my top 4 characters are a tank, a scrapper who likes to tank, a storm defender who also likes to tank, and an MM: it's how I have fun! I do not appreciate PvP changes that severely alter my ability to have fun in PvE.

I haven't played since release without noticing a few things, and since you've indulged me thus far, I'll share some more thoughts ...

The way I see it, MMORPG PvP is just like collectible card gaming (you know, Magic and everything since): people who don't use a particular power/card/combo will always whine about said power/card/combo being overpowered. It doesn't matter that there are a number of ways to beat it. People are people, and over-competitive people don't like to lose ... ever. When they do lose, it's not their fault, it's always somebody else's. It has to be that their opponent used a cheap tactic or got lucky or whatever.

How do I know this? Because I've been there. I'm an overly competitive person myself. I'm playing this game (and largely avoiding PvP) because of it. There was a time when I was a regionally ranked player in a popular-at-the-time collectible card game. I picked the game up quicker than most, got good, won a lot, and kept winning. When I did lose, I told myself that it was because of cheap-tactic A or over-powered-combo B, or whatever. What's funny is that I would swear to avoid using said tactic/combo myself (even though I had the cards to do it) and instead vowed to find a way to beat it.

That's just how I dealt with it. I never once posted a nerf-this rant. It didn't matter how many other people were crying nerf, I considered it my job to figure out how to beat it. My job, not the makers of the game. But that was just me.

A funny thing about PvPing, collectible card gaming, and many other competitions that are completely irrelevent to the real world is that the people who don't get good and win a lot eventually quit and move onto something else, leaving just the "good" players to beat up on each other until the game dies.

To close, please don't kill my beloved Hurricane, at least in PvE. Do what you like with powers in PvP. PvP will never be 100% fair, and even if it was 100% fair, people would still say it wasn't, because in most any competition, there is a loser, and more often than not, the loser does not enjoy losing. This of course leaves only winners who then create more losers, and so on, until there is noone left. "There can be only one" may work for Highlander, but it makes for a lousy player base. I agree with an ealier poster: the future of this game lies not in PvP, but in new content, powersets, rewards, events and, in short, continuing to feel super. And one of my favorite ways to feel super in this game is to push the bad guys around, both figuratively, and in the case of my stormer, literally.

Thanks for your time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.

you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.

the only thing you noticed was hurricane.

you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.

it wasn't your team against hurricane.

it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.

trust me, i've seen it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.


[/ QUOTE ]

All other ATs have at least a fair chance of at hitting one another(except say those bubbled) and effecting one another regardless of melee or range. To say that an 8 mean team of melee shouldn't have a fair chance at dealing with one toon running one power is not balance.

As for PvP ruinining our toons.. Yes, if it effects PvE too which it has, then nerfs aren't a good thing. I think nerfs do need to happen in PvP simply because our powers and our ATs weren't made to be equal in PvP because they were based on PvE. Depending on what powersets you choose for your AT, you served this or that role in PvE. How is a healer supposed to compete in PvP? They were meant to heal in PvE so for someone who chose all healing and buffing powers and either didn't choose or didn't have much to choose from with offensive dmg powers, how are they supposed to defeat people in PvP?? I've always thought there should be two seperate ways powers function in PvE and PvP. We're talking about nerfs that didn't happen for over a year into CoH until Arena came about and were told "we didn't nerf because of PvP" which is a bunch of crap. How do you balance in PvP? It needs to be done in a way that each AT has a chance at taking out another AT in someway shape or form, but how do they do this without screwing up what your AT is supposed to be to begin with? No easy solution. I don't think nerfing things should apply to PvE powers unless they are far overpowered for PvE. Things like herding a massive amount of mobs with Dreck was an exploit(I guess) and should have been lowered. Shrugs. I dunno. Depends if u ask a tank.. Or a regen scrapper. Or a stormie. Everyone needs to try and look at their own AT fairly in PvP and look beyond "I like my toon just the way he/she is!" and look at the dynamics of all the other ATs and situations. Sure I didn't like my Regen nerfed in PvP AND PvE, but I've learned to live with my new set of multiple click powers that all do the same thing... Heal. Self Empathy am I, I guess. But now they broke the powers and how they worked originally and homogenized them all. Sigh.

[Circuit_Boy]

KidQwik:

[ QUOTE ]
You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?

Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[ChrisMoses]

Despite any disagreements I might have had with Circuit in the past, he is dead on here. That is the biggest double standard I have ever seen.

When I first began to PvP with my Stalker, and realized I could do very little against a Storm, yeah, I complained. Then I thought to myself many of the things Circuit has stated, about how "Hey, that Empath defender can't do anything to defend himself against my 'ONE power' Assassin Strike, which even defeats her... I guess thats balance that I can't do anything against a Stormy or Force Bubble.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?


[/ QUOTE ]

IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others.. In regards to Web and Stun grenades which have a very low ACC on them, they have never worked on any Stormie unbuffed, never mind any other AT I've used them on just to get rid of them because all they seem to do is blow up and miss. The "grenades" in PvP suck, plain and simple. IR Toggles work though. If they increase the ACC on grenades to hit all the time and Stun and knock off Hurricane then you can keep Hurricane unnerfed because there will be an effective temp power to use against hurricane like their is an effective temp power to use against stalkers.

[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above post about effective single temp power to use against Stalkers, no team needed.

[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?


[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree here. No one should have to change a travel power to deal with a single power. There is a distinct difference in jumping all around mindlessly to avoid a stalker's AS than there is to jump and try to place a precision placed punch on the head to knock off hurricane which most likely won't happen because you'll be repelled or ACC debuffed so much as to not hit anyway.. Jumping around to avoid stalkers mean a stalker will have to work to AS or even hit you as well.

[ QUOTE ]

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.


[/ QUOTE ]

See above comment.

[ QUOTE ]

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. I never would say that because there is an effective temp power to purchase against stalkers. It's the first thing I buy in SC if the temp power is available. If it's not, I constantly jump around, fly, SS, or SJ(all depends on what toon I'm on) or do Dragon's Tail on my scrapper all the time to try to hit them if I can't see them and they may be around me.
[ QUOTE ]

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]

If a I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.

Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]

First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.


[/ QUOTE ]
People have to have tactics in dealing with Stalkers. They can either get goggles, jump around, use tactics, etc. All these things CAN thwart a Stalkers Hide because a Stalker can't just stand still and not hit someone, and once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily. A stalker has a risk by using AS while hidden. It drops. There goes his power to not be seen and he is vulnerable because he used another power. Many stormies use just Hurricane and run around with it on. Even if stormy uses another power it doesn't drop. And there is no incentive to use any other powers to have it drop if it was made to do that because that ONE power which is continously on which is a toggle, effectively negates all melee attacks that can't get past it. That's all they need to use. There is no penalization like stalkers have when they AS and hide drops, or Inv or Mog drops, or if an elec blaster uses Thunderous blast and all his end is gone and he can't regain end for a bit without popping blues on top of all his toggles have dropped... Hurricane stays on and does it's overpowered job. One power. All the stormie needs to use if he so choices with no penalty for over use like the others.

[ QUOTE ]

Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of these powers are clicks which drop or can't be used in SC. I know MoG can't because it's too high to use in SC(if i remember correctly). If they made Hurricane a higher level power that could be used in Warburg and the higher level PvP zones that came out that would work(but I think that wouldn't be fair for Stormies either to be honest). I know they did it some villains powers intially where they swapped one power to a lower power and made a lower power a higher power. Too late though in the game to do that. However, even if it was the case that Hurricane could be used only in the higher zones along with the powers that could counter it, even then MoG has a long recharge as well as the others. That's fine though, because at least then they have the powers to be able to use there against hurricane even if i has a loing recharge. Then you'd have hurricane running all the time there too. So maybe a click for it and bubblers would be an equal compromise. If a scrapper can't perma those clicks because of the long recharge times and have to use other powers, maybe making hurricane a click where stormies would have to use other powers is fair too.

[Circuit_Boy]

KidQwik:

Wheeee!

The Merry-Go-Round you're on is fun!

...but you're spinning. Face it.

First off, you're vastly overselling IR Goggles' effectiveness and vastly underselling the utility of Web Grenade and Stun Grenade to make your point. I know from personal experience that IR Goggles are not enough to see a Stalker using both Hide and Stealth. _Castle_ has even confirmed that it requires more than IR Goggles and Tactics together for a non-Defender to perceive a Stalker who is using Stealth and Hide. See _Castle_'s post on IR Goggles (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=4231060& Forum=,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage =7&Limit=25&Main=4128679&Search=true&where=&Name=1 34522&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post4231060), where he said "You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power." In fact, I'd go so far as saying you are actually lying when you said "IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others..", because this claim cannot be true unless you wish to maintain that _Castle_ is lying about IR Goggles' effectiveness.

So much for your first attempted counterpoint.

Second, you far too easily dismiss my point about "needing a team", but that was one of your own primary objections to Hurricane. You don't believe you should have to "rely on a team" to deal with Hurricane, but in your own post, you tell others that they have to rely on teams who have the Leadership Power Pool in order to deal with Stalkers' Assassin Strike. That's a double-standard, pure and simple. Add to this the fact that, again, _Castle_ has confirmed that it takes more than Tactics alone to perceive a Stalker who's using Hide and Stealth, and your point here is really out of gas anyway.

So much for your second attempted counterpoint.

Face it. You're adhering to a double standard when it comes to Hurricane. You tell others they have to rely on teams to deal with Stalkers' Hide, but apparently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, and you don't think Stalkers should have to rely on teams to deal with Hurricane. That's a double standard, pure and simple. You argue that Stalkers should not have to rely on "unreliable" temporary powers such as Web Grenade or Stun Grenade to deal with Hurricane, yet you tell others that they should rely on IR Goggles to deal with Stalkers' Hide, even when a Developer, _Castle_, has said IR Goggles are inadequate for the job. Again, apparently what's good for others is not good enough for Stalkers. This is yet another double standard.

And this doesn't even address the point that Assassin's Strike outright kills people in one shot; all Hurricane does is impede your ability to one-shot a Defender.

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
KidQwik:

Wheeee!

The Merry-Go-Round you're on is fun!

...but you're spinning. Face it.

First off, you're vastly overselling IR Goggles' effectiveness and vastly underselling the utility of Web Grenade and Stun Grenade to make your point. I know from personal experience that IR Goggles are not enough to see a Stalker using both Hide and Stealth. _Castle_ has even confirmed that it requires more than IR Goggles and Tactics together for a non-Defender to perceive a Stalker who is using Stealth and Hide. See _Castle_'s post on IR Goggles (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=4231060& Forum=,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage =7&Limit=25&Main=4128679&Search=true&where=&Name=1 34522&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&ol dertype=&bodyprev=#Post4231060), where he said "You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power." In fact, I'd go so far as saying you are actually lying when you said "IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others..", because this claim cannot be true unless you wish to maintain that _Castle_ is lying about IR Goggles' effectiveness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers can choose to make their Hide even more superior by using TWO self powers. Yes you need tactics on yourself or from a team to see them. Hide however allows AS to effect ONE player. Hurricane effects not only the stormie that is using is, not only the people on his/her team, but also any hero not on the team with the stormie to protect them ALL. So it negates All melee attacks all behind Hurricane, not only the stormie. Overpowered. I never said Castle lied. If you said I said Statesman lied though, you'd be right on the money.. As for stun/web grenades, they are simply NOT effective like IR goggles. Would be nice to get to-hit figure on them from a dev about how suck they are.

[ QUOTE ]

So much for your first attempted counterpoint.


[/ QUOTE ]

Touche!

[ QUOTE ]

Second, you far too easily dismiss my point about "needing a team", but that was one of your own primary objections to Hurricane. You don't believe you should have to "rely on a team" to deal with Hurricane, but in your own post, you tell others that they have to rely on teams who have the Leadership Power Pool in order to deal with Stalkers' Assassin Strike. That's a double-standard, pure and simple. Add to this the fact that, again, _Castle_ has confirmed that it takes more than Tactics alone to perceive a Stalker who's using Hide and Stealth, and your point here is really out of gas anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not say GET ON A TEAM WITH SO AND SO TO TAKE OUT STALKERS. You don't need a team to take out a stalker. I said they could either have tactics themselves OR from a team. Or have IR Goggles. Needless to say, Tactics counters Superior Hide, team or no team. There is no "team" or nonteam power that can be cast on a melee toon that doesn't have a resist repell effect to walk past hurricane. MoG cannot be used in SC. And since I have a non regen Stalker there is nothing to use against Hurricane. Even in Warburg, my supposed uber clickie power(that crashes and make me vulnerable mind u) doesn't have resist repell powers.

[ QUOTE ]

So much for your second attempted counterpoint.


[/ QUOTE ]

Touche 2.

[ QUOTE ]

Face it. You're adhering to a double standard when it comes to Hurricane. You tell others they have to rely on teams to deal with Stalkers' Hide, but apparently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, and you don't think Stalkers should have to rely on teams to deal with Hurricane. That's a double standard, pure and simple. You argue that Stalkers should not have to rely on "unreliable" temporary powers such as Web Grenade or Stun Grenade to deal with Hurricane, yet you tell others that they should rely on IR Goggles to deal with Stalkers' Hide, even when a Developer, _Castle_, has said IR Goggles are inadequate for the job. Again, apparently what's good for others is not good enough for Stalkers. This is yet another double standard.


[/ QUOTE ]

Misinterpreted words in my mouth u put. Hurricane is one power. Stealth+Hide = 2 powers use to enhance ONE ability. Hurricane = one power used that has no Power Pool or temp power to respec into that counters it. As I said before Stun/Webs grenades are inadequate. I have a strong feeling the devs would agree they're not so great to begin with(devs?). IR goggles work against Hide alone. Hide+Stealth needs Tactics. Tactics alone counters both. Where's the power by itself that truely works against Hurricane either a temp or powerpool accessible to all that I could respec and get that will work. Does Acrobatics do that? I need to double check that.

[ QUOTE ]

And this doesn't even address the point that Assassin's Strike outright kills people in one shot; all Hurricane does is impede your ability to one-shot a Defender.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does much more then impedes a stalkers ability to one shot the hurricane using defender.

[Reptlbrain]

[ QUOTE ]
once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?

[KidQwik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Placate was nerfed in PvP recently. Placate now only works on the person it was cast. If that person is on a team, all the team members can now continue to see the stalker once Hide drops and placate is used. Only person that can't see the stalker or attack them now is just the Placated one.

[ESTorm]

The point is you are not putting a team together that is even remotely strategic and are doomed for many defeats. A blaster can do hit and run tactics on your team all day. You should have plenty of problems going strictly melee its your own fault. If gale was a bit more accurate you would be complaining about that as well. Put together a balanced team and you will have far less problems. Going all melee, all blasters or all anything you are asking for trouble. At least we agree on that there should be separate sets of game rules for powers in pvp and pve. If the devs had any common sense which I have yet to see evidence of this, they would implement a plan. Your right the game wasn't designed for pvp, it was designed to work best if you have a diverse and balanced team. Which again is why you are having problems in pvp with an all melee team. They would have to redesign the game from scratch to get pvp to work. In the long run it makes little sense to try to try to balance a superhero game too much. The whole genre is unbalanced.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.


[/ QUOTE ]

All other ATs have at least a fair chance of at hitting one another(except say those bubbled) and effecting one another regardless of melee or range. To say that an 8 mean team of melee shouldn't have a fair chance at dealing with one toon running one power is not balance.

As for PvP ruinining our toons.. Yes, if it effects PvE too which it has, then nerfs aren't a good thing. I think nerfs do need to happen in PvP simply because our powers and our ATs weren't made to be equal in PvP because they were based on PvE. Depending on what powersets you choose for your AT, you served this or that role in PvE. How is a healer supposed to compete in PvP? They were meant to heal in PvE so for someone who chose all healing and buffing powers and either didn't choose or didn't have much to choose from with offensive dmg powers, how are they supposed to defeat people in PvP?? I've always thought there should be two seperate ways powers function in PvE and PvP. We're talking about nerfs that didn't happen for over a year into CoH until Arena came about and were told "we didn't nerf because of PvP" which is a bunch of crap. How do you balance in PvP? It needs to be done in a way that each AT has a chance at taking out another AT in someway shape or form, but how do they do this without screwing up what your AT is supposed to be to begin with? No easy solution. I don't think nerfing things should apply to PvE powers unless they are far overpowered for PvE. Things like herding a massive amount of mobs with Dreck was an exploit(I guess) and should have been lowered. Shrugs. I dunno. Depends if u ask a tank.. Or a regen scrapper. Or a stormie. Everyone needs to try and look at their own AT fairly in PvP and look beyond "I like my toon just the way he/she is!" and look at the dynamics of all the other ATs and situations. Sure I didn't like my Regen nerfed in PvP AND PvE, but I've learned to live with my new set of multiple click powers that all do the same thing... Heal. Self Empathy am I, I guess. But now they broke the powers and how they worked originally and homogenized them all. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.

[ QUOTE ]
KidQwik:

[ QUOTE ]
You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?

Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.

[ QUOTE ]
KidQwik:

[ QUOTE ]
You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?

Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.

[ QUOTE ]
KidQwik:

[ QUOTE ]
You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?

Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

You are correct about invulnerability and also the rock armor set have resistance to knockback which work well against hurricanes. I am sure there are a few others as well but not sure which.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If a I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.

Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

Yes there are powers that a melee type can walk right up to a storm defender with hurricane on and hit them. I forget the specific names but off hand both Invulnerability and the Stone armor set both have a power that negates knockback. I am sure there are others but I don't know off hand what they might be.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?


[/ QUOTE ]

IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others.. In regards to Web and Stun grenades which have a very low ACC on them, they have never worked on any Stormie unbuffed, never mind any other AT I've used them on just to get rid of them because all they seem to do is blow up and miss. The "grenades" in PvP suck, plain and simple. IR Toggles work though. If they increase the ACC on grenades to hit all the time and Stun and knock off Hurricane then you can keep Hurricane unnerfed because there will be an effective temp power to use against hurricane like their is an effective temp power to use against stalkers.

[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above post about effective single temp power to use against Stalkers, no team needed.

[ QUOTE ]

If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?


[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree here. No one should have to change a travel power to deal with a single power. There is a distinct difference in jumping all around mindlessly to avoid a stalker's AS than there is to jump and try to place a precision placed punch on the head to knock off hurricane which most likely won't happen because you'll be repelled or ACC debuffed so much as to not hit anyway.. Jumping around to avoid stalkers mean a stalker will have to work to AS or even hit you as well.

[ QUOTE ]

These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.


[/ QUOTE ]

See above comment.

[ QUOTE ]

So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. I never would say that because there is an effective temp power to purchase against stalkers. It's the first thing I buy in SC if the temp power is available. If it's not, I constantly jump around, fly, SS, or SJ(all depends on what toon I'm on) or do Dragon's Tail on my scrapper all the time to try to hit them if I can't see them and they may be around me.
[ QUOTE ]

Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=4811497&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=5&Lim it=25&Main=4805540&Search=true&where=&Name=79158&d aterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post4811497):

[ QUOTE ]
I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Hydrophidian]

[ QUOTE ]
Hurricane effects not only the stormie that is using is, not only the people on his/her team, but also any hero not on the team with the stormie to protect them ALL. So it negates All melee attacks all behind Hurricane, not only the stormie. Overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I play a Storm Defender. It is not overpowered. Not in PVP, not in PVE. Period. Not any single power... nothing about it. Not a thing. Period.

A Storm Defender had one thing that was a major contribution. Finally. One thing that actually had people requesting them for teams. Finally.

And then it's taken away. Why? No good reason that I can see.

You don't like being countered by a particular power set? Gee, that's too bad. Try playing a Storm Defender, which is countered by the vast majority of sets in the game. No status protection, very limited defenses, and not too much in the damage department either, when compared to... well, to just about everything else, save possibly other Defenders.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need a team to take out a stalker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. I need a team to do anything in open PVP. Moreover, I need a team with someone who can give me status protection, or else it's a pointless endeavor.

So, if Hurricane is such a game breaker, how could that possibly be?

[ QUOTE ]
It does much more then impedes a stalkers ability to one shot the hurricane using defender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it might actually make that Stalker *gasp* vulnerable for a minute. I'm sure that's such a pain.

Sorry to be so snarky, but I really can't take anyone complaining about Hurricane all that seriously, and I'm currently very irate that the devs apparently did.

In open PVP, the Storm set was no more threatening than several others. That's how it actually plays out. Hurricane countered melee, yes. That was it's function, what it was supposed to do. It did it effectively enough that it had to be shut down. Well, that's the way it should be. If you don't have to work to shut down or completely override a defense, what's the point of the defense?

There isn't one.

Hope you enjoy PVP with your Stalker. I can no longer participate with my Defender.

Storm did not need a nerf. Period.

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Placate was nerfed in PvP recently. Placate now only works on the person it was cast. If that person is on a team, all the team members can now continue to see the stalker once Hide drops and placate is used. Only person that can't see the stalker or attack them now is just the Placated one.

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly that sounds more like a fix to me. After all, your not placating the whole team, your placating an individual.

The fact is this, PVP in this game is designed to be team centered. Therefore no matter what the opposition brings, you are able to counter it with a teammate with the required abilities. Hurricanne is easily countered. Get a dominator or multiple corruptors with holds, or even a high enough invulnerable brute and you will easily defeat the storm.

As for the negatives, hurricanne draws alot of aggro. Not just from npc, but from players as well. A hurricanne is basically a big kick me sign for a class that is already the easiest to kill. You say coming out of stealth when you as is its counter? HA! like that matters that much. Most players just sj tp or ss away the instant as finishes anyway.

The only reason that hurricanne is a challenge for you is that you refuse to find ways around it. THis includes finding others with abilitys that you lack. After all, the stormie has to rely on others that have abilities that they lack to pvp. After all they need mez protection, healing, and damage output.

[gbaji]

Wow. People are still arguing about this.

Look. You can't compare the difficulty to overcome a defensive power to the difficulty to defend against an offensive power.

Hurricane is a defensive power. The fact that my stormie is running it does not allow me to defeat anyone. It does not earn my any kills. I *can't* defeat you with it. I can only make it harder for you to defeat me. The defensive power, in order to be overpowering must protect me from *everything* in the zone that might want to defeat me. And guess what? Hurricane falls far short.

AS is an offensive power. It does not have to be effective against everyone in the zone. It only needs to be effective against the one target you've chosen to attack. Period. If it allows you to walk up and defeat one opponent without being spotted, then it has benefited you greatly.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try to compare a defensive power to an offensive one. I also think that a lot of stalkers who are whining about this simply don't understand the death rate that storm defenders and controller recieve when in a PvP zone. A hurricane makes you the *first* target of every attacking group. Sure. We've protected outselves from a stalker, but every single other enemy will make sure to take us out first. Our life expectancy is pretty darn short. In contrast, the typical stalker *only* dies if he gets really unlucky. He has to flub an attack and flub his escape, or stumble across someone with the exact right set of powers to spot him, track him without him spotting them, and take him out. That's not going to happen that often...

[Hydrophidian]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. People are still arguing about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just got my first real taste of it today.

A melee character marched right up to me and took me down with one hit. I had little damage, and then... floored. Just like that.

I don't see how that 'balances' anything. I really don't. I have no idea what the developers are trying to do. This particular change flummoxed me so much, I PMed a dev about it. I've never done that.

I'd really, really like to know how this balances anything, how watering down one of my only defenses, apparently to the point of ineffectiveness, somehow makes the game more fair.

When, exactly, am I going to be able to two-shot any other AT?

When do I get my mez protection, and significant defenses/resistances/self-heals on par with other power sets?

Any Stormy knows the primary weakness of Hurricane: it doesn't help you against ranged attacks. That's what balanced it. It was fine the way it was.

Now it is decidedly unfine. Now it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, but it still has the weaknesses it had. Weakness that still apply in PVP as well, despite any ridiculous claims of how uBeR Hurricane is. Please.

Debuffs... debuff you. That's what they do. If you are debuffed, and you can still hit reliably, the debuff is no longer of any worth.

I'm quickly shifting to the 'remove Defenders from the game' camp. Considering I play Defenders more than any other AT, that's... pretty sad.

[ESTorm]

Fortunately the changed doesn't affect me since I don't do pvp and apparently it isn't supposed to affect pve from what I hear. But still I see it as yet another in a long line of stupid changes by the Devs. There should never be a nerf just because some players are brain dead and can't adjust to combat situations. Now all the stormies need to complain about hide for stalkers and nerf them right back since the devs unbalanced the game for storm. See devs have child like egos and when they make an error they can't own up like an adult and say my bad. The original version of supression was like this and it took a bleep load of complaining about it affecting toggle powers. The only thing I would suggest is launching a pm and email campaign to the devs to try to get it put back or fixed. Thats what it took for them to fix the original version of supression which made the game unplayable for many ATs. Also it took people quitting over it since the game was broken. I was one of them. Now it is just constantly annoying. There should be no player character that can completely one shot another player character ever unless they are like 6 levels under and even then.... We are superheroes and villains not a buncha damn minions. Devs screwed up yet again. Yay us.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. People are still arguing about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just got my first real taste of it today.

A melee character marched right up to me and took me down with one hit. I had little damage, and then... floored. Just like that.

I don't see how that 'balances' anything. I really don't. I have no idea what the developers are trying to do. This particular change flummoxed me so much, I PMed a dev about it. I've never done that.

I'd really, really like to know how this balances anything, how watering down one of my only defenses, apparently to the point of ineffectiveness, somehow makes the game more fair.

When, exactly, am I going to be able to two-shot any other AT?

When do I get my mez protection, and significant defenses/resistances/self-heals on par with other power sets?

Any Stormy knows the primary weakness of Hurricane: it doesn't help you against ranged attacks. That's what balanced it. It was fine the way it was.

Now it is decidedly unfine. Now it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, but it still has the weaknesses it had. Weakness that still apply in PVP as well, despite any ridiculous claims of how uBeR Hurricane is. Please.

Debuffs... debuff you. That's what they do. If you are debuffed, and you can still hit reliably, the debuff is no longer of any worth.

I'm quickly shifting to the 'remove Defenders from the game' camp. Considering I play Defenders more than any other AT, that's... pretty sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Hydrophidian]

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately the changed doesn't affect me since I don't do pvp and apparently it isn't supposed to affect pve from what I hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. It isn't so glaringly apparent, because of mob behavior vs. player behavior, but it's there.

And, of course, the lessening of debuff effectiveness is also there, but that's allegedly going to be better come I7.

Myself, I'd really like to think that there's some master gameplan, that the developers are aware of these huge gaps in gameplay quality between ATs (and even between sets within ATs) and are trying to address them.

But stuff like this just sends me reeling and really undermines my enjoyment.

[Dalantia]

It's not glaringly apparent, until you see a mob pushed back for one second. Running up to you. Then pushed back for one second.

the reduced end cost is nice, though.

[ESTorm]

I would think if they wanted to balance out hurricane (even though it was just fine the way it was) they would compensate that it can't push opponents away as effectively by increasing the ACC debuff for those in melee range. The logic would be they are being pelted by high speed winds. kind of makes it even more difficult to hit your target in that situation. But then again logic never enters the mind of the devs of course. There was a post by castle stating that it only effects pvp situations.

Well unless they completely scrap the current game and rebuild it there will always be gaps in combat effectiveness. The game was originally designed for teams whose powers compliment each other.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately the changed doesn't affect me since I don't do pvp and apparently it isn't supposed to affect pve from what I hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. It isn't so glaringly apparent, because of mob behavior vs. player behavior, but it's there.

And, of course, the lessening of debuff effectiveness is also there, but that's allegedly going to be better come I7.

Myself, I'd really like to think that there's some master gameplan, that the developers are aware of these huge gaps in gameplay quality between ATs (and even between sets within ATs) and are trying to address them.

But stuff like this just sends me reeling and really undermines my enjoyment.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ESTorm]

Is it me or does hurricane now behave more like repel where you have drops in endurance when opponents are pushed back? If they changed it yet again I have to reslot it and even respec my character yet again. I had endurance reducers on it because it was a constant drain before.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not glaringly apparent, until you see a mob pushed back for one second. Running up to you. Then pushed back for one second.

the reduced end cost is nice, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Stormbringer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately the changed doesn't affect me since I don't do pvp and apparently it isn't supposed to affect pve from what I hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. It isn't so glaringly apparent, because of mob behavior vs. player behavior, but it's there.

And, of course, the lessening of debuff effectiveness is also there, but that's allegedly going to be better come I7.

Myself, I'd really like to think that there's some master gameplan, that the developers are aware of these huge gaps in gameplay quality between ATs (and even between sets within ATs) and are trying to address them.

But stuff like this just sends me reeling and really undermines my enjoyment.

[/ QUOTE ]

:eek:

you're back?

:)

[Dalantia]

It uses less endurance because it ticks less often - not because it's like repel.