Archery/Trick Arrows for I7 [Archive]

Bone_Machine

04-03-2006, 03:22 PM

Any chance perhaps of a positive change to Flash Arrow in light of the recent changes to to hit debuff enhancements? Pretty please?

Also, what exactly was the Oil Slick bug? I thought it didn't light all the time by design. I'd personally be happy if you lowered the defence on the Slick. Nothing worse than MISSING with Blazing Arrow from the 'most accurate' of the secondaries...

Other than that it's nice to see some love at all. THanks for the update.

OneAboveAll

04-03-2006, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.

[/ QUOTE ]

How bout working with Oilslick so it works with pets????? this has been reported all over the boards. Being a fire/ta troller using oilslick makes my imps stop working for extended periods of time even if you /release_pets.....!!!!!

Luminara

04-03-2006, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as we were aware, Oil Slick was never meant to have a 100% ignition rate. The problem there is that it's streakier than it really should be (some of us have had it fire up consistantly for hours on end, then suddenly fail to light at all for hours).

The more relevant and important problem is the insanely high defense that the target appears to have. Missing the target repeatedly, despite having accuracy >90% and taking no other actions between attempts, isn't supposed to happen. Ever. Especially not on an immobile, supposedly defenseless target, essentially no different from a desk or crate.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that you're referring to the decade-long pause after these powers finish animating. Will the same be done for Ice Arrow, Acid Arrow, and any other TA or Archery powers with post-animation pauses? What about the 0.5-1.0 second delay between when Entangling Arrow's animation completes and the target is actually immobilized?

It's a good start, _Castle_, and appreciated, but some more information would go a long ways. If the sets are going to take a while to get straightened out, it's understandable, but telling us would give us a lot less to complain about and more to look forward to.

Or, I can keep yelling at you in every thread you post to. :)

Magnus_Star

04-03-2006, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]
w00t! :cool:

Anti_Proton

04-03-2006, 03:38 PM

the point though is that if I hit the slick with my fire arrow, it should ignite everytime. Fire + oil = Bigger Fire. Although, it really shouldnt be that hard to hit in the first place.

Veazey

04-03-2006, 03:52 PM

This is really sort of a nitpicky thing more than a serious problem (like the decade-long pause and the Entangling Arrow delay), but I would absolutely love it if Explosive Arrow did smashing/fire or lethal/fire instead of smashing/lethal. Even if it's 1% fire...that would give Archery a synergy with Trick Arrow in that you could hurl an AoE to attack foes and the Oil Slick with the same shot, instead of having to waste a Blazing Arrow.
I know that all the other grenade-type attacks (M30, the dynamite the Scrapyarders use, all the foe grenade powers) are smashing/lethal. I've watched the combat log to make sure there isn't already some in-game precedent for fire damage from grenades, but there isn't. This confuses me slightly. There's a massive, firey explosion. Shouldn't it burn at least slightly? Yes, there's a concussion (smashing) and yes, there's shrapnel (lethal), but I feel like there ought to be a tiny fire component, too.

Once again, this is sort of a small thing, but something I feel would also greatly improve the interoperability of Trick Arrow and Archery, because Electricity, Energy, Sonic, and Radiation all have a cone or AoE attack with an energy component that can be used to set the slick on fire without "wasting" a shot.

Jealous_deva

04-03-2006, 03:55 PM

Any word on endurance changes? Snap shot and ranged shot seem a bit off (not sure which one, but when cycling them I run dry on my blaster faster than other sets).

Xander_Drake

04-03-2006, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.quote[ QUOTE ]

Will it still have the bug in PvP where the animation goes off, endurance use, but no icon/affect on the villian/hero used on?

Siska

04-03-2006, 04:03 PM

Yay! This is a start!
.
.
.
BTW, no one seems to like Mace for tankers, you should look into that. SayNoMore, hint, hint, nudge nudge, KnowWhatIMean?
:D

Mr_Remarkable

04-03-2006, 04:04 PM

Nothing about the horrendous recharge times on all the good powers, eh?

Three slotting Glue Arrow with recharge SOs just so you can use it once a fight is horribly wasteful for a 3rd tier power.

And weren't you going to look at Entangling Arrow to try to at least make it as good as Web Grenade?

BlueWrecker

04-03-2006, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, Castle. As mentioned below, Flash Arrow is in need of some loving as well. If not stackable, any change of either increaseing the base duration of the flash effect/debuff, or of increasing the slight current strength of the debuff? Another thing the Arrow-using SG mates of mine often complain about (I had one too, with this, before I stoppped playing him so much) was the splash radius on Acid Arrow being kind of tiny and inconsistent. A slight increase on this, perhaps? Maybe another couple of feet? Nothing as huge as firewall, but perhaps a doubling of the already small AOE area?

Quatermain

04-03-2006, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yay! This is a start!
.
.
.
BTW, no one seems to like Mace for tankers, you should look into that. SayNoMore, hint, hint, nudge nudge, KnowWhatIMean?
:D

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded.
I dont know how to present a good case for "Could you please look at mace, it seems to be below par", but it seems to take some punishment damage wise for its weak stun/control abilities.

Happy_Thoughts

04-03-2006, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you're saying that if this bug fix works, then any successful fire/energy attack on the oil slick will always light the slick? That would be great!

As already mentioned in this thread (and others), we'd really and truly appreciate it if the abnormal miss rate was looked into and addressed. It's not uncommon to miss the Oil Slick with Blazing Arrow for the entire duration that the Oil Slick is targetable. That's just frustrating!

Also, I am hoping against hope that these fixes don't constitute a clean bill of health on the TA set. We've been patiently awaiting a revisiting of the set for almost nine months (though not always pleasantly patient, I'm the first to admit). I'm eagerly looking forward to a new "Developer Response Thread" on the set, and hope that player input is considered this time. (Sorry if it sounds like I'm dumping on you, _Castle_, it's just that you're the ONLY developer to even mention Trick Arrow since early August of last year, and a lot of us are just plain antsy to get our favorite concept set in the same league as actual defender sets!)

We really do appreciate the time and effort you're putting in for the few of us who play TA. :)

Rush_Bolt

04-03-2006, 04:19 PM

A few things that might need looking at as well include:
- Flash Arrow: the ToHit debuff seems remarkably low and is non-stackable. Was this power intended only to serve as a Perception debuff with a hit check?

- Entangling Arrow: it hits the target, but the Immobilize doesn't take effect for a brief moment.

- Glue Arrow: the recharge on this is horrendously long.

- Ice Arrow: the activation animation ends with a short pause. Could this possibly be shaved off?

Now, those are the only big ones I can think of since I've only got limited experience with the set, but that there's some love coming down the pipe makes my TA/A Defender shout with glee.

Castle

04-03-2006, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How bout working with Oilslick so it works with pets????? this has been reported all over the boards. Being a fire/ta troller using oilslick makes my imps stop working for extended periods of time even if you /release_pets.....!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that *should* be fixed as well. I've not tested it since the AI guys told me it was dealt with. I have my fingers crossed -- this power breaks if I look at it crosseyed. :)

Mantid

04-03-2006, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its a start at least.... :eek:

DesolateJoker

04-03-2006, 04:41 PM

I'm glad for the love, and my TA/Arch defender will welcome these fixes. However, there are a few other things I've noticed.

-- Any radiation debuff that is contacting the Oil Slick makes it untargetable quicker then normal
-- I almost never use flash arrow or net arrow anymore due to their overall worthless nature. Either giving the net a longer duration and/or a one time knockdown component WITH the immobilize(to show that it entangled the target as they moved) would help. The flash needs to either be stackable or have a bigger debuff.
-- Acid arrow either needs a bigger radius, as already suggested, or a bigger debuff. I'd rather you take out the damage which is laughable and give me another 5 or 10% debuff.

Right now at the higher levels my toon feels almost useless on large teams. I draw more aggro with the AoEs then I can handle, so either I stick to single target attacks that do VERY little damage or I just hope not to die in every fight. Most things die so fast in large groups that the debuffs are almost worthless, and you end up being relegated to a glue and oil machine.

Happy_Thoughts

04-03-2006, 04:55 PM

Oh piffle, I forgot this one little request.

Could the damage numbers from Oil Slick be made to be orange rather than gray (to denote that it's your damage, rather than someone else's)? Pretty please? Yeah, I know it's minor, but orange numbers are just that much more satisfying psychologically.

Punchy

04-03-2006, 04:55 PM

Sky Raider jump bots, when they explode, do lethal/fire damage.

Shubbie

04-03-2006, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are still a few more problems

1. Glue arrows recharge is too long for an early dependant on power

2. Flash arrows effect is too small for an early dependant on power.

3. Net arrow, single target immob's are still considered mostly useless except for controllers trying to initiate containment. Animation too long also.

4. acid arrows area is too small.

5. Disruption arrow is 3 times longer recharge and 2/3 the debuff of tar patch.

6. The rest of archery's animations are too long also.

Balanced

04-03-2006, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this power breaks if I look at it crosseyed. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
/em recommends a good opthamologist for _Castle_, just in case. ;)

I think these changes are a promising start. This won't fix either TA or Archery, but I'm OK with incremental changes. I'm of the opinion that the hurried changes on Test played a substantial role in breaking the sets to start with, and I'll not be so hypocritical as to suggest that we rush the changes again just because they're in our favor this time.

BlackJaguar

04-03-2006, 05:07 PM

This all comes off as "too little, too late." Positron said if Trick Arrow was underperforming on Live, it would be fixed. The fixes listed are either very minor, or bug fixes. When is TA going to get a significant buff?

And the Archery fixes are kind of "meh." Rain of Arrows will be a lot better, but I never had a problem with Fistful of Arrows' animation. Blazing Arrow is my biggest animation problem.

BlackJaguar

04-03-2006, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are still a few more problems

1. Glue arrows recharge is too long for an early dependant on power

2. Flash arrows effect is too small for an early dependant on power.

3. Net arrow, single target immob's are still considered mostly useless except for controllers trying to initiate containment. Animation too long also.

4. acid arrows area is too small.

5. Disruption arrow is 3 times longer recharge and 2/3 the debuff of tar patch.

6. The rest of archery's animations are too long also.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Dysmal

04-03-2006, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This all comes off as "too little, too late." Positron said if Trick Arrow was underperforming on Live, it would be fixed. The fixes listed are either very minor, or bug fixes. When is TA going to get a significant buff?

And the Archery fixes are kind of "meh." Rain of Arrows will be a lot better, but I never had a problem with Fistful of Arrows' animation. Blazing Arrow is my biggest animation problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree. While its nice that the bugs are getting fixed, that doesnt address the fundamental flaws in the design of the set.

CounterParadox

04-03-2006, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Or, I can keep yelling at you in every thread you post to. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

She'll do it, too. She yells at me constantly, even when I SK up to her TA/A so that she can actually finish missions. :p

Valedor

04-03-2006, 06:25 PM

Czar_Bal

04-03-2006, 06:26 PM

This is cool. I knew there was a reason why I didn't delete my Arch?Fire Blaster yet (other than I haven't needed the character slot yet for my altitis). Maybe he will survive the purgng that I have planned for post-I7. ;)

Veazey

04-03-2006, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sky Raider jump bots, when they explode, do lethal/fire damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

A-ha. An exploding something that does fire damage!

Clan_Jericho

04-03-2006, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right now at the higher levels my toon feels almost useless on large teams. I draw more aggro with the AoEs then I can handle, so either I stick to single target attacks that do VERY little damage or I just hope not to die in every fight. Most things die so fast in large groups that the debuffs are almost worthless, and you end up being relegated to a glue and oil machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always think it's hilarious how Manticore actually does stuff in the comic-books. Every time I see him fire a "stunner arrow" into a group of enemies I think "stupid noob, a blaster's gonna hafta come along after you and nuke all those mobs you held."

:p

And what was with Manticore taking out Infernal, Mynx, Ms. Liberty, and Swan all in one shot? Are they f***ing mocking us? A TA/Archery defender can't kill a single regen scrapper...ever! much less a whole group of people with one shot.

It just cracks me up that this game deviates from comic-book superheroism so much that the comic that's based on it doesn't even look like it takes place in the same world.

~Gabriel

Hyper_Man

04-03-2006, 07:22 PM

The last post hits the major problem with all the arrow powers right on. That is for a game that means to replicate the feel of comic-book superheroism, these powers are as far from what an Archer hero as can be, other than the fact the powers use a bow and arrow.

You look at any hero that uses archery as his/her primary form of attack... whether it be in comic books, literature, film, etc... and I will point out the two factors that make them effective as a hero: SPEED and ACCURACY!

Now as things are, Archery and Trick Arrow are some of the slowest attacks out there. Yes, with I7 three powers are having their attack animations shortened. I say this is not enough. ALL arrow-based powers need to be faster. Arrow-attack powers are already weaker than any other based on the fact they are purely Lethal damage, which everyone knows has the most defense and resistance against it. Counteract this by giving the speed they need.

Finally, the point on Accuracy. For an Archery based hero, a miss should be a rarity. Again, citing the heroes for which this game is meant to emulate, a miss for them is very, very uncommon. If it does happen, it is because of extraordinary defenses, abilities, or circumstances happening with their target. So I say adjust the accuracy of arrow-powers to reflect this fact.

Do these two things I suggest, and you will make a person playing a hero who has choosen Archery or Trick Arrow feel like the hero they wish to be.

Primal

04-03-2006, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The last post hits the major problem with all the arrow powers right on. That is for a game that means to replicate the feel of comic-book superheroism, these powers are as far from what an Archer hero as can be, other than the fact the powers use a bow and arrow.

You look at any hero that uses archery as his/her primary form of attack... whether it be in comic books, literature, film, etc... and I will point out the two factors that make them effective as a hero: SPEED and ACCURACY!

Now as things are, Archery and Trick Arrow are some of the slowest attacks out there. Yes, with I7 three powers are having their attack animations shortened. I say this is not enough. ALL arrow-based powers need to be faster. Arrow-attack powers are already weaker than any other based on the fact they are purely Lethal damage, which everyone knows has the most defense and resistance against it. Counteract this by giving the speed they need.

Finally, the point on Accuracy. For an Archery based hero, a miss should be a rarity. Again, citing the heroes for which this game is meant to emulate, a miss for them is very, very uncommon. If it does happen, it is because of extraordinary defenses, abilities, or circumstances happening with their target. So I say adjust the accuracy of arrow-powers to reflect this fact.

Do these two things I suggest, and you will make a person playing a hero who has choosen Archery or Trick Arrow feel like the hero they wish to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear, hear. You and Vox together have summed up the problem very well.

Just go up against a Wyvern Boss some time, to see what Archery can do if it's actually worth a crap. Hell, even the Lts and Minions have insane accuracy...the damage may not be awesome, but their hit rate has got to be at the cap all the time. I swear they never miss.

BallLightning

04-03-2006, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, Castle, with Archery it seems to me that the two biggest problem with the set are too much lethal damage and a lackluster secondary effect. Buffing the acc bonus some and adding in different damage types - like some toxic damage for poison arrowheads or something - would go a long way toward rehabilitating archers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh oh... someone's probably already suggested this but:

Replace one of the powers in the set with a utlity power. Using this power would apply a random secondary affect to the arrows.

Example, you use this power and set all your arrows on fire. You use it and add acid or posion for toxic. Etc etc. This could help with the lethal end of it.

Primal

04-03-2006, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh oh... someone's probably already suggested this but:

Replace one of the powers in the set with a utlity power. Using this power would apply a random secondary affect to the arrows.

Example, you use this power and set all your arrows on fire. You use it and add acid or posion for toxic. Etc etc. This could help with the lethal end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, I like. It could act kinda like those Council guns, that add either cold or fire randomly. I've seen them shoot fire bullets, and then ice bullets right after it. Just extend the possibilities to include toxic and...I dunno, energy. Any projectile can be enhanced, and essentially they all transfer energy. ;)

Seriously, that's a good idea.

Revolver_Law

04-03-2006, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, Castle, with Archery it seems to me that the two biggest problem with the set are too much lethal damage and a lackluster secondary effect. Buffing the acc bonus some and adding in different damage types - like some toxic damage for poison arrowheads or something - would go a long way toward rehabilitating archers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh oh... someone's probably already suggested this but:

Replace one of the powers in the set with a utlity power. Using this power would apply a random secondary affect to the arrows.

Example, you use this power and set all your arrows on fire. You use it and add acid or posion for toxic. Etc etc. This could help with the lethal end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good idea.

detroitfrost

04-03-2006, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are still a few more problems

1. Glue arrows recharge is too long for an early dependant on power

2. Flash arrows effect is too small for an early dependant on power.

3. Net arrow, single target immob's are still considered mostly useless except for controllers trying to initiate containment. Animation too long also.

4. acid arrows area is too small.

5. Disruption arrow is 3 times longer recharge and 2/3 the debuff of tar patch.

6. The rest of archery's animations are too long also.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second that, everything there with the exception of the Animation time, I'm OK with long animation times as long as we get the rest of those buffs.

Rose

04-03-2006, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this power breaks if I look at it crosseyed. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

.....Is that your Signature Power?

Double_Zero

04-03-2006, 11:05 PM

I like the initial changes, but there had best be more changes coming, Castle... Sounds like you've just disappointed most of the Archers out there. We were hoping you'd buff the set to where people actually see TA as a viable Primary and not a freakin' joke.

Other defender sets outdo TA's debuffs with fewer powers that are learned earlier, and the other sets have heals and buffs to further distance themselves from TA. Not only that, the recharge times on TA's powers are frustratingly long, with some of them being early in the set.

Don't stop the music now, Castle. I'm not sure if Positron (A fellow Defender!) is still paying attention to the ill-executed TA problem, but we could really use more buffs.

Bone_Machine

04-03-2006, 11:14 PM

I really like the idea of adding Knockdown to Entangling Arrow. It's nicely thematic and differs greatly from Web Grenade in it's effect.

Major_Zarkette

04-03-2006, 11:57 PM

Trick arrow is seen as the weakest mastermind secondary, much less a defender primary, and with the new patron pools there is little incentive (from a purely power perspective) to take the set. Adding an unreliable sleep to PGA really wont change that.

That snark aside, I really do appreciate you taking the time to inform us of the work you've done, Castle. I'm guessing this was a "fix the powers that didn't do what they said" kinda fix, and that the "fix the powerset that doesn't perform up to expectation" will hopefully come in time.

Starfox_NA

04-04-2006, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

And what was with Manticore taking out Infernal, Mynx, Ms. Liberty, and Swan all in one shot? Are they f***ing mocking us? A TA/Archery defender can't kill a single regen scrapper...ever! much less a whole group of people with one shot.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

They were all grey to him.

[Actually, I am not sure that would help]

Old_Doc

04-04-2006, 02:13 AM

And plz look at the take-out-the-bow-animation. I m (i was, i don t play her anymore because of this problems...) a kin / arch def and when I want to put an arrow power based after a kin one, it takes hours ...

I still believe this set CAN be great, thx _castle_ to look at.

LaEstrella

04-04-2006, 06:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Castle,

Will the endurance reductions for some of the archery powers that you mentioned previously still be going through?

Also, as a "wishlist" type item, I think lowering the animation of all single-target attacks to the speed of Snap Arrow would do wonders for balancing the set. As a previous poster said, the secondary effect of Archery could be Speed and Accuracy, which from a concept point of view is what it should be anyway.

Bard_Medicine

04-04-2006, 08:01 AM

I was so excited when I saw this thread in Dev Digest. Thank God, I thought. The darn set was finally getting fixed.

Without an reference to more improvements coming, this is a huge dissapointment.

Are you devs so far out of touch with this game that you think this is all TA needs? (I have never played Archery set).

I have long since given up on my TA Defender and MM. (Its ok as a controller secondary as it syngerizes nicely). However I feel for these guys. I groan to myself whenever a TA character joins my PUG. It means to me, no matter good of a player this person is, he will not be able to hold up his end.

I'm not asking for you guys to go nuts and do what you did to Dark Miasma, that was clearly overboards, and that set has been slowly pulled back to a reasonable power level.

Add to this that FLash Arrow (a power I liked more than most) is about to get nerfed (not sure how this will balance out with the I7 def changes).

All you TA folks out there, you have my sympathy and a spot on my teams. Fortunatly the game is easy enough for a few a good players with bad powers to not mess up a team.

Shubbie

04-04-2006, 08:32 AM

At least till you get to something like the villian respec or the villian HO trial.

Unlike hami, no dead weight is going to be able to get hami'o viliian side.

QuietAmerican

04-04-2006, 09:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I7 changes:

1) Working on Oil Slick. I think I have the 'oil doesn't always light' bug fixed (hard to tell - it never failed on my box, but it was replicatable here.) I refered the 'wrong team in PvP zones' issue to programming.
2) Poison Gas Arrow -- this should work the same for all AT's now.
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just... just so happy!
I'll be playing the heck out of my Blaster on Champion when this rolls around!

Archery getting some love!

QuietAmerican

04-04-2006, 09:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

... this power breaks if I look at it cross-eyed. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a new temp power.

Cross-eyed.
Your intimidating stare taunts and angers your foe which breaks his concentration at a critical moment.
Interrupt one power. Allowed enhancements, Accuracy buff, Recharge Rate Increase, Confusion, Fear, and Taunt.

V-Tron

04-04-2006, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
have my fingers crossed -- this power breaks if I look at it crosseyed. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

now thats funny

TerraDraconis

04-04-2006, 12:22 PM

Is it bad that my first reaction was "oh god what are they doing to archery/trick arrow now?" Followed by "oh it's from _Castle_ it should be good news."

Actually it does look nice but I am also hoping for more happiness and joy coming Archery/TA's way. The sets need something they simply under perform currently. ::sigh:: And I like my ta/a, I just wish he where more effective and didn't have to out level so many missions so he could do them.

nicosomething

04-04-2006, 01:37 PM

I can't speak from a MM/TA standpoint but I keep hearing about how gimpy TA/A defenders are and I just don't see it. I love my TA/A defender and solo him frequently. He is not the most powerful defender I've played, but he's far from unplayable and my low to zero debt scores tell me he's not too shabby. My biggest complaints have been end cost (being addressed soon) and rate of fire (which will now be addressed). I don't mind the lower damage when the animation speed is increased. And he does hit more often than my dark or electric defenders so the natural accuracy bonus is doing something right. I don't think I'm especially skilled at the game either.

Some people also don't like that there are both the entangling arrow and the ice arrow, I don't see a problem with it. I love my entangling arrow, it recharges fast and I use it all the time when I solo. I string my targets along thanks to it. Ice arrow is for the big guys, it recharges slower, I can't have multiple targets stuck down with it. I use each for different things.

I think Trick Arrows and Archery are underrated and I think the changes being made are exactly the kinds of things I've been hoping for.

Castle

04-04-2006, 01:49 PM

No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.

'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.

BorsKaegel

04-04-2006, 01:49 PM

I'll just be happy if Oil Slick doesn't cause my ninja pets to go crazy and run out of the blaze until it ends. It's a 'friendly fire'! :D

I've reported this as a bug before.

Shubbie

04-04-2006, 01:58 PM

The other problem is that the effect isnt strong enough on alot of the powers for a set with no heals and no buffs.

Flash arrow has less acc debuff than darks HEAL.

Disruption arrow has 2/3 the effect and 3x the recharge of tar patch as well as tar patch having a slow and being much earlier.

Glue arrow needs to be up more often.

Snap shot and Aimed shot need their damage increased if the animation cant be decreased.

The set still needs help.

Dysmal

04-04-2006, 02:00 PM

Good news that you arent done sprucing the set up. Thanks for keeping us informed.

Mystic_Bubble

04-04-2006, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

:eek:WHAT? I LOVE Hawk the Slayer. The elf was awesome!! I'm still waiting for y'all to introduce a crossbow with a magazine clip!!!
:D
-mb

Happy_Thoughts

04-04-2006, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]
The origin-specific temporary powers you get from levels 1 through 9 also do not cause weapon redraws (at least with bows and assault rifles, I haven't personally tested the others). Perhaps this happy accident could be reproduced? :)

BlackJaguar

04-04-2006, 02:55 PM

Pony_

04-04-2006, 03:12 PM

WHAT!!! :confused: I loved that Elf. He sparked alot of my Archer toons in AD&D. IMO, I thought it looked cool for the effects at that time. I dont know why they needed anyone else in that group, he could have done it all solo!! And the other poster was right. Get the magazine clip going. That was off the hook!!

Clintonian

04-04-2006, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aimed Shot looks very cool and the animation time isn't bad at all. Why can't you replace Blazing Arrow and Ice Arrow's animations with that?

It's all well and good to say "these animations look better," but you're missing the point: no one is playing these powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
zing!

Shogun_of_Sorrow

04-04-2006, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

The worst offending clip is where they had the actor jumping over a fallen tree while shooting his bow and repeated it over and over, and then spliced together several takes to try and make it look like he was jumping over the log while firing the bow lots of times. And it looks worse than it sounds.

The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.

scottishhaig

04-04-2006, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.

'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

They need to get that out on DVD ;)

Jade_Dragon

04-04-2006, 03:54 PM

Well, I think I see the problem. The issue here is that not only do you have a draw time on the weapon, you also have a draw time on the AMMO. Which is pretty much unique to Archery. It's probably the reason why it stopped being a military weapon after the development of machine guns.

But this is a superhero. Why can't we have a character like the one from Hawk the Slayer? (And yeah, I thought he was cool too) You don't have to go that fast with every attack, just make it for Snap Shot and a few others, so if you don't want to look that "silly", you can skip it.

Another suggestion would be to draw more than one arrow at a time, and fire them one by one. It would be more complicated to animate, but closer to modern "trick shot" archers in movies like Robin Hood. Or just have a couple of extra arrows in the hand holding the bow, next to the grip.

I don't know if it would be possible to change animation time like that, but it might actually be interesting, and give Archery a unique feel, if you could fire a succession of shots quickly, and then pause a second to "reload". Then again, if you just added a couple of arrows near the grip of the bow you might not need to animate them, their presence would be enough of a suggestion.

Failing that, since Archery is more about marksmanship than other Ranged sets, instead of more damage, how about a chance to Critical? It may step on Scrapper toes, but it's only one set, and would be the same for all levels of foes. (Thus not stepping on WHY the Scrapper has the ability to Critical)

Jade_Dragon

04-04-2006, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, he was pretty fast when he was fighting those robbers in the store in his first appearance. And firing while moving. :) It's only when he stops to aim that he slows down a bit.

If he had to hit three targets in a row really fast, I'm sure Ollie could do it. Then again, he'd probably use Fistful of Arrows. But I'm sure he knows many tricks to help him speed up his shots, including the one I suggested.

Jeffrey_NA

04-04-2006, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aimed Shot looks very cool and the animation time isn't bad at all. Why can't you replace Blazing Arrow and Ice Arrow's animations with that?

It's all well and good to say "these animations look better," but you're missing the point: no one is playing these powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
zing!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, your animations don't look too cool when your PuG laughs at you for picking the archery/arrow set.

Mieux

04-04-2006, 04:06 PM

I am curious about the bug with Oil Slick in PvP where it shows up as a friendly and can't be lit/targeted.

In any event, thanks for taking the time to address people's issues with this set, considering all the other stuff you have to do.

Alodarn

04-04-2006, 04:10 PM

I can't wait for I7 now *squeeeeee*

Almost tempted to hold off playing my archer to get the full benefit of the changes :)

Behrditz

04-04-2006, 04:35 PM

yeah well for those of you who dont know, go to http://www.badmovies.org/movies/hawkslayer/ and at the bottom is a movie. That shows the elf shooting, and the crappiness that "shootin real fast" will look like. Also flouresent bouncy balls as magical effects.

Balanced

04-04-2006, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would it be possible to stop some of the animations (particularly Snap Shot, Fistful of Arrows, and some of the debuffs) from rooting us instead? One of the defining characteristics of the archers from comics is that they're constantly moving, and firing while in motion--look at Speedy, for instance. TA/A already demands that we stay in motion to keep ourselves alive, so why not make it a feature of the sets? Not only would it improve the look and feel of the sets, it might help with the "Here I am, maul me!" problem we encounter while setting up debuffs.

I'd even quit complaining about how pathetically weak the accuracy bonus is compared to other secondary effects. :)

LaEstrella

04-04-2006, 04:43 PM

Mr_Wild

04-04-2006, 04:54 PM

OMG I just watched the video, that is an overexaggeration if I've ever seen one. Taking the animation times down to more reasonable levels like 2 secs or even 1.67 or whatever is not going to make the set look stupid but it will make it perform better. I do like the posters idea about shooting on the run though, that would be acceptable as well, especially since no one can do it through ww anymore.

Jealous_deva

04-04-2006, 06:34 PM

I agree about the recharge issues, could you do a pass on that as well?

Compare say:

glue arrow to lingering radiation.
disruption arrow to tar patch or freezing rain

For some reason, perhaps due to stacking issues, these seem to be based on having significant downtime even with hasten + 6 recharges, and frankly no one can do anywhere close to that anymore.

IMHO all of the debuffs of trick arrow aside from EMP arrow should be up 10 or 20 seconds after the effect is over when slotted with 3 recharges, just as tar patch and freezing rain are.

So:

Glue arrow (recharge is about 1.5x as long as it really should be)

Disruption arrow (recharge is about 1.5x as long as it really should be)

Oil slick arrow (I could understand if this one has a fairly large delay but I think it should be up about half the time with 3 recharges perhaps? So again 1.5x the recharge as it should be?)

Ohms__NA

04-04-2006, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

The worst offending clip is where they had the actor jumping over a fallen tree while shooting his bow and repeated it over and over, and then spliced together several takes to try and make it look like he was jumping over the log while firing the bow lots of times. And it looks worse than it sounds.

The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this all the time with my Archer. Hurdle+Combat Jumping all over the place. Thematically, having the zen-like focus to be flipping all over the place while loosing arrow after arrow is slicker than all get out. Is it something you'd see out of a normal archer character? Nope. Then again, since most folks can't fly or fire bolts of raw energy out of their hands, I think exceptions can be made.

Hyper_Man

04-04-2006, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it was DaVinci who said:

"An Archer must be:
Keen of eye,
Sure of hand,
Fleet of foot,
Canny of mind."

When I imagine an Arrow-power based Hero, that is the feeling I am looking for while I play.

As I said before, I trully feel the two major problems with Archery and Trick Arrow are Accuracy and Speed. _Castle_'s point the animations looking silly as "Hawk, the Slayer" was little off. Snap Shot is WAAAAY slower than anything I saw in that movie. But anything is slower than that. :P If a movie reference for animation speed is what you are looking for, might I suggest Legolas from the LotR films. Much more sensible choice, I say. But that is besides the point. Here is my opinion on the Speed issue: No animation for a bow should take longer than 1.75 secs, with the exception of Ranged Shot. I believe the talented programmers at Cryptic can manage to use that amount of time to make the animations come out right.

Now, Accuracy. This is a major point that needs to be looked at for Archery and Trick Arrow. Archer heroes should NOT miss. Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does. Heck, junior high school girls in gym class can make that kind of shot with a bow consistantly. A heroic archer makes that shot even if he/she was standing on a leevy in New Orleans during Katrina. Unless some major forces are acting upon the archer in question, such as a supervillain's powers for defense, etc; a miss should be a rarity for the Archery hero. Can anyone see a way I am wrong on this point?

WolfWings

04-04-2006, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

In several cases, the animation itself wouldn't have to actually be changed that I can see, the bow simply left out. So at most I believe it would be duplicating an animation and attaching the bow to the hand again? Healing Aura or Heal Other look like they would work just fine if the bow simply wasn't put away, for two obvious though perhaps cliche examples.

Primal

04-04-2006, 08:52 PM

Wow, I had forgotten all about Hawk the Slayer. I saw that years and years ago, back when the station that is now the local Fox station was an independent job. They showed all KINDS of bizarre low-budget stuff late at night, and they never edited anything. I thought the movie was great at the time. Was it really rated R? (EDIT: Nope, PG)

Heh, a trip down memory lane. I'm gonna start crying over Old Yeller any minute now :)

EDIT: Oh my GOD, there is a DVD version! Someone in this thread wanted to know, so here (http://video.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?r=1&ean=759731408424) you go. Only $24.98 for this baby, so place your orders now. ;)

anarchicgorilla

04-04-2006, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I suppose missing someone with a axe mace sword or even a punch at point blank range is for a hero.

In the old batman ty show I remeber things like "pow" "smack" and "bang" when they threw a punch

Not "whiff" "air" and "how the hell did I miss a filing cabinet at point blank range"

Robotech_Master

04-04-2006, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, there were places in the Lord of the Rings movies where Legolas fired arrows significantly faster than is humanly possible--they used CGI for it--and for the most part it looked all right.

Magdi

04-05-2006, 05:54 AM

I liked the look of the Archer speed shooting in Hawk the slayer ( and the crossbow guy as well ) I thought it was bad-arsed looking. Of course.. I was nine years old at the time... :D

ScrewySquirrel

04-05-2006, 06:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Now, Accuracy. This is a major point that needs to be looked at for Archery and Trick Arrow. Archer heroes should NOT miss. Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does. Heck, junior high school girls in gym class can make that kind of shot with a bow consistantly. A heroic archer makes that shot even if he/she was standing on a leevy in New Orleans during Katrina. Unless some major forces are acting upon the archer in question, such as a supervillain's powers for defense, etc; a miss should be a rarity for the Archery hero. Can anyone see a way I am wrong on this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you miss, that's exactly what happened!

as for animations, I think they could all be speeded up. en Snap shot goes off slower than the 2nd power of most blaster sets.

I like the idea of firing on the move as an archery skill, for everything, or everything but snipe.. Should be fore Trick Arrow too.

in trick arrow: Flash arrow needs to be a little bit better off the bat. I shouldn't hav eto stack two flashes to provide a singlifican miss chance. Glue arrow is amazingly slow for what you get for it. yes the area is very large -- about the size of the rain of fire/ice storm slows. But it doesn't do damage, and recycles in twice the time they do. My Ice Blaster can drop an average of 1 ice storm a fight, my TA/Archery defender gets to do Glue only once every other fight.

I haven't gotetn up high enough to see what other powers are like, but you've seen them here.

if and when customized powers comes about, I'd like to see the archery sets get a longbow (what it has now), Crossbow, and Japanese style bow (where you hold it 1/3 from the bottom instead of in the center....but thats an I8, I9 maybe I10 issue

Great_Beyond

04-05-2006, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.

'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

They need to get that out on DVD ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like this? (http://www.deepdiscountdvd.com/dvd.cfm?itemID=HEN004084)

GuiltTrip

04-05-2006, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
WHAT!!! :confused: I loved that Elf. He sparked alot of my Archer toons in AD&D. IMO, I thought it looked cool for the effects at that time. I dont know why they needed anyone else in that group, he could have done it all solo!! And the other poster was right. Get the magazine clip going. That was off the hook!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is everyone so in love with Crow? GOrt may have been small for a giant, but in some scenes in the background he was just as fast as Crow.

I'm truelly scared by the number of people that remember this wonderfully horrible movie. Who can forget the super balls, and rubber arrows. And Jack Palance was amazing in his role of Voltar. The really scarey thing is I had college friends that made a Hawk the Slayer II trailer for a film class.

To stay a bit on topic. I used to love my Ice/TA Controller, until ED hit. Without perma hasten some powers recharges are just painful. I'm still amazed that TA remains the only set to get heavily nerfed after showing up on test. How it got neutered before it went live, when Stalkers and Plant Dominators made it in tact to live is beyond me.

Happy_Thoughts

04-05-2006, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in trick arrow: Flash arrow needs to be a little bit better off the bat. I shouldn't hav eto stack two flashes to provide a singlifican miss chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you're partnered up with another TA user, because you cannot stack this power by yourself; subsequent applications overwrite previous ones.

QuietAmerican

04-05-2006, 09:33 AM

OK
First fanboy, then comment.

_castle_ you are the man! I've followed you thought so many other powers, and now your tackling my favorite! So happy. oh sooo happy...

Comment...
Why does the toon have to draw anything? Everything's kept in "Hammer Space” Its not like the Bow is strung over the shoulder, or the arrows are in a quiver.

Why doesn't the bow just appear ready to fire an arrow then all the animation has to do is raise it and shoot?
Then, next attack, the arrow appears when the bowstring is pulled back again.

Before I get hit with Role-play pie… I like role-play as much as the next. Drawing my trick arrow from its appropriate quiver slot.. . taking aim.. . Holding until I see the whites in their eyes, say a pithy phrase and LET LOOSE… BAM! Cool!

But that’s not this game. It would be nice if the pulling from the quiver were cool, but when it helps game play, baby, bathwater.. bye -bye.

Forget the quiver... I would rather have the arrow draw from the bow, then to have "Hammer Space" behind my back.

Pulling the arrows out of an invisible quiver always seamed much-ado-about-nothing. Like shoelaces on flip-flops.

Sith_Rose

04-05-2006, 09:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OMG I just watched the video, that is an overexaggeration if I've ever seen one. Taking the animation times down to more reasonable levels like 2 secs or even 1.67 or whatever is not going to make the set look stupid but it will make it perform better. I do like the posters idea about shooting on the run though, that would be acceptable as well, especially since no one can do it through ww anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose now would be a bad time to mention that the good archers of old militaries fired approximately 12 arrows per minute...resulting in an draw and fire time of...let me see...60 divided by 12 is 5 seconds. Wait, isn't that the current average animation time for Archery/TA?

Yes, I know this is supposed to have a comic book feel, not an antique military weapons buff feel.

Primal

04-05-2006, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.

'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.

Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

They need to get that out on DVD ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like this? (http://www.deepdiscountdvd.com/dvd.cfm?itemID=HEN004084)

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, that's cheaper than B&N. The temptation to pick it up is strong.

I like how the CASE is considered a "special feature". That + interactive menus (as opposed to...?) = an offer one can't refuse. ;)

Mystic_Bubble

04-05-2006, 11:12 AM

Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.

-mb

KarmaKollapse_NA

04-05-2006, 11:24 AM

The truth is, the shocking truth is, the reason why TA/A is currently in it's perceived state of suckiness is this...

Archers are just so much more sexy than everyone else.

To balance for their immediate sex appeal, they simply have to have heavy recharge times, horrible powers like Entangling and Flash, and debuffs that aggro everyone in the area.

The truth has been revealed.

- Karma, player of a Level 29 TA/A on Champion.

QuietAmerican

04-05-2006, 11:32 AM

I'm too sexy for my quiver, too sexy for my quiver, I'm just too sexy.

Hammer Space...
Not sure where I heard it from. I think a PC Gamer Mag talked about it. Its that space where things appear from when you don't have them in your visible inventory.

Its an old term, Everquest or Baldur's Gate time. Instantly pulling out your +6 Two Handed War Hammer from your backpack or beltpouch inventory.

Bard_Medicine

04-05-2006, 11:53 AM

Whats really sticking in my craw (sp?) about this is no mention of Entangleing Arrow. This is the worst "Must Take" power in the entire game (for MM and COntroller version).

Horrid animation time compounded with a delay between hitting and the effect actually going off.

THe other single target immobilizes do either damage (nothing too great, but still helps) or have -recharge (like web grenade). And none seem to suffer the same effect lag, nor have the animation time (which I assume is compenstaed for with +ACC).

Look at the thread in General on worst power sets. Is their any debate this is the worst Defender Primary and MM secondary? (Controller version is arguable with the nice second hold syngery and the containment benefit of Entangleing Arrow)

I appreciate Castle coming here and speaking on it, but how long does it take to see, "Wow this Power Set stinks? Let me look at each power for one hour and see how it can be brought up to par". Is one day too much time to ask to fix a portion of your game which is desperatly needing?

Rush_Bolt

04-05-2006, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.
-mb

[/ QUOTE ]
Anime.

In various anime series, a female character would smash a fellow character (usually male) with a large hammer for doing something wrong/foolish/etc. The hammer is comically large and therefore could not be hidden on the female (usually petite) character's body.

Therefore, it's said that the hammer is stored in an other-dimensional space when not in use. This space is commonly refered to as "hammer space"

Balanced

04-05-2006, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.

-mb

[/ QUOTE ]
Hammerspace is the strange extradimensional space from which cartoon/comic/animated/game characters produce objects that they clearly didn't have before (notably signs, weapons, bombs, and huge wooden mallets). The idea has been around for ages, but it's been called various things--the old Toon RPG had rules that covered pulling things from "your back pocket" (even if your character had no pockets, or, indeed, no clothes). Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace) suggests that the convergence on "hammerspace" as the standard term is mostly due to the influence of anime fans, particularly those of Ranma 1/2, which featured a girl who frequently pulled giant mallets out of nowhere to whack guys who annoyed her. (This behavior is, of course, not unique to Ranma.)

ScrewySquirrel

04-05-2006, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.

-mb

[/ QUOTE ]

It comes from the ability of Anime girls to, out of nowhere, summon a hammer to whack their wayward boyfriends with.

Hammerspace is notional place all those hammers are stored. Its also where Bugs Bunny gets anvils to drop on Elmer, where the Highlander keeps his sword, ad so on.

QuietAmerican

04-05-2006, 03:37 PM

Wow three post, all alike! All in a row! "Hammer Space!" "Hammer Time!" Can't touch this!

Tormentoso

04-05-2006, 05:15 PM

"Hammer Space!" "Hammer Time!"

Sunchild

04-06-2006, 03:01 PM

While you're at it...
------------------------------------------------------
OK here's the data for the home audience.

GLUE ARROW______________SNOW STORM
LVL 2 Trick Arrow___________LVL 2 Storm Summoning
Range: 60_________________Range: 80
Activation: 2.67 secs________Activation: 2.03 secs
Cost: 7.8__________________Cost: .47762
Duration: 30 secs____________Duration: infinite (toggle)
Recharge: 120 secs___________Recharge: 10 secs
Effect: -Recharge, -Spd________Effect: -Recharge, -Spd

Ok, quick analysis...

First off, why the heck does it take only 10 seconds for Storm Summoning to recharge, while it takes 2 minutes for Glue Arrow???

Secondly, why the heck does Glue Arrow have a longer activation time, have no clear advantage to end cost, and have shorter range???

Finally, why the heck is Snow Storm infinite in duration toggle, while Glue Arrow has 30 seconds of fame. In retrospect, without Stamina or any End Reduction SOs, Snow Storm could cost 400% more END before it outstrips the BASE END Recovery.

In summary, we all know Trick Arrow is a bit weak, but this is unreal. This set needs to be thrown a bone and this is just one example of how bad this set really is (especially a set without healing). Sure, I love my Stormie, but when I started my Bowman, the first thing I said was, "[censored] is up with the recharge on Glue Arrow? Don't the Devs realize this same power is available ALL the time on my Stormie???"

Oh yes, I know every power should be different, but these two powers are the same, except one is available all the time and can last an infinite duration, while the other is um, different.

Cheers,

SUN

Predicant

04-06-2006, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem isn't the animation movements quite so much as the "stand there and hold still" before and after drawing. That, and the fact that somehow the bow strings issued by Freedom Corps must be really noisy, since with cloaking device and group invisibility mobs can still sometimes hear me pull back the bow string and will start attacking before the arrow ever even fires.

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that wasn't the inspiration for the Archery primary??? Darn, there goes my hope for the Full-Auto Archery Epic...

BlueWrecker

04-06-2006, 04:09 PM

Just a thought. The other thing about archers is their fluid mobility. See how Green Arrow is in Justice League Unlimited, or Legolas in the movies. Always moving and shooting.

Would simply removing the rooted aspect from all powers in Trick Arrow and Archery--as something unique to this set--be enough to overcome it's other weaknesses? I.e., leave everything relatively as is, maybe shorten some recharges at most: but lose the rooted. Let the archers dash about.

Or would that be too powerful?

Predicant

04-06-2006, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would simply removing the rooted aspect from all powers in Trick Arrow and Archery--as something unique to this set--be enough to overcome it's other weaknesses? I.e., leave everything relatively as is, maybe shorten some recharges at most: but lose the rooted. Let the archers dash about.

Or would that be too powerful?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that would be a bit too powerful (hard to say for sure, but I'm certain there would be PvP complaints by those no longer able to freely prey upon archers). But there is one animation that could be reduced in duration that would have absolutely no effect on "animation aesthetics" and would do a great deal towards improving the set. Reduce the animation (not recharge time) and "dead time" for the Archery version of AIM.

Shubbie

04-06-2006, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem isn't the animation movements quite so much as the "stand there and hold still" before and after drawing. That, and the fact that somehow the bow strings issued by Freedom Corps must be really noisy, since with cloaking device and group invisibility mobs can still sometimes hear me pull back the bow string and will start attacking before the arrow ever even fires.

[ QUOTE ]
If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that wasn't the inspiration for the Archery primary??? Darn, there goes my hope for the Full-Auto Archery Epic...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is as long as they are, I dont care how pretty they are when only 50 people are playing them.

It doesnt make sense that you should put aesthetics before functionality.

Sunchild

04-06-2006, 09:18 PM

More food for thought as I continue to flip back and forth between my Storm Fender and my TA Fender...

The real problem is every useful TA power is on lay-away... I want to use them more, but they aren't there for me.

Recharges
45secs Poison Gas Arrow
120secs Glue Arrow
120secs Disruption Arrow
180secs Oil Slick Arrow
300secs EMP Arrow

Compared to Storm... Trick Arrow's average recharge times are 200-400% greater! Sure these are different powers, but I'm a hero and I like to USE MY POWERS. Storm's recharges are much faster (even if you ignore the bottom 4 powers):

Recharges
8 secs Gale
4 secs O2
10 secs Snow Storm
15 secs Steamy Mist
60 secs Freezing Rain
10 secs Hurricane
45 secs Thunder Clap
60 secs Tornado
90 secs Lightning Storm

Yeah, I know, can't compare apples to oranges, but I really think the biggest flaw for a set wtih NO HEALING, is that none of its powers are readily available. It's like you wait for every bloody power you need (even if it's inferior or not very effective).

Cheers,

SUN

Young_Arrow

04-07-2006, 06:13 AM

I think Archers (blasters) are the weakest Blaster power I know because I Have a lv 35 archer and he does alot less damage than my other counter parts I think this should be looked into and alos I would like to see some beter attacks the ones that we already have seem soo boring and rain of arrows is our special but it looks soo normal why cant it be like Blazing rain of arrows or something like that make it more fun for archers to show off their moves

Happy_Thoughts

04-07-2006, 06:22 AM

Blaster damage directly corresponds to usage of punctuation. Mystery solved!

Quixotik

04-07-2006, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the changes, but it doesn't address the core problem with Archery. No Secondary Effect damage mitigation and only average damage with only one Cone attack other than the Rain of Arrows. Damage mitigation is extremely important in the ED-ified version of CoH for Blasters.

Anyway, I'll throw some solutions you're way.

1.) Make Archery higher damage than other Blaster sets.
2.) Make Archery attacks 100 meter Range or higher.
3.) Make Archery attacks cause DoT damage from wounding.

Any one of these three changes would make Archery Blast play as well as, but not better than the other Blaster Primaries because Archery has no Damage Mitigation like all the other Blaster sets do. No Damage Mitigation means the Archery Blaster takes every attack on the chin with no let up until all attackers are defeated. This can be literally 5 times as much damage, or more, sustained by Archery Blasters in fights than other Blasters face. Think about it. If I knock a target down once, it loses two attacks. I knock it down again. It gets one attack off, but loses two more. If it's a minion, it won't be getting up. Something bigger, it will get up and probably be harder to knock down, but, you get the idea. Archery gets none of that. The Archer just gets hit by every attack, mez, stun, that gets thrown it's way and dies very quickly because of it.

Thanks.

Sunchild

04-07-2006, 10:47 AM

1.) Make Archery higher damage than other Blaster sets.
2.) Make Archery attacks 100 meter Range or higher.
3.) Make Archery attacks cause DoT damage from wounding.
--------------------

1) Agreed
2) Agreed
3) Agreed

In summary, the Devs could implement TWO of the THREE suggested changes and it still wouldn't cause envy in the ICE/x community. That should tell you something right there...

Cheers,

SUN

Tipop

04-07-2006, 01:11 PM

Here's a suggestion for a unique and useful secondary effect; Have all the blaster Archery powers include a very short disorient effect. The target(s) are stunned for a moment from the impact.

This would give Archery blasters the ability to start a fight with an AE power (usually death for a blaster on a team), minimizing the return alpha strike. In addition, it would help drop toggles on troubesome lieutenants like Storm Shamans, Tsoo Sorcerers, etcetera, and act as fairly effective damage mitigation if they slot for disorient duration.

It might be too powerful in PvP, though, since it would drop toggles on all squishies. What do you all think?

Luminara

04-07-2006, 01:24 PM

I'd be satisfied just doing the same knockdown that CoT Archers do with their crossbows. Given the amount of time I've spent flat on my back because of them, I darn sure know it'd be an effective secondary for my attacks.

Linuial

04-07-2006, 03:41 PM

_Castle_ ? Wish list? Puleeeeeeze....?

I want an archery/archery blaster. Plain and simple. So I can use my secondaries and not put away the bow, which looks incredibly stupid.

Or make it so that the devices animation is synergistic with archery. You throw grenades with one hand, why can't you just keep your bow in the other?

But I really, really, really want an archery/archery blaster. Until you give me one, I'm going to continue playing my gimped TA/archery def, slotted and played like a blaster. So, there. [whimper]

Linuial

04-07-2006, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay noted.

That being so....why can't you give us an archery/TA blaster????

So I can quit playing my TA/archery def like she was a gimped blaster instead.

Shubbie

04-07-2006, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay noted.

That being so....why can't you give us an archery/TA blaster????

So I can quit playing my TA/archery def like she was a gimped blaster instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know Trick arrow would make a better blaster secondary that defender primary its so bad.

Quixotik

04-08-2006, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay noted.

That being so....why can't you give us an archery/TA blaster????

So I can quit playing my TA/archery def like she was a gimped blaster instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know Trick arrow would make a better blaster secondary that defender primary its so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya know... I think Trick Arrow was designed to be a Controller Secondary..... which meant it had to be a Defender Primary. Still I think a modified Trick Arrow... we'll call it Tactical Arrow for now... could possibly solve alot of Archery's shortcomings.

The_Mannequin

04-08-2006, 08:58 AM

Honestly, Archery blasters I don't have a problem with, save for endurance sucking. I did have a TA/Archery defender, and found I had to play him as a blaster, which didn't work very well. Biggest issues I've got with the TA set....

--Flash arrow seems rather worthless to take for what it can do and it's endurance cost.
--poison gas arrow I respec out of, because it just didn't seem to work five percent of the time.
--glue arrow had a painfully long recharge time.

With the bad there is some good. Ice arrow is good, but it has a very quick duration. It seems to simply slow down a target, hold them for ten seconds and then it's gone.

_Wolfen

04-14-2006, 12:35 PM

I didn't wade through this whole set sorry, scanned a few pages.

Is JUST Defender Trick arrow getting pluses, or the shared Defender/blaster set also getting some love?

Rush_Bolt

04-14-2006, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't wade through this whole set sorry, scanned a few pages.
Is JUST Defender Trick arrow getting pluses, or the shared Defender/blaster set also getting some love?

[/ QUOTE ]
As per _Castle_'s original post, Archery will be getting a slight buff:

[ QUOTE ]
3) Archery: Fistful of Arrows, Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is assumed to affect all versions of Archery, so yes, Blasters will benefit as well. And this is of course along with the previously stated End Reduction for the early Archery attacks as well.

SOCKERROCKER

04-18-2006, 03:48 PM

What I would love to see is other Trick Arrow MMs besides Ninjas/TR. (Made mainly because new players feel it fits their build) Out of all the MM secondarys, Trick Arrow is by far the most over-looked. As mentioned, their debuffs are not nearly strong enough. (Flash Arrow to name one...) From what I've heard, the Dark Miasma heal debuff accurcay more than Flash Arrow does... (I may have been misinformed)

I like the holds but the animation time kinda makes it useless... By the time I get the attack off (And you add in the little delay before the hold takes affect) the enemy is either dead or right in my face.

Other power sets have the same debuffs with half the powers. I would take Radiation Infection and Enervating Field from Rad Emission over the entire TA set. Because the set has NOTHING but debuffs/holds, it should be one of the best sets for debuffs/holds. If you sacrifice buffing powers and heals, the set should make up for that by being a great debuff set.

I also have to aggree with a few of the other people that commented on the set. Trick Arrow, at first glance, appears to be a mini-troller set. And I like the idea. A set to make Defenders/MMs kinda like controllers/dominators. But the holds aren't good enough. Entangling Arrow is probably the worst immobilize power. Give it something to make it good. A def debuff would make the power very appealing.(Even if it's only a small one) It was already said but Glue Arrow's recharge is a bit... excessive...

I love the TR idea but I would like to see it made better. Here's praying for I7... Keep your fingers crossed...

Ohms__NA

04-18-2006, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ya know... I think Trick Arrow was designed to be a Controller Secondary.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 'cause it would match up so well with the Controller's arrow-based primary powerset. Uhm... yeah. TA is Devices-on-a-stick plain and simple. It never should've been a Defender primary. Defenders should've gotten Sonics, Blasters Archery, and Controller, Scrappers and Tankers unique primary and secondaries of their own.

BlueWrecker

04-18-2006, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ya know... I think Trick Arrow was designed to be a Controller Secondary.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 'cause it would match up so well with the Controller's arrow-based primary powerset. Uhm... yeah. TA is Devices-on-a-stick plain and simple. It never should've been a Defender primary. Defenders should've gotten Sonics, Blasters Archery, and Controller, Scrappers and Tankers unique primary and secondaries of their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they should have. Archery is a comics staple.

The problem is that the base values, numbers, recharges, etc. on the set were set inappropriately low by the Devs when the powerset was launched, making it the weakest BY FAR of all defender, controller, and mastermind sets.

I would love to hear the development rationale for setting the strength of the powers so "low".

Midnite_NA

04-19-2006, 06:40 PM

I like the idea of shooting on the move for TA/A. :D

JumpyMonkey2

04-20-2006, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
_Castle_ ? Wish list? Puleeeeeeze....?

I want an archery/archery blaster. Plain and simple. So I can use my secondaries and not put away the bow, which looks incredibly stupid.

Or make it so that the devices animation is synergistic with archery. You throw grenades with one hand, why can't you just keep your bow in the other?

But I really, really, really want an archery/archery blaster. Until you give me one, I'm going to continue playing my gimped TA/archery def, slotted and played like a blaster. So, there. [whimper]

[/ QUOTE ]

I went with your idea: New Blaster Secondary: Bow Mastery (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5331602&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#5331602)