Why you should go build a Kinetics/Sonics defender

[Clan_Jericho]

Ok, some of you will already know this. No doubt you figured it out on your own. This isn't for you. This is for those who aren't numbers people.

So, why should you build a kinetics/sonics defender?

Kinetics is an awesome primary. It has a lot of utility: two built-in travel powers that totally negate the need to take a travel pool; a self-speed buff that lets you nearly perma-Hasten; and a bunch of team and personal buffs that put everyone at the damage cap. But it's the offensive buffs that I'm going to talk about.

Sonics is generally panned for its lousy sound fx. True, they're horrible. However, it has one thing going for it: damage resistance debuffs built into every attack. Because you're a defender, the damage resistance debuffs will be more effective for you than for a sonics blaster. What this means, in short, is that every one of your blasts will increase the damage of any subsequent hits to that(or those) enemy(-ies) by 15% for a short while - about 7 seconds, I'd say.

So, the numbers. You're a defender, so your damage scale is 0.65 in comparison to the blaster's 1.00. Let's compare our prospective kin/sonic to an electric blaster AFTER buffs/debuffs are accounted for.

You're at 0.65. The multiplier starts out at 1.95 to account for 3-slotted damage. Now let's pad our test by assuming that Siphon Power is only being applied twice - which is easy to achieve after you get Siphon Speed at level 6. That puts you at 2.45. Let's also estimate low and say that on average you'll only get a single application of your -res debuffs - where in reality it's not too hard to stack. So any damage you do is increased by 15%.

The blaster is at 1.00. Our multiplier starts at 1.95...and ends at 1.95. Don't worry, I'll account for Build-Up and Aim later.

So, for the kin/sonic: 0.65 x 2.45 x 1.15 = 1.831
For the blaster: 1.00 x 1.95 = 1.95

Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.

Now, let's give blasters their fair chance. Let's include burst damage.

Defender: 0.65 x 2.95 x 1.5 = 2.205
Blaster: 1.00 x 3.5745 = 3.575

So, the blaster can outdamage you when he needs to. Good, because he's about to get trounced.

Let's calculate for the best-case, high-level scenario for both ATs. This means Fulcrum Shift, Aim, and stacked debuffs for the Defender, and...well, just Aim and Build-Up for the Blaster.

Defender: 0.65 x 4.00 x 1.3 = 3.38
Blaster: 1.00 x 3.575 = 3.575

.... Yes, you're reading that correctly. You'll be doing, sustainably, the same damage that the Blaster can only do with both Aim and Build-Up; both of which are only up about 1/4 of the time.

Now, I haven't taken into account many factors. I have not factored in Siphon Speed. I have not factored in the two extra powers gained by not needing to take a travel pool. I have not calculated the benefit to your team of Speed Boost, Siphon Power, Transfusion, Transference, and Fulcrum Shift. That those powers can easily double the damage output of a team is a matter of statistical fact, and I have not accounted for them. I have only addressed your personal damage potential.

So. You should go roll a Kinetics/Sonics defender. Your damage will rival that of a blaster, and ultimately surpass it. Your buffs, debuffs, heals, and movement powers will make you an unequaled boon to any team you join.

Do it soon, because the devs are probably going to nerf us.

~Gabriel

Disclaimer: I have not mentioned that blaster have those wonderful melee attacks. Before you go claiming that those will allow the blaster to ultimately outdamage the defender, let me remind you that the Kinetics/Sonics defender is always operating at 100% potential, where a blaster is only able to boost himself above 1.95 twice every 45 seconds. Even with the additional attacks, the blaster will be outpaced. Also, remember that blasters have no defense to speak of. Kinetics defenders have heal, debuff, and endurance recovery powers.

[MissDemeanor]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specious conclusion. Your premise includes two (2) siphon powers at all times. That means your attack chain is roughly half as efficient as the blaster's...because you need to toss a SP in there throughout your chain to keep yourself doubled.

The rest of your thesis suffers from similar logic errors...but then most class v class comparisons do tend to ignore the little details in order to do a little nerf herding.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift... Hmmmmmmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specious conclusion. Your premise includes two (2) siphon powers at all times. That means your attack chain is roughly half as efficient as the blaster's...because you need to toss a SP in there throughout your chain to keep yourself doubled.

The rest of your thesis suffers from similar logic errors...but then most class v class comparisons do tend to ignore the little details in order to stretch to cover the premise in order to do a little nerf herding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't ignoring any details. Note that I didn't intimate parity - I merely pointed out that your damage scale was within a hair's breadth. My conclusion for post-32 damage is much more final, and it is supportable.

First of all, a single Fulcrum Shift takes you to the cap. No real diminution of attack chain for that. The sonic debuffs are automatic to the attacks, so no time lost to those. Siphon Speed need only be cast once every 60 seconds to maintain (though stacking it is a good idea). Also, my end thesis includes the fact that Siphon Speed makes the Defender's attack chain much more efficient than that of the blaster - which is to say, your high-BI attacks will comprise a greater portion of the attack chain.

If you're going to call me illogical, back it up by pointing out specific fallacies. If you don't then you're simply trolling.

~Gabriel

[hepheastus]

I'm not even going to question you math.... because Simply put... I don't care. But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "geat" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.

[hepheastus]

Oh and by the way... those travel powers.

superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.

and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.

[Starfox_NA]

The Kinetics/Sonic is awesome, no question about that. However, it has a couple of serous disadvantages.

* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift

* Sonics lacks the powers to form a real attack chain. You can fill it out with melee pool attacks, but those won't debuff resistance.

[Tuft__NA]

[ QUOTE ]

and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Siphon speed is really good for two things: (A) Giving Hover a tolerable speed, now that you no longer can 6-slot it, and (B) slowing down opponents who otherwise run all over the map.

[BanzaiBadger]

[ QUOTE ]
* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift


[/ QUOTE ]

Which'll go nicely with Sonics sleep cone attack :)

[Dalantia]

Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[Dr_Darkspeed]

Also, you left out defiance.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you left out defiance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my, I nearly busted a rib! You should take that act on the road. :)

~Gabriel :p

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Siphon speed is really good for two things: (A) Giving Hover a tolerable speed, now that you no longer can 6-slot it, and (B) slowing down opponents who otherwise run all over the map.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, you and I disagree there. Siphon Speed has a nice +recharge component, which is very useful in combination with Hasten. This also solves the problem of Sonics not being very good at maintaining an attack chain. Stacked Siphon Speed + Hasten + a rechred in each attack is mighty fine.

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and by the way... those travel powers.

superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.

and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaningless at high levels, when everyone caps accuracy anyway.

At least, I cap accuracy at high levels. If other people don't, that's their problem. ;)

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "great" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, surpassing blaster damage levels. And I don't think they're going to nerf anything else. Fulcrum Shift has been the best power in the game forever, and it hasn't been nerfed. And given their recent unwillingness to nerf Energy Melee despite its overwhelming superiority in PvP, I think their nerfing days are done.

Of course, if they want to prove me wrong then I'm more than willing to thumb my nose at them - and cheekily to boot. :)

~Gabriel

[GenericVillain]

Yer wrong, obviously you want to make a sonic/kin corrupter for real damage output :p

All the fun of capped damage, with scorge! With a higher base damage I think, but I dunno about that.

[generichero234]

You do know that if something adds 100% damage. You don't x 1.00....you x 2.

[Teklord]

Solo a blaster will outdamage your kin/sonic. With hasten and three recharges in aim and bu, I have them up almost all the time. My AoEs are better than Sonics. Blaze is better than shout. Fireblast is better than shriek. Bonesmasher is better than shout.

The extra damage in my base BI more makes up for the extra buffing you do. In addition that buffing takes time. In the same time you buff, I will have killed most if not all the spawn.

I love kinetics. I should since I started the Pinball Wizards an all kinetic SG back in August. They are one amazing SG. And in a team we ROCK, you should have heard us laughing at this scrapper who was posturing during a TF we were on. We were nice and kept the laughter to Teamspeak.

But solo, the time element takes its toll. OTOH a kin/sonic has impressive capabilities and is a ton of fun. But it isn't a tank mage.
-Teklord

[Bill Z Bubba]

I have no intention of arguing the merits of a kin/son build. I bet that'd be a hoot to play.

You make a good case, but I'm pretty sure that over X period of time, my sonic/energy blapper is going to out-damage you. Youv'e got nothing in your repetoire to keep up with energy punch, bone smasher and total focus.

As for the no defense side of things, I'll have tough and body armor stacked (around 24%dam-res to s/l), CJ for a touch of defense, 3slotted health, power thrust to keep enemies out of melee range and stun to stop enemies from hitting me in the first place. Looks like I'll be able to fit in Aid Self as well. (My very first character that will be allowed to take it.)

[Amy_Amp]

[ QUOTE ]
The Kinetics/Sonic is awesome, no question about that. However, it has a couple of serous disadvantages.

* You need to be at melee range to fully benefit from Fulcum Shift

* Sonics lacks the powers to form a real attack chain. You can fill it out with melee pool attacks, but those won't debuff resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Kins will largely be in melee/close combat anyway. Also makes Shout's range a non-issue.

2. Lack of attack chain on a Kin? Seriously? Grab the three single target blast, Howl, and Screech. Toss in Siren's Song as needed and you'll never lack for an attack unless hit with -recharge. There are a number of times where I can get by with 3-4 attacks on my Kin.

[MissDemeanor]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call me illogical, back it up by pointing out specific fallacies. If you don't then you're simply trolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did--your statment that indicates a kinetic's damage is equivalent to a blasters--"that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters"--ignores the very important detail of a less efficient attack chain, and much less AOE potential. It isn't within a hair's breadth, and no juggling of the numbers will make it so.

Impressive for a defender? Of course it is. Ubar Death Smash Highest DPS? Nope, it isn't.

[Arc_Salvo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even going to question you math.... because Simply put... I don't care. But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "geat" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, ZOMG, v1g1l4nc3 sux, u R msut BUFF D3F3nD4rZ, d3vz!1!!!!!111! :mad: :mad: :mad:


See what I just did? You've got to be doing more of that and less of this "my defender can do almost Blaster damage, and can self-heal, self-endurance heal, and have a second recharge buff besides hasten AND debuff his enemies"

Anyhow, I don't know that a Kin/Sonic can outdo all Blasters (AOE's are a factor that limit Sonic's potential, and a more efficient attack chain that Blasters can have + blaps can be a compensating factor)

But I do see that a Kin/Sonic can be very close to a Blaster (and better than some) with all the buff/debuff advantages you specified.

Heck, just when I read your title, I though about 3/4s of the stuff you talked about in your post before even reading it, given how prone I am to thinking of how to min/max with various sets, and how more min/maxed sets compare to less min/maxed sets and in what situations. And I agree with many of your points, and honestly believe that despite having lower hitpoints, a Kin/Sonic defender can quite possibly be a better overall soloer than a Blaster.

Anyhow, I don't know if the devs'll nerf either Kin/ or /Sonic for defenders, as those sets are balanced the way they are when combined with any other set.

Same way I know they probably won't nerf Fire/ or /Fire for tanks, even though a Fire/Fire Tank (or Brute) can give a Blaster damage a run for its money (Fire/Fire Brutes give BLAPPERS a run for their money, and with powerful aoe to boot!) because they're balanced when combined with other primaries or secondaries.

Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.

[Pilcrow]

Kinetics sonics is a very nice build, but...

<ul type="square"> "a self-speed buff that lets you nearly perma-Hasten" - Requires double-stacked Siphon Speed to get a near hasten (5/7) boost. Also requires SOs to double stack this.
"Let's compare our prospective kin/sonic to an electric blaster AFTER buffs/debuffs are accounted for" - Ummm, why not compare to a sonic blaster for the most reasonable comparison? Electric is the lowest damage set AFAIK.
"Now let's pad our test by assuming that Siphon Power is only being applied twice - which is easy to achieve after you get Siphon Speed at level 6." - Siphon speed is only a 25% boost until you get SOs. I think you'll need some Rech DOs in Siphon Power on top of Siphon Speed to keep this double stacked.
"So, for the kin/sonic: 0.65 x 2.45 x 1.15 = 1.831. For the blaster: 1.00 x 1.95 = 1.95. Hmmm. So, your sustainable damage as a kin/sonic defender - that is, your personal sustainable damage - is within a hair's breadth of the blasters. And this is before level 32 and Fulcrum Shift" - Only if you ignore that it takes 15-20 seconds to get double stacked Siphon Power, and that you are spending 2/15 seconds casting siphon Power and 2/30 seconds casting Siphon Speed. That's 3/15 of 1/5 of your cast time going to buffing yourself. Which makes the 1.831 much more like 1.465. A little less, actually, when you take into account the first 15 seconds of each combat being done without double-stacked Siphon Power.
[/list]

Your post-fulcrum analysis is close enough to reality that I shan't quibble with it, other than to note that the Blaster's judicious use of his "nova" over the next 8 levels while the Offender is busy getting it/slotting it up will make up for some of that supposed gap in sustained damage.

Another thing worthy of note is that you need to close to melee to cap yourself with fulcrum - which means that the Blasters melee is more relevant than your time spent discussing it would imply.

I would concur that there is no Offender build better than a KIN/SONIC. But it doesn't really begin to push the envelope before 32, and will not really exceed most Blasters in a fair comparison until 38-40, which isn't to far from where a Blaster starts to get a hold of some protection via APPs.

I'd encourage people to roll one, they're fun, but your presentation is a bit skewed, making the Offender seem more effective than he really is and the Blaster less effective than he really is when they both take the same kinds of risks to max their damage potential (closing to melee for at least part of the combat, for example).

[Fulmens]

You missed the real reason to make a Kin/Sonic:

So I can put one on the team with my Blaster and get all the bonuses with a 50% higher Brawl.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
You missed the real reason to make a Kin/Sonic:

So I can put one on the team with my Blaster and get all the bonuses with a 50% higher Brawl.

[/ QUOTE ]
And a higher cap to boot!

[Clan_Jericho]

Pilcrow, I don't think my presentation was all that off. To wit:

- Nearly or equal to blaster damage (not damage over time, perhaps, but per hit).

- Powerful AoE heal.

- Infinite endurance post-28 via Transference.

- Siphon Speed. Needs no comment, yes?

- etc.

All in all, what I was attempting to underline was the fact that this combination can do everything (except AoE damage, really). It has the staying power of a regen scrapper, the damage of a blaster (or nearly), and the team-buffs and utility of a radiation defender to boot.

To be honest, the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assumed that much of my audience would already be in the know, so I figured I might as well have fun with it. Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it. ;)

~Gabriel

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Pilcrow, I don't think my presentation was all that off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, your pre-fulcrum analysis was.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, what I was attempting to underline was the fact that this combination can do everything (except AoE damage, really).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.

[ QUOTE ]
It has the staying power of a regen scrapper

[/ QUOTE ]

Hyperbole

[ QUOTE ]
the damage of a blaster (or nearly)

[/ QUOTE ]

When solo post fulcrum. On a team a fulcrumed blaster will outpace them significantly.

[ QUOTE ]
and the team-buffs and utility of a radiation defender to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

MORE utility than a RAD (but less control/debuff)

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assumed that much of my audience would already be in the know, so I figured I might as well have fun with it. Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they can join the club:

Spines Scrappers
Ice Blasters
Fire controllers
Kin Defenders &lt;---Just added at the request of Gabriel

[Freem]

I have a kin/sonic. Great combo, I agree. I also have an elec/elec blapper. Both are around the same levels.

Solo under normal situation, even with FS, the blapper outdamages the kin/sonic.
Teamed under normal situation, even with FS, the blapper outdamages the kin/sonic.

This is so, even though my blaster has a supposedly weak damage primary, and has chosen to diversify into some more "supportish" powers which has caused his potential damage output to drop somewhat.

Why is this so? Even though the kin/sonic can achieve higher sustainable damage to reach it requires pre-buffing in its attack chain. The blapper, with aim+buildup up at the start of every battle, delivers a lot more burst damage while lacking sustainable damage. Sustainable damage does not matter if your burst damage has already delivered most of the damage required to bring a spawn down.

However, I will admit that:
Solo under normal situation, kin/sonic is much safer than blapper
Teamed under normal situation, kin/sonic is much safer than blapper
Teamed under normal situation, kin/sonic provides more *group damage* than blapper
Teamed under abnormal situation (ultra high cons) kin/sonic is safer than, provides more group damage, contributes more to the team well-being than the blapper

And:
Teamed under abnormal situation, a kin/sonic can *potentially* outdamage a blapper.

- Abnormal team situation A, not enough damage dealers but lots of damage mitigation. Woohoo, mini-blaster time. I like blowing things up too.

- Abnormal team situation B, cons are too high and team isn't doing well. Kin/sonic will be busy trying to keep everyone alive to spam the sonic blasts with their lousy animations. Shout really locks you up for too long for example. Anyway, just too busy healing, debuffing and buffing to leverage that Fulcrum shift. Do that and soon you'll find everyone in your team dead, and at that point what use is all that damage?

Last of all:
Blapper on same team with kin/sonic will outdamage kin/sonic any time, if the kin/sonic is any good (weirdoes who think they are "kinetic healers" *puke*, and nasties who let the entire team die while they are doing their own soloing do not count)

[DarkCurrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.

It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.

~Gabriel

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.

It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, if you're going to take the "Best Defense is a Good Offense" line, then we're turning protection and defense into semantically null words. Offense != Defense. Killing things quickly may be a great strategy to pursue, but it doesn't turn offense into defense.

Fulcrum can take a huge dent out of an entire spawn's offense. I think we're pretty well in agreement about how powerful a post-fulcrum KIN is.

Pre fulcrum

Great Heal
Siphon Power decreases 1 MOB by 25%
A decent KB aura, if you can risk melee
Slow one opponent
Mez protections/limited RES that can't be kept up on a team
End drain a single foe

Compare that to any other Defender, there's just no comparison. KIN offers less protection than any other Defender set - which is perfectly appropriate for what it's built to do.

"I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely" is a perfect motto for KIN. KIN provides very little on the safety side for a Defender set. It speeds up offense, and offers minimal protection for a buff/debuff set. That doesn't make it bad. But it does make my quote above quite true.

[Sinistar6000]

You still are going to have to take the superjump pool for acrobatics, or else you are going to be the fastest peep always on your A@#. Even while hover and flying that spin around from knockback/down can be quick death.

Very interesting math, I would like to see how a Kin/sonic defender compares with its corruptor version.

[ShaneBattle]

I love Kinetics, and have a Kinetics defender, a Kinetics Controller, and even a Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor.

But this whole thing is hyperbole. You can downplay the fact that Blasters can fill in a chain while the Kinetics guy is buffing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that those extra Blaster attacks will make up the difference and more.

Frankly, I think you are just trolling, yet you accuse others of it.

Sorry Sinistar, quoted you and not the original poster...

[Dalantia]

What slotting was being used for the Sonic and the Elec blasts?

:p

[hepheastus]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you left out defiance.

[/ QUOTE ]

muwghahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahah ahahahahah *gasp* bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah*wheeze*ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

man that's a good one. I wish the dev's had left it out.

[Arc_Salvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't really happen all too often past the Hollows. Seriously.

Especially in the 25+ range. The higher you go, the more you're liable to find paranoid Blasters that won't even stay on your team unless they believe they have enough mitigation and aggro control to allow them to blast safely.

AOE types like Fire/ or Archery/ in those ranges are espeically paranoid about aggro, and will not attack a spawn unless it's been taunted or controlled enough to where they know they'll survive.

[Arc_Salvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.

It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

I somewhat agree, but have to qualify your statement by saying that Offense is the best defense if you can survive the incoming damage while you're killing them faster.

This can be as little as surviving the alpha strike before flattening everything but the Lt's (or sometimes even the LT's) on a good offensive team, but if you can't survive the incoming damage long enough to leverage your own insane damage potential, I find that defense &gt; offense, which you see more in COV than COH.

Man, the second-rate or nonexistent buff-debuff/control/tanking in COV can make for some very inefficient or outright gimpy teams compared to COH.

And all these ignorant people saying "this mission's too easy, let's add 3 people who don't contribute any damage mitigation whatsoever, but tons of +con enemies AND increase the difficulty level"

...and then they're shocked when the first spawn kills the entire team, even with "pulling".


Sorry, just rambling.

[Clan_Jericho]

Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.

In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, just rambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's OK, I prefer your rambling to the peanut gallery calling me a troll. :)

~Gabriel

[Blueeyed]

Okay.

Step 1 : Know what you're talking about.

For starters, the resistance debuff on Sonic Blasts is -20% for Defenders and -12 - 13% for Blasters (roughly 1.6 scalar).

Step 2 : Compare similar capabilities.

Last I checked, there were Sonic Blasters. They get 12.5% per debuff, but it's still notable, and a much more apt comparision than generic Blasters.
You'll also find that Sonic Blasters can do 4.468 scalar damage 'burst', compared to a damage-capped Kin/Sonic who will do 3.6 scalar.
Even if you go by average, with an estimate of +100% * 10/45 (Build Up * availability) + 62.5% * 10/45 (Amplify * availability), you'll find the Sonic Blaster doing ~2.8 scalar, and compared to a *normal* value for Kin/Sonic Blast being ~2.5.

Step 3 : Include values that you know.

Er, comparing two full powersets to one full powerset and a single power? Any possible problems here? I hate to point it out, but even FCS vastly shifts this combination, nevermind actually useful powers. And, sure, you can say that you're ignoring Kinetics powers (which alone is a problem), but outside a good FS, the kin/ powers won't buff damage significantly, while Total Focus most definetely will.

Step 4 : Think before typing.

In particular, something that requires you to stand in the middle of ~10 enemies for 3 seconds minimum is not overly sustainable.
Remember that the aggro metric for Defenders is significantly higher than that for Blasters.
And remember that Defenders have 84% of the health of a Blaster, and kinetics defenders have very little survivability through their primary powers against multiple targets.

*that's not to say I don't expect the sonic blast powerset to be nerfed. A viable control in Defender hands won't last long, and neither will the base 70% of Blaster damage Sonic Blast allows.*

EDIT: corrected grammar : mechanic to metric.
Also included more information on resistance debuff in Sonic Blast.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.

In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're just getting silly. Just because one side effect of good offense is damage mitigation via defeat doesn't make offense and defense equivalent concepts. My anithistamine may causes drowsiness, that doesn't make allerest a sleeping pill.

Sometimes offense &gt; defense, sometimes defense &gt; offense, but never are they exactly the same thing. Offense does not protect you from incoming damage. Defense does not defeate foes.

It's grand you like offense heavy tactics. Get them before they get you is a perfectly valid play strategy. But it doesn't make defense = offense.

In case you need proof, compare a tanker or controller soloing an AV to a Blaster doing it. You know the rest.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay.

Step 1 : Know what you're talking about.

For starters, the resistance debuff on Sonic Blasts is -20% for Defenders and -12 - 13% for Blasters (roughly 1.6 scalar).

Step 2 : Compare similar capabilities.

Last I checked, there were Sonic Blasters. They get 12.5% per debuff, but it's still notable, and a much more apt comparision than generic Blasters.
You'll also find that Sonic Blasters can do 4.468 scalar damage 'burst', compared to a damage-capped Kin/Sonic who will do 3.6 scalar.
Even if you go by average, with an estimate of +100% * 10/45 (Build Up * availability) + 62.5% * 10/45 (Amplify * availability), you'll find the Sonic Blaster doing ~2.8 scalar, and compared to a *normal* value for Kin/Sonic Blast being ~2.5.

Step 3 : Include values that you know.

Er, comparing two full powersets to one full powerset and a single power? Any possible problems here? I hate to point it out, but even FCS vastly shifts this combination, nevermind actually useful powers. And, sure, you can say that you're ignoring Kinetics powers (which alone is a problem), but outside a good FS, the kin/ powers won't buff damage significantly, while Total Focus most definetely will.

Step 4 : Think before typing.

In particular, something that requires you to stand in the middle of ~10 enemies for 3 seconds minimum is not overly sustainable.
Remember that the aggro metric for Defenders is significantly higher than that for Blasters.
And remember that Defenders have 84% of the health of a Blaster, and kinetics defenders have very little survivability through their primary powers against multiple targets.

*that's not to say I don't expect the sonic blast powerset to be nerfed. A viable control in Defender hands won't last long, and neither will the base 70% of Blaster damage Sonic Blast allows.*

EDIT: corrected grammar : mechanic to metric.
Also included more information on resistance debuff in Sonic Blast.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used information on the sonic debuff as provided by the CoH Hero Builder. I don't believe the difference is all that significant - if anything, it only supports my assertion, and I'm usually careful to err on the side of caution.

I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true. Because, as you will no doubt have noticed, I was not comparing kinetics defenders and blasters. I was comparing Kinetics/Sonics defenders and blasters. It should be obvious that I was more interested in examining whether a kin/sonic defender could attain the level of damage-per-hit which a blaster is capable of in general.

I find your entire post condescending; you don't seem to have made any attempt to be polite. Nothing I said in my original post is untrue. A kinetics/sonics defender can and will compare well with a blaster. That fact is undeniable. I made specific mention when I was using extreme examples, which fact you have ignored.

I did not misrepresent the situations for which I was making calculations. I did not posit situations that are unlikely to occur in casual gameplay. I did not impune your personal honor, nor attack anyone at all in the text of my original post. Your puerile attitude is totally uncalled for.

~Gabriel

[Blueeyed]

I'm an [censored]. Do I need to put it in my signature?

Look, unless you want to claim that Sonic/ Blasters do a full 13% - 25% more damage than any other blast set, you've got to assume that they're doing less damage then normal Blast sets before factoring resistance debuffs in.

Otherwise, you're just being intetionally misleading.

[Arc_Salvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, just rambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's OK, I prefer your rambling to the peanut gallery calling me a troll. :)

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, don't worry about 'em. Either got agendas they're trying to forward, or have honest differences in perspective that are valid, that you may not be seeing, or they aren't seeing your perspective.

In any case, Pilcrow's talking about how Kinetics isn't as good as other defenders at preventing incoming damage from killing you IF the enemies are powerful enough that Kinetics/'s heal and debuffs aren't enough to keep the team from dying before they can use the uber damage buffing to wipe out the spawn.

In those cases, another Defender with more powerful team damage mitigation would be better.

You seem to be talking about how Kinetics/ is superior to those defenders when the team has enough surviveability already (including what Kinetics/ provides) to where the damage buffing can actually kill the spawn before damage over time becomes a factor.

By Pilcrow's definition (I believe) he's excluding your ideal situation for Kin/. He's not arguing that damage can't be mitigation, just that damage is only mitigation if you can survive long enough to use it as mitigation, as I said.

As for Blueeyed, he's a guy I respect and like in general, but I think he took your post a bit personally, despite its light-hearted intent, and your admission that Sonic/Kin is competitive with Blasters with potentially more versatility and surviveability.

I honestly don't think that this topic is getting worked up over, because there are real problems in the world that are getting worked over about that I think more people should pay attention to, but that's just me. I also believe that we should try to be more civil and understanding towards each other than we are because I honestly think that most of the world's problems stem from the fact that people just don't care about other people as much as they should, and that everyone would be better off if they put more effort into caring for the people around them rather than trying to forward their own agendas.

Not to say that people shouldn't express or opinion or try to prove their points when they think that they have a good point to make, just that they shouldn't care about their opinion so much that they're willing to disdain or act maliciously against other people because they care more about their opinions than they do about other people.

I'm not trying to condemn anyone by saying this, just trying to express that the world'd be a lot better of a place to live in if our biggest priority was trying to help our fellow man or woman, and I guess by association, so would the forums.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
In any case, Pilcrow's talking about how Kinetics isn't as good as other defenders at preventing incoming damage from killing you IF the enemies are powerful enough that Kinetics/'s heal and debuffs aren't enough to keep the team from dying before they can use the uber damage buffing to wipe out the spawn.

In those cases, another Defender with more powerful team damage mitigation would be better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. And there's a world of difference in how well Kinetics can debuff pre and post fulcrum. All the debuffs before that point are 1 on 1. If you're having trouble surviving the spawn, a Kinetics is the last defender you want to recruit, minimum protection. But if you're surviving the spawn well, no-one else can augment your offense better.

Kinetics/Sonic is a fabulous offender build, and post-32, its as much offense as anyone could want. That's reason enough to roll one. There's no need to go overboard to make the case for rolling one, there are enough good reasons.

I'd put calling offense defense, glossing over the limitations pre-32, and ignoring relevant factors in a comparison to blasters into "going overboard". That's my only qualm with this whole thread, whose essence (Kin/sonic is a VERY nice build) I completely agree with.

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be talking about how Kinetics/ is superior to those defenders when the team has enough surviveability already (including what Kinetics/ provides) to where the damage buffing can actually kill the spawn before damage over time becomes a factor.

By Pilcrow's definition (I believe) he's excluding your ideal situation for Kin/. He's not arguing that damage can't be mitigation, just that damage is only mitigation if you can survive long enough to use it as mitigation, as I said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I'm exclusing the ideal situation, I'm just against calling it defense, much the way many are against calling range defense. Fast kills mitigate damage, but that doesn't make them defense. You have to draw line betwee the two concepts somewhere or you can't speak intelligently. By the definition used here, Blasters have the best defense in the whole game.

[Fulmens]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.

In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.



[/ QUOTE ]

1) How does a "pre-18 claws vs. broadsword" argument help? I'm honestly mystified. Is this "Broadsword is throwing in Parry for safety?" Or "Claws has two of the worst attacks in the game, possibly in the world, before level 18 and is getting a complete restructure in I7?" Go ahead. Spell it out for me.

2) "Blasters know this intuitively"- have you READ the Blaster boards? They've been screaming for nearly two years that their secondaries provide no defense. They're not wrong.

[BlackSly]

[ QUOTE ]
Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'm always going to deny that ANY AT without status protection is any kind of tank-mage.

Maybe mage. Maybe APV-mage. Maybe mobile artillery battery. Pick anything with a BIT of armor and firepower. But not a Tank.

No matter what the offense, long as you're succeptible to a single mez Holding you in melee range so that the Rikti swords come out as you're thinking "This could hurt a bit", you're not a tank.

I really have little problem with all of the squishy builds that outdamage any melee build, since they lack personal defense (defense that works all the time, no matter what the mob's location, position, or numbers are), and they lack status protection. Well, at least until someone shows me a FF or Sonic Resonance character who has "mage" offense.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I'm exclusing the ideal situation, I'm just against calling it defense, much the way many are against calling range defense. Fast kills mitigate damage, but that doesn't make them defense. You have to draw line betwee the two concepts somewhere or you can't speak intelligently. By the definition used here, Blasters have the best defense in the whole game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, OK. I see our problem.

I tend to look at the Offense/Defense question as part of a larger issue: your damage as a percentage of their survivability versus their damage as a percentage of your survivability. Thus, increasing either Offense or Defense gives you an edge - and I tend to view increasing one or the other as being roughly equal, since the end result is usually the same. In this game, increasing offense is usually preferable.

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
1) How does a "pre-18 claws vs. broadsword" argument help? I'm honestly mystified. Is this "Broadsword is throwing in Parry for safety?" Or "Claws has two of the worst attacks in the game, possibly in the world, before level 18 and is getting a complete restructure in I7?" Go ahead. Spell it out for me.

2) "Blasters know this intuitively"- have you READ the Blaster boards? They've been screaming for nearly two years that their secondaries provide no defense. They're not wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

A broadsword has better survivability pre-18 (at which level Claws gets Focus). Frontloaded damage is a very good form of defense.

And actually, Blasters DO admit that their secondary gives them increased survivability. If they didn't then /nrg and /elec would not be preferable to /fire. I'd be interested to see how well a Blaster would do if they took no powers whatsoever from their secondary.

~Gabriel

[hepheastus]

Heh..... ask any fire/fire blaster. you'd be suprised what you can do without a secondary.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh..... ask any fire/fire blaster. you'd be suprised what you can do without a secondary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fire/ is good enough to stand on its own. ;)

~Gabriel

[Great_Scott]

Allright, Gabe, now I'm jealous.

When Issue 6 hit, I posted this kind of post.

The devs stepped on it so hard I'm not sure that anyone read it.

I did really like how it turned out, though - I was fresh out of "uber" and hopping mad; the post was about as harsh as anything I've seen, but technically contained no profanity.

Good luck with your post! :D
-&gt; Scott.

[CommunistPenguin]

Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not attempting a damage-over-time comparison. My calculations, you will no doubt have noticed, only account for damage-per-hit. Truth be told, the actual damage potential of a blaster varies greatly depending upon the build and the skill of the player, and much the same (though to a lesser degree) the damage of a defender. Any comparison of actual DPS will include projected attack chains, which is so subjective that it renders any conclusion inapplicable to most cases.

The purpose of this thread was to point out that there was still an offender who could attain blaster-level damage - which the devs have deliberately tried to prevent happening any more. Playing a kin/sonic is a hint of what the game was like pre-I5, so I thought I'd encourage as many people as possible to get their last taste before the devs nerf it. And if they don't nerf it, all the better.

~Gabriel

[disco_]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.

Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.

Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, storm/sonic should do well for itself. In much the same manner that a fire/sonic controller does.

Regardless, you and many other people seem to have misinterpreted what I was about. I didn't use sonic blasters as an example because their damage is not standard for blasters - electric is. Electric blasters have no modifiers that might influence their overall damage scale, and since my goal was to compare kin/sonic with an imaginary "average" blaster, electric was more suitable.

~Gabriel

[Blueeyed]

Electric Blast provides sub-par single-target and AoE damage compared to even Energy Blast.

And I've said it once before, so I'll say it once again : Do you honestly believe that Sonic Blasters do 112.5-125% of the damage done by other blasters?

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Electric Blast provides sub-par single-target and AoE damage compared to even Energy Blast.

And I've said it once before, so I'll say it once again : Do you honestly believe that Sonic Blasters do 112.5-125% of the damage done by other blasters?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're totally ignoring what I'm saying in every other post. I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time. Damage over time is so fluid and difficult to discuss mathematically with any relevancy to the actual performance of any AT or powerset as a whole that I wouldn't even bother with it.

We could discuss maximum outputs, of course, but considering the fact that most players don't know any numbers in-game, why bother? The situations I'm discussing with regard to kinetics and sonics are likely to occur with even the most casual gameplay. Stacking two Siphon Powers can be done by level 6 (once you get Siphon Speed), and Fulcrum Shifts tend to carry over from one group to the next, making it easy to cap your own damage.

Everyone seems to be trying to turn what I said into something I didn't. I was very specific about the parameters involved. If you want to create a thread addressing a different aspect of kinetics/sonics defender, be my guest, but don't try to call me to task for failing to do something I wasn't attempting.

~Gabriel

[disco_]

That's fine, if you want to make an isolated analysis of what a kin/ can or can't accomplish in terms of "damage-per-hit" then just address it as such. But you ended you post with this -

[ QUOTE ]

So. You should go roll a Kinetics/Sonics defender. Your damage will rival that of a blaster, and ultimately surpass it. Your buffs, debuffs, heals, and movement powers will make you an unequaled boon to any team you join.

Do it soon, because the devs are probably going to nerf us.



[/ QUOTE ]

Which to me seems to claim (and correct if i'm wrong) more than just "/kin can get a single target multiplier which is close to a blaster's".

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
.... Yes, you're reading that correctly. You'll be doing, sustainably, the same damage that the Blaster can only do with both Aim and Build-Up; both of which are only up about 1/4 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Clan_Jericho]

Which is true. You will be sustaining the same damage-per-hit that a blaster can only achieve via Build-Up and Aim.

Why is this so difficult?

~Gabriel

[Dalantia]

Because it looks like your posts are attempting to be deceptive?

You still haven't answered what the folks are fighting, the slotting of various powers, et cetera.

[Pilcrow]

You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.

Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.

Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you read the word damage, you think damage over time. That's fine, but that's not what I meant by it. When I compared sustainability, I said that the kinetics could maintain his damage indefinitely in comparison to the blaster, who could only keep his numbers that high while both Build-Up and Aim were active. Since all of my numbers only accounted for adjustments to damage-per-hit, I thought it would be painfully obvious what I was talking about. I don't assume my audience is stupid.

Frankly, you're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. Start off with the assumption that I said exactly what I intended to, and you'll be on the right track.

~Gabriel

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Because it looks like your posts are attempting to be deceptive?

You still haven't answered what the folks are fighting, the slotting of various powers, et cetera.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like I was trying to be deceptive about what? My numbers and my analyses are all totally consistent to what I was talking about. The fact that you want a different sort of analysis is completely not my problem.

I specified that they were both 3-slotted for damage, which even the most cursory glance at my calculations would make obvious. Any numbers person knows what 1.95 means in regards to CoH. Later, I mentioned that I assumed capped accuracy, since everyone and their dog caps accuracy at the later levels. Since I wasn't talking about projected attack chains, I said nothing whatsoever about slotting recharge or endred.

Honestly, this is ridiculous.

~Gabriel

[MissDemeanor]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, this is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, extremist arguments and class v class comparisons on paper always are. But as we've seen, when your original argument doesn't hold up, you backfill desperately. And the tried and true Nerfherding tactic of Argumentum ad nauseam...wear your opponents out with dogged persistence, and no one will remember that your original op (as presented) is, in fact, wrong.

[Umbra_NA]

I see a kinetic-sonic as a solid and fun character to play, that may become uber once fulcrium shift is good to go. Of course, Fulcrum shift IS uber, really, all the mobs damage debuffed to oblivion and all the heroe's damage capped? nice.
Trivia: Fulcrum shift was nerfed early on. I believe the first version buffed and debuffed accuracy and defence to the floor/cieling..ON TOP of what it now does with damage! Fulcrum shift is uber now, but was MadcrazyUber in its early days. If my memory is correct.

[Shae_Firewarder]

What I recall of Fulcrum shift, was that it gave a buff for every mob hit in an area around the caster, and in the area around the mob being debuffed(called a barbell shape by many). If the kinetic were standing in melee range, you received two buffs for everything hit, and usually buffs across the screen...

I actually got my kinetic to Fulcrum shift level AFTER they changed it to ONE buff around the caster, plus buffs for every mob hit in melee range only. You still had buffs across the screen in many groups. People still asked, "what the H was that?!?"

&lt;sigh&gt; Ah the days before the AoE cap.

Now, with the caps on how many you can hit, it is much less powerful. Still a lovely power, mind you, but, less powerful than it was. To receive full benefit you have to be in melee range, but, that is very like many of the other kinetic powers like transfusion and transference.

as to sustaining high damage...a kinetic's damage is increased by adding the kin powers to the attack chain. The kinetic powers to no damage on their own. If every other power you strike with is doing no damage(my attack chain includes transference, fulcrum shift, siphon speed, and transfusion when I need it. siphon power when nothing else is available.), how can I be doing more damage than a blaster who has a longer attack chain and more attacks to hit with? I have fun, don't get me wrong, I just don't happen to see how I am aproaching blaster damage over time.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.

Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you read the word damage, you think damage over time. That's fine, but that's not what I meant by it. When I compared sustainability, I said that the kinetics could maintain his damage indefinitely in comparison to the blaster, who could only keep his numbers that high while both Build-Up and Aim were active. Since all of my numbers only accounted for adjustments to damage-per-hit, I thought it would be painfully obvious what I was talking about. I don't assume my audience is stupid.

Frankly, you're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. Start off with the assumption that I said exactly what I intended to, and you'll be on the right track.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's words like sustain and indefinitely that bring in the time element. Words YOU are using, not me.

And I think you must assume your audience is stupid if you think they won't see though such transparent attempts to pretend that you were not drawing a comparison of damage over time when you used such words.

Simply speaking, you are making it entirely clear that you are not interested in any kind of realistic/balanced analysis of a kin/sonic to a blaster, and have gone so far to attack the legitimacy of DoT analysis, tell people to go make another threads, and now a none-too-veiled implication that people who don't agree with you are stupid. All in reaciton to people who insist on giving a fuller picture of how the two stack up.

That's a clear sign of a person with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to seek truth.

[Blueeyed]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be mean, but you're totally ignoring what I'm saying in every other post. I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time. Damage over time is so fluid and difficult to discuss mathematically with any relevancy to the actual performance of any AT or powerset as a whole that I wouldn't even bother with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you said not long ago that you were comparing damage per hit. So which is it? Meaningless description A, or B? If your model is correct, it must be correct whether the Sonic Blast is in the hands of the Blaser or Defender.

Again, do you think a Sonic blaster does 112.5% - 125% of the damage of other blasters?

If so, we obviously have an overpowered set on our hands, and that'll be reined in anyway. If not, you're blowing smoke out your [censored] just to nerfherd.

[Vicious_NA]

I am sorry but your analysis is over simplified.

1) Fulcrum shift does not magicly put you at the cap just because you activate it. It gives about 15% increase for each mob that it effects. So with a standard 3 mob grouping you are only going to get about +45% increase from it. Also it has been a while since i played my kinetic but I am pretty sure it can not be ran perma. which cuts into the whole sustainable thing. In order to max out you need a large number of mobs. which brings me to point 2

2) damage cap: blasters and scrappers have a higher damage cap than all other classes.

3) In order to get a high damage number from fulcrum shift you need to have alot of mobs and kinetics are great at debuffing a single target but does not offer alot to deal with large groups but that is where the cone sleep comes in handy. But to get the most out of the cone sleep you should use only your single target attacks so you dont wake everybody up and AOEs play a huge role in sustainable dps. Since the magic word is sustainable lets go to number 4

4) Attack chains: Lets say you are in a mission running from 3 person mob to next 3 person mob and so on. sonic def is looking at 1 minor, 1 med and 1 high damage. Since the recharges are inverse of the damage you will be shooting off your minor the most followed by your med then high. It would take about 1 high, 2 med and 1 minor to get about the same damage that a blaster gets from 1 total focus. Bone smasher does about as much as a high and medium attack combined. So even if a def had similar multipliers, to match a blasters 3 single target blast + 2 melee attacks a defender would need 3 high 4 medium and 2 low attacks that is 5 blaster attacks vs 9 defender attacks. [note: i did not bother to even include AOEs]

So in conclusion, fulcrum shift is not perma, the only way to survive the number of mobs needed to hit the damage cap with fulcrum shift is on a team and the number of attacks it would take to compensate for a blasters secondary would require much more time.

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's words like sustain and indefinitely that bring in the time element. Words YOU are using, not me.

And I think you must assume your audience is stupid if you think they won't see though such transparent attempts to pretend that you were not drawing a comparison of damage over time when you used such words.

Simply speaking, you are making it entirely clear that you are not interested in any kind of realistic/balanced analysis of a kin/sonic to a blaster, and have gone so far to attack the legitimacy of DoT analysis, tell people to go make another threads, and now a none-too-veiled implication that people who don't agree with you are stupid. All in reaciton to people who insist on giving a fuller picture of how the two stack up.

That's a clear sign of a person with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to seek truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say this just once more, and then I'm done.

Sustain. The same level. Of damage. Per hit.

I.E. The blaster boosts himself with Aim and Build-Up. He goes from 1.95 to 1.95 + 1.00 + 62.5. The kineticist, on the other hand, does not have downtime. The duration of Fulcrum Shift is 45 seconds, while with proper slotting and Siphon Speed (usually stacked) several FSs can go off in that time. Meaning that the kineticist can operate at his damage cap indefinitely.

Not addressing you specifically, Pil, but I don't understand how people can assume that I was deliberately being misleading. Aside from being rude, it doesn't reflect what I was saying.

~Gabriel

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[knginatl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]


Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[ShaneBattle]

Oh great, this turned into an Accuracy whine thread, just like that.

Want better accuracy? Stop fighting Rikti, Council, and Circle of Thorns. :P

[TheDeepBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's all a matter of perception.

(No, not the Perception ingame.)

[Retrogression]

[ QUOTE ]
The duration of Fulcrum Shift is 45 seconds, while with proper slotting and Siphon Speed (usually stacked) several FSs can go off in that time. Meaning that the kineticist can operate at his damage cap indefinitely.
~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

Siphon speed and Fulcrum shift putting anyone at a damage cap requires a lot of targets to hit simultaneously. The odds are against such a perfect environment to provide enough bad guys to achieve so many hits without oh, dying from all their damage :) "Indefinitely" is a big exaggeration due to that factor. "for a while when factors coincide" is a lot closer.

In large teams I find it hard to even get Fulcrum shift off versus each spawn of bad guys before the blasters and scrappers have already killed most of em. I'm lucky if the melee folks get 4 buffs from each Fulcrum Shift on average. That is far from keeping me at max damage.

Solo it'd be even harder as I'd have to somehow herd up three or four spawns to fulcrum shift from if I wanted to max my damage.

Not only that but blaster damage max is 5 x 100% = 500% whereas defender max damage is 4 x 66% = 264% -- not much more than half. And blasters can situationally maintain their damage near that cap with Defiance, which is only a little harder to do than to keep 10+ live mobs in Fulcrum-shifting range ... if that.

[Warcabbit]

Wait. That... I thought Sonics had a 95% accuracy!

[Airhammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's all a matter of perception.

(No, not the Perception ingame.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I will admist it SEEMS as if my electric blaster and my storm/electric defender miss more than my other blasters but I tie that in a little bit to visual power effect.. When my NRG hits he often knocks back ( or down cause I hover alot ), Fire I see the DoT working when i hit. Elec really doesnt have an effect like that which reinforces the fact I am hitting.

I would like Castle to answer THIS question though. Why is it when Elec misses it LOOKS like I hit ?? this INFURIATES me to no end at times because it SEEMS like I am hitting a target when I am not. When other targets miss its blatantly obvious that you miss.. Why is Elec different in this aspect and can it be fixed ??

[BurningHammer]

Though the blast may look like it hit, the enemy was aware of you attack and got properly grounded....

[BlueWrecker]

Contrary to what others are saying after your post, my sonic/sonic defender actually seems to miss *much* more than any other set I've ever had. Are the base ACCs for some of the sets higher than 100% in general?

Just curious because having played... well, everything, it seemed like sonics had the worst base ACC of all.

I assumed and accepted it was to mitigate the damage resistance debuffs with every power in the set, to keep it from being unbalanced?

[Broomhilda]

well my 2 cents is, and this is only imo(and most of my friends), but i wouldnt build a defender now if you payed me. The inherent power sux so bad its usless, and the lack of real damage really cripples them for solo. Empathy or a Dark is the only real reason to do a defender now, and Emp isnt really that good anymore. If you want a toon that will be more help in a group then go with a controller. Even solo they are much better. They make up for all those short comings with powers that will help a group much more than any defender ever could.

I figured this out when i played healer for a herding (o no a bad word) tank with my ill/kin controller. He had a lvl 50 hami o'ed Emp/psy healing for him before i took over. He had died a couple times like always happens. But once i took over, not once did he even come close to biting it and he killed much faster. It was a learning exp for both of us, but to this day he prefers controllers to defenders on his missions.

But thats just my 2 cent...

[Angry_Citizen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much for clarifying the lack of Sonic accuracy problems. Very VERY appreciated.

[HeroVorkk]

Q: Why should you build a Kin/Sonics?

A: Because you want to play a Kin/Sonics.

If you don't want to play a Kin/Sonic, then don't build one.

If you are looking to min/max the DPS or Burst damage, then go ahead and be a Spreadsheet GURU and microanalize the differences in Acc, Damage, Recharge, etc.

Most times, I pick my primaries and secondaries for the "funness" and general usefulness of the powersets, not the "who does 0.0054% more damage per second" powersets.

[TargetDummy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much for clarifying the lack of Sonic accuracy problems. Very VERY appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah vindication!

In an early post (that I can't find anymore - lost to purging) I posted that there wasn't a -5 accuracy penalty applied to sonic (at least for ALL powers).

I had tested Shriek in outbreak with 4000 attacks against even con minions and posting a picture of the hero stats screen (averaging out to 76 percent when I finally quit).

Even with that no one wanted to believe me or run there own tests.

[iakona_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]
And here's the sets he left out:

Archery
115.5% for all except:
Ranged Shot: 139%

Assault Rifle
105% for all except:
Sniper Rifle: 125%
Flame Thrower: 130%
Full Auto: 135%

Energy
100% for all except:
Sniper Blast: 120%
Power Push: 140%
Nova: 140%

Fire
100% for all except:
Fire Breath: 120%
Blazing Bolt: 120%
Inferno: 140%

Ice
100% for all except:
Frost Breath: 120%

[Punchy]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Fulcrum shift does not magicly put you at the cap just because you activate it. It gives about 15% increase for each mob that it effects. So with a standard 3 mob grouping you are only going to get about +45% increase from it. Also it has been a while since i played my kinetic but I am pretty sure it can not be ran perma. which cuts into the whole sustainable thing. In order to max out you need a large number of mobs. which brings me to point 2


[/ QUOTE ]

Fulcrum shift is most definitely perma. In fact, you can even stack it with itself without much difficulty. As for the numbers, each mob affected by FS gives 25% damage buff, and the aoe buff centered around caster gives a 40% buff. So even on a 3-person spawn it's quite possible to get a 115% buff. And it can stack with siphon power.

[antenna]

[ QUOTE ]


Thunderous Blast: 140%


[/ QUOTE ]Thunderous Blast has the same bug as TF had for tankers. with 3 acc, build up, and aim popped i miss all the time.

[Necrotron_RO]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's all a matter of perception.

(No, not the Perception ingame.)

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. I dunno why, but this made me laugh. :)

[CommunistPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not attempting a damage-over-time comparison. My calculations, you will no doubt have noticed, only account for damage-per-hit. Truth be told, the actual damage potential of a blaster varies greatly depending upon the build and the skill of the player, and much the same (though to a lesser degree) the damage of a defender. Any comparison of actual DPS will include projected attack chains, which is so subjective that it renders any conclusion inapplicable to most cases.

The purpose of this thread was to point out that there was still an offender who could attain blaster-level damage - which the devs have deliberately tried to prevent happening any more. Playing a kin/sonic is a hint of what the game was like pre-I5, so I thought I'd encourage as many people as possible to get their last taste before the devs nerf it. And if they don't nerf it, all the better.

~Gabriel

[/ QUOTE ]

Your entire argument is null and void if it doesnt apply to the actual game. Not taking in animation times is just as stupid as not taking in full slotting or so's vs do's vs to's. I mean, who cares if you can get close to baseline blaster damage in an ideal situation that can neer occur in game? Defenders were nerfed before because some could and did easily meet and surpass blaster damage in game, not becasue they could maybe get close if they pissed into he south winds at the same time as spitting into the north.

[BayouVoodoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

Sonics doesn't have *bad* accuracy, in general, but Electric has very good accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I don't understand is why these numbers (and for all other powers, for that matter) are not in the game to see when you select ATs/Powers/Enhancement slots. If not in the game itself, why not on the website for those who want to look them up. Ultimately, I would like to see the numbers put into an offical hero planner.

I have read in the past that States doesn't want the game to be 'numbers driven' where everyone goes cookie-cutter with their builds for optimization. But I just don't understand what is ok about people putting precious slots and enhancements into powers for practically no effect simply because they don't know any better, and simply saying that more than 3 slots of the same type becomes ineffective:

Combat jumping provides defense!! I'm gonna put 3 Defense Enhancements in it! Right?

[knginatl]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh great, this turned into an Accuracy whine thread, just like that.

Want better accuracy? Stop fighting Rikti, Council, and Circle of Thorns. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it sounds like you're the one doing the whining here.

You think not fighting certain villain groups is the answer to possible powerset accuracy problems?? Think before you post, and come back later with a better comment.

I've been playing since COH beta, have approximately 50 alts, 1 50, 10 in the 30's-40's, 12 in the 20's, 11 in the teens, etc. I've played almost everyday since beta. I think I'm qualified with my observations of this game to give a valuable opinion.

I feel that the electricity blast powerset for blasters, AND defenders is overall less accurate than the other blast powersets. Maybe it is perceived, because of the animations. I dont know. I do know how it feels compared to all the other powersets I've played with. It does need further investigation. I like my lvl 35 dark/elec defender, as well as my lvl 25 elec/energy blaster. It's just discouraging when they seem to miss all the time.

[Blueeyed]

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't understand is why these numbers (and for all other powers, for that matter) are not in the game to see when you select ATs/Powers/Enhancement slots. If not in the game itself, why not on the website for those who want to look them up. Ultimately, I would like to see the numbers put into an offical hero planner.

[/ QUOTE ]
Some of them are available here (http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/powers/).
[ QUOTE ]
I have read in the past that States doesn't want the game to be 'numbers driven' where everyone goes cookie-cutter with their builds for optimization. But I just don't understand what is ok about people putting precious slots and enhancements into powers for practically no effect simply because they don't know any better, and simply saying that more than 3 slots of the same type becomes ineffective:

[/ QUOTE ]
From my understanding, Statesman played another game where all stats where given out, and those stats were completely useless. To paraphrase, it went something like "A Necklace of +4 Wisdom. What does Wisdom do, and why would I want more of it?".
In essence, CoH was supposed to get past that by making all mechanics very transparent and very organic. In some ways, it worked. Fire Tanker powers, for example, are extremely organic, as are current Regeneration powers. In some ways, it failed. Trick Archer or Storm Summoner, not so organic.

I think either the development team or the playerbase needs to band together and come up with a quick, easy way to present the basic statistics about current powers. Currently, the closest is Hero Planners, which aren't always up to date or perfect in concept.

What I'd really like to see is a revival of Featured Powers (http://www.cityofheroes.com/gameinfo/powers.html), but given that the page hasn't been updated since BETA, I doubt we could be so lucky. (seriously, "Lunge"?)

*meh.*

[Lallendos]

I will chime in as a highly sought after kin/dark.
I have recharges in every power
I stack my siphons
I have hasten.

The problem as I see it is that it takes 3 to 5 power activations to work into a fight. The very first one to get max damage will be Fulcrum Shift. I cannot emphasize enough how many times I have faceplanted trying to fulrcum and blackstar 4 or 5 even level Possessed Scientists. I tried a large variey of tactics.

Your idea works in a perfect world, with a perfect - ish build, versus the post 40 non-existent group of even level non- status effecting minions.

I've lived your theory. Good luck with that. Oh, BTW, by the time you achieve damage cap, you are dead, and then enemies are gone. Oh, and dont forget to actulally GET those stacked siphon speeds you spoke of in there. Between heal, transfer, Fulcrum and siphons, my solo combats are HORRIBLY long. Tortuously. Now toss me a pet stone tanker, though......

[DarthMord]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's all a matter of perception.

(No, not the Perception ingame.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I will admist it SEEMS as if my electric blaster and my storm/electric defender miss more than my other blasters but I tie that in a little bit to visual power effect.. When my NRG hits he often knocks back ( or down cause I hover alot ), Fire I see the DoT working when i hit. Elec really doesnt have an effect like that which reinforces the fact I am hitting.

I would like Castle to answer THIS question though. Why is it when Elec misses it LOOKS like I hit ?? this INFURIATES me to no end at times because it SEEMS like I am hitting a target when I am not. When other targets miss its blatantly obvious that you miss.. Why is Elec different in this aspect and can it be fixed ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem is that Electric has NO miss animation. Hits and misses both connect as though the attack hit. The only way you can tell that a Miss occurred is that you did no damage and you see MISS on the screen.

[Haribon]

if you guys want to outdamage blasters, make yourself a Fire/Kin troller

[Tog]

I have a Sonic/Sonic Def (12), a Kinetic/Sonic Def(10), a Sonic/Kinetic Corr(26) and 2 sonic Blasters around 5. I've seriously thought of slottig brawl for damage since that is the most reliable attack any of them have, Even with the attacks 2 slotted with Acc DOs. Elec is a little better, but neither is as reliable as Dark Blast for accuracy overall. At least for me.

I think maybe Sonic doesn't suffer from the same acc bug that Dark Melee doesn't suffer from. You know where it takes 2 SO acc to hit a +2 minion reliably. :D

[Biostem]

Just thought I'd chime in with a bit of psychology:

Humans, being omnivores, able to eat a varied diet, and being subject to predation by other animals, are geared to remember the BAD things that happen, so as to avoid them at alater date. Predators, on the other hand, remember the good hunting spots, the choicest prey, etc.

Thus, we recall when we miss, when we are defeated, etc. We don't remember the 3/4 times we hit, or the times when we kill an enemy in 1 shot, etc.

In short, don't talk about how it *seems* you miss a lot or how you *feel* this set has a lower accuracy. Run hero stats on sever thousand instances against the same enemy and same circumstances, then report your results...

[Clan_Jericho]

[ QUOTE ]
Siphon speed and Fulcrum shift putting anyone at a damage cap requires a lot of targets to hit simultaneously. The odds are against such a perfect environment to provide enough bad guys to achieve so many hits without oh, dying from all their damage :) "Indefinitely" is a big exaggeration due to that factor. "for a while when factors coincide" is a lot closer.

In large teams I find it hard to even get Fulcrum shift off versus each spawn of bad guys before the blasters and scrappers have already killed most of em. I'm lucky if the melee folks get 4 buffs from each Fulcrum Shift on average. That is far from keeping me at max damage.

Solo it'd be even harder as I'd have to somehow herd up three or four spawns to fulcrum shift from if I wanted to max my damage.

Not only that but blaster damage max is 5 x 100% = 500% whereas defender max damage is 4 x 66% = 264% -- not much more than half. And blasters can situationally maintain their damage near that cap with Defiance, which is only a little harder to do than to keep 10+ live mobs in Fulcrum-shifting range ... if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying, but your math is a bit off. A defender's damage cap is 4.00. With 3 dam SOs he'll be at 1.95. The personal boost (the one generated by the kineticist when FS goes off) is double what the others are worth. So that's 0.5 for yourself and 0.25 for every enemy. At that rate it only takes 6 enemies to cap a defender's damage via FS - and that's a single activation. If you have three enemies in two groups and two activations then you're actually over the cap by a fair amount. So it's quite easy to keep yourself capped in a solo mission.

Also, defiance is generally considered worthless. If you have an easy time as a level 30+ blaster keeping your damage perpetually capped via Defiance then you are very skilled indeed. If you want the general opinion about Defiance's usefulness, see the Blaster forum. For my own part: I pretend it doesn't even exist.

~Gabriel

[Edit: Even if you're taking it easy and not pushing things, using FS on a single group of three enemies will net you 1.95 + 0.50 + 0.75 = 3.2. Which still isn't very far from the damage cap. Considering that this is absolutely the very least you'll get out of Fulcrum Shift (assuming you're not totally incompetent)...]

[AlexEss]

Biostem for president.

My findings are that both my fire and sonics blasters and elec fender hits about as often. Heck my elec was doing a fair jobb in a group going against +4 (without me having any +acc buff) against even con i say it is gold. And i can't say i had to mutch problem with sonics either. Maybe there is something wrong with my game... :P ;)

[Lasher]

[ QUOTE ]

Then why do I have such bad accuracy problems on my electricity blaster and defender?? More than any other powersets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe Geko nerfed you. :p

[Hearse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh great, this turned into an Accuracy whine thread, just like that.

Want better accuracy? Stop fighting Rikti, Council, and Circle of Thorns. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it sounds like you're the one doing the whining here.

You think not fighting certain villain groups is the answer to possible powerset accuracy problems?? Think before you post, and come back later with a better comment.

I've been playing since COH beta, have approximately 50 alts, 1 50, 10 in the 30's-40's, 12 in the 20's, 11 in the teens, etc. I've played almost everyday since beta. I think I'm qualified with my observations of this game to give a valuable opinion.

I feel that the electricity blast powerset for blasters, AND defenders is overall less accurate than the other blast powersets. Maybe it is perceived, because of the animations. I dont know. I do know how it feels compared to all the other powersets I've played with. It does need further investigation. I like my lvl 35 dark/elec defender, as well as my lvl 25 elec/energy blaster. It's just discouraging when they seem to miss all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, your feelings are irrelevant. If you play that much, bring data. Bring HeroStats logs. It is pointless to dispute a post that contains discrete averments (referring to Castle's post here) with perceptions and impressions.

[Feyhd]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and by the way... those travel powers.

superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.

and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion yes, they totally are, since they are unsupressed in pvp, I can jump in with IR and jump immediately away while the SJ guy is still hopping for a few seconds.

[GenericVillain]

Anyone that claims they are having accuracy problems should get herostats and record their attack, firing it a good number of times against some specified enemy. Percieved accuracy is so influenced by your state of mind that without numbers, "I miss a lot" doesn't really mean anything.

Missing 4 times in a row that one time means nothing, hitting 10 times without missing that one time also means nothing, streaks happen all the time. What matters is the average over time, and for that, you need a lot of swings.

[UberGuy]

Also, on the matter of offense = defense:

All you have to do to have this break down is face a foe whos defense trumps your offense. If you have no actual defense, this foe will win (including you fleeing as a "win").

I toss this into a lot of threads on this topic; my uber-simplistic combat model. You win a fight when:

YourDPS/FoeHP &lt; FoeDPS/YourHP

The DPS parts are meant to be extremely broad. You can increase DPS with damage buffs, recharge buffs, for DR debuffs, etc. DPS can be reduced by opponent DR, DEF, being held, slowed, end drained, etc.

The formula is meant to model battles that are short compared to health regen times. When this is not true (/Regen, some AVs) this model breaks down. But it's a valid generalization for a vast segment of combat content.

As a counterpoint to the raw damage outlay of a Kin/Sonic Defender I have recently buillt an Ice/Dark Corruptor. So far it's one of my favorite squishies ever. Nice bursty offense with potent defenses. Defenses that keep me alive while I set up my buffs/debuffs in order to then maximize my offensive potential. Against foes like bosses and elite bosses, even kinetics would not allow me to kill foes so fast that they would not get shots in on me. When those shots are tremendously damaging to either my health or my DPS (mezzes, for example), I would vastly prefer "real" defense to greater offense. "More offense for the win" does have real play application, but I consider it more fragile than a more moderate mix of offense and defense. As most Blasters will attest. :)

[Binary]

[ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

[/ QUOTE ]

That's great information. Can we have this table for ALL the powersets?

A section of this website devoted to power stats (End Cost, Base Damage, Base Range, etc.) would be very useful, and easier to keep up to date than a print book.

Yes I know that people have been asking for this from Day One, but I'm asking again, because we still want it, and I still think it's a reasonable request.

BB

[TheDeadlyShoe]

[ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem is that Electric has NO miss animation. Hits and misses both connect as though the attack hit. The only way you can tell that a Miss occurred is that you did no damage and you see MISS on the screen.


[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't played Electric in quite some time, but IIRC there is too a hit animation. An electric shock aura and sound.

[Biostem]

Right... but the electric bolts still go right into the enemy's body. You don't see the blast veer off or anything. So, if you didn't look for the "miss" above the enemy's head, and didn't look for the slight shake animation that you hit them, it appears that the blast hits...

[iakona_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Charged Bolt: 100%
Lightning Bolt: 100%
Ball Lightning: 100%
Short Circuit: 130%
Zapp: 120%
Tesla Cage: 100%
Thunderous Blast: 140%

Shriek: 100%
Scream: 100%
Howl: 100%
Shockwave: 90%
Shout: 100%
Sirens Song: 90%
Screech: 100%
Dreadful Wail: 140%

[/ QUOTE ]

That's great information. Can we have this table for ALL the powersets?

A section of this website devoted to power stats (End Cost, Base Damage, Base Range, etc.) would be very useful, and easier to keep up to date than a print book.

Yes I know that people have been asking for this from Day One, but I'm asking again, because we still want it, and I still think it's a reasonable request.

BB

[/ QUOTE ]
While you wait for the devs to finally get around to posting this information at some random date in the probably distant future, you can find it on a third-party website at http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/powers/archetype.php. The data listed there is all accurate and up to date, because it comes from the exact same data the game itself uses. It currently lists the Max Targets affectable by each power, Angle of cone powers, Radius of AoE powers, Base Range, Base Accuracy, Activation Time, Recharge Time, Endurance Cost, and Time Per Tick (time between pulses of toggle powers).

(NOTE: powers that summon a pet or pseudo-pet, like Rains or Transfusion or Henchmen, currently do not show all the relevant data for the powers. They only show the data for the summon power, which summons the pet entities; the pet entities then affect the target, and this pet entity data is not yet listed. I'm working with RedTomax to hopefully get this data listed Soon(TM). )

[Stealth_Bomber]

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Anyhow, have fun doing that, but realize that if you're ever on a team with a Blaster, by buffing him with stuff like Speed Boost, siphon power, and debuffing the resistance of the enemies, you're transferring all those buffs you're enjoying solo to him, and that Blaster has a 500% cap.

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Is that before or after he screams "heal me" as he's running for the nearest elevator with 6 +3 mobs in hot pursuit?

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Ahem.

At our last Blaster/Defender Interface subcommittee meeting, we Blasters were informed that screaming "Heal me!" is no longer appropriate. The proper phrase to scream is, of course:

"Buff my HP! Buff my HP!"