Hami Enzyme more valuable than Cyto?

[Riddikulus]

I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[gSOLO]

enzyme = defense debuff

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
enzyme = defense debuff

[/ QUOTE ]
I got news for you. ;)

[gSOLO]

So they changed it sometime recently? You'll have to spell it out for me...

Enzyme Exposure

Enhances ToHit and Defense DeBuffs and Reduces Endurance Cost

Exposure to the Hamidon Enzymes can increase the effectiveness of Accuracy and Defense DeBuffs and reduces the Endurance Cost of a power.

[gSOLO]

OK... because there aren't separate Defense Buff and Debuff Lines; they're calculated together. Test it out and see if is actually enhancing...

This may be similar to how end and slow enhancements were affecting both drain / rec / slow / speed parts of a power...

[Tormentoso]

Def Buffs are 20%, Def Debufs are 33%

In the Defender boards there have been a discussion about how Vengeance's recharge time can be lowered with Membranes (to hit buff/def buff/rech), even though Vengeance does not accept recharge enhancements.

But since Veng does accept to hit, and def buffs, its taking Membranes and the numbers are also using the rech buff of the Hami-O to reduce the recharge time of the power. Sort of a loop hole.

So my theory is:
1) Whatever power you want to slot the Enzyme has another effect that allows it to be slotted, not the def buff/debuff apect.

2) Since def buff/debuff are the same thing (like end mods and end drains), its computing the debuff as a buff and giving you the 33% instead of the 20%.

[BlackSly]

[ QUOTE ]
So my theory is:
1) Whatever power you want to slot the Enzyme has another effect that allows it to be slotted, not the def buff/debuff apect.

2) Since def buff/debuff are the same thing (like end mods and end drains), its computing the debuff as a buff and giving you the 33% instead of the 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that any Def power will have an End cost, that makes Enzymes slottable in all Defense powers.

What you're saying is that I could slot an Enzyme into Focused Fighting (since it has an End cost), and get +33% as the Defense modifier since an Enzyme modifiers Defense Buffs/Debuffs by 33%?

Whoa. Just... whoa. If that's true (even if they drop the Buff effect to 20% once they realize this), that makes Enzymes actually USEFUL to people other than Radiation Emission and Dark Miasma users.

[Tormentoso]

If the relationship between def buff/def debuff is similar to the end drain/end recovery(now combined into end mod). Then yes it is poosible to get a 33% def bonus on toggles (might not work on passives).

However, keep in mind Ed will lock the value at around 60%.

But having your main defense toggle with only 2 slots, and those slots giving you all the defense you can milk out of it, and a good chunk of end discount on top sounds interesting, if not broken.

P.S. Just throwing theories here. Cant prove it I have no Enz on me at the moment.

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So my theory is:
1) Whatever power you want to slot the Enzyme has another effect that allows it to be slotted, not the def buff/debuff apect.

2) Since def buff/debuff are the same thing (like end mods and end drains), its computing the debuff as a buff and giving you the 33% instead of the 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that any Def power will have an End cost, that makes Enzymes slottable in all Defense powers.

What you're saying is that I could slot an Enzyme into Focused Fighting (since it has an End cost), and get +33% as the Defense modifier since an Enzyme modifiers Defense Buffs/Debuffs by 33%?

Whoa. Just... whoa. If that's true (even if they drop the Buff effect to 20% once they realize this), that makes Enzymes actually USEFUL to people other than Radiation Emission and Dark Miasma users.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was my thought.

In the same vein, Lyso's could be used in any +DEF power that takes accuracy enhancements. Some of the scrapper parry type attacks may do this, I'm not positive.

[Tormentoso]

Next Patch: Def Debuff and Def Buffs consolidated into Defense Modifier enhancement, with 5/10/20 value.

Base effectiveness of powers that debuff defense not changed to compensate.

Debuffers of the world cringe.

[Blueeyed]

Along these lines, has anyone tried placing a Ribosome into Freezing Rain/Tar Patch/Enervating Field?

Oh, and can anyone think of the nerfs this would cause?

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
Along these lines, has anyone tried placing a Ribosome into Freezing Rain/Tar Patch/Enervating Field?

Oh, and can anyone think of the nerfs this would cause?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ribosome's are so high on the Hami "value" list and seemingly rare so that even if it did work, it would cost you lots to do it. I've never seen one.

Enzymes and Lysosomes were the bottom of the Hami barrel... I remember giving a couple Enzymes and several Lyso's away. I think being a 33% +DEF will move Enzyme into the top tier, and Lyso's into the middle tier.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[Red_Tape]

Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[Ice_Ember]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be awesome to have. Trying to get enough acc/mez HO's for a mind controller is impossible...

[Kong_Fuu]

Really? My scrapper (with Focused Accuracy) was loaded up with Acc/Mez. It was the only thing I got more often than a Lysome.

Heck, if the devs want to keep it random, they could choose three HOs (at random) and let the user choose from those.

[Tormentoso]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo, come on!! After a year and a half I finally got a toon into Hami level range. Let me have some fun with loopholes!!

P.S.: How are "soon(tm)" and "not so distant future"related? Any wild gueses? :)

[DarZindel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo, come on!! After a year and a half I finally got a toon into Hami level range. Let me have some fun with loopholes!!

P.S.: How are "soon(tm)" and "not so distant future"related? Any wild gueses? :)

[/ QUOTE ]

*Sings* In the not to distant future, 3000 AD. There was a guy named Joel not so different from you and me...*

[Iodine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fantastic idea! Devs, take note please. Thank you, Futurias!

:D

[Retrogression]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason for this is pretty easy to understand. Normally, a Damage enhancement and a Damage Resistance enhancement are kinda the same thing. Except different powers allow them to be slotted, and they enhance on different Schedules. If you *could* put a Damage enh into a shield power, it would enhance the DR by the higher Schedule 1 percentage.

Now with Hami O's sometimes you can slot one (say a Damage/End) into a power that normally takes Damage resistance but not Damage enhs. So it's going to actually do a higher percentage where it isnt supposed to be there at all.

I suspect this fix will be tricky to implement.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]


Will there also be a fix so that HOs with traits that are supposed to be unslottable in some powers won't improve those traits in those power? I specifically mean things like: Membranes boosting Vengeance's recharge, or centrioles boosting range on melee attacks.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be awesome to have. Trying to get enough acc/mez HO's for a mind controller is impossible...

[/ QUOTE ]

And here I was wishing that so many Acc/Mez HOs would stop dropping for me. I'm practically giving them away.

[Mr E-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* - wouldn't we all...

[Cal_Naughton_Jr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo, come on!! After a year and a half I finally got a toon into Hami level range. Let me have some fun with loopholes!!

P.S.: How are "soon(tm)" and "not so distant future"related? Any wild gueses? :)

[/ QUOTE ]

*Sings* In the not to distant future, 3000 AD. There was a guy named Joel not so different from you and me...*

[/ QUOTE ]

*In Tom Servo voice* NO NO NO! It's next Sunday AD!!!

You still win for mentioning MST3K though :)

This link will help:

http://www.mst3kinfo.com/mstfaq/lyrics.html#KTMA

Be sure to check out the backstory database* and turkey database* at www.gobble.com (http://www.gobble.com) while you're on the interweb.

*quotes from episode 814 Riding with Death

[Flaming1]

[ QUOTE ]
And here I was wishing that so many Acc/Mez HOs would stop dropping for me. I'm practically giving them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it just speaks to the point that HOs just weren't designed to be farmed, or collected en masse.

All those Dam/Ranges? There's a reason Flamer's attacks are almost all maxed out with those; I used to get them dumped on me like it was a Clearance Sale. To this day, I still get people trying to pawn them off on me.

[scherherazade]

I knida wondered this too. I noticed over the weekend that my Titan Criten Shard was giving my Soul Drain a boost in defense.

[2Negative]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Next Sunday AD? La la la

EDIT: darn you all beat me too it :)

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be better to reduce the percentage to 20% and let us use it... less coding that way and better use for these useless HOs :D debuffers all around the world scream in unison.

I did verify that with one DEF SO @ 20% adding one Enzyme HO increased DEF by 31.3% to 51.3%. So E.D. would still cap the DEF buff around 60%, we could just do it in two slots instead of 3 or 4.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And here I was wishing that so many Acc/Mez HOs would stop dropping for me. I'm practically giving them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it just speaks to the point that HOs just weren't designed to be farmed, or collected en masse.

All those Dam/Ranges? There's a reason Flamer's attacks are almost all maxed out with those; I used to get them dumped on me like it was a Clearance Sale. To this day, I still get people trying to pawn them off on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those were dropping constantly for me...until I got my two ranged attacks slotted out with them. I really want acc/dam atm. Or maybe end reduce/to-hit debuff/defense-debuff.

[Flaming1]

Prior to ED, it seemed like the HamiO Black Market was going to boil over with the demand for Ribos (Resist/End) and Golgis (Heal/End).

Lately, it seems like Nucleoli (Dam/Accs) are near the top of the demand list. Interestingly, the debuff HOs, Enzymes and Lysos seem to have gone up in value. Before, it seemed like you couldn't give them away. These days, it seems that the proliferation of multicomponent debuffing sets (Rad and Storm, for instance) has increased the relative value of these HOs.

[Revolver_Law]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was requested repeatedly when raiding was in it's "prime", but never got a response.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Prior to ED, it seemed like the HamiO Black Market was going to boil over with the demand for Ribos (Resist/End) and Golgis (Heal/End).

Lately, it seems like Nucleoli (Dam/Accs) are near the top of the demand list. Interestingly, the debuff HOs, Enzymes and Lysos seem to have gone up in value. Before, it seemed like you couldn't give them away. These days, it seems that the proliferation of multicomponent debuffing sets (Rad and Storm, for instance) has increased the relative value of these HOs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always taken Lysos, but I don't think I could realistically add one more to either of my 50s with any kind of reasonable benefit. People have been giving me enzymes recently, though.

[DarkStrike]

This makes perfect sense now. Its the reason Im seeing yahoos trading ribosomes for lysosomes at the raids lately !!! LOL When they see this thread they'll crap themselves realizing the gig is up and their lyso's are getting "fixed". Ha Ha.

[Ssyrie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was requested repeatedly when raiding was in it's "prime", but never got a response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, maybe a compromise like Kong_Fuu suggested. Let us pick from a short randomly generated list of HO's. At the very least it would improve the odds of getting something usefull even if it wasn't the #1 thing you're looking for.

[Sockem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I picked up an enzyme recently at a Hami raid and... is it just my imagination or is an enzyme really providing a 33% defense BUFF ?! That would make it better than Cyto's which only provide a 20% defense buff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bug. It'll be fixed.

EDIT:
More specifically, Enhancements should only effect the things they are listed as effecting. Dual and Multi enhancements (such as Hami-O's) sometimes break that due to a flaw in our system. That flaw will be being closed in the not so distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darn, I really liked the dmg/rng in headsplitter.

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
If the relationship between def buff/def debuff is similar to the end drain/end recovery(now combined into end mod). Then yes it is poosible to get a 33% def bonus on toggles (might not work on passives).

However, keep in mind Ed will lock the value at around 60%.

But having your main defense toggle with only 2 slots, and those slots giving you all the defense you can milk out of it, and a good chunk of end discount on top sounds interesting, if not broken.

P.S. Just throwing theories here. Cant prove it I have no Enz on me at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are the enhancement values if you use those "useless" Enzymes instead of Cyto's in your +DEF powers:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre># Cyto Enzyme
= ==== ======
1 20.0% 33.3%
2 40.0% 57.0%
3 56.0% 62.0%
4 59.0% 67.0%
5 62.0% 72.0%
6 65.0% 77.0%</pre><hr />
So for the time being you can use 2 Enzymes to replace 3 Cytos and get about the same amount of +DEF. Enjoy it while it lasts. :D

[Incendia]

heh so dmg/rng works in melee attacks and increases the range? i'll have to try that out . ..

[Riddikulus]

[ QUOTE ]
heh so dmg/rng works in melee attacks and increases the range? i'll have to try that out . ..

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe it will work in normal melee attacks, since they have range=0, and 0 x anything is still 0.

It used to work in Shadow Maul, because it had a small range component (like 5 feet or something) on it, where even though range enhancers were not allowed, adding dmg/rng increased that component. I don't know if they have fixed that or not.

[srmalloy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
heh so dmg/rng works in melee attacks and increases the range? i'll have to try that out . ..

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe it will work in normal melee attacks, since they have range=0, and 0 x anything is still 0.

It used to work in Shadow Maul, because it had a small range component (like 5 feet or something) on it, where even though range enhancers were not allowed, adding dmg/rng increased that component. I don't know if they have fixed that or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Melee attacks do have a range, albeit a short one, in order to allow a small amount of 'slop' in placing your character in melee range; this was most egregiously noticeable before Whirlwind was fixed so that it didn't debuff range on melee attacks -- before this was fixed, in order for Tankers and Scrappers to attack Tsoo Sorcerors once they put up Whirlwind, you almost had to climb on top of them to be in range; you had to move in to be physically touching them before your melee attacks would be in range. Three Dmg/Rng HOs would boost the melee range out to double its value, which wouldn't get you outside of the effect area of a Whirlwind or other PBAoE power.

Now, a Dmg/Rng HO is useful for a small number of Tanker and Scrapper attacks that are melee cone effects, such as the Katana level-32 power Golden Dragonfly, which is a small cone area; three Dmg/Rng HOs would increase the cone area significantly, making it easier to hit multiple opponents.

[Blueeyed]

[ QUOTE ]
this was most egregiously noticeable before Whirlwind was fixed so that it didn't debuff range on melee attacks -- before this was fixed, in order for Tankers and Scrappers to attack Tsoo Sorcerors once they put up Whirlwind

[/ QUOTE ]
HURRICANE

Whirlwind is that stupid SuperSpeed power.

And hurricane's still broken against Dominators and Blasters (or Stalker/Tanker/Scrapper/Brute ranged attacks), and it doesn't look like the developers ever plan to fix it.