Blood Widows suck

[BellaStrega]

I think it was a Blood Widow. I was doing a door mission in Bloody Bay with a couple other people and we ended up with a Blood Widow boss - a claws/something stalker-type boss. I was playing an ice/energy blaster. She was +3 to me, +2 to the other players.

When she stealthed and I lost targeting, I hit an insight and retargeted her, ran up, hit build up, hit:

Bonesmasher
Energy Punch
Power Push
Ice Blast
Ice Bolt
Freeze Ray

in no particular order. One of those attacks hit...I have two accuracy DOs in each attack, I had an insight for +25% to-hit buff, and build up for another +66%, and as far as I can tell, my accuracy was floored. She then turned around and two-shotted me.

What's up with this?

[Ohms__NA]

Never had too much trouble with Blood Widows. Night Widows on the other hand... pretty sure it's Night Widows that pop smoke. Hate that.

[BellaStrega]

It might've been a Night Widow.

I don't remember which one it was. I just know that I had +33% accuracy and +91% to-hit buff, and my accuracy was apparently floored after all that, and that is plainly ridiculous.

[Daedren]

Definetly sounds like a Night Widow, Blood Widows are annoying Cap Au Lt's that just tend to run at you and die, but Night Widows are the stealthers that can 1-2 shot you/

[Tal_N]

Nightwidows are easily one of the worst arachnos bosses to face. Psionic blasts, lethal and toxic damage claws along with the ability to turn invisible along with a very damaging attack. that being said... my corruptors eat them for lunch without any other inspirations than blue pills. :)

[Work_Ethic]

:eek:

Wow....yeah missions in the PVP zones are really tough- I have only PVP'd with my tanker or stalker and with my tanker the mission difficulty HAS to be set to like the middle or lowest one cause the end baddie is gonna be a widow and they suck a$$!! They are straight Kill. On. Sight. Kill fast, kill hard and cremate the damm corpse. You had a great attacks against her- but it sounds like the only thing you had going on for you was the insight- that once you "lost" her, she completely negated all your accuracy DO's and build up. That is the only thing I can think of. It doesn't sound right at all- but again only thing I could think of.

[Catwhoorg]

Night Widows are thankfully succeptable to knockdown.

They are rough, but not as roough as the Spider Bosses.

[Monkey_King]

Blood Widows can be extremely nasty if you let your guard down, too. They're no worse than, say, Meat Doctors but they can pack a pretty nasty punch.

Night Widows, however, are "eat your entire inspiration tray" time. That Smoke Grenade of theirs is just beyond brutal.

[Catwhoorg]

Blood widow or Mu Striker - thats a dilema on who to rip a new on one first.

usually the Blood Widow gets it from me.

[Palaquinn]

Typically with my MM, depending on the situation, I'll let my "Boys" cut loose and annahilate anything in a room. With the big upgrade on the robots the AoE is ungodly and can be quite effective on most mobs.

Than I met the damn Night Widows.

I don't care what anyone says about Longbow and how they suck, Night Widows are worse... MUCH worse.

They are probably one of the only things I constantly have ALL my "boys" hit at the same time because they typically do NOT loose targeting when the smoke grenade falls.

Oh... And the Force Bubble (The ultimate force-feild) is a LIFE SAVER in those situations. Yes it pisses off mobs, but it can secure a hallway like nothing else and keeps those damn Night Widows AWAY.

That being said... Damn I want a gladiator badge for one for the Arena...

[Constant_Motion]

I've noticed something similiar with long bow spec ops mobs, when they stealth I miss about 4 out of 5 times! :(

[Retrogression]

The bosses in the PvP missions in warburg are particularly tough, I agree. There's a Crab spider guy in the rescue mission and a Fortunata type (is that the blood widow)? in the clickie type I've done... I did quite a few of these with Pantha (nearly half of level 36) on Rugged, which is the setting she's always on.

The Fortunata bosses are the tougher of the two for her to take on. Their damage is undefendable to her except by use of the Wedding Ring and inspirations (though she can do it with those). The Crab bosses are easier for her but still difficult (often takes as many as 6-8 inspirations).

I never buy inspirations so the ones I use are ones I got from fighting the minions in the mission, whatever they happened to be. Damage, accuracy, defense, resist, and heal insps (red, yellow, purple, orange, and green pills) all help. Pantha has no need for breakfrees (lavender) and very little for catch a breaths (blue) -- I never respec'd her for ED so she has stamina 5 slotted ;) Pantha is now level 37 and is my 2nd highest character in the game.

The wedding ring is VERY helpful vs both Crab and Fortunata bosses, and if I use it I might get by without any inspiration use (or just one).

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was a Blood Widow. I was doing a door mission in Bloody Bay with a couple other people and we ended up with a Blood Widow boss - a claws/something stalker-type boss. I was playing an ice/energy blaster. She was +3 to me, +2 to the other players.

When she stealthed and I lost targeting, I hit an insight and retargeted her, ran up, hit build up, hit:

Bonesmasher
Energy Punch
Power Push
Ice Blast
Ice Bolt
Freeze Ray

in no particular order. One of those attacks hit...I have two accuracy DOs in each attack, I had an insight for +25% to-hit buff, and build up for another +66%, and as far as I can tell, my accuracy was floored. She then turned around and two-shotted me.

What's up with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

She was a Night Widow.

I actually like them, for the most part. They don't win through sheer damage. They are (IMO) an example of a boss that is hard through something other than huge DR + huge damage. I would much rather face one of them compared to some Longbow bosses.

They actually don't deal that much damage, unless something changed in the patch. I think you just got waxed because it was a +3 boss in melee and you were playing a squishie.

I've seen other people on the forums talk about them making themselves unhittable. I haven't had it happen to me, but plenty of folks complain about it. They use Smoke Grenade, and its clear to me that mob debuffs scale up in effectiveness when they have level advantage. This may be why I've not experienced being floored by them, but you couldn't touch her.

By the time you reach the 30s, they become LTs, and so aren't as dangerous. Of course then you get the joy of Fortunata Mistresses, who are Psi Blast Defenders on mental superadyne. Fighting one of them is easily the most psi damage you will ever take in the game outside of the Psi Clockwork AVs. Rikti and Carnies have nothing on these chics.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed something similiar with long bow spec ops mobs, when they stealth I miss about 4 out of 5 times! :(

[/ QUOTE ]

This all is a clear example of critters getting to cheat bigtime with the scale at which they use our powers. If my Blaster could get that level Defense buff out of Cloaking Device he's be unstoppable. Because you're right; I miss way, way more when they cloak.

I also enjoy how I can't hit Crey LTs who activate Focused Fighting, and a few others. You know, like the CoT Behemoths who activate Invincibility and I can't hit them anymore even when I'm the only opponent in melee with them. (And you can't hit them with ranged attacks when there are only two people in melee. Can I have that back on my Invul characters?) And don't forget everyone's favorite! That's right, Spectral Daemon Lords of all varieties.

[Hundred_Nations]

I encountered my first Stalker-type Mob not long ago. It was one of the most fun battles I've had. Not sure what everyone is complaining about. Isn't winning a difficult fight cool? I think it is. Most of the Mobs in this game are predictable, dumb, and easy to defeat. When I met one that spun my head a little, I was practically giddy...

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a Crab spider guy in the rescue mission and a Fortunata type (is that the blood widow)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Black Widow hierarchy seems to be as follows.

• Blood Widows: Red tightsuit outfit with black arachnos symbol details but no accessories other than an ovoid helmet. LTs up until 30, then minions till 35, then they go away. Blade "Scrappers" with toxic damage.
• Fortunata Seers: Red outfit, with black details with the cone helmet, the half cape, and that spider bra/harness dealybob. LTs until 35 (I think), then you don't see them any more. Psi attacks and Leadership/Tactics.
• Night Widows: Same outfit as Fortunata Seers but it's solid grey with some black and violet. Bosses in the 20s, LTs in the 30s and up. They combine the melee attacks of the Blood Widows with the Psi attacks of the Fortunatas, have what looks like Concealment/Stealth, and use Smoke Grenade (debuffing both perception and toHit).
• Fortunatas: After level 35, these minions replace both Fortunata Seers and Blood Widows. They look like just like Blood Widows except they wear the spider bra/harness that you see on the other Black Widows. They use Psi attacks.
• Fortunata Mistresses: These level 30+ Bosses look like Fortunata Seers, but the detailing on their costumes is bright red instead of black. They are Fortunata Seers on steroids, whipping off nasty attack chains from the entire Psi Blast line of powers. Prepare to be stunned, knocked back, immobilized, slept and generally be dealt a boatload of damage at range. They do not use melee attacks. They also have both Leadership/Tactics and Leadership/Maneuvers, and (at close range at least) they can see through at least pool stealth with Tactics.

Somewhere in there are also the Tarantula Mistresses and Tarantula Queens. These seem to be exceptionally rare. They basically function like Fortunata Seers and Mistresses, respectively, but their armor gives them physical resists the Fortunatas lack.

[Great_Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't winning a difficult fight cool? I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so, too!

Bummer that what I consider to be "difficult", depends on the following:

1. Team or Solo?
2. Which AT?
3. While Power set/Build?
4. My mood?
5. Am I playing seriously or killing time?

... but that's just me. 1-5 aren't just different every time I play, but they are different for other people, too.

This is yet another reason why the game needs to be "too easy"... you can always fight a tougher villain group on a higher setting, but how do you make it easier?

[Rad_Chick]

I am curious, I have the same problem with being unable to hit Night Widows - this is with Two SOs of acc in a single target hold, I simply can NOT seem to hit them with any of my "attacks" that have just one SO of acc in them.

I know the "mobs" don't play fair, but if my Smoke has a crappy amount of acc debuff in it, they shouldn't get elude lvl defense out of theirs. :mad:

[Suichiro]

I have no clue what kinda defenses that Night Widows have going for them, but lemme tell you something. I fight them at level 35+, I can fight an even con Night Widow and she'll dodge my Rain of Fire. I'm one of those crazy people who slots RoF for accuracy as well (I want all of RoF to hit for better scourge.) So we're talking something like 130% accuracy on a 'pet' that can't be debuffed by the Smoke Grenade they like to use. I've had them dodge all but 2-3 ticks of the power.

*That's* just wrong.

--Suichiro

[Flinx_NA]

I'll add my vote to the general consensus that Night Widows suck. Was running Sirens Call missions last night on my 23 tank on Rugged and ran into a +1 Night Widow boss at the end of a mission. We then proceeded to spend more than 15 minutes trying to kill each other. During the entire fight there was never a time when I didn't have the Smoke Grenade icon in my bar. On the rare occasions when she wasn't completely invisible my attacks (1 slotted with one Acc SO, 1 slotted with 2 Acc) could not hit her often enough to move her life bar more than a fraction. Fortunately between Stone Skin, Rock Armor, the combined regen of Rooted and Health, plus the occasional use of my self heal, she couldn't really hurt me either.

Couldn't get any help at 5am so I ended up leaving the mission to hit a contact in Steel for inspirations and finally managed to kill her off. All in all one of the most irritating experiences I've had in a long time. Really wish the Night Widows would get the current blaster version of Smoke Grenade.

Giving them the old Uber bugged version of Smoke Grenade is the wrong way to try to add challenge to the game in my opinion. I don't mind bosses that are hard because they can take or dish out a lot of damage, but nothing in this game is more irritating than missing or standing around twiddling your thumbs until the Widow fades back into view.

[Jade_Fist]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed something similiar with long bow spec ops mobs, when they stealth I miss about 4 out of 5 times! :(

[/ QUOTE ]

And also their extra powers when they hit 40.

Such as that nasty EMP grenade which zaps all your END and
drops toggles. Makes things a bit more interesting.

Anyway, it's nice to know that our Arachnos "allies" are giving the
heroes what they deserve. ;)

[BlackSly]

I got owned by a Night Widow once also (see the "big hitters on mobs" thread).

In a way, I love it. Bosses that are viciously dangerous, without doing it by overpowering their damage or their HPs or their resists, or by chain-mezzing you. Just defense, debuffs, constant damage that's hard to resist, etc.

They beat you. They don't one-shot you, they don't surprise you, they don't "cheat". They're just so full of abilities, that they beat you. Kind of like another PC, in a way, who is +3 to your level. I like it far more than giving Knockout Blow to mobs.

[Fuzun]

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious, I have the same problem with being unable to hit Night Widows - this is with Two SOs of acc in a single target hold, I simply can NOT seem to hit them with any of my "attacks" that have just one SO of acc in them.

I know the "mobs" don't play fair, but if my Smoke has a crappy amount of acc debuff in it, they shouldn't get elude lvl defense out of theirs. :mad:


[/ QUOTE ]

They don't get Elude level defense from their Smoke Grendes. They have a high DEF and Stealth to go along with it. That is why you can't hit them.

[blueruckus]

Yeah, have you ever used Night Widows on gladiator matches? High probability of a win with them on your team.

[Thorny_Toad]

Blood widows suck... true. But they suck on a much better level than, say, Longbow Wardens sporting KO Blow.

I really like that the devs are getting away from: "give the mobs more HP, mez and dmg" as the only way of making things harder. But we must give the devs time, they are new in this realm. For nearly 2 years, they've been slathering on the HP + dmg theory like I-can't-believe-its-not-butter.

To OP, I do think the fact that it was a +3 boss vs a blaster might have played a *minor* role in your quick death. How does your blaster fare, generally speaking, against +3 freakshow bosses?

However, as I said earlier... these new difficulties DO suck. Mobs with -percep, mobs with fear, mobs with confuse... These are things that it seems were never planned for, and have very few counters. I know I'm not the only brute that's splattered a pet or two accidently when hit by a succubus.

[Castle]

Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[_Ilr_]

My PvP-Builds with 2 ACC's in every power and several To-Hits in buildup have wiffed on these Night Widows enough times that I only hit when Streak-Breaker code intervened. I've never caught the animation of which DEF powers they use, or if they use any (could be an Inherent stat like rikti Drones ... in which case, SHAME!!, BAD DEVS, *hits one with a rolled up newspaper*) but perhaps a Defense power that's already pretty generous; getting a Boss-Class Modifier on it, coupled with Smoke Grenade (also with a Boss-Class Modifier on it) could be filed under "broken". ...just maybe :)

[LivingHellfire]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was a Blood Widow. I was doing a door mission in Bloody Bay with a couple other people and we ended up with a Blood Widow boss - a claws/something stalker-type boss. I was playing an ice/energy blaster. She was +3 to me, +2 to the other players.

When she stealthed and I lost targeting, I hit an insight and retargeted her, ran up, hit build up, hit:

Bonesmasher
Energy Punch
Power Push
Ice Blast
Ice Bolt
Freeze Ray

in no particular order. One of those attacks hit...I have two accuracy DOs in each attack, I had an insight for +25% to-hit buff, and build up for another +66%, and as far as I can tell, my accuracy was floored. She then turned around and two-shotted me.

What's up with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

J00 R TEH WIN3R!1! L3RN T0 PL4Y J00 T00N1!!1!six!11! :mad:

[HarshLanguage]

I know stuff like Night Widows' smoke grenades and that Chill of the Night -perception cloud in some Croatoa missions can be annoying, but this sort of challenge is SO MUCH BETTER and more fun than mezzing I can't even express it. Mez is heavily overused, throughout CoH especially. It's very unfair to squishies, because mez is basically a non-issue for meleers. And chain-mezzing... don't get me started, it should be removed entirely. Plus detoggling is just annoying, not challenging. Stealth and -perception powers, or heck, even Illusionist phasing or PP's MoG, are 1000% better ways to add challenge.

The devs would be doing us all a big favor to remove the overreliance on mez and add in more interesting foe powers instead.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
:eek:

Wow....yeah missions in the PVP zones are really tough- I have only PVP'd with my tanker or stalker and with my tanker the mission difficulty HAS to be set to like the middle or lowest one cause the end baddie is gonna be a widow and they suck a$$!! They are straight Kill. On. Sight. Kill fast, kill hard and cremate the damm corpse. You had a great attacks against her- but it sounds like the only thing you had going on for you was the insight- that once you "lost" her, she completely negated all your accuracy DO's and build up. That is the only thing I can think of. It doesn't sound right at all- but again only thing I could think of.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what happened. I targeted her once, lost targeting, saw her a second time, lost targeting, hit the insight, hit build up, fired off seven attacks, missed six times, got taken out in two shots.

And stealth doesn't negate to-hit buffs at all. It does reduce the value of accuracy boosts via defense.

I mean, defense can obviously reduce to-hit buffs, or to-hit debuffs can reduce to-hit buffs.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
I encountered my first Stalker-type Mob not long ago. It was one of the most fun battles I've had. Not sure what everyone is complaining about. Isn't winning a difficult fight cool? I think it is. Most of the Mobs in this game are predictable, dumb, and easy to defeat. When I met one that spun my head a little, I was practically giddy...

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, I didn't win.

I didn't win with +36% bonus to accuracy, and +91% to-hit buffs. It's not that I want a +3 boss to be easily defeatable. It's just that when I stack the to-hit buffs that far in my favor, I should have better than 5% accuracy.

[Phoenix_Lord]

[ QUOTE ]

• Fortunata Mistresses: These level 30+ Bosses look like Fortunata Seers, but the detailing on their costumes is bright red instead of black. They are Fortunata Seers on steroids, whipping off nasty attack chains from the entire Psi Blast line of powers. Prepare to be stunned, knocked back, immobilized, slept and generally be dealt a boatload of damage at range. They do not use melee attacks. They also have both Leadership/Tactics and Leadership/Maneuvers, and (at close range at least) they can see through at least pool stealth with Tactics.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still having nightmares about running across one of these ladies +1 to me. She wiped the floor with my Dominator 4 times before I took her out. More challenging than any elite boss has been so far (except Aurora Borealis as an EB).

They also seem extraordinarily resistant to mezzes (at least the ones I have). Even with Domination up, it took multiple hits to lock her down. Her damage was scary. The mez resistance was compounded by the -recharge she has on a number of powers. All in all a scary opponent (for a dom), which required Domination and a trayfull of Inspirations to defeat. In other words, I needed to treat her like a tough EB.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the "mobs" don't play fair, but if my Smoke has a crappy amount of acc debuff in it, they shouldn't get elude lvl defense out of theirs. :mad:

[/ QUOTE ]

If only. I could've hit Elude with my setup.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they have about 4% from stealth, and then a really big debuff from smoke. On top of that, they have precognitive abilities that grant them a fairly large defense bonus?

That makes sense. What's getting me is that I had a pointlessly large to-hit buff and it did no good. :( I could be overreacting, because it was +3 and thus the debuff was much more effective.

I'll see what happens against an even-level.

[Kerzak]

Night Widows are broken. I'd say bugged, even.

I was running around in Nerva with my Mind/Psi Dominator (I think I was 35 at the time)...and came across a spawn with 3 Night Widows, all of which were -10 to me.

I knew they had high def, but something else is up. My single target attacks could hit them fine. Terrify could hit them fine...
But I could not touch them with Psychic Scream. That one power was totally and completely floored...by a -10 boss. I bugged it at the time, but I can't understand why it was only Psychic Scream that was so horribly floored, and not terrify also. If they had super high AoE def, I'd assume Terrify to behave similar to scream. If it was Psionic def, I'd assume the same thing.

Smoke Grenade wasn't even a factor. They didn't even need to turn on stealth. I just could NOT hit them with Psychic Scream.

As I said, I bugged it at the time, and I still don't understand it.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]

To OP, I do think the fact that it was a +3 boss vs a blaster might have played a *minor* role in your quick death. How does your blaster fare, generally speaking, against +3 freakshow bosses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please state a little more of the obvious? I didn't complain about getting two-shotted. I complained about getting two-shotted after I used every attack available to me (one of them twice), buffed with build up and an insight, and having zero impact. If I'd even taken a third of her hit points before she turned around to hit me, I wouldn't be annoyed. However, my contribution was completely irrelevant - I wasn't even able to stack Freeze Ray with any holds from either of the controllers I was with to lock her down for a few seconds.

I'd do much better against a +3 Freakshow boss because I could at least hit it every time, or maybe miss once or twice.

[ QUOTE ]
However, as I said earlier... these new difficulties DO suck. Mobs with -percep, mobs with fear, mobs with confuse... These are things that it seems were never planned for, and have very few counters. I know I'm not the only brute that's splattered a pet or two accidently when hit by a succubus.

[/ QUOTE ]

-perception has counters. I used one in the fight. That's not a big deal. Confusion does, too, in powersets as well as inspirations. Several powersets have had +perception, confuse protection, and fear protection added with issue 4 and later updates.

[MissDemeanor]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember which one it was. I just know that I had +33% accuracy and +91% to-hit buff, and my accuracy was apparently floored after all that, and that is plainly ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:

Binomial probability distribution
Let's say your changce of hitting is 95%. Your 1-hit-of-6 scenario is unlikely, but not impossible:

p=0.95 N=6 k=1 or less
p=1.8E-6 A long shot (half a million to one), but far from impossible...and almost guaranteed to happen in CoX to someone several nightly, given the number of rolls we all generate.

Let's say your chance of hitting is somewhat reduced, to 50%
p=0.50 N=6 k=1
p=0.10- Now it's only 9:1. You'll see this one a DOZEN times a night, if you're defeating a lot of villians.

----------------------------

Draw a bigger sample, at least. Six rolls tells us virtually nothing about Accuracy, and is nowhere near a large enough sample to draw conclusions from.

[Flaming1]

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, big guy?

You might wanna take a look at how excrutiatingly painful Smoke Grenade stacking is, especially since it's an AoE. Full team with quad-stacked Smoke 'nade? Yeah, no.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

So starting from +3 (you are starting off with only 55% chance to hit), and then adding +91% tohit, gives 146% base chance to hit. Then there's about 8% defense due to stealth, and indetermined (but implied significantly higher) inherent defense (precog), and then a +3 smoke grenade (which I think is operating at something like 150% of normal). Hmm, it sounds like a bad luck streak; I don't think I can get that to work out to very low net accuracy without presuming extremely high inherent defense on the night widow, or a really really strong smoke grenade.

[Thorny_Toad]

Speaking partly form memory here, but it could have just been a bad luck streak. I'm thinking back to the conversation we had with a several devs about how the streak-breaker works. Without digging that post back up, the basic premise was that the lower your acc (on your lowest attack) the longer the streak needed to be before the breaker kicks in.

So, before you poped that insight and BU... did you fire off even 1 shot? If so, you were probably at the 5% floor at that point. That puts you somewhere around 50-100 misses before the breaker kicks in.

So, chances are you had no streak-breaker to speak of...

Lets assume your final acc (to-hit, whatever) was in the neighborhood of 50%. It is completley feesable (however unlikley) that you could whiff 6 outta 7 with a 50/50. Hell, you can flip a coin and get heads 6 out of 7.

I say chalk this one up to terrible luck, and being -3 lvls to a nasty debuff. However, if you start seeing this kinda thing often... that might be cause for alarm. Or at least enough to warrant a kindly Dev to double-check the debuff numbers on them ;)

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations

[/ QUOTE ]
BTW, Castle... you're are a sick, evil, [censored]! I knew there was a reason I liked you :D

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking partly form memory here, but it could have just been a bad luck streak. I'm thinking back to the conversation we had with a several devs about how the streak-breaker works. Without digging that post back up, the basic premise was that the lower your acc (on your lowest attack) the longer the streak needed to be before the breaker kicks in.

So, before you poped that insight and BU... did you fire off even 1 shot? If so, you were probably at the 5% floor at that point. That puts you somewhere around 50-100 misses before the breaker kicks in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I didn't use a single attack before I used the insight, or before I used build up. All of my attacks had exactly the same slotting (two +3 Accuracy DOs).

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]

Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm going to stick with my intuition here.

[Outrider]

I am betting someone didn't check the decimal point for smoke grenade when giving them powers. If its a 10.00% debuff, it could be 100.0% and when the npc is higher it only gets worse trying to defeat their defences. Of course, my AR/Device's smoke grenade is completely worthless as I miss the intended target most of the time and it hits all the mobs around it, but that just could be me.

[BellaStrega]

Okay, aside from the kvetching in my initial post, followed by all the discussion: I have to wait and see how an even to +1 level Night Widow does, because it might all just be the +3 level boost.

The whole point was just to vent some (hopefully) harmless steam. However, as such threads always do, it drew people to explain game mechanics and offer helpful advice and such, and of course polarizing arguments.

It is possible the Night Widow is debuffing too much - but a +3 boss against characters with DOs is going to be a pain in the [censored] no matter what.

I'm not upset that I couldn't finish her off, I just wanted to get a few good hits in. It surprised me that I didn't get any in. With as much buffing as I had, my experience is that I should've been sitting at to-hit overkill.

But it's probably not all that big a deal.

[Mr_Morden]

I can't stand night widows. Even with powers with 2 ACC SOs in them I miss frequently (I am dark blast btw so maybe their def is higher for that).

Someone else pointed out that they missed more with their aoes, and that was the case for me as well.

They are cool looking, but something is up with them. Things that aren't smoked (like acid mortar and trip mines) are missing left and right. And these are not even the boss ones, only lts.

[Tic-Toc]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to relate something that happened to us in an Arachnos mission once.

We went in to fight a group that had a Night Widow in it. Being the brute that I am, I rush in, start clubbing away and after a little bit all the bad guys are gone. Being the brute that I am, I start making my way down the hallway. Then I notice that my teammates are taking damage. Then I notice that I'M taking damage. Then Ms. Widow's smoke grenade wears off and I understand why. The group I thought was gone because we'd effeciently and brutally dispatched them was, in fact, just temporarily invisible...and the new group I had unknowingly run into wasn't too happy to see me either. :P

Teach me not to pay more attention!

[Whippoorwill]

Speaking of smoke grenade problems, I wonder if they're using the original version of smoke grenade. The original smoke grenade had a decimal error such that it, alone, could cap a blaster's defence. I know, I soloed AVs using it. If this is the case, that may explain their exceptional defence.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
They also seem extraordinarily resistant to mezzes (at least the ones I have). Even with Domination up, it took multiple hits to lock her down. Her damage was scary. The mez resistance was compounded by the -recharge she has on a number of powers. All in all a scary opponent (for a dom), which required Domination and a trayfull of Inspirations to defeat. In other words, I needed to treat her like a tough EB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, crap, here I did that big writeup and I forgot to mention that incredibly important piece of info.

All Fortunatas are highly mez resistant. Lieutenants take two mez applications to affect, and bosses take (I believe) three (or two "dominating" holds). This makes soloing any of them with a control-oriented character incredibly painful, and the Mistresses doubly so, since they will turn around and hit you with control powers in response. Repeatedly.

[Zen_Concern]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of smoke grenade problems, I wonder if they're using the original version of smoke grenade. The original smoke grenade had a decimal error such that it, alone, could cap a blaster's defence. I know, I soloed AVs using it. If this is the case, that may explain their exceptional defence.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have a feeling it is something of this nature.

I have dropped rain of fire on a night widow and watched not a single damage number pop-up over her head.

Considering how many ticks are in Rain of Fire, I would say that is pretty good statistical evidence.

Kali, I went up against one with my Fire/Elec with SOs and even useing Build-up and aim whiffed an entire attack chain. It wasn't until I came back with a tray of insights and popped 6 of them combined with aim and build-up that I could actually hit her. They have screwed up the nightwidow defense somehow and I think it merits looking into.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of smoke grenade problems, I wonder if they're using the original version of smoke grenade. The original smoke grenade had a decimal error such that it, alone, could cap a blaster's defence. I know, I soloed AVs using it. If this is the case, that may explain their exceptional defence.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have a feeling it is something of this nature.

I have dropped rain of fire on a night widow and watched not a single damage number pop-up over her head.

Considering how many ticks are in Rain of Fire, I would say that is pretty good statistical evidence.

Kali, I went up against one with my Fire/Elec with SOs and even useing Build-up and aim whiffed an entire attack chain. It wasn't until I came back with a tray of insights and popped 6 of them combined with aim and build-up that I could actually hit her. They have screwed up the nightwidow defense somehow and I think it merits looking into.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you need 166% (aim + build up) + (6x25) = 316% to-hit buff on top of your 75% x 1.33 accuracy to reliably hit her?

What level was she relative to you?

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I have dropped rain of fire on a night widow and watched not a single damage number pop-up over her head.

Considering how many ticks are in Rain of Fire, I would say that is pretty good statistical evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if that's going on, something is messed up.

I've attacked groups of three of them (LT version) in St. Martial with my Stalker and haven't had something like this happen, but my Stalker also typically disables one or two opponents straight off, and they get no chance to use their ranged tactics. Plus, maybe the LTs aren't broken. :)

[Suichiro]

Curious if anyone even saw what I posted earlier about acc slotted rain of fire missing...

Anyways. I tested this out right now.

I'm a level 39 Fire/Dark corruptor. I found a level 35 Lt. Night Widow to beat on.

I hit tar patch on her to keep her in the Rain of Fire as long as possible, I hit Rain and she consistantly dodged all exept 5 ticks on average. She dodged most all of Rain of Fire at -4 levels to me! Consistantly. And my rain is slotted for acc at about 130% acc if my calculations are right. Rain is also a pet that cannot be debuffed via smoke grenade, so that's not an issue.

I have a demorecord of this small little battle. I beleive they have *massive* def to AoEs like a Stalker does. I was able to hit her at -4 with single target attacks okay, but my AoEs would just whiff. This is not typical defense. This is not just a "hard to hit mob." This is not fair. A defense level that high combined with hide abilities is not a fair fight at all. And this is at -4! Without the aid of aim or buildup or a tray of insps, I cannot fathom fighting them at all.

_Castle_, I like the other Widows. I like the Night Widows too. Please look into this level of def.

--Suichiro

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Curious if anyone even saw what I posted earlier about acc slotted rain of fire missing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I believe Concern had a similar experience. By "similar" I mean "identical."

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways. I tested this out right now.

I'm a level 39 Fire/Dark corruptor. I found a level 35 Lt. Night Widow to beat on.

I hit tar patch on her to keep her in the Rain of Fire as long as possible, I hit Rain and she consistantly dodged all exept 5 ticks on average. She dodged most all of Rain of Fire at -4 levels to me! Consistantly. And my rain is slotted for acc at about 130% acc if my calculations are right. Rain is also a pet that cannot be debuffed via smoke grenade, so that's not an issue.

I have a demorecord of this small little battle. I beleive they have *massive* def to AoEs like a Stalker does. I was able to hit her at -4 with single target attacks okay, but my AoEs would just whiff. This is not typical defense. This is not just a "hard to hit mob." This is not fair. A defense level that high combined with hide abilities is not a fair fight at all. And this is at -4! Without the aid of aim or buildup or a tray of insps, I cannot fathom fighting them at all.

_Castle_, I like the other Widows. I like the Night Widows too. Please look into this level of def.

--Suichiro

[/ QUOTE ]

[Leatherneck]

[ QUOTE ]
Never had too much trouble with Blood Widows. Night Widows on the other hand... pretty sure it's Night Widows that pop smoke. Hate that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Echo that. Never had anything vaguely resembling a problem on lowest or highest difficulty setting. Is there some BW boss I'm missin?

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never had too much trouble with Blood Widows. Night Widows on the other hand... pretty sure it's Night Widows that pop smoke. Hate that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Echo that. Never had anything vaguely resembling a problem on lowest or highest difficulty setting. Is there some BW boss I'm missin?

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify the topic:

This happened the same day I posted, about 6-8 hours before the post. Later, I asked if anyone knew the name of the really tough Widow bosses, and someone told me it was "Blood Widows," so I went with that.

The thread is really about Night Widows, though.

[BaronFelippe]

Night Widows have evasion, the SR's massive boost to AE defense...

Well I think that solves that :P

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows have evasion, the SR's massive boost to AE defense...

Well I think that solves that :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Solves which?

That the night widows have something like 400% defense or to-hit debuff going on?

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows have evasion, the SR's massive boost to AE defense...

Well I think that solves that :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Solves which?

That the night widows have something like 400% defense or to-hit debuff going on?

[Suichiro]

So you're telling me that 35% def to AoEs is making -4s dodge 30 some odd ticks of 130%acc ?

--Suichiro

[BellaStrega]

I believe it's 45% aoe. :)

[RIP_Convict]

In my experience a small insight lowers your accuracy about 50%

[Zen_Concern]

Also, I notice that some people are commenting on LTs. I personaly have not ran into any LTs as far as I know, or if I did, I didn't have any problems with them.

With the bosses however, I whiff with entire attack chains that include rain of fire. The bosses I know without a doubt have something wonky with their defense. Even SR scrappers in PvP and stalkers in PvP get hit by Rain of Fire.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I notice that some people are commenting on LTs. I personaly have not ran into any LTs as far as I know, or if I did, I didn't have any problems with them.

With the bosses however, I whiff with entire attack chains that include rain of fire. The bosses I know without a doubt have something wonky with their defense. Even SR scrappers in PvP and stalkers in PvP get hit by Rain of Fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

The LT versions are level 30+, or maybe level 35+. It's one of those transitions where a mob gets downgraded in rank and becomes a more common spawn. Like how Crey "agent" LTs become minions later on, and Lost Anethemas go from Bosses to LTs.

[Suichiro]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe it's 45% aoe. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it listed as 22.5% def to AoE, with 3 SOs being 35%. Regardless, we know something's wrong.

--Suichiro

[Thorny_Toad]

And while we're on the subject of Widows suckage... let me touch on Smoke Grenade. Aside from the potentialy screwy debuff numbers, why is it that attacking doesn't reveal them? I know on the player side, attacking an enemy pretty much negates any stealth SG might be providing.

If you absolutley MUST keep them hidden, can you at least make them targettable (once they've attacked.) Nothing says "fun" like standing around getting beat on by enemies that aren't there.

[Kitsune9tails]

However it's calculated, Night Widows probably just have +90% Defense and Smoke Grenade.

What's the big deal?

I take Night Widows down solo all the time with my Level 22 Psi/Mind Corruptor.

Granted, I usually faceplant about 3 times in the process.

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Their smoke grenades are freaking overpowered no matter what level you are and need a serious nerf. They're not fun, they're frustrating.

[Knightslayer]

Heh, i like the new enemies... when i first saw a Night Widow disappear before my eyes while i was waiting to AS her with my Stalker i was like "Whoa!!! That's so awesome" watching her reappear a few seconds later to smack my team mates around was even funnier :)

[Catwhoorg]

I ran into 2 night widows over the weekend, exemped down into Missions in Sirens Call one was even con one was +1.

I missed one attack versus each of them - this is with 2 accs in the attacks and the unenhanced buff from follow-up.

They didn't fire their grenades off onto me due to chained knockdown.

Is there a melee/ranged difference for them ?

[Suichiro]

They seem to act like SuperReflex Stalkers, in that they have a much higher evasion to certain sets than others. I don't know if there's a difference between melee and ranged for them, but I do know that I can hit them with single target ranged attacks pretty well. Once I start throwing AoEs at them, even Aim doesn't help Firebreath hit them at -4 to me. That's without being debuffed from Smoke Grenade.

--Suichiro

[Suntydt_Villain]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)



[/ QUOTE ]

I saw the Jack In Irons fighting another big baddie and it was really cool. I have a screen shot as my wallpaper.

[BlackSly]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're telling me that 35% def to AoEs is making -4s dodge 30 some odd ticks of 130%acc ?

--Suichiro

[/ QUOTE ]

As I recall it, the Defense first lowers from your to-hit chance, and therefore could potentially floor it. Then you get to add in Inspirations and Enhancements, but it may be too late if it's floored already.

And it's possible that, just as NPC Brawl does a ridiculously higher level of damage than PC Brawl, NPC Evasion is much stronger than PC evasion. Remember that their Unstoppable doesn't crash, that MoG is about 90% resists, etc. They didn't suffer the Global Defense Nerf, we did.

[Peteroid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm going to stick with my intuition here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, wouldn't want the FACTS to cloud your judgement...LOL

[Castle]

*cough*

Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. :) I'll fix it today.

[Catwhoorg]

Error

Admitted

Fixed

Thanks.
Durn decimals get you everytime.

[Thorny_Toad]

And *THAT* is why we love Castle.

[Catwhoorg]

Yep.

Semi-daft question Castle -

Is this a Database type fix so actve right away, or does it have to filter through the internal QA -> test -> live flow chart ?

[Rajani Isa]

[ QUOTE ]
*cough*

Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. :) I'll fix it today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go Office Space :)

[CodeGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep.

Semi-daft question Castle -

Is this a Database type fix so actve right away, or does it have to filter through the internal QA -> test -> live flow chart ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everything has to filter through that process, database fixes are just faster because they take less time to implement.

[MissDemeanor]

Now that's interesting. An initial op featuring six single-target attacks leads to the discovery of an AOE defense bug...

Nice work Castle, and interested data-gatherers.

[Treiste]

Just in case it's not said enough - _Castle_ you rock!

Thanks for being upfront about it!

[Mr_Morden]

Can't say I'm surprised. :)

As I posted earlier in this thread, being dark blast I would miss tons (pretty much always) on my aoes (TT and nightfall).

Good to know it's being fixed as they made missions with night widows quite frustrating.

[Gideon_F]

[ QUOTE ]
Poster: _Castle_
.
Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. :) I'll fix it today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watches _Castle_ walk off then starts thinking. Evasion is 25% too...

OMIGawd Evasion may be at 250% too!!!

[Nevre]

Well, I guess that makes Peteroid and Dogstar look like the insulting trolls they are.....better luck next time.

Perhaps it isnt only the devs that need to apologize sometimes.

[_DTS_]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. :) I'll fix it today.

[/ QUOTE ]

So whos leg do I have to hump to get a 250% defence?

[BaronFelippe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows have evasion, the SR's massive boost to AE defense...

Well I think that solves that :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Solves which?

That the night widows have something like 400% defense or to-hit debuff going on?

[/ QUOTE ]

GG No re

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you're telling me that 35% def to AoEs is making -4s dodge 30 some odd ticks of 130%acc ?

--Suichiro

[/ QUOTE ]

As I recall it, the Defense first lowers from your to-hit chance, and therefore could potentially floor it. Then you get to add in Inspirations and Enhancements, but it may be too late if it's floored already.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a base 55% chance to hit the Night Widow I mentioned. Say she has enough defense to floor me - 5%. Now I have approximately +33% accuracy, which raises that to 6% maybe. (if I have it backwards, the difference is microscopic).

Now, I add 91% to-hit buffs with the insight and build up, which caps at 95%.

[ QUOTE ]
And it's possible that, just as NPC Brawl does a ridiculously higher level of damage than PC Brawl, NPC Evasion is much stronger than PC evasion. Remember that their Unstoppable doesn't crash, that MoG is about 90% resists, etc. They didn't suffer the Global Defense Nerf, we did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but against MoG and Elude, I would have capped to-hit because buffs are applied after defense.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm going to stick with my intuition here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, wouldn't want the FACTS to cloud your judgement...LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Those weren't facts. Those were statistics based on assumptions on top of a nastygram about how my sample size was too small to conclude that my accuracy was floored.

I've seen floored and capped accuracy in action. I know what it looks like. That fight looked like floored accuracy. Who cares about some lies and damned lies when we're not talking about statistics but a real event? No one cares unless we're actually trying to establish exact numbers, k?

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that's interesting. An initial op featuring six single-target attacks leads to the discovery of an AOE defense bug...

Nice work Castle, and interested data-gatherers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is kind of weird. :) But cool, too.

[_Ilr_]

[ QUOTE ]
*cough*

[/ QUOTE ]

How's that foot taste? :D

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

I have a base 55% chance to hit the Night Widow I mentioned. Say she has enough defense to floor me - 5%. Now I have approximately +33% accuracy, which raises that to 6% maybe. (if I have it backwards, the difference is microscopic).

Now, I add 91% to-hit buffs with the insight and build up, which caps at 95%.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.

To be honest, I've been noticing some accuracy oddities on both blood widows and night widows. Actually, anything that flies in general. Not terribly blatant ones like you are mentioning, but oddities nontheless. For instance, I'm perceiving (but haven't accurately measured) a hint that powers like brawl are hitting hovering targets more often than ranged attacks. I haven't gotten around to conducting a real controlled test yet, but of course it seems everything that hovers gets a lot more defense from hover than we do (i.e. rikti drones). Which doesn't quite explain brawl.

Honestly, its been hard to set aside hard core testing time when I have somewhat less playing time than I used to (more busy with work).

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]

That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not possible to have a miss streak that long with capped accuracy, which discounts the idea of bad luck, or should have right off the bat.

If I'd had something like 1 hit, 2 misses, 1 hit, 2 misses, I would've been annoyed, but not like "miss x 6 + 1 hit"

[Severe]

how bout on the night widows you get rid of the -acc perma smoke grenades while your at it..cause in glad matches you got villains stacking 3 per team now..and its just a waste of time.


so either get me a death mage or NERF THE WIDOWS!!! :p

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not possible to have a miss streak that long with capped accuracy, which discounts the idea of bad luck, or should have right off the bat.

If I'd had something like 1 hit, 2 misses, 1 hit, 2 misses, I would've been annoyed, but not like "miss x 6 + 1 hit"

[/ QUOTE ]

Its possible, especially across all players, to see an event like that. At first, I thought the streakbreaker would make it extremely unlikely, because the only way for this to happen would be for someone to switch from very low accuracy to very high accuracy, so it can only happen under those conditions. But in fact, thats exactly what's happening when you go from attacking something with base 55% chance to hit and possibly high defense to +91% tohit buffs. It could happen *once* if you hit the lottery (my guestimate is that this scenario might happen to someone somewhere once or twice a year). Anything above two people seeing this phenomenon would place it outside the realm of reasonable probability, though.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Its possible, especially across all players, to see an event like that. At first, I thought the streakbreaker would make it extremely unlikely, because the only way for this to happen would be for someone to switch from very low accuracy to very high accuracy, so it can only happen under those conditions. But in fact, thats exactly what's happening when you go from attacking something with base 55% chance to hit and possibly high defense to +91% tohit buffs. It could happen *once* if you hit the lottery (my guestimate is that this scenario might happen to someone somewhere once or twice a year). Anything above two people seeing this phenomenon would place it outside the realm of reasonable probability, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what happened. I conned the boss, lost targeting, targeted her again, lost targeting, hit an insight, hit build up, and started the attack chain. I hadn't attacked prior to buffing my accuracy.

I know for a fact that I've said this at least once. I have this habit where I don't hit bosses - especially purple bosses - until I've hit build up.

So, er, no way to get that miss streak on 95% accuracy.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot this:

My recollection of the math is not perfect, but defense and accuracy debuffs appear to be more effective against accuracy + enhancements (base accuracy *1.enhancements) than against to-hit buffs. I've always found - for example - +25% to-hit buff to be more valuable than +33% total accuracy (or a 25% boost over 75%).

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot this:

My recollection of the math is not perfect, but defense and accuracy debuffs appear to be more effective against accuracy + enhancements (base accuracy *1.enhancements) than against to-hit buffs. I've always found - for example - +25% to-hit buff to be more valuable than +33% total accuracy (or a 25% boost over 75%).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually well understood because the accuracy ehancements (and inherent bonuses like MA and Archery get) are multiplicitaive on the net total of tohitbuffs, tohitDebuffs, and foe defense. If tohitDebuffs and foe defense floor you, or even just come "pretty close" to cancelling your base toHit, then all those multipliers are multiplying a very small number.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
That's actually well understood because the accuracy ehancements (and inherent bonuses like MA and Archery get) are multiplicitaive on the net total of tohitbuffs, tohitDebuffs, and foe defense. If tohitDebuffs and foe defense floor you, or even just come "pretty close" to cancelling your base toHit, then all those multipliers are multiplying a very small number.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.

Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored. :confused:

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.

Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored. :confused:

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I don't really see any significant math in your post. I read the formula you gave as shorthand, not an equation. You commented that you'd sort of forgotten the math, so I was explaining it.

If that's not what you meant, sorry. In that case it's not clear to me what you were saying. :p

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.

Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored. :confused:

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I don't really see any significant math in your post. I read the formula you gave as shorthand, not an equation. You commented that you'd sort of forgotten the math, so I was explaining it.

If that's not what you meant, sorry. In that case it's not clear to me what you were saying. :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I did say having an SO in an attack would leave me with about 6% accuracy after getting floored and multiplied.

Sorry, I was a bit on the defensive after Arcana's posts - which were intended to be helpful, but the second covered something I'd already addressed. :(

[Work_Ethic]

Thanx for pointing this out Kali & thanx _Castle_ , hopefully this will get fixed "soon"(TM).

:D

[Rad_Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
Night Widows are probably my favorite creations, with the possible exception of Jack in Irons. geko designed them, and I built their powers. (Jack was a big team effort, I just love the way he looks.)

The majority of their defense come from their Precognitive abilities. The Stealth doesn't add anymore than three slotted Stealth would for a player. The Smoke Grenade, on the other hand, is brutal if you are lower level than they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they get the broken smoke gernade, I want it back too!!!

I call foul!!!

[MissDemeanor]

[ QUOTE ]
Those weren't facts. Those were statistics based on assumptions on top of a nastygram about how my sample size was too small to conclude that my accuracy was floored.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to test a question about probability (accuracy in this case), sample size needs to be large enough to overcome the probable error of estimate...as sample size increases, error of estimate narrows.

The math is arcane for non statisticians, but you can plug in a couple of values (StDev, your desired confidence for maximum error of estimate) and get the minimum N number of trials required to make a statistically good test. Your sample size simply wasn't large enough to make any factual statements (you may be right, you may be wrong, but you cannot be *certain* with a sample that small).

You can have capped accuracy (95%) and still miss 5 of 6 attacks, with perfectly fair dice...the entire point of the original response. It will "feel" exactly the same as floored accuracy (5%), if you put trust in your intuition and not accurate data.

[Peteroid]

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Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:

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Sorry, I'm going to stick with my intuition here.

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Yeah, wouldn't want the FACTS to cloud your judgement...LOL

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Those weren't facts. Those were statistics based on assumptions on top of a nastygram about how my sample size was too small to conclude that my accuracy was floored.

I've seen floored and capped accuracy in action. I know what it looks like. That fight looked like floored accuracy. Who cares about some lies and damned lies when we're not talking about statistics but a real event? No one cares unless we're actually trying to establish exact numbers, k?

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I just reacted to your comment, didn't really pay attention to the previous post. I just found the statement funny out-of-context...

But, I have to agree with the concept that a single event does not a statistical run make. Single runs can be remarkably un-characteristic of the norm - just ask the people who go to Las Vegas all the time...hehe

[Jade_Dragon]

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*cough*

Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. :) I'll fix it today.

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Heheheh. Ah, reminds me of the old, "Whoops, Personal Force Field defense is 9.5% instead of 95%" error back in Beta. :)

Durn decimal points. Got a mind of their own, they do.

[Arcanaville]

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Sorry, I was a bit on the defensive after Arcana's posts - which were intended to be helpful, but the second covered something I'd already addressed.


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All I said was that it was theoretically possible for the streakbreaker to admit 6 misses in a row in that scenario. What matters in that situation isn't whether you hit build up before attacking the boss - I got that part - but rather whether the last swing before attacking the boss was a miss, and against anything that might have had any defense at all, which is possible in a mission like you're describing.

The streakbreaker will allow 6 misses in a row (breaking the streak at 6 by forcing #7 to be a hit) if the previous swing was against something with about 25% defense. Base tohit was running 55%, and the streakbreaker limit for net 30% to 40% tohit is 6, so if the last thing you attacked was something with at least 25% defense (or you were somehow debuffed), and that swing was a miss, then your streakbreaker limit going into the boss - even if your accuracy was fully at the ceiling - would have still been 6 until you recorded your first hit, based on my understanding of the streakbreaker (55% - 25% = 30%. 30% * 1.33 for accuracy slotting is 40%).

Something not well understood is that the streakbreaker doesn't "reset" when you switch targets, it only resets when you hit something, or if you miss on a target with even worse tohit. In other words, the streakbreaker will ratchet downward, if you attack harder to hit targets, but it won't go upward until its reset by a hit.

If you had said "the last swing I made before attacking the boss was a hit" or "at no time in the recent past prior to attacking the boss did my tohit ever fall below 40%, definitely" then the streakbreaker would have been forced to break that streak, but I didn't know if either of those two conditions were true.

[BellaStrega]

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You can have capped accuracy (95%) and still miss 5 of 6 attacks, with perfectly fair dice...the entire point of the original response. It will "feel" exactly the same as floored accuracy (5%), if you put trust in your intuition and not accurate data.

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However, you cannot have capped accuracy and still miss 6 of 7 attacks in City of Heroes, thanks to the streakbreaker.

In the future, just pretend you popped out your patronizing lecture on probabilities, k?

[BellaStrega]

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Sorry, I was a bit on the defensive after Arcana's posts - which were intended to be helpful, but the second covered something I'd already addressed.


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All I said was that it was theoretically possible for the streakbreaker to admit 6 misses in a row in that scenario. What matters in that situation isn't whether you hit build up before attacking the boss - I got that part - but rather whether the last swing before attacking the boss was a miss, and against anything that might have had any defense at all, which is possible in a mission like you're describing.

The streakbreaker will allow 6 misses in a row (breaking the streak at 6 by forcing #7 to be a hit) if the previous swing was against something with about 25% defense. Base tohit was running 55%, and the streakbreaker limit for net 30% to 40% tohit is 6, so if the last thing you attacked was something with at least 25% defense (or you were somehow debuffed), and that swing was a miss, then your streakbreaker limit going into the boss - even if your accuracy was fully at the ceiling - would have still been 6 until you recorded your first hit, based on my understanding of the streakbreaker (55% - 25% = 30%. 30% * 1.33 for accuracy slotting is 40%).

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And consider the mathematical odds of that happening?

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If you had said "the last swing I made before attacking the boss was a hit" or "at no time in the recent past prior to attacking the boss did my tohit ever fall below 40%, definitely" then the streakbreaker would have been forced to break that streak, but I didn't know if either of those two conditions were true.

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I don't know why I should have to clarify that my ~73-75% accuracy against everything else in the mission was not below 40%. I mean, fighting Arachnos minions and lts who are mainly hitting me with attacks that don't seem to have to-hit debuffs in them and I'm hitting them with my attacks because I slotted for accuracy.

I feel like I'm going over the same ground again and again. That's because I am. I am also more than a bit tired of it.

Also, Castle confirmed that the smoke debuff is pretty harsh and that they also have good defense on their own (admittedly, not the 250% AoE defense).

[Arcanaville]

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Sorry, I was a bit on the defensive after Arcana's posts - which were intended to be helpful, but the second covered something I'd already addressed.


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All I said was that it was theoretically possible for the streakbreaker to admit 6 misses in a row in that scenario. What matters in that situation isn't whether you hit build up before attacking the boss - I got that part - but rather whether the last swing before attacking the boss was a miss, and against anything that might have had any defense at all, which is possible in a mission like you're describing.

The streakbreaker will allow 6 misses in a row (breaking the streak at 6 by forcing #7 to be a hit) if the previous swing was against something with about 25% defense. Base tohit was running 55%, and the streakbreaker limit for net 30% to 40% tohit is 6, so if the last thing you attacked was something with at least 25% defense (or you were somehow debuffed), and that swing was a miss, then your streakbreaker limit going into the boss - even if your accuracy was fully at the ceiling - would have still been 6 until you recorded your first hit, based on my understanding of the streakbreaker (55% - 25% = 30%. 30% * 1.33 for accuracy slotting is 40%).

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And consider the mathematical odds of that happening?


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I did, and stated what they were, which is very very low.


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If you had said "the last swing I made before attacking the boss was a hit" or "at no time in the recent past prior to attacking the boss did my tohit ever fall below 40%, definitely" then the streakbreaker would have been forced to break that streak, but I didn't know if either of those two conditions were true.

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I don't know why I should have to clarify that my ~73-75% accuracy against everything else in the mission was not below 40%. I mean, fighting Arachnos minions and lts who are mainly hitting me with attacks that don't seem to have to-hit debuffs in them and I'm hitting them with my attacks because I slotted for accuracy.

I feel like I'm going over the same ground again and again. That's because I am. I am also more than a bit tired of it.


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I'm sorry you feel frustrated by the questions. It wasn't intended to doubt your observations, but to look for an explanation for them. Since you didn't describe the situation in total, there were a lot of details that would be potentially significant to me in looking at an accuracy problem. For example, you don't specify if the boss was the first thing in the spawn you attacked; its possible looking from my end that the boss might have been the last thing attacked, and you were already debuffed by smoke; that might have been enough to lower your to hit against other targets low enough to cause the streakbreaker to be "off" when you switched to the boss. Or its possible that you attacked an LT with sufficient defense to drive accuracy-slotted attacks to 40% without needing debuffing prior to attacking the boss: arachnos LTs sometimes seem to have significant defense from what I've noticed. Without being there, there's no way to be sure without clarification, and I double-checked very carefully to see if at any time you made a definitive statement about any of these conditions before mentioning them.

[BellaStrega]

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I'm sorry you feel frustrated by the questions. It wasn't intended to doubt your observations, but to look for an explanation for them. Since you didn't describe the situation in total, there were a lot of details that would be potentially significant to me in looking at an accuracy problem. For example, you don't specify if the boss was the first thing in the spawn you attacked; its possible looking from my end that the boss might have been the last thing attacked, and you were already debuffed by smoke; that might have been enough to lower your to hit against other targets low enough to cause the streakbreaker to be "off" when you switched to the boss. Or its possible that you attacked an LT with sufficient defense to drive accuracy-slotted attacks to 40% without needing debuffing prior to attacking the boss: arachnos LTs sometimes seem to have significant defense from what I've noticed. Without being there, there's no way to be sure without clarification, and I double-checked very carefully to see if at any time you made a definitive statement about any of these conditions before mentioning them.

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Well, until that specific fight, I wasn't having any trouble hitting stuff. I mean, I wasn't hitting them every time, but I was hitting more than half the time, which isn't bad. In this particular fight, I tabbed through the targets until I got to the boss, lost the boss, got the boss, lost the boss, hit an insight. As I recall, the first target I hit in the spawn was the boss - I know this because a) build up was up, and b) I was at full health.

A lot of my frustration comes from the guy who felt the need to lecture on the obvious. I do feel that my accuracy was floored or close to it, rather than simply reduced to 30-40% (as the streak could imply), but that's also due to the fact that my teammates were having similar issues.

[BaronFelippe]

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I'm sorry you feel frustrated by the questions. It wasn't intended to doubt your observations, but to look for an explanation for them. Since you didn't describe the situation in total, there were a lot of details that would be potentially significant to me in looking at an accuracy problem. For example, you don't specify if the boss was the first thing in the spawn you attacked; its possible looking from my end that the boss might have been the last thing attacked, and you were already debuffed by smoke; that might have been enough to lower your to hit against other targets low enough to cause the streakbreaker to be "off" when you switched to the boss. Or its possible that you attacked an LT with sufficient defense to drive accuracy-slotted attacks to 40% without needing debuffing prior to attacking the boss: arachnos LTs sometimes seem to have significant defense from what I've noticed. Without being there, there's no way to be sure without clarification, and I double-checked very carefully to see if at any time you made a definitive statement about any of these conditions before mentioning them.

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Well, until that specific fight, I wasn't having any trouble hitting stuff. I mean, I wasn't hitting them every time, but I was hitting more than half the time, which isn't bad. In this particular fight, I tabbed through the targets until I got to the boss, lost the boss, got the boss, lost the boss, hit an insight. As I recall, the first target I hit in the spawn was the boss - I know this because a) build up was up, and b) I was at full health.

A lot of my frustration comes from the guy who felt the need to lecture on the obvious. I do feel that my accuracy was floored or close to it, rather than simply reduced to 30-40% (as the streak could imply), but that's also due to the fact that my teammates were having similar issues.

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Just stop, you lost this thread, I told you they have evasion, and you questioned it, and the red name slapped you up side the head with the numbers

GG

[BellaStrega]

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Just stop, you lost this thread, I told you they have evasion, and you questioned it, and the red name slapped you up side the head with the numbers

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The AoE defense they have is a tangent to my own post, which was about a chain of single-target attacks.

Please explain in as much detail as possible how 250% AoE defense has any effect on:

Ice Bolt, Ice Blast, Freeze Ray, Power Thrust, Energy Punch, and Bonesmasher?

That is to say, get with the program: We're not talking about the AoE defense.

Edit: Removed Bitter Ice Blast, as I hadn't picked it up yet.

Also edit: I did not question whether they had evasion. I questioned whether the AoE defense that people were coming up with for Night Widows was reasonable. From Castle's post, I overestimated, but not by very much.