Devs: Any hope for the flight pool? [Archive]

Brog

01-23-2006, 12:27 PM

I'd like to see something done about flight too. I have hover 3 slotted on my brute, which works well for PvE missions for added defense and great range of motion (the fact that I usually team with kinetics corruptor is nice too, SB FTW). I took TP as my main method of transportation. As for the PvP aspect, it's not so great, I can't chase anything down. I have to rely on team mates to slow/hold my prey.

I took fly on two of my other villains though, It's a little disappointing. Very slow, lots of end. Some may argue that you get unlimited mobility. I would counter that there are likely more -fly powers than there are against other travel powers, and they're all targeted. What i mean is all you have to do to bring down a flier is target that person, click your power, and he falls, provided it connects. Almost all other counter travel powers are AoE (exept for Lingering radiation and ice blasts/shiver), meaning, that they can be avoided if a player is observant enough to go around.

tangent.

I agree that flight speed should be looked at and/or the end cost of it.

Black_Scourge

01-23-2006, 01:15 PM

All of my toons had fly pool, but since ED I'm now disgusted with it, especially for PVP. Hover is so unreasonable at its current speed. To compound this, there is like double the amount of -fly powers out there, compared to -jump, to clip our wings even further. This is another example of the devs backing us into particular pools, like they did pre ED with Hasten, and Stamina. Jump pool FTW........

Ohms__NA

01-23-2006, 02:20 PM

Good heavens man! When they finally got around to dealing with Fly, they broke it all to hell. Let's not encourage them.

Luminara

01-23-2006, 03:29 PM

The last word received on any potential buffs for Hover, or any of the other pre-travel movement powers, has been "No."

According to the developer with whom I spoke, the reasoning is that buffing Hover, Hurdle, Swift, Sprint, Quickness, Combat Jumping, or any other pre-travel movement power will permit players to create characters capable of bypassing Suppression.

The original excuse for failing to buff the pre-travel movement powers when ED was being implimented was, according to Statesman, "To ensure that movement buffs would always be necessary and appreciated". When it was pointed out that movement buffs are, in reality, limited to a very select few powersets, and that said buffs were no more available or less welcome in the pre-ED game, Statesman agreed that the failure to buff the powers in question was an oversight.

So the answer was originally "Yes, we'll see what we can do", but is now, "No, we think Hover is overpowered".

To expand on this, I made it a point to mention that Suppression was currently EASILY avoidable with Inertial Reduction, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, or SR scrappers slotting 3 Run Speed SOs in Swift, Sprint, and Quickness, as well as anyone slotting 3 Jump SOs in Hurdle and 2 Jump SOs in Sprint. The response to this was, "Good points, but that doesn't mean we agree that Hover (my note here, a power that REQUIRES a MINIMUM of 3 slots just to keep up with UNSLOTTED SPRINT) should be buffed."

They are attempting to find a method of implimenting Suppression across the board, at which time they "may take another look at the powers".

In other words, don't hold your breath.

unholy_parasite

01-23-2006, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real issue in this question is balance. While logistically speaking yes you should be able to get from point A to point B faster when moving in a straight line. However, the balance supposedly comes from flight's safety (I'm not advocating what the devs have done in fact I find it just as deplorable as you, I'm just trying to reasonably explain it.) The risk when taking off from point A using SJ is in the fact that you inevitably must land, occasionally in a group of mobs. Whereas, using flight all mobs (save the high flying longbow versions of sky skiffs etc.,) are avoidable lowering the amount of risk you have. If flight were faster that SJ, SS, or TP, than what would be the point of anyone taking any of the other travel powers if they can get from point A to point B not only faster with flight, but also much, much more safely.

EvilGeko

01-23-2006, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real issue in this question is balance. While logistically speaking yes you should be able to get from point A to point B faster when moving in a straight line. However, the balance supposedly comes from flight's safety (I'm not advocating what the devs have done in fact I find it just as deplorable as you, I'm just trying to reasonably explain it.) The risk when taking off from point A using SJ is in the fact that you inevitably must land, occasionally in a group of mobs. Whereas, using flight all mobs (save the high flying longbow versions of sky skiffs etc.,) are avoidable lowering the amount of risk you have. If flight were faster that SJ, SS, or TP, than what would be the point of anyone taking any of the other travel powers if they can get from point A to point B not only faster with flight, but also much, much more safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having extensively used both powers, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Super Jump is MUCH safer than Fly unless you Fly at or near the ceiling. Fly is so slow that you can't always get away if you use it to escape. Whereas I've jumped right into a group of ten purple mobs and been 150 yds. away before they can react.

SJ is the most flexible and cheapest travel power. Thus it is selected at a rate that FAR outstrips its presence in the comics.

Castle

01-23-2006, 05:25 PM

Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

BellaStrega

01-23-2006, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

HPorch0

01-23-2006, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen... sista? brotha? Who knows these days... If hurdle + combat jumping can get me moving as fast as superspeed, then hover should be good for something. Or reduce the god awful endurance drain on Fly. I can handle the supression during battle, but man the endurance drain is ginormous.

evertheskeptic

01-23-2006, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If hurdle + combat jumping can get me moving as fast as superspeed, then hover should be good for something.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense. And of course, that's why it won't happen.

Jade_Dragon

01-23-2006, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding was that the reason for the cap on Flight, Super Speed, and Super Jump was because of a maximum speed on the game engine. Since Super Speed's speed had to be superior to Flight, (since it had no vertical component) and Super Speed was capped at the game's limitation, Flight had to be capped, at 6 SOs, at a speed much less.

In fact, the cap ended up about 3.5 SOs. Which means that it can probably be raised a little, and still hit the cap at 3 SOs, which is now the limit. And since there IS a cap, there really isn't a big problem with raising it anyway, since it will always be slower than Super Speed.

Also, I've said since the beginning that Flying should start out slower than Super Jump, but I don't really think it would be an issue if it ended up slightly faster. It is the only travel power that increases in speed as you level (Well, I think maybe Sprint does, too) so you spend the majority of your time annoyed with how slow Flying is. The final speed which is being used for comparison is one that most players of the game have not yet reached.

As Flying is the only travel power that was capped at over 3 SOs, I think looking at it in light of ED changes wouldn't be a bad idea.

Slyer

01-23-2006, 06:06 PM

Why not half the end cost, and double the base flight speed?

Right now its the SLOWEST, and most end intensive "travel" power in the game. It will run you dry if you pick it up at 14 and fly across the zone with it.

Ryoku01

01-23-2006, 06:07 PM

Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.

This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...

EvilGeko

01-23-2006, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Castle. We know not to expect miracles, but perhaps you can get the lizard to do something. At least on the endurance cost.

CaptainFlamo

01-23-2006, 06:13 PM

Well, strength in numbers.

Anyway, I agree with points people have been making. I dont think that "safety" constitutues high endurance cost AND slow speed. Fly isn't that much safer in comparison to the others anyway (all are pretty safe to me).

Aaron123

01-23-2006, 06:25 PM

Just adding my voice to the group:
Less END, and a bit quicker would be wonderful.

Malcontent

01-23-2006, 06:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not half the end cost, and double the base flight speed?

Right now its the SLOWEST, and most end intensive "travel" power in the game. It will run you dry if you pick it up at 14 and fly across the zone with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slowest yes, but the prize for most end intensive travel power goes to teleport, hands down. I hope they'll look at tp too, I hate getting the red circle when i want to get the hell out of a bad situation, and the end use is horrible. Anyways yay buff to hover/fly! (I hope, I've got a lot of flying characters)

Teux_

01-23-2006, 07:16 PM

If nothing else, please please lower the endurance cost.

There is really no reason for fliers to have to stop and rest halfway across a zone.

While your at it, take a look at teleport's cost also? Both have been out of proportion with super speed and super jump since release, and it just doesn't make much sense...

Lokana

01-23-2006, 07:17 PM

I think Flight is fine. Most of my characters are flyers, and, even if my teammates can beat me to missions, I still think I'm far better over all in terms of hover blasting/buffing.

I'm still rather confused/upset at why Group Flight somehow missed the "Flight shall no longer have -Acc" memo. Did a Dev screw up here? GFly would actually be useful then. No, everytime I try and use it to get my pets up somewhere, all I get from my team is "Turn that damn Group Flight off! I can't hit anything!" Which really, griefing fellow teammates with it seems to be it's main function. I wish there was atleast some way that I could make it work on my pets only. Or, better yet, remove the -Acc like it should have been done a couple Issues ago.

Dragonkat

01-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Perhaps it's not a problem with fly itself so much as fitness pool interaction?

After all CJ + hurdle = all the supression free jump you need in pvp situations with minimal slotting. It's the travel power of choice for many of my friends too for this very reason.

Swift mixes with other ground pounding speed powers for more effect.

Yet from what I've gathered swift doesn't effect fly right? So if we can't (despite the fact they both really need one) buff hover or fly itself. Why not just let sprint and swift stack for more speed?

Total left field idea here, but what if swift (god knows how much coding this might take though) could be slotted with fly speed enhancers? Or just give a flat out bonus to it the same as running speed?

More choice is always better then less after all. ^_-

Ku_Rin

01-23-2006, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Physics my boy! The hopping person need only get a greater horizontal velocity than the flying guy. Granted this would require much more work but it is physically possible. Perhaps people who fly are just lazy?

Arcanaville

01-23-2006, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

My view on hover/fly, speaking as someone who has leveled to 50 with each of the main travel powers essentially exclusively at least once, but now is a die-hard flier, is this:

Fly as a travel power should have end cost no higher than natural end recovery. I wouldn't mind if you were required to turn every toggle off to break even on flight, but flight should not draw more than that, or else its end cost penalty is simply too high as a travel power - it *should* be usable to cross zones without having to stop to rest or accidentally fall out of the sky.

Hover should never replace fly, but you ought to be able to keep it on during combat and follow your team. That would imply that its unslotted speed should be comparable to normal running speed without sprint, and its 3-slotted speed should be comparable to 1-slot sprint or thereabouts.

Once upon a time, the devs decreed that flight had massive advantages over other travel power because of the vertical freedom of motion. One by one those advantages have been nullified as the devs have decreed that those very advantages were *too* advantageous. So hover/fly can't pull you off of patches because that's "unfair" and so most patches have -fly (but of course, no patch has -teleport). Hover/fly can keep you away from villains who don't have ranged attacks, so now virtually all do (but super jump can escape from them faster than flight). Basically, most of the advantages of flight have been decreed to be too advantageous, and reduced or eliminated. But flight's costs haven't been similarly reevaluated.

Starsman

01-23-2006, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be as fast as spritn + swift tops, IMHO. Dont know how fast that is though, but it shoud also be at least as fast unsloted as just walking, maybe just a bit slower.

Opinions aside, Positron once told me on a PM that Hover reaching Flight speed once six sloted WAS by design, not by coincidence.

ED broke that design.

How about making it the same with 3 slots, or heck, make it so that 6 slots under ED will yield unsloted flight, as was the original design intention.

Fried_Jedi

01-23-2006, 07:52 PM

Pippy

01-23-2006, 07:56 PM

Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ideas&Number=4603085&page= 3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) was a pretty darn good idea.

Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.

EnergyStar_MsK

01-23-2006, 08:06 PM

I wholeheartedly agree that flight pales in comparision to it's other travel pools.

1. It is the only travel power that cannot meet it's cap with enhancements.
2. Even "capped" via buffs, etc, still isn't as fast as other travel powers.
3. It provides horizontal and vert movement, but so do SJ and TP, both sucking less end and SJ being as "fast" as flight and Teleport being (lag excluding) being considered the fastest from point A to point B.
4. SS d/n have vert movement, but it offers a stealth aspect, is faster than Fly, and uses less end, and is faster.
5. SS and SJ stack with other powers (sprint being available to EVERYONE as an inherent power and stackable with BOTH SS and SJ, and both stacking with powers from the fitness pool (SS with swift, SJ with hurdle) -- hover (and fly) stack with neither.

So it is in comparision to other powers that I argue that hover/fly should be looked at as they are inferior relative to their counterparts.

DrObvious

01-23-2006, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

2 direct points here:

Hover: I want this to be as viable in PvP and PvE as sprint+swift, or cj + hurdle. I would be willing to invest an additional power slot in fitness to get this. I have a toon with the flight pool who will be dropping it at 25 when it begins pvp, because there is absolutly no advantage over the other modes of non travel power movement. I want to be competative with hover, nothing more.

Fly: Others have covered this, but fly provides the least survivablity for the highest end cost, AND requires micromanaging between it and hover. Superspeed provides stealth and the best horizontal movement. SJ provides vertical and horizontal escape at faster rates than fly can get in either direction, as well as being the least likely to be slowed in both PvP and PvE. Teleport provides the best speed, and a quick way to drop rad toggles, at the expense of high end (but not higher than fly). Fly provides the advantage that no verticle obstical is too high, a feature shared with teleport, at a very, very high end cost.

DrObvious

01-23-2006, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to double post, but this made me think of an important question. After 30+ days of the jingle jet, did you feel overpowered with a low cost flight?

CounterParadox

01-23-2006, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If nothing else, please please lower the endurance cost.

There is really no reason for fliers to have to stop and rest halfway across a zone.

While your at it, take a look at teleport's cost also? Both have been out of proportion with super speed and super jump since release, and it just doesn't make much sense...

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense THEMATICALLY.

It doesn't make sense FUN-WISE.

The fact that Fly's end cost is slightly more than base end recovery is rediculous. One toggle, and a travel at that, should not sap you of endurance simply if you forget to turn it off for a minute while you're waiting for the team to show up at the door of the mission.

Combine that with the fact that it's teh slowest travel power, well, that's just a kick to the shins. Change one. Either one would make me happy.

Iodine

01-23-2006, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.

This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...

[/ QUOTE ]

ED brought many things. Silence. Placation. Lies. Hypocracy. Now, more Spin. Not Goodness. One of the casualties in the ED experiment was Hover and Statesman all but admitted this 3 months ago when he claimed he was going to discuss the issue with geko.

Just what were the results of his discussion? Could this development team even fathom making Travel Powers exempt from ED? Do they have any idea how much morale would be improved if a 6-slotted Hover could retain I5 utility? Do they even care? Does Castle really think Hover was 6 slotted to be a Travel Power?

No, I don't feel Goodness. I feel SHAME.

It's a SHAME that "combinable HO's" was touted as compensation for ED - when anyone who wasn't asleep remembers HOs should have been made combinable when they were nerfed last summer - or NLT I5.

It's a SHAME how much disinformation is being spread about why this game underwent 3 huge nerfs in a row.

It's a SHAME that it's been about 12 weeks since Statesman said he'd discuss the 6-slot Hover issue with geko and there is STILL no announcement of the result of that discussion, nor a base increase to this power to compensate what ED needlessly did to it.

It's a SHAME there hasn't been ANY adjustment specifically addressing powers that use only one type of enhancement.

It's a SHAME there's still no newspaper missions in CoH, the ability to cancel missions, and few words on what's being planned for I7 or beyond.

It's a SHAME it takes an act of revolt on the boards to get any acknowledgement for major bugs (like the sound looping issue) or reversal of unsound changes in this game. (eg. CoV first Respec SF, stealth nerf to Stealth).

It's a SHAME the war on PLing and herding continues unabated while long overdue features and bugs take a number behind anything sidelining the Vision(tm).

It's a SHAME how this game's KNOWN ISSUE lists and Patch Notes mechanisms are still unexcusably broken.

It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.

It's a SHAME that many powers haven't been readjusted to a non-perma Hasten/Stamina assumption; since ED essentially removed Hasten and Stamina's previous effectiveness to the powers that were adjusted with a 6-slotted assumption.

It's a SHAME that after 2 years, many players have not only hit the wall ... they've been writing on it for months. What did it get them? Nerfed HOs. Nerfed defenses. ED. PvP balance? CityOfHero? Issues and content slowed to 3 times a year?

No ... Goodness wouldn't have been the first word that comes to mind.

BrooklynKnight

01-23-2006, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, woah there. Arent we forgetting Group Flight? Why does this power still have an accuracy penalty instead of supression? It completly neuters my mastermind if I want to chase after a flying hero with my bots in tow.

Aaron123

01-23-2006, 08:55 PM

Yeesh. He meant goodness as in the same use of "Gosh" or "Golly Gee, Batman! The Joker is one bad son of a [expletive]!" Let's keep the thread on topic, here. ¬_¬

Airhammer

01-23-2006, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope they do something with flight speeds. Thanks to ED, players no longer have the option of maxing out their flight speeds - it's impossible to hit the cap now. Really takes a big bite out of Hover as well. Considering the insane movement ability one can get out of Combat Jumping/Super Leap and Hurdle, taking the alternate approach of slotting the heck out of Hover shouldn't be penalized.

Statesman did say they were looking at doing something for Hover/Fly way back when ED first hit. It's anyone's guess when they'll get fixed, though. From what I've gathered, these changes take months to implement internally with all the multitasking going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Earlier it was stated that travel powers were overlooked regarding ED and that they would be looked at. I since have pm'd Statesman regarding this and got two responses neither of which were particularly encouraging. He never said it wouldnt be looked at just that it hadnt been looked at.

I enjoyed six slotted hover immensely. It made battles fun. The base speed of flight and hover should seriously be boosted.

Ryoku01

01-23-2006, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeesh. He meant goodness as in the same use of "Gosh" or "Golly Gee, Batman! The Joker is one bad son of a [expletive]!" Let's keep the thread on topic, here. ¬_¬

[/ QUOTE ]

That, and I did jump the gun. I appologise to people for unnecessarily bringing hostility to this thread.

Catwhoorg

01-23-2006, 09:20 PM

For fly - the speed at 50 is fine (with 3 SO's)

At 14 its not so good.

Maybe keep the cap as is, and just reduec the scaling downwards with level would overcome some of the issues.

Red_Zero

01-23-2006, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW! Just knowing and issue is an issue is pretty sweet. I had Hover 6 slotted for speed and Flight was also maxed out for speed. Hover never made a great outdoor travel power but is was good for tactical movement in missions. I really would like to look forward to getting a small boost to Hover. Getting a boost to Flight would definately be awesome.

One thing however, since we are on the issue of the Flight Pool, what about the issues involving Group Fly. Its very clumbsy to use for Masterminds right now and using it on teams aggrovates teammates who do not want to fly, and they have very valid reasons for not wanting to! The worst thing you can do to a teammate is give them a travel buff they don't want and that's no small deal.

Futurias

01-23-2006, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually used regular flight with big melee attacks? The suppression usually is just a second or so after the attack hits and then you are zooming off.

Hover is totally useless right now.

Futurias

01-23-2006, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. If it could pulse for 30-60 second duration flight in an AOE around you, you could zip in and out of direclty around the caster.

That would make it useful.

It can be fun to whip it out sometimes as peopls go "they have group flight?"

Dang, forgot to head to atlas to help people get the Top Dog badge.

WOW! Just knowing and issue is an issue is pretty sweet. I had Hover 6 slotted for speed and Flight was also maxed out for speed. Hover never made a great outdoor travel power but is was good for tactical movement in missions. I really would like to look forward to getting a small boost to Hover. Getting a boost to Flight would definately be awesome.

One thing however, since we are on the issue of the Flight Pool, what about the issues involving Group Fly. Its very clumbsy to use for Masterminds right now and using it on teams aggrovates teammates who do not want to fly, and they have very valid reasons for not wanting to! The worst thing you can do to a teammate is give them a travel buff they don't want and that's no small deal.

Jeffrey_NA

01-23-2006, 10:14 PM

Devs = Anti-Flightites

Oceanborn

01-23-2006, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

What about flight posture?

Any comments on that people that wants to fly while standing up like the Cabal witches? or in different stances like meditating, etc.?

BallLightning

01-23-2006, 10:27 PM

BellaStrega

01-23-2006, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Amen... sista? brotha? Who knows these days... If hurdle + combat jumping can get me moving as fast as superspeed, then hover should be good for something. Or reduce the god awful endurance drain on Fly. I can handle the supression during battle, but man the endurance drain is ginormous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sista, and I don't think Hurdle + CJ can match superspeed. :) It is pretty fast, though. Hover should be slower because it has full z-axis movement, but it shouldn't be as slow as it is.

BellaStrega

01-23-2006, 10:43 PM

Halorin

01-23-2006, 10:49 PM

QuiJon

01-23-2006, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since there does not seem to be any hope that ED will ever go away, I was wondering if there will be any changes to flight enhancements or a buff to flight speed? I think that it is kind of crazy that it is the only travel power that can not reach its top speed without buffs. Also I really miss my 6-slotted hover. If any forum users read this post have you had any pm response concerning any possible change to the flight pool?

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite honestly now that the accuarcy is not a issue, and the end drain is the same, and supression slows you down anyway, i personally say flight doesnt just need a combat improvement, its needs improvment as a travel power. It has long been, other then teleport the most costly power in slots with the smallest return. A base progressive speed boost that nets by level 50 about 10 MPH faster would be great. Also maybe knock about a quarter off its cost in end. I dont seem to have the end issues with jumping or speed runnign that i have with flight. Supression was supose to take the combat out of travel powers making them all travel powers again, yet it seems that other then removing the accuracy penelty (which i preffered to supression) it seems all the things that prevented flight from being used exploitively (is that a word even) has remained in the power. its the slowest, and requires more to max it then any other common travel power.

Teleport to me also should be looked at, especially for end cost if not for range.

Stigma73

01-23-2006, 11:17 PM

From what a guildie tells me, if you SO 3 slot hurdle and superjump you're moving at the same speed as someone using superspeed. From my experience with each being single slotted, I can believe them.
Also, for fly, if I remember right it did use to stack with Swift. I remember taking Swift on a scrapper who had fly, and suddenly seeming to fly faster than someone who had only Fly by itself. Same seemed to be true, once again if I remember right, with Superspeed+Swift+Sprint stacking.

Final comment, a prediction, what will probably come from the discussion with Geko is this: Instead of fixing fly, they'll nerf hurdle and swift so that they do not stack with superspeed and superjump/combat jump.

BellaStrega

01-23-2006, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Final comment, a prediction, what will probably come from the discussion with Geko is this: Instead of fixing fly, they'll nerf hurdle and swift so that they do not stack with superspeed and superjump/combat jump.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though neither of these is particularly harmful, and picking hurdle instead of an attack or defense is a real (if not huge) cost. It doesn't really matter so much in the later game when you have superleap.

For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).

LadyAndreca

01-23-2006, 11:45 PM

Yeah, flight is painfully slow without SO's. I have a level 48 scrapper with it 3-slotted, a level 24 defender with it 4-slotted, and a level 14 brute with just an endurance reducer in it. (Because, face it, I don't just want to fly, I want at least SOME ranged or smashing/lethal defense running at the same time. Stupid flying enemies/snipers.) The scrapper is fine, and the defender is fine now that she has SO's, but the brute might as well run because she's faster that way. And when I switch from the scrapper to the brute...yowch. It feels like I'm traveling with Hover.

1-slotted Swift + 3-slotted Sprint, with DO's, is faster than one-slotted flight in the teens, and keeps pace with 2-slotted flight. This is including time it takes to navigate obstacles like staircases and walls. (I'm in a duo and we use those respective powers.) Once we got to SO's, yes, I was slower, but not by much.

Endurance useage...it's just silly for a travel power to cost more than base endurance regen. My brute still runs most places and only uses Fly to clear walls because otherwise she'd reach missions with only half of her endurance--less, if I was running any defensive toggles.

My defender couldn't run fly and PFF (or Dispersion Bubble) together for very long until she picked up stamina. It's annoying for travel, and for missions when Hover just isn't fast enough to get Dispersion Bubble repositioned when a fight shifts.

To go to an extreme example, my scrapper (BS/SR) can fight almost indefinitely with all three SR toggles up as long as she doesn't use Whirling Sword too often. But it takes 4-slotted Stamina and an endurance reducer in both Fly and Evasion to just break even running all four while I'm NOT fighting. Toggle managing is one thing at level 14. Needing to do it at 46 was ridiculous.

Oh, and I do use Fly in combat with her, in short spurts or when I've got Elude or Conserve Power running. She doesn't have ranged attacks or Hover, so when enemies fly off (Freaks are notorious for it, as is Diabolique), I need to be able to catch them. Hover wouldn't be fast enough anyway; those enemies move at full flight speed for no endurance cost.

LadyAndreca

01-23-2006, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).

[/ QUOTE ]

Swift increases as you level, as well.

BellaStrega

01-23-2006, 11:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).

[/ QUOTE ]

Swift increases as you level, as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yes. I meant superjump the travel power rather than hurdle and swift the travel buffs. :)

Liquid

01-24-2006, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, but is this one sarcasm?

I never understood the claims that jousting gave an advantage in PvE. I did it a few times early on and noticed that they got a melee attack on me just as I got one on them, and they got to hit me at least once per pass with a ranged attack too.

When supression hit, someone said something about people soloing Countess Crey using jousting. What I didn't get was, jousting caused a MASSIVE hit in DPS, to the point that I don't believe anybody that claims they could beat the Countess' health regeneration while doing it. Meanwhile, I soloed her during this period while standing right in front of her, barely beating her health regen with a near constant attack chain.

Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?

Liquid

01-24-2006, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ideas&Number=4603085&page= 3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) was a pretty darn good idea.

Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested that when CoV was still in beta. Good luck, though. It's probably a workable idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember someone doing some testing a ways back, and determining that flight speed enhancements in Hover were insanely high. Like, an SO was +200% or something.

Think about how slow base hover is. When 6 slotted hover matched flight, there is NO way that was only 3 times base hover.

Edit: Sevael's Hover Speed Guide (http://coh.coldfront.net/index.php/content/view/565/32/), though it isn't working for me at the moment, so...

Here is the google cache (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:O5IJUpl5ns8J:coh.coldfront.net/index.php/content/view/565/32/), and the important excerpt:

[ QUOTE ]

Hover's base speed is only 1.3 yards per second (2.66 miles per hour). However, each Training Origin enhancement added increases the base speed by 41.67%. Dual Origins increase the speed by 83.33%, and Single Origins increase the speed by a whopping 166.67%. These are for even-level (white) enhancements. Each level higher or lower than your fighting level in a Flight Speed enhancement increases or decreases that enhancement's effectiveness by 9%. For example, a +3 Flight Speed SO will increase Hover speed by 211.67%; a -3 SO will increase Hover speed by 121.67%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tuft__NA

01-24-2006, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be nice if you could use it in fights to keep up with your team mates and pursue mobs, also when you are a meleeist.

Why should aerial combat be the exclusive domain of those with ranged attacks? Those with melee attacks wants to be able to use some kind of "combat flight" too... :(

Pippy

01-24-2006, 12:23 AM

ACcording to TopDoc's Movement Guide, the enhancements in Hover enhance the base flight speed (different fromt he base Fly speed!) which is 21 feet per second. Hover is very slow because there is a penalty applied to its movement after flight speed is enhanced.

So one possibility to make Hover more usefull would be to simply remove this penalty.

Shadestorm

01-24-2006, 12:29 AM

2 inf:

I have zero experience with SJ or SS, so I won't waste time with assumptions. We all know what happens when you spout off with no frame of reference.

I think that the best overall suggestion I've seen that's likely to both fit the vision, and address issues players have with fly is to bump travel speed enhancers down to schedule 4. Another that I really like/makes sense is that flight's base end cost should=the base end recharge. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) No other single toggle is capable of sapping your bar all by itself. Why is fly an exception? Now, I know that as per Statesman powers aren't adjusted around PvP. That said, PvP is where you're going to see the best of what fly has to offer. My blaster's got flight, and I couldn't imagine PvPing without it. For ranged attackers, fly allows any vector of attack to be chosen, typical ranged attackers are able to take advantage of fly/hover to attack from outside the range of most -fly powers, and in the case of a snipe, get moving pretty darn quickly. I think the reason there ARE so many powers with a -fly component is because of the utility of fly, however as it currently stands the end/speed issues could probably use a look.

There's also been a little bit of talk about looking at the end cost of teleport. My Stalker has teleport, which I took mainly for thematic reasons, but have come to love for escape ability in both PVE and PVP. I haven't invested a single slot in my teleport, just stuck an END reducer in it and called it a day. Teleport's ability to get around immobilize and slow effects validate its end cost. The only way I could see a balanced end reduction to teleport would be to remove that ability, and hence remove the only "niche" teleport has, as otherwise, compared to other travel powers it's pretty horrible. You can't chase anything with it, as it roots you (in midair) both before and after the teleport. Additionally, teleport is hands down the most difficult travel power to use, as you're limited to either a ~100 yard hop, or rooting for a few seconds on a solid surface (wall, ground, etc.) Again, I have no experience with SJ or SS, so I'm relying on reports from those that do have that experience, and I've yet to find a single person state differently. Still, for the immobilize escape and the instantaneous travel, it's well worth its pitfalls. Especially at lower levels when you don't have many options for mez resistance, or a bunch of tray room for breakfrees.

Hopefully we'll see some sort of change in the near future, and hopefully Cryptic will continue the recent tactic of buffing as a fix rather than nerfing.

Liquid

01-24-2006, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ACcording to TopDoc's Movement Guide, the enhancements in Hover enhance the base flight speed (different fromt he base Fly speed!) which is 21 feet per second. Hover is very slow because there is a penalty applied to its movement after flight speed is enhanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, thanks. This makes a lot more sense than the crazy values put forth by the other guy.

Here is the link (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Number=3086027) for those who are too lazy to search for it.

Magnus_Star

01-24-2006, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]
We just need a bit more speed, that's all. As far as Flight goes, not a dramatic buff to speed, but enough to make it just as attractive as a travel power when compared to Super Speed or Super Jump.

Lycantropus

01-24-2006, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]Heck, I'd be happy with it just being an effective movement power.

I think the idea on the boosts we're seeking are not nearly as dramatic as some may think (while there are a few exceptions of course). I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for Hover to be at least as fast as a single-slotted Swift+Sprint with 3 flight speed SO's in it...

Here's a thought...

How about hover, 3 SO slotted for flight speed, be able to reach the same speed as a single SO slotted sprint... Furthermore, allow Swift to be slotted with flight speed enhancements as well as the run speed enhancements it currently can be slotted with, with benefits being the same for each.

This would mean:

Single SO slotted Sprint= X speed
3 SO slotted Hover= X speed
wherein X is the same value for both numbers
Swift with 1 run enhancement= +Y speed
Swift with 1 flight enhancment= +Y speed
wherein Y is the same value for both numbers

It costs more overall to achieve the same effect, however that's fair considering Hover has vertical movement. all the same, it's not really that much faster than it is now... just faster enough, which is, of course, the point.

This will allow Hoverers the ability to keep up in combat for pursuit purposes, or in general movement on maps with teamates (I have a few concept toons that are always in Hover mode- one never touches the floor).

As far as flight itself goes, while it's slower than most other "travel" powers out of the box, the consistent vertical movement still keeps it in the "worthwhile" category.

I imagine the relatively small boost it would recieve if Swift were slottable with flight speeds would be enough to give it that extra "oomph" that fliers are looking for. After all, Super Jump, and Super Speed both benefit from Swift.. why not Fly?

Doing that would also get another power off that list that can only be slotted by one enhancement ;)

Thoughts?

Biostem

01-24-2006, 02:01 AM

What if they simply didn't make flight speed scale? What if 3 fly speed SOs gave you the same fly speed as a level 50 character's flight? What if the suppressed version of flight equaled hover with the same number of fly speed enhancers? Furthermore, when suppressed, fly should have it's end cost reduced to that of hover.

Now, how to make hover attractive... Well, other than being available earlier and having no prerequisite, add a resistance to -fly powers to it. Make suppressed fly still have the drift to it as well (to make hover still attractive).

Starfox_NA

01-24-2006, 02:02 AM

Flight is my favourite travel power, and I am actually fine with the speed. The utility in scouting and moving around is good enough. The problem is Hover.

Om my stalker, I have Air Superiority, Fly for strategic movement and the occasional aerieal attack, but my general combat movements is Hurdle + Combat Jumping. My stalker would be very dead if she had to rely on Hover to get away after a boss strike.

I have a tank, a brute and a scrapper with Hover. For a Fire/Fire tank (burnless) it works great. Being a little slower insures Blazing Aura gets the aggro. For a Energy/Dark brute, it works decently. Death Shroud is less able to hold aggro, so that utility is less. The reason I am not complaining is that I tend to team with a kinetic. But my MA/Regen scrapper is hurting, and hardly gets any play time after ED (she is lvl 46). Without Speed Boost, it is simply a pain to try to be a scrapper with Hover.

Starfox_NA

01-24-2006, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe - I guessed this would happen!

BellaStrega

01-24-2006, 02:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, but is this one sarcasm?

I never understood the claims that jousting gave an advantage in PvE. I did it a few times early on and noticed that they got a melee attack on me just as I got one on them, and they got to hit me at least once per pass with a ranged attack too.

When supression hit, someone said something about people soloing Countess Crey using jousting. What I didn't get was, jousting caused a MASSIVE hit in DPS, to the point that I don't believe anybody that claims they could beat the Countess' health regeneration while doing it. Meanwhile, I soloed her during this period while standing right in front of her, barely beating her health regen with a near constant attack chain.

Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could use superspeed to reduce the number of attacks you took, by breaking line of sight and otherwise kiting. You would still take attacks, but you could survive a bit longer if you were able to control the encounter.

Apparently, the ability to control the encounter was too uber.

Jagged

01-24-2006, 02:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You could use superspeed to reduce the number of attacks you took, by breaking line of sight and otherwise kiting. You would still take attacks, but you could survive a bit longer if you were able to control the encounter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strangely enough these are all things that would naturally occur to you if you actual could run at super speeds!

*smacks forehead*

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, the ability to control the encounter was too uber.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the forums I got the impression that with certain mobs you could trick the AI to swap between melee or range attacks or that with some mobs once they went to melee attacks they never went back to ranged.

I never once heard of a problem with travel powers, always with mob AI. So where did they apply the "fix" ?

I still believe travel suppression is the single biggest genre-breaking thing in the game.

Jagged

01-24-2006, 02:51 AM

Before ED I used to run Hover with 6 slots.

My flying Defenders and Controllers still use 3 slotted hover for combat but for everyone else I consider it pointless.

I dropped hover from my mains build.

Suggestion:
If they could just work out some code so that purchasing and slotting Hover increased the speed of Suppressed Fly then it might be worth considering again. Currently its a dead power for many of my characters.

Suggestion:
Still waiting for that FLYING MOVE-THROUGH

You know, something like this > Cov Launch Movie (ftp://ftp.cityofheroes.com/movies/COV_CG_Trailer_320.mov)

Tuft__NA

01-24-2006, 03:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flight is my favourite travel power, and I am actually fine with the speed. The utility in scouting and moving around is good enough. The problem is Hover.

Om my stalker, I have Air Superiority, Fly for strategic movement and the occasional aerieal attack, but my general combat movements is Hurdle + Combat Jumping. My stalker would be very dead if she had to rely on Hover to get away after a boss strike.

I have a tank, a brute and a scrapper with Hover. For a Fire/Fire tank (burnless) it works great. Being a little slower insures Blazing Aura gets the aggro. For a Energy/Dark brute, it works decently. Death Shroud is less able to hold aggro, so that utility is less. The reason I am not complaining is that I tend to team with a kinetic. But my MA/Regen scrapper is hurting, and hardly gets any play time after ED (she is lvl 46). Without Speed Boost, it is simply a pain to try to be a scrapper with Hover.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Blazing Aura and Death Shroud are continous PBAoEs that extends quite a bit, right? Does not help much much when all you got are zero-duration melee range attacks, like say for example MA/SR. :(

Monument

01-24-2006, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Any chance you can do the same for Swift? The Stone Armor folks would love that, a chance to get closer to our pre-ED speeds.

Ravenlute

01-24-2006, 04:26 AM

If ED affected everything than the other movement speeds should be slower as well, not just hover. Is that the case?

Knight_Marshal

01-24-2006, 04:36 AM

Nevre

01-24-2006, 04:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ED broke that design.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gads, how many times have I read that.

They certainly didn't sit down at any point and wonder out loud about how ED would effect each power in the game.

Pips idea of changing the enhancement schedule sounds good.

Gangrene

01-24-2006, 05:03 AM

Hover should be as fast as Sprint is. Exactly the same speed.

Fly needs to be slower than SJ, but the difference shoud be minimal for the following reasons.

SJ has some escape advatages built in that Fly does not, and a MUCH smaller Endurance cost, to boot.

Add to that that the speed of SJ currently is much greater than Fly even over a horizontal distance, making Jump dramatically faster at getting you out of range of anything you might happen to aggro. It is more than 40% faster, in fact, at getting you safely away.

Additionally, as other posters have pointed out, there is a huge selection of powers designed to bring a flyer down to earth, and much fewer for a SJer.

Fly's only real advantage is that it works well on indoor maps, where SJ and Teleport fail to have much of an effect. But even in that, Fly is outdone by Superspeed, which can propel you through spawns before they have a chance of reacting.

Minotaur

01-24-2006, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If ED affected everything than the other movement speeds should be slower as well, not just hover. Is that the case?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of, except that people didn't always bother to slot the other movement types as heavily as flight as they thought they were fast enough, so didn't really notice.

As Monument says, my main is a stone tank who used to heavily slot swift so he could move at acceptable speed in granite armor (which slows you and doesn't stack with any other movement enhancing powers including sprint for the uninitiated). This does need a look post ED as I now feel desperately slow. Possibly so as not to unbalance other peoples' movement, allow stone tanks to stack sprint with granite armor now rather than adjusting swift.

Mr Minotaur 50 stone/axe tank Freedom
and 70+ others including 2 other 50s and a CoV 40

Nightseed

01-24-2006, 06:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]Why not? You don't think a power slot and 6 enhancement slots is enough of an investment to fly as fast as we can run?

[ QUOTE ]
How about instead of Hover, rename it to Combat Flight and make it as effective as Combat Jumping?

[/ QUOTE ]It was called combat flight in beta. They renamed it to hover because you couldn't, you know, actually use it to fly in combat.

I for one admire the devs' resolve in maintaining the comic-book purity of this game and keeping aerial dogfights well out of it.

EvilGeko

01-24-2006, 06:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, but is this one sarcasm?

I never understood the claims that jousting gave an advantage in PvE. I did it a few times early on and noticed that they got a melee attack on me just as I got one on them, and they got to hit me at least once per pass with a ranged attack too.

When supression hit, someone said something about people soloing Countess Crey using jousting. What I didn't get was, jousting caused a MASSIVE hit in DPS, to the point that I don't believe anybody that claims they could beat the Countess' health regeneration while doing it. Meanwhile, I soloed her during this period while standing right in front of her, barely beating her health regen with a near constant attack chain.

Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?

[/ QUOTE ]

It can't. Suppression was for PvP, and I wish the devs would just admit it.

I can design no less than ten builds that can exp with NO risk much faster than anything Supression can do. Jousting could not let you beat anything you couldn't beat with a few lucks. The mobs have a near instant reaction time and can easily get a return shot in often times. However, players don't and jousting was a MAJOR tactic during I4 test when Suppression was added.

PvP is also why they won't go back to -acc that they started with. That too easy to circumvent.

SuperChris

01-24-2006, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's cool. While I'm at it, I'll throw my (many) thoughts on movement pools into the mix:

Fly needs a modest decrease in endurance cost and/or a bump to its base speed.

Hover is just too slow. If it were about 50% faster (whatever the unenhanced speed buff of AM or SB is) it would be a viable combat power. It should never be a viable travel power, IMO, but it shouldn't make me feel like a meth junkie needing a fix when I forget to toggle Fly back on. Adding some minor resistance to a soft status effect would be nice... maybe knockback and/or immobilize?

Group Flight has several issues.
1) -Acc penalty instead of suppression. This is mostly just annoying for my characters, but its a big deal for Masterminds and their pets, I guess. Personally, I think it needs be brought in line with the other powers.
2) Flight Speed enhancements don't seem to affect your "passengers," which causes people to drop if they spend too long outside the effect. Granted, an observant person will pay attention to these things, but still... I've been on the falling end of things, and it was very unfortunate (landed right next to a group of +5 Freakshow - oops)/
3) Excessive endurance cost. I can see it being a bit higher than Fly, but at least with Fly I don't need to slot for endurance reduction if I don't want too.

In reference to someone else's comment about Leaping, the reason that pool gets used sooooo much is its versatility. Combat Jumping is just better that Hover in most circumstances. Jump Kick is lame, but easy to skip (kinda like how Hover is frequently skipped in favor of AS). Super Jump is faster than Fly and allows you to get almost anywhere. SJ is also good for PvP since its much harder to suppress/nullify than Flight. Then we get to the real culprit, Acrobatics. Nevermind that SJ is a great travel power, Acrobatics prevents the bane of Dark Armor and Fire Armor melee toons, knockback. That's not even mentioning everyone else with PBAoE and short range powers that don't have some kind of status protection...

As for the Teleport pool, Teleport and Group Teleport are the only ones that really need looked at. Both are extremely endurance hungry, and Group Teleport really should allow you to "prompt for teleport" (maybe a prompt automatically prevents toon from being group TP'd). Otherwise, that pool is just fine.

Lastly there's Speed. Hasten was always horribly overrated, but its still handy for toons that feel the need to spam heals/buffs/controls or with powers that take an absurdly long time to recharge. Flurry as always been very so-so; good for managing endurance, but that's about it. Super Speed is a fun power, though suppression killed many a speedster concept character. And finally there's Whirlwind, which is just and odd power. Incredibly fun, but odd...

While I'm thinking about it, has anyone noticed Whirlwind doing knockBACK instead of knockUP in PvE? I ask because the other night, one of my SG-mates (a kinetic/electric meleefender) was reporting that Whirlwind was knocking enemies away from him, rather than juggling them. He was very upset about it, actually. It was his best tactic for fighting bosses. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone with Whirlwind or a banked respec to test out this claim.

Well, that was wordier than I originally indended... oh well.

Nightseed

01-24-2006, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover is just too slow. If it were about 50% faster (whatever the unenhanced speed buff of AM or SB is) it would be a viable combat power. It should never be a viable travel power, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]Why not? Define 'viable'. Running, to me, is a viable travel power and I get that for free.

EvilGeko

01-24-2006, 07:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If ED affected everything than the other movement speeds should be slower as well, not just hover. Is that the case?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly. Combat Jumping and Sprint when added to the Fitness pool powers Swift and Hurdle can become effective travel powers with only one or two slots. Hover gets no such help and is always onerous to use.

DeathstrikeII

01-24-2006, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I for one admire the devs' resolve in maintaining the comic-book purity of this game and keeping aerial dogfights well out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

Halorin

01-24-2006, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover is just too slow. If it were about 50% faster (whatever the unenhanced speed buff of AM or SB is) it would be a viable combat power. It should never be a viable travel power, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]Why not? Define 'viable'. Running, to me, is a viable travel power and I get that for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

To you, it may. That however doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I personally build my characters for concept, and my main character is a Martial Artist who's basically a powerful source of kinetic energy. He flies, and floats in combat. Hover used to be great for this concept, now it's not.

There's no real reason why Hover should be so slow, and there's no reason for Fly to have so many disadvantages in PvP.

Nightseed

01-24-2006, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that was my attempt at dry wit. :p

Nightseed

01-24-2006, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To you, it may. That however doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was bad quoting on my part. I meant 'why not' to 'hover should never be a viable travel power'. As long as it's significantly slower than flight (which could stand to be faster), there's no reason it can't be much faster.

aqshy2004

01-24-2006, 07:15 AM

It's ridiculous that fly is the slowest travel power and burns endurance like mad. Add the fact that hover is a miserable sad PvP power (because of it's slowness), we got ourselves the worse travel power so far.

Devs please fix the damn power!!! Who the hell thought it was "working as intended"? :p

THEpunishcrime

01-24-2006, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

i got to throw my approval on the hover debacle. since ED i haven't bothered taking hover for any reason on any character. i'll take the AS everytime, at leasdt it has the use of -fly.

hover is just a contest to see who can sit still the longest.

Halorin

01-24-2006, 07:20 AM

I think with 3 slots it should be as fast as Sprint and Swift, maybe a little slower. It's just hard to justify outside of purely for character concept any other way, if you ask me.

TheExcession

01-24-2006, 07:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely, and not only for the 1-13 crowd, either.

So many of the zones practically require a 3D travel power. The unrealistic placement of walls, cliffs, etc. make it insanely frustrating to play without a 3D travel ability (Hover, Fly, SJ, or TP).

And I'm not only talking about places like Faultline. It's pretty much every zone outside of Atlas, Galaxy, and Mercy. Getting off the ferry from Cap au Diable to Port Oakes and want to get up into the city? Sorry pal. Even though it's a couple hundred yards to your right, there's no way to get there without running all the way north and around through Marconeville. There are dozens of examples of these. And some zones (like the Shard) are punitive for anything except Fly or Teleport.

Looking for exploration badges? Again, better have a 3D travel power, or you're simply not getting a number of them w/o tp begging.

What's the solution? Well, better zone design for a start. It would be great if whoever designed the physical layout of the zones remembered that some heroes/villains take SS.

Unfortunately, better zone design in the future doesn't really help the dozens of zones that already exist. I don't see reworking all the zones just to un-gimp that aspect of SS, though there are quite a few spots where the lack of stairs is a criminal oversight and could quite easily be corrected and which would make SS a ton less frustrating and improve its QoL.

Vindicus

01-24-2006, 07:22 AM

Here's my take on the Flight pool currently. I've been mainly playing a Fire/Dark corruptor for the past 2 months, and I use Air Superiority and Fly. Obviously I didn't fit Hover in there since I took the Air Sup route. I use Fly in combat as a means of knockback protection.

Some people would argue that the end cost is acceptable because "we aren't supposed to use 'travel' powers in combat". Obviously the devs have designed travel powers around the notion that people are going to do this, or there wouldn't be any suppression. So to that extent, Fly should be a viable power to have running during combat. I don't think with its current endurance cost that it achieves that. Like many people I had the chance to use the holiday jetpack, and in side-by-side comparison the jetpack was far superior. The only failing of jetpack compared to Fly was the odd suppression built into the jetpack, but then that was probably intentional.

Getting to my point though, you can overcome 1 of the drawbacks of Fly with slotting, be it the slowness or the endurance cost. To handle both drawbacks, you would almost have to 6 slot the power, and it's a bit insane to invest that many slots into a movement power. (Though with ED many build have quite a few slots that are useless anywhere else...). So in short, one of the aspects of Fly needs to be addressed, the endurance consumption, or the flight speed. I would personally prefer the endurance cost be lowered, as End Cost reducers are more expensive. :p

Tifer

01-24-2006, 07:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

... perhaps you can get the lizard to do something. At least on the endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed on the end cost. Ok, it's the safest travel power. But it's also the slowest to offset that.

What is the extreme end usage for?

Tifer

01-24-2006, 07:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
While your at it, take a look at teleport's cost also? Both have been out of proportion with super speed and super jump since release, and it just doesn't make much sense...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I sort of agree with the Devs' thinking regarding the end usage on TP. It's very heavy on the end usage (could be slightly less, but should still be the highest) because it's the safest and fastest travel power.

With 3 slots for range and one slot for end reduction, I would never get beat to a mission. And you can get away in an instant, provided you have enough endurance to do so.

Powerhelm

01-24-2006, 08:14 AM

Yeaah...don't care at all about hover it's fine as is.

Fly however...I mean the base fly isn't much (if any) above Sprint for crying out loud...Fly's speed should be a fair bit more than it is base and have a higher cap.

Stupid_Fanboy

01-24-2006, 08:36 AM

i wouldn't say hover is fine. It was the only travel power that truly benefited from 6slotted and is now unfairly hamstrung. Fly does, however, need a speed increase and end rdx.

Treiste

01-24-2006, 08:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it would be nice if you could still reach the old 6 slot hover speed 3-4 slotted with SO's. I use to love it as a GREAT combat flight. I think I've respec'd out of it on most of my toons now...

And either increase the flight speed of flight the same, or significantly reduce the endo cost. It's a hog. It's slow. The jet pack was a not-so-subtle reminder of that. Sure it was slow... but I removed fly from my trays the whole time I had it because it didn't suck endo... that sure made up for the slowness. And I could afford to fly around with my toggles up, which was kinda nice for a change.

My super leap, TP, and SS characters have a much greater chance of 'running away' with their power. The endo cost isn't nearly as bad. (Ok, TPs endo cost is pretty high, but has a great escape factor.)

Sure, it's hard to PVP a flying toon without another flying toon... but not impossible. There's a heck of a lot of ways to bring a flying toon down...

Jagged

01-24-2006, 08:55 AM

I think the most important thing we should be getting across to the Devs is this:

This is a super hero game and aerial combat is a big part of the genre and should be part of the game. Its not. That alone should be worth your investigation.

Frith_the_Dark

01-24-2006, 08:58 AM

I think the big issue here was the fact that Flight uses so much end for very little speed, and hover does not. That's why everyone was 6-slotting hover.

Sure, lots of people would like to see the speed of hover increased, but I would rather see the speed of flight increased and it's end drain cut to level out closer to super speed or super jump. There's a reason why 90% of people take those two powers; they're fast and cheap to use.

If you put flight on somewhat similar footing, you'll no doubt see about as many fliers as you do jumpers and runners. I don't want to see flight faster than super speed, but I most definately don't want to have all my end drained using flight just to get across a zone. It's not very heroic (or villanous for that matter) to fly accross a city scape to fight a big battle only to tell your foe "wait a minute. I've got to catch my breath."

Catwhoorg

01-24-2006, 09:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the most important thing we should be getting across to the Devs is this:

This is a super hero game and aerial combat is a big part of the genre and should be part of the game. Its not. That alone should be worth your investigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like this perhaps ? (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/catwhoorg/b1aeb859.jpg)

EvilGeko

01-24-2006, 09:07 AM

An EvilGeko's wish for the Flight Power Pool

AIR SUPERIORITY - NO NERFS!

Justification - If it ain't broke; don't fix it!

HOVER - Base speed increased to base walking speed; flight speed enhancers moved to schedule C; protection to disorient

Justification - Slight speed increase, moving speed enhancers to C still only provides a bit more than now. The mez protection is just a balance with CJ immobilize protection. It would be nice if Hasten had Sleep protection for symmetry, but I won't push my luck.

FLIGHT - End the scaling. Power is as fast at level 14 as it is at level 50. Reduce endurance cost to that of SS.

Justification - As others have stated Flight at level 50 is more or less fine. The flight speed enhancer thing gives it a slight boost. Low level fliers no longer feel like a slow burden to their groups. Pre-Stamina; SOs flight doesn't drain you of endurance

GROUP FLIGHT - End any scaling. No additional cost for each teammate.

Gangrene

01-24-2006, 09:14 AM

If you wanted to justify people taking Hover, then give it a more significant Defense %. Like 7-12%. Then people would fall all over themselves to take it, even if it was slow.

Or if you really wanted to make a whole new power out of it, go for Glide.. an auto power that cannot be turned off, and just makes you fall at 50% slower, and take no damage when you touch ground. It could also provide the faster knockback recovery that Fly/Hover currently has, even while standing on the ground.

Cursed

01-24-2006, 09:14 AM

Adding my vote to an increase in the flight pool - at least a little bit in Hover. Maybe if they didn't increase the base speed (of either Hover or Fly) they could allow Sprint to tack it's speed boost (or a percentage thereof) onto either Hover or Fly's base speed?

EvilGeko

01-24-2006, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you wanted to justify people taking Hover, then give it a more significant Defense %. Like 7-12%. Then people would fall all over themselves to take it, even if it was slow.

Or if you really wanted to make a whole new power out of it, go for Glide.. an auto power that cannot be turned off, and just makes you fall at 50% slower, and take no damage when you touch ground. It could also provide the faster knockback recovery that Fly/Hover currently has, even while standing on the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW! That Glide Power is a really good idea. If you could get the physics of it right it would be a really fun power.

The defense buff though has no chance. The SR toggles only give 12.5%, there is no way a level 6 power pool will give that much (even 7%) to melee AND ranged. The defense lobby on these boards would go nuts.

siegeszug

01-24-2006, 09:23 AM

I've never understood the dev's arguements for Fly.

Safety is freedom from risk or danger. However, it is not the power that creates safety, it is the knowledge and skill of the player using the power. A person with Fly, flying at ground level, is not "safe". He will get pot shotted by every mob he comes across. It is the players knowledge that no mobs exist in the sky above that allows him his "safety". Therefore, safety is dependant upon knowledge and skill rather than the power itself. So a person who understands how Super Jump or Super Speed works can be just as "safe" as someone with Fly.

Vertical movement is the other advantage that Fly has. I have only come across vertical movement as a limitation once. When I was trying to get the Top Dog badge at Lv 14. That's it. As far as getting to my missions, getting to mobs, getting to exits, or getting to contacts, they have all existed at ground level.

The devs attempted to justify the use of verticle movement by creating zones where it is difficult to run or jump around in. What was the result? These zones are now rarely inhabited. Rather than increasing the value of fly, this mentality has decreased the desire to visit the zones in the first place.

Finally, the question of balance? This reasoning I never understood since the beginning. The travel powers were not suppose to have any combat value, that is why they added Supression in the first place, they didn't want them running during combat. So why bring balance into the equation at all? You do not level faster by taking Super Speed over Super Jump. The travel powers should be picked based upon flavor, does your character run fast or fly?

The second confusing thing about balance is the question, Why pick any other travel power if you have superior vertical movement and speed and safety? If you're going to look at it that technically, than you have to look at the power set as a whole. Increasing the speed of fly will not decrease the value of Hasten or Acrobatics or Teleport Friend. If you're going to try and use technical balance as part of your justification for things, than the power pools themselves have to be looked at in their entirety, and in my opinion Fly is the weakest total travel power pool out of them all.

DrObvious

01-24-2006, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the most important thing we should be getting across to the Devs is this:

This is a super hero game and aerial combat is a big part of the genre and should be part of the game. Its not. That alone should be worth your investigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

I just about feel out of my chair at the end of the sky raider ST. It was so interesting and unique to see all those sky raiders around the big oil rig thingy.

Red_Zero

01-24-2006, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
GROUP FLIGHT - End any scaling. No additional cost for each teammate.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few other things they should also do with Group Flight is either:

A) Change the centerpoint of the powers emination so that it trails and follows you allowing teammates and pets to stay more in towards the center of the effect instead of the edge when following.

OR...

B) Increase the speed at which pets and teammates (and NOT the user) follow allowing them to maneuver around or closer to the user when following as well as allowing them to catch up to the user instead of loosing distance.

As well as...

C) Install a NO ACCEPT GROUP FLY option for Players!! This will allow people who would really, really like to use this power with all its other draw backs without unintentionally greifing other players! This is an important QOL issue.

Red_Zero

01-24-2006, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Or if you really wanted to make a whole new power out of it, go for Glide.. an auto power that cannot be turned off, and just makes you fall at 50% slower, and take no damage when you touch ground. It could also provide the faster knockback recovery that Fly/Hover currently has, even while standing on the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like the idea of Glide as a power but I wouldn't want to replace Hover with it. Glide would be a good additional power to add to the pool, though I wonder at how it would act with the Rooting of powers, Rooting and Gliding would look really wonky.

Black_Scourge

01-24-2006, 09:47 AM

With the prevailance of -fly powers compared to -jump powers in pvp, flight pool really needs this boost.

Just a comparison between flight and jump for pvp and pvp zones:

Jump:
-CJ: cheap end, fast, Immob. prot.
-SJ: Reasonable end cost, fast, GREAT escape power, barely effected by slows
-Acrob: Hold and KB prot., cheap end

Fly:
-Hover: cheap end, Def buff, slow as hell, cant keep up with opponent with any other travel power, Horrible power to use as an escape
-Fly: High end cost, Still slower than all other travel powers, bad at catching or escaping
-GF: ok if your a MM, otherwise......blah

My point is this: For pvp, someone with Jump is in a much better posistion than a flyer currently. My toons with Jump can run both SJ AND SS without it being a problem with endurance. My SJer can catch 90% of my targets in a open PVP zone, and can escape from death if need be. My flyers are sitting ducks who cant seal the contract. Fly has less mezz prot, and more counterbalances. It needs a fix fast.

Double Hover speed at a minimum.

Cut end cost for flight in half bare minimum.

Chase_Arcanum

01-24-2006, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Ugh, excuse me. It's my turn on the soapbox. ;)

But the Flight Pool in general is in a pretty sad state. AS is a great attack, but Hover is too slow for any real effective level of use, and there are so many -Fly attacks in PVP that more than half the time you're going without a travel power at all. I don't really mess with Group Flight, but I'm sure it has its own pitfalls.

Castle, for all that is holy, please give a timeframe one when Flight will become viable as a travel power, or at least as viable as the other options out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that flight could use some performance loving, but let's remember that flight has alot of "intangibles" going for it as well: it's one of the few powers that allows for a broad view of the battlefield (from higher up), it can eliminate many foe's ability to direct melee attacks at you, it's one of the "safer" travel powers, and it absolutely avoids all obstacles. Then there are the indoor uses for flight..

Now, teleport comes close to this, with the obvious pain of moving faster than the enemies load, and running out of blue on a rooftop you thought was unoccupied when you ported there is a pain. have you ever tried to teleport up a floor indoors? Not fun, not much control.

Superspeed? As long as you're selective in your adventures... Some maps are nightmares... Even Jump- by far a solid power- has a tougher time in the Rogue Isles with all the overhead obstacles interfering...

Many of the requests here appear to be akin to the "i win" button. They want to fix ALL flight's troubles, when all that SHOULD happen is flight should be adjusted to be more comparable to the other travel powers, each of which has advantages and disadvantages.

---
And you might be finding that this will come in a number of ways- imagine if all -fly powers also gave temporary immobilization as well. IIRC, that's something that was added to the MA -fly attack. That way, it affects most (teleport's unaffected) travel powers, putting them closer to an even footing.

What if they did that to all -fly attacks?

Blueeyed

01-24-2006, 11:02 AM

The short version of this is that Flight needs to be viable. Compare Hover to Combat Jumping. Players with Combat Jumping will leave the power on constantly, recieving protection to status effects, some defense, and a movement buff, in all circumstances. That's not the case for Hover. Pre-SOs, you don't turn it on unless you're hoversniping. Post-SOs, you *might* be able to stand slowly edging toward the enemy. Might not. Still takes three slots just to do that.

We paid for vertical movement by giving up a power. That's a big cost in this post-ED world - I coulda bought a great pulling tool, an attack that beats the first 4 from Claws primary, or Hasten. We shouldn't have to give up a further two slots just to bring a power up to par.

I understand that Hover can't be a travel power. It comes at level 6, it shouldn't be as powerful as a seperate tier. But, just by as much of a definition, it shouldn't be a situational power.

Hover's starting value, 4.2 feet/s, is far too slow to be viable. Even Mental Blast moves faster than that, nevermind a hero sprinting along at 31.5 feet/s.

But we understand that you don't want us going at Fly's base speed of 50 feet/s. That'd make Fly valueless. So, let's take a good portion below that, oh, 35 f/s - not as good as slotted Sprint or Hurdle, but still a decent speed - and take that to be the maximum we want. As another point on the bar, let's take base movement speed, 21 f/s, cut down a bit do 18 feet/sec (so people don't waste the first slot), and assume that's what you want base hover to be at - there shouldn't be a penalty for a power like this.

Dogface

01-24-2006, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]

SJ is the most flexible and cheapest travel power. Thus it is selected at a rate that FAR outstrips its presence in the comics.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time I do not select SJ is when I'm playing a "concept" character, and even then I consider figuring out how SJ could fit the concept. That's how much better SJ is than all other movement powers.

BurningChick

01-24-2006, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you wanted to justify people taking Hover, then give it a more significant Defense %. Like 7-12%. Then people would fall all over themselves to take it, even if it was slow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The devs are really, really keen on powers that keep mobs (or toons) out of melee range. Why? Because there's a ghetto damage debuff, 20 or 30%, when mobs switch from melee attacks to ranged. Hover is the only "travel" power that can, in many situations, guarantee that a toon can stay out of melee.

There are, of course, caveats. Hovering above combat isn't always appropriate due to certain maps or teaming situations. Floating above combat, for instance, removes the user from many heals and buffs.

Anyways, just looking at the raw numbers, and assuming you're not facing snipers or mobs with ranged mezzes, the damage reduction from hovering out of melee is superior, in and of itself, than having the power give 7% def. Keeping out of melee is THE advantage hover has over CJ or sprint. Hovering requires no managing of position to stay out of melee; CJ and sprint do.

I'm not saying the speed numbers for the flight pool are right, or that the distance = defense thing is good, but hover does have its advantages.

Just something to chew on: until a few weeks after I5 went live, Force Bubble (ninth tier FF power) was the most expensive toggle in the game. On its own, with 1 redux slotted and no stamina, it could drain a bubbler's endurance in about 30 seconds. Until recently, its only effect was to keep non-resistant mobs out of melee. No debuffs, mezzes, buffs, or KB. All it did was gently shove mobs out of melee. That's how good the devs figure keeping mobs out of melee is. They've backed off on the position more recently in toning down the end cost of some keep-away powers, but that's the mindset behind hover.

Quickie edit: hover also minimizes KB and ragdoll. When hit with KB while hovering, you flip and don't get blown half-way across the map.

Eric_Cogswell

01-24-2006, 11:55 AM

Flight pool is just plain broken....sadly I'm a die hard flyer on my main.

Air Superiority is the one power I don't want from it, and the only one that from all reports is fine. For my money, I think all the travel pool attacks should have some motion to them---Ie, click air sup and you zooom to your target and smash him. Jump kick should be a wire-fu long distance jump kick. Flurry should run up and flurry, possibly even circling the target. But I digress, they seem Ok for what they are now.

Hover----is a joke. A bad one at that. It should not be a travel power, sure. But it also should not be a self-inflicted de-buff either. It's base should be equal to unenhanced movement, just with the ability to fly added in. For all I care, don't allow it to accept flight enhancements at all, if it must remain that slow to have balance, but I should not have to slot to avoid losing normal ground speed. It's end cost does seem resonable.

Flight----- is stupid. At 46, which is at or near it's speed cap, I have it with 2 End, 3 fly. 5 Slots grants me flight which is slower and still more end intensive than my wife's Superjump at 23, which was completly unslotted when I first tested it after her free-spec. This is unacceptable and completly unbalanced. The air control of flight over jump does not justify having way more end cost, way less speed---and the kicker for me, when fly suppresses your basically immobilized, with jump you can still run at your full speed +sprint/Hurdle/Swift.

Group Fly---- is just poor design given the other flaws of flight. Here we have a power where we can at will inflict on our team a 20% accuracy penalty, the inability to use a small selection of powers starting with rest, and a movement speed debuff on anyone useing any travel power other than flight, since you can neither run nor jump while flying. I would like to see it changed to a click power that hit your team with a buff that grants a temporary power that the recipient can then use for a set time at will rather than simply being subjected to it---heck, make it 'grant flight' and leave it a single target buff. 99% of the problems involved with it go away. One change to pet AI to make them prefer flight to other movement abilities if it's available leaves it functoinality in place for masterminds.

Other travel balance changes:

Sprint should be changed to +spd rather than +run and +jump. It is unfair that Speeders and Jumpers can get this free, unsupressable boost to their mode of travel, but flyers not only are slowed below normal walking speed but lose this power too.

Fitness:Swift should also be changed to +speed. This eliminates the need for 2 fitness powers that do the same thing to 2 different travel powers, and includes the third in with it. What used to be hurdle could be called 20/20 Vision and be an Auto power that is +perception and +Range. This includes teleport in the innate boost catagory, but is deserving of a second power as this would also improve practically all ranged attacks with it, not to mention help see through stacked stealth. While I was tinkering, given the changes that ED wrought, I'd combine Health and Stamina into one power as well, but replacing the resist in health to End Drain resist---then you could 6 slot it for 3 of each. You could then add Discipline, Mag 3 or so Resist to Sleep, Hold, Stun and Confuse at either 14 or 20---probably 20. No one would say it's 'required' like stamina, but everyone but maybe the melee would want it. :) Alternatively, I could go for a self-rez here too.

PS: Glide. Great idea and actually fairly easy to put in. Just give it the same physics as the downward arc of Superjump... but slow down the rate of fall so as to get an actual gliding effect. I have no idea where to put it though, Perhaps a future Gadget Pool, or a new Flight based power pool "jetpack", as one of the beginning powers, With it's other powers being the attack 'Strafe' (Almost single-file Cone, 20 yard range machine gun attack), the Travel power being "Jet Boost" (The 'jump' portion of Superjump, but usable in mid air as well to gain altitude, requiring Glide to have air control.) the final power could be "Loan Jetpack" to grant the pack to others for flight. So ultimatly what you get is a long distance controlled fall with boosts of altitude at will, and that classic double line of machine gun fire seen in millions of movies, including Batman---though he somehow missed the Joker with it. Oh, and spare packs to give your friends.

Powerhelm

01-24-2006, 12:27 PM

On my SJ toon I jump around to get to skyscraper roofs so that I can roof-to-roof jump while in higher level zones, typically less dangerous on rooftops...typically...

[ QUOTE ]
The devs attempted to justify the use of verticle movement by creating zones where it is difficult to run or jump around in. What was the result? These zones are now rarely inhabited. Rather than increasing the value of fly, this mentality has decreased the desire to visit the zones in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always had fly. Those zones just suck :-p Faultline has nothing to do other than a couple missions and I don't think more than maybe one or two in all honesty. And TV only has a handful of missions aside from running in there for the respec trial.

[ QUOTE ]
I really like the idea of Glide as a power but I wouldn't want to replace Hover with it. Glide would be a good additional power to add to the pool, though I wonder at how it would act with the Rooting of powers, Rooting and Gliding would look really wonky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not an inherent power you get at say 30 or 40?

You go talk to someone and can choose (only once and permanently?) to get Glide (as described above) or a boost to jump height that can't be enhanced therefore not replacing hurdle for SSers, or maybe a similar safe landing power for each...

flash cuold spin fast an create a tornado and land couldn't he?

I don't see why an extra 50 ft would hurt a guy who can leap 100ft into the air and travela half mile per leap yet stepping off the top of a building hurts him...

And couldn't you TP at the last instance before hitting the ground and negate the falling speed you had built up?

Just trying to think of ways to do this.

Lycantropus

01-24-2006, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As Monument says, my main is a stone tank who used to heavily slot swift so he could move at acceptable speed in granite armor (which slows you and doesn't stack with any other movement enhancing powers including sprint for the uninitiated).

[/ QUOTE ]By acceptable, he means slower than a sprinting toon, but still capable of feeling like you're getting somewhere. ;)

Rooted and Granite together are monstrously slow. a 6 slotted Swift was the only recourse unless you wanted Teleport for in-map movent (not travel, just plain ol' movement!)

Currently, against the grain of concept for him, my Stone now has TP and I got him Granite Armor. Neither of those fit him, as I wanted him to be a SJer and not look like a member of the Devouring Earth.

I don't play him much... While I find his new build very effective in the I-5/ED environment, it's not "fun" for me. He's just not what I wanted him to be. At his level I'm not going to delete him, that would be a waste. He is, however, shelved indefintely at this point. :(

_Synchrotron_

01-24-2006, 12:47 PM

Since fly gets faster as you level, any chance of boosting it's initial speed, even if the "top end" can't be upped? By the time you're level 40ish, Fly isn't nearly as pokey as it starts out to be.

I do think that fly should be able to hit it's in-game limit with three SOs, even post-ED.

The_Chad

01-24-2006, 01:05 PM

I still want new flight animation. I hate flying with both arms at the side.

Come on, one arm out in front. Two arms out in front. There are several different ways to fly, not that same generic way. Please give us random flight animations.

Lycantropus

01-24-2006, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, better zone design in the future doesn't really help the dozens of zones that already exist. I don't see reworking all the zones just to un-gimp that aspect of SS

[/ QUOTE ]I think that's a serious design flaw in SS, IMHO. I would imagine, by definition, a "travel" power should enable you, by itself, the ability to travel almost any zone. Just about anyone I know that has Speed, gets Jump as well. The same thing applies to Teleport with Hover.

An easy fix is available for both of those problems though. I've heard a good one for Super Speed right on these forums. I forget who originally suggested it, but allow for the ability for speedsters to run up vertical surfaces. Stopping of course would negate that vertical movement. This allows a SS toon to get through faultline and other such areas without being penalized for picking it as a concept; plus it would be fun and neat to watch ;)

As for Teleport, I would like to see it have an "indefinite" hover that would be negated by making an attack, or pressing any of the movement keys. That would still make getting Hover with it still desireable, but not nescesary. As it stands, with the two second hover, the slightest lag hiccup you're kissing pavement. Not only that but conversing while in transit to a location requires that you find a place to "land" before responding (not game breaking, but annoying).

Thoughts?

lykka

01-24-2006, 02:27 PM

i kind of agree. but my take on it should be that all travel powers getting from point a to b should be the same speed and cost the same amount of end to get there. the differences should be tactical.

the problem we have is that the travel powers are not balanced at all.

flight: pros: excellent pvp skill for not getting hit by melee types; least irritating to use travel power can be used on auto-pilot.
Cons: super high end cost, many skills that can negate fly, fly is the only travel power that can be negated. there is no way to stop jumpers/porters/speedsters in pvp, have to stop to attack and there is a long delay before you can fly again(this does not happen with the other travel powers btw)

i would like to see fly brought in line with the other travel powers either by making it available at level 6 with no pre-requisite and keeping all the same negatives to it's usage or bringing it inline with the other travel powers by removing all or most of the negatives.

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I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.

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The real issue in this question is balance. While logistically speaking yes you should be able to get from point A to point B faster when moving in a straight line. However, the balance supposedly comes from flight's safety (I'm not advocating what the devs have done in fact I find it just as deplorable as you, I'm just trying to reasonably explain it.) The risk when taking off from point A using SJ is in the fact that you inevitably must land, occasionally in a group of mobs. Whereas, using flight all mobs (save the high flying longbow versions of sky skiffs etc.,) are avoidable lowering the amount of risk you have. If flight were faster that SJ, SS, or TP, than what would be the point of anyone taking any of the other travel powers if they can get from point A to point B not only faster with flight, but also much, much more safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having extensively used both powers, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Super Jump is MUCH safer than Fly unless you Fly at or near the ceiling. Fly is so slow that you can't always get away if you use it to escape. Whereas I've jumped right into a group of ten purple mobs and been 150 yds. away before they can react.

SJ is the most flexible and cheapest travel power. Thus it is selected at a rate that FAR outstrips its presence in the comics.

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Arcanaville

01-24-2006, 02:38 PM

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Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?

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Advantage? I'm not sure you'd call it an advantage, but if you're something without mez protection, say a blaster, and you're dueling a mezzing boss, there is a significant advantage to melee-jousting; landing your own heavy-duty hits and making sure that if you're mezzed, you're a half a mile away when the mez kicks in.

Its an advantage, although frankly I always considered it a proper advantage: using tactics to manage your weaknesses in a tough situation. And suppression doesn't really negate the usefulness of jousting in this fashion either, although it does slow it down.

*Without* suppression, though, one thing you could always do if you were really good was to ensure your foe always used ranged attacks while you were using melee attacks (again, especially if you were a blaster) by timing your melee runs to happen essentially right as they were firing a ranged shot, guaranteeing that they couldn't switch to melee on you. Its questionable if this was game-breaking, though, since it was only "risk-free" if you were really good at it, and if you judge on that basis, there's a lot of things that are risk-free (and being shot at by ranged shots is not "risk-free" for blasters or anyone else really).

Pippy

01-24-2006, 02:42 PM

FWIW, I PM-ed Statesman about this back in I4 and he specifically said that suppression was not to prevent jousting. It was "to prevent PvE issues." What issues those were other than jousting, he didn't say, but apparently, jousting wasn't one of them.

Res_Ipsa

01-24-2006, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*Without* suppression, though, one thing you could always do if you were really good was to ensure your foe always used ranged attacks while you were using melee attacks (again, especially if you were a blaster) by timing your melee runs to happen essentially right as they were firing a ranged shot, guaranteeing that they couldn't switch to melee on you. Its questionable if this was game-breaking, though, since it was only "risk-free" if you were really good at it, and if you judge on that basis, there's a lot of things that are risk-free (and being shot at by ranged shots is not "risk-free" for blasters or anyone else really).

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What kills me about this is that there's a long tradition of comic book characters using exactly this kind of tactic to hand down some beat down. Hell, in Champions, which Statesman allegedly plays and drew much inspiration from, Move By and Move Through maneuvers are the bread and butter moves of speedsters and bricks, respectively.

It's really regrettable that the developers have made a risk/reward analysis their be-all-end-all of game balance, because in that analysis creative methods of reducing one's exposure to risk become "exploits".

Arcanaville

01-24-2006, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I PM-ed Statesman about this back in I4 and he specifically said that suppression was not to prevent jousting. It was "to prevent PvE issues." What issues those were other than jousting, he didn't say, but apparently, jousting wasn't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are things related to "jousting" that I combine together, because they are conceptually related, even though not everyone considers them all to be true jousting. Most people only consider it jousting if it involves a high speed approach that triggers a melee attack. But performing the same maneuver with a short range blast like power burst is basically in the same category.

Non-jousting things that travel suppression impair are things like the superjump/snipe issue, where you could begin moving after the snipe interrupt period, but *before* it fired, and so be far out of range of the target when the snipe actually went off, in effect getting a free shot.

Captain Fabulous

01-24-2006, 06:21 PM

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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in here. I too used to have 5 or 6 slotted hover on a few toons pre ED, not to replace a travel power (god NO), but basically to be in the air at all times during missions. Part of this desire is strategic, part conceptual design.

In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.

And there are a lot of powers like this. Was the elimination of perma hasten by design, or consequence? PH was a staple of so many toons since beta, and ED just obliterates that. It was said many times before there was nothing inherently wrong with perma hasten because even though you attacked more often, you used more endurance, and that was the tradeoff. Is this no longer the current thinking by the devs? That perma anything is bad?

And what about powers whose recharge times were lengthened so they could not be made perma back in the pre-ED and pre-HO nerf days? Does Unstoppable still need to have a 16 minute recharge?

And fly and teleport are other examples. Fly speed can't be capped any longer, and teleport just got cut in half. You can't possibly think that fly was too fast before and needed a nerf. And what is there possibly to gain by nerfing the hell outta teleport? So now instead of being at 1/2 endurance traveling to the next mish, I'm completely out. Is this necessary?

My overall feelings about ED are mixed, and I don't necessarily think it's a horrible thing. But I do think many powers need to be re-examined and adjusted with ED in mind.

BellaStrega

01-24-2006, 07:35 PM

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You could use superspeed to reduce the number of attacks you took, by breaking line of sight and otherwise kiting. You would still take attacks, but you could survive a bit longer if you were able to control the encounter.

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Strangely enough these are all things that would naturally occur to you if you actual could run at super speeds!

*smacks forehead*

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I know. I don't think it was really that uber.

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Apparently, the ability to control the encounter was too uber.

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From the forums I got the impression that with certain mobs you could trick the AI to swap between melee or range attacks or that with some mobs once they went to melee attacks they never went back to ranged.

I never once heard of a problem with travel powers, always with mob AI. So where did they apply the "fix" ?

I still believe travel suppression is the single biggest genre-breaking thing in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never found an encounter where I could completely negate risk by using superspeed to kite. I have found encounters where I could completely negate risk by running backwards (fighting a Murk Eidolon on the streets of Galaxy with a ranged character). However, that only required sprint. In another instance, I managed to keep a Luminous Eidolon focused on melee, so it only used brawl which pretty much negated risk in that case too.

But neither required travel powers, or even precursors to travel powers.

I really don't like suppression.

StratoNexus

01-24-2006, 07:38 PM

This may be one of my favorite topics on the forums. Some history from my perspective:

> See this thread from 1 year ago < (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2050287&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
geko's comment was amusing, considering the large number of people who took SS because it was so fast and Hasten was the prereq. geko's comment is as follows, for those who do not feel like clicking the link:

[ QUOTE ]
No matter how you slice it, flying is ultimately safer than super speed, and offer an undeniable vertical advantage over super speed (or in this case, 4 other speed powers). If flyspeed had the same max as runspeed, why would anyone ever take superspeed?

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After the Arena came out, one of my observations > From this post < (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=2577302&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main=248953 5&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=110949&daterange= 1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=9&oldertype=m&bod yprev=#Post2577302) which was based on geko's comment:
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Do you believe in Superspeed's strengths now? Can Fly please be made faster in PvE at least? Everybody has SS of course, because everyone has Hasten (slight exaggeration, but only slight). Fortunately not everyone is good at using it to its fullest devestating effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then came suppression (which actually caused me to stop playing for 2 months), where the developers reasoned that fly was unfairly disadvantaged compared to the other travel powers. My comments on that are > located here. < (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=2759298&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main=275282 2&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=110949&daterange= 1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=8&oldertype=m&bod yprev=#Post2759298)
The most relevant quote from that post is:
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I also must wonder what changed between now and 3 months ago. Then Fly was beloved and you felt the other powers needed advantages in order to make people take them ; Now you think there is an inherent unfairness that makes Fly weaker, and for some baffling reason you think it has to do with Fly's Acc penalty instead of how butt slow it is?

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I used to have my hover 4 slotted on my fire/fire blaster and was planning to six slot it. The loss in speed for hover makes me sad.

Off-topic, I also found this (now) terrifying post I made in the suppresion thread when I was discussing ways one could minimize risk that IMO were better than jousting:
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Is pulling bad and on the chopping block? Are tanks defenses bad and on the chopping block? Is stealth bad and on the chopping block? These are just a few other ways you can defeat mobs with extremely low risk.

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At least we still have pulling.

Arcanaville

01-24-2006, 09:17 PM

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At least we still have pulling.

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That's only because 99.99% of all players don't know how to do it right.

From level 2 to level 50, the words that still cause me to grit my teeth are "I'll pull" which means "I'll shoot at something and then wait for it to shoot back or possibly bring all of his friends over here" and everyone else in the team interprets this as "good, we'll stand right next to you and watch."

detroitfrost

01-24-2006, 10:10 PM

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At least we still have pulling.

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That's only because 99.99% of all players don't know how to do it right.

From level 2 to level 50, the words that still cause me to grit my teeth are "I'll pull" which means "I'll shoot at something and then wait for it to shoot back or possibly bring all of his friends over here" and everyone else in the team interprets this as "good, we'll stand right next to you and watch."

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omg that is by far the most true thing I've ever heard.

and oh yeh crank up the speed on flight for God's sakes, if you are going to nerf something, buff it in a different area to balance it!

Biostem

01-24-2006, 10:22 PM

What if you could "throttle" your flight speed? Like, turnign on fly and tapping forward gives you a slow hover, whereas pressing and holding forward accelerates you. The faster you go, the more end you burn. While your standing still or just piddling along, you use little end. That'd give an advantage over longer distances, etc.

Another thign I'd like to see implemented is somethign I loved in Guild Wars; if you stood around doing nothing, you started to regen health and end. As soon as you attacked, use an ability, or got attacked, the regeneration went away. Thus, if you stand still for a few seconds after a battle, you're back to full.

I would defintiely welcome some -jump, -tp, -SS powers as well.

greenlifechild

01-25-2006, 12:22 AM

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What if you could "throttle" your flight speed? Like, turnign on fly and tapping forward gives you a slow hover, whereas pressing and holding forward accelerates you. The faster you go, the more end you burn. While your standing still or just piddling along, you use little end. That'd give an advantage over longer distances, etc.

Another thign I'd like to see implemented is somethign I loved in Guild Wars; if you stood around doing nothing, you started to regen health and end. As soon as you attacked, use an ability, or got attacked, the regeneration went away. Thus, if you stand still for a few seconds after a battle, you're back to full.

I would defintiely welcome some -jump, -tp, -SS powers as well.

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There are actually quite a few -jump and -speed powers in the game. Anything that's -fly will ground your jumping too. At least everything I've ever seen. I've seen lots of slows too. From quicksand in the Hollows on. There isn't anything that's -tp as far as I know, but that's one of the few advantages of the power. You rip a hole in spacetime and travel from point A to point B. What can the average villain do to stop you?

Baneful

01-25-2006, 04:36 AM

Even if Hover went up FASTER then it went forward...kind of how CJ makes you jump UP but not Forward, and how Hurdle dose UP OR FORWARD and when you use them together you get UP UP or UP FORWARD...if that makes sense...or make Hurdle so it Boosts Jump AND flight Speed...so if you wanted to Speed up all your flight and hover Base speed this would do it...

Id also like to see a tweak that when your using fly and you Suppression Activates that you fly at YOUR hover speed, not the BASE hover speed...since any one with SS gets to go at there Sprint + swift speed... I think this would only be "balanced"

Narcissus

01-25-2006, 05:19 AM

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Anything that's -fly will ground your jumping too. At least everything I've ever seen.

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Then you've never seen Snowstorm.

HacknSlash

01-25-2006, 08:28 AM

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In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.

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Why not switch from hover to FLY instead of run?

Gangrene

01-25-2006, 09:59 AM

Was there any herding issue that caused Travel Suppression to be patched in? For the life of me, I can't see why Travel Suppression was even needed at all.

Jagged

01-25-2006, 10:03 AM

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I think the most important thing we should be getting across to the Devs is this:

This is a super hero game and aerial combat is a big part of the genre and should be part of the game. Its not. That alone should be worth your investigation.

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Something like this perhaps ? (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/catwhoorg/b1aeb859.jpg)

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Nice picture but not what I was thinking of, no.

The only really decent aerial combat I've ever had in this game was against some CoT in Fault Line when my party got a bit separated. That was cool.

Ultra_Violence

01-25-2006, 11:36 AM

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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

At least reduce Flight's END cost or relate it's END cost to whether you are attacking. High END if you are attacking, Low END if just traveling. That way you can take and use Flight without being almost forced to take Stamina to stay in the air for long.

I would still like to see a "Swoop" type attack that turns altitute into damage in a one time landing from flight attack. This is an attack you see so often in comics I love to see a character fly down knocking back enemies in the area while landing. Perhaps the Avians?

Captain Fabulous

01-25-2006, 11:55 AM

Arcanaville

01-25-2006, 03:08 PM

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What if you could "throttle" your flight speed?

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Putting a "speed slider" in for flight was the very first idea I ever suggested on the forums; minutes later it became the very first suggestion that I was told was old news. I still think its a good idea.

QuiJon

01-26-2006, 03:05 AM

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Was there any herding issue that caused Travel Suppression to be patched in? For the life of me, I can't see why Travel Suppression was even needed at all.

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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting. basicly people would use SJ and SS, since they inherently made you travel faster, would basicly cue attacks, mostly melee, from outside of range of a enemy, then run or jump into range and back out. As you can probably attest to for that split second your in range your attack starts to fire. Just like a blaster shooting at someone running around a corner and hitting them, said melee attack would still go off and hit a target even though you were 40 yrds away from them again.

It worked in PVE against AI, and back then the only concern was the flight pool. So to prevent hover blasting the devs programed flight with a big, like 50 percent -accuracy. Making fliers that wanted to stay airborne have to bind flight and hover to hot keys and switch to hover quickly to attack and then back to flight to move.

I think the real issue became evident in PVP. The devs say no, but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened. So go figure. But when fighting people in the arena, and a player having to react quickly get a target etc, a enemy running in and outta his view so quickly became much more a issue, so they first added a -acc to all travels like flight had. Everyone freaked out. Fliers had been doing the toggling backand forth forever, but jumpers and SSers i guess couldnt handle it. So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me. Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing. Old habits die hard i guess.

VivianSteel

01-26-2006, 03:43 AM

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Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing.

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Well, hover does take considerably less end.

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but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened.

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For a year it wasn't complained about, then the arenas opened. It was always an issue, it just wasn't a big enough of one to devote resources to. Arenas came around and it became a big enough issue to pay attention to. When the solution for PvP was implemented, there was no reason not to implement it for PvE as well, since the same situation existed in both places, and it didn't require any extra resources.

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So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me.

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I agree. An insurmountable accuracy penalty would be MUCH better than restricted movement in a power who's sole purpose is movement.

Biostem

01-26-2006, 04:15 AM

I don't understand something, and maybe I'm just naive, but why not make initiating an attack stop you dead in your tracks where you first initiated the attack? Make the character lose all momentum, speed, etc. I run at an enemy with an attack queued - as soon as I'm in range, blam!, I'm stopped right there...

Make the movement powers have acceleration and decceleration values so it's not just instant-away...

BellaStrega

01-26-2006, 04:44 AM

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I don't understand something, and maybe I'm just naive, but why not make initiating an attack stop you dead in your tracks where you first initiated the attack? Make the character lose all momentum, speed, etc. I run at an enemy with an attack queued - as soon as I'm in range, blam!, I'm stopped right there...

Make the movement powers have acceleration and decceleration values so it's not just instant-away...

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I believe it has to do with latency. The attack triggers as soon as you're in range, and your animation goes off when the attack triggers. However, by then you're a good distance from the target.

Suppression hasn't really stopped it, just slowed it down.

Ohms__NA

01-26-2006, 05:00 AM

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In any case, the current 3 slotted hover isn't fast enough to keep up with people on the ground who have swift + sprint. So instead of spending the entire mission in hover, I have to run, then turn it on in battle, then turn it off and run, etc. Not only a pain, but certainly not in the spirit of my toon.

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Why not switch from hover to FLY instead of run?

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Because, unlike the old -Acc thing Fly had, you cannot toggle around suppression. Before, if you were flying and fired off attacks, you missed like mad. The solution was to switch between Fly and Hover. A bit of a pain, but no real sweat. Now, whether you're flying, hovering, or standing on the ground, and fire off an attack suppression kicks in salting your tail. There's no way around it. Well there is. Not using the damned power anymore.

Shame too. I loved Fly. After I picked it up the first time I spent hours just barnstorming around the city. Now it's a piece of [censored]. Boy, I sure am glad the devs haven't (repeatedly) [censored]ed with PvE when they decided to shove PvP into this game.

Pilcrow

01-26-2006, 07:25 AM

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Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ideas&Number=4603085&page= 3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) was a pretty darn good idea.

Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.

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I think this is the best idea for fixing hover.

If that doesn't seem reasonable, how 'bout this: change SWIFT so it boosts both run and fly speed, then let us slot it for +fly speed, too. That way by slotting both swift and hover, we can get a decent flight speed.

(Wouldn't be bad to give hurdle +TP dist and have it take range enhancers under the same scheme).

QuinnBlackwatch

01-26-2006, 07:40 AM

I agree with what pill said.

All in all, I think that hover should offer -good- combat mobility. that means that it should be at least as good as just running when not slotted ( at least!) and should be able to exceed sprint with a few slots.

having to turn off hover just to move from mob to mob without excruciating slow crawling would make the power less unpleasant.

QuiJon

01-26-2006, 08:38 AM

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Hell i still outta force of habit find myself toggling to hover to attack though it really does nothing.

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Well, hover does take considerably less end.

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but for a year it wasnt an issue until the arenas opened.

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For a year it wasn't complained about, then the arenas opened. It was always an issue, it just wasn't a big enough of one to devote resources to. Arenas came around and it became a big enough issue to pay attention to. When the solution for PvP was implemented, there was no reason not to implement it for PvE as well, since the same situation existed in both places, and it didn't require any extra resources.

[ QUOTE ]
So they did the "since you all hate it so much" kinda thing, and came up with supression that is like 1000 times worse to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. An insurmountable accuracy penalty would be MUCH better than restricted movement in a power who's sole purpose is movement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure there was a reason, how about they didnt care if we did it in PVE but when PVP was introduced people complaining got te travel powers nerfed. The devs promised nothing would ever be changed for PVP alone, but comeone how many times do we have to hear working as intended before we say BS!

Though the power worked better in PVP, the fact is once you established agro on a group in PVE the computer was able to launch attacks at you because it could target you faster then a human and do the same thing, que attacks the instant you got in range. Humans fighting Humans the powers moved to quickly for the split second someone was on your screen to do that, hence why it became a larger, more important issue in PVP, and why a power was altered in PVE for sole reasons of PVP usefulness.

Devs knew that travel powers could be used in combat, their not stupid. And most are gamers, so seeing kiting, bunny hopping etc, in other games would not have been a surprise to them. It simply wasnt a big enough issue in pve to care about. But even so, notice they [censored] up fly from the get go with a acc modifier, so they were aware of the use of travels as combat powers. To then a year later say "was never intended" is BS. Its more like "we didnt think far enough ahead to pvp to realize this would be a tactic" and of course players pay the price.

But seriously getting back on thread topic, Fly is now way below the other travels, sure i like it due to its Heroish feeling, but its utility is way off. It needs to be faster, take less resources, and over all just be a cool power to have. What they really need to do is cap out all the travel powers. Teleport should kick [censored] on all for speed due to the type of power it is, and that it really has no combat bonus accept running away. Then the other three should all be tested. Through cities and open areas, strait line and obsticles. Then take the average times of all the start to finishes, and make all the speed equal. Or close to it, i know flight will never hit 88 mph like SS can, but a 28MPH difference for being able to strait line it is obscene. Everyone say cause it safer? well SS has stealth in it also, i have never been shot at when using SS and i kept moving past a mob, ever. Its perfectly safe to us, so is jumping, so lets get by that, and get some balance to them. FLight should in all liklihood hit around 70MPH to be considered as usefull speed wise as the other two powers. Jumping might also need slighter boost.

Pippy

01-26-2006, 08:46 AM

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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. From PMs:

Me:

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1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?

3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?

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Statesman:

[ QUOTE ]
1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.

3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Omega_Bolt

01-26-2006, 09:25 AM

Here's a wacky idea . . .

What if the powers that be (that would be the devs) added another timer to flight, let's say 8 seconds, and when that timer expires, you can go "super-sonic" (i.e., above the cap).

Let's say you take off from the train station in IP to head for Lusca, who's usually inking the waters by the Brickstown gate. That's a long flight, about a mile or so. At 60 mph, that would take a full minute, right? Let's say you take off, and for a few seconds (5-10sec), you fly at "normal" (i.e., current) flight speed. This keeps people from using it as an escape tool (much like it is now). After a period of time, a speed boost option kicks in and flight speed is doubled (for the sake of argument). Now that 60 second flight to Lusca only takes about 35 seconds. A two-minute jaunt across Crey's Folly only takes 65 seconds, and so on.

Here are some ideas to balance/unexploit the idea:
a. increase the endurance drain while at high-speed
b. use the SPRINT toggle (instead of/in addition to a timer to make high-speed flight (and its endurance penalty) optional
c. require SUPER SPEED as a power, and use it as the toggle described in (b) above.
d. only allow the speed boost kick in above a certain altitude

The idea is to give fliers a travel power that will get them from mission to mission in a more reasonable length of time.
I'm so sick of arriving at missions that are halfway completed by the time I get there. Okay, that's a bit of an hyperbole, but you get the idea.

Flying is the coolest travel power. You get to see the city from all angles. You get to really check out the giant statues. You don't get stuck in Grendel Gulch. I am not out to cheat the system. I rarely engage in PvP, so it's not about getting an edge in Siren's Call or the arena. I'm hoping I've addressed those possibilities in my proposal.

Does this suggestion make sense to anyone else? Is it worthy of a Dev response?? BTW, thanks for posting in here, Castle!

aqshy2004

01-26-2006, 09:25 AM

Well they sure could eliminate the issue of hover beign such a crappy power in PvP! :mad:

Pippy

01-26-2006, 09:30 AM

That's hardly limited to PvP...

Ultra_Violence

01-26-2006, 10:04 AM

Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.

Yes Devs didn't do away with Jousting on day 1 but they didn't do away with hearding on day 1 either. That doesn't mean they approved of that either. Sometimes they step on things very quickly sometimes very deliberately. How they decide which is only known to them.

Saying that they are lieing about why they put in suppression isn't likely to get they to change their minds is it?

Personally I don't see the big problem with supression. It ends so fast I barely notice it even when I am badge hunting greys.

I do see the problem with END usage on Fly and Teleport now that Stamina has been reduced via ED. Attacks were reduced in END usage but these powers also needed to have the same reduction to keep them in line. (or if they were reduced it certainly wasn't enough)

As far as changing the enhancement schedules for Fly and Hover that sounds like a plan to me. I think there are a number of Powers that could use that sort of love though. Some of the PP defensive powers could use the same thing.

Jagged

01-26-2006, 10:05 AM

Jagged

01-26-2006, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. I am letting the Devs know that I think its an extremely bad game mechanic and they need to come up with something better.

And for the record "X isn't going away - deal with it" has been said about many things (sometimes even by the Devs) that have subsequently gone away or happened.

Things like:

Unyielding Stance

Melee Attacks working on running mobs

Stand alone character generator lol

There are others too, I am sure.

Pippy

01-26-2006, 10:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Saying that they are lieing about why they put in suppression isn't likely to get they to change their minds is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nowhere do I accuse Statesman of being a liar. I think he was vague, and I think the way he and the rest of his crew handled the Travel Power Suppression issue demonstrated amazingly -- and uncharacteristically -- poor communication skills. And I think suppression is very nearly a game-breakingly bad mechanic.

But I don't think that Statesman was being deliberately dishonest. And even if I did, it's not an accusation I would make without some evidence.

I just bring this up because the conventional wisdom on the forums is that suppression was implemented to deal with jousting... inasmuch as you imply it right here:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes Devs didn't do away with Jousting on day 1 but they didn't do away with hearding on day 1 either. That doesn't mean they approved of that either.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is simply that dealing with jousting was apparently not the developers' intent.

[ QUOTE ]
Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And my discontent with suppression isn't going away either. And all that anyone else has to do to "deal with" that is read occasional posts on the issue, which seems to be much less inconvenient then the actual mechanic itself.

Ohms__NA

01-26-2006, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman:

[ QUOTE ]
1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm, huh? Issues in PvE? What the hell issues were caused by being able to walk and chew gum at the same time in PvE?

Circuit_Breaker_NA

01-26-2006, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would it kill anybody to let swift enhance hover speed, too?

And can we please figure out a way to let teleport get better over levels? flight speeds up, super-jump speeds up, super-speed speeds up... Teleport animates at the same speed, goes the same range, and costs the same for a level 14 as it does for a level 50. Scaling animation time isn't going to happen, but can we please get natural range increases or an endurance discount?

Eric_Cogswell

01-26-2006, 04:56 PM

Well, My idea to better equalize all the travel powers went thus:

1. Change Sprint to +spd instead of specifically +run and +jump.

2. Change Swift to +Spd.

3. Change Hurdle to Perfect Vision: +perception, +range

4. Increase Hover to base walking speed---seriously, this should not be a self infliced debuff.

Thus all travel powers have the same amount of advantages. Teleport is worthy of it's own fitness power because to do it you also have to increase every other ranged power with it.

As an aside, I'd also change health to be Health+Stamina with endurance drain resist. The final fitness power could be a self rez or Discipline: Mag 3ish resist vs sleep, hold, stun, confuse.

TheArtifex

01-26-2006, 05:07 PM

I'd really like to see the base movement speed for Hover get a boost, about 20-25%.

Also, it would be good if movement speed buff powers like Swift affected Fly speed; they already affect Hover speed. That, the boost to Hover base speed and a bump to the Fly speed cap and all would be good for the pool.

BellaStrega

01-26-2006, 06:30 PM

totalpackage

01-26-2006, 10:20 PM

I'd be happy if hover was as fast as normal walking speed. That is comparable to the unenhanced speed on CJ.

Hover is just painfully slow to use in combat, especially for a melee character. The Ranged ATs can somewhat make due with the slowness depending on their specific mix on short and long range powers, but it just kills a melee-centric toon.

You spend the entire fight just trying to get into range. Isn't using it in combat the entire point of hover?

Pippy

01-26-2006, 10:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What reasons in PVE? What is travel power suppression intended to prevent?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I knew. I'd PM States to ask him, but I'm worried that all it would do at this stage is get me on his ignore list.

Fried_Jedi

01-26-2006, 11:24 PM

I was playing my level 19 empathy defender (with fly, 3 slotted all end redux) the other day, and was OUTRUN by a level 13 toon with nothing but sprint. I don't even think he had swift at that point, though I may be wrong about that.

Either way, having level 19 with a travel power, being outrun by a level 13 without, is completely rediculous. I haven't tested it, but it seems to me that this would mean that 3 slot swift +3 slot sprint would likely be faster than fly as a viable travel power (except for the lack of verical movement) AND save you 2 power choice options.

I really hope the devs do something about flight speeds, as it is apparent from the numerous posts that it is more than a couple of people that think there is an issue involved.

QuiJon

01-27-2006, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. From PMs:

Me:

[ QUOTE ]
1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?

3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman:

[ QUOTE ]
1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.

3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman is lying to you in private messages then.

According to a post called "patch not explanations" posted 4-28-05 statesman had this to say about the initial planned change to add the -acc to speed and jumping:
[ QUOTE ]
o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE

There was an inherent unfairness with the Travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.

Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.

Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess its not outrightly lying since the explanation does infact deal with PVE issues. Issues they didnt care less about UNTIL the arenas hit the test server. I have no idea when you started playing the game. but i think many that played during that time frame will remember that at that time, the Devs took alot of heat for changes that resulted in PVP nerfs or buffs, that bled over to PVE also. Almost every explanation at the time was a "never intended" kinda of explanation, and im sorry as quickly as they through on the -acc and supression when people hated the -acc, this is something that could have been fixed at ANY time in the previous year of release. I dont find it to be chance that it was not until PVPs introduction it became an issue.

I also dont know your gaming experience, but many FPS games end up dealing with issues or Kiting, bunny hopping etc after release due to exploitation by the players. The first call of duty had to implement a supression to jumping. You would go on a ton of servers and just see 30 dudes running through a feild hopping around like idiots cause of how hard it became to hit them.

Supression was introduced after the -acc becaue the devs saw the ability to que attacks from range and then run or jump through the attack range to trigger the attack, by the time the animation was started you were a substanial distance again from the enemy. This was multiplied to be even worse in PVP, when it could be done with many of the scrapper and melee powers best attacks.

Yes it can in fact still be done, sorta. You can pull it off really 1 time effectively, but the supression slows you down from just being a all out gank fest with travel powers. I dont like supression i liked the -acc better, but many people complained about it.

Over all it was introduced i guess to stop what i said it was, the devs will maintain that was in PVE, i personally say then why not a fix for over a year, even through the COH beta where this was being done. UNTIL it became a PVP issue as well.

But over all the very issue he describes in the patch notes, is basicly jousting, kiting, whatever you want to call it, but its triggering attacks in greater safety by using the travel powers to combat advantage when combined with the game mechanics.

JeetKuneDo

01-27-2006, 12:46 PM

Mark me down as a voice requesting a flight increase to Hover at least. I used to 4 slot it. That was about all the speed I wanted....so I'm not too greedy. It crawls now...and kinda sucks a little.

I took it on my Scrapper too and discovered it is almost useless in combat since you don't close to melee distance when you use "follow" with Hover on. I'm not sure why this is. Seems kinda underpowered. It's slower than sprint AND won't close to melee? Wow...

Seems a waste that we have more slots to play with now...and we can't use them to play with in travel powers like we used to wish we could. (I wanted to put multiple slots in fly and Hover...but couldn't really spare them.)

JeetKuneDo

01-27-2006, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be nice if you could use it in fights to keep up with your team mates and pursue mobs, also when you are a meleeist.

Why should aerial combat be the exclusive domain of those with ranged attacks? Those with melee attacks wants to be able to use some kind of "combat flight" too... :(

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I wonder why you can't close to melee using "follow" with Hover on. It makes the power useless for Scrappers.

GothQueen2

01-27-2006, 01:44 PM

well i guess that answered my question fast. Thank for the hover info. My dang defender is resting peaceful in the hive since HOs not so good no more. bah. Moment of silence to all our retired heroes.........

Cambios

01-28-2006, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 flight speed SOs should make it faster than unslotted sprint + swift.

Or perhaps let swift affect hover speed so 3 flight speed SOs + swift is faster than sprint + swift.

Veldt

01-28-2006, 07:36 AM

One more vote for extra flight speed.

I don't mind leaving Hover as it is. You're hovering, not flying. Pre-ED, some people were six-slotting Hover to fly around, bypassing the need to take Fly as a travel power. That wasn't right.

That being said, an extra speed boost on fly would be appropriate. That and the possibility to use Super Speed with Fly for those speed freaks out there.

BellaStrega

01-28-2006, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One more vote for extra flight speed.

I don't mind leaving Hover as it is. You're hovering, not flying. Pre-ED, some people were six-slotting Hover to fly around, bypassing the need to take Fly as a travel power. That wasn't right.

[/ QUOTE ]

It didn't really bypass the need to take fly as a travel power. Hover's base speed is way too slow.

Biostem

01-28-2006, 06:09 PM

I think the point brought up is, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that modifying flight's suppressed speed or it's overall end use would render hover obsolete. Other than getting it earlier, why would you take it?

I think hover's speed should be upped and fly's end cost lowered a decent amount. Fly's speed shouldn't be too great, otherwise why take any of the other travel powers? Maybe up fly and hover's base speeds so they meet their old max speeds when you had 6-slotted them.

Lycantropus

01-28-2006, 09:07 PM

Like I said before, I don't think an increased speed to Hover would break the power either. Maybe back when you could 6-slot it with flight speed, and it made it almost as fast as an unslotted fly, that was a reason to keep the base speed of Hover as slow as it is.

However, now in this ED world, things like that were what it was designed to "correct," I think a number of the base numbers of powers (including movement speeds- keeping it on topic) should be revisited based on the new paradigm.

With ED in effect, Hover can be faster without being a threat to Fly, or as a desireable alternative to an actual "travel" power. I would just like it to be effective as a "movement" power.

Red_Zero

01-29-2006, 02:53 AM

Hover has a number of advantages that Flight just doesnt have. No Movement Supression, Low Endurance usage, quick short stop which allows for quick use of interuptable powers, high manuverablity and control, and the lower speed can be more useful than high speed all the time as there is not throttle control, Hover makes an extremely good tight quarters combat movement power and with 6 slots Pre-ED good for tactical movement on mission maps and keeping up with teams and being able to retreat without changing movement modes. However, Hover's speed has always been extremely slow, which is why Pre-ED it was 6 slotted alot, and even people who 6-slotted it still took Flight for more speed. Boosting Hover's base speed would not be bad if done reasonably because it still would not be in competition with other movement powers. Boosting Flight's speed could be done as it is much slower than even Super Jump which is actually the 2nd slowest major travel power in the game. ED impacted Flight a bit too as it took a 4 slots to truely max the speed out, though 3 slots gave you the majority of the speed with a small remainder left. Given that Flight's speed cap is at 54 mph and Super Jump is at 74 mph with Super Speed at 84 mph, I would say that adding an extra 10 mph to the cap would not be outrageous to Flight as well as changing it so that you can max out Flight with only 3 SO's as there are no other speed boosters for Flight like Swift, Hurdle, and Sprint for Super Jump and Super Speed.

Iodine

02-01-2006, 10:44 AM

TheArtifex

02-01-2006, 12:42 PM

I don't buy the arguments that suppression wasn't for PvP either. Many PvE changes were made that dealt with snipes, like giving MOBs huge range boosts on their ranged attacks, increasing aggro duration, etc. Those are the sorts of fixes that make jousting/sniping difficult enough to cease being worthwhile. Suppression in PvE is simply overkill.

I can see why Suppression is needed in PvP. Melee classes wouldn't stand a chance in PvP without some form of reduction in travel power effectiveness. But PvE? I can't see it.

danomal

02-01-2006, 12:45 PM

Just to add my voice to the chorus...

I think a minor speed boost in hover would make the power tremendously more FUN without breaking it or harming flight in any way. having to drop down and sprint to catch a pve runner because hover is so slow and suppressed flight is slower is frustrating.

also, flight's speed compared to the other travel powers is a little embarassing...

caelin_NA

02-07-2006, 02:18 PM

I'll chime in here and ask for a boost to hover and flyspeed, and at the very least an end reduction for fly. Group fly needs... something.

Comfort

02-07-2006, 03:13 PM

A whole thread here and no one has pointed out the obvious. Hmm.

Fly/hover is easily the most powerful travel power for versatility. Any character of mine that isn't a front line fighter has it and I have no complaints at all with it's current 'usefulness' post ED. With three SO's in both Fly and Hover, movement is a non-issue and switching back and forth isn't really that hard, my only complaint is that supression doesn't switch over to hover automatically (meaning you're still taking the end penalty for Flight when suppressed and you don't move at your hover speed).

If you want an example of why Flight/Hover are fine right now try this. Go into a mission and use ANY other travel power to avoid melee entirely. Don't take a single melee hit from any mob while the power is active. It makes you immune to knockdown, resistant to knockback, and immune to ground effects like caltrops and certain stomp attacks. Kinda hard to do all that with superjump, superspeed, and teleport isn't it?

Do you really want the devs to start mucking around with the power that give you all of that in addition to being one of the most reliable travel powers?

I hope this silences the complaints in this thread.

Mirai

02-07-2006, 04:38 PM

Some people just want a travel power that does everything. Fast and versatile. Fly and Hover have a lot of advantages, which is offset by slower speed and a high endurance cost for Fly. If you make Fly faster, why take Super Jump or Super Speed?

I've noticed a big drop in the number of super speeders, although I still see them here and there. They used to be very much FotM. People liked the speed and the stealth and kept complaining about obstacles. Oddly, I don't remember seeing too many complaints about Super Jump.

I'm not wild about the suppression in Fly, but I don't think it's any worse than the big accuracy penalty it replaced. I can live with the top speed, especially since it's a good speed to zip around inside door missions. Hover is meant to be very slow, and gives me a good ranged firing platform. The endurance cost of Fly isn't really a problem if you slap an endurance reduction enhancemnt or two in it, since it's not meant as a power to be used in combat (switch to Hover or land).

I currently have 23 characters with Fly and another who will be picking it up next level. :D

BallLightning

02-07-2006, 05:30 PM

Okay two ideas for you guys to toss around:

New power pool:
(Note on availability to keep it 'fair'. It does not unlock until level 14. However, if you've hit 50 any new toons you take can take it at 1 or 6 as normal akin to the Kheldians. Also it wouldn't have the prerequsite component like the other pools. So you could take the 4th power first if you want.)

Power Pool Travel
-Super Jump
-Super Speed
-Teleport
-Fly

There... now in one pool you've got access to the entire string of travel powers. It's not entirely unreasonable to think a super hero might specialize in 'warping' the universe around them. Look at */grav/* toons.

Any of the travel powers could work in their favor:

Super Speed:
-They modify the gravity around their body so they are 'falling' forward instead of being pulled down.

Super Jump:
-They reduce the gravity around their body to something akin to the moon allowing them to super-jump.

Fly:
-They manipulate the gravity around their body to fly through the air.

Teleport:
-They create a 'personal' wormhole. (Theoretically 'real' wormholes are created when two blackholes collide. They then 'pull' the space between them as they move away from each other creating the 'hole' in space.)

Magic origic:

Nuff said, it's magic.

A seperate pool containing all the travel powers would let someone take any/all of the TP's without having to take other pools.

The second idea: stacking.

If I opt to take SS and Fly, let the SS speed affect my flight speed. I know this wouldn't allow for complete stacking (IE: Flight and SJ are kinda' exclusive) but it would allow people to take the vert/safety of fly with the speed of SS. It would balance itself by the fact that you'd need to take *4* powers to have high-speed flight.

Thoughts?

Dream_Crusher

02-07-2006, 05:47 PM

or 3 to haver damn fast hover with very low endurance cost

Snakebit

02-09-2006, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hover was never an effective travel power. It was an effective combat mobility power IF you invested 5-6 slots of single origin flight speed enhancements into it. You guys need to get over your fears of overpowering silly stuff.

Lancer0607

02-10-2006, 12:26 AM

on my alt controller I have Hover slotted with speed and I get up to about normal running speed (without sprint) this combined with dispersion bubble and personal force field while singularity is running makes me feel pretty darn invincible (even +3 level mobs hardly touch me and when they do hit they deal pathetic damage). As for flight it really needs a boost to speed, it's so slow that it's convinency is lost, I think that flight should be made faster but hover can stay the same.

caelin_NA

02-10-2006, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Some people just want a travel power that does everything. Fast and versatile. Fly and Hover have a lot of advantages, which is offset by slower speed and a high endurance cost for Fly. If you make Fly faster, why take Super Jump or Super Speed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not advocating for Fly to become a Mach 3 screamer. I'd just like for once to NOT be the positivly last person to arrive at a mission with a fully slotted fly.

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed a big drop in the number of super speeders, although I still see them here and there. They used to be very much FotM. People liked the speed and the stealth and kept complaining about obstacles. Oddly, I don't remember seeing too many complaints about Super Jump.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my mains was a 'speeder and I would consistantly beat flyers in zones I had traversed before. Hurdle with one jump enh and sprint with a jump enh do wonders. SS is so fast that it makes up for the lack of verticle imo. Fly gets full verticle but even maxed out has no way to compete on the speed scale barring speedboost.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not wild about the suppression in Fly, but I don't think it's any worse than the big accuracy penalty it replaced. I can live with the top speed, especially since it's a good speed to zip around inside door missions. Hover is meant to be very slow, and gives me a good ranged firing platform. The endurance cost of Fly isn't really a problem if you slap an endurance reduction enhancemnt or two in it, since it's not meant as a power to be used in combat (switch to Hover or land).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hover should be the power with the speed tuned for inside door missions. If hover were tweaked to be just slower than walking unslotted and caps out slightly higher than sprint I think this would be ideal for that role.

Fly should get juiced up a bit to compete in speed with the others taking into account it's direct line of travel advantages. (Which SJ has as well for the most part btw.)

The End usage can be slotted agains, you are correct. Currently tele is the only other that you have to slot End rdx for. It's a burden on the lower lvl chars where slots are scarce, just to make your travel power get you across a zone with end left.

Cut the current 2.0something end usage to 1.0something so you don't have to sink so much into it in the beginning. Later on the end usage drops by the wayside with SO's and stamina anyways.

And yes, I'm not a fan of suppression in general. Takes quite a bit away from the superhero feel when movement enhanced combat becomes rather comical to watch and annoying to play. But, it was never a big tactic of mine so I can deal with it.

I'm not looking for a One Travel Power. I'm looking for a Fly I don't groan about when I take. One where my team of SS SJ and TP users are grouseing at me to hurry up, or better yet, tell me to stay put so the TP'er can just port me.

The 4th tier power on fly and Tp both need some help. TP could use a decrease in end usage as well.

okies, 'nuff rambeling for now.

Ultra_Violence

02-10-2006, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Some people just want a travel power that does everything. Fast and versatile. Fly and Hover have a lot of advantages, which is offset by slower speed and a high endurance cost for Fly. If you make Fly faster, why take Super Jump or Super Speed?

I've noticed a big drop in the number of super speeders, although I still see them here and there. They used to be very much FotM. People liked the speed and the stealth and kept complaining about obstacles. Oddly, I don't remember seeing too many complaints about Super Jump.

I'm not wild about the suppression in Fly, but I don't think it's any worse than the big accuracy penalty it replaced. I can live with the top speed, especially since it's a good speed to zip around inside door missions. Hover is meant to be very slow, and gives me a good ranged firing platform. The endurance cost of Fly isn't really a problem if you slap an endurance reduction enhancemnt or two in it, since it's not meant as a power to be used in combat (switch to Hover or land).

I currently have 23 characters with Fly and another who will be picking it up next level. :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Hover also has a small Defensive bonus. And to point out the obvious again the name is HOVER not fly. Hover means float in one place not fly around. If you want to Fly use Fly, if you want to Hover use Hover. You aren't supposed to get everything in one package.

Using Hover means sacrificing some mobility for the many other benefits you gain. Without trade-offs the game is a lot less interesting. This is the same arguement that escapes people wanting to give Super Speed vertical movement. The trade-off for the fastest movement power is that you don't have vertical movement. That is the whole point.

If you don't like the trade-off, don't take the power. That is the nature of trade-offs and what makes them interesting.

Peteroid

02-10-2006, 01:54 PM

I can see the justification for fly being somewhat slow, especially compared to the other travel powers.

Super Speed - the fastest travel power where you need to actually inhabit all the locations in between. It's extreme speed is traded off by it's 2D limitation. One can also attack while moving (although suppression will kick in then). This power also benefits by allowing one to get hasten without using up a powerset.

Teleport - faster than super speed if used to its extreme. Motion is 3D. But very hard to 'aim', no real control over distance, its an endurance hog, and attacking while using it is not possible (without hover, and then the attack is really during hover, not TP).

Super Jump - 3D motion with good manueverability. Almost a cousin to fly, but different in that one must 'touch the ground' and be constantly moving.

Fly - So, the reason fly has to be slow is that it is 3D and has full manueverability control (heck, you can even stay in one location in mid air!).

The point is that every travel power has a balancing factor to it to keep them almost equal choices. Super speed is balanced by the 2D restriction. TP is balanced by the lack of aim and difficulty of use. Super Jump has to touch the ground. So, it does make sense that fly would be the slowest.

And so the problem is this. If you up the fly speed, then every other travel power needs to be 'upped' too to keep the balance. But, if you up those powers, we're back to fly is still holding everyone back.

So, if you want to up the flight speed, you need to come up with some DISAVANTAGE to add to it to compensate. Got any ideas?

Finally, I can see good reasons to allow combo's of travel powers to have some advantage. Like if one could turn on both super speed+ fly to fly very fast. This works because it's balance is that one must use up two powersets, and both powers have an earlier power requirement.

Icecap

02-10-2006, 02:14 PM

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All of my toons had fly pool, but since ED I'm now disgusted with it, especially for PVP. Hover is so unreasonable at its current speed. To compound this, there is like double the amount of -fly powers out there, compared to -jump, to clip our wings even further. This is another example of the devs backing us into particular pools, like they did pre ED with Hasten, and Stamina. Jump pool FTW........

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Lets also add that a EQUAL level begining travel power (CJ) allows you to go faster and is MUCH more combat friendly. Why not -fly resist for Hover?

Icecap

02-10-2006, 02:44 PM

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I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.

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The real issue in this question is balance. While logistically speaking yes you should be able to get from point A to point B faster when moving in a straight line. However, the balance supposedly comes from flight's safety (I'm not advocating what the devs have done in fact I find it just as deplorable as you, I'm just trying to reasonably explain it.) The risk when taking off from point A using SJ is in the fact that you inevitably must land, occasionally in a group of mobs. Whereas, using flight all mobs (save the high flying longbow versions of sky skiffs etc.,) are avoidable lowering the amount of risk you have. If flight were faster that SJ, SS, or TP, than what would be the point of anyone taking any of the other travel powers if they can get from point A to point B not only faster with flight, but also much, much more safely.

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Balance over the entire game is an issue not just travel powers and why take travel powers that are less desireable then others? For NICE (not lame, near usless) level 20 powers in those pools.

Why is leaping so popular? CJ ok defense + status resist power, good travel power, and Acro is nice for a lot of AT's to pick up. Lets look at fly............, ok now how about Teleport: Recall Friend, Tp Foe, and .... Ok Teleport itself is not all that bad. How about Speed: hasten, not anything like it was (remeber the def boost from back when plus the +70% increase?), and super speed..fast and minor stealth not to bad. The rest of the pool, or even just the level 20...whirlwind! "Oh, look at what you can do and not get sick, I am sure the Villians tremble!" So there we go, without concepts the other pools nearly reek of dung matter compaired to leaping.

BallLightning

02-10-2006, 03:12 PM

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And so the problem is this. If you up the fly speed, then every other travel power needs to be 'upped' too to keep the balance. But, if you up those powers, we're back to fly is still holding everyone back.

So, if you want to up the flight speed, you need to come up with some DISAVANTAGE to add to it to compensate. Got any ideas?

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We're not asking for it to SS fast, just a tad faster.

Disadvantage is already incorporated, end drain! You can't maintain a fight with fly on for long. Excluding TP (because it's NOT a sustained mode of transportation, it's simply instant relocation) the other TP's can remain on in combat. I know very few SS'ers who shut off SS during a fight. Those that do are only doing it to get around the slowdown supression causes.

Lycantropus

02-10-2006, 04:03 PM

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We're not asking for it to SS fast, just a tad faster.

Disadvantage is already incorporated, end drain!

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And.. AND... it costs more slots (in endreds and flightspeeds) to make it competitive for what it's supposed to do- get you from point A to point B. Even then, it's still slower.

That's the price. How many drawbacks are needed to make it "fair" to other sets that are faster, almost as safe, and work just the way you want them right out of the box?

All this because of the excuse of safety?? No. My main is a Super Jumper and gets there just as safely and much faster (only suffered one or two defeats moving across zones in his whole carreer, and they were from when I first got it, and then I learned to be careful where I land). The only advantage Fly or TP has over it is when you're in the Shard. With the Stealth component in Super Speed, even that is relatively as "safe" as fly.

Still.. I have Fly on many characters. Not because it's specifically beneficial (since all travel powers ultimately do the same thing) but because it's fitting to the character. I imagine most people are the same way. Those that aren't pick whatever is the easiest and most effective anyway, so that isn't really a viable argument either.

Disclaimer:
By no means am I suggesting to "nerf" SJ or SS!!! ( I specify this, because it seems that's the direction the Dev's go in when seeing arguments comparing better powers to ones we want a boost to)

BallLightning

02-10-2006, 08:39 PM

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We're not asking for it to SS fast, just a tad faster.

Disadvantage is already incorporated, end drain!

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And.. AND... it costs more slots (in endreds and flightspeeds) to make it competitive for what it's supposed to do- get you from point A to point B. Even then, it's still slower.

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Duh I wanted to add that too... thanks for posting it since I forgot.

That's true. While you certainly have the option to slot the TP's I usually can find a better use for the slots on toons with SS/SJ. I honestly do not have a single toon with either power that dedicated slots to those powers.

On the contrary on all my toons with flight have tripled slotted hover and triple slotted fly, all slots speed. (Fly will never be a practical enough combat power to even bother wasting end redux on it and with stamina it's not longer a 'drain' on me.)

However, sinle-slotting SS with speed and SJ with jump are normally effective.

I'd even buy the 'safety' of fly for it being slower... that does NOT justify the end drain nor does it explain it.

I also /sign on NOT asking the other travel powers get nerfed either! Aside from just being childish, I have all the tp's spread across my alts so I'd only gimp myself anyway. :p