Whirlwind changed in last patch?

[Red_Zero]

Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[TheRetropolitan]

Someone took whirlwind?

*weird*

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd act as if it were a bug, because it is indeed not noted in the patch notes as far as I can see.

[Eisregen_NA]

I can still knock... Oh, wait, Whirlwind? Weird. Might really be tied into the ragdoll change.

And for the record, the word was that the change would only be rolled back two builds down the line from when the statement was made. So, it's probably still the 'reduced' version on live right now.

[Monkey_King]

Can't think of any reason why Whirlwind would suddenly knock back instead of up. Levitate, Disembowel, and Jump Kick all knock up despite ragdoll physics being in place. Enemies don't quite go straight up and down, but it's close enough.

Considering the hideous endurance cost on Whirlwind, I can't imagine why they would feel changing it to knockback would be necessary from a balance perspective. Yes, it's some mad soft control, but not even a Regen scrapper is going to be able to keep that going for very long, much less attack while doing so.

[Cable_1975]

Jump Kick along with other powers do knockback occasionally. I have knocked enemies half way across the room with jump kick but not every time.

[Aaron123]

I've noticed this too on Whirlwind before this patch...some clarification would be great. I loved this power on my MA/SR.

[Smidge]

If you have conserve energy, its a fun and handy power. Not rooted blasting, you have the ablity to take one participant out of a fight, (even some bosses)

And it makes a great costume change power ;)

[Red_Zero]

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed this too on Whirlwind before this patch...some clarification would be great. I loved this power on my MA/SR.

[/ QUOTE ]

If thats the case, then it had to be fairly recently if not the last patch. Granted, Whirlwind isn't a very popular power but it is rather fun, and when I do use it I count on it I expect it to act a certain way. There is a very big difference between knockup to knockback that affects how a melee character uses it. What I want to know is when did this undocumented change happen and why? Its things like this that can make it hard to seperate game bugs from designer changes.

[Glowworm_Nexus]

It may be ragdoll. My mind controller uses Levitate and though it still does KU there is a horizontal component--they go straight up and then fall down further away than they started. Not a big deal w/just the one attack but if WW is applying the same effect over and over the mobs will quickly get knocked out of the WW effect.

Are they getting knocked far back or just a 10 feet or so? I'm thinking Levitate only knocks them back one or two body lengths.

Or are they not going up at all and just going straight away from you?

[Monkey_King]

Your knockup throws the enemy 10 feet away? What powers are you using? My Dominator uses Levitate religiously, but I've never known it to move the enemy much farther from where he was standing. More like his up and down flight arc curves a little bit based on which direction his limbs are flailing in.

Giving it some thought, it has to be a bug. It's okay for a Defender to be shoving people around with Hurricane, but put a similar tool in the hands of a Tanker, and I'm seeing some abuse.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[StratoNexus]

Buh? After I took whirlwind, I thought it was fun and it helped keep me alive. Now it sends everyone flying away from my scrapper and is annoying. It still helps keep me alive, but pisses everyone on my team off. Arrrgh. I learned how to use hurricane, and I have already started using corners and such to help with whirlwind. Maybe I can adapt to this change, but it is a sad change that I do not like. It may be easier for me to adapt than others, as I always had some knockback issues. It seems that when I used whirlwind my knockdown attacks (Soaring Dragon and Golden Dragonfly) always did knockback instead (stacking mag maybe?).

So, this is two changes now that have been undocumented. How about we go back and see if there is anything else we should know?

[Aaron123]

Man...I loved whirlwind on my MA/SR...knockback ain't gonna do much except in a team situation...

Might be time to use a respec.

[Cuppa_Lux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys seriously need to harden the policies on your CVS or whatever other tool you're using for version management. This happens way too often.

[DA_Sapphon_40k]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone comment on if Whirlwind functionality has changed in PvP?

Assuming the other 10% of the exploit is covered by a different set of circumstances, what was the exploit involving Whirlwind? (provided that answering doesn't let the cat out of the bag on the other 10%)

[fuzzy_chainsaw]

[ QUOTE ]
No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know, this is the only problem I'm having with the game...

For the last several months *every* patch has had missing notes that the players have had to find out about and determine if there was a bug or an intentional change.

Statesman even said in Ask Statesman that this was inexcusable and needs to change... And sure enough, the next three patches all had faulty notes.

This is just getting under my skin. This and between-issue-blues.

[Energizing_Ion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know, this is the only problem I'm having with the game...

For the last several months *every* patch has had missing notes that the players have had to find out about and determine if there was a bug or an intentional change.

Statesman even said in Ask Statesman that this was inexcusable and needs to change... And sure enough, the next three patches all had faulty notes.

This is just getting under my skin. This and between-issue-blues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded.

[RiktiProject]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't think of any reason why Whirlwind would suddenly knock back instead of up. Levitate, Disembowel, and Jump Kick all knock up despite ragdoll physics being in place. Enemies don't quite go straight up and down, but it's close enough.

Considering the hideous endurance cost on Whirlwind, I can't imagine why they would feel changing it to knockback would be necessary from a balance perspective. Yes, it's some mad soft control, but not even a Regen scrapper is going to be able to keep that going for very long, much less attack while doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]
On my empath, I used to use it after RA to keep an entire group of mobs disabled. I guess this is the exploit? I thought I was using the power as it was intended to be used.

[Suntydt_Villain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

For those of you complaining about the seriousness of this crime you really need to take a chill pill and relax. I'm sure every instance of missed patch notes has been an oversight that the Devs regret. I'm sure none of you have forgotten anything at work ESPECIALLY when it involved the work of several people culminating results. The effort these guys go to making patch notes available has been very impressive to me (much better than some other unmentioned MMORPGs). I applaud them. I REALLY applaud the fact they fess up to their mistakes and apologize; they're almost human o.O

[TheMightyStorm]

No power is intended to be effective. If a power does what it appears to do by the description, then it is malfunctioning and needs to be brought in line with the rest of the powers.

I'm curious as to how Whirlwind stacks up against Repel now, since they're similar powers. Is whirlwind substantially more expensive?

[Aaron123]

Just did a Rugged Crey mission with my MA/SR. Mostly against minions; some Lts. Whirlwind still does pretty well, it's just a bit of an added hassle trying to catch up with the guy after you knock them back, but I just used Sprint to catch up. Once the KB fix comes in, it should gain some value back. At the end of the mission, when I was about to die, I turned on Conserve Energy, Elude, and Whirlwind. Since I could still perform attacks while in Whirlwind, and the fact that this was the Rikti monkey mission, I was like a twirling torrent of pwnage. :p Don't think I'll be respeccing out of it. It's just too much fun.

As for PvP, to be honest before Whirlwind was changed to KB it never affected too many enemies in the first place (with all the mez protection). If anything, this should be a boost in PvP because there are many instances where KB is a whole lot more useful in PvP than knockup.

[BlueWrecker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly was the PVE exploit if we can ask? If as mentioned it was the RA combo with this, that's not an exploit. That simply combining two powers to maximum effect based on what each is allowed to do individually. It's no more an exploit than a tank taking on much bigger groups than he should be able to whilst backed up by a dedicated empath.

Just curious, on this one, since I'd never actually heard of exploit before this. I hardly ever even saw people use this except for style or a rare "Oh crap!" moment.

[lykka]

for those that have little experience in MMO from the player POV and the dev POV the reason that they do not put in notes that state what exploits are fixed is that when it becomes known what the cheats are it becomes easier for larger numbers of players to find and use exploits before the dev team can fix them.

i would be VERY shocked if they ever started telling us the details of what is fixed or about to be fixed in any detail when they are plugging holes in the code. folks just need to chill and play the game.

it is no secret a lot of the skills are waaaay over powered. for example the -acc of hurricane is such taht get 3 of those together and whatever enemy is fighting you they stand little to no chance of hitting back no matter what the enemy does whether it is pvp or pve. things like that will get changed.

my hope is that the devs dont do a flat out nerf but instead pick more player friendly means of doing like hard capping de-buffs and such.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know, this is the only problem I'm having with the game...

For the last several months *every* patch has had missing notes that the players have had to find out about and determine if there was a bug or an intentional change.

Statesman even said in Ask Statesman that this was inexcusable and needs to change... And sure enough, the next three patches all had faulty notes.

This is just getting under my skin. This and between-issue-blues.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Umber]

Recently took Whirlwind on a villain as a "theme" power, the knockback didn't even register. Its been a *long* time since I'd had a character with Whirlwind, and even then it was on Test for just long enuf to realize it wasn't too great of a choice :D Don't team regularly with anyone else who has it. I remember it being Knock Up now that its mentioned, guess I should be annoyed? Eh, personally the knock up effect looked goofy to me, I like the scattering effect moreso.

Still, missing patch notes is a Bad Thing and once again looks like an attempt at sneaking a nerf by everyone. This is not acceptable, devs. Get your change tracking processes down to a fine science before something really big comes along and bites you.

[Kong_Fuu]

I get the impression that changes go on the Devs internal build for a couple of months, then get merged into the test build, which is then copied over as the running build. I suspect the lack of patch notes comes in because a lot of these changes were fairly minor things that they did two months ago and forgot about. When they finally make it live players go "[censored]!" and the devs say to themselves "oh, looks like that change made it live".

I wonder if the thought process behind which patches get merged to test is a little haphazard? Obviously some things (ED, Defense changes, Smoke Grenade fix, etc...) stay on the developers build longer than others (Prestige duping bug), and it could easily be difficult to keep track of which features made it to which build. Of course better revision control would solve that problem, but it can be really hard to change revision control systems after you start using one.

[Monkey_King]

I'm curious what the exploit was as well. The power was explicitly designed to let you juggle an enemy. I guess the exploit had something to do with knocking an enemy up into something, but that's easier to do with knockback.

The power is still usable, but it's more of a pain in the butt now; now you'll have to find a corner to throw people into before you can juggle them.

[pmgunnerxx]

I didn't know it was possible to attack while using whirlwind. Was it possible to juggle mobs for an indefinite amount of time while safely killing them? I know endurance would be an issue but assuming it wasn't, is the above possible? If it is that is likely what they were trying to fix/stop.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys seriously need to harden the policies on your CVS or whatever other tool you're using for version management. This happens way too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is that they don't have a "don't show patch notes on just test" code for notes.

*Because* it was to patch an exploit, it won't get told before it goes live (to keep people from abusing it greatly before the fix is in, basically.)

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know it was possible to attack while using whirlwind. Was it possible to juggle mobs for an indefinite amount of time while safely killing them? I know endurance would be an issue but assuming it wasn't, is the above possible? If it is that is likely what they were trying to fix/stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. Whirlwind + Fire Patch?

It's *always* the fire tankers faul, you know! ;)

[Vanden]

I know it was possible to combine Fly and Whirlwind, hold forward and toggle auto-follow, and juggle a mob straight up to the ceiling of a zone. But I can't see how this is exploitative. First, you get no xp for falling damage. It was mainly a coolness thing. Second, it didn't work anymore with ragdoll anyway, because mobs that are ragdolling can't be affected by knockback.

[BlueSentinel]

[ QUOTE ]
No power is intended to be effective. If a power does what it appears to do by the description, then it is malfunctioning and needs to be brought in line with the rest of the powers.

I'm curious as to how Whirlwind stacks up against Repel now, since they're similar powers. Is whirlwind substantially more expensive?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I love that first line! Sometimes it feels like that way!

As to all the people that keep saying 'chill' and such, well we might if it wasn't a pattern. It seems we constantly have to catch the undocumented changes and force the issue rather than just have them tell us something has changed. It gets very frustrating at times.

And let me add that if this is another of those 'game-breaking' exploits, I have only seen maybe 5 or 10 players use this power in 18 months of play and I have never seen anyone use it to gain 'risk-free' XP.

[MadScientist]

you just need to understand that the test server isn't there to test the game, it's there to test the notes.
:D

[Eisregen_NA]

I personally think this is rather sad, as Whirlwind used to offer a different functionality than Repel (and whatever the EA version of it is called), Hurricane or Repulsion Bomb. The power's just gotten a little less unique. Meh.

[Celestial_Fury]

One thing i finally understand in this game is that : If a power is actually useful and gives you any kind of advantage against an enemy tougher than you , it quickly becomes called an exploit and it get nerfed to oblivion .

There is no place for creative players and as soon as you devise a few new combat styles that gives you the upper hand , devs will soon either : modify the enemy so theyll be immuned , modify the power so it dont work anymore or theyll simply modify the power so it becomes basically a waste to have it due to its lack of efficiency .

It is now another power to add to the long list of annoying/useless/unfun/tedious/ineffective/dangerous/unwanted powers that the game is offering us to pretend players have more options in game ( sarcasm ) . You can now add Whirlwind to the list : Team teleport , Flurry , Jump kick , Phase shift , Challenge , Stimulant , Invisibility , Increase Density , Bonfire , Boost range and more .

Feel free to complete the list and add more powers that simply arent useful enough to be worth taking .

Remember : If it helps you , it is broken . And it shall get fixed .

:confused:

[Lobster]

I so hate to be that guy...but seriously, where is all the fun going? Is it in the fridge, or perhaps the microwave? Stuck to the bottom corner of the table, covered in old saliva? Waiting outside patiently in the recyling bin for a homeless person to swipe it for 3 cents? Acting as a decorative urinal cake in the expected location?

*nail*

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

When making the power much weaker for PvE in this way, wouldn't some compensation be in order? Such as a reduced End cost?

[Aaron123]

Am I the only guy who's actually tried this out extensively to know how much of an effect it's making? You just run after them now...like any other knockback power. I guess only I can live with it. :|

[StratoNexus]

As I stated in my post, I have used it and begun to change the way I use it. I find it a little harder to use than Hurricane, as the animation does not clearly show the AoE (granted hurricane's AoE extends a tiny bit past the animation, but so far it has been easier to judge hurricane's AoE for me). I often find myself meaning to go around an enemy so I can send them back at the group or into a corner, but I clip them and send them flying back towards the next mob. Maybe with more practice this issue will fade.

Did Whirlwind not have a cap on the number of mobs it affected? Would adding a cap of 10 mobs have solved whatever exploit existed, without punishing the rest of us? If so, is it just too hard to work a cap for whirlwind? In my personal experience I rarely have more than 5 enemies in my whirlwind, so I do not know if it could be used to juggle an obsecenly large herd, but that seems to me to be a likely possibility for an exploit.

[Narcissus]

[ QUOTE ]
No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.


[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine that. :)

[CelticFist]

Like someone else posted .. time for a respect on my tank. I picked whirlwind because I thought it would cool power and help me grab and keep aggro while waiting for my attacks to recharge when wearing granite. I posted about this previously and never got an answer on the change.

Overall I am miffed my power choice was changed but as others stated get your act to gether with the patch notes. Castle you do a good job of answering our question and such in the past can you please stay on top of all the stealth changes.

Super Tough
Lvl 45 Stone/Ice tank

[Vanden]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it a little harder to use than Hurricane, as the animation does not clearly show the AoE (granted hurricane's AoE extends a tiny bit past the animation, but so far it has been easier to judge hurricane's AoE for me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hurricane's visual effect, like all powers, scales with the height of the character using it. As tall character will appear to generate a larger hurricane than a shorter character. However, the area the power affects is always the same. You probably just have a short character.

[StratoNexus]

My hurricane user is about 6', maybe a bit taller. But my whirlwind user is short, 4' 6' ish, maybe that is my problem. Hopefully, practice will help. I still wish it had remained knockdown.

[The_Gamemaster]

Yes...;)

[Nevre]

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you complaining about the seriousness of this crime you really need to take a chill pill and relax. I'm sure every instance of missed patch notes has been an oversight that the Devs regret. I'm sure none of you have forgotten anything at work ESPECIALLY when it involved the work of several people culminating results. The effort these guys go to making patch notes available has been very impressive to me (much better than some other unmentioned MMORPGs). I applaud them. I REALLY applaud the fact they fess up to their mistakes and apologize; they're almost human o.O

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of attitude is acceptable the first 50 times (and I think that is being generous).

After that, PEOPLE SHOULD BE LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps Statesman needs to post with some of the discipline that is being handed out...that ought to keep people happy.

Anyways, as for the changes, its yet another case of 'You were using this power to have fun? What the hell? Better stop having fun your way and start having fun our way!!!!'

And how many times can we see that before we get tired of it...well again, the first 50 or so was probably enough.

*sighs*

[Contempt]

Ouch. That's.... not a great change. It was a pretty decent power before, situational but handy. Now... eh. I won't be taking it, anyways.

But I guess if it had to happen, it had to happen. No better options, though? If it was doing perma-knockdown, could you maybe grant enemies a few seconds of knockdown immunity instead of switching it to knockback? That'd at least make it reasonable for melee heroes/villains to use.

[Gunderwald]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't team regularly with anyone else who has it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be forgetting about that lovable AR/Dev blaster that tags along with your tank on occasion. :)

I've got it, used it, and was already debating dropping it before this change. It has a very small AoE and burns End like no tomorrow even with a couple of SO End Redux. I use it as the panic button when fighting a single mob that is getting the best of me. (Before anyone says this is a no risk maneuver, it is the only way I can take out the lethal resistant orange lts that spawn in many of my heroic missions, and they can still get off attacks at me, it just cuts down the frequency.) It doesn't always hit and it seriously reduces my damage output because I don't have the End to keep WW running and my standard attack chain. The only time I toggle-drop from running out of End is when WW is running. Stamina only helps so much when you have 3 toggles you always keep on and Hasten.

This change means I will definitely drop the power as soon as I can pick up a respec. The knockback means that to have a chance to keep a mob in the WW, I have to run sprint, draining even more End. I'm waiting to see what else the devs can change that will furthur reduce the survivability of my AR/Dev. The KB change already hit his primary damage mitigation, and now this greatly reduces the effectiveness of his panic button.

[Red_Zero]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a rather interesting statement. Can't really think of anything that you could use it for to be so effective as to grant the label of "Exploit". Its particularly hard on the endurance and a bit chaotic to use (which is why its fun.) Considering the low popularity of the power, that must have been one heck of an exploit. Aw well, I guess I will have to see this change works out.

[Tenzhi]

It's a mildly annoying change, but I'm more distressed by the animation change it went through. Now, instead of holding his arms straight out to the side, my character drops them limply to his side while spinning. And me without a respec to get out of it.

[Starfox_NA]

Well, another reason we need a free respec with #7. Since the devs never hand out free repecs between issues, all the small changes between issues have to be considered as well. And the cumulative changes between #6 and #7 are adding up.

Give us a free respec and an End reduction on Whirlwind, and I'd be happy.

[Hibernoob]

[ QUOTE ]

You guys seriously need to harden the policies on your CVS or whatever other tool you're using for version management. This happens way too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded.

Also, I was one of the few champions of WW out of all the CoH people I ever played/talked too, and one of the reasons was it's knock-up rather than back. WAY, WAY too many things do knock-back, it's just annoying. I have no idea what this exploit was, however, and failure to disclose it kind of leads me to believe it was something that could have been changed another way, other than a nerf, but probably not as easy from the Devs point of view.

Knock-up is so much more usefull it's not even funny, and you just happened to forget to mention this really bad change that got slipped in there, with, of course, no prior mention/discussion with the players. Missing patch notes on something that had already been discussed would be ok, I mean, who cares, but it's always something that hasn't even been brought up for the players to test that makes it to live and gets "missed" in the patch notes.

I'm sure now it's "working as intended" and we'll never get it changed back...unbelievable, how do you always manage to hit my favorite powers that I'm sure will never, never get nerfed and ignore the ones that could really use a looking at? I mean, it's WW, for chrissakes!!! It's pathetic enough, leave it alone already! *sheesh!*

Not only am I pissed about the power change, I'm pissed about constantly, CONSTANTLY "forgetting" to mention things in the patch notes. They're always nerfs too...when the hell did anyone forget to mention anything good, that players might be happy about? Slip a positive change to Burns fear effect in there and see if anyone notices it for awhile, eh? "Forget" to mention new rocketpacks for every toon with a 30 day timer! Plz...for me?

I appreciate the apology, but if you really want to make us feel better, cut the crap next time, eh? That'll show us you mean it, cause otherwise you're just "pulling a Stalker", placating us just so you can prepare to whack us around again.

[Tal_N]

Great. I just respec'd into this for the continual bouncing facilities which was great for bosses but now I guess that tactic is out of the window.

[Eisregen_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only guy who's actually tried this out extensively to know how much of an effect it's making? You just run after them now...like any other knockback power. I guess only I can live with it. :|

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my main's a Stormie. I pretty much know how that works. I had Whirlwind on my Tank to keep enemies near him and lower their damage output a bit as they get tossed around. If I want a Tank that pushes enemies into a corner, I can go back to my Stormie who also has a whole lot of other neat tricks that make him generally preferable and superior in this position.

[Synfoola]

/agree

Apology is great and all, but an apology followed by duplicate instances is annoying.

And I don't care what anybody says. If you're gonna change the aspect of a power like that, give us a respec or at least let people know before they pick the damned thing. It's akin to cutting the distance of a snipe power in half for a guy who likes to play his blaster as ranged. Not quite as tempting of a power now, is it?

[Straid]

wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*

So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!

It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*

So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!

It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.

It can be upsetting when your normal usage is changed too, but you have to live with it *if* it doesn't open new and different exploits.

[Glowworm_Nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
Your knockup throws the enemy 10 feet away? What powers are you using?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am using Levitate and there is some horizontal movement. I shouldn't have mentioned 10' as that was confusing. If I use levitate on someone who is near an edge (building, crate, whatever) they often fall either draped on the edge or fall over the edge. So there is some sort of variable horizontal movement.

I didn't mean Levitate moved people 10' horizontally--I was trying to ask if WW was moving them a few feet or 10 feet or farther than that. I thought the ragdoll could account for some horizontal but not a lot.

I see now that it is KB and not a ragdoll consequence.

[Glowworm_Nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
Your knockup throws the enemy 10 feet away? What powers are you using?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am using Levitate and there is some horizontal movement. I shouldn't have mentioned 10' as that was confusing. If I use levitate on someone who is near an edge (building, crate, whatever) they often fall either draped on the edge or fall over the edge. So there is some sort of variable horizontal movement.

I didn't mean Levitate moved people 10' horizontally--I was trying to ask if WW was moving them a few feet or 10 feet or farther than that. I thought the ragdoll could account for some horizontal but not a lot.

I see now that it is KB and not a ragdoll consequence.

[Synfoola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*

So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!

It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.

It can be upsetting when your normal usage is changed too, but you have to live with it *if* it doesn't open new and different exploits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you for the most part as I can see (with some regret) that a nerf is coming for Air Sup in the future. But the devs have shown a history, with some notable exceptions, of not only OVERnerfing powers but of overlooking the effects those nerfs have had on powersets that really didn't need nerfing in the first place...and then there's the "Whoops! We forgot to let ya know!" factor. It's like going into surgery for an ingrown toenail and then you wake up to the Doc handing you your shoes and saying, "Oops! Won't be needing this left one anymore...we had to take the leg". LOL

It's not DOOOOOOOOM...but it's sure damned annoying. :(

[Smidge]

Geez a Red name pops up, and now everyone has Whirlwind ;) j/k

I only have this on one toon, and it fits his concept.

The nice thing about whirlwind beyond not rooted attacking was that in a team, you coud effectively take one dangerous mob out of combat...like say a purple jump bot during a respec.

Now, its much more handy in pvp. though its not auto hit, it can save you from AS.
I try not to guzzle inspirations in pvp, (cause if I lose to a human..who cares, no debt) but i'm certain the few times I was tp foe'd into a box with 2 stalkers and a corruptor waiting for me, there was 1 or 2 times my blaster could have escaped the death trap alive.

My only complaint is that leaving it on for extended period makes my head all wonky.
I'll have to try going into first person mode and see if that helps.

[SuperChris]

_Castle_ (and all the renames), this "missed" patch notes thing is getting old. How many months has it been since Statesman said this problem needed to change? Why are we still seeing things missed on every single patch? We spin our wheels for a week or more trying to figure out if something is a bug or a "fix." Why?

I don't think this is intentional. I'm sure it generates more fallout than simply putting the correct bullet point on the patches notes would. Come on folks, what's the problem?

Frustrated,
SuperChris

[Dragon_Clan]

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you complaining about the seriousness of this crime you really need to take a chill pill and relax. I'm sure every instance of missed patch notes has been an oversight that the Devs regret. I'm sure none of you have forgotten anything at work ESPECIALLY when it involved the work of several people culminating results. The effort these guys go to making patch notes available has been very impressive to me (much better than some other unmentioned MMORPGs). I applaud them. I REALLY applaud the fact they fess up to their mistakes and apologize; they're almost human o.O

[/ QUOTE ]

Any decent project manager out there knows how to keep track of revisions and changes or else the project gets skewed from it's track. How hard is it to put a piece of paper on the wall, and as you make a change note that along with the build number? Then when it is time to release make your notes from everyone's paper(overly simplistic example for sarcasm). Yes accidents happen but over and over again? I'd love to be able to tell my boss, oops forgot that, but after the 20th time I'd be looking for a new job.

[Mr_Morden]

[ QUOTE ]
Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but would you really be surprised if AS was changed? This is coming from someone who used it on his scrapper back before i1 when most thought it was garbage.

Now, everyone and his brother has it and they are using it for the side effect which isn't really even part of the power (-fly is supposed to be the main draw). I think the days of people bragging about juggling bosses and the great control power of AS are numbered and have been for quite a while.

Also, someone earlier mentioned team tp is a useless power. I use it all the time on one of my characters and no I won't say how or why. But it is FAR from useless.

[Synfoola]

Hah. Actually I don't have Whirlwind on any of my toons. :) Had it on a Storm Defender I deleted just for kicks and that's about it. :p

[disco_]

I don't actually have a problem with the change to knockback, but if you are looking at it, is it possible to change the animation on it? :p

Maybe have a whirlwind around you without your character spinning around like a madman. And can we get rid of the sound?

[Smidge]

seizure enducing though they may be, I wouldn't want to see them dropped. (wow the memory of it almost made me just pass out)

I am impressed though that it was singled out for change. I can count the times i've seen it in game on another toon on one hand wearing a mitten.

crazy.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]


And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully disagree. I am harmed much less by an exploit than by a nerf. Impairing the fun of many for the sake of balancingthe few is not a good idea.

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me to the people using Whirlwind to solo AVs or gain levels twice as fast as somebody who doesn't have it. Hell, point me to the people who even have Whirlwind in the first place. It would take quite a bit of searching.

Exploit my @$$.

Is a power effective? No matter how marginal that effectiveness may be, it must be nerfed!

It's getting real old.

[Bland]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, why has this and the knockback changes then been added to the change notes?

[Red_Zero]

I'm really wondering if Stalkers had something to do with it. Since the effect of does no damage attributed to the user, would it be possible to catch mobs in the effect without breaking thier Hidden status? With Intergration, Stamina, and 3 End Reductions + 3 KB for fun it might have been possible for them to sneak up, then lock the target into a permanent state of knockup then take care of things at thier leasure with out the target having a chance of recovery. If so, that might have constituted the "Exploit", effectively eliminating any and all risk to the Stalker character in question.

Anyone have any comments on this theory?

[Shadbolt]

"And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it."

Who cares?

Really, truly who honestly gives a rats behind?

Some make Exps to fast by combining their powers together to be more effective...EXPLOIT goes the cry.

Someone uses their powers in PVp to <gasp> WIN. And it's and EXPLOIT.

An exploit is getting more prestige than you pay for a Base item, and then doing it over and over.

An EXPLOIT is not using your powers as designed in new ways to greater benefit for your character and team.

Tell ya what, give everyone Brawl make us all Lvl 50 and call for a battle royal.

Knock all our HP's to the same level and make postive that the Brawl is only useful once every 5 minutes. That'll make it all better.

Then call it City of People who stand around trading punches.

Rant Off.

[Celestial_Fury]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but would you really be surprised if AS was changed? This is coming from someone who used it on his scrapper back before i1 when most thought it was garbage.

Now, everyone and his brother has it and they are using it for the side effect which isn't really even part of the power (-fly is supposed to be the main draw). I think the days of people bragging about juggling bosses and the great control power of AS are numbered and have been for quite a while.

Also, someone earlier mentioned team tp is a useless power. I use it all the time on one of my characters and no I won't say how or why. But it is FAR from useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever , at the rate they are modifying/reducing powersets and pool powers , before long there wont be anything special left from any AT . Like another guy mentioned , there are way too many powers that do knockback in the game and too few that do knockdown or disorient . Why so many knockback powers ? Granted , it looks cool . But gamewise , in many many many many many situations , players arent getting any advantages from a knockback maneuver and it may even sometimes put them in bad situations . So whats the point of all this ? Devs decided to stop making mobs tougher but instead they decided to make our powers perform poorly or in some case simply against us . Seriously , if devs completely decided to remove secondary effects from powers , i dont think players would be losing that much overall . Sure , there are still some very efficient powers with efficient secondary effect ( Air superiority , Cobra Strike , etc .. ) but the ways its going , they will soon be considered exploits because they JUST work fine .

Im not yelling doom but i indeed am showing concern about the way things are going . Some of you are saying that its just a damn game , well exactly , it is just a game . There are no vital needs to change everything every months for the sake of balance .

Just let people have fun for a change ?

[Celestial_Fury]

[ QUOTE ]
"And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it."

Who cares?

Really, truly who honestly gives a rats behind?

Some make Exps to fast by combining their powers together to be more effective...EXPLOIT goes the cry.

Someone uses their powers in PVp to <gasp> WIN. And it's and EXPLOIT.

An exploit is getting more prestige than you pay for a Base item, and then doing it over and over.

An EXPLOIT is not using your powers as designed in new ways to greater benefit for your character and team.

Tell ya what, give everyone Brawl make us all Lvl 50 and call for a battle royal.

Knock all our HP's to the same level and make postive that the Brawl is only useful once every 5 minutes. That'll make it all better.

Then call it City of People who stand around trading punches.

Rant Off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly . While devs are turning their eyes upon the happy guy who found out a way to do something with an unpopular power and judging that the happy guy is doing a little too well ; there are somewhere else a team of 8 sonic defenders that are plowing through any missions at invincible setting and never never never ever get injured due to the stacking of their shields . But that is not an exploit , these guys are raking tons of xps with 0 risk but devs probably decided that they were playing the game as intended ( sarcasm ) . Personnaly , if 8 sonic players decide to team up so they can beat anything for 0 risk then more power to them and i applaud them for their strategy . Likewise , if a single player decide to spent one power choice to get whirlwind and manage to find a way to beat a few bosses with 0 risk , well , why is that wrong ? The guy cannot constantly run that power over mobs with the endurance cost of it and i really doubt Whirlwind ever was working on AVs or Monsters . So whats the big deal about it ?

To me , devs are engaged into a witch hunt and no one could guess til where itll go . Very sad .

:mad:

[Neeto]

hmmm well thats a great fix for PvE, but how about a fix on the PvP side where meleers lack the ability to chase down a WW range opponent??

ei: anyone can get Web Nade to stop opponents with hover, and many ATs and powersets already include a -fly attack. Super jumpers/Super speeders have to stop to shoot or attack and then there's some suppression. TP takes up too much end to exploit like whirlwind, and the animation time in tp puts them at risk still. TP foe, SS, and Fly can be made useless with Slow debuffs. But what counters WW+SS+CJ+SJ?

My Point? every travel power and pool powers such as TP foe, hover, CJ, hasten, acro, etc. have an inheret weakness except WW+ any travel.

Point #2: WW by itself is a great and fun power because the user fights with the advantage WW provides and a draw back to. He still can be hit and he can attack while moving. Great! no problem there. The problem begins when the user combines WW with another travel power (this is especially so with CJ, SJ , and SS).

Point #3: So many players already agree that WW needs to be changed in PvP; however, the devs are faced with two very different communities that use WW for differing purposes. PvEers use it for extra control, while in PvP, WW is used to gain extraordinary survivabilty and it almost invalidates entire melee ATs. But if the devs nerf WW by increasing its end cost or getting rid of WW's ability to shoot while running, the PvE community will get upset.

Solution: WW should not be abled to be used with other Travel Powers. PvEers seldom use it with another travel power since it drains to much end. I've only seen it used to impress people in PvE. In PvP a blaster or controller can circle around a melee AT as they shoot away without ever getting touched by the meleer. Squishy ATs also have a hard time locking down a WW user since the user would be out of range if he/she is in trouble, then come back when they can take advantage. WW+SJ is an Escape power that is always on unlike Pff or PS where the user cannot attack and has to deal with animation time. Basically it is very hard to lock down a WW user while the user can attack in safety .

What do you guys think of my solution???

[Celestial_Fury]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm well thats a great fix for PvE, but how about a fix on the PvP side where meleers lack the ability to chase down a WW range opponent??

ei: anyone can get Web Nade to stop opponents with hover, and many ATs and powersets already include a -fly attack. Super jumpers/Super speeders have to stop to shoot or attack and then there's some suppression. TP takes up too much end to exploit like whirlwind, and the animation time in tp puts them at risk still. TP foe, SS, and Fly can be made useless with Slow debuffs. But what counters WW+SS+CJ+SJ?

My Point? every travel power and pool powers such as TP foe, hover, CJ, hasten, acro, etc. have an inheret weakness except WW+ any travel.

Point #2: WW by itself is a great and fun power because the user fights with the advantage WW provides and a draw back to. He still can be hit and he can attack while moving. Great! no problem there. The problem begins when the user combines WW with another travel power (this is especially so with CJ, SJ , and SS).

Point #3: So many players already agree that WW needs to be changed in PvP; however, the devs are faced with two very different communities that use WW for differing purposes. PvEers use it for extra control, while in PvP, WW is used to gain extraordinary survivabilty and it almost invalidates entire melee ATs. But if the devs nerf WW by increasing its end cost or getting rid of WW's ability to shoot while running, the PvE community will get upset.

Solution: WW should not be abled to be used with other Travel Powers. PvEers seldom use it with another travel power since it drains to much end. I've only seen it used to impress people in PvE. In PvP a blaster or controller can circle around a melee AT as they shoot away without ever getting touched by the meleer. Squishy ATs also have a hard time locking down a WW user since the user would be out of range if he/she is in trouble, then come back when they can take advantage. WW+SJ is an Escape power that is always on unlike Pff or PS where the user cannot attack and has to deal with animation time. Basically it is very hard to lock down a WW user while the user can attack in safety .

What do you guys think of my solution???

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense.

[Great_Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, someone earlier mentioned team tp is a useless power. I use it all the time on one of my characters and no I won't say how or why. But it is FAR from useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this. Nothing says "Over-nerfing" like "not going to post my strategy because it will get removed".

This is yet another red-flag, but it either isn't seen or isn't important. Maybe we should use another flag color, for a change of pace? ;)

[Great_Scott]

The reason that Defenders have not been nerfed yet is that most player, most of the time, don't play them.

Once everyone is playing Defenders (look for this soon), then they will be adjusted.

Only the "Known" powers get nerfed. I have no idea if this is because not enough time is spent on Balancing (really, this is a bad thing), or if the Players are really THAT inventive.

I can say from personal experience that 2 hours with Hero Planner and good knowledge of the game will reveal many, many "exploits".

I don't understand how someone whose 40-hour-a-week job is "CoX", even if power balance isn't a major component of their job, doesn't know more than many players.

Let me guess, does WW still pre-emp power animation rooting? A major "balance" feature to blast sets? :)

[Antigonus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully disagree. I am harmed much less by an exploit than by a nerf. Impairing the fun of many for the sake of balancingthe few is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until the few become the many because of the exploit. Why do you think so many people take Air Superiority these days when it once was considered weak. Obviously the new ragdoll effects have opened up a few exploits that people are just starting to see. Once word gets out, a lot of people will be taking advantage. Curiously, I have seen more people with WW in the last few weeks than ever before. I thought it was just my imagination, but apparently there was a reason.

[ShaneBattle]

MMOs are the only large-scale software which even attempt to inform you of all changes. Nobody else even bothers, because they know it is an impossible task. Yet you guys expect perfection.

When's the last time your ISP released a note to you that told you they changed some software? Do you get mail from your telephone company? Your cable company? When you download the latest patch from Microsoft, how much of what it really does does it actually tell you?

Frankly you guys overreact to the fact that people are not perfect. No amount of double checking will guarantee that everything gets in the patch notes.

[nelosv]

How can you compare a MMO to a phone company ??
As long as I can phone, that they dont make me pay three times the price I dont give a damn if they added a cable between point A and point B...
But for a MMO I pay to enjoy playing, to build a character so I spend time doing so. If they change every single mechanic in the game and dont tell you, what will you do ? Their job to find it out ?
Maybe they should make the game like SWG and dont tell us, we will never notice.

[Shadbolt]

Poor Logic in this post.

As yes, I do expect that the service I pay for meets a standard of quality.

That fundemental changes are implemented and documentation is not properly updated, is actually unacceptable.

People make mistakes, I accept this, HOWEVER making the same mistake over and over and over and over indicates that either the activity is NOT a Mistake and is in fact accepted practice internally.

OR

That the practice of documentation of issues (Check the known issues list please and tell me that it is accurate based on the technical issues forums/petitions etc.)
and their repairs is not considered a priority nor is the informing of the customer considered a valued or proper practice.

In this last Patch, how many "Undocumented" changes were found?

I know of at least 2, that had major easily identifiable effects
(Knockdown/Knockback and Whirlwind) on the player base.

That these changes were "not listed" in the patch notes is an issue.

Moreover, considering that the current "Known" issues listed still has items several months old, that have not been adressed is a problem.

Additionally, according to the forums several long standing issue exhist which continue to be ignored

I.E. The Stunned Mob Bug.

So fundementally while a change to Whirlwind would seem fairly minor, and in fact it may be.

The issue becomes a question of "WHY" fix something which was not listed as an issue, when several KNOWN problems exhist and have plauged the game for a very long time?

I suspect it is because the Devs currently spend an enourmous amount of time playing/testing PVP, and issue arise in this area that they feel they need to "fix"

Fine and dandy, HOWEVER making a universal change to a game based on one aspect (PVP) without any regard to how this change will affect a fairly large percentage of the subscriber base and then "Fail" to document said change (repeatedly it seems, as this pracitce is fairly common from my reading on the boards) Is a BIG ISSUE.

And it ties to consumer satisfaction.

Honestly, If I had not received the 2 free months for COH/COV I am not sure i would be playing/paying.

In the scant time I have been a subscriber my BASIC play style has been altered three times, in a period of 76 days.

And thats just what I can figure out has changed, and does not count the basic fundemntal Quality of Life issues that are suffered.

I.E. Randomly being punted from my SG base, after having purchased COV just to enter said base.
Which is a documented and know issue, unlike the ones which were change.

So color me confused as to why we need to just suck it up and deal with it, or accept yet another

"Ooops, sorry I forgot to write that down while I was recoding the game"

Rant Off.

[Asberdies]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm well thats a great fix for PvE, but how about a fix on the PvP side where meleers lack the ability to chase down a WW range opponent??

ei: anyone can get Web Nade to stop opponents with hover, and many ATs and powersets already include a -fly attack. Super jumpers/Super speeders have to stop to shoot or attack and then there's some suppression. TP takes up too much end to exploit like whirlwind, and the animation time in tp puts them at risk still. TP foe, SS, and Fly can be made useless with Slow debuffs. But what counters WW+SS+CJ+SJ?

My Point? every travel power and pool powers such as TP foe, hover, CJ, hasten, acro, etc. have an inheret weakness except WW+ any travel.

Point #2: WW by itself is a great and fun power because the user fights with the advantage WW provides and a draw back to. He still can be hit and he can attack while moving. Great! no problem there. The problem begins when the user combines WW with another travel power (this is especially so with CJ, SJ , and SS).

Point #3: So many players already agree that WW needs to be changed in PvP; however, the devs are faced with two very different communities that use WW for differing purposes. PvEers use it for extra control, while in PvP, WW is used to gain extraordinary survivabilty and it almost invalidates entire melee ATs. But if the devs nerf WW by increasing its end cost or getting rid of WW's ability to shoot while running, the PvE community will get upset.

Solution: WW should not be abled to be used with other Travel Powers. PvEers seldom use it with another travel power since it drains to much end. I've only seen it used to impress people in PvE. In PvP a blaster or controller can circle around a melee AT as they shoot away without ever getting touched by the meleer. Squishy ATs also have a hard time locking down a WW user since the user would be out of range if he/she is in trouble, then come back when they can take advantage. WW+SJ is an Escape power that is always on unlike Pff or PS where the user cannot attack and has to deal with animation time. Basically it is very hard to lock down a WW user while the user can attack in safety .

What do you guys think of my solution???

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, i agree with the point made. For the solution look like a good one.
This power is broken especialy for pvp. It enable poeple to use power without stoping. And as far as i know, using a broken power to have an advandage over something is called an exploit.
But if you look at pvp fights, at least 80% of defender and controller use this power because it enable them to use their powers without stopping at all, negating completly melee at, enable them to pursue or being pursued and using power without losing any distance etc...

[Neeto]

FYI, most of us are not saying it's an exploit. Many of us, through experience and fact, believe it is overpowered as it is now in PvP.

[Shadbolt]

It being over powered in PVP caused Cryptic to make a change that spanked all of its PVE usage.

Same with Knockback, travel supression etc.

They keep hosing the entire game to balance PVP, and if all COx was PVP then that may be okay.

It's hard to swallow for us PVE types.