Defense and Scaling

[Statesman_NA]

Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[Dream_Crusher]

WOW THATS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how'd ya do it if you don't mind me asking

[Happy_Thoughts]

Wow, that's certainly a nice change!

Is that strictly for +defense powers, or will -accuracy powers be included in this also?

EDIT: Also, under the new system, if you're fighting a +6, will you have the defense value as if you were fighting a +1 today, or is there going to be a steep defense dropoff between +5 and +6 enemies?

[Flaming1]

<boggle>

[Talesin]

All I can say is thank you. This will go a long way to solving the inherent problems with defensive sets and mobs of higher level.

[Tamerlane]

By extension, will defense inspirations also work the same way?

Based on the question below...will all defense work this way? All defense to include primary or secondary powers, self and team buffs, and inspirations. Or is this change targetted to specific forms of defense?

[Flaming1]

States?

Force Fields are affected by this well, right?

I think mebbe I'm a little too dazed to really get that, ATM.

[MowDownJoe]

WOW. WOW. WOW.

*grabs a coin*
Heads, I roll up a Stone Armor Brute. Tails, EA.

*flip*

[Crimson_Shroud]

Indeed. I may actually want to get my ice tank involved in teams now (16.5 levels solo so far).

[Test_Rat]

What about To hit debuffers :)

I assume no change for them, even though ED gutted thier ability.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
By extension, will defense inspirations also work the same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to take a guess and say that the answer will be no.

And that's the way I believe it should be. Part of the problem with the defense-based ATs has been that their core protections have been overshadowed by practically everything else in the game. Inspirations alone were more effective than most of the primaries. That's not fair to the ATs in question.

I believe a more interesting and useful query would be whether or not defense buffs in other powers, such as Weave/Combat Jumping/Hover, or bubbles, will be granted similar scaling. With stackable defenses, that would allow defense-based ATs to remain relevant while also providing ATs with little or no defense some measure of protection.

[Jade_Dragon]

Oh, wow. That was so fast... I wasn't expecting it anywhere near this soon.

Damage Resistance shouldn't need an adjustment because by definition Damage Resistance scales to level. If you have 30% resistance, you take 70% of the damage, it doesn't matter if you foe is a white con, a red con, or a green con. Same goes with To Hit Debuffs I think, although I am not as sure about that. (To Hit Debuffs follow different rules than Def Buffs)

I suspect some adjustment may still be needed, as mixed sets such as Stone and Invulnerability will get a boost. But I'm just happy for my SR and FF characters...

(Oops, misunderstood, I thought were were talking about RESISTANCE Inspirations. I don't know whether Inspirations will be effected or not, but I'd hope all Archetypes ARE)

[Tamerlane]

You won't get any argument from me on the need for the defensive sets to get some help and this looks like a good change. But I am curious as to whether mechanics are in place to distinguish between a defense value that has been gained through your secondary, through your primary, as a result of an inspiration, or a result of a team buff. If defense values are simply ranged, melee, and AoE, this would at first glace appear to be quite a sweeping change that will affect virtually every AT in the game. If you take into consideration the pool powers that were mentioned, it does indeed affect every AT in the game.

But I do agree with you in that defensive sets need some help and this will definitely improve things. If they managed to cut out the same "boost" for all the other stuff, I won't shed a tear.

[Optimator]

ZOMG!!!!!11

Some good changes announced yesterday, and now this?

*Explodes from the awesomeness of it all*

[Jade_Dragon]

This may be wishful thinking, but Statesman said, "This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense." The converse of that would be that it DOES have effect on a player that has ANY form of Defense. Be it Power Pool, buff placed on him by a teammate, SR Secondary, FF Primary or Inspiration.

As I said above, this could be an overall buff to defense (as a general term) which may require some "balancing". Even so, I think we can all say that after I6 we need some buffing. :)

[ReboValence]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

...oh wait...

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
we need some buffing. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is anyone else suddenly hearing Pauly Shore chanting, "B-b-b-b-buff the wood, buff the wood!" in their head?

>.>

<.<

-_-

STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!

[ATRAtwo]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

...Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level....

[/ QUOTE ]

"And The GRecluserinch looked down upon Paraville, to see the sorrow of Defensive
Heroes whose scaling he'd never given. To his surprise, the Defensive Heroes came
out and fought crime anyways. Villains and Villainesses, Felons and Felonas, they
arrested them all!

And the more The GRecluserinch watched, he realized that Defensive Heroes weren't
Heroic only because of Defensive Prowess, but because they truly cared about the
Spirit of Crime-Fighting!

Moved to tears, The GRecluserinch cracked his whip on the poor lizard's whipmarked
back, and shouted, 'Mush! Mush! Back to Paraville!' and old Geko moved his legs
as fast as he could, and minutes later the sleigh tipped forward and the
GRecluserinch, with Geko too, was sliding towards Paraville!

As GRecluserinch slid amongst the Defensive Heroes, tossing gifts of Defensive
Scaling to them...

his heart *grew three sizes* that day!"

And that, young reader, is the story of...

How the GRecluserinch Stole Crime-Fighting.

[newchemicals]

Sounds good on paper.

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

[_UBV_]

Awesome change! :D

[ QUOTE ]
This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wondering if you can clarify this...
Is this change for all ATs with defense or only certain powersets?
Do defense buffs get this change?
Do Inspirations get this?
Do Power Pools?

[Dracula_X]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

This only effect PvE or PvP as well?

[Arctic_Tempest]

I'm going to go mad waiting for I7 now... awesome change. Thanks! :cool:

[HeroVorkk]

Is it safe to assume this also applies to CoV defensive sets?

Stalker Ninjitsu secondary, for example.

[Sonic_Blade]

AWSOME! Thanks states!

<_<

>_>

Another slice of pie?

~~~~~~~~~~~
\_____________/ <----- More pie :D

[BellaStrega]

I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. :)

[Major_Force]

My Tank thanks you.

and I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, BUUUUTTTT....

does this mean Mobs(bosses) that use defense will be more difficult?

[MelodiousFunk]

Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?

Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[Molten_Minotaur]

Was Statesman visited by the three ghosts of CoH over the holidays?

The Ghost of CoH Past
The Ghost of CoH Present
The Ghost of CoH Future

[Galactiman]

So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half? :p

[Starsman]

So basicaly, if i have 20% (40% of a minnions acc) def against minnions it will translate to 30% (40% of an even AV's acc) against an even AV?

And this also means that the def will scale equally all the way to +5 enemies?

I dont see who would do this but still, how will that translate to +6 enemies? is it an imediate step down to nullified Def or is it a gradual decreses in effectiveness after +5 levels?

Will this apply to ANY power in the game that grants DEF?

What about -acc that is basicaly inverted def? Those debuffs also have a similar issue where not only are they mitigated by levels, but the acc bonuses of the higher level enemy on top of the mitigation makes them even worse... will this somehow also help these acc debuff powers?

Finally, how does this affects +acc? will it only work off the base of the enemy's acc, or will it work off the final enemy Acc at the moment of attack? If an enemy minnion is buffed to 60 acc somehow, will this translate to 24% def?

Is the formula in the end:

(ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)?

Would this also mean that Def will become less powerful against green enemies than it used to be (not an issue to anyone I bet though)?

[Aaron123]

WOOOT! It just keeps getting better and better! Wonder if there'll be another buff tomorrow, eh? :p Wouldn't get my hopes up, though.

Viewtiful Shmoe's verdict: Henshin a-go-go, baby! *Thumbs up*

[Tannim222]

The problem is that defense sets were at more risk vs higher level / con mobs when compared to resist sets.

[XeroShadow]

[ QUOTE ]
I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

[gSOLO]

;slapreact

My Ice Tank is looking forward to I7!

[Sparky_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?

Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not terribly. Consider that a +5 foe is still going to be able to do more damage per hit than an even con. They might each have only a 40% chance of connecting, but that 40% is going to be more risky with the +5 strength than with the even con. Thus higher level foes will still be riskier...

The question, however, is how this affects base to-hit chances. Will the +5 foes have an equal to hit chance as a -5 foe? Or do the base to-hit marks remain as they are, just the defense power bonus itself remains constant within that range (which is rather what I expect).

Y'know.. I really hate numbers, but I think it's going to be necessary for this one.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very interesting. I'm curious, though, as to how this will work exactly. Since this pertains to everyone who has defense, the implication is that even if all you have is hover, you will be effectively immune from the scaling tohits of higher level foes. Something sounds amiss there in terms of how the bonus will work. Its probably very important to define what you mean exactly by "your defense powers will work equally well..." If my SR scrapper has 25% defense, she mitigates about half the hits of a minion, with base 50% tohit. Does this mean that against a +1 minion, net overall tohit will remain 25% (i.e. the tohit bonus is ignored), or does that mean my defense scales up to about 27.5% (to be about half of the new tohit of about 55%), or something else entirely? Could it be that the purple patch has been amended to swap tohit bonuses for accuracy bonuses, at least out to +5? That would certainly work.

Are there any plans to extend this to the tohit bonuses of LTs, Bosses, and AVs? AVs, after all, have a +25% tohit relative to minions, which is effectively erasing SR defenses completely. They are not, in general, completely unresistable.


Also, the really big thing was tohit buffs, like player tohit buffs in PvP, and insane tohit buffs like DE Quartz Eminators. Will this be extended to include these, or is a completely different change coming to address these?


Been a long time waiting on this one, States; thanks for continuing to look for a solution, and I'm looking forward to picking it apart real soon :D

[LunaShadow]

I... just don't know what to say. I mean... wow... just... wow.

[Mr_Pierce]

HOLY TESTICLE BUFF BATMAN!!!

Must...remain...calm...

Mustn't get overly excited...

I will remain calm until I know the specifics of this supposed..."buff"

I am new to this anti-nerf word, but I shall give it a try :p

Thanks States!!! :D

[Balanced]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?

Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it means some of the greater risk they're currently facing will be mitigated. Higher-level mobs will still do more damage to defense-based characters when they connect, so they're still more dangerous than even-level mobs. They just won't hit as often as they do now.

[Gangbreaker]

Does this only apply to tankers and SR Scrappers, or do Stalkers get ths benefit too?

[So_Evil]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?

Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, when you do get hit it will be for a lot more from a +5 then an even level mob. but now you will actuall have a shot in hell of avoiding enough hits to take someone down first

[Celtic_NA]

Be still my heart...

Oh [censored] it. STATESMAN! LET ME HAVE YOUR BABIES! Really *pulls out a gun*, I mean it...

[Obsidius]

To reitterate my post here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=4512699&page=0&view=& sb=5&o=&vc=1):

Kind of raises more questions actually.

I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...

(...) perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

[SuckerPunch]

Holy crap, that might be the best news.

EVER! :D

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
To reitterate my post here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=4512699&page=0&view=& sb=5&o=&vc=1):

Kind of raises more questions actually.

I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...

And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

[/ QUOTE ]

Scaling means at least two different things within the context of talking about tanks. Invincibility is scaling defense, but it scales with number of foes. In this case, we're talking about the fact higher level villains have higher base tohit, which is effectively an unavoidable defense debuff. That lack of scaling with level has serious consequences for any AT that relies on defense, such as Ice tanks and SR scrappers.

[Luminara]

[ QUOTE ]
And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because their role is offensive, and it's difficult to be offensive when you're dead.

Well, unless you're dead and stinky.

[SpawnLOD]

All I can Say Is Wow! One of the few games where the Devs actually listened to the community and did something about it.

[Mieux]

Hmmm...

I haven't played a low level /SR for a couple of months, so at low levels, this makes a difference. But at higher levels, with SO's...i'm fighting on Invinc...without insp. If you allow my defense to work this good against +5's....that's just too good, imo.

This can't be motivated by a desire to reduce slots because /SR just isn't slot intensive IMO.

This won't let us reduce powers taken, because the passives give us a different layer of defense which works when +DEF doesn't.

Have you guys really play tested this?

I have to say, I don't think we need this at all. I'd much rather you give us +RES to Psi/Toxic in the passives or some way to counter the massive accuracy in things like Aim or Rage (3/3 Rage just clowns a fully ED slotted /SR in PvP...and I mean the passives too, but not with Elude).

I'd also prefer you give us some more utility as opposed to flat defense.

Again, at low levels, this is a bigger deal, but at high levels, I can already fight +5 minions in PI..all I needed was FA. I really really think this should be reexamined because it's really going to trivialize Invinc missions if they don't hit me any better than even level minions.

And I have to ask, won't /SR out perform other sets if we have the same defense against +5's?!?

I guess this will make Bubblers the new FoTM....or does it apply to bubbles?

my $.10

EDIT:
Well, I guess we'll have to see just how this is implemented. I can understand if this is more needed for other defensive sets in PvE....but I'm concerned for /sr still finding a challenge in PvE.

Devs, you might consider scaling this back as we level up or something. I just can't imagine dodging +5's like they were even level minions. Very surprising.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]
Scaling means at least two different things within the context of talking about tanks. Invincibility is scaling defense, but it scales with number of foes. In this case, we're talking about the fact higher level villains have higher base tohit, which is effectively an unavoidable defense debuff. That lack of scaling with level has serious consequences for any AT that relies on defense, such as Ice tanks and SR scrappers.

[/ QUOTE ]

That puts it in a better context. Thanks for the clarification. In that light, it must be that the role of DEF in general will be changing.

But to paraphrase KaliMagdalene, I can't wait to see HOW it's done...

Didn't mean to sound flamy, just came out wrong :(

[LordGaronvach]

My EA brute is overjoyed, to say the least.

[StarkRavingMad2]

[ QUOTE ]
Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Trying to wrap my mind around this.

Looks like I'm not the only one who needs two points of clarification ...

1. Does this affect ALL Defense powers, including power pools and buffs?

2. Judging by the wording, I'm guessing the answer to this is No, but: Will this affect inspirations?

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet thats just it.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]


That puts it in a better context. Thanks for the clarification. In that light, it must be that the role of DEF in general will be changing.

But to quote KaliMagdalene, I can't wait to see HOW it's done...

[/ QUOTE ]

I hesitate to speculate much at all without elaboration.

I think Arcanaville is on the right track, though.

[Madam_Enigma]

[ QUOTE ]
To reitterate my post here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=4512699&page=0&view=& sb=5&o=&vc=1):

Kind of raises more questions actually.

I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...

And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why scrappers? Ok, spiderman would be considered a SR scrapper right? He's equaly able to dodge that cosmicly powered being as he is the street punks. If the enemy is way faster then him he's gonna get splatted, but even then he gets hit far less then most heroes.

Iceman would be what, an ice blaster or ice tank? I'd say ice tank since he becomes living ice. He's hit, but most times it just does nothing to him (consider this a miss).

Why shouldn't the Super Reflexes scrapper get scaleing defence too? Our overall defence is lower then an ice tanks defence right? +0 minions are hitting me about 24% of the time due to my increadable agility... but a +2 minion is hitting me 48% of the time? Now I don't care too much about PvP, I do it but don't care. In PvE I've just got to the shadow shard. It's bad enough those eyeballs rip me a new one all the time, the many +2 minions and non-eyeball bosses shouldn't always be ripping me apart as well.

[Irontiger]

Wow. Yesterday was great news and today it gets even better. Man this is so good I need a smoke. Any one else need a smoke?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Knowing all things must come with a price, does this mean that defense inspirations will be reduced to an equitable level with their damage resistance brothers?

Namely, reduced to 10/20/30? Please?

[Great_Scott]

A Great Change. I'm looking forward to see what else is in Issue 7.

Thanks, States!
-> Scott.

[Obsidius]

I'm going to remove that unintentionally inflamatory part of my previous post. The vernacular was all wrong, and I apologize.

On another note, I'm waiting to see how this works before I start getting too excited about this. Hopefully, it will be what most of the Tank community has been looking for.

[Markus]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

before you guys get all excited, remember that 0 defence to even level minions and 0 defence to +5 fits into his discription.

I will withold my praise until I see it implemented.

[Biostem]

But higher level foes have a greater chance to hit just as higher levels foe hit for more damage.

If a defense power gave you 10% defense, was that 10% only applicable to even-con enemies? Did it give less defense versus higher-con enemies, on top of their already increased chance to hit? Maybe I'm not understanding...

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

And I have to ask, won't /SR out perform other sets if we have the same defense against +5's?!?


[/ QUOTE ]

Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?

Since the devs have stated that they balanced defense and resistance based on their performance against even level minions, it only makes logical sense that defense should remain just as effective against higher level villains if the intent is to keep them balanced in higher level settings, particularly big teams and higher slider missions. If anything, this needs to be extended to other areas of scaling tohit, like rank.

If SR becomes overpowered with this change, then in effect *everyone* is, but even so, at least everyone will have the same basic performance across the normal range of villains you're likely to see from heroic solo missions to 8 person invincible missions - minus the LTs, Bosses, and AVs that pop up in those missions, for which SR will still tend to underperform (assuming you believe the devs when they say that the sets are balanced at the even level minion point).

A lot hinges, though, on what is meant by "same defense" as I indicated in my previous post. Once we have a better handle on how that was implemented, we'll have a better handle on calculating what the net effect is, to see if its balanced or not.

My own testing shows that in particular SR and invuln are surprisingly balanced in mitigation if you restrict yourself to looking at only even level minions, which was presumably always the devs goal. You could make an argument both ways at this point. Its the level and rank tohit buffs that primarily unbalance the two in PvE: if this defense scaling effect correctly nullifies those tohit buffs in a proportional way, that would bring all four scrapper secondaries closer in mitigation than they have ever been (although, I should add the disclaimer that I'm talking about comparing the absolute best SR can do, verses only pretty darned good invuln and regen builds, not their absolute best effort).

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to remove that unintentionally inflamatory part of my previous post. The vernacular was all wrong, and I apologize.

On another note, I'm waiting to see how this works before I start getting too excited about this. Hopefully, it will be what most of the Tank community has been looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

I'll edit my response, because I was overly reactionary.

[Aeryn_NA]

Awesome! - Thanks States. /EA is in scope too, right?

[TheDeadEyes]

MOOOOOOOOOOD!! :D

[Fabled_Facet]

It shouldn't be "equal".

Set a "rate" to reduce foes lv acc buff will be much better.


"equal" is too powreful.


But I still have to say, "this is a good idea". :cool:

[makerian]

So good to hear some promising news.

I hope this means that my Force Fielders have a chance at having useful powers again.

So here are some preliminary questions, some already mentioned above.

1. Do Def+ inspirations work the same way?

2. What happens after 5+ levels? How does defense degrade from there? Is it based on the old defense scales players have predicted?

3. Does Def+ still increase for -1 and lower mobs?

4. Do Team and non-team buffs have the same Def calculations that you are referring to in this change? E.g. Force Field Insulation and Deflection shield.

5. Have all Def powers been accounted for in the game on the Hero and Villain side? Including PB's/WS's?

6. What about PvP? Is it fully implemented there? In particular, what about being hit with a Def Debuff power when fighting critters nearby? How does Def scale then?

7. Are you all pretty confident that the current standards for Def values in the powers are fine with this change? Most of the values seemed too low, but this change might make Def sets viable now. I'd bet many of us are fearing the nerf coming down the road once you find that, in fact, Def sets don't get crazy damage (if that's possible even with these changes).

8. Does this mean that critter Def also works the same way? E.g. do AVs/Hamidon/Mitos/other critters that have Def armors have the same scaling changes or is it just for players?

I'm sure there are more problems that others will spot, but as always, inquiring players want to know. :)

[BlueWrecker]

OK, this is damned cool.

My wife is probably going to squeel with joy when I tell her this, since she loves her MA/SR scrapper.

Please, pretty please, tell me this applies to to-hit debuffs and force fields as well? I'll squeel as well for my DDD and my poor lamented FF defender.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]

It shouldn't be "equal".

Set a "rate" to reduce foes lv acc buff will be much better.


"equal" is too powreful.


But I still have to say, "this is a good idea". :cool:

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that we should wait for actual testing to decide whether it's too powerful or not powerful enough.

[Fatal_Night]

This is truely good news. No, actually great news. But it really does need some more explanation as to the specifics of how it is going to be accomplished. ***Sentence deleted due to Statesman stateting differently in a different post***

Also, I hope there is plenty of time to test these changes as a change like this could easily (in my uninformed opinion) introduce new broken code that was previously working. I could be wrong, I'm not a programmer, but it needs tested greatly. I wholeheartedly volunteer my ice/fire tank's time to test this out once it hits test. :D

[Lohenien]

So explain how exactly this works for us if you would. Are all villians up to +5 only given a chance to hit of 50% ?? Or something else?

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played a low level /SR for a couple of months, so at low levels, this makes a difference. But at higher levels, with SO's...i'm fighting on Invinc...without insp. If you allow my defense to work this good against +5's....that's just too good, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, and maybe not.

Right now Resist can go all the way to 90%, and if you found an enemy that was 50 levels higher than you, his damage would still be mitigated to only 10% of what it was meant to be. Off course, less than 10% of that damage may be needed to one shoot you.

With this, its the same. Only diference is, once the enemy hits, it will do a looot of damage.

With this change, if done with the formula i posted a few pages ago, it will mean that a stone tankeer will get a true equivalent of 69.5 smash/lethal resist with the combination of resistance and defense.

[Biostem]

[ QUOTE ]
Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly. Damage resistance prevents X% of incoming damage, but that damage is a heck of a lot greater from a +5 than it is from a +0. Similarly, regeneration is only good if the rate of incoming damage is equal to or less than your regen rate. Again, higher level enemies do more damage...

I do agree that if a power gives you +X% defense, it should always give +X% defense, however, higher level enemies should have a greater chance of hitting you. So if an even con minin has a 50% chance to hit, a +1 should have like 52% chance to hit, or something...

[Narcissus]

I doubt accuracy debuffs will be affected at all. Why? Because they *arguably* don't need it.

ALL +defense abilities/sets were hit by the Global Defense Reduction. Although mob tohit values were lowered, it still translated into a direct reduction in player effectiveness.

Tohit values WERE NOT TOUCHED, and if anything were made much stronger by the overall reduction to mob tohit numbers.

On topic: This is a great change to balance out defense based powers. But like others I am curious: how will this change affect +6 mobs? Will this change move over to CoV and other CoX powersets like Cold Domination and Force Fields?

[ProcessedMeatMan]

I think this is great news, but I'm a naturally pessimistic person. So, true to form, I must ask: What about PvP?
This seems like a purely PvE change, considering the nature of what was described.
As far as PvP is concerned though, Defense still lacks, primarily because of the abundance of ToHit modifiers in the game and how it all figures into the ToHit equation.

PvP lvl 30 and below is right where it should be as far as Def is concerned (IMO). In Warburg (lvl 38) and upper tier Arena matches though, Defense is a joke unless you have Elude, Overload or that Ninjitsu lvl 38 power maxed out with Defense SOs.

While I certainly appreciate the improvement to the PvE game, I certainly hope the PvP aspect is still being looked at.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Wait a min.... could they simply be adjusting the purple patch so that there is no adjustment to accuracy/tohit for higher/lower level enemies until after +5 or lower than -5?

I can't wrap my brain around this at all.

[mgerber]

[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Halleleujah.

Will this also benefit Force Field?

[Mieux]

[ QUOTE ]
You could make an argument both ways at this point. Its the level and rank tohit buffs that primarily unbalance the two in PvE: if this defense scaling effect correctly nullifies those tohit buffs in a proportional way, that would bring all four scrapper secondaries closer in mitigation than they have ever been

[/ QUOTE ] Well, here's my quandary. I understand that +RES scales better. But on straight math does the negation of +Rank perserve the balance? Oddly enough, this is a situation where I think a simulation is very applicable and informative.

I also thought that the increased damage kind of offset the fact that resistance scaled better..but again...the straight math would prove or disprove this.

Lastly, my concern is more about the nature of the fix. In the past, where the devs have started buffing sets, we start getting power inflation and then ultimately nerfs. Why not just add unresistable damage to +Rank so that it is negated. SO'd teams are already back to missions on Invinc...why would you make it any easier for us?

[ QUOTE ]
If SR becomes overpowered with this change, then in effect *everyone* is

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I don't know about "everyone" but yeah, a lot of sets are a going to be blasting through Invinc missions....like a laser scalpel through soft cheese.

As far as /regen, I thought the +DMG from +Rank was essentially a counter to /regen? They are also victimized by the +acc from +Rank. Big difference between a mob with a 65 % acc versus one with a 95%, which is essentially the diff between a +0 boss and a +5 boss against a /regen. I don't see how a /regen will compete if that same +5 is hitting with only 65% acc?

I won't speak to any other sets, but do you honestly think /SR in particular needs this type of boost from a strictly PvE-challenge perspective? As I said in my other post, I got FA at 41...went to PI..and found I was easily beating down groups of +5 minions and Lt's with lvl 40 enhance, no inspirations, and no Elude. Now maybe I have better than average build, but good grief, if you reduce +5's to hitting me like +0's , I'm going to be bored out of my mind.


I guess we really need to see how this is done.
EDIT:
Let me make a point directly to the devs:

You nerfed Sappers
You nerfed Quicksand
You nerfed DE eminators
You nerfed Bosses
You nerfed AV's

This game is already so easy, I don't understand why you need to make it easier. Even more so, if you are going to give us a boost, at least make it something that requires a decisions or some active effort.

I agree that players have to generally feel like the game is balanced. Maybe there used to be a huge advantage for resistance sets...maybe in specific cases there still are. If so, I would ask the devs to use scalpel and not a shotgun to fix those things.

I'm not saying DoooooOOOOOOooooooM!!!!!, but hey...it's fun when it's a struggle against things that should be out of our league.

[Tanzier]

This is too awesome .. Ice tank here I come.

[Obsidius]

No worries, you and Mieux are entirely correct that Tanks = DEF is an old mentality, and not the subject of this thread.

Now I'm just afraid that I might have put people OT :confused:

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly. Damage resistance prevents X% of incoming damage, but that damage is a heck of a lot greater from a +5 than it is from a +0. Similarly, regeneration is only good if the rate of incoming damage is equal to or less than your regen rate. Again, higher level enemies do more damage...


[/ QUOTE ]

A +5 hits a defense set a heck of a lot harder also. If there was no tohit bonus for level at all, then a +1 that hits about 10% harder would do 10% more damage to a defense set on average, and 10% more damage to a resistance set on average. We'd calculate the net mitigation of the resistance set to be the same as before, and the net mitigation of the defense set to be the same as before. That's what's means when we say resistance scales. Its not that resistance sets take the same amount of damage from a +5 as a +0, its that the percentage amount of damage it resists is the same. Similarly, without the tohit increase, a defensive set would deflect, or avoid, the same fraction of attacks for +0 as +5, which would mean that defense was just as effective. A +5 would still be more dangerous, because it would hit harder, but it would hit both defensive sets and resistive sets equally harder.


[ QUOTE ]

I do agree that if a power gives you +X% defense, it should always give +X% defense, however, higher level enemies should have a greater chance of hitting you. So if an even con minin has a 50% chance to hit, a +1 should have like 52% chance to hit, or something...


[/ QUOTE ]

There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.

[EvilRyu]

Hell has frozen over officially. Now I can unretire my SR scrapper and play my stalker more effectively. Will this apply to stalkers, mastermind ninja pets too?

[Mr_Right]

*drags out a little crate onto the stage in the dark auditorium. A spot light clicks on and Lil_Miss is shown to be standing on it in the "em research" position*

My children! Soon, our day will come!

*someone in the back: Amen!*

I have seen this day coming! The day where Defense Based sets are finnally placed on relatively equal footing with resistance based sets! Can I get an Amen?

*someone in the back: Amen!*

Repent, all ye who scorned the Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers! For the end of days is neigh!

*someone in the back: Amen!*

*glances up as the spot light clicks off. Some shuffling is seen in the darkness and the spot light clicks back on, this time with a red tint. The Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse are standing, two on each side of Lil_Miss*

What the...

*Pestilance: We just got a call that Statesman's put down the Nerf bat and started buffing things left and right... this the place?*

Uhh...

>.>
<.<

No no, you want to head over to WoW...

[Fraktal]

[ QUOTE ]

There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.

[/ QUOTE ]

And by this Arcana means that the equation for to hit is something like (leaving out the MINMAX but remember you can never break the 5%-95% barrier):

Chance to hit = (BaseToHit + BuffToHit - DebuffToHit - Def) * (BaseAcc + EnhancedAcc)

So Arcana's saying... take the NPC level buff out of BaseToHit and give it to BaseAcc. Plug in some numbers and you'll see what Arc's talking about.

F

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
No worries, you and Mieux are entirely correct that Tanks = DEF is an old mentality, and not the subject of this thread.

Now I'm just afraid that I might have put people OT :confused:

[/ QUOTE ]

I baleeted my post.

And topicality seems to be maintained, so all is good.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as /regen, I thought the +DMG from +Rank was essentially a counter to /regen? They are also victimized by the +acc from +Rank. Big difference between a mob with a 65 % acc versus one with a 95%, which is essentially the diff between a +0 boss and a +5 boss against a /regen. I don't see how a /regen will compete if that same +5 is hitting with only 65% acc?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how the devs are going to implement this, but I offer some possible options in my OP. But you're absolutely right that if SRs literally see *zero* accuracy increase from +0 to +5, but everyone else does, then the balance swings to SR, because now instead of a tohit buff that hits SR harder than everyone else, now we'd have a tohit buff that only hits everyone else.

However, the key is the wording of defense "working as well" as before. Strictly speaking, the measure of how well defense works is how much damage it mitigates, in percentage terms. For defense to be working "as well as before" its *percentage* mitigation should remain the same. If the devs have done that, then in actual fact, +5s will hit SR more often than +0s, but just in a manner proportional to how much more often they tend to hit non-defensive sets. If a +0 has base 50% tohit, and a +5 has about 75% tohit (its a bit smaller than that), then the +5 is hitting 50% more often than the +0. For an SR scrapper with 25% defense, net tohit of a +0 is 25%. a +5 "should" hit the SR scrapper 37.5% of the time, about 50% more often. *That* would be balanced (which is why I keep harping on using accuracy buffs to boost higher level and higher rank villains: thats exactly how they work).


Regen is incredibly sticky: there is no direct formula that says "X defense = Y regen" or anything remotely close. How this affects regen would be more complex if regen is changing, but it appears it isn't. Its really a question of how this swings the balance point between SR and regen for higher level foes, which is tricky, and highly dependent on how they elected to implement this. But this much is certain: the way regeneration works pretty much guarantees that low levels of even con minions are never a serious threat to regen. It has to do with how regen currently scales: it doesn't. So it has to be very strong against the very weak given the current limitations of the game engine. It would be almost like if the devs had to give us perma-elude to deal with heroic missions, because the boss at the end always had base 100% tohit. That's regen. Scaling regen is a much more complex problem than fixing the scaling of defense. But since the defense problem is that defense didn't scale *up*, that was the problem more people complained about: admittedly, few regens are likely to complain about their regeneration not scaling *down* correctly to even level minions.

[MrYukon]

interesting
if this works as i think it may....
Ice armor and Super reflexes could become uber/FoTM
....
...
..
.
Isn't that one of the signs of the apocalyse?

[Starsman]

OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.

It is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs.

You can find the Excel file here (http://www.geocities.com/hlj16/PosibleDefChange.xls.zip)

You will notice it wont mean that you will floor a lt as easily as an AV with this formula, but they do get close with the same number (an AV gets to 7.6 acc with a 45% def)

[Mieux]

[ QUOTE ]
If the devs have done that, then in actual fact, +5s will hit SR more often than +0s, but just in a manner proportional to how much more often they tend to hit non-defensive sets.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, as I and others and yourself have said, it really depends on what they are truly talking about. Based on the OP statement, it sounds like we'll have the same 50% mitigation against +5's as we do +0's.

[ QUOTE ]
If a +0 has base 50% tohit...

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. This seems to be the most plausible approach/implementation of what States is saying and be a much more palatable benefit than the one I had initially inferred.

[Tamerlane]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am "cautiously optimistic" to use a Greenspan phrase. I have a lot of questions and, like your first comment, I also am anxious to see some details. With luck, Statesman will come back sometime before end of day tomorrow with a little clarification but this seems like a fairly broad change -- at least going by only what is in his post.

If implented with a very narrow focus, it could make defensive sets more attractive. If it applies to all defensive powers, it additionaly makes pools like Stealth and Fighting very attractive.

Under one scenario, I see sets that appear weak vs. higher level foes getting buffed. Under another scenario, I can see (vs. +con foes) combining defense and resistance (or mitigation in the case of Regen) to a degree that may put us back in the general range of effectiveness we saw in I4. But it is really tough to speculate and a lot more details are needed.

[Sgt_Liberty]

[ QUOTE ]
I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Paging Positron, the Powers Systems Wizard and resident Tron Look-Alike-Costume Contest winner.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

While I applaud this whole-heartedly, this doesn't fix AVs three shotting my EA brute. Same level, but just high enough base accuracy kicks my heiney left and right.

Now *if* that gets fixed, I'd want to see Defense/Accuracy inspirations revisited.

[Obsidius]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Concurred.

Beleeted, LOL ;)

[Lohenien]

" For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. "

Umm this change means this : Im a blaster. I go fight a +5 boss with a 95% chance to hit me (its more than that but clmaped a5% so 95 works when not considering debuffs). I die. Now I turn on combat jumping, and that boss has a 57.5% chance to hit me instead of the 95%.

this change would be a stealth buff to defense powers ( in the case of combat jumping vs 95% to hit the buff is 35%compared to 2.5%).

If this change is going to happen, all mobs within the +5 range should have a 50% chance to hit ANY player , not just thsoe with +DEF, unless your intending to do this.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet thats just it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm guessing they are revoking the +/- scaling of mobs accuracy up to +5/-5. So no more double dinging accuracy *and* damage.

I've held the theory for quite a while that accuracy is directly affected by the purple patch. So while you take a 10% hit on your base accuracy at +1 level, mobs got a 10% bonus at +1.

+2 was +25%, +3 was +40% and +4 about +55%. (Barebrained numbers, BTW. Don't quote them.) +55% on minion accuracy (50%*1.55=77.5% or AV accuracy.)

Now take AV/Rulari accuracy and do the same. 75%*1.55=116.25%.

Subtract defense straight from both numbers and you realize why defense *really* doesn't scale well. You go from about 10-20% minion accuracy to about 30-40% at 140% damage. Basically doubling to tripling how often you get hit for half again as much damage.

[Starsman]

If the level diference bonus was removed, then everyone would be affected. States clearly noted how this will only affect players with def.

If anyone with just 1% def triggered this sort of selective application of level acc bonus, it would also make it all very unbalanced, as 1% would mean WAY more thanjust 1% so i doubt that either.

Check my post previous to this one to see what my actual theory is.

[Lohenien]

" it is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs. "

States didnt say much about PVP - and rightfully so because it requires a potentially alternate solution.

This change has been stated to effect PVE - leave PVP out of it ( yes i know the +DEF sets need PVP fixes too, but rrelax a bit and see if they can even do it rigth for PVE first).

[Click_Beetle]

It's... uh... the reverse purple patch! :D

Sounds keen. My FFer is happy to hear it, as is my energy stalker. I guess we'll have to wait and see the implementation.

[Starsman]

I dare bet my head its just imposible for this change to NOT touch PvP in this way, since one of the issues of acc has always been stated how characters with too many inspirations and acc bonuses would easily negate def completely.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Concurred.

Beleeted, LOL ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a fan of Homestar Runner and his copious works.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

" For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. "

Umm this change means this : Im a blaster. I go fight a +5 boss with a 95% chance to hit me (its more than that but clmaped a5% so 95 works when not considering debuffs). I die. Now I turn on combat jumping, and that boss has a 57.5% chance to hit me instead of the 95%.


[/ QUOTE ]

It *might* mean that. But alternate interpretation is this:

You fight a +0 boss, that has 65% base accuracy. Flip on combat jumping, and CJ gives 2.5% defense, reducing tohit to 62.5%. Overall tohit drops to 96% of the original value (and equivalently, CJ is offering 4% total mitigation).

Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).

[BarackObama]

This is the biggest change since they added pockets to pants !

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.

It is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs.

You can find the Excel file here (http://www.geocities.com/hlj16/PosibleDefChange.xls.zip)

You will notice it wont mean that you will floor a lt as easily as an AV with this formula, but they do get close with the same number (an AV gets to 7.6 acc with a 45% def)

[/ QUOTE ]

A mechanistic change like this wouldn't stop at +5. So either Statesman was being cagey (defense will be just as effective up to +5 ... because it will be so in *all* cases), or the change has to revolve around altering the tohit bonuses due to rank, and the tohit bonuses explicitly granted by the purple patch (although technically, those level bonuses are not really due to the purple patch; I'm pretty sure they predate it).

[Vox Populi]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it will probably be something like this. Similar to how Resist works (100% - Resist value). It may, however, become harder to "bottom out" the ToHit value, but that may be intentional.

For example, right now if an enemy has a 75% chance to hit you, and you have a 30% Defense bonus, their ToHit would be 45%, right? In your version, their ToHit would drop to 70% of 75%, or 52.5%.

Of course, this is all speculation and probably a waste of time. :p

[FlamingMonkeyMan]

Aw crap! I JUST deleted my 29 spine/sr 2 weeks ago! Stupid reverse pod vampire people didn't invade soon enough. :(

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it will probably be something like this. Similar to how Resist works (100% - Resist value). It may, however, become harder to "bottom out" the ToHit value, but that may be intentional.

For example, right now if an enemy has a 75% chance to hit you, and you have a 30% Defense bonus, their ToHit would be 45%, right? In your version, their ToHit would drop to 70% of 75%, or 52.5%.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, in my version (well, its a version, not so much mine) if the foe's *base* tohit chance is 75% (which basically means he's a turret, an AV, or a pet), and you have 30% defense, then your net to hit is still 45%. The only difference is the *level difference*.


Without getting into the sticky math, if the tohit level bonus is some number, like +10% (i.e. +1 minion has base tohit of 55% - 50% * (1.1) ) then whenever you face a +1 minion, your actual defense will also scale up by 10%. So 25% defense becomes 27.5% defense. Basically, we're trying to keep the ratio of Defense/NetToHit constant.

Similarly, instead of looking at Bosses as having +15% tohit, its better to look at it as bosses have 30 percent higher tohit; i.e. 50% * (1.3). In that case, defense will be 30% higher when facing a boss. These two effects are multiplicative, not additive. So when facing a +4 boss, 25% defense will become 30% higher due to facing a boss, and then 40% higher *than that* due to facing a +4. 25% * 1.3 * 1.4 = 45.5%. Does it work?

25% verses even minion is 50% net mitigation (25/50)

45.5% verses +4 boss (91%) is still 50% net mitigation.


Caveat: my level scaling approximation is that +1 villains have 10% higher tohit. That's pretty close, but I believe others have determined that its slightly less than that, and I don't have the precise numbers handy. But the principle is that whatever they are, plug them in and it should work.


How this will "cut off" at +6 is anyone's guess. Potentially, it might be as simple as capping off the defense adjustment at +5. So if you are fighting a +6 boss, your defense will be buffed upward to Defense * 1.3 * 1.5, even though the villains have been scaled up to 1.6 tohit. Hopefully, it isn't a more drastic thing like terminating the scaling altogether.


[ QUOTE ]

Of course, this is all speculation and probably a waste of time. :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. But at least it might prevent people from taking too much or too little away from this announcement. Its a change, and it sounds like the net effect of the change is a good one, but beyond that, it comes down to the numbers, which I hope they share with us, because if I have to watch brawls for thirty seven hours to reverse engineer them just because they want to keep their formulas mysterious, I'm probably going to have an aneurism.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.

It is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs.

You can find the Excel file here (http://www.geocities.com/hlj16/PosibleDefChange.xls.zip)

You will notice it wont mean that you will floor a lt as easily as an AV with this formula, but they do get close with the same number (an AV gets to 7.6 acc with a 45% def)

[/ QUOTE ]

A mechanistic change like this wouldn't stop at +5. So either Statesman was being cagey (defense will be just as effective up to +5 ... because it will be so in *all* cases), or the change has to revolve around altering the tohit bonuses due to rank, and the tohit bonuses explicitly granted by the purple patch (although technically, those level bonuses are not really due to the purple patch; I'm pretty sure they predate it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, im asuming there will be a hard coded switch for this formula to not be used if the enemy is over 5 levels higher.

[Arcanaville]

See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
Aw crap! I JUST deleted my 29 spine/sr 2 weeks ago! Stupid reverse pod vampire people didn't invade soon enough. :(

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear next week they'll be announcing that when you impale a villain you'll be able to bring the body back to a store still on the spine and sell it for salvage.

[Umber]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, this is all speculation and probably a waste of time. :p

[/ QUOTE ]
Idle speculation? Welcome to the internet! Don't click on anything with the word "******" in it :p

[Dysmal]

Hmm. I wonder if this effects all defense powers. If it works on Parry too, that would be grand.

[reiella]

This confuses me...

Mostly because I don't quite get how Defense powers don't already provide the same boost to your defense. It's just that the attacker's base chance to hit is better...

[Ice_Ember]

will you be looking at the -def from unyeilding? or will vulnerable scrappers and tanks not receive a bonus? while i am posting... will unyeilding actually give scrappers meaningful resistance or will it only be mez protection and lowered defense that invincibility wont negate without several mobs around? as it stands now, for scrappers unyeilding and the passives are not worth slotting if you even take the passives.

anyway, glad sr is getting a much needed bonus, i know a few people that will be very happy. their scrappers, like mine, have been shelved since I5.

[Lokana]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's going to make Stalkers a whole lot more effective in PvE.

[Galactiman]

I think what a lot of people seem to think this means is that if you have even 1% defense then everything you fight up to +5 will suddenly have 50% ToHit. More likely what they're doing (and I think this is what Arcanaville is saying) is that whatever amount of defense you have will get the same boost that a mob's ToHit gets.

Meaning if a power provides 10% Defense against an even level minion who has a 50% ToHit, it will provide 13% against an even level Boss who has a 65% ToHit, and 15% against an AV who has 75% ToHit. In all of those cases you are getting hit 80% of the time.

So they're not touching mob ToHit, they're just, well, making defense scale. :p

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

Under "better late then never": WOOT!

I certainly hope that it slowly devolves after +5 con instead of a +6 con being as hard as it is today with only DEF!

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that's certainly a nice change!

Is that strictly for +defense powers, or will -accuracy powers be included in this also?

EDIT: Also, under the new system, if you're fighting a +6, will you have the defense value as if you were fighting a +1 today, or is there going to be a steep defense dropoff between +5 and +6 enemies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Echosing the two questions in this post.

[Luerim12]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you posted this /after/ New Years and far away from any parties I may or may not have been at.
I have been known to kiss the first person I can grab when properly inebriated, and may have inadvertantly tracked you down and planted a wet sloppy one before you realized what happened... Considering my current facial hair growth, you might have suffered some serious beard burn.

Whew! Way to avert a crisis there! Now /that's/ leadership!

Luerim

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

If you run my formula you will see that what you explained in 5 paragraphs was covered into the formula already.

Test the excel file with the numbers you just used and you will get exactly the same result you explained with 25% def. Its not more exact, its the same thing, only I gave a formula anyone can use to check any value against diferent enemies.

The only issue is, if your Def goes over 50% you will always get a negative defense, but that may be simply fixed by caping the defense at 50.

Oh and going back to the point of cutting out at +5, honestly, I am not sure if I see a reason for it. I mean, after all, Resistance can have its effect against any enemy, +6s dont suddenly ignore resistances. Why should +6s ignore the new standard defense scheme?

Oh and all in all, i think after this they may coinsider 25% Def on inspirations a bit too powerful, so i would not be amazed to see those getting some big nerf.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Meaning if a power provides 10% Defense against an even level minion who has a 50% ToHit, it will provide 13% against an even level Boss who has a 65% ToHit, and 15% against an AV who has 75% ToHit. In all of those cases you are getting hit 80% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small correction but its actually a big point:

in all those cases you are getting hit 80% as often as you did before. Truth is you are not getting hit an equal ammount of times under each diferent def number. Even if it scaled proportinatedly, you get that you are bing hit (accounting the 10%):

40% of the time by minnions
52% of the time by bosses
60% of the time by AVs.

It basicaly turns the whole thing multiplicative instead of substractive, by translating the minnion oriented number into a true percentage modifier by dividing it by 50 and then multiplying it against the acc of the enemy and then substracting that result from the acc to get the final chance to be hit.

Simplyfiing my original formula (since i wrote it a bit of in the haste of the exitement)

(ToHit + buff - debuff) * (1-(DEF/50))

This way we dont calculate the enemy final acc twice.

Now that i think about it, i ponder if they may decide to change the minimun 5% chance to hit for a 45% def cap, would be very similar, but maybe a bit more in line with real 90% resist caps.

[FlamingMonkeyMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aw crap! I JUST deleted my 29 spine/sr 2 weeks ago! Stupid reverse pod vampire people didn't invade soon enough. :(

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear next week they'll be announcing that when you impale a villain you'll be able to bring the body back to a store still on the spine and sell it for salvage.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol thats fine, he was replaced w/ a spine/da... :p

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.

[FreelanceWizard]

My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.

Consider an SR toggle power that right now is 12.5% Def. Against an even con minion, that's actually a 25% reduction in its tohit (37.5/50). Against an even con boss, that's a 17% reduction in its tohit. If the devs simply transfer the current percentages over without adjusting them for such a system, you're taking at worst a 50% reduction in Defense. Under such a system, a minion's tohit would be 43.75 (50 * .875, instead of 50 - 12.5 = 37.5), and that boss would have a tohit of 65.63 (75 * .875, instead of 75 - 12.5 = 62.5). In fact, if the percentages aren't increased, your defense actually will scale *more* poorly as mobs go up in level, unless their base tohit is over 100.

In order to adjust the percentages properly, they'll need to make this change while simultaneously deciding the maximum level of mitigation that Def can provide; I think doubling all Def values would be a good place to start. Obviously, they can't be kept where they are now under this system.

I'm sure they've looked at all this already if the above system is what they're going to use, but if not, perhaps this can serve as a reminder. The devs, no offense, are not immune to the law of unintended consequences -- such as Parry letting you deflect shotgun blasts (Lethal) and Insulation Shield shielding you from some Psionic attacks (Ranged). ;)

[JediMystiq]

Would this also apply to / help the force fielder? Lord knows that Defender is in a world of hurt all unto themselves...most of it boredom.

~ Jonathan

[storm781]

why can't everyone be happy for the SR scrappers they finally got some true dev lovin (i'm not saying all of you are downing this buff) i'm for one happy with this and am looking foreward to a content issue for once

<edit>
sorry i'm just so happy that SR finally got some love that i forgot that this seems to effect all defensive powers

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

If you run my formula you will see that what you explained in 5 paragraphs was covered into the formula already.

Test the excel file with the numbers you just used and you will get exactly the same result you explained with 25% def. Its not more exact, its the same thing, only I gave a formula anyone can use to check any value against diferent enemies.


[/ QUOTE ]


Scaling defense buff = Current Defense * RankToHitBuff% * LevelToHitBuff%


One equation, three variables.


Mine and yours diverge under two circumstances. The first is if and when a villain group's even level minions ever have intrinsicly higher base tohit than 50%, separate from any actual tohit buffs. Second, by separating level and rank factors, it points to a possible mechanism for leveling off the defense scaling buff past +5, whereas yours doesn't distinguish between the two.

Someone is probably going to say something about the fact that there aren't any villain groups with minion base tohit anything other than 50%, and even if there were, you could simply look at that as an intrinsic tohit buff. Actually, *assuming* that they did anything remotely close to this, the possibility of having villain groups with intrinsicly higher base tohit in the future jumps dramatically; long time followers of defense and accuracy discussions might guess why, but beyond that I'd rather let that one lie for now.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.

Consider an SR toggle power that right now is 12.5% Def. Against an even con minion, that's actually a 25% reduction in its tohit (37.5/50). Against an even con boss, that's a 17% reduction in its tohit. If the devs simply transfer the current percentages over without adjusting them for such a system, you're taking at worst a 50% reduction in Defense. Under such a system, a minion's tohit would be 43.75 (50 * .875, instead of 50 - 12.5 = 37.5), and that boss would have a tohit of 65.63 (75 * .875, instead of 75 - 12.5 = 62.5). In fact, if the percentages aren't increased, your defense actually will scale *more* poorly as mobs go up in level, unless their base tohit is over 100.

In order to adjust the percentages properly, they'll need to make this change while simultaneously deciding the maximum level of mitigation that Def can provide; I think doubling all Def values would be a good place to start. Obviously, they can't be kept where they are now under this system.

I'm sure they've looked at all this already if the above system is what they're going to use, but if not, perhaps this can serve as a reminder. The devs, no offense, are not immune to the law of unintended consequences -- such as Parry letting you deflect shotgun blasts (Lethal) and Insulation Shield shielding you from some Psionic attacks (Ranged). ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

I refer you to this specific quote from the OP:

[ QUOTE ]

Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've finally been accused of not using enough formulas! This one goes up on the refrigerator!

[firebane]

FINALLY!!!

[TheArtifex]

Wow. This is awesome!

[Fraktal]

[ QUOTE ]

Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, Kali... You read these forums a lot. Clearly some of these people would be more intimidated by grammar. :)

F

[Tourettes]

While I'm happy this is happening (My lvl 38 Brute who is /EA thanks you) I'm concerned w/ what it means.

Per his words, +5 mobs will be treated as equal lvl mobs????

Equal level mobs do NOT hit me, so that means a +5 lvl mob will NOT hit me which means next the DEVs will have to add higher lvl difficulties for missions beyond Relentless.

Sorry, it's just that way.

Tourettes

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:

a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff

I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me that the simplest solution would be to multiply your DEF by the same purple patch multiplier that increases the MOBs Base toHit.

So, if you're taking on a minion who has a 50% chance to hit you, and you have 20% DEF, you should get hit 30% of the time. Without your defense, you would have been hit 50% of the time. So, your DEF has reduced your damage 20/50 = 40% actual damage mitigation.

If the MOB is +1, his purple patch multiplier is ~ 1.1 (1.094). Raising his ToHit to 55%. If they multiplied your DEF by 1.1 it would be 33%. So the MOB would now hit you 55%-33% = 22% of the time. That means that your DEF has reduced your damage 22/55 = 40% actual damage mitigation.

In formulas that says it changes from

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF

TO

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier

The purple patch multiplier is above 1 if the MOB is higher con than you, and below 1 if the MOB is lesser con than you. So if it is as simple as that, they would be making your DEF less effective against foes that con blue and green in exchange for the better mitigation against reds and purples. That wouldn't be bad, but I suspect they may floor the effects of this change at 0 con foes, just as it is ceilinged at +5 cons.

I suspect that if the MOB is more than +5 levels above you, then your DEF is multiplied by the PPM for a +5 MOB instead of the actual con differntial (so a +6 hits you the way a +1 does today), and if the MOB is even con or below, they set the PPM to 1.

Hopefully they will tell us, but that seems the simplest way to go about it.

[Aleshanee_NA]

Thank you! This is a great move forward for my ice tank! :D

[firebane]

[ QUOTE ]
While I'm happy this is happening (My lvl 38 Brute who is /EA thanks you) I'm concerned w/ what it means.

Per his words, +5 mobs will be treated as equal lvl mobs????

Equal level mobs do NOT hit me, so that means a +5 lvl mob will NOT hit me which means next the DEVs will have to add higher lvl difficulties for missions beyond Relentless.

Sorry, it's just that way.

Tourettes

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if you think about it like that it could just be the other way around +5 mobs hit me so equal mobs will hit me... ;)

I think we should consider it to work just like resistance i.e. 50% resist is the same for a lvl 20 attack as for a lvl 40 attack, it cuts damage in half...

[Arcanaville]

See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.

Wait, actually he did it to me, too.

::Shakes fist in the air::

[Sabatini]

::Happy Dance::

Thanks States! This is a welcome welcome change.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.

Wait, actually he did it to me, too.

::Shakes fist in the air::

[/ QUOTE ]

What'd I do?

Other than speculate, that is?

[FreelanceWizard]

[ QUOTE ]

Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no need to refer me to the original post, which I read, thanks -- though I will note that I used Bosses versus Minions as an example of where a multiplication system for Def can go wrong because I happen to know the base tohits for those off the top of my head, compared to varying level mobs.

I will also say that intent sure doesn't equal reality all the time. ;)

Also, technically, a percentage reduction in tohit does work equally well on all mobs, you know. You're still getting the same percentage reduction of the mob's Acc, even though the final effects (in terms of absolute Acc reduction) vary. I think we're just reading the post differently.

In any event, it's all speculation until it hits test.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've finally been accused of not using enough formulas! This one goes up on the refrigerator!

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. :)

Mark it on the calendar, too.

[Ineffable_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, but it really doesn't. It reduces the risk, but you've still got more risk fighting a +4 than you do fighting a +3. The +4 will hit harder, have longer lasting status effects, etc. when he does hit. This is the inverse of than what damage resistance sets get today - for them, a +4 is more dangerous than a +3 because they'll get hit more often.

In theory, I like this change. It's nice to see a good number of improvements being considered. I'll withhold judgement on whether it'll work in practice until we see it on Test.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no need to refer me to the original post, which I read, thanks -- though I will note that I used Bosses versus Minions as an example of where a multiplication system for Def can go wrong because I happen to know the base tohits for those off the top of my head, compared to varying level mobs.

I will also say that intent sure doesn't equal reality all the time. ;)

Also, technically, a percentage reduction in tohit does work equally well on all mobs, you know. You're still getting the same percentage reduction of the mob's Acc, even though the final effects (in terms of absolute Acc reduction) vary. I think we're just reading the post differently.

In any event, it's all speculation until it hits test.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was responding to this:

[ QUOTE ]

My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are ways to do it which don't hurt defense sets with regard to rank, and since Statesman says it will work for both rank and level, I'm prepared to assume that whatever scheme they've cooked up, it does exactly that until I'm shown otherwise - although I share your apprehension that it might *not* work in precisely the way Statesman thinks it does.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, but it really doesn't. It reduces the risk, but you've still got more risk fighting a +4 than you do fighting a +3. The +4 will hit harder, have longer lasting status effects, etc. when he does hit. This is the inverse of than what damage resistance sets get today - for them, a +4 is more dangerous than a +3 because they'll get hit more often.

In theory, I like this change. It's nice to see a good number of improvements being considered. I'll withhold judgement on whether it'll work in practice until we see it on Test.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, right now a +5 hits a resistance set more often than a +0, *and* hits that set harder, and therefore a resistance set takes more damage from a +5 than a +0. The same is true for a defense set, but while the damage increase per hit is the same for both, the relative amount they get hit more often is much higher for the defense set than the resistance set.

In other words, both might take 50% more damage per hit, but it might be the case that the resistance set is getting hit 50% more often, while the defensive set is getting hit 100% more often. *That* is the source of the disparity between defense and resistance when we say "defense doesn't scale with level." A similar statement can be made to describe the difference between minions and bosses, instead of +0s and +5s.

Whatever this patch does, it won't eliminate the risk in going after higher level or higher rank foes. All other elements of increased rank or level would still be in effect, including higher damage, and (in the case of higher levels) the purple patch itself, which reduces the effectiveness of your offensive capabilities (which slows down and extends the fight, increasing the damage you therefore take during the fight, and presumably putting you in more jeopardy).

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

[/ QUOTE ]


Forming a line.


The easy way to do this is to increase all defense values by 50% to 100% and then make it a separate "dodge" roll, not a to-hit subtraction. But Statesman's post suggests otherwise, as he talks about scaling, but "only" up to +5. Seems they actually went and modified defense based on relative levels.

[Clan_Jericho]

You know, this only looks like a buff to Tankers, Defenders and Scrappers. In reality this is also an enormous buff to Blasters and Controllers, both of whom are now going to be able to use the (admittedly few) defensive power-pools to great effect.

If all defense starts scaling then CJ will provide a true 5% damage mitigation. Stacking with Hover and Weave that becomes a rather impressive 15% across-the-board damage mitigation. Stacked with the personal defensive powers available from secondaries, this is rather considerable.

Just something to think about.

~Gabriel

[Alexander_NA]

though this is indeed good news, the post is too far from techincal. please have castle look it over and make a post :).

*1 infamy sez they nerf lucks :(

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]

Scaling defense buff = Current Defense * RankToHitBuff% * LevelToHitBuff%


One equation, three variables.


Mine and yours diverge under two circumstances. The first is if and when a villain group's even level minions ever have intrinsicly higher base tohit than 50%, separate from any actual tohit buffs. Second, by separating level and rank factors, it points to a possible mechanism for leveling off the defense scaling buff past +5, whereas yours doesn't distinguish between the two.

Someone is probably going to say something about the fact that there aren't any villain groups with minion base tohit anything other than 50%, and even if there were, you could simply look at that as an intrinsic tohit buff. Actually, *assuming* that they did anything remotely close to this, the possibility of having villain groups with intrinsicly higher base tohit in the future jumps dramatically; long time followers of defense and accuracy discussions might guess why, but beyond that I'd rather let that one lie for now.

[/ QUOTE ]


Turrets for one have higher acc (they are becoming every day more common)

Also, you are leting out buffs and debuffs (if i did that id have 2 variables only on my equation) and if you do that you are forgetting about one of the many issues of def, how a simple acc buff of the enemy can easily negate your def entirely.

Still, this is all assumption so best thing we can actualy do is wait and see.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.

NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus

Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy. Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out. An advantage is that you wont always get negative numbers if you go above 50% def.

If it IS on a table, and enemy has an accuracy on a factor of... lets say 1 = 50 then 1.5 would mean the AV accuracy... Lets call it MinionDefIndex just as we do with brawls. In this case you can use this instead:


EnemyAcc - (Def * MinionDefIndex * (1+LevelBonus))

Still leaving out the buffs though.

[bpphantom]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't have to be in granite all the time! :) Whooo! back to an "Oh Sh*^!" button :)

[Spiritchaser]

honestly, there are countless ways they could write the equations and get it right. I don't see why it would be at all hard to do, I'd be very happy if they'd show us the math, but, but I'm happy enough as it is. My 3 EA brutes will be most grateful.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[misfiring]

Well the big question remains,
Does this go for all powers that give defense or just ice tankers and SR scrappers?

What about the stalkers and brute defense based sets?
bubbles?
weave?
etc

[Liberty_Reborn]

He used them as an example ALL defense will be like that.....My 37 SS/EA brute will be most satisfied muahahahaha :D

[DistantDeath]

Awesome! Does that include all defensive sets? I know that CoV toons would like to have that as well...

[Galactiman]

Player A has 10% Defense and Player B has 20% resistance (per the 1 DEF=2 RES thing)

Even level minion has 50% ToHit and attacks 100 times with an attack that does 100pts of damage.
Player A gets hit 40 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 4000.
Player B gets hit 50 time for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 4000.

Even level boss has 65% ToHit, which is a 30% increase over the minion, with the same attack chain as above.
Player A's Defense is increased 30% for a new defense of 13%, so he gets hit 52 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 5200 pts.
Player B gets hit 65 times for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 5200 pts.

AV with 75% ToHit, which is a 50% increase over the minion, with the same attack chain.
Player A's Defense scaled up to 15%, so he's hit 60 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 6000 pts.
Player B gets hit 75 times for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 6000pts.

Regardless of what the new ToHit formula is or whatever, doesn't this seem like the most logical thing to happen?

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
honestly, there are countless ways they could write the equations and get it right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but i do see a few reasons why it may actualy be tricky to get it perfectly right but until the devs actually tell anything, all we can do is have some fun with math!!! :eek:

And on that line here is yet anoter theory!!! So far, based on a few comments by Geko on how accuracy works, I think accuracy works arround a base index just like Brawl Indexes work. This index seems to be 1 =75%. You may notice he has in ocations refered to Accuracy as 1.0 while its 75%. So this would mean a minnion has arround 0.6667.

With this we can go...

Acc_Idx = Base_Acc_idx * (1+Level_bonus) + Buff
Acc_Idx = Acc_Idx - ((Acc_Idx/.6667) * (debuff * (1 - Level_bonus)))
Final_Acc = (Acc_Idx * 75) - ((Acc_Idx/.6667) * Def)

In this theory I am actualy thinking (hoping) that a def debuf will also benefit from the change, but still applying to it a mitigation by level as any other debuff gets.

[MrTickle]

i just crapped myself with JOY

[SuperChris]

[ QUOTE ]
Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include all +Def powers, including Force Fields, Pools, etc.?

Will it affect +Res powers? (I assume not)

Will it affect -ToHit powers?

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooops. Good point there.

[ QUOTE ]
NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus

Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the "rank bonus" is really just: (Base_2Hit/50) so that additional factor simply requires re-leveraging a variable we already know. We don't need any vodoo, just add * Base_2Hit/50 to the end of the formula.

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50, rank is covered, too.

For example, let's look at a guy with 25% DEF

<ul type="square"> Even con minion: 50 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 50/50 = 50-25 = 25 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation
+1 minion: 50 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 50/50 = 55 - 27.5 = 27.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation
even con boss: 65 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 32.5 = 3.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation
+1 con boss: 65 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 35.75 = 35.75 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation
[/list]

I don't know if that produces the same results as your formula or not. Probably pretty close even if different since we're trying to guess how to accomplish his stated goal.

[ QUOTE ]
Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not DEF debuffs. Just treat the DEF variable in my simplified initial funtion is NET defense (DEF - DEF_Debuffs + DEF_Buffs) and you have DEF buffs and debuffs accounted for.

But, assuming they wanted ACC buffs and debuffs to scale, too, they would make them multiplicative instead of additive debuffs.

If you apply a -5% ACC debuff to an enemy it is essentially added to their Base_2Hit. So a -5% ACC debuff would lower a minion to 45% ACC, and lower a Boss to 60% ACC, etc. That portion of the accuracy fornula looks like this:

Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit +(2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs)

To make it scale you would change it to a multiplicative scale based on minion's Base_2Hit

Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50

So now a -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con minion to 50% * (50%-5%)/50% = 50% * 45%/50% = 50% * 90% = 45%

And the same -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con Boss to 65% * ((50%-5%)/50% = 65% * 45%/50% = 65% * 90% = 58.5%.

If you wanted 2hit buffs to stop penetrating DEF, you would change the formula to:

Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Buffed_2Hit/50

But I suspect that they WANT 2Hit buffage to penetrate DEF, ergo the formula would be:

Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50

PS - I...I just wish this post had more formulas. So, let me turn it into one grand unified formula!!!!

Net_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50 - (DEF + (DEF_Buffs - DEF_Debuffs)) * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50

See, it's simple!

[p0isonb0x]

This is great news! even better than if u told us u saved a bunch of money by switching to geico....

lvl Em/Ea is lvl 39 so this should be out for the lvl 40-50 content woot!....


on a side note I think Statesman has been abducted by aliens and replaced with a clone. however the aliens lacked the technology to duplicate the very rare NERF GENE so they just left it out.


on a second side note, if rikti are aliens, we do they not use anal probes?

"Communication Officer has probed you for 124.7 points of internal damage!"

[Constant_Motion]

All I can say is wow! :)

Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well? :p

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well? :p

[/ QUOTE ]

States says
[ QUOTE ]
Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level.

[/ QUOTE ]

So i guess this means whatever it is, it will even help a fire tank with combat jump as his only source of def.

Oh and happy birthday :)

[p0isonb0x]

[ QUOTE ]
All I can say is wow! :)

Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well? :p

[/ QUOTE ]


this applys to all defense sets including ninjitsu he gave ice and SR as examples

[Soulscorch]

If the way your thinking about the change is correct, would it be better to talk about defense in a different manner so that it is understood by everyone more easily? Talk about it more in the same terms that resistance is talked about.

What I'm trying to say is:

If you have 25% defense, the bad guys will always hit you 25% less than he hits someone with no defense. The same way that a person with 50% resistance will take 50% less damage from a bad guy than someone with 0 resistance.

Have they actually moved to the 1 Def = 2 Res?

Overall, the defense person and the resistance person are taking the same damage from the same bad guys up to +5.

If a "critter" swings 100 times with 50% acc, and hits for 100 damage:

Then
The person with 25% defense will take 2500 damage over the course of 100 swings.

&amp;

The person with 50% resistance will take 2500 damage over the course of 100 swings.

If they put defense and resistance on the same scale then do we really have to talk about the mobs to-hit chance anymore? Won't damage mitigation be normalized as far as defense and resistance are concerned?

It just seems like there's a lot of confusion, and I agree, we need to wait for more information before finalizing our thoughts and feelings. But how in the world is the "average" player going to understand this? That's why I'm thinking we may need to talk about it in different terms than we have been talking about defense before. Instead of coming from a system of defense not scaling the same as resistance, perhaps we should begin to talk about it from the mindset that they are on the same scale, and mitigate damage similarly.

[Venekor]

Great!!!!! :)

[DavidDun]

I think everyone that has or played an Ice tanker just slumped down in their seat and started crying with joy.

[Galactiman]

So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)

TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.

TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.

Does that sound right?

[Suspicious_Pkg]

I wonder if this need became apparent while testing a new shields powerset? I would think the rumored shields set would be heavily defensive.

OMG! I think I may actually be looking forward to I7.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.

NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus

Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy. Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out. An advantage is that you wont always get negative numbers if you go above 50% def.

If it IS on a table, and enemy has an accuracy on a factor of... lets say 1 = 50 then 1.5 would mean the AV accuracy... Lets call it MinionDefIndex just as we do with brawls. In this case you can use this instead:


EnemyAcc - (Def * MinionDefIndex * (1+LevelBonus))

Still leaving out the buffs though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you are close, but {I believe} it works out like this...

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Mob_Rank_Modifier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Mob_Rank_Modifier.

This would neatly fit in with scaling mobs by rank (Boss &lt;--&gt; Lieutenants and the new ArchVillian &lt;--&gt; Elite Boss).

As both the purple patch modifer and rank modifier get passed to defense, if you *have* defense it increases in effectiveness based on what you are facing.

This has the benefit of making defense "better" against Lts, bosses and AVs *and* against increasing con.

With a hypothetical 30% defense, you would end up with a 20% chance to be hit against minions and against an AV you would get 50*1.5-30*1.5= 30% . That used to be a 45% chance that he would hit you.

So bosses and AVs would still hit more, but your defense isn't totally useless.

The only problem with this sort of equation is negative defense or a penalty to you defense, like Unyeilding, as this would effectively *increase* your penalty.

[Lothart]

Aw man, now my Invuln Tanker may be overpowered again.

I wonder what they'll have to take away next...

[BatKnight_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

*blinks*

I've gotta have my eyes checked...it looks like Statesman is doing something to INCREASE survivability! Gotta be a catch somewhere...

[p0isonb0x]

*takes out 2nd 9 inch needle out of States Voodoo doll*

(1st was for stealth nerf retraction)


keep them coming States only 37 more to go!
(yeah I have a fire tank)

[Rhynalae]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm...

I haven't played a low level /SR for a couple of months, so at low levels, this makes a difference. But at higher levels, with SO's...i'm fighting on Invinc...without insp. If you allow my defense to work this good against +5's....that's just too good, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the same experience. SR's sort of a dog at low levels. I remember my Ice/Fire not being able to tank very well unless I was fighting whites and lower -- I remember yellow Council making swiss cheese out of me. Sort of embarrassing...

But once they get up into the SO range, things change immensely because the character has picked up many useful protective powers plus stronger attacks, reducing incoming damage.

I haven't hit AV's yet with a Defense-based toon, so I don't know how that works out, but right now I'm flying high. The Ice/Fire tank I mention is level 35 and can solo large groups of white and yellow Nemesis soldiers in Creys, no problem, as well as groups of yellow/orange DE. (Sure, I take some damage, but I've got a good build and can compensate for it.)

I doubt the Devs would be so blind as to just tack this on without considering the ramifications... after all they eat and breathe this game!

But I'm really interested in seeing how it's implemented.

[Stargazer]

Hmm.

[p0isonb0x]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm.

[/ QUOTE ]


a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.

[Galactiman]

[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.

[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot condescending. :p

[BlackMagic_NA]

Just read the news this change sounds awesome, I'll bring my SR scrapper back out now. I'm just wondering though if this change works for all defensive powers or just Ice and SR. For instance will Invincibility have this same effect? Cloak of Darkness? Stone armors? That's the question I would love to have answered right now.

[Alimistar]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah.. bah...bah....bah....bah...

::thud::

[Alimistar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think everyone that has or played an Ice tanker just slumped down in their seat and started crying with joy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that right!

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)

TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.

TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.

Does that sound right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly that, you can make it even simplier like this:

TotalToHit * (1-Def/50)

[Obsidius]

Noticed:

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: Close to Starsman EDed grave

[/ QUOTE ]

Time to get a voodoo witch doctor to resurrect Starsman?

BillyWitchDoctor.com with one convenient location in Africa

[og_ninja]

zOMG!

This is so awesome. I can't wait for this to go through...

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

And on that line here is yet anoter theory!!! So far, based on a few comments by Geko on how accuracy works, I think accuracy works arround a base index just like Brawl Indexes work. This index seems to be 1 =75%. You may notice he has in ocations refered to Accuracy as 1.0 while its 75%. So this would mean a minnion has arround 0.6667.


[/ QUOTE ]

To the best of my knowledge he has never done that: what he's done is sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of the Player (which is Base To Hit = 75%) and sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of a Power (which is 1.0) with the ambiguous term "Accuracy" which can be confusing to people reading.

[Galactiman]

[ QUOTE ]
TotalToHit * (1-(Def/50))

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, that's an even simpler way to do it!

Seems like such a simple thing, makes you wonder why they didn't do it ages ago (like, in the first build of the game).

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, you are leting out buffs and debuffs (if i did that id have 2 variables only on my equation) and if you do that you are forgetting about one of the many issues of def, how a simple acc buff of the enemy can easily negate your def entirely.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mine explicitly leaves out tohit buffs because Statesman's OP doesn't explicitly mention them, although I do mention in my post how to extend the formula to deal with them if the devs elect to extend this idea to tohit buffs (it isn't necessary that they do: there are alternate methods for dealing with tohit buffs, and there are certain issues with using this method for dealing with them).

The one I describe explicitly scales defense to deal with Rank and Level, which is what the original post claims the update will do, and it explicitly mentions a +5 cutoff mechanism, something the OP suggests might happen.

Its unlikely that the issue of high tohit buffs would slip my mind. And the nature of the formula Tohit * (1 - Def/50) is moderately familiar to me: I discussed it at length in my Acc v Def and Elusivity threads a year ago.

[Lothart]

[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which was yours?

[Starsman]

The witch doctors are waiting to see the real repercusions of this change before they attempt to resurect Starsman, after all, they dont want Darkstar to kick his rear back to the grave as soon as he stands up if this does not turns to work well.

If this is as we have been guessing, it will actually result in 1def =2res.

Example:
Against Minnion:

50acc, 25def, 0 res, 100 swings of 50pts
25 hits of 50 dmg = 1250 points of damge

50acc, 0def, 50 res, 100 swings of 50pts
50 hits of 25 dmg = 1250 points of damge

Against AV:

75acc, 25def, 0 res, 100 swings of 90pts
37.5 hits of 90pts = 3375

75acc, 0def, 50 res, 100 swings of 90pts
75 hits of 45pts = 3375


An interesting thing is, 1def = 2Res only if taken independently, look at what happens if you use 50/50 distribution of def and resist. Based on 1def = 2res that will mean 25resist and 12.5 def.

75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875

Suddenly, they are not as strong together as they are on their own, so you cant just say the sruvivability of a character is equivalent in resistance to def*2+resist

Now, mixing high def and low resist:
75acc, 20def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
45 * 81 = 3645

And finaly a low def high resist:
67.5 * 54 = 3645

So its interesting how here two oposite builds are equal but one in between both is inferior, and how these mixed sets are both inferior to pure res or pure def sets.

Therefore, going back to my point, it depends on wether or not this is what is coming and if so, how this will affect tankers that have a mixture of both types of shields. My stone tanker is not improving though, so I see no reason to even think about resurecting that one.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)

TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.

TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.

Does that sound right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly that, you can make it even simplier like this:

TotalToHit * (1-Def/50)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

I.E. Your equation says (Base_2Hit + Net_2Hit_buff) * (1-Def/50)

I suspect it will more likley be akin to:

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * (1-Net_DEF/50) + Net_2Hit_buff

Where Net_DEF = DEF + (DEF_Buff - DEF_Debuff)

and

Net_2Hit_Buff = (2Hit_buff-2Hit_Debuff)

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

An interesting thing is, 1def = 2Res only if taken independently, look at what happens if you use 50/50 distribution of def and resist. Based on 1def = 2res that will mean 25resist and 12.5 def.

75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875

Suddenly, they are not as strong together as they are on their own, so you cant just say the sruvivability of a character is equivalent in resistance to def*2+resist

Now, mixing high def and low resist:
75acc, 20def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
45 * 81 = 3645

And finaly a low def high resist:
67.5 * 54 = 3645

So its interesting how here two oposite builds are equal but one in between both is inferior, and how these mixed sets are both inferior to pure res or pure def sets.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is that *other* grand design issue in CoH that has been discussed off and on (the first being Accuracy and Defense): Stacking.

To wit: if 12.5% defense and 25% resistance are currently offering roughly the same protection, then adding 25% resistance to both ought to leave them roughly even. It doesn't because the 25% resistance stacks additively to the original 25% resistance, but multiplicatively with the 12.5% original defense (most people colloquially say when two defense mitigation types stack multiplicatively that in effect they "don't" stack, which most of us know refers to the same basic situation).

Its this issue that is ultimately behind the low defense numbers in SR, the very very low numbers in power pool defenses, the notion that defense sets "benefit more" from buffs than resistance sets, and the wild discrepancy between the Defense cap(s) and the various Resistance caps. It all comes down to accelerating returns from linear stacking, specifically the fact that powers can stack higher and faster than the devs want.

It isn't the *powers* that should stack additively, its their *effects* that should stack additively, meaning adding X% resistance to a set adds the same net benefit regardless of what the set originally looked like. There are ways to do that in theory.


In effect, 1 DEF = 2 RES is only true when we are not talking about stacking. Once we start talking about stacking, it isn't even strictly true anymore that 1 DEF is always equal to 1 DEF, or 1 RES is always equal to 1 RES.

[Galactiman]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

I.E. Your equation says (Base_2Hit + Net_2Hit_buff) * (1-Def/50)

I suspect it will more likley be akin to:

Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * (1-Net_DEF/50) + Net_2Hit_buff

Where Net_DEF = DEF + (DEF_Buff - DEF_Debuff)

and

Net_2Hit_Buff = (2Hit_buff-2Hit_Debuff)

[/ QUOTE ]
But why should ToHit buffs be worse on Defense than Resistance when there are sets like Ice and EA that have little to no defense to psi and toxic anyway?

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is specifically the source of my hesitation to include *all* tohit buffs into the equation, and why I thus restricted myself to rank and level buffs factored into defense only in my Defense scaling formula, which yours quickly converged to.

Strictly speaking though, this idea (and elusivity) isn't a saving throw mechanism, because it doesn't strictly take effect after an initial hit calculation. It functions more like inverse accuracy if you look at the entire tohit formula (it acts like fractional accuracy, or a sort of accuracy debuff - and I'm using the term "accuracy" in its specific usage in the tohit formula here to distinguish it from tohit).

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

But why should ToHit buffs be worse on Defense than Resistance when there are sets like Ice and EA that have little to no defense to psi and toxic anyway?


[/ QUOTE ]

The question is, should there exist "undefendable attacks" as a mechanism, given that there are unresistable (or less resisted) damage as a mechanism for resistance. In my opinion, such a mechanism has to exist in theory, or else Resistance has holes Defense does not. The issue is moderating tohit so that it is infrequent instead of pervasive (like toxic/psi damage), less devastating (DE Quartz eminators must die), and possibly have alternate counter mechanisms (psi resistance does exist, albeit less commonly).

Technically, damage typed defense has a comparable hole to the psi hole in resistance: there's no toxic typed defense. I don't mean no set has it, I mean it does not currently exist in the game engine. It doesn't exist for the devs to give out (short of a significant overhaul to the game engine the devs have previously called "daunting").

Still, I think there has to be a way to create an AV, say, that has heightened tohit that avoids being nullified by the tohit formula, just like there's a way to make an AV that uses all psi attacks (Babbage). We don't want defense-bypassing tohit buffs *constantly* but its important that we have them *occasionally*.


One caveat to all of this. One undiscussed thing not just here but in most discussions of defense in CoH is just exactly how the defense-bypassing mechanism in radiation attacks work. Depending on how they work, radiation attacks could be Defense's version of "psi." But beyond the fact that I know radiation attacks do in fact seem to hit defense more often than normal attacks, I do not have a mathematical description for radiation's "defense-bypassing" effect. It could be as simply as radiation attacks having a high inherent tohit buff. If that is the case, once again its important to preserve that sort of tohit buff's effect, because its important - to be fair - for Defense to have its "psi." It should just be uncommon.

[_Ilr_]

Let us not forget the whole reason DEF doesn't scale is because the Devs put in code that grants Mobs a higher To-Hit based on Rank(Which I5 showed us was a global Variable that required no more effort to change than a couple lines in an Excel Doc) and against minus-level players as well. So this was a problem of their own making in the first place.

For balancing it... Well, it looks like there's already mechanics in the game at later levels that do that... Fortunatas, DE Quartz, and any other mobs with To-Hit buffs.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

[/ QUOTE ]

Psy and toxic do not penetrate resistances.

Its only that characters dont have resistances to the types, and truth be told, no one has any def against toxic so toxic will always ignore defense, and few sets have def against psy (some may have it in the form of melee/range/aoe def but no stright psy def)

So, under the TotalBuffedACC * (1-Def/50) formula, ACC bonuses still works as well as DMG bonuses do against resistances, they get mitigated but not ignored.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.

[/ QUOTE ]

Psy and toxic do not penetrate resistances.

Its only that characters dont have resistances to the types, and truth be told, no one has any def against toxic so toxic will always ignore defense, and few sets have def against psy (some may have it in the form of melee/range/aoe def but no stright psy def)

So, under the TotalBuffedACC * (1-Def/50) formula, ACC bonuses still works as well as DMG bonuses do against resistances, they get mitigated but not ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that Psi and Toxic don't penetrate dmg res, they "bypass" DMG RES because people typically don't have dmg res against those types.

Since most people with defense have defense against ranged, melee and AE, (although some do have defense typed by damage, and others have both!), 2Hit buffs are the games method of "bypassing" DEF.

Thus, I stand by my speculation.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is that *other* grand design issue in CoH that has been discussed off and on (the first being Accuracy and Defense): Stacking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the issue being if i dodge/parry/deflect an attack, Resistance never gets to do anything.

That means that during the attacks that are mitigated by def, resist did absolutely nothing, so in a combined enviroment it would be something like... lets see...

((def/50) * 100) + (res * (1-def/50))

Here is the proof of this formula being right:

((12.5/50) * 100) + (25 * (1-(12.5/50)) =
25 + (25 * (1 - 0.25)) =
25 + (25 * 0.75) =
25 + 18.75 =
43.75

Now lets run again the case of 12.5 def and 25res:

75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875


And now lets run it with zero def and 43.75 resist:

75acc, 0def, 43.75res, 100 swings of 90pts
75 * 50.625 = 3796.875

And we get exactly the same!

This formula holds right now against minions, if you want to get a real equivalence of resist + def stacking you can run the formula on a build to see the equivalent resist you get agasint minnions. Id say Stone is a perfect exsample test subject for this. I think stone gets 26% def and 18.5 resist once 3 sloted (outside of granite.)

((26/50) * 100) + (18.5 * (1-(26/50)) =
(.52 * 100) + (18.5 * (1-.52)) =
52 + (18.5 * .48)
52 + 8.88
60.88

So, Stone gets the equivalent to 60.88 resistance against smash/lethal currently against minnions.

[p0isonb0x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which was yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lothart, if you cant figure out mine was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.

[Pilcrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which was yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you cant figure out min was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.

[/ QUOTE ]


The above is an example of combining informative and funny, with an added element of flaming for spice.

This post falls under commentary - a category not listed by poisonbox and therefore of no value unless accompanied by humor.

&lt;-----Wasting your time.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that Psi and Toxic don't penetrate dmg res, they "bypass" DMG RES because people typically don't have dmg res against those types.

Since most people with defense have defense against ranged, melee and AE, (although some do have defense typed by damage, and others have both!), 2Hit buffs are the games method of "bypassing" DEF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu relly on source damage (melee/ranged/area)

Ninjitsu is also a set with extremely low def numbers, as it rellies heavily on its utility powers like his AOE plasate.

Also altough a lot of pool powers now have range/melee def, they still are vulnerable to AOE (that being the cryptonite on that case) and are available for anyone, not a specific set, and even then are very low.

Lastly, vulnerabilities are not the realm of systems but of stats, so if range/melee/aoe are the flavor of the powerset, its up to the stats of these set to make sure one of those is lower, or to give some sort of -resist to the specific vulnerability if it was needed so that once that type of damge hits, it hits hard.

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

[/ QUOTE ]

Responses:
Is that strictly for +defense powers, or will -accuracy powers be included in this also?
Yes, To Hit Debuffs will be more effect in PvE as well.

Based on the question below...will all defense work this way? All defense to include primary or secondary powers, self and team buffs, and inspirations. Or is this change targetted to specific forms of defense?
The To Hit calculation was changed, so all Defensive powers of any type are affected by this change.

Is this change for all ATs with defense or only certain powersets?
Do defense buffs get this change?
Do Inspirations get this?
Do Power Pools?
All AT's benefit from this change.
Yes, buffs are affected.
Yes, Inspirations are affected.
Yes, power pools are affected.

This only effect PvE or PvP as well?
PvE mostly. In most ways, PvP already had effects that essentially did the same thing.

Is it safe to assume this also applies to CoV defensive sets?
Yes.

I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.

For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.

does this mean Mobs(bosses) that use defense will be more difficult?
Nope! The above change only applied to Mobs.

So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.

Have you guys really play tested this?
It's been running internally for all tests since October.

There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!

[p0isonb0x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which was yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you cant figure out min was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.

[/ QUOTE ]


The above is an example of combining informative and funny, with an added element of flaming for spice.

This post falls under commentary - a category not listed by poisonbox and therefore of no value unless accompanied by humor.

&lt;-----Wasting your time.

[/ QUOTE ]


Pilcrow, you should know that I didnt add the sub-categories to my list of post types because most of the people here cant comprehend the lvl of detail... Lothart has pointed that out so nicely.

[Heart_Breaker]

And this is why Castle rocks!

[Galactiman]

/em gives Arcanaville a box of cigars.

So when you guys gonna put him on the payroll?

And hey, you answered my smart [censored], rhetorical question! :D

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.

[/ QUOTE ]

This means that every enemy always had a base of 50% plus a % buff instead of a fixed buff? Or was it changed to be this way with the new system?

[Jeffrey_NA]

[ QUOTE ]

So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

...And that power is? C'mon you can't just leave us guessing here. :)

[Fraktal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But why should ToHit buffs be worse on Defense than Resistance when there are sets like Ice and EA that have little to no defense to psi and toxic anyway?


[/ QUOTE ]

The question is, should there exist "undefendable attacks" as a mechanism, given that there are unresistable (or less resisted) damage as a mechanism for resistance. In my opinion, such a mechanism has to exist in theory, or else Resistance has holes Defense does not. The issue is moderating tohit so that it is infrequent instead of pervasive (like toxic/psi damage), less devastating (DE Quartz eminators must die), and possibly have alternate counter mechanisms (psi resistance does exist, albeit less commonly).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always questioned the wisdom of having global "undefendable" (or very had to defend/rare defense) power types. It's entirely reasonable for a single power set to have a specific Achilles' heel (e.g., Psi makes sense to me for Invuln). But having all (or most) powersets have the same Achilles' heal, given how different the sets are in "special effect" (fire vs. cold vs. dark/negative vs. invulnerable) has always seemed utterly nuts to me. It's entirely unclear why Fire, Cold, and Invuln characters should have the same weaknesses, other than "it makes the devs' jobs easier."

But oh well... that horse left the barn a long time ago...

I definitely agree that if any character has to have an Achilles' heel, they all need to have one -- fair is fair. SR should have a weakness just like Invuln does. I just wish the weaknesses were different, rather than all the same thing (basically, everyone gets hit by the same auto- or near-auto-hit attacks, everyone is weak in res to Psi and Tox, and everyone is best vs. S/L, no matter what the effects).

F

[Castle]

[ QUOTE ]
This means that every enemy always had a base of 50% plus a % buff instead of a fixed buff? Or was it changed to be this way with the new system?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not exactly true, but for all practical purposes, it is close enough. They had a higher Base To Hit value, which is the same as having a To Hit buff that increased their To Hit to that point.

[Galactiman]

[ QUOTE ]
...And that power is? C'mon you can't just leave us guessing here. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
You're joking, right?

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

...And that power is? C'mon you can't just leave us guessing here. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[Galactiman]

[ QUOTE ]
For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lucky currently gives 7.5% right? I reckon that'll be dropped down to 5% as well.

[Starsman]

Something like AVs having 1.5 base acc multiplied by 50 then? And if so thats where the subtraction went? Resting the def against the 50 before the multiplication?

[Lothart]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which was yours?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lothart, if you cant figure out mine was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.

[/ QUOTE ]

poisonbox,

Judgemental !=! Informative

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree that if any character has to have an Achilles' heel, they all need to have one -- fair is fair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be clear, I'm not explicitly advocating Achilles Heels in the sense of all *sets* having no mitigation against a particular type of attack at all, but rather something related: the devs should always have the *option* of creating special case villains that are explicitly harder for a particular type of mitigation than normal. Psi does that for many resistance-oriented sets (but they aren't completely defenseless: most have dull pain or healing); tohit buffs do that for SR. The question is one of intensity, and prevalence - SR didn't have an Achilles Heel, it had an Achilles Epidermis.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!


[/ QUOTE ]

!

Now, since my ego simply has to know: did one of my suggestions finally get stuck on someone's shoe and then tracked into the right cubicle, or was this always on the boards as a potential solution to the problem that simply required sufficient coding time to engineer?

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
SR didn't have an Achilles Heel, it had an Achilles Epidermis.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, ROFL.

You know, I am now positively salivating to see I7.

Please, please, please, Devs, don't sneak in something we will hate with this one? Even if you have something cooking that we will hate, can it wait an issue? I'm tired to the bone of getting all excited about a new issue only to find that not only did it come with a huge wet blanket, but the blanket was soaked in mild acid. And made of fiberglass.

[Maldini_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

...And that power is? C'mon you can't just leave us guessing here. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evasion was 10% higher than Focused Fighting and Focused Senses (22.5% versus 12.5%). They'll probably drop it down to 12.5% to coincide with the others.

[Bill Z Bubba]

[ QUOTE ]
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a long time SR user... I am actually happy to hear this.

1: It makes more sense from an RP standpoint.
2: It makes the choice to dump evasion that much easier
3: With these changes in place come I-7, we wil now get a free respec as this will probably be considered a major change.

I'm giddy.

To Arcanaville, thank you very much for your diligence in getting help for we defense based folks. If this change isn't proof that a player can put forth an idea that is actually implemented in game, I don't know what is.

I bow to your beautiful math and testing.

[Maldini_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lucky currently gives 7.5% right? I reckon that'll be dropped down to 5% as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the passives as far as I know were a base 5%.

[Arcanaville]

It also sounds, upon careful read of this, that tohit buffs themselves, separate from level and rank adjustments, are unaffected by this change, which is consistent with Statesman's original wording of the change.

Is there a different change to adjust the effect of high tohit buffs, especially (but not exclusively) in PvP? High tohit buffs were one of the things Statesman mentioned many months ago as being "looked at."

[Bill Z Bubba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lucky currently gives 7.5% right? I reckon that'll be dropped down to 5% as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the passives as far as I know were a base 5%.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the bump to evasion occurred, there were several tests run that apparently showed lucky to have also been raised. Thus the 5/5/7.5 and 12.5/12.5/22.5 stats that were bantered around.

Now, I'm NOT going to state that I am happy with what will be our values of 5 and 12.5, but with this change in place, I have the distinct feeling that I WILL be.

I will throw out one bit of negativity to put my overall happiness in check:

It's about damn time this was fixed.

[GloomBlade]

Can someone tell me if I should start crying doom just for the sake of it even this all sounds good.

[Bill Z Bubba]

[ QUOTE ]
It also sounds, upon careful read of this, that tohit buffs themselves, separate from level and rank adjustments, are unaffected by this change, which is consistent with Statesman's original wording of the change.

Is there a different change to adjust the effect of high tohit buffs, especially (but not exclusively) in PvP? High tohit buffs were one of the things Statesman mentioned many months ago as being "looked at."

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they already look at them and make a change accordingly by making ToHit Buff enhancements Schedule B rather than A?

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For non-followers of SR, that power is (almost certainly has to be) evasion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lucky currently gives 7.5% right? I reckon that'll be dropped down to 5% as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the passives as far as I know were a base 5%.


[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to recall Stargazer, ArchTester of Defense, measuring lucky at 7.5% a while back.

[GhostLancer]

Castle:
I'm curious. Why the complicated math (well, relatively)? Wouldn't it be more effective to get away from the subtractive design of DEF and move to something multiplicative (terminology shamelessly stolen from FreelanceWizard)?

The numbers on DEF powers would have to be tweaked, but you'd have -perfect- equivalence in scalability with RES sets at -all- levels.

Ex: 50% DEF would cut a target's ACC in half, whatever that ACC was to begin with. So then, say, a white minion would have a 25% chance to hit (50% base ACC x 50%). Then, no matter -what- the mob's base accuracy, 50% DEF would mean you take (on average) half the damage you would have with no DEF, exactly the same as 50% RES means you take half the damage you would with no RES.

[Caios]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a long time SR user... I am actually happy to hear this.

1: It makes more sense from an RP standpoint.
2: It makes the choice to dump evasion that much easier
3: With these changes in place come I-7, we wil now get a free respec as this will probably be considered a major change.

I'm giddy.

To Arcanaville, thank you very much for your diligence in getting help for we defense based folks. If this change isn't proof that a player can put forth an idea that is actually implemented in game, I don't know what is.

I bow to your beautiful math and testing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am equally giddy of this change. I don't think I would drop evasion once this took effect however, as it still provides a DefDebuff resistance. Rather my hope is that they will reduce the end cost of evasion to be more in line with the other toggles and compensate for the defense loss. If that is the case I will gladly welcome this "nerf".

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
It also sounds, upon careful read of this, that tohit buffs themselves, separate from level and rank adjustments, are unaffected by this change, which is consistent with Statesman's original wording of the change.

Is there a different change to adjust the effect of high tohit buffs, especially (but not exclusively) in PvP? High tohit buffs were one of the things Statesman mentioned many months ago as being "looked at."

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to see anything done here done with extremely careful consideration to the difference in PvE and PvP.

In PvP, high toHit can counter Defense based armors. But in PvE, toHit powers are a joy to the players. Missing is one of the most basic forms of frustration, and getting a power that cuts down on this is often paid for by choosing a particular power set, pool set, or epic set, and often comes with other considerable costs, such as endurance burn or some other kind of downtime. I would hate to see these powers gutted simply because they become onerous in PvP when someone decides to maximize them through both paying the cost of having/using them and slotting heavily for accuracy.

Basically this topic is a potential sticking point for me of the PvP game intruding on things that, for me at least, make the PvE game more fun. Because I hate missing frequently in PvE more than any other single thing, even more than pervasive mezzing.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It also sounds, upon careful read of this, that tohit buffs themselves, separate from level and rank adjustments, are unaffected by this change, which is consistent with Statesman's original wording of the change.

Is there a different change to adjust the effect of high tohit buffs, especially (but not exclusively) in PvP? High tohit buffs were one of the things Statesman mentioned many months ago as being "looked at."

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't they already look at them and make a change accordingly by making ToHit Buff enhancements Schedule B rather than A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless they also heavily reduced the base values of the actual tohit buffs in PvP, and didn't say so, switching tohit buffs from A to B balances then against defense enhancements, which they technically should be, but doesn't really do much to powers like Aim or Build Up, which each possess (as far as I know) higher base tohit buffage than SR possesses total defense. Most people I know don't even *slot* Aim with tohit buff enhancements, making a reduction in them ineffective on its own in taming that power.

But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

I would like to see anything done here done with extremely careful consideration to the difference in PvE and PvP.


[/ QUOTE ]

100% agreed.

[HoshiAdam]

Since the change appears to be in how Accuracy is calculated, with level adjustments being applied last, will the same be true for players trying to hit enemies?

As I understand it, instead of enemies (effectively) having a To Hit Buff from relative level, they now get a multiplier to their final accuracy. Did enemies recieve a Defense Buff for being higher level before, and if so, do they now recieve a multiplier on the final accuracy instead of the (effective) Defense Buff?

Not 100% sure on the numbers, but what I'm asking is:
Old Chance to hit=(1+Accuracy Enhancements)*((Base To-Hit*Level Adjustment) - Defense +(To Hit Buff-Debuff))

Is that changed to:
New chance to hit=(1+Accuracy Enhancements)*Level Adjustment*(Base To Hit - Defense + (To Hit Buff-Debuff))

Crunching some numbers:
Base to Hit, even level, nothing else: 75%
Base to hit, +1 level, nothing else: 68% (could be 67.5% I think)

Old level adjustment: 0.90
New level adjustment: Same.

With a +20% To Hit Buff
Old accuracy vs. even: 95%
New accuracy vs. Even: 95%
Old accuracy vs. +1: 87.5%
New accuracy vs. +1: 85.5%

That would mean a To Hit Buff would be not as effective as before, if what I'm thinking is true actually is true.

[Liquid]

[ QUOTE ]
I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.

For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.

I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula, with respect to Acc bonuses vs Def bonuses. Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.

I'm both excited and worried about how you will react to this realization.

P.S. You indeed rock, Castle. Thanks for the detailed info.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE). It is the only power in the game left besides Rage that allows you to stop slotting Accuracy in your powers. And you pay for it by facing a staggering endurance burn and taking a EPP that really doesn't offer a lot of interesting powers. (Conserve Power is pretty great, but not everyone needs it, and there are other more interesting pools out there, IMO).

There's no real benefit to ACC/toHit overkill in PvP. The purple patch intervenes in other ways, even if you can hit +5 and +6 foes, the heavily attenuated effects of your powers, and the massive damage they deal back, makes it a bad idea. So there's no real benefit to stacking powers and Accuracy enhancements. Getting a power like FA or Rage is enough.

Enter PvP and the scene changes. Now you regularly face people who have DEF as their mitigation. And no you get real benefit from stacking things that no one would stack in PvE.

I REALLY don't like the idea that FA could be gutted from its present utility in PvE to make PvP fair. Because while I want PvP to be fair for the people that do it, I don't partake of it enough to want to pay for that with a loss of something I like in PvE.

[Bill Z Bubba]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless they also heavily reduced the base values of the actual tohit buffs in PvP, and didn't say so, switching tohit buffs from A to B balances then against defense enhancements, which they technically should be, but doesn't really do much to powers like Aim or Build Up, which each possess (as far as I know) higher base tohit buffage than SR possesses total defense. Most people I know don't even *slot* Aim with tohit buff enhancements, making a reduction in them ineffective on its own in taming that power.

But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.

I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.

(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)

[Alexander_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
The To Hit calculation was changed

[/ QUOTE ]

since we'd only just learned the formula, can we get the new one?

[Peteroid]

Will the new AV rules apply to missions already 'on one's plate'? I have a mission that I tried to solo, only to run into the Clockwork King. I have yet to get that mission off my roster. So, when these new rules kick in and I go back to that mission and try to solo (I'm set at rugged) can I assume I don't have to fight the King again...?

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Castle:
I'm curious. Why the complicated math (well, relatively)? Wouldn't it be more effective to get away from the subtractive design of DEF and move to something multiplicative (terminology shamelessly stolen from FreelanceWizard)?

The numbers on DEF powers would have to be tweaked, but you'd have -perfect- equivalence in scalability with RES sets at -all- levels.

Ex: 50% DEF would cut a target's ACC in half, whatever that ACC was to begin with. So then, say, a white minion would have a 25% chance to hit (50% base ACC x 50%). Then, no matter -what- the mob's base accuracy, 50% DEF would mean you take (on average) half the damage you would have with no DEF, exactly the same as 50% RES means you take half the damage you would with no RES.

[/ QUOTE ]

The system he described does this already, for ALL level and rank ranges. They simply seem to have chosen it not to apply for +6s and up, because theoricaly, if you managed to tank an even minnion, you may also be able to tank a +50 until you ran out of luck.

Now, it does is a bit unintuitive for the player that 25% def means 50% def, but truth is, the UI does not shows this def anyways. If it ever did, they can make the UI display Def*2 as the active Def value.

Also, if he changed the whole thing the devs would have to find every single power that grants def or acc debufs and buffs and change them all over, too big of a change.

[UberGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.

(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Those values are ludicrously low.

5% for Build Up?

Do you know what Tactics is on a non-Controller, non-Defender (CoH ATs only)? It's around 7%. And, unenhanced, I can tell you, it's barely noticeable in today's world, fighting mobs with no +DEF powers. And that's mixing it with one SO accuracy. You do start to notice it with 2-3 SO toHitBuffs in it, but it's still not incredible.

If you want those values slashed in PvP only, I have zero problem with that. But I would have heavy disgust for a change like that in PvE. I don't want to have to slot my damn Aim for toHit just to get a useful buff out of it in PvE.

[Whetstone]

Good show, ol' chap! Good show I say! Thanks to you and all for listening!

[Doc_Barlow]

Any chance we'll be able to either get a free respect or the ability to earn another one (having burned through the ones I'm eligible for already) to reallocate slots now that defenses are worth taking?


[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...

Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.

A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

This change is coming in I7

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[Bill Z Bubba]

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I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.

(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Those values are ludicrously low.

5% for Build Up?

Do you know what Tactics is on a non-Controller, non-Defender (CoH ATs only)? It's around 7%. And, unenhanced, I can tell you, it's barely noticeable in today's world, fighting mobs with no +DEF powers. And that's mixing it with one SO accuracy. You do start to notice it with 2-3 SO toHitBuffs in it, but it's still not incredible.

If you want those values slashed in PvP only, I have zero problem with that. But I would have heavy disgust for a change like that in PvE. I don't want to have to slot my damn Aim for toHit just to get a useful buff out of it in PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, but only to a point. If the ToHit buffing powers are reduced, something else will need to make up foir the reduction. Lowered end cost on FA and Tactics, as an example.

I also wish to see Lucks reduced to be "equal" to Sturdies. At their current values, with this change coming down the pipeline, they are grossly overpowered. UNLESS they are only compared to the grossly overpowered ToHit Buff base values of FA, Aim and Buildup.

Bring 'em all down, is my wish.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.

I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula,

[/ QUOTE ]

What it may actually show is that def inspirations are overpowered and lead them to nerf them.


[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.

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Remember he clearely stated this only applies to players being hit, not players hiting NPCs.

[Pilcrow]

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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!


[/ QUOTE ]

!

Now, since my ego simply has to know: did one of my suggestions finally get stuck on someone's shoe and then tracked into the right cubicle, or was this always on the boards as a potential solution to the problem that simply required sufficient coding time to engineer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter?

Still. I've some belief that your Guide to Defense that demonstrated the problem so clearly had no small effect on this change.

PS - when you gonna update that guide?

PPS - If I understand this corretnly, it seems to leave ToHit Buffs as the achillies heel to defense.

[Starsman]

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But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE).

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Again, this change wont affect how players hit NPCs.

[Arcanaville]

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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.

For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.

I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula, with respect to Acc bonuses vs Def bonuses. Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.

I'm both excited and worried about how you will react to this realization.

P.S. You indeed rock, Castle. Thanks for the detailed info.

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It depends on what you mean by "nearly floored." An interesting consequence of this type of adjustment - a specific one I actually endorse - is that you can no longer floor AVs.

What???

Its a consequence of how accuracy buffs work. Unless they made other unannounced changes, there's *two* floorings that take place in the tohit calculation:


(BaseAccuracy + AccuracyBuffs) * (BaseToHit - Defense)

leaving out some terms, this is floored twice:

Floor[5%, (BaseAccuracy + AccuracyBuffs) * Floor[5%, (BaseToHit - Defense) ] ]

Since the term (BaseToHit - Defense) can never be lower than 5%, that also means an AV, with a 50% accuracy buff, can never be driven lower than

(1 + 0.5) * (0.05) = 0.075 = 7.5%.

Basically, an AV will hit you 50% more often than a minion hits you, always (short of the tohit ceiling), even if you have enough defense to floor them both.


It is *not* exactly true that 50% defense "floors" everything. Yes, it does, but on the other hand, the actual "floor" is automatically raised with accuracy buffs. If accuracy buffs get massively out of hand, this could be a problem (and I'm sure right now a lot of people are reaching to type a response saying it *is* a problem now) but it seems to be small price to pay for tohit scaling to be moderated.

Is it fair? Depends on your definition of "fair." Without this double-flooring effect, SR scrappers with bubbles would hard floor everything (including AVs) which in essence would mean they could completely dodge the entire accuracy buff altogether, while non-defensive sets could not.

Its a non-issue outside of heavy buffing (or inspiration usage) so its not a large balance issue. Its something to look at over time, though.


With respect, its tohit buffs that expose the flaw in the tohit calculations: by leveraging accuracy bonuses, the devs have shifted rank and level buffs to the part of the calculation that actually works *correctly* (in my opinion, of course). It sucks if something that is really hard to hit doesn't suddenly get easy to hit if you 3-slot with accuracy, but for defense to be working correctly, nothing that is easy to do should make good defense into bad defense. There's no way to slot an attack to make good resistance into bad resistance, for example.

If PvE targets get *too* annoying to hit, the solution is to make them have a little less defense: PvE villains don't complain about getting hit too often.

[Behold_Gravitas]

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Agreed. So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.

I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.

(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Those values are way too low and I play an energy aura brute. Its the use of buildup PLUS aim that greatly hurts +def sets in PvP. Its this combination of augmented damage and acc, along with toggle dropping that makes melee classes vulnerable to ONE particular playstyle from ONE AT (the blapper). d.

What I'd rather see is eliminate or dramatically decrease the secondary effect of each buff.

For instance, buildup should be 100% dmg boost and no +acc. If this seems to harsh for sets with only buildup (melee), then make the +acc component a relatively low number, 16% or so...equal to a DO in boost. The same holds true for Aim. Currently as it stands, both powers get the benefit of at least 50% secondary boost, which under ED is a lot.

[da5id]

I'm wondering if this is going to lead to an eventual migration of all toHit type buffs to be Acc multipliers instead. That way they would affect Def and Res types, on average, in exactly the same way...

Giving us something like
Avg %Dam = (Acc buffs)*(0.5-Defbuffs+Defdebuffs)*(1-RESbuffs+RESdebuffs)

Of course doing this would require a new DEF cap similar to the RES cap.

[Arcanaville]

[ QUOTE ]

PS - when you gonna update that guide?


[/ QUOTE ]

Probably as soon as the I7 changes to defense appear to be set in stone and it doesn't look like any others are coming (i.e. I'm still wondering if something else related specifically to tohit buffs is also in I7; given how significant a change this is to addressing defense concerns, they might be trying for a clean sweep of them).

[UberGuy]

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I agree with you, but only to a point. If the ToHit buffing powers are reduced, something else will need to make up foir the reduction. Lowered end cost on FA and Tactics, as an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, I don't care about the costs. The costs are currently balanced against the (PvE) benefit these powers provide.

If their cost is slashed but their benefit is too, I consider them to cease to be useful. This has already happened, in effect, with Targetting drone. It went from something you could use in place of slotting accuracy in your powers to something that, honestly, you now seem to need to combine with accuracy slotting. All of which goes a huge distance in nullifying what was, for many players, the primary attraction of the entire Devices secondary (at least once Smoke Grenade was fixed). What would be the point in PvE of Focused accuracy in the world you propose? Self Tactics for melee characters? I'm not enthused by that idea. With their original values, these powers have a valid and design purpose that is muddied by the fact that it makes sense to do things in PvP that don't make sense in PvE.

[ QUOTE ]
I also wish to see Lucks reduced to be "equal" to Sturdies. At their current values, with this change coming down the pipeline, they are grossly overpowered. UNLESS they are only compared to the grossly overpowered ToHit Buff base values of FA, Aim and Buildup.

[/ QUOTE ]

No real argument here, other than, again, the tie in with the buffs.

[UberGuy]

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But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE).

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this change wont affect how players hit NPCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they nerf our toHitBuffs it will. That's what I'm referring to.

[Hunter2357]

It should probably be noted that this change will alter the to-hit floors that are attainable for various villain classes.

The reason for this is that accuracy multipliers are applied after the to-hit calculations are performed and the minimum of 5% is applied.

As such, if all bosses have 50% accuracy (enough to bring their 50% to-hit up to 75%)... then the absolute minimum their to-hit value would be able to be reduced to is 7.5% as opposed to the current 5%.

Not that this sort of an alteration is a big deal, but I just thought it was important to mention for the interest of full disclosure... unless of course there is something else going on in the to-hit calculations that I am unaware of.


EDIT - Upon reading parts of the thread I did not skim through it seems as though Arcana beat me to it lol... good job :)

[Liquid]

[ QUOTE ]
So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.

I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.

(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That would make the to-hit bonus from these powers damn-near unnoticable in PvE, just because they are overpowered in PvP.

I'm also not remotely surprised that it's being suggested.

[Liquid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember he clearely stated this only applies to players being hit, not players hiting NPCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how it has always worked for players hitting NPCs when you are using accuracy enhancements and not tohit buffs. I'm not referring to the proposed change.

[Pilcrow]

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So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm, while you're mucking about with SR...

Can you consolidate the 6 +DEF powers in this set down to 5 or 4 and put some more ultility powers in there. It would really balance SR with other sets since they all either have more utility powers or more variety in their protection.

SR = 6 +DEF/-ACC, 1 MEZ Protection, 1 Utility, 1 Level 38 Monster
DA = 2 DMG RES, 2 +DEF/-ACC, 1 heal, 1 MEZ Protection, 3 utility
Inv = 4 DMG RES, 1 DEF, 1 MEZ, 1 heal, 1 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Regen = 4 Heal, 1 Resist, 1 Mez, 2 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Energy = 3 DEF, 1 Mez, 1 Resist, 3 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Ninja = 3 DEF, 1 Resist/heal, 3 utility, 1 Mez, 1 level 38 Monster

Every set has more variety in the defense they offer and uses fewer powers to get their central protection than SR. SR deserves teh same.

Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.). Just give us a bit more variety, please.


&lt;-------Greedy