One shotting has got to end [Archive]

b_rod

12-07-2005, 09:51 AM

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

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Well said. Unfortunately, little joe with his uber-stalker (who jumped ship from Device blaster/regen scrapper/tanker-land) can't understand this :D

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So where exactly does it get "fun" again?

Ok, so it's not fun to get one-shotted --> nerf stalkers and blasters

It's also not fun to get two-shotted from a que'd up sequence --> nerf stalker, blasters, scrappers, brutes

Is it fun to get three shotted by another sequence?

Why must certain AT's be nerfed away from their strengths to accomodate other AT's weaknesses?

If I'm a squishy, I don't cry nerf when an offensive juggernaut crushes me. I overstepped my limitations.

If I'm an offensive juggernaut, I don't cry nerf when a squishy mez's me.

You have to live with weaknesses you have. Not bring everyone down because of your own weakness.

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 09:55 AM

As long ast the opponent has some chance to do something other than die, then things are peachy. They don't need very long, maybe a second if not less, but at least having the chance to either put up some form of retaliation or evasion would be great.

We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.

b_rod

12-07-2005, 10:14 AM

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As long ast the opponent has some chance to do something other than die, then things are peachy. They don't need very long, maybe a second if not less, but at least having the chance to either put up some form of retaliation or evasion would be great.

We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.

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This is a valid argument. But from experience playing both a blaster and a stalker in PvP, it would be just as easy to two shot people.

What I'm trying to say, is that 2 shotting is pretty much just as easy for any AT that can 1 shot.

Consider this:
I'm a stalker facing a scrapper - I can't one shot a scrapper without some serious buffage, so - I BU+AS+strong follow up melee. If I have this que'd up, that scrapper will die IF he doesn't get away from my second melee attack by effectively running. So if all goes right, I've killed my scrapper in 2 shots and in about 2 seconds after my initial attack.

I'm a blaster going against a scrapper - I can't one shot without serious buffage, so - BU+AIM+snipe+strong range attack. If i have this que'd up, the scrapper will die in two hits EVEN IF HE RUNS (in most cases because its very hard to escape the blaster range in the 1 second it take to fire off the 2nd attack). So, I've killed my scrapper in the same amount of time.

Point is, where is the line drawn on what is fair/fun? If we eliminate one shotting, two shotting is really just as easy for some AT's. Trust me, its how I kill beefier AT's. So do we get rid of two shotting too?

At some point everyone just has to play the hand thats out there. There are ways around EVERYTHING out there, even getting one shot.

NinjaMonkey

12-07-2005, 10:42 AM

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

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Random? How is it random when someone successfully manages to sneak up on you, que the attack, land it, and manage to kill you? It didn't just happen the guy did a lot of work to accomplish the task.

Are you saying there is zero defense against this AS? If so you're wrong. The stalkers have to be careful to not pick a target that can see them or fight back or has a buddy ready to smash them into a puddle. If the stalker kills you but then dies because of your teammate it's an even score. To gain the edge the stalker has to be somewhat patient and intelligent in what he does.

Oh, and if it's not fun then why are people playing stalkers? Seems like a good portion of people enjoy this style of play. It's not fun for you but they are having fun. Are you saying that it has to please everyone at all times? I doubt that's ever going to happen.

Lastly, please explain to me how a stalker can do anything if the AS fails to kill someone. My experience is that a stalker is either dead or running for his life when the AS fails to get the job done. He has very little else he can do. You want him to stand there and just take a beating? Even my defenders can kill them in a fair fight, or at least capture him so a teammate can do it. Yea, that sounds like fun for the stalkers - reveal yourself to the enemy and give him a chance to hold or mezz you so you can then be killed.

The balance for stalkers is that they really can't live much beyond the AS and when revealed are easy pickings. If you want to take away the AS then you need to change everything else because I don't see how they could do anything without AS being a seriously dangerous weapon.

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 10:46 AM

Even if they were to just add a short "winding down" period of no more than one second at the end of a snipe or AS (or fixed how suppression doesn't work for them), then things would be fine.

It would sort of exclude them from normal attack chains, but those powers are rarely part of them anyway. I use my snipe in the middle of a battle all the time, but that's just me :)

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 11:14 AM

Tannim222

12-07-2005, 11:17 AM

Actually, something is already being looked into for this. It may not be something like you want were you are left with 25% hitpoints, more likely 1 hitpoint, but at least one shotting is being looked into (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php? Cat=&Board=stalker&Number=4122994&Forum=All_Forums &Words=shot&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=4117625&Sea rch=true&where=bodysub&Name=134522&daterange=1&new erval=3&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev= #Post4122994) .

Deathtrip

12-07-2005, 11:24 AM

PERIOD. EXCLAMATION POINT! (can we even do that?) :D

_Ilr_

12-07-2005, 12:02 PM

Your idea sucks. PvP and Stalkers would be boring as hell without 1-shotting. The only thing that needs to change about 1-shotting is the mechanics leading up to it....IE: Inspiration and Stealth Abuse ...Including Nukes. Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad. But everyone needs more options on stopping 1-shotting. After that, it's their own fault if they get 1-shotted, or 2-shotted.

b_rod

12-07-2005, 12:10 PM

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Even if they were to just add a short "winding down" period of no more than one second at the end of a snipe or AS (or fixed how suppression doesn't work for them), then things would be fine.

It would sort of exclude them from normal attack chains, but those powers are rarely part of them anyway. I use my snipe in the middle of a battle all the time, but that's just me :)

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Again, another good idea. I'm sure you'll get some arguments on how leaving a player totally non-offensive for a brief time is a death sentence (especially for squishies).

Again though, there is a definition problem with one shotting. If you have a team of stalkers pulling AS's simultaneously, it really doesn't matter who the target is, they are going down, and FAST. No chance for retaliation there. Same is true of a few sniping blasters.

So is the issue really one shotting or dieing quickly without the chance for retaliatory action? It seems like the latter is really the issue being complained about. In all reality, I don't think there is any way, nor should there be, any way to counter good team work.

I just hope people just think about what it is that is really upsetting them. If you are upset about going down fast while you were fighting another target, that was just good teamwork on your opponents side.

I know I get railed sometimes by a good duo without being able to take any action. It's just a part of the game. Like I said before, there are ways around it though.

b_rod

12-07-2005, 12:25 PM

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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.

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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.

Ground_Force

12-07-2005, 12:25 PM

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

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Well said.

PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

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Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.

That is all.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 12:27 PM

Patience does not = skill.

NinjaMonkey

12-07-2005, 12:44 PM

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PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

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That requires no skill? So then why is it that I've lived thru AS before with multiple defenders. It's not a lock for a kill. If it were a no brainer it would work 100% of the time no matter what the stalker did. That isn't the case.

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I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

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If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?

Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?

NinjaMonkey

12-07-2005, 12:54 PM

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Patience does not = skill.

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So then being intelligent isn't a skill either? Or that means that if I'm impatient and just attack the nearest target when he's at full health I'm still being skillful?

No matter what you think AS is not a given one shot. You should try it and see how often it fails (and how often you die when it does fail) just to see what it's like. Otherwise it's sour grapes really.

Chindi

12-07-2005, 01:24 PM

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We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.

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You do have a chance to fight back...

... in fact you have the chance to fight back FIRST.

build up the perception bonuses needed to see through hide... snicker to yourself as the stalker 'sneaks' up on you... then blow him to smithereens.

Or is that not fair to him?

Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.

aqshy2004

12-07-2005, 01:25 PM

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If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?

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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

Stalkers not having an inch of defense is a fairy tale.

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Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?

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So if they change the 1 shot-kill thing, or placate (which never misses) will you adapt too?....

aqshy2004

12-07-2005, 01:29 PM

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Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.

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Wheter they end up changing AS or not, this is the biggest piece of C.R.A.P. I've ever read. I'm sure you thought smoke grenade was "working as intended" :p

DarkPhoenix

12-07-2005, 01:29 PM

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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.

/rolls eyes.

If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

_Ilr_

12-07-2005, 01:31 PM

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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.

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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.

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No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.

Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)

aqshy2004

12-07-2005, 01:35 PM

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Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.

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Cool! I can pop up some respites! What a brilliant idea!!! Great way to fight back!!! I'm sure your idea of "fun" is more whacked than jack's!!!

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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.

Chindi

12-07-2005, 01:37 PM

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So if they change the 1 shot-kill thing, or placate (which never misses) will you adapt too?....

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This is the thing I love the most.

Someone posts a link to an argument that suggests the devs are going to be incredibly short-sighted and put in some sort of 'no 1-shot' rule... so no you make sure to start dogging and moaning about another aspect of the power set, just in the hope that you can get that nerfed too.

The problem with this, is that just as soon as they nerf the stalker... they're going to have to go after other people too... because the Stalker will become totally ineffective in PvP.. and since you are pushing that the class has to be balanced for PvP... well they'll either need to up the stalker or reduce other people (say make it impossible to penetrate 'hide')... guess which will happen?

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Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

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So waiiiiiit a second... you want it balanced so a stalker can't run over a squishie who he gets alone? Because things should be balanced for when a stalker is fighting a single opponent?

Huh.

Why can't they balance things for when people aren't being stupid?

I mean let's see.... you're in a PvP zone.... there are enemies that can AS you... and you're wandering alone as a squishy... and doing it in such a way that they can walk up and kill you.

Do you often make large cash withdrawals from ATMs on poorly-lit streets, and then walk to the alley where you've parked your BMW?

No class in the game should be gimped just so that other people can be stupid and live. Though we have plenty of evidence that enough people whining will get exactly that.

BTW: I don't play a stalker... so you can toss out all those little tidbits about enjoying killing people with AS. In fact... I enjoy hunting stalkers and making their lives a bit difficult, but that's just me :).

DarkPhoenix

12-07-2005, 01:40 PM

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If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

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You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.

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nice to see your level of intelligence has not gotten past kindergarden level, calling people dorks suits you very well.

Chindi

12-07-2005, 01:43 PM

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Wheter they end up changing AS or not, this is the biggest piece of C.R.A.P. I've ever read. I'm sure you thought smoke grenade was "working as intended"

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Ah.. you're a funny funny man... let me list all of the devices blasters I played.

Wow... long list right there.

I've played 0 of the cheesy combosets, and I've 0 times done the TP Foe/Trip Mines, or AS, or any of that. But way back when they first pushed PvP into this game and people started whining about it I became a proponent of using your brain for something other than a chamberpot.

So... before you make assumptions and personal attacks, why don't you make a counter to the argument? Please explain why you should not in any way shape or form have to take measures so that you're prepared to deal with the core power of someone else's powerset?

This is akin to asking to be immune to being mezz'ed the first time, without having to use break-frees.

This is akin to asking not to be debuffed/slowed/knocked down the first time a status effect hits you successfully.

You don't want to have to adjust your tactics around the fact that stalkers exist.... so you'd like them castrated.

srmalloy

12-07-2005, 01:47 PM

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

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Well said.

PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

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And so we see what PvP almost instantly descended into -- the ATs with the massive alpha strikes lining up to one-shot the ATs that are vulnerable to their alpha strikes, who in turn hide from the ATs that can survive their alpha strike and the subsequent damage long enough to beat them into the ground, and avoid the ATs that can keep them from getting in to deliver their alpha strike. Stratification based on HP and defenses.

King_Moloch

12-07-2005, 01:50 PM

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

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Well said.

PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

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Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.

That is all.

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Just wanted to laugh at that. Stalker really was "Easy Mode" for me. That's why I abandoned the AT. It just made every victory feel...cheap.

Chindi

12-07-2005, 01:57 PM

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And so we see what PvP almost instantly descended into -- the ATs with the massive alpha strikes lining up to one-shot the ATs that are vulnerable to their alpha strikes, who in turn hide from the ATs that can survive their alpha strike and the subsequent damage long enough to beat them into the ground, and avoid the ATs that can keep them from getting in to deliver their alpha strike. Stratification based on HP and defenses.

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Or you know... maybe just maybe people approach PvP as what it is?

Heroes fighting Villains.

Plural.

Maybe they put a bit of thought into assembling a PvP team, so that there are complimentary strengths, and adjust their tactics for their weaknesses.

Because any amount of good teamwork beats all the instakill BS in the end.

The other night I saw a team of heroes essentially dominating Bloody Bay. They were out on the beach fighting heros and villains alike as they came. Using good tactics and support, using defenders on the team as lures... they did an awesome job.

I got a pickup group together, and we got shellacked the first time we tried to knock them off the beach... and the second. The third time it devolved into a draw with people down on both sides.. and people hurt and both groups scattering to the winds for survival.

Then we took the beach.... then we gave it back. Heh.

It was a lot of fun, and though there was one instant of instakilling (defender lures tend to get hurt, when instead of luring one guy back they turn a corner and an entire group hits them at once), it was generally a tactical combat.

Which is what PvP SHOULD be.

What it's devolved into is people wandering around the zone on their own trying to gank people, and getting ganked and then coming to the boards to whine about getting ganked and to ask the devs to nerf the class that ganked them.

It's also involved to people camping the lobby of the hospital on the villain side in order to grief people and rack up cheap kills.

The second you came to the board to ask the devs to 'fix' the problem that you're to lazy to adjust your build for, you became part of the problem, so don't sit back and tsk tsk tsk like you're above it all.

b_rod

12-07-2005, 02:02 PM

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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.

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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.

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No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.

Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)

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What are you suggesting here? Are you saying that in order to get off an AS, the target should have to stand still for 4 seconds?

I was merely stating that the same means of escaping an activated AS/snipe are the same. It doesn't matter if you are in melee range. You can get around the building 5 yards aways, AS will miss.

From my experience, I get a HELL of a lot less LOS interruptions on my sniping blasters. I don't see where the inconsistency is.

SuperDave7

12-07-2005, 02:05 PM

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Snipes are already governed by Line of Sight so they're not as bad.

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This applies to AS as well. If you jump behind around the corner of a building, no AS.

[/ QUOTE ]

No [censored] Sherlock. But here's the thing... AS is a melee attack. Teleporting or Leaping 50 yards away while it's still interruptable, but being hit because there's still a line of Sight is the kind of crap you'd expect in magical fairies and hobbits and sharks with friggin lasers on their heads fantasy Land... It has no place in a game like this that is highly twitch based and goverened by Ragdoll Physics. ...Do you have any idea of the full collision detection potential that Ragdoll and CoH's superior AI programming could accomplish??? We're talking 9th Wonder of the World here. We should expect better. Infact combined with Placate, long-range AS is the biggest "I Win" Button any AT has ever had in PvP, beating out I4's Perma-Ellude Scrappers and Perma-Phaseshifters.

Infact#2, I already passed this issue onto Statesman and he in turn went through the trouble to reply back and tell me he was sending it to Castle. It doesn't seem like an issue that 'would make the engineers' heads explode' so no one here is to say it's "working as intended" or "going to stay that way" until the Devs get back to us on it. Capiche? (Not directed at BRod, but at everyone else who argues just for the sake of arguing)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so teleporting and jumping 50 yds are something that happens daily in your hometown? This game is a fantasy land. But if we go with the "reality" of the video game, why should a blasters attack be heat seeking and follow you all across the map.

Archenas

12-07-2005, 02:13 PM

This looks like a disguised "Nerf Stalkers!" post... Maybe it's just me.

aqshy2004

12-07-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a dork, I don't hate stalkers, I play one. Sooner or later, they will change something...so lets enjoy it while we can.

[/ QUOTE ]
nice to see your level of intelligence has not gotten past kindergarden level, calling people dorks suits you very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm the one who thinks people "hate" other AT's (as if I couldn't make one too) and show "brilliant" ideas to counter AS :)

.......dork! :D

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're not saying that Stalkers should always lose, we just want a chance to fight back.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have a chance to fight back...

... in fact you have the chance to fight back FIRST.

build up the perception bonuses needed to see through hide... snicker to yourself as the stalker 'sneaks' up on you... then blow him to smithereens.

Or is that not fair to him?

Stop your blathering, the weakness is not in the powers but in yourselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!

Please hold still a minute while I kill you.

Castle

12-07-2005, 02:40 PM

Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 02:42 PM

I would call it 4 attacks. Caltrops is an auto-hit (also not really an attack, so to speak), but the 3 trip mines all need to make separate accuracy checks.

Quason

12-07-2005, 02:43 PM

I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.

That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 02:45 PM

Well great, we've already muddled up that question.

Can we have another?

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 02:48 PM

I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean but if anything I'd call the use of TP foe the 1-shot attack not the Caltrops + Trip Mines.

Quason

12-07-2005, 02:53 PM

*nod* I agree. And there's a hell of a lot of to-hit checks that have to take place (TP Foe and 3 mines) before the defender is killed. But still, if you're just running along headed to a mission and you see a whiteish-blue flash and the Go To Hospital button, how is that any different than getting ASed? I guarantee you the guy it happened to wouldn't find much dissimilarity.

Warcabbit

12-07-2005, 02:54 PM

I have _barely_ dodged that attack, by good mobility... already being in the air when the teleport went off. The caltrops aren't there for damage, they're to make you stick to the ground.

Warmaster

12-07-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well great, we've already muddled up that question.

Can we have another?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we park on driveways, and drive on parkways?

The the question at hand, do we look at it from a defender's perspective (no, or minimal, opportunity to react) or the attacker's perspective.

Quason - by State's definition, would a defender TP'd into a group of 3 blasters, all of whom hit their nukes, apply? What about stacked burn patches with Caltrops? To go back to the example of Caltrops + mines, what if each power was dropped by a different attacker?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just probing the boundaries as far as possible now, rather than later.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

Stacking multiple attacks is going to be nigh-impossible to block, and I think it should be allowed. It takes multiple powers, some basic tactics and, most importantly, time.

-- Warmaster

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 02:57 PM

I think its a bit different since more checks occur. Having said that i'm all in favour of allowing every player a chance of responding to an attack. I think how the Stalker playstyle currently works is a problem and i'm willing to recognise that this is also an issue of similar significance.
I'm not sure the fix is the same but I suspect it would need to be deployed at the same time as any AS change.

I think this may be a problem because it is potentially doable by a single player, just like an AS combo. Casual players with PvE builds ought to be able to engage in PvP without being ganked constantly. I accept that it takes more time but i'm not sure it involves greater risk for the ganker.

Naufragus

12-07-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.

That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.

Quason

12-07-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.

Spud_Lover

12-07-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you call them "healers" while you are at it?? :cool:

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT !!!

And if you want an extra helping of whine with that ... Toss Corruptors in with them ...

You'll get twice the whining from the same number of people :p

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:05 PM

How about a shorter duration on Trip Mines for PvP or a limit on the number an individual player can deploy? Either that or harsh penalties for repeated ganking by players.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 03:06 PM

I often PvP with my Stalker and many heroes either have Tactics, IR Goggles, or some other type of Stealth perception and they do just fine. I actually LIKE when those type of people are playing, because I don't have to read the whiny, "Turn off Hide and see how you do!" messages on broadcast or in tells.

Fact of the matter is, there's plenty in PvP to counter Stalkers. If people think a Stalker is going to run up to them and fight "tooth & nail" to the death, they're out of their mind.

Also as said before, it take a lot of patience and skill to be a Stalker in PvE and PvP. Go into Siren's Call and you'll see Stalkers getting owned and you'll see other Stalkers owning everybody else.

If you're getting one-shotted in PvP frequently, you need to pay better attention to your surroundings and take advantage of temp powers (since heroes have control of most of the PvP zones on every server atm) and other powers that enhance perception.

This coming from someone whose main is a Blaster.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a disguised "Nerf Stalkers!" post... Maybe it's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the stalker REP _Castle_ wants to eliminate 1 shots. So, I guess the Stalker rep is a disguised Stalker nerfherder.

Can we consider, just for one tiny moment, that Stalkers have the potential to be more than 1 shot killers. Or that, if they don't have that potential now, the devs will be smart enough to counterbalance their 1 shot stopper by buffing some other aspect of the Stalker AT?

If Stalkers don't stop treating every post on this subject as a nerfherding of their AT, they're not going to have their voices heard on HOW such a system should be put in place and WHAT compensation Stalkers should receive to keep them viable in a world without 1 shots.

Edit: Shameless plug for my idea for a one shot fix (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4261773#post4261773)

Equally shameless plug for (my variant of) Aracana's idea for a one shot fix (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4261533#post4261533)

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I often PvP with my Stalker and many heroes either have Tactics, IR Goggles, or some other type of Stealth perception and they do just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build; it discourages casual play in the long-term. As for IR goggles...

[ QUOTE ]
(since heroes have control of most of the PvP zones on every server atm)

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens when heroes don't have control of the zone? What about a level 20 character with no influence? They shouldn't go into Siren's Call? That seems a bit harsh.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:12 PM

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Castle.

Well, the */DEV is exposed to danger while he sets up the trip mines, but when he actually does the TP Foe...it feels a lot like a 1 shot.

Frankly, I think the solution to that particular problem is to change the way TP Foe works in PVP. Instead of TPing the foe directly to your reticle, it TPs them X feet ABOVE your reticle and gives then the good ol' TP Hover. Now they've got two seconds to figure out how to keep off those mines. If they have Fly or TP, the answer is pretty simple.

And, if they're not right now, mines should be targetable and susceptible to knockback.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.

That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why they added break frees and status supression.

Roughshod

12-07-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good job avoiding the issue, Castle. Blizzard asked me to tell you "Thanks!"

Dragonkat

12-07-2005, 03:16 PM

NERF HUNTERS!

<_<
>_>

Oh wait wrong game. :p

Various snipes, flames and insults aside, i'd like to take issue with one thing that irks me in this thread, the concept of "Well if you don't prepare you should be smacked down so have the right build to pvp!"

Issues with this.

What if I don't have room for tactics? What if I already have my four pools picked out with other things? Making a +perception power a "must" for pvp as much as making a stealth power one (not just hide here that's a given) seperates pvp right off into two classes, and we end up back at the classic debate of hardcore builders sleeked down for pvp vs casual gamers who might not have the perfect builds, and nine times out of ten won't stand a chance in pvp teamed or otherwise. Not to mention pvp becomes cookie cutter central, with even less room for variety then the fifty million forum posters still whining about ED.

Now let me disclaim that by saying there's a big difference between tactics as in build, and tactics as in gameplay and a good team. As the above beach fight example points out. But for me pvp always seems to come off as a failure because it instantly disqualifies most players from it simply because they don't have power X to counter fotm cheap shot Y or perfect build Z even if Z sucks totally compared to a good pve build.

But if you have a pve build you shouldn't expect to do well in pvp you say? and in truth you're mostly correct, but that's where I would ask yourself, how is pvp going to have the broad appeal and enough people particpating to ensure it's success if it can't draw in the casuals as well as the hardcores?

Most nights I go to SC or BB, dead zone, I really have to wait to see any good crowds or fights, and i'm not always able to play at "prime time" More so as my usual bedtime now with getting up at 6am for work is 10pm if not eariler.

Also think of when you first get sent there, it's around 14 for BB and for me it was 22 for SC, arguably about half the max level for each. well 2/3 in siren's case.

Now take mr casual gamer joe blow here, and watch as he walks in thinking this might be fun, total new guy not like a lot of the coh vets here, still learning the actual gameplay as well. Now watch as his first build gets janked, hospital, jank, hospital, camped, janked, etc. How long do you think he's going to stay if he's not having fun? Odds are he'll come here and fire off a rant like this idiotic nerf calls to hurricane that are so popular now. *level 50 stormie toon growls in annoyance* :p The point is pvp should be viable REGARDLESS of build, ability on the other hand is a whole nother matter. For me, it seems less about ability and skill then it does who has the most stackable powers or the best gear in the form of ex'ed down SO's and HO's course enhancements are a thread unto itself, so we'll leave that opinion right here.

I'm sure now someone is asking why then should I expect my ability lacking new guy to have any success at all? Shouldn't he lose and lose badly? I'll be honest here, yes he should most of the time. But if he's losing, how does he lose? Did he have a chance, did he have time to learn and think of a way to counter and win, or was there simply no chance because he kept getting stealth janked (not singling out stalkers here, blasters and anyone else can do it do, specially a stealthed controller sneaking up to mezz) due to just not having the right build or his must have +perception power yet?

Again was it skill, or was it build? pvp will not be sucessful regardless of what game it's in until the former replaces the latter fully.

Ask anyone who frets over builds like I do and they'll tell you there's just not room for everything you want. And I won't in any way shape or form compromise a build just to have an "edge" in pvp. To me it's not my fault for walking outside without a jacket, it's the devs fault for creating an enviroment where the jacket is needed. And to keep it going not making an enviroment where we can all chill in the sun on the sand with our swim trunks on.

Translation? Pvp should be a fair (as in good gameplay decides who wins and smart moves/teams) and not bullying (he who stacks the most stealths or tactics gets the first shot and usually wins) And outside sources shouldn't interefere with this. Which brings up my other big beef.

#2 He who has the most toys usually wins. And siren's call, 99% of the time hero dominated is where the big offender is, and it's name is IR goggles. Call it a whine if you want but a cheap to any hero 30 minute stealth breaker only avaliable to them heck only avalible to either side if by the grace of gods the villains hold on to SC, is patently broken if you ask me *joking laugh* period :p

The other powers i've got no problem with, web grenades are evil and I love them, and who doesn't love a free travel power? But this one breaks the main mechanic of stalkers right off, along with anybody who does go the must have stealth or wants to be sneaky route, and far too easily for it's cost and duration when stacked with other powers.

I'm sorry but it's not fun to me when i walk into SC, and can't even see my target as i'm stunned by a beanbag then 3 shotted by a blaster over and over and over, because i can't see him yet he's got a cheap and easy way to always see my stealthed behind. If he puts in tactics, ok i'm fair game I deserve to die when i'm found, more so as i don't have room in my planned build to waste on a +perception power. He put in the cost of power picks and I didn't, advantage blaster I won't deny it. But IR goggles? nope, it's unbalancing imho, same with the stealth reward you get from the patrol BB mission. I shouldn't "Need" it to stack with my stealth just to dodge IR goggle wearers or perception W...ladies of negotable affection :p

If not remove them outright, which i honestly think they should, they should be made to not stack with other powers. BOTH of them. It'd lessen that bullying aspect I feel all too well in pvp, and make them more of a choice, not a be all end all to survive.

I've dabbled a bit in pvp, but to be honest it really just feels like more of the same i've seen before, just wearing a different hat. And coming from a more casual aspect I can see it probably never will be for me unless some serious changes are made. There's too many underlying flaws in the system to make it the one thing it should be, and that's fun. regardless of AT, regardless of power picks, and regardless of style. But if being a "good" pvper means having the best loot (what little there is in coh/cov) the best gear (the must have power picks no better then the uber sword of leet smack, just repackaged under a new name) or the max level before i even consider it as some would say (a 12 should be at a disadvantage in BB, but it shouldn't be impossible for him to even hold his own) Then you guys can keep pvp,I'll leave it for the 5% or so of the hardcore population that love it, and write it off as another failure. Not to mention feel a bit disappointed that this usualy good dev team couldn't be the ones to get it right.

Solarfox

12-07-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do something about those. A breakfree will allow you to take action after a mez.

LightSide

12-07-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And, if they're not right now, mines should be targetable and susceptible to knockback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are Trip Mines even visible to the opponent in PvP?

That would seem to defeat their purpose... who would step on them if you could see them?

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
#2 He who has the most toys usually wins. And siren's call, 99% of the time hero dominated is where the big offender is, and it's name is IR goggles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in total agreement with you right up to here. You see I was expecting you to have a problem with Stalkers double-stealthed like most of the posts I see. It's interesting that you take the opposite view and suggests there is a fundamental problem with stealth and perception as they are currently.

I think it is the binary nature of stealth and perception that is the problem. I liked the idea I saw, I forget where, suggesting that the closer a stealthed character is to a player the less stealthy they become. I'm not convinced of the practicality of implementation but, then again, i'm not one of the devs who would have to code that. Thank goodness!

bigblack

12-07-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Patience does not = skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither does you saying = true

Ineffable_Bob

12-07-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, it's a one-shot. It's 4 powers, sure, but they're all from one toon and they hit all at the same time. Hide+Build Up+Assassin's Strike is a one-shot, too, even though it's 3 powers.

Q_Arkhan

12-07-2005, 03:28 PM

I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but

incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.

That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.

bigblack

12-07-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOesn't that also qualify as being without awareness?

A person without perception or defense or battle-awareness and readiness might want to consider coming back to PvP after they've selected some PvP-oriented attributes, such as perception and defense, battle-awareness and readiness. That, or they can come to terms with the fact that they are going to be facing opponents that are harder to fight than mission AI, who might have built their powers around PvP-oriented combat and actually prepared for this type of battle. Then, defeat won't hurt the pride so much that you run screaming to the forums looking for nerfs.

Heroes can and do thwart my assassination attempts - why can't you? Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is not in the design, but in your tactics and playstyle not being anywhere near where it needs to be to compete with people who actually built their characters for PvP, and practice it solo and with teams nightly?

trident042

12-07-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The the question at hand, do we look at it from a defender's perspective (no, or minimal, opportunity to react) or the attacker's perspective.

Quason - by State's definition, would a defender TP'd into a group of 3 blasters, all of whom hit their nukes, apply? What about stacked burn patches with Caltrops? To go back to the example of Caltrops + mines, what if each power was dropped by a different attacker?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just probing the boundaries as far as possible now, rather than later.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

Stacking multiple attacks is going to be nigh-impossible to block, and I think it should be allowed. It takes multiple powers, some basic tactics and, most importantly, time.

-- Warmaster

[/ QUOTE ]

This brings up another good point, and what I think may be the answer to what exactly we're trying to solve here. An Assassin Strike that kills a foe in one hit is a little over the top, because it's one hit from one enemy. The risk, however, is that either the victim has the opportunity to see it coming with +Perception, or the AS has the chance to miss, exposing and making vulnerable (and weak) the Stalker in question. The risk in this scenario = the reward, which is a one-hit kill, PROVIDED that the maximum Perception bonus can see over the maximum Hide/Stealth one can have. (I can't remember which maximum can be higher.) If the maximum Hide/Stealth is higher, then that would be unfair, because potentially anybody could be one-shotted and there's nothing that could be done about it.

However, in the scenario featuring multiple attacks combined by one set of Caltrops and a TP Foe, to the people saying that still counts as a one-shot, let me ask you this:

Have you ever taken an alpha strike from a mob of difficult foes in PvE and fallen from it? I would wager many of us have at one point or another. It's no different. The only main difference is the intrusive nature of TP Foe. To rectify, I suggest maybe providing more than two powers with TP resistance, and making it available to more people.

As to the Assassin Strike situation, I suggest this: If it is feasible given the code within the game, make Perception include a miniscule -Resistance to attacks made from a Hidden position. The more +Perception you have upon you, the more of a -Resistance debuff you get to Hidden attacks. The reason being - if you can see it coming... do something about it. Then, and here's the key element to this - make the damage from a hidden AS do just enough to leave a base-resistance player with a sliver of health, when slotted fully with Damage. (meaning 6 +3 SO's of damage leaves a player with no +Resistance sitting on nearly no health remaining) This way, if you can't avoid an AS you can SEE, you DIE from it. If you can't see the AS coming, you still have a chance to retaliate.

Win. Win. Scenario.

ThePaddedRoom

12-07-2005, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.:D

Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear" :p

Mantid

12-07-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, and from the program's side, it may be 3 or 4 attacks, but for all player perception and practicality, it is being one-shotted. What is the difference of being hit with one attack that kills you or being hit with 4 attacks either at the same time to so quickly that you have no time to react?

On the other hand, you could argue that a blaster who jumps into a n agroed group to try to nova them and is immediately killed is "one-shotted" too. So really the question is how can you prevent "one-shotting" from multiple attacks (as with the trip mines) but not protect players from sheer foolishness?

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but

incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.

That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

One possible correction for this would be some way to automate inspiration chewing, BTW. A macro command like

/HP_trigger [point] [action]

EXAMPLE" /HP_Trigger 25% "{that command that eats a specific type of inspiration set to eat a respite}"

of, if you are a defender /HP_Trigger 25% "powexec name healing aura"

Also nice would be

/END_Trigger

and even

/Status_trigger

Such commands would allow people to automate something to keep them alive between the first shot and the already queued second shot so they might actually be able to do more than watch their guy faceplant.

The_Josh

12-07-2005, 03:43 PM

It's four attacks, Castle...

And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.

Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.:D

Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear" :p

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to disagree here. Assuming that constant movement is effective against Stalkers and that all players learn this, Stalkers will need to do one of these:

1) Wait for the player to become bored of moving- No fun for either player

2)Wait for an unaware player to enter the zone - No fun for the, presumably, new player

3)Leave the Zone. No fun for the Stalker.

I think requesting that all other players move constantly to counter a threat some cannot perceive is not really a solution that leads to a fun PvP experience for more than about 2 minutes.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's four attacks, Castle...

And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.

Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it just shows that if changes to Stalker 1-shots are being enacted, other potential problems need to be fixed too or we just end up with another Fotm.

TezCatlipoca_NA

12-07-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...consider me blow away by this post. You KNOW that the computers AI is vastly different from a real player. You KNOW that even pathing for computer AI is differnt from the what a player can accomplish. Heck you even know that the computers AI make them execute power in specific orders. You teleport, it knows to face the direction that you teleported too ect ect.

You mean to tell me that a build that knows exactly how to handle the computer AI & only have the powers and pool abilitys to handle those contigencys should beable to do the same for a human intelligence who tactics are only limited by its imagination?

Wow...just...wow

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's four attacks, Castle...

And I think it also proves a nice point... People will complain that AS needs to be nerfed to NOT one shot, but people will complain to the PLAYER that TPFoe+Trip Mines is a cheap tactic. But NOT that they need to nerf Trip Mines.

Ironically, my two mains are a /dev and a Stalker.
Funny lil world, idn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it just shows that if changes to Stalker 1-shots are being enacted, other potential problems need to be fixed too or we just end up with another Fotm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up. It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.

Now what I don't get is why people seem to think that Stalkers are amazingly fragile, and that if they spend any time unhidden at all it's like instant death. It really isn't the case, it's not like stalkers take 500% damage when not hidden. Many people are disillusioned about this.

Stalkers aren't weak or particularly vulnerable when they're un-stealthed! If defenders, blasters, corruptors, controllers and dominators can survive and do well without stealth, then why the heck can't you?

Ninelives

12-07-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

don't forget TP foe!

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...consider me blow away by this post. You KNOW that the computers AI is vastly different from a real player. You KNOW that even pathing for computer AI is differnt from the what a player can accomplish. Heck you even know that the computers AI make them execute power in specific orders. You teleport, it knows to face the direction that you teleported too ect ect.

You mean to tell me that a build that knows exactly how to handle the computer AI & only have the powers and pool abilitys to handle those contigencys should beable to do the same for a human intelligence who tactics are only limited by its imagination?

Wow...just...wow

[/ QUOTE ]

No...clearly i don't mean that. That would be stupid.
I mean that a player should not require Tactics to fight a Stalker and a Stalker should not require double-Stealth to be able to fight heroes.

Builds don't know how to fight AI and other players. Players do. I'm blown away that you think it is your build that determines success in PvE and not your skill.

...And no, i'm not including the intentionally gimped or moronic builds that do exist. I was referring to a build from an 'average' player who has taken some care in building their character, without needing to become a number-cruncher or specialist in PvP.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's really that simple, then the devs could simply add an inherent toggle called scuffle that keeps your character shucking and jiving when you aren't actively moving. That would create this constant movement of which you speak.

Only problem is that such a power is only good against the Stalkers assasin's strike power and not against the other ATs that can 1 shot. Move all you want, you aren't going to screw with that unperceived Blaster's sniper shot/

Still, if people think the proper counter for AS is constant movement, then it shouldn't be a big deal to automate constant movement for people.

Q_Arkhan

12-07-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the complaint with "one-shotting" isn't so much a single attack, but

incoming damage over a 1-2 second period, so fast that you can't hit an INSP or a healing power before being dead.

That is a "one-shot", just as much as a single 4000HP attack from an AV is a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

One possible correction for this would be some way to automate inspiration chewing, BTW. A macro command like

/HP_trigger [point] [action]

EXAMPLE" /HP_Trigger 25% "{that command that eats a specific type of inspiration set to eat a respite}"

of, if you are a defender /HP_Trigger 25% "powexec name healing aura"

Also nice would be

/END_Trigger

and even

/Status_trigger

Such commands would allow people to automate something to keep them alive between the first shot and the already queued second shot so they might actually be able to do more than watch their guy faceplant.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

This topic was raised on the scrapper/stalker forums a week or so ago, about being able to put automated TRIGGERS on various powers, including HEALS.

Set a threshold and let the SERVER activate the heal or INSP for you.

I didn't see a problem with it. It has downsides to balance the upsides.

Ultra_Violence

12-07-2005, 04:12 PM

It certainly isn't one shotting since it takes a while to set up. It is a question of whether it is fun however. This sort of thing is just being a pain, little different than camping hospitals or whatever. It is defensible, but only if people want to take time out to constantly go hunt gankers. :p

_Ilr_

12-07-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

...Or how about TP'foeing a Player directly into a large +2 Tsoo spawn complete with Bosses? As was mentioned, the 1-shotting is occuring in the fact that Teleport-Foe can be used as an AlphaStrike. It's also related to AS'ing inronically enough. The solution of course, is Instead of an Accuracy-Check, a Velocity-Check needs to be done to determin whether the player could actually be hit with either of these Attacks assuming RL physics were applied. More-convenient coding is nice and all, but Concept is much more important, especially for a SuperHero/SciFi game.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
That requires no skill? So then why is it that I've lived thru AS before with multiple defenders. It's not a lock for a kill. If it were a no brainer it would work 100% of the time no matter what the stalker did. That isn't the case.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you force the stalker into a 2 shot then "you win" each time. The stalker can't live much longer after a failed AS. So we should doom the stalker because you don't like to play them? A bit selfish don't you think?

Oh, and you don't have to play a tanker or scrapper to defeat a stalker but you have to change your tactics. Are you against adapting to the situation or something? Why can't you pick up a perception boosting power, or team with someone who has it, or stay close to a teammate who can help? In other words .. adapt?

[/ QUOTE ]

You stalkers pretend you has no defense WHATSOEVER! There has been many times my HOed scrapper with his 2 perception powers (tons of ACC), still miss 2-3 times when trying to attack a stalker b4 he hits AS. You also have mez protection too. Compare it to blasters, yes they have ranged atts, but no mezz prot. Huge disadvantage but more bearable. So what your saying is that the WHOLE 2ndary powerset for stalkers is totally useless, other than hide? I guess the heals and defense buff are worthless. /sarcasm off.

The point of ED was so things like overpowered attacks would be less preveilant. Stalkers contradict to point.

Inazuma

12-07-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately 4 attacks. Aside from the seperate attack "rolls" the mines need to make, the time involved in laying everything out can be irritating. Plus, you then have to lure the mob into the trap, and they can attack you in the meantime.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.

/rolls eyes.

If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow popping greens dont work if your 1 shotted, Sherlock. And you ppl act like its soooo easy to build up +perception powers. Not all ppl enetering a pvp zone has a team rdy with the luxury of perception powers. As a matter of fact outside of Tactics (which its useless alone), scrappers, and some defender buffs there isnt many to go around. And finding 3 ppl on a team ALL with Tactics is tough. And dont even start with yellow.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it doesn't matter. Barring the situation of tackling stuff that is way beyond your level, getting one-shotted by anything is equivalent to the game randomly deciding it is time for you to die. Even getting 95% swatted isn't fun, since usually that other 5% has already been queued by another critter before you know what happened. And not being afforded an opportunity at all to respond isn't challenging in the sense that an adventure game is fun to play, it is challenging in the sense that draws people to Roulette or slot-machines.

So it really doesn't matter if what one-swatted you was a stalker, AV, nasty boss, or even a lucky minion. It sucks regardless of how it happens. Relying on random insta-death (from the dieing player's perspective) isn't challenging, it is a design crutch. It might have been fun back in the SNES days but this isn't Super Mario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

I dont mind getting 2 shotted. 2 shotted means I have a reasonable chance to heal, escape, retailiate. And I dont wanna be forced to play a more hearty, boring AT just bc there is a few ATs out there than have this 1 shotting advantage. Thats why I refuse to play blasters/stalkers. Hitting the "I win button" is pathetic. It requires no thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wanted to say that it does take skill to play a stalker.

That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wanted to laugh at that. Stalker really was "Easy Mode" for me. That's why I abandoned the AT. It just made every victory feel...cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldnt have said it better myself. :D

_Ilr_

12-07-2005, 04:36 PM

That's true as well. Having to rely on Insights wouldn't be that bad if the +PER lasted 2 minutes like most buffs ...And you could actually buy the damn things in Siren's Call(the favored hunting ground of most Stalkers).

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can't live much longer? Sorry ninja but that's if you have the brilliant idea of attempting an AS in the middle of multiple opponents. Other than that, you just placate and prepare AS again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and while the stalker placates you the target is completely helpless and is unable to I don't know use respites, +HP powers (like dull pain and such) or pop lucks so that AS misses so that the stalker does not stand a chance.

/rolls eyes.

If you hate stalkers so much why don't you get + perception powers. You don't go out in below zero weather butt naked then blame the weather because you got sick :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow popping greens dont work if your 1 shotted, Sherlock. And you ppl act like its soooo easy to build up +perception powers. Not all ppl enetering a pvp zone has a team rdy with the luxury of perception powers. As a matter of fact outside of Tactics (which its useless alone), scrappers, and some defender buffs there isnt many to go around. And finding 3 ppl on a team ALL with Tactics is tough. And dont even start with yellow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I didn't realize that respites and lucks were so powerful. I didn't think to look past the heal or +defense to see everything else they offered.

Had I known that popping a respite or luck meant that a stalker instantly stood no chance against me, I would've carried more.

EvilGeko

12-07-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does. Whether you devs are OK with that being a tactic or not is up to you.

My personal opinion is that PvP is unfair. And it never will be perfectly fair. Players will always come up with ways to take people out with no risk to themselves. At the end of the day, I think you devs should make it as fair as you can by whatever definition of fair you use and step back.

Garent

12-07-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!

[/ QUOTE ]
My defender eats stalkers for brunch. Especially those silly ninjutsu stalkers with their lack of knockback defence.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad example. There is alot more prep to that combo. TP foe or luring prey to a visible trap. Not a mobile, ultra stealth one shot killing machine.

Quason

12-07-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Had I known that popping a respite or luck meant that a stalker instantly stood no chance against me, I would've carried more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn the lack of "I Win" buttons in this game! :mad:

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe Statesman's criterion when he commented on the one-shot issue was that it eliminated player interaction. The defender had no role in the kill.

That's the case when you're TP Foed into caltrops and mines. There's no chance of interaction by the defender, they're immediately killed. So yeah, by that criterion it's a one-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about all the Holds/Sleep/Immobilzed/ETC. That pretty much elimintes my interaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being mezz isnt an insta-kill. You still have a chance to react or even use an inspiration.

Bill Z Bubba

12-07-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PVP requires no skill now if all a person has to do is make sure their victim has no perception powers/defense and one shot them. This becomes even easier when your victim is preoccupied with another opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOesn't that also qualify as being without awareness?

A person without perception or defense or battle-awareness and readiness might want to consider coming back to PvP after they've selected some PvP-oriented attributes, such as perception and defense, battle-awareness and readiness. That, or they can come to terms with the fact that they are going to be facing opponents that are harder to fight than mission AI, who might have built their powers around PvP-oriented combat and actually prepared for this type of battle. Then, defeat won't hurt the pride so much that you run screaming to the forums looking for nerfs.

Heroes can and do thwart my assassination attempts - why can't you? Has it occurred to you that perhaps the problem is not in the design, but in your tactics and playstyle not being anywhere near where it needs to be to compete with people who actually built their characters for PvP, and practice it solo and with teams nightly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to agree with this. We have 12 slots. There is absolutely NO reason why you can't build different characters for PvE and PvP. If you take a character into a PvP zone without building in the tools to keep yourself from getting one-shotted (death without retaliation allowed,) then that is YOUR fault.

It is NOT the fault of the design, it is NOT the fault of the stalker, or the TPfoe-ing /dev trip mine laying nasty.

If you want to be able to PvP, as a defender, you need to either build with the tactics of others in mind, or you need to strap yourself to a teammate that CAN defend against others' tactics.

UnknownBlade

12-07-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is ( Caltrops + Buildup + TP Foe + Placate + AS ) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks ?

CatMan

12-07-2005, 04:48 PM

Ummm.... 1 + 1*3 = 1 Uh-huh... yeah! :D

;) Gotta love the math they are teaching kids these days.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all scenarios where a defender is defeated without a chance to react. I think what is possible is the elimination of the defeat by a single attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

*nod* I think you're right. There's just always going to be situations where a player can be killed instantly or nearly-instantly without a chance to react. Just pointing out the fact that there are similarities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me or can't most of these PvP "problems" be solved by not standing still in a free fire zone. Seems to me that if I knew that I was going into a dangerous area, I'd be constantly ducking, dodging, and taking cover. If I cross the sign that says "now leaving the US controlled zone", I better put on my gear, get ready for battle, and put the pedal to the metal.:D

Maybe all of these problems can be solved by having the PvP zone rep say, "Standing around may get you killed." or maybe "Stalkers in mirror are closer than they appear" :p

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to disagree here. Assuming that constant movement is effective against Stalkers and that all players learn this, Stalkers will need to do one of these:

1) Wait for the player to become bored of moving- No fun for either player

2)Wait for an unaware player to enter the zone - No fun for the, presumably, new player

3)Leave the Zone. No fun for the Stalker.

I think requesting that all other players move constantly to counter a threat some cannot perceive is not really a solution that leads to a fun PvP experience for more than about 2 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

All a person has to do to get ASed is be stuck in an animation for more than 2 seconds, and then they are dead. This includes just replenishing a buff like Tactics, Assault, etc..
Its not some outlandish thing like having your thumb up yer [censored], bored out of your mind, standing still in a hot zone nonesense.

PVP zones are turning into FPS games. Its quite sad. I'm not here to play Counter-strike. And I have changed all my toons with the last respec to counter stalkers, it still doesnt change my views.

Seraphim_NA

12-07-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]
It is a one shot. You get hit by the teleport foe. And you die.
It's just as much a one shot as hide+buildup+assassins strike is.

People In this thread are arguing that it's not a one shot because there are more hit checks to contend with. However with AStrike you have to deal with people moving out of range, getting bumped, getting interrupted, being seen, and being in melee range without moving for 3 seconds.

The people in this game really need to realize that PvP is not about creating invulnerable characters. Every PvP build has a weakness. Look at guildwars. There isn't one perfect pvp build for a team. It's more like rock paper sizzors, which is how this game's pvp has always worked.

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 04:54 PM

The stalker can also activate assassins strike when a moving target brushes by them. It'll hit even if the target continues moving, even if they're miles away when it actually hits.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 04:54 PM

Why not build different characters for PvE and PvP? Time. It's that simple. Some people won't spend the time to level up a second character in order to be able to experience a small aspect of gameplay. Why should they? They won't know if it's fun unless they can devote the time to building their second character.

If players are required to build for PvP, then all you will ever see is a small population of hardcore PvPers. This is a good way of killing off PvP for the majority of CoX players.

Obtenebrator

12-07-2005, 04:55 PM

(Referring to setting up a Caltrop and Trip Mine field:)

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up. It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.

[/ QUOTE ]
And taking the time to set up an AS shouldn't be?

[ QUOTE ]
If defenders, blasters, corruptors, controllers and dominators can survive and do well without stealth, then why the heck can't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Does The_Josh use his Cloaking Device while setting up his trap? Then he's not without stealth, is he?

All of those archetypes have ranged attacks. Stalkers do not. Melee range multiplies risks significantly.

Finally, everyone has access to the Concealment pool. Stealth is an option for everyone in the game. Stalkers are only unique in that ALL of them have stealth, and they can stack it.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to powers I think that players should be able to engage in PvP without requiring a specific build; it discourages casual play in the long-term. As for IR goggles...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't build PvP believe it or not. However, I believe those who do build for PvP will always have an advantage over those who PvP casually and don't specifically build for it. You can't blame anybody for that. When you don't build for PvP and go for a more casual PvE build, you can't complain that you don't have the tools you want/need to do as well as others in PvP.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens when heroes don't have control of the zone? What about a level 20 character with no influence? They shouldn't go into Siren's Call? That seems a bit harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same thing that happens when villains don't have the zone. You think I can see that Illusion Controller with Superior Invis? Or that Blaster running Stealth and Super Speed? I can't. The difference is, I don't have access to the IR goggles that the heroes do atm - yet you still don't see me complaining.

Q_Arkhan

12-07-2005, 05:00 PM

He didn't ask "Is it ONE attack?"

He asked if it was a "ONE-SHOT"

It is 4 attacks, with 4 rolls, but it qualifies easily at a ONE-SHOT.

MY definition of a one-shot:

"Enough incoming damage to KILL YOU, compressed into a time period too brief to all you to do ANYTHING about it"

ONE-SHOTs can be the result of more than one attack and often is.

JohnPreston

12-07-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call it ouch.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 05:04 PM

Yeah and it was great when I was running around with 3 Phantasm and was able to stack 3-4 LRs on ya. The point is everything gets tweeked for some concept of balance. I havent spoke against stalkers til recently, bc i didnt want to make an impartial arguement based on so little time. But now its clear they need fixing.

And way back when ILL/rad where dominating in the arena stacking slow I called a nerf to my own favorite toon b4 they ever considered the nerf to LR. This was bc at a certain point I couldnt get a damn match.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't build PvP believe it or not. However, I believe those who do build for PvP will always have an advantage over those who PvP casually and don't specifically build for it. You can't blame anybody for that. When you don't build for PvP and go for a more casual PvE build, you can't complain that you don't have the tools you want/need to do as well as others in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a big problem with this. I think all players (with a viable PvE build) should have a chance in PvP though. Even if it is a small chance. A repeatable 1-shot that a player cannot respond to will become a larger problem over time.

[ QUOTE ]
The same thing that happens when villains don't have the zone. You think I can see that Illusion Controller with Superior Invis? Or that Blaster running Stealth and Super Speed? I can't. The difference is, I don't have access to the IR goggles that the heroes do atm - yet you still don't see me complaining.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree this is not balanced PvP and I would hope the devs look at it.

Bill Z Bubba

12-07-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If players are required to build for PvP, then all you will ever see is a small population of hardcore PvPers. This is a good way of killing off PvP for the majority of CoX players.

[/ QUOTE ]

And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV.

Just to note, I don't play stalkers OR /dev blasters. Matter of fact, the only possibility any of my characters have of one shotting a squishie is my brute, with a full fury bar, buildup and energy transfer.

Should fury, ET and buildup be nerfed?

Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV...Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.

Zloth

12-07-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This topic was raised on the scrapper/stalker forums a week or so ago, about being able to put automated TRIGGERS on various powers, including HEALS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh, no. That does sound fun to me but it's going to be way too much work for way too many people to have to go programming powers in. PvP will start to become more a war of triggers and programming skill.

The problem isn't really one shots at all. It's attacks for which there's no viable defense. If somebody sets up shop with multiple trip mines in front of a nice, friendly boss turret then teleports, what are you supposed to do about it? Defense-oriented classes might have a chance. Keeping a purple inspire going the entire time would probably work. This really doesn't strike me as reasonable, though. Not far off but not quite there.

I would suggest changing the animation for teleport a little bit. Give us an effect before we get teleported so we have roughly one second before it hits. That will let us hit an inspire or a power if we're quick. The tactic would still get a lot of folks but death would no longer be inevidable.

With stalker one shots, Idunno. I've got a stalker with Assassin Strike but I haven't used it enough to know the details of how it works.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV...Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS.

Perception Abilities
Plenty of these found in-game and they stack to increase your peception that much more. You see the Stalker now - avoid him or her and you've avoided the AS.

Interruptables
Repel, Hurricane, Blazing Aura, Frozen Aura, Snow Storm, Earthquake... The list goes on.

I think the problem is that players want to not worry about being AS'd at all instead of being given the tools to avoid one because it's takes a certain amount of effort on their part.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call it a "One Shot".

Reason being is unless you're lucky enough to have a power that received TP Foe protection in one of the most recent patches, there's not much you can do unless you just happen to be flying at the time.

Also the Blaster doing it is perched in a conspicuous area, safe from everything.

With Assassination Strike, the Stalker has to be in melee range - meaning even though he/she can't be seen by most, they can still be hit by targetted AOE powers like Caltrops, Taunt, Flamethrower, Full Auto, Fireball, etc which reveals their prescence.

Also like I said before, perception powers reveal a Stalker like you wouldn't imagine. I can't go into a PvP zone without seeing every hero with goggles on.

Basically the Stalker has to work to get the "one shot" while the Blaster does not.

The_Josh

12-07-2005, 05:24 PM

Addressing two posts here...

First, Quizzless!!1one

[ QUOTE ]

Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up.

[/ QUOTE ]
True. Anyone with perception can come and r4p3x0r me.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree, but it only works about 25% of the time... You have to wait until your target isn't moving, TPFoe them, web grenade them. Even then, if they're not moving, it works about
half the time on squishies...
[ QUOTE ]

Now what I don't get is why people seem to think that Stalkers are amazingly fragile, and that if they spend any time unhidden at all it's like instant death.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have defender/controller HP, IIRC... I don't have the exact numbers, but what I DO know, is BU+AS will NOT kill a blaster, but it WILL kill a stalker. Also, it's a LOT harder to AS someone in motion than it is to AS someone standing still... In PvP, Stalkers have to actually... STALK their prey for it to work properly.

Infinity, Warburg... Quizzles' toon Dark Azsmo is hanging out, I tele-gank him, Quizzles threatens me in broadcast and comes and hunts me down...

In a non-telegank situation (i.e. he knows I'm there) I win about half the time. Just food for thought...

Now for Obtenebrator:

[ QUOTE ]
Does The_Josh use his Cloaking Device while setting up his trap? Then he's not without stealth, is he?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do, in fact, have stealth. It takes about 2 minutes to set up, then you have to wait for someone to get in range of TPFoe, then hope for the best... It's not anywhere NEAR reliable or efficient, the one thing it has is that it's unexpected.

[ QUOTE ]
All of those archetypes have ranged attacks. Stalkers do not. Melee range multiplies risks significantly.

[/ QUOTE ] Very valid point... If a blaster sees a stalker, and the blaster doesn't let the stalker knows he's been seen... That's really, REALLY dangerous for the stalker.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, everyone has access to the Concealment pool. Stealth is an option for everyone in the game. Stalkers are only unique in that ALL of them have stealth, and they can stack it.

[/ QUOTE ] Also valid.

Bottom line, guys... I don't think that 3 trip mines=instagank for squishies should be nerfed.

I don't think Stalkers should be nerfed.

Why? Simple; I'm a stalker, I'm a tele-ganker. In BOTH examples, my rate of success (i.e. I kill them without them killing me) is approximately the same. The one thing stalkers have over the tele-gank technique is that we can MOVE around while stalking, instead of waiting for prey to get near us.

However, I've also recently stated that I think TPFoe needs to be nerfed for PVP ONLY. I think it should either A)work on a magnitude system like mez (meaning to TPfoe someone, two players must TPfoe the same target player within 10 seconds of each other or so) or B) have it's accuracy capped at 33%, non-enhanceable. Also, when TPFoe fails, the target player's target switches to the failed TPFoe-er.

I've been AS'd on my blaster plenty of times, so I've been on both ends... Just my .02

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS

Perception Abilities

[/ QUOTE ]These seem to be either build options, IR goggles or yellows. Of these only yellows are close to being a reaction to a Stalker attack, and of course they will only be activated after the Stalker has used their AS.
[ QUOTE ]
Interruptables

[/ QUOTE ]
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.

Although these do allow a player to prevent an AS I would consider that having to avoid these effects is not much fun for a Stalker, or for the player having to take these measures.

icon25

12-07-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by your argument AS isn't a 1 shot either,becouse AS by it self wouldn't kill any AT,u have to BU+AS,that's 2 powers as well.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by your argument AS isn't a 1 shot either,becouse AS by it self wouldn't kill any AT,u have to BU+AS,that's 2 powers as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean. I would say that AS is 1 attack and is therefore a 1-shot. By that character the load of Trip Mines on their own would also be a 1-shot. Provided the player has a chance to react to either attack before being killed, I have no problem with this. However, as discussed earlier, the TP foe into the Trip Mines is the real problem as running into a bunch of Trip Mines is not a very clever thing to do.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS
Perception AbilitiesThese seem to be either build options, IR goggles or yellows. Of these only yellows are close to being a reaction to a Stalker attack, and of course they will only be activated after the Stalker has used their AS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.

And you left out Aim, Tactics, Targetting Drone, Focused Accuracy (though that can't be used in Siren's Call), the fact that Tanks and Scrappers get enhanced perception in PvP and I know I'm forgetting a few others.

[ QUOTE ]
Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.

I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.

[ QUOTE ]
Although these do allow a player to prevent an AS I would consider that having to avoid these effects is not much fun for a Stalker, or for the player having to take these measures.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having to avoid them can be fun. It's a game of cat and mouse. Some builds I can run up and AS on, others I have to be more creative sneaky with.

Ryko_Nailo

12-07-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my book no that is not a one shot unless followed by a tp foe onto the mines because that gives you no chance to fight where as if you accidentally or were strategicaly moved onto it was by your choice and you deserve the damage.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it. You're right it's not the Stalkers problem. The options aren't there for all builds though. What is the advice for players whose viable PvE builds don't contain these powers?

Stay out of PvP? Start a new character?

Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?

_mr3_

12-07-2005, 06:06 PM

this is going to sound like covered ground here, but believe me it's not. what is it that you think is broken, exactly? is it just stalkers because a.s. lets them 1-shot you? or is it that there are situations the game lets you get into where you can be killed without a chance to respond? if you don't like stalkers 1-shotting you then i can understand where you're coming from, but you know we can be 1-shotted by a lot of things, not just stalkers. and i get the feeling it isn't really 1-shotting that's got you concerned...it's really situations where you can be killed with no warning or ability to respond.

i sympathize there, but again there's no reasonable way to prevent this from happening in pvp. for example, we could cut stalker a.s. damage in half and stalkers will just find another way to kill us without allowing us a chance to respond. if you don't believe me just ask for examples, a lot of folks can likely rattle out a list of tactics that can be used to kill unprepared squishies without allowing for response time. and if the devs put in a safeguard so we as targets couldn't go from near-full-health to 0 from one attack, then someone could just tweak their attack chain and still kill us. without allowing for a response. if the devs tried to go even further and add on a period of "response time" there where your last hp can't be taken by someone after an otherwise-1-shot...then that person can just open their attack sequence with an attack that would prevent you from responding for an extended period of time (ex. knockdown/knockback, which prevents *any response at all*) and then follow up with other attacks to finish the job. i really don't think you can have a reasonable pvp combat system with effective guards built into the system to prevent this.

if you're really trying to single out stalkers, and you're saying that assassin strike is too powerful, i just don't think you can. the entire at is built around the idea of letting them kill quickly without much warning. what do you want? do you want a.s. to allow the target--say--a half second of guaranteed response time? i really don't think it'll help...believe me they'll find a way to catch you by surprise still. and giving a target much more response time than that would kill the utility of stalkers. it really doesn't take much "help" from the at's powers to allow someone to kill without warning or the provision of response time...because stalkers are just one example of an a.t. that's capable of this. and with stalkers alone, i guarantee that if any of us wanted to, we could get around any reasonable dev attempt to prevent stalkers from being able to kill someone without warning or response time. sure, they could design in a grace period where you cannot die, and stalkers could just simply use strategy and an attack sequence to minimize or completely remove your ability to actually respond during that time (reasonably at least).

so the deal is, people are going to be able to gank squishies without much warning, a.s. or no a.s. at all. it's inherent in pvp with toon types that are different enough through hitpoints to make things interesting. it's a whole different ballgame though if you want to start talking about playing in a way that *minimizes the ability* of someone to kill you without warning. you can do this with any a.t., squishies included. sure, you won't always be able to prevent getting ganked without warning. but it's like home or network security: you can make yourself a really hard target, and stalkers looking for easy prey may just look elsewhere ;). and that gives you more time to...say...hunt stalkers for revenge.

ps. to the people here going on the offensive: what's with all the nastiness? i mean, really?

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it. You're right it's not the Stalkers problem. The options aren't there for all builds though. What is the advice for players whose viable PvE builds don't contain these powers?

Stay out of PvP? Start a new character?

Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that any build should be able to hold it's own in PvP, that's not the case though. Many of heroes can't PvP to save their lives (including my AR/Dev) because I refuse change them around solely for PvP and I had to accept that. Some builds are naturally going to do better than others.

If you know you're going to PvP you have three options:

1. Build for PvP and do very well.
2. Don't build for PvP and take your chances.
3. Make a build balanced for PvE and PvP.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 06:14 PM

I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

Lokana

12-07-2005, 06:18 PM

I've watched /Dev Blasters in Warburg, stand on a ledge and lay mines in one spot, then drop caltrops there, and use TP Foe to port an enemy right on it. I watched a Blaster instantly kill a Scrapper doing that.

For the record, just hitting AS alone can't one shot anyone. You need to use Build Up first, which your enemies can some time hear a Stalker do and run away from the sound before the Stalker can hit AS.

Also for the record, even though a Blaster can one shot a Stalker, a Stalker can't one shot a Blaster. Even in Warburg where the heroes had -15% Res and the Villains had +15% Damage(because of us villains having no one else our level to team with so we solo missions in Warburg for the extra xp), but even with all those bonuses, and my hitting a tiny red with three green damage SOs in AS, I still couldn't one shot a Blaster... though I left them with a sliver. If they hit respits before my next attack hit, then I'd have to run. But if they panicked and ran or stayed to fight thinking maybe Defiance would kick in, then I just needed one follow up attack to hit and they were gone.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:21 PM

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've watched /Dev Blasters in Warburg, stand on a ledge and lay mines in one spot, then drop caltrops there, and use TP Foe to port an enemy right on it. I watched a Blaster instantly kill a Scrapper doing that.

For the record, just hitting AS alone can't one shot anyone. You need to use Build Up first, which your enemies can some time hear a Stalker do and run away from the sound before the Stalker can hit AS.

Also for the record, even though a Blaster can one shot a Stalker, a Stalker can't one shot a Blaster. Even in Warburg where the heroes had -15% Res and the Villains had +15% Damage(because of us villains having no one else our level to team with so we solo missions in Warburg for the extra xp), but even with all those bonuses, and my hitting a tiny red with three green damage SOs in AS, I still couldn't one shot a Blaster... though I left them with a sliver. If they hit respits before my next attack hit, then I'd have to run. But if they panicked and ran or stayed to fight thinking maybe Defiance would kick in, then I just needed one follow up attack to hit and they were gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Admittedly, I haven't got the chance to run around in Warburg with my Stalker yet, but I don't see how a Blaster can't be one-shotted there. From my understanding, Warburg exemps you to lvl38(?), so any Blasters with APP res shields like Temp Inv or Fire Shield don't have access to them.

Now I have come across Blasters who I couldn't one-shot in Siren's, but I won't sit here and say that I don't one-shot seven out of ten Blasters.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.

The_Josh

12-07-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about a guaranteed chance to avoid the situation entirely?

That would be what stacking +perception does...

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 06:31 PM

As said previously, yellows are not a response to a Stalker attack. They are a precaution. Yellow insps at this time are roughly equivalent to the old discipline insp. Remember how popular they were?

I don't think players should be able to avoid AS entirely and in a reliable manner. This would cause Stalkers too many problems.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As said previously, yellows are not a response to a Stalker attack. They are a precaution. Yellow insps at this time are roughly equivalent to the old discipline insp. Remember how popular they were?

I don't think players should be able to avoid AS entirely and in a reliable manner. This would cause Stalkers too many problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you're not understanding is that options are there to eliminate a Stalker getting the jump on you - it's whether or not you want to make use of them.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.

I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with interuptable AOEs are that stalkers are defensive sets and alot of the time the AOE dont even land.

Aeonian

12-07-2005, 06:46 PM

What you're not getting is that I don't want to eliminate Stalkers getting the jump on me. I want them to be able to get the jump on everyone. I want there to be a risk for all parties engaging in PvP and that means there needs to be a chance to react to an otherwise insta-kill attack. Snipes or AS.

Making it so that all players who enter PvP learn that they must stack +perception will lead to either - Stalkers whose stealth is worthless or Heroes who cannot respond to being ganked. It will also lead to casual players not engaging in PvP.

Castle

12-07-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This was exactly my point.

PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interruptables
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you're in an open PvP zone, you know Stalkers are running around. If you choose not to turn on a toggle that prevents an AS, it's your fault if it happens to you. That's just common sense.

I've never once had a Kin Controller or Defender yell at me cause I AS'd them - they blamed themselves because they forgot to turn on Repel.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with interuptable AOEs are that stalkers are defensive sets and alot of the time the AOE dont even land.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not accurate at all.

My Stalker is always interrupted by those powers. Always.

My secondary provides res to the actual knockback of things like Repel and Hurricane, but there's no way I can AS a character that has them if I'm standing right next to them. If I'm careful using Fly or a fly temp power, I may being able to AS someone with Hurricane.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.

You can't RESPOND to a one shot.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.

You can't RESPOND to a one shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).

You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.

The_Josh

12-07-2005, 07:00 PM

See, that's just it... ANY player that PvPs regularly already knows to stack perception... And I wasn't talking about insights, I was talking about tactics stacking, mostly, because it's available to anyone.

Three players, three tactics=Stalkers bane.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a response. It only does you any good if you hit it BEFORE the Stalker attacks.

A response genreally comes AFTER the stimulus.

Circuit_Boy

12-07-2005, 07:06 PM

_Castle_:

With all due respect, this seems to be a way to avoid dealing with some of the realities of PvP.

As my post regarding Siren's Call demonstrates, with Build-Up and one (1) Enrage, Stalkers can easily one-shot Controllers, Defenders, Peacebringers (Human/Nova), and Warshades (Human/Nova).

Furthermore, Trip Mine is only available to certain secondary powersets (Blasters' */Devices, Masterminds' */Traps, and Corruptors' */Traps, I believe). Not every Blaster, Mastermind, or Corruptor even has access to the power.

Every single Stalker has Assassin's Strike or some variation of it, however.

It's not a "Trick Question" as much as it is a "Red Herring" to distract away from the issue of the easy Stalker one-shot kill.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like yellow insps are a response to Stalkers being hidden.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a response. It only does you any good if you hit it BEFORE the Stalker attacks.

A response genreally comes AFTER the stimulus.

[/ QUOTE ]

He said a response to the Stalker being hidden, not the Stalker attacking.

The point you're missing is that Stalker Assassination Strikes can be stopped before they even happen through various methods. You don't need to respond to an attack if you can avoid it happening in the first place.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 07:07 PM

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
_Castle_:

With all due respect, this seems to be a semantic game to avoid dealing with some of the realities of PvP.

As my post regarding Siren's Call demonstrates, with Build-Up and one (1) Enrage, Stalkers can easily one-shot Controllers, Defenders, Peacebringers (Human/Nova), and Warshades (Human/Nova).

Furthermore, Trip Mine is only available to certain secondary powersets (Blasters' */Devices, Masterminds' */Traps, and Corruptors' */Traps, I believe). Not every Blaster, Mastermind, or Corruptor even has access to the power.

Every single Stalker has Assassin's Strike or some variation of it, however.

It's not a "Trick Question" as it is a "Red Herring" to distract away from the issue of the easy Stalker one-shot kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again - another post about responding to an attack. How about preventing it? There's more than enough tools out there to detect a Stalker.

This point seems to get ignored.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.

You can't RESPOND to a one shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).

You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.

You can do the math from there.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we not have Break Frees instead of Disciplines. Because Disciplines were unable to be reactive and let you RESPOND to a status effect.

You can't RESPOND to a one shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but you can PREVENT it from happening in the first place (for Stalkers).

You can't tell me otherwise because I've played against people of all ATs who've managed to avoid AS one way or another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.

You can do the math from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

Markus

12-07-2005, 07:13 PM

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again - another post about responding to an attack. How about preventing it? There's more than enough tools out there to detect a Stalker.

This point seems to get ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

As does this point.

Before the arena there was a perfectly good way to PREVENT a status effect. It was called the DISCIPLINE INSPIRATION.

For some reason, people did not seem to feel it was enough to be able to PREVENT that kind of attack in PVP, they wanted a way to RESPOND to it.

Thus we have break-frees. Which BOTH PREVENT AND REVERSE status effects.

If it's a sufficient solution to be able to PREVENT only, let's eliminate break-frees and turn them back into DISCIPLINES. Let's see how fun PVP is then.

If you find that untenable, perhapse you might explain how the situation is significantly different here?

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Circuit_Boy

12-07-2005, 07:26 PM

Revolver_Law:

There are not that many tools to prevent a Stalker one-shot.

1) There are a tiny handful of auto-hit Aura powers. Five? Six? They are scattered across a number of ATs secondaries. If you weren't lucky enough to pick one of those ATs, you're just SOL on that front.

2) PBAOE powers. These not only have the same problem of availability that the auto-hit Aura powers do, but they also have to hit. Realistically, this is only going to happen against */Regen Stalkers. There are plenty of posts over on the Blaster Boards of people specifically testing Lightning Field with three (3) Single-Origin Accuracy Enhancements slotted and it still only hit a Defense Set (which comprise the other secondaries) Stalker 10% of the time. These are simply not a reliable defense, even if a person's AT has access to them. Most simply don't.

3) It requires not one +Perception power. Not two +Perception powers. It requies three +Perception powers to detect Stealth + Hide. This requires that a hero be lucky enough to have access to Glacial Shield (Ice/* Tankers), Minerals (Stone/* Tankers), Focused Senses (*/Super Reflexes Scrappers), Cloak of Shadows (*/Dark Armor Scrappers), Targetting Drone (*/Devices Blasters), or Shadow Cloak (Warshades); AND Tactics; AND buy IR Goggles. If you do not have access to one of the above powers, you're just SOL; as has been confirmed repeatedly, if you're not a Defender, Tactics and IR Goggles will not be enough to see a Stalker who's using Stealth + Hide at the same time.

A long time ago, the Developers said they did not want to "require" players to take any specific Power Pool power. These statements were made in the context of Hasten and Stamina, but this is really the same issue: if someone wants to engage in PvP, he or she will need to take Tactics if he or she is a hero. Furthermore, he or she will need to know several others who have also taken Tactics and/or he or she will have to lay down 10k Influence every 30 minutes to keep PvPing.

icon25

12-07-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is happening in WoW from the 1st day it come out,rogues can come to u stealthed,and get a Stun lock on u,u were dead in like 4 or 5 attack and u couldn't even move on that time,that is still happening now,that's the way that stealth a toon deal with things becouse on all the games they are week other wise,the diference is that in WoW (to make thigs whorse) any levels can enter a "contested area",so u could be killed for a player 40 levels over u,i don't think that u have to much time to react on that situation as well,at least on this game all players are at the same level on a given area.
Sorry for my spelling !!

WenDarkFall

12-07-2005, 07:29 PM

You are forgetting one of the easiest ways to prevent a AS strike. Its also one of the the hardest learned lessons non-combat experience aviators in a war zone ever get...

KEEP MOVING!

If you don't move - you are just a target. And your probably dead. Its one of the reasons experience pilots have low attrition rates...

Also any aoe effect around you will interupt a strike - even if you don't see it coming..

PvP zones are WAR ZONES!

See him first...
set up defences...
keep moving - or your probably going to die...its the same in any PvP fight..Stand there - give THEM the initiative...expect to die...

Blue_Electron

12-07-2005, 07:34 PM

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Revolver_Law:

There are not that many tools to prevent a Stalker one-shot.

1) There are a tiny handful of auto-hit Aura powers. Five? Six? They are scattered across a number of ATs secondaries. If you weren't lucky enough to pick one of those ATs, you're just SOL on that front.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a post about this in the Stalker forums - there are plenty Aura powers - some of which Blasters have in their secondaries.

[ QUOTE ]
2) PBAOE powers. These not only have the same problem of availability that the auto-hit Aura powers do, but they also have to hit. Realistically, this is only going to happen against */Regen Stalkers. There are plenty of posts over on the Blaster Boards of people specifically testing Lightning Field with three (3) Single-Origin Accuracy Enhancements slotted and it still only hit a Defense Set (which comprise the other secondaries) Stalker 10% of the time. These are simply not a reliable defense, even if a person's AT has access to them. Most simply don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in a previous post, these hit VERY often. I haven't had an instance where I wasn't hit.

[ QUOTE ]
3) It requires not one +Perception power. Not two +Perception powers. It requies three +Perception powers to detect Stealth + Hide. This requires that a hero be lucky enough to have access to Glacial Shield (Ice/* Tankers), Minerals (Stone/* Tankers), Focused Senses (*/Super Reflexes Scrappers), Cloak of Shadows (*/Dark Armor Scrappers), Targetting Drone (*/Devices Blasters), or Shadow Cloak (Warshades); AND Tactics; AND buy IR Goggles. If you do not have access to one of the above powers, you're just SOL; as has been confirmed repeatedly, if you're not a Defender, Tactics and IR Goggles will not be enough to see a Stalker who's using Stealth + Hide at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I run Hide and Stealth and can be seen by a Scrapper/Tank with only IR, a Dev Blaster with only Targetting Drone, Trollers/Defenders with Tactics+IR.

So it doesn't take three powers.

[ QUOTE ]
A long time ago, the Developers said they did not want to "require" players to take any specific Power Pool power. These statements were made in the context of Hasten and Stamina, but this is really the same issue: if someone wants to engage in PvP, he or she will need to take Tactics if he or she is a hero. Furthermore, he or she will need to know several others who have also taken Tactics and/or he or she will have to lay down 10k Influence every 30 minutes to keep PvPing.

[/ QUOTE ]

We both know that's BS. If that were true I wouldn't have to take TP Foe to make my main somewhat useful in PvP (which I refuse to do). It's a nice thought, but you and I both know it's just lip service.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.

Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.

I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.

They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?

SuperDave7

12-07-2005, 07:59 PM

you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken :p

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 08:00 PM

JohnPreston

12-07-2005, 08:05 PM

I saw a tanker do almost 300 damage with a single attack in Siren's Call.

I've heard a lot of people say Tankers do "poor damage" in comparison to Scrappers and Blasters.

:eek:

Circuit_Boy

12-07-2005, 08:05 PM

Revolver_Law:

There's only one Blaster auto-hit Aura power: Chilling Embrace. No others. Sorry, Charlie, but you're wrong on that point.

Second, read this thread about Lightning Field in PvP (link) (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4166587&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#4166587). That should more than adequately put to rest your claim that these "hit VERY often". They don't. Without Aim or Build-Up, it's going to be around 10%. I don't know about you, but that's not "VERY often" to me.

Third, _Castle_ posted here (Click Link): (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=4231060& Forum=,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Lim it=25&Main=4128679&Search=true&where=&Name=134522& daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post4231060)

[ QUOTE ]
You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power. Looking at the math, we can see the following:

IR Goggles give a straight 15% bonus to perception range, 50% of the time (checked every 10 seconds.)
Tactics gives a base 20% bonus, modified by your AT Type and your level. Assuming level 35, that gives you perception of ~775 ft. If you were a Defender, the value would be ~930 ft. A level 35 Stalker with Hide and Stealth has a Stealth radius of ~900 ft. That means a Defender could see the Stalker at ~30ft while the Scrapper cannot see them.

Edit: The above numbers assume the Scrapper and Defender are the power users. If the Defender has the Tactics, then both use the Defender value, while if the Scrapper has the Tactics, both use the Scrapper value. [emphasis mine]

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless _Castle_ is mistaken, you should not be seen by Tankers/Scrappers using just IR Goggles or Controllers with IR Goggles & Tactics. Perhaps _Castle_ was mistaken?

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 08:08 PM

SuicidalManiac

12-07-2005, 08:08 PM

For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.

And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.

And people can see us in pvp even with stealth.

AS is a big endurence drain if you have to toggle it more than once in order to try to get it to execute so by time one locks a stalker may have no endurence to fight back with.

In the long run any class has it's weaknesses and has its strengths.

StrykerX

12-07-2005, 08:09 PM

Whether the +perception from inspirations stacks or not is irrelevant... you can't realistically run around with multiple Insights active all the time. They don't last long enough. Unless you want to keep running back and buying more Insights every 3 minutes...

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 08:10 PM

It might be hard to find the right moment, but you're in relative safety the entire time.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken :p

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Cute. Funny. Unless it can allow you to be on the offensive within 1 second, not really a solution.

Million

12-07-2005, 08:15 PM

<<There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify. >>

Why not apply whatever reasoning was used to remove one shot endurence drain from pvp?

Or one shot blaster nuke from instantly killing players?

Sorry i must dissent. Please, lets not sit here and say AS is the first time the "one shot" issue has come up. 2nd, do not lump the AS situation with others, claiming that all one shot situations can be alleviated by the same bandaid. Why?

Honestly, if you nerf or tank AS damage, what good are the stalkers going to be? Let's face it, they aren't exactly an AT that can go deep into the bench. You will end up with a similar situation as end drain...an utterly useless pvp power that has a great disparity from its pve counterpart, forcing those players to pick between a pvecentric build and pvpcentric build.

Castle, please do not make the same mistake that was made with end drain.

Pilcrow

12-07-2005, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.

Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.

I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.

They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?

[/ QUOTE ]

Situations are different. Any build can get +perception powers to help detect a Stalker. You can't say the same about holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could swear there were some mez protection powers in the power pools. I could swear there were some mez protections in the shared pools. I guess I eas wrong, since some builds apparently cannot get mez protection.

Circuit_Boy

12-07-2005, 08:18 PM

Hear-hear, Million!

Let me alter the last statement slightly:

"_Castle_, please undo the mistake that was made with Endurance Drain."

Pilcrow:

Combat Jumping will mitigate against Immobilization. Acrobatics will mitigate against Holds. The protections on both are fairly weak, but better than zip. This is why a lot of Blasters take the Leaping Power Pool--I didn't, but I know why others did.

Also, Health will reduce the duration of Sleep effects (though it won't prevent them), and certain powers out of the Medicine Power Pool have effects, though I've largely forgotten what they are. (Aid Self will reduce Disorient Duration, right?)

Track_Star

12-07-2005, 08:20 PM

Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'

Mieux

12-07-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This was exactly my point.

PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

[/ QUOTE ]

I submit...it is not the one-shot that is the problem, it is the feeling that one cannot avoid the one shot and the constant annoyance of reoccuring attempts. I have no issue with running up to a blaster and getting killed by all the mines he or she has laid down. I'd have a problem if that blaster could use an "invisible hand" and get me from anywhere on the map....and there were ridiculously few powers or ways to stop it.

I don't have a problem if I see a brute teamed with three Kinetics Corruptors ...who fire Fulcrum Shift...and I get one shot.

While in Siren's, I get TP Foe'd into a throng of MM's with Tar Patch and minions ..good for them. I saw where they set up and stayed out of range.

But getting one-shot when you can't see the target...or knowing that if the one-shot misses, you still won't be able to defeat the target is not "Fun" (tm) for anyone but the person doing the killing.

It's fun to fight Stalkers who can one-shot me...provided that I can see them...and have an opportunity to stop the one shot...even when I don't succeed and still get one-shotted.

But the inviso + one-shotting + escaping feels like griefing = not Fun.

I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers? Wouldn't that be a fair trade off for PvP?....risk=reward?

As you point out...trying to stop "one-shotting" is a like chasing your tail. There is no functional difference between getting one-shotted versus ten shotted if you feel like you have no recourse in either situation.

However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.

Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?

So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?

Hibernoob

12-07-2005, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes think it's funny when the Stalker comment on how whiny everyone is. They should read some of their own posts sometimes.

In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, literally LOL'd on this one. Almost a ROFL, but my floor is pretty dirty and I stopped myself.

Hibernoob

12-07-2005, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?

THAT would be unbalanced!

RachelRiley

12-07-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hear-hear, Million!

Let me alter the last statement slightly:

"_Castle_, please undo the mistake that was made with Endurance Drain."

[/ QUOTE ]

???? Soooo.... In other words....

"Gimme my super ability back"

Soooo.... You nerf herd stalkers because somebody nerfed your power set? If end drain makes a comeback, something I would support, you'll sit down and shut up about Stalkers?

Didnt think so... Let the crusade continue as scheduled...

Circuit_Boy

12-07-2005, 08:31 PM

RachelRiley:

No, I just want consistency. If Endurance Drain is "overpowered for PvP", then so is one-shot killing people.

Sheva

12-07-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question:

Is Caltrops + (Trip Mine * 3) a "One Shot" or is it 4 attacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

well lets compair AS and Trip Mines really quick...

AS- 15 sec recharge with a 4 sec activation, dose not seam to supress travel powers, can be used in the air, it travels with you and can get anyone if you can get close enuff witch is not hard with hide+stealth combo

Trip Mines - 10.18 recharge (with 3 50++ recharge SO) 4 sec activation time, takes 4-5 and on average to kill some one so thats 56.72sec (if you only put down 4) that anyone even a stalker could sneak up on you while your putting them down, cant be used in the air, only 2 ways for it to work for you 1: TP people onto them if they get close enuff 2: get lucky some poor person jumps on them

now i'm NOT saying AS should be nurfed just saying bad power to compair it to

Personaly rather not see AS change but the whole stealth stacking thing to go away

yes know i cant spell ;p

The_Josh

12-07-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny how an entirely inclusive statement such as "the only..." or "all..." are RARELY accurate.

I'm a blaster, I'm a stalker. I want one-shotting to stay.

If my blaster can NOVA and one-hit kill people and be vulnerable afterwards... So should my stalker. Difference is that my blaster requires ONE power to do it without insp., and my stalker requires two.

Mieux

12-07-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny how an entirely inclusive statement such as "the only..." or "all..." are RARELY accurate.

I'm a blaster, I'm a stalker. I want one-shotting to stay.

If my blaster can NOVA and one-hit kill people and be vulnerable afterwards... So should my stalker. Difference is that my blaster requires ONE power to do it without insp., and my stalker requires two.

[/ QUOTE ]If AA drained all your endurance...then I don't think you'd see this discussion. ;)

Doleful_Avenger

12-07-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This was exactly my point.

PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

[/ QUOTE ]

(sorry this isn't more eloquently stated)

IMHO the most important issue is very much the nature of Teleport Foe. If someone takes a group of four damage-dealers who all have "their supreme nuke powers" and they all gang up on me it is very different from one person sitting on a building further away than my computer seems happy to render them and then making me suddenly appear somewhere I would be subject to a rapid demise (no matter what the source of that demise may be).

I don't have the fastest computer in the world, and I've been successful in PvP, but my screen hangs for sometimes several secconds before I even see that I've been teleported. Because of issues with my computer's performance I have "Promt Teleport" turned on in PvE, but that's not possible for PvP. Most of the time this gives them time to faceplant me even if they're doing a very bad job of it.

So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't. It's the "reasonableness" as the Supreme Court often says, that draws the line. So what's resonable?

In my opinion it is reasonable to take time planning an attack that has a good chance of defeating an opponent, but not reasonable to have a "one-shot button". Currently, Teleport Foe is not only the most glaring example of this, but also the most likley to be used somehow for greifing (also consider that TP Foe tactics are reacted to much in the same way that greifing is).

SuicidalManiac

12-07-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This was exactly my point.

PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

[/ QUOTE ]

(sorry this isn't more eloquently stated)

IMHO the most important issue is very much the nature of Teleport Foe. If someone takes a group of four damage-dealers who all have "their supreme nuke powers" and they all gang up on me it is very different from one person sitting on a building further away than my computer seems happy to render them and then making me suddenly appear somewhere I would be subject to a rapid demise (no matter what the source of that demise may be).

I don't have the fastest computer in the world, and I've been successful in PvP, but my screen hangs for sometimes several secconds before I even see that I've been teleported. Because of issues with my computer's performance I have "Promt Teleport" turned on in PvE, but that's not possible for PvP. Most of the time this gives them time to faceplant me even if they're doing a very bad job of it.

So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't. It's the "reasonableness" as the Supreme Court often says, that draws the line. So what's resonable?

In my opinion it is reasonable to take time planning an attack that has a good chance of defeating an opponent, but not reasonable to have a "one-shot button". Currently, Teleport Foe is not only the most glaring example of this, but also the most likley to be used somehow for greifing (also consider that TP Foe tactics are reacted to much in the same way that greifing is).

[/ QUOTE ]

So, What bearing does this have on the topic at hand?

Your really talking about how your PC is old and aniquated and shop be upgraded???

I don't have TP foe in my spec but just curious on what bearing this has to do with the subject at hand??

If your PC's that bad you should considering upgrading it as a solution and is not an overall issue of the game.

TJ_Solomon

12-07-2005, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see? Getting one shot is not just within the powers of stalkers. Many other ATs can effectively one shot certain other ATs.

Unless you really really really want another round of reduced damage across the board, I suggest getting the sets you like to play get looked into for possible buffs not try to bring down others.

Like I said in another post. If the dev lessen AS then there are a slew of other things that will have to be addressed aswell. I thought it would just be with buffing Stalker defense and critical ability but as _Castle_ eluded to it seems other possibilities for getting one shot would have to be dealt with.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.

Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.

I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.

They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?

[/ QUOTE ]

Situations are different. Any build can get +perception powers to help detect a Stalker. You can't say the same about holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could swear there were some mez protection powers in the power pools. I could swear there were some mez protections in the shared pools. I guess I eas wrong, since some builds apparently cannot get mez protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Acrobatics. One mez.

Tactics, one of many +perception powers available to avoid Stalkers.

Peace_on_Earth

12-07-2005, 09:27 PM

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 09:29 PM

From TrackStar:

[ QUOTE ]
Its silly, the only people who want the one shotting to stay is stalkers and scrappers. PvP is pointless if all you do is get attacked from behind by some sissy assasain strike bull, and i hope states nerfs the hell out of ya'

[/ QUOTE ]

My main is a Blaster. Blasters are my favorite AT. I get one shotted constantly. I have zero problems with "one-shotting" as long as it can be prevented.

Assassination Strike can be prevented.

BTW, don't let the sig fool ya, I play every AT except for Brutes and Controllers and am fully capable of avoiding AS with all of them and I don't build for PvP.

Clintonian

12-07-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd just like to note that a certain number of people out there are huge fans of declarative sentences that end with ", period." or "- period.".

It immediately convinces some to believe... the contrary view.

It inspires certain readers to read on... no further.

It makes some people seriously consider the poster's point... and seriously consider putting him/her on ignore.

Honestly, what declarative sentence couldn't be improved by putting two periods at the end? Hmm? I'm sure our blind friends who read the forums in braille agree. ;)

NinjaMonkey

12-07-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was because magnitude of holds could trump the inspirations, thus making them useless.

I fail to see how seeing a Stalker before he/she even gets a chance to line you up somehow doesn't prevent you from being AS'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stack enough Disciplines and the magnitudes of the holds could not trump them.

Stack enough Insights and the stregnth of the stealth cannot trump them.

I was asking how the situations were DIFFERENT.

They're not, so why shouldn't we get a way to RESPOND to a stealth snipe the way we can now RESPOND to a status?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because it happened to work that way before doesn't mean it has to again. It is possible that the solution found in the end for that issue isn't appropriate, or desired, for this supposed issue. I suppose it comes down to "Just because we did it that way in the past doesn't mean we need to do it that way every time in the future".

I fail to see how a comparison can be drawn betwen a character who is typically easy to see and a character whose major ability is stealth or remaining hidden. There is no parallel between a controller coming up and holding you and a stalker sneaking up for an AS.

And, as pointed out before, there are ways to spot the stalker now, where before you could not stop the controller. There are powers you can use to see the stalker, which eliminates his advantage. There are aura powers that can reveal him. There was no way to stop a hold or break out prior to the inspirations.

I'm still not sure why this is seen as an auto win situation. I've had my defenders live through several AS or attempted AS.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?

THAT would be unbalanced!

[/ QUOTE ]

Blasters dont have stacked stealth, blasters lose all end after a nuke. Nukes have hella-long recharge rates. Whats the down fall to using AS? Maybe that will solve the problem...after a successful AS maybe stalkers should lose all end. Would you like that? I think not.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 10:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also....a nuke is an AOE attack. It can attack tons of people at once. Why the hell should it be the only attack capable of doing serious damage?

THAT would be unbalanced!

[/ QUOTE ]

Blasters dont have stacked stealth, blasters lose all end after a nuke. Whats the down fall to using AS? Maybe that will solve the problem...after a successful AS maybe stalkers should lose all end. Would you like that? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pbaoe extreme damage (on a Blaster scale) attack power needs to drain all end. That's always been fair IMO.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This was exactly my point.

PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.

[/ QUOTE ]

I submit...it is not the one-shot that is the problem, it is the feeling that one cannot avoid the one shot and the constant annoyance of reoccuring attempts. I have no issue with running up to a blaster and getting killed by all the mines he or she has laid down. I'd have a problem if that blaster could use an "invisible hand" and get me from anywhere on the map....and there were ridiculously few powers or ways to stop it.

I don't have a problem if I see a brute teamed with three Kinetics Corruptors ...who fire Fulcrum Shift...and I get one shot.

While in Siren's, I get TP Foe'd into a throng of MM's with Tar Patch and minions ..good for them. I saw where they set up and stayed out of range.

But getting one-shot when you can't see the target...or knowing that if the one-shot misses, you still won't be able to defeat the target is not "Fun" (tm) for anyone but the person doing the killing.

It's fun to fight Stalkers who can one-shot me...provided that I can see them...and have an opportunity to stop the one shot...even when I don't succeed and still get one-shotted.

But the inviso + one-shotting + escaping feels like griefing = not Fun.

I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers? Wouldn't that be a fair trade off for PvP?....risk=reward?

As you point out...trying to stop "one-shotting" is a like chasing your tail. There is no functional difference between getting one-shotted versus ten shotted if you feel like you have no recourse in either situation.

However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.

Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?

So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you 100%. But I guarrantee no stalker advocates will even challenge your post, they only prey on the squishies......errrr, the weak.

Lord_Havoc

12-07-2005, 10:26 PM

My question simply pertains to: "Why shouldn't a build matter in PvP?", or rather maybe it should be "why shouldn't it make a difference in PvP?". Perhaps I misunderstood, but the build should truly matter in PvP, as it should in PvE, as it should in any situation regarding any type of conflict.
Being prepared is important regardless of the situation. Someone who has spent the time optimizing for PvP/PvE/whatever should *always* (read: more often than not) dominate over someone who is not specialized in the given situation. A person who has given no thought about fighting other humans should be aware of the dangers in a PvP area because it is entirely different from fighting monsters. (Though some could argue that humans make better "monsters" :D) It is simply that they are not prepared for the given situation, some builds will inherently be better in some situations as opposed to others, this will and should always be true. In my opinion thats why AT's were devbelpoed in the first place so that everyone could have their role to play.

Black_Scourge

12-07-2005, 10:33 PM

Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 10:33 PM

I've come to the conclusion that it's not the actual one-shotting at all. Sadly, I think it's a plain lack of effort. I play in Siren's everyday, seeing different heroes everyday - 65% of whom can see me just fine, the other 35% get IR goggles very quickly.

I'm honestly done arguing the point that Stalkers can be seen by anybody because it's obvious nobody wants to accept that even though you can go to any PvP zone and see plenty of people chasing Stalkers around.

BTW, I can't wait to see the complaining when villains start to take control of PvP zones and heroes get a taste of what these zones are like without the IR goggles. Most people who play mainly villains are laughing at how heroes (at least on the forums) don't appreciate how powerful that one temp power is right now. ;)

Illu Troller: OMG!!! NO FAIR! He can use the IR goggles+Tactics and see through my Superior Invis! That's not fair!

I guarantee this will happen.

Revolver_Law

12-07-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Everybody but Stalkers lag. It's true, it's true.

K. Done now. Have fun all.

Dysmal

12-07-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.

[/ QUOTE ]

AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.

[ QUOTE ]

And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.

EDIT: bbcode

Dysmal

12-07-2005, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Illu Troller: OMG!!! NO FAIR! He can use the IR goggles+Tactics and see through my Superior Invis! That's not fair!

I guarantee this will happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can guarantee it wont.

Villains took Siren's a few times on Virtue.

No IR goggles in the villain store.

Obtenebrator

12-07-2005, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of posts over on the Blaster Boards of people specifically testing Lightning Field with three (3) Single-Origin Accuracy Enhancements slotted and it still only hit a Defense Set (which comprise the other secondaries) Stalker 10% of the time. These are simply not a reliable defense, even if a person's AT has access to them. Most simply don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
For the sake of accuracy, since I made the post in question, I did not test it. I was hypothesizing based on Hero Planner numbers and my knowledge of how the system works. So please don't take it as gospel.

Something else to keep in mind is how often the aura pulses while the stalker is within its AoE. The longer he stays in there, the greater the chance to be interrupted.

Work_Ethic

12-07-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, here is the KEEP MOVING CRAP!!!!

Seriously, how freaking hard is it.......

MrQuizzles

12-07-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, here is the KEEP MOVING CRAP!!!!

Seriously, how freaking hard is it.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It's rather hard when using your powers roots you for 3 or more seconds.

Shard_Warrior

12-07-2005, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

You entered the PvP zone without a teamate with Tactics, Clear Mind, Targeting Drone, any Hide Dropping Aura or Accuracy Inspirations. You knew there is a potential threat to you by entering (the message box can't be made clearer).

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%. But I guarrantee no stalker advocates will even challenge your post, they only prey on the squishies......errrr, the weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will challenge it. With my stalker, I attack Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors... am I only preying on "squishies" this way?

For every stacking stealth power a stalker can take, there are power/buff combinations that can trump it. Skilled players who are hit with AS and survive (yes I agree that not all of them can) will run and recover after the first shot. Unskilled players stand there and get taken out by a second and third attack after placate hits them. That's not "overpowered" or a bug in the game. That's a player knowing how to pvp.

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define this? Blasters are low HP (ie squishy). A blaster who uses AIM + Buildup + Buffs + Popping several reds can very easily 1 shot a Controller, Defender, Corruptor or Stalker. This same combo can wipe out an entire group if they use a nova power.

[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?

So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

People are forced to team enough in PvE already. Adding in such a feature would lead to people not being able to solo PvE missions at all and quitting the game. No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

Try playing a stalker with Hide/Stealth/Invis Buffs and take on a team that has Tactics, Hide dropping auras, Clear Minds and other buffs stacked on them. No one in a properly set up group will get 1 shot by AS, except if they are stuck outside the group and rooted when using a power that has a long animation.

Honestly, try playing a stalker first and taking on a well specced/buffed group (or individual) and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

Kitsune9tails

12-07-2005, 11:25 PM

I call upon the community to please discuss the ramifications of this proposal:

The most damage a player may take in a one-second period is 80% of their full hp.

Ergo:

If you have 1000 hp when full, and fall from the fly ceiling (or are assassin struck, or are 'ported atop a pile of trip mines), the most damage you can take is 800 hp. If you have 600/1000 hp left when you hit the ground, you are defeated.

Even if you are a level 2 fresh from the Tutorial with 200 hp, you can't be damaged for more than 160 hp in one second.

Hence, if at full you have 1000 hp and are hit for 1000 hp, the followup attack must land one second later to defeat you.

My thoughts:

This gives a Stalker a fairly good chance of pulling of an Assassination, but a one-second window is a real chance for a good player to react and possibly escape. Of course, this also applies to Blaster alphas and the like. Police Drones may need to be excepted from this rule, but this also solves the problem of being one-shotted by AVs, Giant Monsters, and the like.

Of course, players will drive healers crazy bugging them to keep their hp above 80%...

This rule would not apply to npcs of any kind. They can be one-shotted.

Shard_Warrior

12-07-2005, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I call upon the community to please discuss the ramifications of this proposal:

The most damage a player may take in a one-second period is 80% of their full hp.

Ergo:

If you have 1000 hp when full, and fall from the fly ceiling (or are assassin struck, or are 'ported atop a pile of trip mines), the most damage you can take is 800 hp. If you have 600/1000 hp left when you hit the ground, you are defeated.

Even if you are a level 2 fresh from the Tutorial with 200 hp, you can't be damaged for more than 160 hp in one second.

Hence, if at full you have 1000 hp and are hit for 1000 hp, the followup attack must land one second later to defeat you.

My thoughts:

This gives a Stalker a fairly good chance of pulling of an Assassination, but a one-second window is a real chance for a good player to react and possibly escape. Of course, this also applies to Blaster alphas and the like. Police Drones may need to be excepted from this rule, but this also solves the problem of being one-shotted by AVs, Giant Monsters, and the like.

Of course, players will drive healers crazy bugging them to keep their hp above 80%...

This rule would not apply to npcs of any kind. They can be one-shotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge exploit. This would essentially allow for any AT to jump into a huge mob with no risk of taking all that aggro and having the mob kill them instantly. With a good EMP (or more) around in this scenario, it would be near impossible for anyone to die. Blasters would very easily be able to jump into mobs and use their nova with little or no risk of being defeated.

Work_Ethic

12-07-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.

[/ QUOTE ]

AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.

[ QUOTE ]

And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.

EDIT:bbcode

[/ QUOTE ]

I call bullcrap!!

Sorry, all crediblity was lost with the statement that all AT have to Stalk a target as much OR MORE than a stalker does.
They may have to Stalk a Stalker longer or more to get that moment after the Stalker drops their hide to attack them but please. Every Archtype can one shot antoher archtype at the right setting, Stalkers just have the built in ability to do it with their hide, are some AT's harder then others? You betcha. With Stalking you learn your prey and know it before you go in for the kill. One shotting is fair and legal, cause it is something EVENRYONE can do.

TheDeepBlue

12-07-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's rather hard when using your powers roots you for 3 or more seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like to activate powers right after I jump in a given direction. Buys me just a little bit more time, which can make a heck of a lot of difference.

disco_

12-07-2005, 11:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, here is the KEEP MOVING CRAP!!!!

Seriously, how freaking hard is it.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It's rather hard when using your powers roots you for 3 or more seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said.

SuicidalManiac

12-08-2005, 12:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.

[/ QUOTE ]

AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.

[ QUOTE ]

And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.

EDIT:bbcode

[/ QUOTE ]

Untill you PvP as a stalker you have no clue, I have to follow people for 2 to 5 minutes for the right oppertunity to present it self if i haven't already lost them.

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, I love when these stalkers tell us "your in a pvp zone, JUST KEEP MOVING!" Hogwash. Moving thru zone has pitfalls, ledges, and other obstacles that ppl get stuck on. Sometimes thats all a stalker needs to pull off an AS. Not to mention ppl get stuck in animations that would give stalkers a window of opportunity. So do give me that "keep moving" crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, here is the KEEP MOVING CRAP!!!!

Seriously, how freaking hard is it.......

[/ QUOTE ]

It's rather hard when using your powers roots you for 3 or more seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHA.....So my answer to THAT statement is DON'T USE THAT POWER!! D'uh!

:D

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 12:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's rather hard when using your powers roots you for 3 or more seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like to activate powers right after I jump in a given direction. Buys me just a little bit more time, which can make a heck of a lot of difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just FYI, your SG link is not working, it is saying forum not found.

Eldorodo

12-08-2005, 12:21 AM

Its not as easy as you might think for the stalkers.

Xorbeus

12-08-2005, 12:30 AM

oh boo hoo a stalker one-shotted me. well deal with it. thats the entire point of the stalker class, to sneak in without being noticed, kill their opponent with few hits as possible, and get out. not to stand there while the opponent puts up his defenses and engage in a drawn out fight. stalkers arent brutes.

Hertz

12-08-2005, 12:32 AM

How about if (in PVP only) Defenders, Corruptors and Blasters exploded when they were one-shot by a player? You know, PBAOE extreme damage of their primary set damage type, like the way COT mages explode, except it can't be interrupted, autohit, range of 100 feet.

That's be a great way to respond to an Assassin Strike: blow up the assassin. I guarantee it'd make ASing squishies a lot less fun.

I'm joking, I'm joking. :)

...I think. :)

Mieux

12-08-2005, 12:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You entered the PvP zone without ...

[/ QUOTE ] <lol> So anyone who doesn't enter a PvP zone with stacked +Perception should just stay out? You sure you want that to be the mantra for leaving things as status quo?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define this?

[/ QUOTE ] Anything you can one-shot without inspirations. Why don't give those AT's a "one-shot Stalker's" power? Sound like fun for you? But we'll allow them to not only become totally invisible...we'll allow them to see you. Sure...they'll have to spend 20 minutes setting it up....and all you'll have to do to avoid it is keep moving...which of course means you won't be able to AS without fear of getting AS'd yourself. Sound like fun? Remember..just keep moving.

[ QUOTE ]
People are forced to team enough in PvE already.

[/ QUOTE ] And yet you think it's fun to force only CoH players to team in PvP?

[ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ] So one AT should be allowed to preclude 4 of the 5 AT's from playing PvP solo? Who gets to do that to the Villians? What AT in CoH forces 4 out of 5 AT's to team in CoV? It sure as hell ain't blasters.

[ QUOTE ]
and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ] Who cares? I don't care if it's easy or not...the point is that it isn't fun on the Hero side. That's what matters. If the devs feel that Stalkers should have that effect on CoH PvP...then they run the risk that PvP will be underutilized. Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?

Are you so blind as to not see the animosity this situation has created? Is anyone complaining about Brutes, Dominators, Corruptors, Masterminds to the same degree? Do you really think the devs are smart just to turn a blind-eye and ignore all the people that are unhappy about PvP based soley on Stalkers?

We'll see what happens.

Black_Scourge

12-08-2005, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

You entered the PvP zone without a teamate with Tactics, Clear Mind, Targeting Drone, any Hide Dropping Aura or Accuracy Inspirations. You knew there is a potential threat to you by entering (the message box can't be made clearer).

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%. But I guarrantee no stalker advocates will even challenge your post, they only prey on the squishies......errrr, the weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will challenge it. With my stalker, I attack Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors... am I only preying on "squishies" this way?

For every stacking stealth power a stalker can take, there are power/buff combinations that can trump it. Skilled players who are hit with AS and survive (yes I agree that not all of them can) will run and recover after the first shot. Unskilled players stand there and get taken out by a second and third attack after placate hits them. That's not "overpowered" or a bug in the game. That's a player knowing how to pvp.

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define this? Blasters are low HP (ie squishy). A blaster who uses AIM + Buildup + Buffs + Popping several reds can very easily 1 shot a Controller, Defender, Corruptor or Stalker. This same combo can wipe out an entire group if they use a nova power.

[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?

So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

People are forced to team enough in PvE already. Adding in such a feature would lead to people not being able to solo PvE missions at all and quitting the game. No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

Try playing a stalker with Hide/Stealth/Invis Buffs and take on a team that has Tactics, Hide dropping auras, Clear Minds and other buffs stacked on them. No one in a properly set up group will get 1 shot by AS, except if they are stuck outside the group and rooted when using a power that has a long animation.

Honestly, try playing a stalker first and taking on a well specced/buffed group (or individual) and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just love when you stalkers come up with these grandiose, elaborate ways to prevent stalker attacks or see thru hide/stealth or even compare a blasters front-load dmg. You ppl are incredible.

Sure yeah let me get my clear mind, and my IR goggles, and my uber buffs from 3 random ATs so I can be prepare to repel a LONE stalker from 1 shotting me, what a laugh!

I dont want to have the support of 3 different ppl to prevent getting one shotted repeatedly. I dont want my team to follow me like a dog to stay in range of 3 different tactics running.

Why should it take 3 non-scrappers to fend off a one man killing machine? The ratio is waaaay off.

A stalker doesnt need all the buffs and reds as you describe for a blaster to one shot anything less than a brute/tank/scrapper, all they need in BU+AS. And there is a huge different between seeing an opponent shining like a rainbow from all those buffs, gunning for ya, and a stalker who you only see after your dick's in the dirt.

Another thing, isnt it funny how all the ppl making guides to counter stalker ganking are stalkers themselves? Is it conscience kicking in? Are they worried they know they're gonna get nerfed so need to scramble for damage control? Its the same knee-jerk reaction ppl have with cover-ups, lol.

Black_Scourge

12-08-2005, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You entered the PvP zone without ...

[/ QUOTE ] <lol> So anyone who doesn't enter a PvP zone with stacked +Perception should just stay out? You sure you want that to be the mantra for leaving things as status quo?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define this?

[/ QUOTE ] Anything you can one-shot without inspirations. Why don't give those AT's a "one-shot Stalker's" power? Sound like fun for you? But we'll allow them to not only become totally invisible...we'll allow them to see you. Sure...they'll have to spend 20 minutes setting it up....and all you'll have to do to avoid it is keep moving...which of course means you won't be able to AS without fear of getting AS'd yourself. Sound like fun? Remember..just keep moving.

[ QUOTE ]
People are forced to team enough in PvE already.

[/ QUOTE ] And yet you think it's fun to force only CoH players to team in PvP?

[ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ] So one AT should be allowed to preclude 4 of the 5 AT's from playing PvP solo? Who gets to do that to the Villians? What AT in CoH forces 4 out of 5 AT's to team in CoV? It sure as hell ain't blasters.

[ QUOTE ]
and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ] Who cares? I don't care if it's easy or not...the point is that it isn't fun on the Hero side. That's what matters. If the devs feel that Stalkers should have that effect on CoH PvP...then they run the risk that PvP will be underutilized. Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?

Are you so blind as to not see the animosity this situation has created? Is anyone complaining about Brutes, Dominators, Corruptors, Masterminds to the same degree? Do you really think the devs are smart just to turn a blind-eye and ignore all the people that are unhappy about PvP based soley on Stalkers?

We'll see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off the only thing forcing you to team in PVP or PVE is YOU!! The only person who can determine the FUN of PVP is the person behind the keyboard, i.e. YOU. Stalkers are not problem, people who take there Uber build into a PVP zone thinking they are just gonna rock the house get a fanatastic wake up call with being taken out by a Stalker. Booo hooo- it can't be ME or my UBER BUILD that is the problem....IT MUST BE THE STALKERS!!! Please!! It is hyperbole crap like this that is ridiculous and gets the nerfs started. Stop blaming the Stalker or the AT, and look in the mirror. The blame is on you.

Black_Scourge

12-08-2005, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You entered the PvP zone without ...

[/ QUOTE ] <lol> So anyone who doesn't enter a PvP zone with stacked +Perception should just stay out? You sure you want that to be the mantra for leaving things as status quo?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define this?

[/ QUOTE ] Anything you can one-shot without inspirations. Why don't give those AT's a "one-shot Stalker's" power? Sound like fun for you? But we'll allow them to not only become totally invisible...we'll allow them to see you. Sure...they'll have to spend 20 minutes setting it up....and all you'll have to do to avoid it is keep moving...which of course means you won't be able to AS without fear of getting AS'd yourself. Sound like fun? Remember..just keep moving.

[ QUOTE ]
People are forced to team enough in PvE already.

[/ QUOTE ] And yet you think it's fun to force only CoH players to team in PvP?

[ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ] So one AT should be allowed to preclude 4 of the 5 AT's from playing PvP solo? Who gets to do that to the Villians? What AT in CoH forces 4 out of 5 AT's to team in CoV? It sure as hell ain't blasters.

[ QUOTE ]
and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ] Who cares? I don't care if it's easy or not...the point is that it isn't fun on the Hero side. That's what matters. If the devs feel that Stalkers should have that effect on CoH PvP...then they run the risk that PvP will be underutilized. Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?

Are you so blind as to not see the animosity this situation has created? Is anyone complaining about Brutes, Dominators, Corruptors, Masterminds to the same degree? Do you really think the devs are smart just to turn a blind-eye and ignore all the people that are unhappy about PvP based soley on Stalkers?

We'll see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off the only thing forcing you to team in PVP or PVE is YOU!! The only person who can determine the FUN of PVP is the person behind the keyboard, i.e. YOU. Stalkers are not problem, people who take there Uber build into a PVP zone thinking they are just gonna rock the house get a fanatastic wake up call with being taken out by a Stalker. Booo hooo- it can't be ME or my UBER BUILD that is the problem....IT MUST BE THE STALKERS!!! Please!! It is hyperbole crap like this that is ridiculous and gets the nerfs started. Stop blaming the Stalker or the AT, and look in the mirror. The blame is on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at your sig, you obviously have no full grasp on the game. Before you start telling ppl they are the problem, learn the game 1st.

Mieux

12-08-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How about if (in PVP only) Defenders, Corruptors and Blasters exploded when they were one-shot by a player?

[/ QUOTE ] hilarious.

Helms

12-08-2005, 01:02 AM

my problem is I got hit with an AS although I saw him and even attacked him first I just missed my attack. How is that an AS attack? That should be fixed.

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I have never heard people on my team complain, not even squishies, when they get one-shotted by monsters or AV's. We know where the threat is, we elected to fight that threat, we know that we could have avoided it by staying out of range, popping Lucks before we engaged, or calling for extra teammates. So the it becomes evident that the problem is not the one-shot...it is the events surrounding that experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

You entered the PvP zone without a teamate with Tactics, Clear Mind, Targeting Drone, any Hide Dropping Aura or Accuracy Inspirations. You knew there is a potential threat to you by entering (the message box can't be made clearer).

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%. But I guarrantee no stalker advocates will even challenge your post, they only prey on the squishies......errrr, the weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will challenge it. With my stalker, I attack Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors... am I only preying on "squishies" this way?

For every stacking stealth power a stalker can take, there are power/buff combinations that can trump it. Skilled players who are hit with AS and survive (yes I agree that not all of them can) will run and recover after the first shot. Unskilled players stand there and get taken out by a second and third attack after placate hits them. That's not "overpowered" or a bug in the game. That's a player knowing how to pvp.

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious why Stalkers can one-shot squishies...but squishies can't one-shot stalkers?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define this? Blasters are low HP (ie squishy). A blaster who uses AIM + Buildup + Buffs + Popping several reds can very easily 1 shot a Controller, Defender, Corruptor or Stalker. This same combo can wipe out an entire group if they use a nova power.

[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question: Why not put Stealth + Hide mobs with Assassin Strike in CoH PvE missions?

So why is it suddenly "fun" for players to be exposed to that in PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

People are forced to team enough in PvE already. Adding in such a feature would lead to people not being able to solo PvE missions at all and quitting the game. No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

Try playing a stalker with Hide/Stealth/Invis Buffs and take on a team that has Tactics, Hide dropping auras, Clear Minds and other buffs stacked on them. No one in a properly set up group will get 1 shot by AS, except if they are stuck outside the group and rooted when using a power that has a long animation.

Honestly, try playing a stalker first and taking on a well specced/buffed group (or individual) and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just love when you stalkers come up with these grandiose, elaborate ways to prevent stalker attacks or see thru hide/stealth or even compare a blasters front-load dmg. You ppl are incredible.

Sure yeah let me get my clear mind, and my IR goggles, and my uber buffs from 3 random ATs so I can be prepare to repel a LONE stalker from 1 shotting me, what a laugh!

I dont want to have the support of 3 different ppl to prevent getting one shotted repeatedly. I dont want my team to follow me like a dog to stay in range of 3 different tactics running.

Why should it take 3 non-scrappers to fend off a one man killing machine? The ratio is waaaay off.

A stalker doesnt need all the buffs and reds as you describe for a blaster to one shot anything less than a brute/tank/scrapper, all they need in BU+AS. And there is a huge different between seeing an opponent shining like a rainbow from all those buffs, gunning for ya, and a stalker who you only see after your dick's in the dirt.

Another thing, isnt it funny how all the ppl making guides to counter stalker ganking are stalkers themselves? Is it conscience kicking in? Are they worried they know they're gonna get nerfed so need to scramble for damage control? Its the same knee-jerk reaction ppl have with cover-ups, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called logic retard. And the only knee jerk reactions I see around here are the idiots like you who can't handle the fact that their uber PVE build isn't always gonna cut it in PVP.

Cry me a river.

disco_

12-08-2005, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

HAHA.....So my answer to THAT statement is DON'T USE THAT POWER!! D'uh!

:D

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if I don't use RI i'm toast. If i do use it i'm still toast :)

Kitsune9tails

12-08-2005, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call upon the community to please discuss the ramifications of this proposal:

The most damage a player may take in a one-second period is 80% of their full hp.

Ergo:

If you have 1000 hp when full, and fall from the fly ceiling (or are assassin struck, or are 'ported atop a pile of trip mines), the most damage you can take is 800 hp. If you have 600/1000 hp left when you hit the ground, you are defeated.

Even if you are a level 2 fresh from the Tutorial with 200 hp, you can't be damaged for more than 160 hp in one second.

Hence, if at full you have 1000 hp and are hit for 1000 hp, the followup attack must land one second later to defeat you.

My thoughts:

This gives a Stalker a fairly good chance of pulling of an Assassination, but a one-second window is a real chance for a good player to react and possibly escape. Of course, this also applies to Blaster alphas and the like. Police Drones may need to be excepted from this rule, but this also solves the problem of being one-shotted by AVs, Giant Monsters, and the like.

Of course, players will drive healers crazy bugging them to keep their hp above 80%...

This rule would not apply to npcs of any kind. They can be one-shotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge exploit. This would essentially allow for any AT to jump into a huge mob with no risk of taking all that aggro and having the mob kill them instantly. With a good EMP (or more) around in this scenario, it would be near impossible for anyone to die. Blasters would very easily be able to jump into mobs and use their nova with little or no risk of being defeated.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that this idea would make healing a bit more powerful. Of course the numbers can be tweaked and tested to make the balance right.

Perhaps 20% is too great a portion of hp to be left with. We could start with 5% and work from there. Still, I think one second to flee or heal is a 'cruel but fair' window. BUth that number is tweakable, too. We could start with .3 seconds and test/tweak from there.

The overall Idea is this:

1) It is still possible to one-shot a damaged foe.
2) There is a definite reliable 'react window' that is small enough to kill a flat-footed defender, yet large enough for a quick-reacting defender.
3) An attacker can still easily time a deadly 2-shot, but it takes timing and planning, rather than spamming attacks.

Any other comments or constructive suggestions?

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You entered the PvP zone without ...

[/ QUOTE ] <lol> So anyone who doesn't enter a PvP zone with stacked +Perception should just stay out? You sure you want that to be the mantra for leaving things as status quo?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define this?

[/ QUOTE ] Anything you can one-shot without inspirations. Why don't give those AT's a "one-shot Stalker's" power? Sound like fun for you? But we'll allow them to not only become totally invisible...we'll allow them to see you. Sure...they'll have to spend 20 minutes setting it up....and all you'll have to do to avoid it is keep moving...which of course means you won't be able to AS without fear of getting AS'd yourself. Sound like fun? Remember..just keep moving.

[ QUOTE ]
People are forced to team enough in PvE already.

[/ QUOTE ] And yet you think it's fun to force only CoH players to team in PvP?

[ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to enter PvP zones alone or with a team that does not have the necessary powers/skills to help combat stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ] So one AT should be allowed to preclude 4 of the 5 AT's from playing PvP solo? Who gets to do that to the Villians? What AT in CoH forces 4 out of 5 AT's to team in CoV? It sure as hell ain't blasters.

[ QUOTE ]
and then come back and tell us how "easy" it is.

[/ QUOTE ] Who cares? I don't care if it's easy or not...the point is that it isn't fun on the Hero side. That's what matters. If the devs feel that Stalkers should have that effect on CoH PvP...then they run the risk that PvP will be underutilized. Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?

Are you so blind as to not see the animosity this situation has created? Is anyone complaining about Brutes, Dominators, Corruptors, Masterminds to the same degree? Do you really think the devs are smart just to turn a blind-eye and ignore all the people that are unhappy about PvP based soley on Stalkers?

We'll see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off the only thing forcing you to team in PVP or PVE is YOU!! The only person who can determine the FUN of PVP is the person behind the keyboard, i.e. YOU. Stalkers are not problem, people who take there Uber build into a PVP zone thinking they are just gonna rock the house get a fanatastic wake up call with being taken out by a Stalker. Booo hooo- it can't be ME or my UBER BUILD that is the problem....IT MUST BE THE STALKERS!!! Please!! It is hyperbole crap like this that is ridiculous and gets the nerfs started. Stop blaming the Stalker or the AT, and look in the mirror. The blame is on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at your sig, you obviously have no full grasp on the game. Before you start telling ppl they are the problem, learn the game 1st.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA- Looking at YOUR sig- It looks like your mommy power level'd you and now that you have earn your bones in PVP and are a crybaby becasue OHMIGOD- I'm NOT uber!!!

Get real.

Edit: Making assumptions from sig lines is uber too!!! You rock!

:D

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

HAHA.....So my answer to THAT statement is DON'T USE THAT POWER!! D'uh!

:D

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if I don't use RI i'm toast. If i do use it i'm still toast :)

[/ QUOTE ]

My solution for Rooted or any power that requires you to be rooted is a damage resistance increase. Inv. Unyeilding is kinda like that but you are more resistant but you are easier to hit. With being rooted, I think you should get and increase to your damage resistance. But that is me.

:D

Dysmal

12-08-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For one thing most of the time AS doesn't 1 shot kill usually has to be followed by something to finish the guy off and there is no 1 shot killing a Tanker or a Brute.

[/ QUOTE ]

AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.

[ QUOTE ]

And a Stalker has to "Stalk" his prey and wait for the oppertune moment to strike, you don't relize how hard it is to keep people still in order to even execute the attack so we have to put more work into it then you may see.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.

EDIT:bbcode

[/ QUOTE ]

Untill you PvP as a stalker you have no clue, I have to follow people for 2 to 5 minutes for the right oppertunity to present it self if i haven't already lost them.

[/ QUOTE ]

2-5 Minutes. I've done that on all sorts of other ATs trying to persue elusive opponents. I still believe this arguement is nonsense.

Have you PvP'ed as anything other than a Stalker? Does your experience with other ATs show that Stalkers have to persue opponents for greater lenght of time before attacking?

Minotaur

12-08-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call upon the community to please discuss the ramifications of this proposal:

The most damage a player may take in a one-second period is 80% of their full hp.

Ergo:

If you have 1000 hp when full, and fall from the fly ceiling (or are assassin struck, or are 'ported atop a pile of trip mines), the most damage you can take is 800 hp. If you have 600/1000 hp left when you hit the ground, you are defeated.

Even if you are a level 2 fresh from the Tutorial with 200 hp, you can't be damaged for more than 160 hp in one second.

Hence, if at full you have 1000 hp and are hit for 1000 hp, the followup attack must land one second later to defeat you.

My thoughts:

This gives a Stalker a fairly good chance of pulling of an Assassination, but a one-second window is a real chance for a good player to react and possibly escape. Of course, this also applies to Blaster alphas and the like. Police Drones may need to be excepted from this rule, but this also solves the problem of being one-shotted by AVs, Giant Monsters, and the like.

Of course, players will drive healers crazy bugging them to keep their hp above 80%...

This rule would not apply to npcs of any kind. They can be one-shotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge exploit. This would essentially allow for any AT to jump into a huge mob with no risk of taking all that aggro and having the mob kill them instantly. With a good EMP (or more) around in this scenario, it would be near impossible for anyone to die. Blasters would very easily be able to jump into mobs and use their nova with little or no risk of being defeated.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that this idea would make healing a bit more powerful. Of course the numbers can be tweaked and tested to make the balance right.

Perhaps 20% is too great a portion of hp to be left with. We could start with 5% and work from there. Still, I think one second to flee or heal is a 'cruel but fair' window. BUth that number is tweakable, too. We could start with .3 seconds and test/tweak from there.

The overall Idea is this:

1) It is still possible to one-shot a damaged foe.
2) There is a definite reliable 'react window' that is small enough to kill a flat-footed defender, yet large enough for a quick-reacting defender.
3) An attacker can still easily time a deadly 2-shot, but it takes timing and planning, rather than spamming attacks.

Any other comments or constructive suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Having played a stalker in the beta PvP events (and up to 28 in beta), this change would kill the stalker AT for PvP (and it's not great in PvE). The stalker's other attacks and defences are so poor that if the AS doesn't one shot kill, the stalker will die. On the couple of occasions I failed to kill my target with the AS, I didn't get to land another attack. There is an appreciable gap between the assassin strike going in and the next attack being executed in which a decent player can run away and/or incapacitate the stalker.

Shosuro Tatami 28 ninj/ninj stalker beta (the real version 16 on protector)
and 70+ others including 3 50s

Million

12-08-2005, 02:58 AM

Risk vs. reward. I just want stalkers to have more risk with their attacks.

Stalker status\mez protection should be suppressed for 10 seconds after AS.
All stalker defense boosts are suppressed for 10 seconds after AS.
Increase the suppression time of stalker hide\stealth after AS.
Tp is made a suppressable travel power.

Basically the idea is that stalkers still get their first strike capability, but if they want to stick around for the 2nd or third, you are gonna pay for it.

or we lets implement my favorite change: Make Chilling Embrace a temporary store bought power.

All in favor?

Quason

12-08-2005, 03:02 AM

That's a good start, but here's some more things that need to be done:

Stalkers take twice as much damage as they deal when they use AS.
Stalkers pay $30/month subscription fee instead of $15.
Stalkers home phone number and bank account/routing number are displayed in character info.
Everytime a Stalker logs on, God kills a kitten.
If a Stalker spends longer than 1 hour in a PvP zone, the player develops inoperable brain tumors.

That should help cut down on the one-shots a bit.

kusanagi

12-08-2005, 03:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It might be hard to find the right moment, but you're in relative safety the entire time.

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to a stealthed blaster flying way up high above the range of possible retaliation while he builds-up for a snipe followed up by the heaviest other attacks he has?

(No, Inertial, this isn't a slam against you. Like I mentioned in broadcast, as a Stalker I really have no right to complain about whether anyone else's tactics might be "underhanded"...

...But also like I pointed out, if you adopt effectively the same style, by default neither do you.)

And WRT the "relative safety"... Every single hero I encountered in SC last night had IR goggles, and I'm fairly sure most of them could see us. Especially the EN/EN blapper that liked to build up just before doing a SS-powered driveby melee punch to knock off as many toggles as possible to allow her teammates to nail the stalker.

(No, Jane Riveira, I'm not complaining. It was good tactics, and very, very well executed. I have nothing but kudos for you - and besides, the one time when two of us snuck up behind you while you were too busy getting ready to take out the third to notice them was worth it. *smooch* :) )

Mieux

12-08-2005, 04:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's a good start, but here's some more things that need to be done:

Stalkers take twice as much damage as they deal when they use AS.
Stalkers pay $30/month subscription fee instead of $15.
Stalkers home phone number and bank account/routing number are displayed in character info.
Everytime a Stalker logs on, God kills a kitten.
If a Stalker spends longer than 1 hour in a PvP zone, the player develops inoperable brain tumors.

That should help cut down on the one-shots a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]You can't even be reasonable can you?

It should only be 1/2 hour before the brain tumors occur. Arguing for 1 hour is like asking all the Heros to cutoff an ear.

Jeez...some people.

Aeonian

12-08-2005, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It might be hard to find the right moment, but you're in relative safety the entire time.

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to a stealthed blaster flying way up high above the range of possible retaliation while he builds-up for a snipe followed up by the heaviest other attacks he has?

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is also a problem if a 1-shot kill is possible because it is low risk for high reward. Provided the player sniped can react before the other attacks hit this is okay.

[ QUOTE ]
And WRT the "relative safety"... Every single hero I encountered in SC last night had IR goggles, and I'm fairly sure most of them could see us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see it as a good thing that every single hero in a zone feels that they need to spend 10K influence every 30 minutes to be able to participate in PvP. I think this is being done at the moment to be competitive, being able to react to a Stalker attack should reduce the need for IR goggles and allow Stalkers to hide more easily.

Quason

12-08-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This situation is also a problem if a 1-shot kill is possible because it is low risk for high reward. Provided the player sniped can react before the other attacks hit this is okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that everyone has different reaction times. What if I have a broken arm and have trouble hitting the Respite button? What if I'm drunk or half-asleep? What if I was in the middle of typing? What if I'm just new at the game?

Some of those are extreme examples I realize, but I think it illustrates the point that ample reaction time is going to vary quite a bit from one person to the next.

Starsman

12-08-2005, 05:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Well, when they faced a similar problem with controllers, they converted the PREVENT inspiration to a RESPOND inspiration.

You can do the math from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing similar there. The problem with breakfrees were many before, between them, if hold, you may easily go afk for half an hour to come back and find you still slowly dying.

AS, by nature, is something you should prevent, not counter. And even if they add any rule they add, you may start seeing stalkers teaming up to do 2 chain assassinations. No mater what, you cant prevent oneshoot kills.

How about a full group of stealted scrappers suddenly using all at the same time their heaviest attack on you? That would oneshoot you still, if they stop AS and traps, they should also prevent this. Why dont we, while at it, prevent it that you can be hit twice in a period fo 2 seconds, to avoid that bad bad feeling of beig ganked?

Yes, there are issues in pvp, but oneshoot kills, are not really between them. You also may find that teaming up will change how it all goes, and almost nullify AS.

Some also may want to review their build for PvP, including things like the leadership pool. 2 or 3 members with tanctics should make those stalkers and stealters visible.

PvP is open war. No soldier lives long in open war solo. Yes, right now stalkers are doing just that, but because they pick the other solo soldiers out there.

Tyfon

12-08-2005, 05:10 AM

Please just fire whatever designer thought a glass-cannon-stealth class would be a good idea.

This has be done in at least 3 other MMOs and it does nothing but generate neverending posts like this one.

Cryptic designers: You aren't special. You aren't going to find the magic combo that makes people like getting ganked by something that have not detected.

These classes only generate hard feelings between players. This is a colossal waste of time and development resources.

Sophy

12-08-2005, 05:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You are forgetting one of the easiest ways to prevent a AS strike. Its also one of the the hardest learned lessons non-combat experience aviators in a war zone ever get...

KEEP MOVING!

If you don't move - you are just a target. And your probably dead. Its one of the reasons experience pilots have low attrition rates...

Also any aoe effect around you will interupt a strike - even if you don't see it coming..

PvP zones are WAR ZONES!

See him first...
set up defences...
keep moving - or your probably going to die...its the same in any PvP fight..Stand there - give THEM the initiative...expect to die...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to quote you Wen, since we are homies, but you are wrong about the AoE interupt. I was in Siren's Call running my Rad/Arrow defender, Chokeing Cloud was on and failded to interupt the Assassin Strike. The odd part was I stopped to look/talk to my wife for 5 seconds and that was all it took! No chance of retaliation. If that is not cheap, I'm not sure what is? Seeing as how we've teamed together before, you know I am a very vigilant player, who knows what to do and how to react to almost every situation.

I'm thinking since the problem tends to be Hide+build up + Assassin Strike and maybe a red. How about changing Build up to Aim type damage?

Work_Ethic

12-08-2005, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are forgetting one of the easiest ways to prevent a AS strike. Its also one of the the hardest learned lessons non-combat experience aviators in a war zone ever get...

KEEP MOVING!

If you don't move - you are just a target. And your probably dead. Its one of the reasons experience pilots have low attrition rates...

Also any aoe effect around you will interupt a strike - even if you don't see it coming..

PvP zones are WAR ZONES!

See him first...
set up defences...
keep moving - or your probably going to die...its the same in any PvP fight..Stand there - give THEM the initiative...expect to die...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to quote you Wen, since we are homies, but you are wrong about the AoE interupt. I was in Siren's Call running my Rad/Arrow defender, Chokeing Cloud was on and failded to interupt the Assassin Strike. The odd part was I stopped to look/talk to my wife for 5 seconds and that was all it took! No chance of retaliation. If that is not cheap, I'm not sure what is? Seeing as how we've teamed together before, you know I am a very vigilant player, who knows what to do and how to react to almost every situation.

I'm thinking since the problem tends to be Hide+build up + Assassin Strike and maybe a red. How about changing Build up to Aim type damage?

[/ QUOTE ]

You stopped. Period. This Stalker was probably "stalking" you (it IS what they do) for a few minutes, and you gave them an opportunity. Getting inbetween the choking cloud pulses was the tricky part- there is a four (?) second delay for the AS to go off and the last second is un-interuptable.

Two rules broken and you were asking for it- Not teaming and stopping.

:D

Aeonian

12-08-2005, 05:43 AM

Stalkers teaming up to do an alpha-strike is no worse than any other team combination alpha. The solution to being attacked by a team is to be in a team yourself. The problem is that Stalkers can attack players in a team, 1-shot, and get away without significant consequence or risk.

Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP. Even if we all learned to build correctly for PvP so that Stalkers are seen routinely, this doesn't fix the problem. All it would do is make playing a Stalker in PvP no fun.

If a player has a *chance* to respond to an AS or 1-shot they can avoid the feeling of being ganked. As for Quason's point; yes they are extreme examples. I'd look for a small chance to allow a reaction, maybe 1 second. Something that would allow popping a Respite might be a sufficient period of time.

In summary, being able to prevent a 1-shot by using build options or time-limited temp powers (IR or insps) does not solve the problem of 1-shotting. The problem is that players are unable to respond to an attack and are not engaging in PvP they are just being ganked.

Aeonian

12-08-2005, 05:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You stopped. Period. This Stalker was probably "stalking" you (it IS what they do) for a few minutes, and you gave them an opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

So presuming everyone learns to keep moving in PvP, Stalkers have to wait for the player to become bored of moving around or be distracted by RL? That doesn't seem like a great deal of fun.

DarkPhoenix

12-08-2005, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP. Even if we all learned to build correctly for PvP so that Stalkers are seen routinely, this doesn't fix the problem. All it would do is make playing a Stalker in PvP no fun.

[/ QUOTE ]
/disagreed do you have any idea how many great builds in PVE simply don't work in PVP or vice versa. For example what would you suggest my fire brute do in order to deal with flying blasters that's right I have to pick up flight not only does that leave me with no immob protection but it is also very cubbersome in PVE. Stalkers take stealth that does absolutely nothing for them in PVE. What about having to take recall friend to deal with people constantly TPfoeing your teammates, or even worse having to take TP foe yourself to fight back. So this entire argument about having to take certain powerpools is moot, people are overlooking the big picture and using stalkers as scapegoats.

Chindi

12-08-2005, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, my defender damage will surely make all stalkers shake in their boots!

Please hold still a minute while I kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which neglects to in any way shape or form stand as an actual rebuttal to my argument.

Or is your premise that as a defender, if you get the drop on a Stalker (which you would if he thinks he's hidden when you can actually see him) you wouldn't be able to deal with him?

Because Defender damage may not be much, but it's certainly up to that task.

And of course if you can't deal with a character when you have the drop on him and can avoid his best attack.. then no amount of balancing would make PvP fair for you anyway.

Chindi

12-08-2005, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If Stalkers don't stop treating every post on this subject as a nerfherding of their AT, they're not going to have their voices heard on HOW such a system should be put in place and WHAT compensation Stalkers should receive to keep them viable in a world without 1 shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Pil :)

I'm not a stalker player, and don't plan to be one and I don't disagree that there are issues with 1 - shot. But I'm willing to lay serious money on the fact that Castle's issue with it from a balance point is FAR different than the issue that started this post which was essentially 'He killed me because I couldn't be bothered to defend myself'.

At least in part Castle's issue has to do with his awareness that anything that potentially powerful will be balanced so it's better to get ahead of the curve.

My objection basically comes down to the fact that every time nerfs or code changes are used in place of people adjusting tactics, PvP gets less interesting, not more.

Haven't read your ideas yet on the 1 shotting, but I will.

Doleful_Avenger

12-08-2005, 06:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, What bearing does this have on the topic at hand?

Your really talking about how your PC is old and aniquated and shop be upgraded???

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pointing out the futility of saying that a person should always get a chance to react.

Aeonian

12-08-2005, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, What bearing does this have on the topic at hand?

Your really talking about how your PC is old and aniquated and shop be upgraded???

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pointing out the futility of saying that a person should always get a chance to react.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in this scenario even if you do have a chance to react you've been killed by your computer being rubbish. It's not a 1-shot, your character had a chance. You, the player, did not take that chance. In this case, you didn't take the chance becuase your PC has serious issues or you need to adjust your graphics settings.

Chindi

12-08-2005, 06:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The point is pvp should be viable REGARDLESS of build, ability on the other hand is a whole nother matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a flat-out impossibility.

Bob is a 'hardcore gamer'. Bob loves PvP. Bob gets his supergroup to help pl his new PvP char to it's level cap, respecs it so that it's the 'perfect' PvP build... and goes into Bloody bay.

Joe is a casual gamer... he plays 5-6 hours a week... he's heard about PvP but doesn't know a lot about it. His character is built for solo/Pick-up Group PvE. No SG, no Arena Testing. He finally gets the chance/urge/mission to go to Bloody Bay and thinks 'Neat, I'll go fight me a hero!'.

There is no way to make that contest anything other than ridiculously one-sided, and in most cases it's going to be a one or two shot contest. Mez/Death, TP Foe into Mines, As, whatever you like.... Joe is going to get his head handed to him repeatedly by Bob.

Trying to nip/tuck the code to increase Joe's survivability in that fight to the mythical point where he gets to 'fight back',
There is no way to do that without MASSIVE propping up of builds that aren't meant for PvP.

That's not even to touch on the fact that the mindsets behind the characters almost insures that even givent he exact same powersets Bob is always going to beat Joe because Bob is going to figure out how to best apply what powers he has. Not because he's smarter or better but because he's more interested in experimenting/trying it out.

[ QUOTE ]
But if you have a pve build you shouldn't expect to do well in pvp you say? and in truth you're mostly correct, but that's where I would ask yourself, how is pvp going to have the broad appeal and enough people particpating to ensure it's success if it can't draw in the casuals as well as the hardcores?

[/ QUOTE ]

But the PvP market isn't a casual market, by and large... it's a hardcore market... the people who by both editions of the game to play it.. maybe even have multiple accounts. And if you introduce elements to make PvP more 'broad' in appeal, what you're actually doing is alienating those hardcores. Who wants to take the tradeoffs of a strictly PvP built char, if anyone entering the zone has a chance to beat it anyway?

There is a happy medium, I have chars that are built mostly for PvE but have a couple of powers that are mainly PvP oriented so that I'm still effective in those fights. You don't have to be a pure PvP build to survive PvP, but building the system so that you don't need to make any concessions at all? Is foolish in the extreme.

Chindi

12-08-2005, 06:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except.

There are tactics to avoid a stalker's AS. The tactics, and the build/buys/groups to support them are distasteful to some.. but they are still there for anyone to use.

There are other fairly dangerous one-shot combos.. most of them have avoidance measures, some that don't at least have long set-up time allowing you to try to persecute the executer.

Once code has negated all of these strategies, then PvP WILL be a tacticless button mashing. Right now there are tactics to negate the stalker's efficiency... people just need to be willing to use them.

EnigmaBlack

12-08-2005, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing that is consistant in this game is the ignoring of defenders.

Starsman

12-08-2005, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers teaming up to do an alpha-strike is no worse than any other team combination alpha. The solution to being attacked by a team is to be in a team yourself. The problem is that Stalkers can attack players in a team, 1-shot, and get away without significant consequence or risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the stalker assassins, his travel powers and stealth suppress. A fast reacting team will be able to take him out before he can get away (maybe unless the guy is a teleporter)

While playing a stalker myself, i'd only assassinate some one that is on a team if
1) he is a squishi
2) his team made sure to let him "safely" away from the heat (ie, vulnerable to me)

[ QUOTE ]
Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers are not the only ones that can stealth. You know how deadly /traps corruptors or masterminds can be with stealth? Do you know ninja masterminds can hide their pets, and these will also crtical from hiden? And you surely dont want a dominator that is ready to dominate to sneak on you, specialy if you are a melee. So, going for something like tactics does not means that you are just specing only to prevent assassins. Also, I dont mean to make a build that is purely PvP, i mean to make a build that is created with PvP in mind. There are loads of powers people never bother with, because due to AI are entirely useless in PvE, but these are amazing for PvP. Asking that your purely PvE optimized build to do well in PvP is really not close to fair.