One shotting has got to end [Archive] - Page 3

November

12-10-2005, 08:10 PM

Oh... I don't know... I had left my DA Scrapper in Bloody Bay today after a mission there when I had to go deal with the door. I logged back on - and knowing I was in a PvP area - deep in there - kicked on my Death Shroud to avoid Stalker attacks, then used my Jetpack (kindly provided by the Devs for Xmas - thx) ... I went straight up - so that I could not make out things below since I did not want to be harrassed by - or confuse anyone - flying Stalkers in particular.

I flew straight to the chopper and started to get on when suddenly both police drones fired and fried the stalker who'd been stalking me for a while apparently.

I have never laughed so hard in all my life. So I'm wondering - was the bugger really behind me from the point I left my mission and DS was running - or was he just there at the base?

And what's more ... if he was at the base, then why at the chopper pad?

C'mon Stalkers - give me some BS crap about how "I only go after people I know are doing PvP and not missions...", when you're hanging out around the chopper where people come in and out.

All this does is tell me two things about Stalkers...
1) They really aren't that bright.
2) They really are a bit over the line when they get as far as the chopper where you enter the zone.

well... and a third thing that I already knew...

3) They have no skill - if they have to gank to get a kill.

Quason

12-10-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All this does is tell me two things about Stalkers...
1) They really aren't that bright.
2) They really are a bit over the line when they get as far as the chopper where you enter the zone.

well... and a third thing that I already knew...

3) They have no skill - if they have to gank to get a kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy overgeneralization, Batman!

Quason

12-10-2005, 08:25 PM

Here's some additional numbers for concideration regarding AT survivability:

A SR Scrapper has 1165 HP in Warburg. He has 28% defense, so it takes 1165 + 28%, or 1491 damage to kill him.

A blaster has 1050 HP in Warburg. He has 0% defense, so it takes 1050 damage to kill him.

My Stalker has 885 HP in Warbug. He has 23.5% defense (vs S/L), so it takes 885 + 23.5%, or 1092 damage to kill him.

My Stalker is 104% as survivable as the Blaster and 73% as survivable as the Scrapper.

That's ignoring a LOT of important factors like ACC enhancements, To-Hit buffs, etc but it's an interesting comparison I think.

Bowghost

12-10-2005, 08:45 PM

Kellen_Wolf

12-10-2005, 08:59 PM

I see noone has stepped forward to show me how there stalkers are owning everything and trashing everyones fun.

I really want to see those of you that say stalkers need to be nerfed play one. Not being a jerk, I might learn somthing.
and it is possible that I will see the light and that stalkers need to be nerfed. As it stands now, the only thing I will get on board with is the toggle dropping aspect of the Eng. stalker, but that's only one stalker primary, they all don't have stun and toggle drops. Of course you'd probably need to do the same to eng. blasters too..to be fair.

Maybe on Protector is the only place that stalkers don't rule Pvp. but here they die just as easy as everyone else..more so maybe because everyone and their sister has IR goggles or somthing else that sees through hide, so they don't get to even use AS that much.

Dysmal

12-10-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's some additional numbers for concideration regarding AT survivability:

A SR Scrapper has 1165 HP in Warburg. He has 28% defense, so it takes 1165 + 28%, or 1491 damage to kill him.

A blaster has 1050 HP in Warburg. He has 0% defense, so it takes 1050 damage to kill him.

My Stalker has 885 HP in Warbug. He has 23.5% defense (vs S/L), so it takes 885 + 23.5%, or 1092 damage to kill him.

My Stalker is 104% as survivable as the Blaster and 73% as survivable as the Scrapper.

That's ignoring a LOT of important factors like ACC enhancements, To-Hit buffs, etc but it's an interesting comparison I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on a strick HP/Defense aspect, I guess you're correct. Factoring in other things is going to be a nightmare, and probably not easily done in as simple a fashion. I dont have any idea how you would factor in Hide, Placate and so on compared to a Scrapper who obviously lacks those tools (though I think we can all agree that Confront probably doesnt add to survivability :p). Primary sets come in there too, as things like Cobra Strike, Stun, and so on.

I can imagine that trying to make a comparison of % survivability between ATs when you factor in these things will be very difficult, but then I haven't taken math since I graduated high school a decade ago. I wasnt very good at it then either. ;)

Quason

12-10-2005, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Based on a strick HP/Defense aspect, I guess you're correct. Factoring in other things is going to be a nightmare, and probably not easily done in as simple a fashion. I dont have any idea how you would factor in Hide, Placate and so on compared to a Scrapper who obviously lacks those tools (though I think we can all agree that Confront probably doesnt add to survivability ). Primary sets come in there too, as things like Cobra Strike, Stun, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was thinking. There's a LOT more that goes into survivability than that, and I tried to point that out in my post. That's just a direct side-by-side comparison of HP and Defense numbers. Take it FWIW.

Basically, that was just a response the whole "stalkers have less def/no they don't/yes they do!/well stalkers have less hp!/no they don't/yes they do!" discussion that was taking place. That's how the def and HP break down.

Shadbolt

12-10-2005, 11:46 PM

Not to sound totally ignorant but......... An AT has a power which can kill other AT's in PVP, Correct?

I take it from what I read that it's pretty good.

So these AT's kill other AT's in PVP in One Shot.

If their victim is a stationary, not running any defenses which stop this ability and if they are not seen first and killed.

Wow. That is over powered, how dare the developers!

I say remove that power right now by GOLLY.

Here is what I want. I want everyone to have the exact same odds as everyone else, I want no one to use skill or intelligence in their play.

Walk to the middle of an area and just beat the crap out of each other, forever.

Geez, play the game, get better, learn how to stop the AT that can do this and drop the subject.

Worry about the bugs, the lock-ups, the sound looping, the crashes and the "content" of the game.

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 01:04 AM

You are absolutely correct... I spent some more time in warburg tonight in an effort to get a direct stalker number... and when I did it was 885... I could have saved myself some time if I knew you were going to respond so quickly :)

As such it is reasonable to assume that stalkers have roughly the defensive capacity that is equivalant to 75% of what scrappers have.

Certainly not squishy... but definately a noticable difference.

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 01:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A SR Scrapper has 1165 HP in Warburg. He has 28% defense, so it takes 1165 + 28%, or 1491 damage to kill him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analysis here is actually a little off... here is why

That 28% defense is subtracted from the base to-hit of 50%

Therefore you are going from 50% to 22% which is equivalant to a factor of 2.27 increase in survivability over an AT with zero defense.

Your stalker who has 23.5% defense will end up increasing his survivability by a factor of 1.89.

Therefore if we take scrappers to be the baseline HP we get survival figures something like this :

Scrapper = 1
Stalker = .62
Blaster = .40

This also ignores ACC enhancements and to-hit buffs but shows pretty clearly that with the numbers given the stalker has roughly 2 thirds the survivability of the scrapper.

But the stalker is also 55% more survivable than a blaster.

Black_Scourge

12-11-2005, 01:58 AM

Ok,the relavance of a stalkers hp is bs. My controller's hps is at the bottom of the rack. In WB, I have no epic pools for dmg resistance. My only defences are a self heal, debuffs, and my travel powers. EVERYONE carries BFs in WB. So mezzes for dmg mitigation arent a factor early fight. I still whoop 99.9% of everyones keyster in that zone, including stalkers. So please, dont bring hp into this debate.

The principle of this debate, at this point is, the environment it has currently created and the direction its going in. And I am not neccessaily speaking for myself when I debate stalker issues. I have an active sg that constantly pvps and run multiple perception and -stealth powers. I am conserned with the casual or new player who wants to scratch the surface with pvp and the pvp zones. Its nice to have an environment that is still in its infancy, that wont discourage and ultimately revolt these folks. Arena scared off a bunch of ppl for certain reasons. Pvp zones have so much more potential to stimulate more active pvp. I dont want to see a good thing ruined b/c a bunch of adolescent, power-hungry, gamers want to PWND unsuspecting noobs.

Oceanborn

12-11-2005, 02:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok,the relavance of a stalkers hp is bs. My controller's hps is at the bottom of the rack. In WB, I have no epic pools for dmg resistance. My only defences are a self heal, debuffs, and my travel powers. EVERYONE carries BFs in WB. So mezzes for dmg mitigation arent a factor early fight. I still whoop 99.9% of everyones keyster in that zone, including stalkers. So please, dont bring hp into this debate.

The principle of this debate, at this point is, the environment it has currently created and the direction its going in. And I am not neccessaily speaking for myself when I debate stalker issues. I have an active sg that constantly pvps and run multiple perception and -stealth powers. I am conserned with the casual or new player who wants to scratch the surface with pvp and the pvp zones. Its nice to have an environment that is still in its infancy, that wont discourage and ultimately revolt these folks. Arena scared off a bunch of ppl for certain reasons. Pvp zones have so much more potential to stimulate more active pvp. I dont want to see a good thing ruined b/c a bunch of adolescent, power-hungry, gamers want to PWND unsuspecting noobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, at all, but IMO, you're thinking too much at this point. If this game gets ruined and gets shut down, it shouldn't be your responsibility to worry about it. I think you should focus more on gaming issues rather than marketing issues.

With that said, the common newb who just recently bought the game WILL wonder what's wrong. He will ask questions, and will sooner or later end up here. Reading this post that you made. And what affect will that have on the common newb? Yeah, that's right, the effect that you're trying to prevent. By giving the Stalker a negative feedback like this, you're causing that effect yourself, the discouragement. Making them have second thoughts about the game.

If you really think you would like to help the newbies/newcomers that gets, as you would state, harassed by Stalkers, it should be your job, since you care about it, to provide positive feedback and help them how to counter Stalkers in general, and not make them more pissed off at Stalkers.

But like I said, as a player, it shouldn't be your job to take care of newcomers or think about new people feeling discouraged about the game.

Kellen_Wolf

12-11-2005, 02:51 AM

well, that's somthing completely different. You'll get new guys getting wasted when lvl 50s bring their char into BB. Those fight are hardly fair at all.

One of the biggest complaints I see, regardless of the AT, is how the battles are fought, it's very rare that battles are fought 1 on 1 or group on group. 1 or 2 people will get relativly isolated and pounced on by 3 or more enemies. The other complaint is how quickly travel powers remove opponents from the fight, somone gets hit once or twice and they are gone. While this is good for the one running, it sucks for the other one trying to fight. I suppose this is why there is so much ganging up..do enough damage as quick as you can before they SJ/Fly/SS/TP away. It can really be maddening to a scrapper that has TP or SS, when your oponent flys or SJs away and you can't close to melee range.

My flying scrapper is much more fun and successful than my TPing one for this reason.

Quason

12-11-2005, 03:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your analysis here is actually a little off

[/ QUOTE ]

You're absolutely right, it was off by a longshot. I was comparing them at 100% base to-hit instead of 50%. I forgot about the reduced baseline in PvP. Thank you for the correction.

Aethon_NA

12-11-2005, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]

One of the biggest complaints I see, regardless of the AT, is how the battles are fought, it's very rare that battles are fought 1 on 1 or group on group. 1 or 2 people will get relativly isolated and pounced on by 3 or more enemies. The other complaint is how quickly travel powers remove opponents from the fight, somone gets hit once or twice and they are gone. While this is good for the one running, it sucks for the other one trying to fight. I suppose this is why there is so much ganging up..do enough damage as quick as you can before they SJ/Fly/SS/TP away. It can really be maddening to a scrapper that has TP or SS, when your oponent flys or SJs away and you can't close to melee range.

My flying scrapper is much more fun and successful than my TPing one for this reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the one thing I currently dislike about the PvP zones at present, that you must constantly use your travel power to avoid the possibility of a Stalker creeping up behind you. It would be nice to be able to stand in one place and either take in the zone or fight without having to leap away after every few attacks.

A way to stop this behaviour would be to have players gain +Perception for every for 10 seconds they stand still. If they move from that location then the +Perception buff degrades the further away they move from the location, disappearing entirely after they've moved over, say, 300ft from that location. This would obviously need to be balanced for Stalkers so if they stand still then they gain a +Stealth. In the interests of balance this should disappear the instant they move though, else they would always be able to have a 'hunting ground' where they would always be at the stealth cap.

DarkPhoenix

12-11-2005, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is the one thing I currently dislike about the PvP zones at present, that you must constantly use your travel power to avoid the possibility of a Stalker creeping up behind you. It would be nice to be able to stand in one place and either take in the zone or fight without having to leap away after every few attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you simply don't like to be caught off guard, if you haven't noticed that's the entire point of the AT. To catch you when you least expect it and take you down as fast as they can. I have a feeling that until stalkers are completly gimped unable to sneak on people or take them down no one will ever be really "happy" with them because of the nature of the AT.

Vauluur

12-11-2005, 06:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

[/ QUOTE ]
I know I'm a bit late, but that's pretty funny. :D

Black_Scourge

12-11-2005, 06:40 AM

Ok, so I've been browsing some of the threads out there with the concern to stalkers and found/came-up with some interesting options. First off, like the devs have done it the past add facets to current powers, i.e. add +perception to thing that would make sense like possibly Super speed, Accelerate metabolism, Speed boost, or anything in the realm of adding alertness as a side-effect. It was done with certain mezz powers in I5, it can be done with perception too.

Another idea is taking current +perception powers, (diclaimer....not my original idea), adding +perception enhancements to current percption powers, Tactic in particular. If you can invest 3 +perception enhancements to a perception power and it would allow you to see thru stealth/hide, it would be more bearable to some folks. This is a raw concept, but a start to a solution.

A few more things I'd like to add. EVERY AT has been tweeked/nerfed for balance. You guys remember I5/6? So why is it such a outlandish idea to adjust a brand-new AT?

Second, many ppl aren't looking at the big picture. Ok, fine so if you wanna be viable in pvp you must take +perception and/or a AOE toggle. That's how stalker critics will tell you to "smarten up". Even when as mentioned by the devs, they dont want any person to be compelled to pick-up a specific pool power (e.g. Hasten/stamina). The temporary satisfaction of one-shotting all these so-called uber pvp builds, will fade just as that estatic feeling of breezing thru invincible solo missions at 50 or soloing AVs. I did it in another MMO, where challenge was non-existant, and I quit shortly after. Its not worth it in the long run, to ward-off solo/noob pvpers just for a short lived, cheap satisfaction. I dont want to see an environmet where all potention pvper are forced into picking up the Leadership pool, or forced to team ALL the time b/c of the allure of the stalker. I guarrantee the stalker population will rise if unchecked, just as all the other arena cookie-cutter builds have.

LittleAxe

12-11-2005, 07:48 AM

One thing I have noticed in this thread is the confusion around "Alpha Strikes" and "one shotting" being one and the same. No they are not. With a one shot you have just that. One shot One kill. Using a battery of attacks at once is just that a battery of attacks. In other words multiple attacks in rapid sequence to do as much damage as possible. Lets break this down a bit so I can clarify myself further.

Assassin Strike. The Stalkers greeting card of sorts. This attack does massive damage when the stalker is hiding. This is broken up into two words. Assassin: N One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person. And Strike: V To hit sharply, as with the hand, the fist, or a weapon.

Well An assassin strike means roughly a sharp hit by someone meant to murder another person. An Assassin. I wonder why they would call it assassin strike if you couldn't in theory kill a foe in a single blow...... Wow ya know?

Lets break up the term Alpha Strike so its understood better. A series of attacks in rapid sucession to do as much damage as possible. I will use my Stone Brute's powers for this comparison vs a +2 boss while my granite armor is on (im a brute but I aint stupid!) I did it this way to best simulate the pvp situation to my ability because frankly in warburg I have trouble finding test subjects

My strike consists of Tremor, Seismic Smash, Brawl, Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet, and buildup

Fury bar at 50%

Brawl: 30 dmg
Seismic smash: 238 dmg
Heavy mallet: 158 dmg
Stone mallet: 118 dmg
Tremor: 62 dmg

Total damage: 602

This is a battery of 5 attacks with buildup and 50-55% fury and Granite armor vs a +2 boss (council human type)

I use the same battery of attacks on people in SC or WB after a TP foe to take enough health off of them to let my team finish them off. Now I brought up tp foe because of one simple reason, if you are Stone/stone and you want to have defense of any kind you need Granite/rooted which means you cant jump, cant run, all they can do is keep you in range of the hammer.

Nerf Stalkers? Nah leave em alone, it takes 4 to kill me in WB and thats if I havent popped a purple (note I said A purple as in 1). AS is a wonderous power that can kill quickly and it is the bread and butter of being a stalker, all I have heard here from 85% of the posters is that stalkers need AS nerfed big time. Stalkers are quite balanced in damage output and defense, extreme damage, defense is low enough to if you get your hands on them they crumble, kind of like a short range blaster that hides better.

All this endless "nerf them they killed me" talk is just going to confuse the devs into believing they messed up. I am not saying they havent messed up before, they have admitted to it on a few occasions. What I am saying, however, is that if you try some fresh tactics (the knowledge not the click power) you will find that Stalkers are quite balanced, so much so that if you go stalker watching (one of my fav things to do btw) you can see how often they dont land a target, accidentally step on some caltrops, etc.......

The real problem with pvp in general is people keep seeing the same l33t people out there as certain AT's killing hoards of others with TPfoe/team alpha or buildup/AS/placate/focus. I have a solution to everyone's problem.

Dont get stressed out because someone is better at something than you, feel at ease that there are people out there even better than that person, and when they arrive , I am sure Ill see the post that the better person's AT is gonna be on the boards with the l33t person saying they need to be nerfed.

Good day

Little Axe

Pilcrow

12-11-2005, 07:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is the one thing I currently dislike about the PvP zones at present, that you must constantly use your travel power to avoid the possibility of a Stalker creeping up behind you. It would be nice to be able to stand in one place and either take in the zone or fight without having to leap away after every few attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you simply don't like to be caught off guard, if you haven't noticed that's the entire point of the AT. To catch you when you least expect it and take you down as fast as they can. I have a feeling that until stalkers are completly gimped unable to sneak on people or take them down no one will ever be really "happy" with them because of the nature of the AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no need for them to be "completely gimped" over this issue. For the most part people don't have an issue with being sneak attacked - they have an issue with the very short period of time between initiation of sneak attack and death, which denies them the oppotunity to actually combat.

If Stalkers are such weak combatants that they cannot complete a kill after a successful sneak attack that eliminates, say, 50% of a recipients HP - then that needs to be fixed in tandem with any one-shot fix. And can be. It's not a binary either/or of "Stalkers get to one-shot or they will be gimped".

Bowghost

12-11-2005, 08:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A SR Scrapper has 1165 HP in Warburg. He has 28% defense, so it takes 1165 + 28%, or 1491 damage to kill him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analysis here is actually a little off... here is why

That 28% defense is subtracted from the base to-hit of 50%

Therefore you are going from 50% to 22% which is equivalant to a factor of 2.27 increase in survivability over an AT with zero defense.

Your stalker who has 23.5% defense will end up increasing his survivability by a factor of 1.89.

Therefore if we take scrappers to be the baseline HP we get survival figures something like this :

Scrapper = 1
Stalker = .62
Blaster = .40

This also ignores ACC enhancements and to-hit buffs but shows pretty clearly that with the numbers given the stalker has roughly 2 thirds the survivability of the scrapper.

But the stalker is also 55% more survivable than a blaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in all fairness it should be pointed out that your numbers are only good for one situation, same as Quason's. If the person trying to hit you were under the effect of Darkest Night or some other to-hit debuff that lowered their accuracy to 30% or so, then both Scrapper and Stalker Defense floors their accuracy. That lowers the importance of the hit point differential , and magnifies the importance of the Defense advantage they both have over a Blaster. On the other hand, at 130% accuracy-which should be easily reachable in short bursts for Aim/BU using Blasters-Stalker/Scrapper Defense is meaningless, and the importance of that HP difference is magnified. Heck, at that point the Blaster is more survivable than the Stalker, disregarding any active defense that either might have.Defense as a means of avoiding damage is much more complicated than Resistance, and much more dependant on your opponents capabilities.

What you can say is that Stalkers probably seem a little more squishy to themselves than they actually are, because a lot of the powers that allow people to see and attack them-Tactics, Targetting Drone, Aim, and yellow skittles-also (effectively) lower their defenses by raising their attackers ability to hit them. On the other hand, Stalkers probably seem less fragile than they are in reality to people who can't see them, because having the initiative and placate combine for fantastic effective defense. Stalker Defenses on top of that is icing-though it's pretty darn tasty icing.

BlackMagic_NA

12-11-2005, 08:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a balance issue, at it's core-at least, I don't think that Stalkers as-is are grossly unbalanced, and I'm not willing to say they're unbalanced at all 'til I've seen how things play out a bit more. I think this is an issue of style, and access.

The quick, brutal, one-shot style game naturally appeals to the kind of people who enjoy PvP the most. It's completely unforgiving-basically a series of manuevers to "get the drop" on your opponents and keep them from getting the drop on you. Stalkers are by far the best AT in this game for that playstyle, so naturally the people who enjoy that are playing Stalkers. They don't understand why people complain about being one-shotted. They don't object to it when it happens to them, so obviously anyone who does object is just whining.

People who have a more "casual" attitude towards PvP (at least in my experience) prefer fights with a little bit longer duration. They'd like to have a chance to use a wider variety of their powers, and would prefer to see more acts and counters in the actual fight, rather than in the buildup. They don't understand how anyone can get enjoyment from a 3 second fight-so obviously anyone who fights like that is an evil ganker who's only pleasure is to ruin everyone's day.

In truth, it's going to be awfully hard to satisfy both sides completely, but the PvP game as it plays right now is way to twitchy for me, whether I win or lose. I think that's true for the majority of players. Of course, we could just leave it to the people who enjoy it as it is. But in the long run if you want PvP to bve more than an awkward and little used appendage you're going to have to find some way to come to terms with the casual players who-face it-are the majority of this playerbase.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's IMHO, the best way this whole argument has ever been framed. ...Even as it's at odds with my own desires that AlphaStriking remain a viable tactic for a minority of encounters... But it highlights the fact that casual gamers are what really drives successful and entertaining PvP and Head-to-Head gaming... As proven by Counterstrike, Starcraft, and Battlefield.

The greatest PvP games have as many checks and balances set up as possible to ensure that most players can't just zip in and bypass the defenses and/or offenses of any other player. It's not the "1-shotting" that's the biggest problem, it's the ease at which it's being carried out that is continuing to drive casual gamers away from PvP.

...And YES! They ARE being driven away. I'm not talking about the Forum whiners here. I've spent too many hours to count in various PvP zones and have seen too many players already voice their discontent with being "unable to fight back" against so many of the cheap tactics being exploited in PvP. They do it in team chat, broadcast, and some even complain about it in PvE zones to discourage others from even trying PvP. It's the main reason that many AT's, both of the Villain and Hero factions stay out of PvP even though Castle and the devs have balanced team PvP to rely on those AT's also showing up to these zones. ...Masterminds and Dominators are the most noteable ones though in complaining about their defenses being bypassed instantly. So it's not just people facing Stalkers who are geting fed up with 5-second fights. ...You can't learn anything from a conflict when it ends before you've even realized it began.

Any PvP that doesn't give both players the opportunity to change the outcome of the fight, while the fight is happening will be loathed by the majority of players because the majority of players are not Quasons, they're not CircuitBoys, they're not Pilcrows(There's too many sucky illusion controllers out there as it is!), and they're certainly not _Castles_. They lack the creativity or raw math skills to narrow these issues down and figure out what "they're doing wrong". And yes Cryptic is Special, special in that they're never happy with the level of challenge they ask their players to face. But Cryptic is going to have to side with the carebears a little bit if all AT's are going to be welcome in PvP in order to support their design goal of having PvP built around Team vs Team matchups. You have to crawl before you can walk, just like most people solo for a while before they really get heavy into teaming.

And constant Insta-Gank is NOT solo-friendly ... thus it's discouraging the Teaming that PvP was built around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think both of these posts are exactly how most people are feeling about PvP. I've never really PvPed before so this is my first time really. I've changed my build and everything to try and combat stalkers and in the end it mostly seems like a two hit battle, with me having little or no time to react to what happened.

I love this idea....

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of letting people place you exactly where they want you, TP Foe places people at a random place around the summoner

[/ QUOTE ]

The summoner won't know exactly where the foe ends up, but still has a clear advantage, since he should still have the foe targetted. For melee classes it would be a TP Foe and the follow, for all other classes it's a TP Foe and then ranged attack or command.

The summoner could also still make traps or what not but them actually working would be an extreme case of luck.

I also liked the idea of all of us popping as AVs to each other, it kind of makes sense, we should maybe atleast show up as Elite Bosses to each other.

I want battles. Something where if I use the right powers and tactics I can stack my chances of coming out alive, but at the same time not being guaranteed the win. It doesn't matter if I'm fighting a dominator or a stalker, I want to atleast have the chance for a good fight. Right now I feel that stalkers are the only class that have the odds stacked so much in their favor that I can't counter it reliably.

Aethon_NA

12-11-2005, 08:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is the one thing I currently dislike about the PvP zones at present, that you must constantly use your travel power to avoid the possibility of a Stalker creeping up behind you. It would be nice to be able to stand in one place and either take in the zone or fight without having to leap away after every few attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you simply don't like to be caught off guard, if you haven't noticed that's the entire point of the AT. To catch you when you least expect it and take you down as fast as they can. I have a feeling that until stalkers are completly gimped unable to sneak on people or take them down no one will ever be really "happy" with them because of the nature of the AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no need for them to be "completely gimped" over this issue. For the most part people don't have an issue with being sneak attacked - they have an issue with the very short period of time between initiation of sneak attack and death, which denies them the oppotunity to actually combat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I don't have an issue with being sneak attacked or being nearly one shotted. I do have an issue being them both happening at the same time and happening more than once in short succession which, given the prevelance of Stalkers in PvP at the moment is a distinct possibility.

I don't want Stalkers to be gimped either, I think that their ability to one shot is an important part of their archetype. I also have absolutely no problem with being one shot. What I do think is the problem is, again mainly due to the prevelance of Stalkers atm, someone can get AS'd by a Stalker, go to the hospital, make their way back to a hotspot/fight, only to be one shotted again by another Stalker with absolutely no chance of detecting or defeating this attack.

(Aside: Yes someone could use Tactics etc, but as has been stated many times, PvP should not infulence PvE. It should not be necessary for any player to take a power or powerest in order to participate in PvP. If Tactics become essential, this is not the case.)

I'm just looking for a way not to 'gimp' Stalkers but to alter other game mechanics to allow Stalkers to continue as they are and also give other Archetypes some way of combating them. I've made some other suggestions here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ideas&Number=4283243&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=42 53636&Search=true&where=&Name=38422&daterange=&new erval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost4283243), if anyone is interested.

[ QUOTE ]

If Stalkers are such weak combatants that they cannot complete a kill after a successful sneak attack that eliminates, say, 50% of a recipients HP - then that needs to be fixed in tandem with any one-shot fix. And can be. It's not a binary either/or of "Stalkers get to one-shot or they will be gimped".

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted mainly for emphasis. This isn't a matter of 'Gimp AS/Stalkers or else'. Stalkers currently have a massive advantage in PvP which, given the right or should that be wrong circumstances, will completely ruin someone's first experience of PvP and stop them going anywhere near those zones again. Any change to AS should have a corresponding change to Stalkers other powers and I don't know anyone who is saying otherwise.

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 09:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok,the relavance of a stalkers hp is bs. My controller's hps is at the bottom of the rack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just in the interest of keeping this discussion factual, in warburg stalkers and controllers BOTH have 885 HP. So if your controllers hps are at the bottom of the rack... guess what your opinion about stalker HP must be?

As such I think it is important that we stop advocating that one AT has "terrible" defensive capacity while another has "great" defensive capacity until we run a few numbers to confirm or deny such a position.

From the way things seem to be turning out, the survivability of stalkers is pretty close to midway between scrappers and blasters.

With more accurate base power numbers I could work out the specifics.

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Assassin Strike. The Stalkers greeting card of sorts. This attack does massive damage when the stalker is hiding. This is broken up into two words. Assassin: N One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person. And Strike: V To hit sharply, as with the hand, the fist, or a weapon.

Well An assassin strike means roughly a sharp hit by someone meant to murder another person. An Assassin. I wonder why they would call it assassin strike if you couldn't in theory kill a foe in a single blow...... Wow ya know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I do not approve of your method of reasoning here... I see it as being on par with the statemens "scrappers scrap", "blasters blast", or "tankers tank".

The names we see in the game for powers are not supposed to be indicative of their effect... or should all broad sword scrappers get up in arms that their "head splitter" attack does not actually split anyone head open.

Presumably getting ones head split open should constitute an instant kill every time... so based upon your logic any attak that "sounds" lethal should be equivalant to instant death.

I also suppose the katana analogues will require new graphics as that final attack certainly does not look like a "golden dragonfly"... it looks suspiciously like an attack that would cleave someone in half... so I guess we are going to have to call it "body splitter" and make that one an instant death attack too.

Just as a side note... ONLY energy stalkers have "assassins strike"... the rest have different names for their attacks... so I guess you are going to have to verbally analize all of them to fit them into this theory.

Plus... to further your analysis... if we are going to go strictly by the names of things... what about the word "stalker" implies they are able to kill anything?... I guess they should only be good at following things around.

Unfortunately that sounds like a pretty boring job if you ask me.

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What you can say is that Stalkers probably seem a little more squishy to themselves than they actually are, because a lot of the powers that allow people to see and attack them-Tactics, Targetting Drone, Aim, and yellow skittles-also (effectively) lower their defenses by raising their attackers ability to hit them. On the other hand, Stalkers probably seem less fragile than they are in reality to people who can't see them, because having the initiative and placate combine for fantastic effective defense. Stalker Defenses on top of that is icing-though it's pretty darn tasty icing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have struck on an amazing synergy that I had not considered... the fact that most of the powers that permit you to see a stalker also directly counteract their defensive capabilities.... so in order to even contend with a stalker... you must invariably negate their defensive sets.

I do dissagree with you that defense is inherently more difficult to consider than resistance... I find them both to be equally easy to deal with and once I have some numbers on the stalker defensive sets I'd be happy to set up some information relating to a 0 ACC enhancer situation, 1 ACC enhancer situation, 2 ACC enhancer situation etc... it really is not as formidable as some people seem to think.

The same way acc enhancement directly counteracts defenses... damage enhancement directly counter acts resistance... as when we have 50% resistance to a power at baseline... and then double the damage we suddenly are dealing with 100% of the base power damage again, as opposed to half of it.

Personally I do not understand why stalkers would advocate that the solution to the problem they set up is for everyone to team with lots of leadership... IF that actually came to pass, stalkers would be completely useless, because everyone in the pvp zones would have massive +perception and massive to-hit buffs.

BlackMagic_NA

12-11-2005, 11:52 AM

Oceanborn

12-11-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I've been browsing some of the threads out there with the concern to stalkers and found/came-up with some interesting options. First off, like the devs have done it the past add facets to current powers, i.e. add +perception to thing that would make sense like possibly Super speed, Accelerate metabolism, Speed boost, or anything in the realm of adding alertness as a side-effect. It was done with certain mezz powers in I5, it can be done with perception too.

Another idea is taking current +perception powers, (diclaimer....not my original idea), adding +perception enhancements to current percption powers, Tactic in particular. If you can invest 3 +perception enhancements to a perception power and it would allow you to see thru stealth/hide, it would be more bearable to some folks. This is a raw concept, but a start to a solution.

A few more things I'd like to add. EVERY AT has been tweeked/nerfed for balance. You guys remember I5/6? So why is it such a outlandish idea to adjust a brand-new AT?

Second, many ppl aren't looking at the big picture. Ok, fine so if you wanna be viable in pvp you must take +perception and/or a AOE toggle. That's how stalker critics will tell you to "smarten up". Even when as mentioned by the devs, they dont want any person to be compelled to pick-up a specific pool power (e.g. Hasten/stamina). The temporary satisfaction of one-shotting all these so-called uber pvp builds, will fade just as that estatic feeling of breezing thru invincible solo missions at 50 or soloing AVs. I did it in another MMO, where challenge was non-existant, and I quit shortly after. Its not worth it in the long run, to ward-off solo/noob pvpers just for a short lived, cheap satisfaction. I dont want to see an environmet where all potention pvper are forced into picking up the Leadership pool, or forced to team ALL the time b/c of the allure of the stalker. I guarrantee the stalker population will rise if unchecked, just as all the other arena cookie-cutter builds have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you worried about the marketing of the game and the newbies that are coming into the game? It's not your place to do that. You're a player. You're setting off a bad example to the newcomers right in this very post. You're giving them negativity. If the newcomers should feel discouraged, it wouldn't be the Stalkers gimping them, it would be the people who are reacting negatively towards the certain situation instead of giving out several solutions to help them improve their gameplay.

And besides, not every single person is gonna feel the way that you do. You shouldn't base every newcomers feelings on your own because for all you know, 90% of the newcomers probably disagrees with your personal opinions. I'm all up for having a good gameplay environment, but you're making it worse with your "I hate Stalkers" rant.

Starsman

12-11-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Very true, stalkers should be able to one shot some mobs, but you also have to remember that you're dealing with heroes with super powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

And can you tell me where it says that being able to heal other people would make YOU inmune to a bullet trough your eyes?

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I read a lot of comics but would you ever expect wolverine to be taken out of comission in two hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he gets jumped by two equaly strong enemies that can strike from the shadows, sure i can.

[ QUOTE ]
or Storm or Jean Grey in one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cant count the many times i seen these get KOD in one shot. Heck, i seen Spiderman be KOD in one shot. Few are the heroes that can actually stand more than one well delivered punch.

Black_Scourge

12-11-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I've been browsing some of the threads out there with the concern to stalkers and found/came-up with some interesting options. First off, like the devs have done it the past add facets to current powers, i.e. add +perception to thing that would make sense like possibly Super speed, Accelerate metabolism, Speed boost, or anything in the realm of adding alertness as a side-effect. It was done with certain mezz powers in I5, it can be done with perception too.

Another idea is taking current +perception powers, (diclaimer....not my original idea), adding +perception enhancements to current percption powers, Tactic in particular. If you can invest 3 +perception enhancements to a perception power and it would allow you to see thru stealth/hide, it would be more bearable to some folks. This is a raw concept, but a start to a solution.

A few more things I'd like to add. EVERY AT has been tweeked/nerfed for balance. You guys remember I5/6? So why is it such a outlandish idea to adjust a brand-new AT?

Second, many ppl aren't looking at the big picture. Ok, fine so if you wanna be viable in pvp you must take +perception and/or a AOE toggle. That's how stalker critics will tell you to "smarten up". Even when as mentioned by the devs, they dont want any person to be compelled to pick-up a specific pool power (e.g. Hasten/stamina). The temporary satisfaction of one-shotting all these so-called uber pvp builds, will fade just as that estatic feeling of breezing thru invincible solo missions at 50 or soloing AVs. I did it in another MMO, where challenge was non-existant, and I quit shortly after. Its not worth it in the long run, to ward-off solo/noob pvpers just for a short lived, cheap satisfaction. I dont want to see an environmet where all potention pvper are forced into picking up the Leadership pool, or forced to team ALL the time b/c of the allure of the stalker. I guarrantee the stalker population will rise if unchecked, just as all the other arena cookie-cutter builds have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you worried about the marketing of the game and the newbies that are coming into the game? It's not your place to do that. You're a player. You're setting off a bad example to the newcomers right in this very post. You're giving them negativity. If the newcomers should feel discouraged, it wouldn't be the Stalkers gimping them, it would be the people who are reacting negatively towards the certain situation instead of giving out several solutions to help them improve their gameplay.

And besides, not every single person is gonna feel the way that you do. You shouldn't base every newcomers feelings on your own because for all you know, 90% of the newcomers probably disagrees with your personal opinions. I'm all up for having a good gameplay environment, but you're making it worse with your "I hate Stalkers" rant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yo buddy, what makes you think the greater populus of players or noobs read these boards? And two, I personally dont give a damn per se about the individual new-comers, I care for the PVP environment as a whole, which in reality, isnt made up of well-oiled, pvp machines and highly organized sgs. I dont wanna see pvp zone turn into graveyards because the zone turned into CounterStrike.

And who are you to tell me what MY job is? I'll tackle any task I choose to without getting permission for ppl like you. Thank you. If my arguement is weak against stalkers, then the devs will be the final judge of that.

LittleAxe

12-11-2005, 05:24 PM

I believe that the Assassin strike attack (when I say that I mean Assassin Strike/claw/blade/etc to the troll who responded before) is the only attack that Stalkers can pull off with relatively little danger (there is always the chance of missing or being spotted before an attack). Sure if they placate they can pull off another in quick succession but the problem with this is with non target AOE's it is viable to still damage said stalker.

and btw, every comic hero gets beaten easily once, learns from it, then goes out there and kicks extreme hiney. Wolverine beaten by Magneto, stripped of his adamantium then developed Bone claws.....Storm had to forcibly overcome her clostrophobia, Jean was "beaten" by the spirit of Dark Phoenix, and with Rogue's help overcame it and became more powerful because of it

Hunter2357

12-11-2005, 05:59 PM

The correction to your chosen method of argument is hardly "trollish"... your reasoning went something like this :

Stalkers should be able to 1-shot because they have a power with the name "assassin's strike"... you are basing your entirely rationale upon a flashy word the developers chose for the power.

Here is your actual statement :

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why they would call it assassin strike if you couldn't in theory kill a foe in a single blow

[/ QUOTE ]

As such I am confused as to why you do not have issues with the "invincibility" power not actually making a char invincible.

Or why when a blaster goes "nova" that the entire city isn't vaporized... because we know that a nova is an exploding star.

If you want to argue for keeping one-shotting please be my guest... but you are going to have to do better than the name of the power justifying the effect because just about every power in the game does not perform exactly as it's name might suggest.

That is the reason why the line of reasoning you offer is completely without merit in this case.

What you have to realize is that the effect of a given power goes well beyond what the power is called... most are much weaker than the name might indicate... so why should "assassin's strike" be exempt from this prevalant theme in the way the names of powers, and their ultimate effects are associated?

DarkPhoenix

12-11-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

(Aside: Yes someone could use Tactics etc, but as has been stated many times, PvP should not infulence PvE. It should not be necessary for any player to take a power or powerest in order to participate in PvP. If Tactics become essential, this is not the case.)

[/ QUOTE ]
that is a fallous argument, fire brutes that take acrobatics cannot take on flying blasters so they either have to take flight or TPFoe in order to deal with them by your reasoning that is wrong. What about the numerous blasters and controllers that have stealth and invis I am required to take +perception to see them so that is wrong by your analysis as well. There are too many things that simply are required in order to be competent against certain stratgies that just don't work in PVE. Do you really think the sudden popularity of TPfoe in PVP is because it's so good in PVE :p

Starsman

12-11-2005, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aside: Yes someone could use Tactics etc, but as has been stated many times, PvP should not infulence PvE. It should not be necessary for any player to take a power or powerest in order to participate in PvP. If Tactics become essential, this is not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

PvP not influencing PvE means that the devs will attempt all they can so that any change to the game because of PvP does not affect PvE.

It does not means that you should be able to taunt and herd and burn players as you would in PvE or so on. If you wish to take active part of PvP you SHOULD be influenced drasticaly by this on your desitions. If you, however, decide to ignore PvP, you should never be forced to do something that is PvP oriented. That is all that ideal stands for, dont go around twisting it.

Zenni

12-11-2005, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That is all that ideal stands for, dont go around twisting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

I ask only because some of us (an assumption, really; it could quite possibly [and depressingly] be only I) hold the phrase to a fairly different meaning, and I see nothing which would suggest that there was an error in my doing so. And if there was such an error, then I would greatly appreciate being made aware of it, so that I would know of the need to search for a new term upon which to pin my prefered ideal, to prevent any confusion.

DustyFarrell

12-12-2005, 02:04 AM

Okay, I've read through 80% (literally) of this thread. The discussion has ranged from overpowered Stalkers (or not) to Grand Unified Theory of Everything (an impossibility in my mind, but I'm no scientist). The one post that made me smile ended with a call for a nice global thermonuclear war. An apt solution I sometimes think, but rather irrelevant here and now. As an aside, if Anne Coulter becomes president in 2008 I will gladly surrender my dark blue passport.

Chess
Checkers
Go
Shogi
Othello

Five games. All rely on two opposing, perfectly balanced powersets and a grid to move the pieces over. All are pure PvP games of skill, with no luck or randomization involved. All have simple rulesets and can be played anytime, anywhere. Also, if you lack the proper pieces, they can be easily substituted. All five games are thousands of years old.

A beginner can learn any of those five games in half an hour or less. A master will spend a lifetime studying them and still have things to learn.

In my never humble opinion the PvP aspect of MMORPGs is completely unworkable, and will remain so for a long time to come. It is overly complex, always depends on some element of randomization, easily exploited, and caters to bullying rather than fair play. In my experience PvP in MMORPGs is boring because it always come down to one of two things:

who has the better built toon
who gets lucky with the seed algorithm

and in the very worst cases, a combination of the two. I find discussions of "skill" amusing when they are harmless, and completely laughable when they are serious. "Skill" in a PvP-enabled MMORPG is a minor element, when it has any impact at all. It's never about skill. It's always about the numbers. I'm sorry, but any other approach is simply delusional. (Using TP Foe to drop an opponent onto Caltrops and a trio of mines, for example. How is that "skill"? :confused: If anything, it's an exploit because it puts complete power in the hands of /Dev or /Traps player.)

CoV has not broken the mold. If anything, it has reinforced it. Discussions like this one will never end until someone, somewhere has the guts, genius, and sheer luck, to create a PvP-enabled MMORPG that captures the same simplicity/complexity dichotomy as any of the classic games I've listed above.

Nerfing Stalkers is not the answer. Balancing Perception/Stealth is not the answer, either. Greater simplification, not greater complexity, is the only route that can hope to bring success.

The one poster who proposed that any PvE build should also be PvP viable has the right idea. Only when the worst PvE build imaginable can walk into a PvP area and compete well enough that the player who built it will come away with a greater appreciation for the game itself will this or any other game come close to matching the elegance of the Classics.

If you're looking for a realistically balanced PvP model, Halo is not the answer. Look to the Classic board games and find some way to incorporate that same level of consistency, predictability, simplicity in content, and complexity in mastery. Cryptic needs to be looking for a way to make each player's PvP experience as easy to learn as Othello, as intellectually demanding as Go, and just as simple to learn as two sets of black and white stones on a fixed grid.

Each indivdual player, by the way, not each team! Attempting to force team-based or faction-based PvP onto the player is the first step down the wrong road. Factions and teams can be both important and relevant, no reason for them not to be, but it is the individual player that pays a monthly subscription fee and must come away from the game feeling content.

According to Nick Yee's Daedalus Project (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus), 75% of the overall MMORPG playerbase currently does not enjoy PvP and 5% or less actively participate in PvP. Those are the numbers you need to change if you want the PvP portion of CoV/CoH to ever be anything more than a freaky sideshow.

In terms of suggestions... Well, for starters don't let Hide stack with Stealth, but even that is only a short-term solution. The only long-term solution is to treat the PvP game as completely separate from the PvE one. It needs a completely different ruleset and a completely different set of goals. Until we reach the point where a computer AI can match the creativity of a human mind, mixing the two will never work to anyone's satisfaction.

Greater simplicity, not greater complexity. Any other approach will only lead to an endless chain of "balancing" and huge numbers of frustrated players.

Kellen_Wolf

12-12-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I've read through 80% (literally) of this thread. The discussion has ranged from overpowered Stalkers (or not) to Grand Unified Theory of Everything (an impossibility in my mind, but I'm no scientist). The one post that made me smile ended with a call for a nice global thermonuclear war. An apt solution I sometimes think, but rather irrelevant here and now. As an aside, if Anne Coulter becomes president in 2008 I will gladly surrender my dark blue passport.

Chess
Checkers
Go
Shogi
Othello

Five games. All rely on two opposing, perfectly balanced powersets and a grid to move the pieces over. All are pure PvP games of skill, with no luck or randomization involved. All have simple rulesets and can be played anytime, anywhere. Also, if you lack the proper pieces, they can be easily substituted. All five games are thousands of years old.

A beginner can learn any of those five games in half an hour or less. A master will spend a lifetime studying them and still have things to learn.

In my never humble opinion the PvP aspect of MMORPGs is completely unworkable, and will remain so for a long time to come. It is overly complex, always depends on some element of randomization, easily exploited, and caters to bullying rather than fair play. In my experience PvP in MMORPGs is boring because it always come down to one of two things:

who has the better built toon
who gets lucky with the seed algorithm

and in the very worst cases, a combination of the two. I find discussions of "skill" amusing when they are harmless, and completely laughable when they are serious. "Skill" in a PvP-enabled MMORPG is a minor element, when it has any impact at all. It's never about skill. It's always about the numbers. I'm sorry, but any other approach is simply delusional. (Using TP Foe to drop an opponent onto Caltrops and a trio of mines, for example. How is that "skill"? :confused: If anything, it's an exploit because it puts complete power in the hands of /Dev or /Traps player.)

CoV has not broken the mold. If anything, it has reinforced it. Discussions like this one will never end until someone, somewhere has the guts, genius, and sheer luck, to create a PvP-enabled MMORPG that captures the same simplicity/complexity dichotomy as any of the classic games I've listed above.

Nerfing Stalkers is not the answer. Balancing Perception/Stealth is not the answer, either. Greater simplification, not greater complexity, is the only route that can hope to bring success.

The one poster who proposed that any PvE build should also be PvP viable has the right idea. Only when the worst PvE build imaginable can walk into a PvP area and compete well enough that the player who built it will come away with a greater appreciation for the game itself will this or any other game come close to matching the elegance of the Classics.

If you're looking for a realistically balanced PvP model, Halo is not the answer. Look to the Classic board games and find some way to incorporate that same level of consistency, predictability, simplicity in content, and complexity in mastery. Cryptic needs to be looking for a way to make each player's PvP experience as easy to learn as Othello, as intellectually demanding as Go, and just as simple to learn as two sets of black and white stones on a fixed grid.

Each indivdual player, by the way, not each team! Attempting to force team-based or faction-based PvP onto the player is the first step down the wrong road. Factions and teams can be both important and relevant, no reason for them not to be, but it is the individual player that pays a monthly subscription fee and must come away from the game feeling content.

According to Nick Yee's Daedalus Project (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus), 75% of the overall MMORPG playerbase currently does not enjoy PvP and 5% or less actively participate in PvP. Those are the numbers you need to change if you want the PvP portion of CoV/CoH to ever be anything more than a freaky sideshow.

In terms of suggestions... Well, for starters don't let Hide stack with Stealth, but even that is only a short-term solution. The only long-term solution is to treat the PvP game as completely separate from the PvE one. It needs a completely different ruleset and a completely different set of goals. Until we reach the point where a computer AI can match the creativity of a human mind, mixing the two will never work to anyone's satisfaction.

Greater simplicity, not greater complexity. Any other approach will only lead to an endless chain of "balancing" and huge numbers of frustrated players.

[/ QUOTE ]Excellent post, very well written. And every thing you say is true, in my opinion.

the only way that the complaining and, "nerf this and that cause it's overpowered", talk is going to stop, is when everyone enters the PvP zone and they have the exact same powers, exact same HP.

People have used games like 'Halo' as an example..well people still complain about how this weapon or that is overpowered and needs to be balanced..same is said for every single MMO I've ever played or read about.

It will not end, and I've said it before and will say it again; once the nerf squad is done w/stalkers it will be on to the next AT/Power/Set. This community has been doing it for a year and a half..and that was just over who could lvl faster.

LittleAxe

12-12-2005, 03:11 AM

Ok lets take your reasoning into account, lets remove Assassin's strike for the reason that when used on another player it has a good chance of killing the other player provided the stalker is hitting close to damage cap. And while we are at it lets make Nova a close range single target medium damage attack as well, oh yeah lets also limit the number of mines to 2 at a time, increase the recharge of caltrops, Make TP foe give the foe detention shield for 15 seconds, Oh yeah and make sniper attacks do 3 damage. Everyone here would be happy with pvp right??????

WRONGO buddy

Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

Nova would also be useless

TP foe would be pointless

Mines wouldnt kill anything

Sniper shot would be a taunt and end up killin the users

Caltrops wouldnt be worth anything

So this would "Balance everything according to your POV"

I got a better idea! lets make PVP Turn based! That would give everyone time to do what they want! Each person could attack once per turn and eliminate suprise attacks entirely!

Enjoy your dream, in fact, keep it your dream. I for one have no problem with stalkers, blasters, tankers, khelds, scrappers, defenders, controllers, brutes, corruptors, masterminds. All of them have weaknesses, all of them have strengths, focus on your weakness and you will find how to remedy it.

And for the record, I think you should find a way to loosen up about gettin killed in pvp, instead of gettin all riled up about a post someone puts on the boards defending a very well balanced AT why dont you go have fun doin PVE, I am sure that the NPC mobs wont post how you are overpowered to them.

:)

Quason

12-12-2005, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
According to Nick Yee's Daedalus Project, 75% of the overall MMORPG playerbase currently does not enjoy PvP and 5% or less actively participate in PvP. Those are the numbers you need to change if you want the PvP portion of CoV/CoH to ever be anything more than a freaky sideshow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here or something, but I don't see the problem with PvP being the freaky sideshow. I'm rather happy living within the fringes of the fringe of society. *shrug*

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 05:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

[/ QUOTE ]
These are phrase from the devs themselves that were first brought up when players were worried that PVP changes would ruin PVE. You can look at statesman and positron past quotes but I can paraphrase.

"PVP should not affect PVE however they are some case where PVP issues will play a part in PVE."

Whether or not they have held that to be true is debatable as I think many changes were purely PVP driven. I cringe everytime the dev make changes and say PVP was involved because simple reason being PVP is a sidedish. It's something to do when you are bored and want to kill time or goof around. I know there are hard core PVPers but they are the minority the kind of animosity (ganking, childish behavior, cursing) and nerf herding (see stalkers and the pvp threads) PVP brings makes it very unatractive to most. I know there are a few that don't participate in this kind of behavior but I can count with one hand how many i have met.

Work_Ethic

12-12-2005, 05:39 AM

How about if you go into a PVP zone and you have a toggle that allows you to become un-targetable if you choose NOT to engage in PVP in a PVP zone. BUT the hand off is that your costume turns bright yellow and when you go to "chat" it broadcasts "Cluck cluck, Becawk, Bawk, Bawk, Bawk".

:D

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 06:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

[/ QUOTE ]

PVP changes don't have to effect PVE.

If the entire AT is "gimped" if a single power is nerfed/not taken, then the AT is broken.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 07:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

[/ QUOTE ]

PVP changes don't have to effect PVE.

If the entire AT is "gimped" if a single power is nerfed/not taken, then the AT is broken.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with that statesment I have read some of your suggestion and think they would go a long way to make stalkers more balanced. But as it currently stands for most of the stalkers carreer AS is all that he really brings to the team or solo play. If that were to be taken away stalkers would basically be a watered down scrappers with a controllled critical.

LittleAxe

12-12-2005, 07:19 AM

almost exactly what I am trying to say, Stalkers without AS is as effective as a blaster trying to tank. The AT is balanced and a nerf would in fact Break the AT

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 07:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

[/ QUOTE ]

PVP changes don't have to effect PVE.

If the entire AT is "gimped" if a single power is nerfed/not taken, then the AT is broken.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with that statesment I have read some of your suggestion and think they would go a long way to make stalkers more balanced. But as it currently stands for most of the stalkers carreer AS is all that he really brings to the team or solo play. If that were to be taken away stalkers would basically be a watered down scrappers with a controllled critical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do feel that IF it is true that a Stalker really only has AS to bring to the table (mine is still in under 20 and that's not my experience so far, but there's a lot of game left to play), then something else needs to be put there to keep the AT viable.

I'm just saying that the argument of Kill AS = Kill Stalkers ergo no fixing AS/one-shotting is faulty. If it's true, we still need to fix AS/one-shotting and also fix Stalkers so they aren't so dependent on a single power.

Primal

12-12-2005, 08:13 AM

I only have one thing to say about this issue, so I'll just say it without further ado:

Whatever happens in PvP...I couldn't care less, as I don't bother with it. Those who are interested in it can hash out the AS there. However, if AS is made a NON one-shot kill in PvE, I will be VERY pissed off. That would make every fear I (and many others) had about PvP intruding into PvE come true, and would be the beginning of the end. I *LIKE* the way my PvE Stalker plays, and changing that for PvP reasons would break the game for me.

Now, if AS changes ONLY effect PvP? No skin off me. Like I said, I'll let those affected by such things argue about that.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok lets take your reasoning into account, lets remove Assassin's strike for the reason that when used on another player it has a good chance of killing the other player provided the stalker is hitting close to damage cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said this was my reasoning?

I never once advocated for AS to be removed from the game, and the fact that you are stating that I have only goes to show that you are not so much interested in having an honest debate as you are at furthering your own position at all costs (even if that cost is understanding the positions of others).

What you have done here is created your own argument to argue against... I have stated NONE of the things you have said... and then you claim I am wrong.

I might very well make up your argument too... however I actually addressed the content of your post, so you can be rest assured that my arguments were against your actual position.

[ QUOTE ]
Eliminate AS or reduce the damage by 1/2 even would make stalkers uneffective in pvp and even less effective solo in pve

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is saying to eliminate AS or to just cut the damage by 50% (or at least I am not)... so why don't you see my position for what it is instead of this craziness that you are purporting it to be for your own convenience.

Next you will say I am advocating for stalkers to be taken out of the game completely... well let me cut you off at the pass and tell you that is also not something I desire.

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy your dream, in fact, keep it your dream.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry... everything you stated is your own delusional fantasy... not mine.

All I have been trying to tell you from the beginning is that the name of a power does not impact the actual game mechanics... NONE of the powers function entirely because of what they are called... as such any argument predicated upon the name is ultimately flawed.

[ QUOTE ]
And for the record, I think you should find a way to loosen up about gettin killed in pvp

[/ QUOTE ]

I also never stated any occurance that would lead one to believe I was getting killed in pvp... another made up argument you have presented here.

Feel free to argue for 1-shotting... but I would ask that you refrain from telling me what my opinion is when you do so. If that is all the ammo you have in your logical arsenal then you are shooting blanks.

Now if you desire to present your own game experience... and your own opinions, I would love to read them... but the second you start telling me what my own position is without backing it up with evidence (i.e. a quote) is the second you lose credibility so far as I am concerned.

Helmkat

12-12-2005, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
almost exactly what I am trying to say, Stalkers without AS is as effective as a blaster trying to tank. The AT is balanced and a nerf would in fact Break the AT

[/ QUOTE ]

Very bad analogy. A Stalker without AS would be like a blaster without a snipe. Since day one of this game many people have pigeonholed a number of AT's i.e. "A tank without taunt is not a tank", "Defenders are Healers" we all know this is not true and to say a Stalker without AS is "broken" is not true either.

Back to the point of this thread, I have said it before and I will saw it again, not one Stalker power needs to be touched to balance them out in pvp. The only thing that needs to change is the Hide+Stealth combo.

Turn it off and suddenly everything changes.

Shadestorm

12-12-2005, 09:01 AM

Hello, I'm a stalker. I enjoy PvP but I spend more time in PvE.

It seems that one shotting from stalkers in PvP is the issue here because you're much less likely to see the well built stalker than the stealthed blaster. Truth be told, there aren't any huge threads about any other AT with "one shot" capability.

I have faith in Cryptic, I made a post in the stalker forums about this, but looking at the I6-current patch notes I count roughly twice as many AT based buffs as nerf, whether result of a bug fix or planned change.

So it seems then that the problem, with stalkers at least, is less the one shotting and more the inability of the *average* player such as myself without a character that's built for PvP.

The extremes of PvP builds and their arguments look like Tactics and the stalkers taking stealth. While both serve a function in a PvE build, they're generally less useful there than in PvP.

So here's my suggestion:

Add +perception and +stealth enhancements. Allow these to be slotted to any power with that respective capability. This allows soloists on either side to effectively use these powers to best effect, at a tradeoff of defense. This means that while the advantages of tactics will still be viable, multiple stacked instances of tactics won't be nearly required, nor will stacking stealth and hide.

Make hide non-stackable. An AT built on stealth, taking the "lower grade" stealth power in order to remain on top of the game just seems silly conceptually, and is a large cause of grief. Also, other than a cursory defense buff that can be better obtained from other pool powers or secondary powers it serves little to no function in PvE. I haven't taken this power for these reasons.

Make placate require a hit check in PvP. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be fairly easy for a stalker to placate a player opponent, but it shouldn't be automatic. High accuracy, yes, automatic, no. The power doesn't currently accept accuracy enhancements, and this should remain so. This allows players with a +defense component to be equipped to deal with one of the stalker's best toys. Higher HP targets are well equipped versus the initial strike, but these targets would be less equipped to deal with the placate. This suggestion somewhat levels out the resistance to stalker toys, as currently the +defense powersets have few options at retaliation, even though they are better equipped to unintentionally avoid the initial strike.

It's not my job to design the game, but I think that the suggestions outlined here may be a step toward balancing the key issues players seem to have with stalkers in PvP without completely changing the essence of the AT.

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 09:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I only have one thing to say about this issue, so I'll just say it without further ado:

Whatever happens in PvP...I couldn't care less, as I don't bother with it. Those who are interested in it can hash out the AS there. However, if AS is made a NON one-shot kill in PvE, I will be VERY pissed off. That would make every fear I (and many others) had about PvP intruding into PvE come true, and would be the beginning of the end. I *LIKE* the way my PvE Stalker plays, and changing that for PvP reasons would break the game for me.

Now, if AS changes ONLY effect PvP? No skin off me. Like I said, I'll let those affected by such things argue about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post from Castle (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=stalker&Number=4123506&For um=All_Forums&Words=shot&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=4117625&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=134522&da terange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&olderty pe=&bodyprev=#Post4123506) should be of interest to you then.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I asked for clarification on this when it was mentioned on the beta boards. The code will be for PLAYERS ONLY, meaning that a player will not be one-shotted by players OR by mobs. Players will still be able to one-shot mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's the basic idea, yes. It would be pretty annoying for a level 50 scrapper to hit a level 1 Hellion and not take him down instantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Starsman

12-12-2005, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Statesman and company have stated many times that what they mean with their offten missquoted line is mainly they will not take desicions that affect PvE due to PvP. Mainly it really means: no nerfs will come to PvE due to PvP.

As for finding you a quote, i'll do a search but these forums get inactive threads deleted every week so i may not find any currently. You can always PM states himself if that is what he means, he takes his time, but often if the PMs are serious he may reply.

Now, PvP is an entire diferent playstyle, and as such, if you want to be optimal you do need to build for it instead of PvE. Heck, there are builds that are done specificaly to deal with one type of enemy and farm them to death even if they fail against other types of enemies, it is imposible to expect there to be a build that can work optimaly on every single situation.

Sampoerna

12-12-2005, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the link Pilcrow. I must have overlooked that one since I was looking through their posts for just that. My greatest concern is at rest now. :D

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh? You mean there is a definite, absolute history of the etmology of the phrase "PvP not influencing PvE" for these boards? If there is, would you please do me the courtesy of citing it? And if not, could you please do us all the courtesy of not asserting your own ideal as the greater, better, truer meaning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Statesman and company have stated many times that what they mean with their offten missquoted line is mainly they will not take desicions that affect PvE due to PvP. Mainly it really means: no nerfs will come to PvE due to PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out. States and crew have said they will not make any PVE changes SOLELY for PVP reasons. That doesn't mean they will not change PVE for reasons that are primarily for PVP.

In reality, many things they say are issues in PVE were somehow magically discovered and/or raised in priority for a fix because they were causing significant problems in PVP. Had PVP not come along, they might have remained unchanged due to the devs either not noticing.

[ QUOTE ]
As for finding you a quote, i'll do a search but these forums get inactive threads deleted every week so i may not find any currently. You can always PM states himself if that is what he means, he takes his time, but often if the PMs are serious he may reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless a MOD deletes them, redname posts stay on the boards forever - they are immune to the auto purges. That's why I can find posts like

Statesman clarifies his PVP/PVE statment (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=2756632&For um=All_Forums&Words=solely&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=2749616&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=509&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=1#Post2756632):

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

And This (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=2756553&For um=All_Forums&Words=solely&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=2748407&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=509&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=1#Post2756553)

[ QUOTE ]
We endeavor NOT to change powers solely because of PvP. The powers we are changing are usually because of PvE or PvE AND PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

And This (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=3097353&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=solely&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main= 3097353&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=509&dateran ge=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=1#Post3097353)

[ QUOTE ]
“PvE will never be changed solely because of PvP.” I don’t want any PvP problem to be solved with a PvE change – unless there’s also a problem in PvE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, it helps to search under CuppaJo's name because she posts in his stead (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=4223723&bodypre v=#Post4223723) somtimes:

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you seemingly designing this game around PvP when only a very small percentage of people even partake in it?

There are very, very few things that we’ve done with PvP in mind. Travel Suppression is often given as an example – but that isn’t true. During Beta, we noticed that players would Fly and Snipe away from mobs beyond their range – and essentially gain XP for no risk. We instituted an Accuracy penalty to discourage this gameplay. We noticed early in Live that the same thing was happening with Super Jump and Super Speed; a player could zoom in with either power, attack and escape with impunity. It’s not that we minded escaping, because travel powers should help with that, but the issue was that the travel powers were being used to get XP for no risk. We initially added an Accuracy component, but players didn’t like it as much, because it seemed to remove completely the option of attacking while traveling. I agreed and we went back to the drawing board – and came up with Suppression.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, PvP is an entire diferent playstyle, and as such, if you want to be optimal you do need to build for it instead of PvE. Heck, there are builds that are done specificaly to deal with one type of enemy and farm them to death even if they fail against other types of enemies, it is imposible to expect there to be a build that can work optimaly on every single situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Optimal != Functional

A build that performs well in PVE ought to be able to perform decently in PVP. That's why these answers of "get tactics" are a bit funky. You shouldn't have to get a specific power or to be decent in PVP.

There was a similar issue with Status protections . People used to say "get acrobatics", but you shouldn't have to get a specific power or pool to be decent at PVP. And, lo and behold, status protections are now sprinkled throughout the shared pools.

I'd suggest they do the same thing with +perception, but +perception stacks much better than status defense do.

Starsman

12-12-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A build that performs well in PVE ought to be able to perform decently in PVP. That's why these answers of "get tactics" are a bit funky. You shouldn't have to get a specific power or to be decent in PVP.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a performs well in PvE does not has to be decent in PvP, it simply should not be entirely useless in other words, it should function in some situations. The topic at hand is oneshot, not every enemy can oneshoot, and stalkers are just one of 5 posible enemy ATs you can find if you play a hero on PvP. The fact that if you dont build for it you are vulnerabel to 20% of the ATs does not make you by any chance useless, not even close to just decent.

[ QUOTE ]
There was a similar issue with Status protections . People used to say "get acrobatics", but you shouldn't have to get a specific power or pool to be decent at PVP. And, lo and behold, status protections are now sprinkled throughout the shared pools.

[/ QUOTE ]

Status protection is the realm of melee, and few powers actually provide any status protection.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd suggest they do the same thing with +perception, but +perception stacks much better than status defense do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add too many options and suddenly everyone will auto negate Hide and stealth without even trying, that is definitively overpowered.

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 11:58 AM

We'll just agree to disagree on how much of the utility of a build should cross over from PVE to PVP.

But the pretention that one should have to buy a specific power to counter each AT strikes me as odd. That means 9 powers we'd have to buy to have a counter to each AT. Not an "I WIN" button, just a "They don't necessarily win" button. That's seems a bit over the top.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd suggest they do the same thing with +perception, but +perception stacks much better than status defense do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add too many options and suddenly everyone will auto negate Hide and stealth without even trying, that is definitively overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the central issue with the Stalker AT. Either you are at their mercy or they are at yours. Since the key to your defense (perception) is also the key to being their bane, you can't protect yourself from them without becoming "overpowered".

I can make myself a hard target for scrappers/brutes/tankers by having fast movement. But this fast movement doesn't help me to penetrate their shields any better.

I can make myself a hard target for most controllers/dominators by having status protection and DEF. But status protection and DEF don't help me to actually cause them harm.

I can make myself a hard target for blasters/corruptors/defenders by getting and slotting up defenses. But those defenses don't help me to defeat those opponents.

For Stalkers, the prescription is +perception. But offering that as a defense is like offering control as a defense. It not only protects you, it makes them vulnerable.

Fortunately for us, there is no class for which control is the only counter. But for stalkers, we're not so lucky.

One alternative to +perception that people have discussed is PBAEs. These can disrupt an AS, and deliver little enough offensive punch that they can be viewed as primarly defensive in any short battle. But there are three key problems with that solution:

<ul type="square"> PBAEs are not in the shared pools, so not everyone can get them
3/4 Stalker secondaries are focused on DEF, which makes the PBAEs significantly less effective as a preventative
Stalkers get a massive protection vs. AE when hidden
[/list]

So, if we're going to say that the availability +perception will make everyone else "definitively overpowered" in PVP in relation to Stalkers, then we have to figure out some other way by which people can protect themselves from stalkers. Some method that protects them without opening the Stalker to becoming the prey.

Nigma_NA

12-12-2005, 12:13 PM

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 12:18 PM

You have really touched on a great many issues here that while not a "one-shotting" issue... are things that really need to be thought about.

At present the mez scenario has been solved to a certain extent by "sprinkling" the power pools with various defensive measures.

I can take health if I want to be less susceptible to sleep.

I can take heal self if I want to be less susceptible to disorients.

I can take acrobatics if I want to be less susceptible to knockdowns.

There are MANY types of mez effects and the like which interrupt ones ability to use their powers... so it is not an "all or nothing" situation.

Perception as it stands now is "all or nothing" and that is where the problem resides... if everyone takes tactics, not only will stalkers be unable to hide from anyone... but tactics gives overlapping to-hit buffs which will negate their defensive sets entirely.

If tactics is the solution then stalkers are in BIG trouble if the gaming population decides to listen to that advice because if everyone takes tactics just to contend with stalkers... suddenly stalkers become completely useless.

The solution to the perception problem is probably to make it less two sided... it needs to have more depth to it for it to function well.

Perhaps a system where all chars have an inherently boosted perception directly in front of them... that way a stalker needs to sneek up behind their target... but if for some reason their target spins around there is a chance they will be seen and attacked.

This way everyone has a "chance" to see a stalker when he is nearby... not a situation where you are guaranteed to see them, or you cannot see them period.

Black_Scourge

12-12-2005, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
almost exactly what I am trying to say, Stalkers without AS is as effective as a blaster trying to tank. The AT is balanced and a nerf would in fact Break the AT

[/ QUOTE ]

Break the AT? Wow, are we being a little over dramatic here? So your saying if AS+ BU only left ppl in PVP with a sliver of hps which required you to follow up with a second fast attack to finish your oppenent off, this would break the AT? Come on give me a break.

There's a few lvl 40 stalkers in my sg that pvp consistantly. You know what they do when they cant AS? They sneak up on someone, hit BU, TF, ET, and BS. Guess what most ppl are dead after that chain of attacks anyhow. The disorients combined with the extreme dmg, combined with the toggle dropping wipe most toons. Some cry me a river with your broken AT.

Nigma_NA

12-12-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
almost exactly what I am trying to say, Stalkers without AS is as effective as a blaster trying to tank. The AT is balanced and a nerf would in fact Break the AT

[/ QUOTE ]

Break the AT? Wow, are we being a little over dramatic here? So your saying if AS+ BU only left ppl in PVP with a sliver of hps which required you to follow up with a second fast attack to finish your oppenent off, this would break the AT? Come on give me a break.

There's a few lvl 40 stalkers in my sg that pvp consistantly. You know what they do when they cant AS? They sneak up on someone, hit BU, TF, ET, and BS. Guess what most ppl are dead after that chain of attacks anyhow. The disorients combined with the extreme dmg, combined with the toggle dropping wipe most toons. Some cry me a river with your broken AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again another wonderful post. When does using two attack mean your using your AT. If your only using two attack then your not playing your toon right. If you can win with twi attacks something is wrong.

Who ever said that will break stalkers if the AS dmg was reduced go play as a rogue on WoW and see what kind of dmg can be done by a stealth class out of stealth.

Dysmal

12-12-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]

For Stalkers, the prescription is +perception. But offering that as a defense is like offering control as a defense. It not only protects you, it makes them vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not really the same. Using control prevents the opponent from acting, or limits their actions (in the case of an immobolize). +Perception doesnt limit the Stalker's ability to act and react, and use the other tools they have beside's Hide to fight and/or flee.

Given that Stalkers have equivalent defensives to Scrappers (or in the case of some sets like Ninjutsu, trade defensive capability for utility and control) I really dont buy the line of thinking that a visible Stalker is somehow extremely vulnerable. A visible Stalker is not necessarily at the mecy of the person who can see them.

TheArtifex

12-12-2005, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Who ever said that will break stalkers if the AS dmg was reduced go play as a rogue on WoW and see what kind of dmg can be done by a stealth class out of stealth.

[/ QUOTE ]

WoW Rogues (at least when I played one, I don't know what changes have been made since I left WoW to come back to CoH) were one of the best-balanced of this type of character archetype that I've seen in a MMOG, and it was precisely because of this reason. Being able to frontload from stealth was a signature attack, but it was by no means the only thing that they could do, nor was it anything resembling an instant kill. WoW Rogues have a ton of nasty mez effects, poisons to slow, blind, DoT, etc. They were balanced because, like any other class, they were only successful if you drew from all of the tools the class has to offer. That simply isn't true in CoH, as is evidenced by the number of assertions that limiting the effectiveness of AS would ruin the class.

As a Stalker player myself, I sure as hell don't want to be a one-trick pony. I'm perfectly willing to see alpha strikes get reduced in exchange for some extra bit of roguish utility that helps me in situations where not everything is going my way.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given that Stalkers have equivalent defensives to Scrappers (or in the case of some sets like Ninjutsu, trade defensive capability for utility and control) I really dont buy the line of thinking that a visible Stalker is somehow extremely vulnerable. A visible Stalker is not necessarily at the mecy of the person who can see them.

[/ QUOTE ]
most of the stalkers secondary are def roughly the equivalent of one luck and that's pushing it now take a guess how many builds have (build up, aim, targeting drone, rage or just plain accuracy inpiration) and how long it would take them to drop a stalker. Ninjitsu gets some cool toys but those toys are get me the hell out of here or set a trap tricks not stay and fight for long toys. I don't have a regen stalker so I am not sure how sturdy one is, scrappers on the other hand have two resistance sets one of which has major utility (dark armor). Also consider that stalkers have less HP than scrappers and an higher BI then even blasters, that also lowers their chance of survival you may not be buying it but it's the reality of it.

Starsman

12-12-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But the pretention that one should have to buy a specific power to counter each AT strikes me as odd. That means 9 powers we'd have to buy to have a counter to each AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or simply accept that you cant posibly win against every single AT.

As for other ways to prevent being killed by a stalker, +Def WILL help you against stalkers (AS is not auto hit)

Sure, its usualy coupled with a lot of acc buffs, but still it is posible to miss.

The only thing i would say does need some change, and this is not only for stalkers, is supression. The 4 seconds that are there currently are too short. After attacking players there should be a 15 to 20 seconds of supression of travel powers (teleport included), phase shifts, and stealth powers. This would actually make the desition to attack a real risk one.

Right now being able to jump in, kill, and run away is a bit unrisky. 4 seconds can be too little for a human to get to target you, specialy on a crouded space where tab will just jump arround everyone and targetting with mouse can get tricky.

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But the pretention that one should have to buy a specific power to counter each AT strikes me as odd. That means 9 powers we'd have to buy to have a counter to each AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or simply accept that you cant posibly win against every single AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss this sentence in my post? I doubt it.

[ QUOTE ]
Not an "I WIN" button, just a "They don't necessarily win" button.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing i would say does need some change, and this is not only for stalkers, is supression. The 4 seconds that are there currently are too short. After attacking players there should be a 15 to 20 seconds of supression of travel powers (teleport included), phase shifts, and stealth powers. This would actually make the desition to attack a real risk one.

Right now being able to jump in, kill, and run away is a bit unrisky. 4 seconds can be too little for a human to get to target you, specialy on a crouded space where tab will just jump arround everyone and targetting with mouse can get tricky.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid point. While I think a larger change is warranted, I can see this as a place where reasonable people can disagree.

But I would add that one of the key ways Stalkers (and other stealthers) have an unfair advantage in PVP at current is in his ability to pick his battles. I think things like "info" that allow a Stalker to size you up in detail before striking should be disabled in PVP zones. It's no risk to take on an opponent you know didn't buy the countermeasures even if you have to stay and fight.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 02:29 PM

With the help of Quason and the numbers he provided (I am not sure if they are 100% accurate... but they should be a pretty close approximation, more than good enough for the purposes of this discussion) I am pretty confidant in asserting that stalkers defensive capacity falls smack in the middle between scrappers and blasters.

This is taking into account both hit points and their defensive sets... but completely ignoring offensive capacity and buffs/debuffs their foes might encounter.

Needless to say, I am not so sure the conclusions you are drawing by saying that their defenses are only euivalant to 1 luck is really very valid... the reason is that while a blaster can achieve 25% def by popping 1 luck... a fully slotted sr stalker or scrapper will achieve 50% def with that single inspiration. So how are the defenses so useless?

Taking all factors into account SR stalkers and scrappers function as if they ALWAYS have 1 luck running... plus they have elude and status protection to make their sets even more defensive than a squishy AT running that same single inspiration.

Personally I do not feel the SR set is as useless as you seem to be claiming... they recieve roughly 50% damage mitigation against EVERYTHING... compare that to an Invuln scrapper who maxes out at around 50% to s/l and 30% to everything else except psi... and suddenly SR looks like under average conditions they are in a better defensive position.

So far as the numbers I ran... Stalkers should see around 66% the survival of a comparably slotted Scrapper.

Blasters by comparison should see around 66% the survival of a Stalker who opts to slot out their defenses... should they choose to ignore their defenses, that is another story.

Dysmal

12-12-2005, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given that Stalkers have equivalent defensives to Scrappers (or in the case of some sets like Ninjutsu, trade defensive capability for utility and control) I really dont buy the line of thinking that a visible Stalker is somehow extremely vulnerable. A visible Stalker is not necessarily at the mecy of the person who can see them.

[/ QUOTE ]
most of the stalkers secondary are def roughly the equivalent of one luck and that's pushing it now take a guess how many builds have (build up, aim, targeting drone, rage or just plain accuracy inpiration) and how long it would take them to drop a stalker. Ninjitsu gets some cool toys but those toys are get me the hell out of here or set a trap tricks not stay and fight for long toys. I don't have a regen stalker so I am not sure how sturdy one is, scrappers on the other hand have two resistance sets one of which has major utility (dark armor). Also consider that stalkers have less HP than scrappers and an higher BI then even blasters, that also lowers their chance of survival you may not be buying it but it's the reality of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what if they have less HP than Scrappers? Thats the trade off for Hide, Placate and controlled crits. For reference Stalker HP is equal to Controller/Defender HP from what I've heard. Regen is generally going to be less effective for a Stalker admitedly, since Regen functions off your total health. The less your HP total, the less health you're going to regen. This is probably why Regen stalkers seem to be quite rare.

Defense can be overcome with Accuracy inspirations, this is true, but you can also up your defense with Lucks. And remember that in PvP zones base to hit is only 50%. If a Stalker has around 25% defense in PvE, then that defense is effectively being doubled in a PvP zone.

I dont understand what you're saying about BI. Are you saying Stalkers have higher BI than Blasters?

If you really think you're squishy, I'd suggest that you try playing something with equivalent HP (say an Empath or Trick Arrow defender) but no defense, mez protection or stealth and see the difference.

Starsman

12-12-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you miss this sentence in my post? I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me rephrace (and i tought i did that before posting it):

Or simply accept that you cant posibly survive against every single AT.

[ QUOTE ]
I think things like "info" that allow a Stalker to size you up in detail before striking should be disabled in PVP zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of agree. Sort off because I think the only thing you need to disable is the power information tab, bio, badges and pvp ratings should still be visible to anyone.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand what you're saying about BI. Are you saying Stalkers have higher BI than Blasters

[/ QUOTE ]
Scrappers have an Higher BI than blasters. [ QUOTE ]
So what if they have less HP than Scrappers? Thats the trade off for Hide, Placate and controlled crit

[/ QUOTE ]
less HP = less chance of survival you were arguing about their defense remember. [ QUOTE ]

If you really think you're squishy, I'd suggest that you try playing something with equivalent HP (say an Empath or Trick Arrow defender) but no defense, mez protection or stealth and see the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
would a storm controller and a dark defender do, TA is recognized as the worst set I don't know what point you are trying to make and for the record you and I both know that emp is mostly a team build. Of course slap on a controller and you wouldn't know it. I just want to clarify I am refering to the any top tier powers since most of the PVP is done in siren's call this would be pre top tier powers. [ QUOTE ]
Defense can be overcome with Accuracy inspirations, this is true, but you can also up your defense with Lucks. And remember that in PvP zones base to hit is only 50%. If a Stalker has around 25% defense in PvE, then that defense is effectively being doubled in a PvP zone.

[/ QUOTE ]
yet when you take into account that most Heroes will have slotted for accuracy and Aim and build up can give you great accuracy it does not seem much now does it? As for inspirations take a guess which side has easier access to them and usually more influence and slots to carry and purchase them.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Blasters by comparison should see around 66% the survival of a Stalker who opts to slot out their defenses... should they choose to ignore their defenses, that is another story.

[/ QUOTE ]
blasters do more damage and 33% of their damage is unresistable, not to mention the fact that with EN and dev secondary they can toggle drop and tp foe into trip mines for an easy win. Also except for AR most blaster damage is non s/L which is another advantage while only EM has energy damage. I was not counting top tier powers but if you want to include them why not take into account blasters APP FON alone can cap resistance for a blaster. [ QUOTE ]
Taking all factors into account SR stalkers and scrappers function as if they ALWAYS have 1 luck running... plus they have elude and status protection to make their sets even more defensive than a squishy AT running that same single inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was not accounting for their top tier powers but if you want to include them you may as well include everyone else in the process. And there are other sets too you know like ninjitsu and EA. Stalkers get their top tier at level 38 so do you wish to take into account all the power and abilities other AT get by then as well?

Pilcrow

12-12-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did you miss this sentence in my post? I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me rephrace (and i tought i did that before posting it):

Or simply accept that you cant posibly survive against every single AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's something I'm willing to accept. I would like to actually participate in the fight where they vanquish me, however. :)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think things like "info" that allow a Stalker to size you up in detail before striking should be disabled in PVP zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of agree. Sort off because I think the only thing you need to disable is the power information tab, bio, badges and pvp ratings should still be visible to anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I go so far as to take issue with seeing HP and END reticles on PVP foes, but I can see that perspective. I worry about things like badges, which can be pretty indicative of some of the hero's powers are. But, hey, not my game.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 02:52 PM

DarkPhoenix, if you would be kind enough to provide me with some base numbers for the stalker defensive sets I would be happy to run a comparison between them and stalkers under various accuracy slotting regimes... if you do not have those numbers that is okay too, I will just have to wait for them to come in from another source.

So far as buildup and aim go... those enhance damage as well, so resistance sets are equally effected... build-up adds 100% damage for scrappers and blasters and 80% damage for stalkers (I believe these numbers to be correct, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong)... these are only transitory buffs, and as such should not be considered the normal encounter scenario... especially when a stalker has the option to wait and see when their target uses these powers and then to attack while they are still recharging (effectively taking them out of the equation entirely).

Without considering ACC enhancers, SR stalkers have 66% the suvivability of an SR scrapper plus better defenses versus aoe's.

Their defenses are not quite as pitiful as you might be convinced... they are actually fairly decent.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 02:57 PM

Download the latest version of hero planner no need to beat around the bushes build a stalker to level 30 and see for yourself. http://joechott.com/coh [ QUOTE ]
So far as buildup and aim go... those enhance damage as well, so resistance sets are equally effected... build-up adds 100% damage for scrappers and blasters and 80% damage for stalkers

[/ QUOTE ]
not in reality because if you are relying on defense you either dodge or die with resistance if you have some type of resistance to the damage you get some time to react (respites, lucks, +HP powers). Once your defense is trumped you have nothing to protect you and less breathing room to react.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
blasters do more damage and 33% of their damage is unresistable

[/ QUOTE ]

At present stalker AS damage is 86% unresistable... that's right 86%... because 6/7th's of it is critical damage.

As such I do not see blaster unresistable damage as being important to consider here.... especially considering that if you added up all the damage doled out by a stalker in a given period of time... I bet far more than 30% of it is unresistable.

I also was not counting their top tier powers by the way... that 66% defensive capacity of a scrapper is derived completely without considering elude.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 03:05 PM

The only defensive scrapper set is SR, 3 out of 4 stalker secondaries are def. How can you possibly make such a broad statement.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 03:14 PM

I am making that statement because I am working under the assumption that all scrapper sets are "roughly" equivalant in terms of survivability. Will one set fair better against certain enemies?... Sure... but in general they all fair about the same.

I do understand that you believe that all defensive based sets are pretty much the bottom of the barrel.... I personally do not think that is the case.

Defensive sets are probabalistic... resistance sets are reliable... but that does not necessarily make 1 better than the other.

Based upon that kind of thinking stalkers have much better damage as their criticals are reliable and scrapper criticals are a roll of the dice.

Mathematically it all evens out over time.

Defensive sets may enter one battle and not even get scratched... they may enter a similiar battle 2 days later and get creamed because they get hit by 5 lucky shots in a row... that is the nature of the beast, but it does not make it bad.

Thank you for the link by the way, I will try and work out some numbers later.

Cyclone_Jack

12-12-2005, 03:23 PM

I was finally one-shotted! Ok, technically it was still two shots, but the second shot would have one-shotted me if the first did not go off. Granted, this was solo against a L52 Psychic Babbage, but still, his Psychic Wail did 1650 + 850 + 850. Preceded by Psychic Scream that did around 550, that's three times my total max HP. Needless to say, I was a really, really dead Blaster. I did scratch his armor good, though. He'll remember me.

Why did I attempt to solo a L52 Psychic Babbage? Well...you never know until you try... ;) :D

As for PvP, my Blaster has yet to be one-shotted, though I did tear up an unsuspecting Mastermind in seconds. He/she was my bounty, and I did ambush them. It wasn't really fun, and I'm sure they weren't happy. But I was using the Bounty to buy L2 Insps...so I could go back to Mr. Babbage.... I'm sure if they knew the reasoning, they'd approve.

Cyclone Jack

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am making that statement because I am working under the assumption that all scrapper sets are "roughly" equivalant in terms of survivability

[/ QUOTE ]
If it were so then defensive sets would not be viewed as problematic would they. You also have to take into account the difference in HP and utility certain sets such as (DA) stun and fear and multiple defense, (inv)def, resistance, health regen. [ QUOTE ]

Based upon that kind of thinking stalkers have much better damage as their criticals are reliable and scrapper criticals are a roll of the dice.

Mathematically it all evens out over time.

[/ QUOTE ]
are you assuming that they both have the same base damage. Stalkers BI is .9 while scrappers is 1.125, scrappers damage rivals brutes and blasters and their defense is enough to stand up to my DM and SS brute even with a full fury bar. I have lost many matches to scrappers and thats with me fully slotted with SO's, while they have np taking down scrappers, that's not taking into account primaries such as spine that cancel out AS or secondaries with auras that do the same.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If it were so then defensive sets would not be viewed as problematic would they.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because a number of people have convinced themselves that something might be the case does not necessarily make it so.

In this scenario the numbers really are the definitive factor here.

You do not have to believe me, but on my invuln scrapper it is often his defense that saves me and not his resistance.

Allow me to set up a hypothetical scenario for you here and I believe it will illustrate why people "perceive" defensive sets to be worse off than resistance sets.

Let us assume there exists an AT that has 1000 HP... let us assume that the player in question then has the choice to select 90% resistance to all damage and zero defense... or 90% defense to all damage and zero resistance.

From a mathematical perspective their survival rates over time are identicle.... there is no difference whatsoever

Let us now assume they are put up against a foe who attacks for 500 damage per hit.

We know for a FACT in this situation that the resistance based player will die in 20 hits... no doubt about it.

So far as the defense based player in concerned we do not know how many hits it will take to defeat them... it could be 2... or it could be 200.... but on average it will be around 20.

The reason that people "perceive" defensive sets to be lacking is because it is very easy to ignore the 200 misses... and instead the mind emphasizes the few times that the computer got lucky and floored them in 2 hits... a 1 out of 100 chance.

When you play for over a year and are attacked hundreds of thousands of times that 1 out of a 100 chance crops up more than once and leaves the player with this impression of "wow... this sucks... I die so easily".

But that impression is a false impression... the same way we might be inclined to call someone a poor driver for getting into 2 accidents within the course of 2 weeks... it is easy to do when we ignore the fact that they have been driving for 20 years and never got into an accident even once before that.

The human mind is designed to emphasize tragedy and failure... that is the reason why defensive sets are thought of by some as lacking... with resistance sets you know what you are in for, so the consistance makes it "feel" more effective when in actuality it is not.

Dinah

12-12-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know this is pages and pages ago, but I just had an idea that I had to say.
1. I love the above idea. It's too long though - suppression kicks in at 3 seconds, and it's still possible to get out of a bad situation. A 2 second phase shift would probably still yield the desired result, without completly ruining the power.
2. This can apply to "one-shotting" as well. If a single person does X amount (90%+?) of damage within X amount (1 second) of time, they cannot cast *any* powers for 2 seconds (this wouldn't apply to already running toggles). It won't stop team ganking, but I don't think anything will.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You do not have to believe me, but on my invuln scrapper it is often his defense that saves me and not his resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]
you have defense, resistance and dull pain (plus HP plus health regen) you are not only relying on one mitigating factor there is no way you can say one for sure that defense is saving you. [ QUOTE ]
Let us assume there exists an AT that has 1000 HP... let us assume that the player in question then has the choice to select 90% resistance to all damage and zero defense... or 90% defense to all damage and zero resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]
you do know that the translation from def and resistance is not as clear cut as that which is the case states made when comparing lucks to sturdies. Because mobs and we have a default accuracy and accuracy boosting powers. The odds are dramatically worse when the other guy has AOE's.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you have defense, resistance and dull pain you are not only relying on one mitigating factor there is no way you can say one for sure is saving you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely I can... when dull pain has already been used and I am down to 10% of my HP... it is not getting hit that is keeping me alive... not anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
you do know that the translation from def and resistance is not as clear cut as that which is the case states made when comparing lucks to sturdies.

[/ QUOTE ]

When were we comparing lucks to sturdies?

You seem to desire to alter the topic as my only contention here is that defensive sets are not a piss poor as you seem to be suggesting.

Defensive sets are not as reliable as resistance sets... but they have their own inherent bonuses that resistance sets do not recieve.

For example... when contending against a foe who tosses mez effects at you... even if both a resistance set and a defensive set have the same mez protection... the defensive set is much better off.

Why is that might you ask?... Simple... because a mez effect that does not land cannot stack with other mez effects to stun you... a resistance based build does not dodge those mez effects so they stack up more easily than on a defensive build.

The situation is not "clear cut"... in some ways resistance has benefits and in some ways defense has benefits... but to just assert that resistance is better than defense is incorrect.

You seem to be very well versed in the methods to circumvent defense... such as acc and to-hit bonuses... in a similiar manner, damage boosts effect resistance builds (and if you argue that the damage boosts also affect defensive builds I will just have to remind you that acc boosts also affect resistance builds)... if you would like me to go into the mathematics of it I would be happy to, but I really do not think it is necessary to make this post any lengthier than it already is.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely I can... when dull pain has already been used and I am down to 10% of my HP... it is not getting hit that is keeping me alive... not anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dull pain regenerates you health so it's not gone per say and resistance is making you take less damage. unless you just play with just invincibility on you cannot say that the 90% that was taken away from your HP was mitigated with defense. [ QUOTE ]
if you would like me to go into the mathematics of it I would be happy to, but I really do not think it is necessary to make this post any lengthier than it already is.

[/ QUOTE ]
your first example used 100% defense versus 100% resistance but thats simply not the case when you take into account powers that trump defense all together and the fact that it's not 25% defense versus 25% resistance for scrappers. But you would also have to take into account utilities, difference in HP and several other variables such as stun, fear effects that cannot be quantified. Simple fact it is much easier to trump defense then resistance you can debate that all you want, but there are simply more then enough tools in either secondaries and primaries of AT to do the job. If the devs did not feel that way then they would not have changed PVP to help the defensive sets. I have yet to have any problems taking down an ice tank or SR scrapper though so you figure it out.

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dull pain regenerates you health so it's not gone per say and resistance is making you take less damage. unless you just play with just invincibility on you cannot say that the 90% that was taken away from your HP was mitigated with defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to paint a scenario I just played out and you will see what I mean about defense making ALL the difference.

Dull pain was not used in this case so that it's sudden HP boost does not come into the equation.

I approached a lvl 52 Boss... He smacked me and began to reduce my HP at a phenominal rate... Then I double stacked Divine Avalanch for an additional 48% defense... Suddenly I could stand there all day and not worry about death.

As such it is fair to conclude that without the extra defense I was going to be dead in about 4 seconds... but with the extra defense I was suddenly able to stay alive even with 15% of my health and not worry about death at all.

Sure the boss could have smacked me and killed me with the 5% to hit floor (which I am not even convinced I hit... it is more likely I got him down to 25%).

The problem with your argument is that you were under the assumption that my defense at the beginning of the fight was the same as at the end... when I was getting trounced I had minimal defense... when the fight became sustainable I had substantial defense.

As such it is VERY reasonable to conclude that the defense is what made the difference... as I proceeded to chew some greens to up my health and then shut off unyielding and temp invulnerability and was still doing just fine. (i.e. resistance did not cut it... but defense did the job)

You can be convinced that defense is terrible... that has not been my experience... in fact I have found defense to be a GREAT boon to my survivability in situations where resistance just does not cut it.

Your experience might be different of course... by my own experiences and the numbers do not agree with you.

[ QUOTE ]
Simple fact it is much easier to trump defense then resistance you can debate that all you want, but there are simply more then enough tools in either secondaries and primaries of AT to do the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not need to debate anything here... you have stated something as "fact" that is really just your "opinion".

As such the only rebuttal I need to offer is that I do not agree with you and that I have a different opinion on the matter.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I approached a lvl 52 Boss... He smacked me and began to reduce my HP at a phenominal rate... Then I double stacked Divine Avalanch for an additional 48% defense... Suddenly I could stand there all day and not worry about death.

[/ QUOTE ]
48% but wait what about invincibility you weren't surviving on that alone were you?

Ok let me give you a scenario a scrapper in a siren's call has 50% defense (that's assuming he is slotted defensively and has SO's). Tanker build up gives what 40% acc buff so the stalker now has 10% chance of not getting hit suddenly the odds don't look so favorable now do they. And that's not taking into account builds that have double build ups (fiery embrace + build up or Aim+build up, targeting drone) which trumps your entire secondary all together. Some of these powers last 10 seconds take a guess how long it will take for one player to execute a full attack chain then you understand the stalkers leannig towards running rather than fighting.

DarkPhoenix

12-12-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As such the only rebuttal I need to offer is that I do not agree with you and that I have a different opinion on the matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
is that your way of saying it's best to agree to disagree :)

Hunter2357

12-12-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is that your way of saying it's best to agree to disagree :)

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what I am saying lol

I have tried to sway your opinion with a few anecdotes from my experience, as well as a few numbers I crunched.

You have tried to sway my opinion with your own experiences and some areas where you feel defensive sets have an obvious disadvantage.

And as we can both see we have not managed to adjust eachothers view points much... there is nothing wrong with that of course... I respect the fact that you have a strong opinion on this issue, and if I cannot convince you otherwise it means my arguments are not solid enough.

I do thank you though for the link to the hero build information... I will try and gather some numbers for a more complete analysis between stalker and scrapper regen and SR sets... when I have the time I will post my findings on a separate thread and I hope you will take a look to tell me what you think :)... while we may disagree, I do value your opinion.

kleen

12-13-2005, 07:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with this statement, if you had said, "no attack in the PVP game". I believe PvP should be balanced by itself, without regard to PvE. That would be nice. Save the nerf bat for the PvP zones. When you enter, prepare for the beating.

Quason

12-13-2005, 07:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have tried to sway your opinion with a few anecdotes from my experience, as well as a few numbers I crunched.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was never a winnable debate from either side, and I think we all knew that. For any anecdote and number crunch one side can come up with, the other side can come with just as many.

Basically, you're never going to convince someone that's been killed so many times by a particular archetype that it's balanced, and you're never going to convince someone that plays the archetype and dies fairly frequently that they need to be nerfed. There's no solution to this that's going to make everyone happy. One way or the other, someone is going to be pissed.

Mighty

12-14-2005, 09:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know this is pages and pages ago, but I just had an idea that I had to say.
1. I love the above idea. It's too long though - suppression kicks in at 3 seconds, and it's still possible to get out of a bad situation. A 2 second phase shift would probably still yield the desired result, without completly ruining the power.
2. This can apply to "one-shotting" as well. If a single person does X amount (90%+?) of damage within X amount (1 second) of time, they cannot cast *any* powers for 2 seconds (this wouldn't apply to already running toggles). It won't stop team ganking, but I don't think anything will.

[/ QUOTE ]

This won't stop AS. It will merely make a stalker time their blow better. Remember, the stalker has to initiate the attack and not move but the target can go wherever they want and they will still take the damage after the animation is over.

The situation would be: Stalker tp's foe, foe is intangible. Foe realizes what's going on. Stalker pauses the strike until the foe begins to leave then hits AS. Foe runs and becomes tangible. Animation on AS ends, foe dies.

Mighty

12-14-2005, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People really need to knock this crap off. Play the game or don't quit calling for a nerf of this or that, be it Stalker, Blasters etc. I have played a stalker in Pvp, as well as a scrapper, a brute and a defender and Blaster. Stalkers AS is not over powered. Some times you die quickly, some times you don't. As a stalker I've had a hard time getting kills and some times they were so easy it was anti-climatic.

It all comes down to what tatics you use. If you stand still in a PvP zone and don't have any type of defense,(perception..etc..you are putting yourself at risk). Hell, I saw a tanker low on HP SJ out of a big fight a couple hundred yards and try to rest behind a wall. I followed him and AS'd him. He yelled that I was cheap..and so forth; now was it the UBERness of AS that killed him or his poor tactics? Quit complaining and just play. If you get beaten by a tactic, learn from it, build to defend against it. But for F's sakes quit being children and crying about who has what toys.

[/ QUOTE ]

There be truth here. Leave it to an Irishman to set the record straight! :D

Time for a pubcrawl!

TheArtifex

12-14-2005, 04:09 PM

For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.

Mighty

12-15-2005, 05:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brother (or sister), I feel your pain.

My main, whom I love with all my heart, is a lvl 50 Dark/Invuln scrapper (Mr. Mighty). Instead of doing what I built him for (being the tank when the tank wasn't there) he's now a furious storm of mouseclicks to keep alive. Two self heals and both are necessary at regular intervals, I actually make one of them part of my attack chain to keep him standing.

Endurance issues, though not as bad thanks to Novella; still forced into a nerfed Stamina; and a "set-defining" power that I have to jump into a crowd who's damage I can't handle in order to make effective...

Like I said, I feel your pain.

The first day I was able to play PvP I took him into Siren's Call. He put on all his toggles and commenced to helping out at a hot spot. As he stood there, waiting at the end of the battle at full health with UY, TI, Invinc, and DP all up... BAM! 1-shot down (courtesy of Stalker Quason... hey, if I'm gonna be killed, might as well be from a pro!).

I'd rather see Mr. Mighty given back his namesake rather than nerfing another AT. It feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in by the schoolyard bully and instead of standing up to him we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on... and he called your dad a sissy, too!"

Mieux

12-15-2005, 06:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on

[/ QUOTE ] FYI...that is the schoolyard bully.

DarkPhoenix

12-15-2005, 06:24 AM

PaiOeShi

12-15-2005, 06:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brother (or sister), I feel your pain.

My main, whom I love with all my heart, is a lvl 50 Dark/Invuln scrapper (Mr. Mighty). Instead of doing what I built him for (being the tank when the tank wasn't there) he's now a furious storm of mouseclicks to keep alive. Two self heals and both are necessary at regular intervals, I actually make one of them part of my attack chain to keep him standing.

Endurance issues, though not as bad thanks to Novella; still forced into a nerfed Stamina; and a "set-defining" power that I have to jump into a crowd who's damage I can't handle in order to make effective...

Like I said, I feel your pain.

The first day I was able to play PvP I took him into Siren's Call. He put on all his toggles and commenced to helping out at a hot spot. As he stood there, waiting at the end of the battle at full health with UY, TI, Invinc, and DP all up... BAM! 1-shot down (courtesy of Stalker Quason... hey, if I'm gonna be killed, might as well be from a pro!).

I'd rather see Mr. Mighty given back his namesake rather than nerfing another AT. It feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in by the schoolyard bully and instead of standing up to him we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on... and he called your dad a sissy, too!"

[/ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to beleive you where one shotted unless your resistances where slotted VERY badly and dull pain wasnt up. My brute of the same powersets doesnt get anywhere NEAR one shotted when AS'ed in warburg.

Quason

12-15-2005, 06:34 AM

He's right, I one-shotted him, for two reasons. First, critical hits (including assassin strike) are unresisted in PvP. In other words, I do full damage to anyone I hit. Second, I'd used a handful of reds first because there were other players, or mobs, or something around him (it's been a while back, I forget) and I needed to get the quick kill and get out.

So... yeah.

Mieux

12-15-2005, 06:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My brute of the same powersets doesnt get anywhere NEAR one shotted when AS'ed in warburg.

[/ QUOTE ] I believe the math shows that any Brute ont on DP can be two-shotted by EM/* stalkers...without inspirations. So Quason could two-shot you such that you won't have time to react. And since he can just wait until he sees your DP wear off by watching your HP meter...it's pretty much guaranteed if you stop moving.

Stand still in Warburg after challenging any EM to do it without insp. They'll come a callin'

Quason

12-15-2005, 06:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the math shows that any Brute ont on DP can be two-shotted by EM/* stalkers...without inspirations. So Quason could two-shot you such that you won't have time to react. And since he can just wait until he sees your DP wear off by watching your HP meter...it's pretty much guaranteed if you stop moving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can confirm that. Did it last night.

Hell_O_Ween

12-15-2005, 05:02 PM

I maybe wrong, but it seems like the complaint of one shotting, be it a stalker, blaster, a team ect is more based on the build of a character (power choices mostly the power pool options) or simple tactics used.

Lets look at the tactics first. Well if someone uses the terrain and team mates to advantage then I say bravo (with the exception of guard tower). That is one side being smarter than the other. We should not be hindered for our intelligence.

But the truth is, it isn't tactics (at least not in the traditional sense) that seems to cause the most complaints. It is the way a character is built and slotted. The use of Tp foe, stealth, tactics, jump ect coupled with the slotting of enhancements for accuraccy and damage or debuff make a character formidable. That is the purpose of slotting.

I have never looked at the numbers but just going from what I have seen, no AT... not even stalkers... can one shot another AT...even defenders...unless they are slotted/built to do so. Sure this is obvious. The thing to remember is that it can only happen in PvP zones.

I think alot of the complaints about this can be adressed if people consider PvP and PvE seperate games.

Those that tend to get the one shot kills have built their character for PvP. What this means is they spend a majority of their time in PvP and have designed their character for just that. That is both a merit and a flaw. Builds for PvP do not do well in PvE. Yes they can switch between the two but the truth is if you build for one aspect over the other you will be at an advantage in one and disadvantaged in another.

Worse still is the character that tried to balance for they will not be good at either.

Yes arguments can be made that stalkers have an advantage over defenders or a tank can beat a blaster or even vice versa. But in knowing that, when you create a character you know its strengths and weaknessess. A defender doesn't try to tank and a corruptor dosn't try to be a scrapper.

To compare a defender against a stalker seems a little silly to me. Most arguments seem to be in reguards to these so lets just look at them a bit.

A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.

A stalker has low health, moderate defence and both the capacity for incredible damage but mostly does average maybe slightly above. Soloing PvP zones for them is ok but not great cause if they are discovered they cannot stand up to the assault of most other AT's. Yes they do have the ability to run around hidden, but by the time anyone goes into a PvP zone they do too so that isnt a very good argument to me.

If you compare a defender vs a stalker they just dont add up nor should they. They both have very diffrent rolls to fill in the game. One could make the same argument about damage potential with a brute and his fury or a blaster with his build up. Yes I know the damage output is vastly diffrent but still it is a valid point.

A stalker could also complain that they get killed way to easy for a melee AT after they use AS so all in all it balances out to me.

Again, looking at PvP and PvE as two seperate games will help some understand that most (not all) of those performing the one shot kills are built to do just that and as a result it is all they do. And yes there are exceptions so there is no need to explain your ubercool stalker who can do everything. We are all smart enough to realize that nothing is absolute.

Stalkers, and to a limited extent, the MM's have been taking the brunt for the complaint on one shotting because their inheirent makeup lends itself to that. But what about controllers/dominators with chain holds.

Personally what I have found is that reguardless of AT's, whoever starts the fight tends to win because they have prepared themselves for it with insp, power usaged ect, while the defender is at a disadvantage because they cannot spare the time or are unable to use their own insp or powers.

I would like to repeat something now and it will probably sound hostile but that is not my intent at all. You know the advantages and disadvantages of an AT when creating them. You know that defenders cannot stand up against scrappers (usually, again please no stories of your amazing defender) so when you go into a PvP zone you know what your in for. I am not one to say don't go into the PvP zones if you don't like it because that is a pretty empty argument. I am just saying be prepared based on your AT.

If your intent is to rule or even compete well in PvP certain AT's will do better than others. Imagine an electric blaster slotted to extremes for end reduction, couple that with the electric cage and boom, few others will stand against them as long as they initiate the attack. Just so I am clear (without it being as hostile as it sounds) if you find your defender/controller/whatever lacking in PvP and are unwilling to accept it, then play a diffrent AT in the PvP zones.

One thing that may help ease some of the tension regarding oneshotting...at least in sirens call. Make the bountys AT dependant. Meaning, a defender only gets bountys on defenders, stalkers on stalkers ect. Not a great fix but its the only one I have because I seldom think about PvP. It just does not hold my interest. I don't do it and doubt I ever will. I just figured these points might help.

None of this post is a solution it is just another point, discussion...even arguing is a good thing, it breeds change and change begets growth.

(incidently you may have noticed that I repeat myself, clarify and put in disclaimers...this is due to the staggeringly high amount of people who will misquote, focus on single points instead of entire discussion or just simple be argumentative without anything to back it up. And yes this was meant to be hostile.)

DarkPhoenix

12-16-2005, 05:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.

Starsman

12-16-2005, 06:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his point is simply that squishies WHERE designed to be extrmely vulnerable, not that they are entirely helpless, but that if as a defender some one gets the upper hand, it may be over before you get any chance to fight back. If i get with my SS tank close enough to AS and hit, i found they wont be flying away from me no more and i'll be able to stay close enough to kill them with extreme ease, but as you noted, i must get up close first and that may be tricky. Stalkers will almost always be able to sneak up on a defender (or blaster or controller) and that is what i think the poster meant.

DarkPhoenix

12-16-2005, 06:14 AM

Happy Bday Starsman very subtle avatar :D

Starsman

12-16-2005, 06:17 AM

Thanks, was bored yesternight due to bad internet connection that prevented me from playing :p

Mighty

12-16-2005, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He's right, I one-shotted him, for two reasons. First, critical hits (including assassin strike) are unresisted in PvP. In other words, I do full damage to anyone I hit. Second, I'd used a handful of reds first because there were other players, or mobs, or something around him (it's been a while back, I forget) and I needed to get the quick kill and get out.

So... yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for confirming my pwnage... :o I must go reconstruct my manhood now... :(

Mighty

12-16-2005, 09:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I maybe wrong, but it seems like the complaint of one shotting, be it a stalker, blaster, a team ect is more based on the build of a character (power choices mostly the power pool options) or simple tactics used.

<Snip a whole lot of calmly thought out positions.>

(incidently you may have noticed that I repeat myself, clarify and put in disclaimers...this is due to the staggeringly high amount of people who will misquote, focus on single points instead of entire discussion or just simple be argumentative without anything to back it up. And yes this was meant to be hostile.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I really like that post. A tip of Mr. Mighty's fedora to you, sir.

I believe you're right and appreciate the fact that it was very non-confrontational and not once called anyone a "whiner." I'd give you stars but someone did away with them.

Hell_O_Ween

12-16-2005, 09:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see it the same. Yes, I do believe a defender has the potential to be a juggernaught but to do so they need to throw a bunch of de-buffs at a foe or suck power from them. Then they have to throw attacks. Whereas most other AT's can just wade in and start throwing attacks (controllers/defenders being the exception but thier focus is holds/mezzes so its a trade off).

What I mean is that a defender needs to use extra powers which can miss as opposed to the brute who only needs to hit. I probably should not have said 'regardless of build or tactics' that implies they have no chance to overcome their difficulties.
I am gonna quote myslef here,

[ QUOTE ]
And yes there are exceptions so there is no need to explain your ubercool stalker who can do everything. We are all smart enough to realize that nothing is absolute.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had hoped people would read this and understand that I do know there are exceptions to everything. Any AT can be made formidable in PvP, its just that some are easier to do so with.

starsman says:
[ QUOTE ]
I think his point is simply that squishies WHERE designed to be extrmely vulnerable, not that they are entirely helpless, but that if as a defender some one gets the upper hand, it may be over before you get any chance to fight back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think any AT is at a disadvantage if they are not the attacker but yes, I feel the defender AT is one of the worst, controllers/dominatos having the hardest time of all if they find themselves the one attacked.

[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers will almost always be able to sneak up on a defender (or blaster or controller) and that is what i think the poster meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do have a great chance to sneak yes, but anyone has the potential to be sneaky. It is just that stalkers are built to be sneaky from the get go.

In all that I have said I hope one thing stands out. Every AT is diffrent...with diffrent merits and flaws. What one AT has for an advantage another may not. That is the exact reason for having the diffrent AT's. One will not be balance against another and I hope they never do.

One last thing, DarkPhoenix, do you have any thoughts on the body of my post or just that small small part of it?

DarkPhoenix

12-16-2005, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What I mean is that a defender needs to use extra powers which can miss as opposed to the brute who only needs to hit. I probably should not have said 'regardless of build or tactics' that implies they have no chance to overcome their difficulties.

[/ QUOTE ]
RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I have yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.

Hell_O_Ween

12-16-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I hate yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I am glad for you. In your view a defender is better than a brute. Yay. I don't agree thetthose autohit powers are not as godly as you do. I don't agree that a defender can always take down a brute but thats not here or there. I do see your point. A defender can fight well too. That is just proving my point. One AT has advantages over another. If it makes you feel better change the part where I use defenders and stalkers to brutes and defenders.

Please, this is one point in a much larger post, do you have anything to add to the body of the message.

DarkPhoenix

12-16-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In all that I have said I hope one thing stands out. Every AT is diffrent...with diffrent merits and flaws. What one AT has for an advantage another may not. That is the exact reason for having the diffrent AT's. One will not be balance against another and I hope they never do.

One last thing, DarkPhoenix, do you have any thoughts on the body of my post or just that small small part of it?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the overall sentiment of your post that every AT has their weakness and that when they team the fact that they complement each other (or at least your hope) makes up for whatever imbalance they have 1 vs 1. I just have a very hard time with your example since I don't think it's true.

Antic

12-16-2005, 01:17 PM

Generally speaking, there shoudl be no one shotting in the PvP game of any type by any AT.

I'm not complainihg about stalkers here or about aim/buildup blasters. I'm speaking in the general sense.

Every PvP encounter should contain the opportunity for fun. This is where the fun and excitement comes in. Both parties in a PvP encounter shoudl have an opportunity to apply skill and style to the combat. One-shotting removes this.

Instead of having both parties having a potential for a fun and satisfying encounter (whether they win or lose) you now have certain ATs whose primary design is to have fun for themselves at the cost of removing any joy or excitement from the encounter for the other player.

In a better designed system, we can still have exciting PvP encounters that yield higher satisfaction and enjoyment for both parties in the encounter instead of a lopsided event that carries no opportunity for skill or excitement for the one-shotee.

Pilcrow

12-16-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think alot of the complaints about this can be adressed if people consider PvP and PvE seperate games.

Those that tend to get the one shot kills have built their character for PvP. What this means is they spend a majority of their time in PvP and have designed their character for just that. That is both a merit and a flaw. Builds for PvP do not do well in PvE. Yes they can switch between the two but the truth is if you build for one aspect over the other you will be at an advantage in one and disadvantaged in another.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think many of the opponents of "cheap" kills (one-shots, TP into tripmines, etc.) are unaware of this truth, or think that a PVE build Defender ought to be able to beat a PVP built Stalker. I think they are well aware that there are significant differences between the PVP and the PVE games and a paper-scissors-rock-lizard-spock relationship between ATs.

The central issue is that PVP combat should ADD to the fun of the game for both participants, and that a combat that is essentially a quick, unstoppable loss for one opponent is not particularly fun for that one opponent.

It may be LOADs of fun for the other opponent, as they work very hard and strategically to set up their trap, find their prey, and spring the trap. But for the victim of said trap, the combat boils down to:

"What the-?"
"Oh NO!"
"Faceplanted again. [censored]!"

That just isn't fun.

Now, I know that this kind of thing is a risk you take in a PVP zone, but accepting a risk and enjoying it are two different things. The more often this particular form of PVP combat occurs, the less appealing the zone becomes and the more interesting the zone content has to be to overcome that risk, eventually, it deflates the fun for both sides - since hunters don't have a lot of fun without prey.

I think it's not an unreasonable expectation on the part of PCs to want to be "dangerous" prey. Prey that takes more than one hit to kill. Prey that has a chance to fight back. Prey that might be able to escape. Prey that *might* pull from behind to turn the tables. Prey that can, at the very least, wound you on the way to the grave.

If you can one-shot them, they aren't dangerous. No matter what capabilities they have, they will not get to use them if they are one-shotted.

And if they have capabilities that are already dangerous to you active (PBAEs, Sufficient Defenses), then you simply will move to another target. (So, even when they "win" they don't get to have fun.)

There's a lot of room between being dangerous and having the upper hand. People who build for PVP should clearly have the upper hand, but they should still find their opponents dangerous (as defined above).

Note: The above reflects my personal philosophical position on this issue and may or may not express the attitudes of others who are against one-shotting, the devs, or the owners of this forum.

Hell_O_Ween

12-16-2005, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think many of the opponents of "cheap" kills (one-shots, TP into tripmines, etc.) are unaware of this truth, or think that a PVE build Defender ought to be able to beat a PVP built Stalker. I think they are well aware that there are significant differences between the PVP and the PVE games and a paper-scissors-rock-lizard-spock relationship between ATs.

The central issue is that PVP combat should ADD to the fun of the game for both participants, and that a combat that is essentially a quick, unstoppable loss for one opponent is not particularly fun for that one opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do see your point. One shots are frustrating if not downright unnaceptable. But I have yet to see a battle between two individual characters last more than 20 seconds. It probably happens but I think that oneshotting aside the majority of PvP battles are over very quick.

There are so many ways to boost yourself before a battle that unless you start it you will be disadvantaged. Between click powers, inspirations, slotting and power pools the option is there.

Again, I do inderstand how much one shotting can anger someone. The current makeup of PvP is the main reason for this. You are allowed to initiate attacks at any time.

The only two solutions I can see both have flaws.
One is to only allow PvP when both sides agree to it as in the arena...but that didn't work because the arena was seldom used.
The second is to put a cap on damage from a single attack. But this means that alot of things become weak if not useless. With a lower damage cap brutes will lose the extra damage from fury, scrappers will lose extra damage from criticals, stalkers will lose the extra damage from stealth attacks, dominators will lose extra damage from domination, blasters will lose estra damage from buildup and defience, corruptors will lose extra damage from scourge, defenders will lose extra damage from de-buffing and controllers will lose extra damage from (cant remember their inheirent power). Not only those powers will be affected but certain big damage powers will see that the extra damage enhancements go to waste. And what do you do about mm's with the pets...each attack dosnt hit the max but the lot will definately. Or those with skill at key binding who are able to fire off the 7 attacks they have without a pause in between.

If you want to play PvP but do not like to get oneshotted then try the arena. Otherwise I find it hard to agree that PvP is broken. You know what is there...you can follow certain tactics to limit oneshotting.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I know that this kind of thing is a risk you take in a PVP zone, but accepting a risk and enjoying it are two different things. The more often this particular form of PVP combat occurs, the less appealing the zone becomes and the more interesting the zone content has to be to overcome that risk, eventually, it deflates the fun for both sides - since hunters don't have a lot of fun without prey.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now this makes alot of sense. I agree with most of this in that people will lose interest in PvP.
This sort of game is not the best for PvP. Shooting games, fighting games...those work for pvp because the characters are completly balanced...here they are not. Its not a flaw with the game its just the way it is.
As for the PvP zones being empty...I doubt it. There will always be those who want to PvP and they will go there.

One thing to consider as well, CoV is still pretty new. Alot of new players have come in and one of the reason for that is the PvP aspect. Even those not interested in PvP will at least try it out. So the PvP zones are pretty full most times. It is inevitable that a good portion of the new players will move on to a new game or only play every so often. When that happens the PvP zones will clear out alot. At that time the oneshotting will be less obvious as you will be able to spend much more time in the zone before being beat. Which I think might be the largest reason for complaint you get killed quick in pvp right now. It happens often cause the oneshotters have soooooo many targets to choose from.

Circuit_Boy

12-16-2005, 11:04 PM

Just to clear two things up:

First:

[ QUOTE ]
Again, looking at PvP and PvE as two seperate games will help some understand that most (not all) of those performing the one shot kills are built to do just that and as a result it is all they do.

[/ QUOTE ]
In Siren's Call, there's one characteristic most of those performing one-shot kills have in common: They're Stalkers. It is POSSIBLE for a Blaster to one-shot Masterminds with a Sniper power and a LOT of Red Inspirations. Stalkers, on the other hand, can just about one-shot anyone.

Second:

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine an electric blaster slotted to extremes for end reduction, couple that with the electric cage and boom, few others will stand against them as long as they initiate the attack.

[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that? Second, even if it did not, the most a single Electric power could Drain in one shot is Power Sink at 75, due to Enhancement Diversification. The "basic" powers (Lightning Bolt, Charged Bolts, Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Thunder Strike, Ball Lightning, etc) Drain 5 Endurance. Slotted heavily for Endurance Drain, they'd drain 10. Whee! I know. Terrifying.

Also, there is no power named "electric cage". Maybe you mean Tesla Cage, which is a basic Hold power. Virtually every Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, Tanker, and many others are utterly immune to Holds.

I am the Electric Blaster you're talking about. Due to the 75% pre-nerf of Endurance Drain for PvP, most of my powers are utterly useless.

Hell_O_Ween

12-17-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I was not aware that end drain took a hit in PvP.

But as you cannot discuss things without being condesending and arrogant you are not worth my time.

Hell_O_Ween

12-17-2005, 05:43 AM

Hell_O_Ween

12-17-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I was not aware of it. But as you are incapable of discussing things without being condesending and arrogant you are not worth the time.

Pilcrow

12-17-2005, 07:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only two solutions I can see both have flaws.
One is to only allow PvP when both sides agree to it as in the arena...but that didn't work because the arena was seldom used.
The second is to put a cap on damage from a single attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wanted to note that there are a lot of suggestions out there, all with their own flaws mind you, but more than the two you are considering:

<ul type="square"> Pippy suggests that all PCs con Red to one another (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4276059&#post4276059), thereby decreasing their accuracy to about the same level as the +25% DEF manages today and also decreasing their DMG/DEBUFF/CONTROL to ~65% of it's current strength in PVP
Arcanaville suggests that getting the full damage from AS only hit some of the time (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4254897#post4254897), thereby forcing Stalkers to plan for the post AS game, but allowing the occasional one-shot
cohRock suggests something he calls the 7/70 Warranty (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4281494#post4281494) which would insure you 7 seconds of combat in a manner pretty fair to the person dealing damage
Hunter has a thread exploring a DOT solution (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Ideas&Number=4250621&page= 1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1), which would convert some of the damage you receive to DOT sp you have time to react.
There are a number of ideas in my Ending PVP 1 Shot Kills thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4253636#Post4253636) (although my OP was pretty flawed) including the one I have settled on as my personal favorite...
My notion to just leave one-shotting alone, but turn all awakens/rezzes into combat rezzes in PVP (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4311563#post4311563), making retribution a real factor for the one-shotter and giving the one-shotted a way to protect their loot (has been veryu controversial)
[/list]

I think the solution you like best depends on what you think the real problem is (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=4279063#post4279063), but there are more sophisticated solutions than the two you map out.

Pilcrow

12-17-2005, 08:57 AM

Post deleted by Alexa

Circuit_Boy

12-17-2005, 01:57 PM

Deamongelous:

Apparently, as you cannot discuss things without engaging in personal attacks, you are not worth my time, either.

Blueeyed

12-17-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I have yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Freezing Rain can and does miss in PvP. Every area of effect power with a damage portion now has a chance to miss in PvP.

And anchors? Do you know exactly how problematic those are? 3 of them have cast times greater than four seconds - that's long enough for a half-decent energy melee brute to kill you.

So, yes, I've seen a lot of brutes killing rad/dark/storm Defenders. I've seen a lot anything kill defenders.

Hell_O_Ween

12-17-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the solution you like best depends on what you think the real problem is, but there are more sophisticated solutions than the two you map out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, I had missed that I didn't include the word 'simple'. It should have read :

The only two simple solutions I can see both have flaws.

I did most of the solutions you offer in your post. I suppose I should have further clarified that while I think many of these solutions are great in theory(i especially like the conning red one), I think that first there are ways around each and I am not a programer, but they must be monumental tasks to undertake for the devs. Yes they are there to provide us with the best game they can, but Iwould rather see more zones, more powers,AT's...hell I would rather see more costumes than a better PvP enviroment.

The fact that one AT has an advantage in PvP does not seem a large concern to me. Much if not all of the advantages one AT or build has can be countered by another AT or build. If PvP is something you are interested in then part of the challenge is to find a way to beat the oneshotters consistantly. If all you wish to do is have a pick up match... maybe give the arena a try...it is much busier these days as people are starting to realize that the PvP enviroment there is much more friendly.

Jesterman

12-17-2005, 11:29 PM

I didn't even think one-shotting was possible in COV.

I tried it using several builds back in beta and could never cause enough damage to kill even defenders/controllers in a single shot. That's using 3-4 green SO slots in damage as well as buildup and several reds. Using buildup + 3-4 slotted AS would usually give take away 2/3's of a defender's health.

I don't pay much attention to these boards anymore and I haven't had the time I wish I had to play my stalker outside of beta, but since when (and under what circumstances) is it even possible to one-shot anything as a stalker?

_gyyv_

12-18-2005, 11:42 AM

Just my $.02, I don't think oneshotting should end. To me PVP should have that "danger." I guess it depends on what reputation/bounty means, and to that end are the "stalkers" raking it in?
I have to admit Stalkers (and that is the only way I have been one shotted) do cause me to quit playing after 10 min, of just dying 3 or 4 times in a row. I love PVP, when I can play more than 2 or 3 minutes...but it can be unfun. If there was some way to reduce the frequency to all AT's, yet keep it in place so that you have to be aware of the possibility, I think that would enhance that game overall.

Keldros

12-24-2005, 08:59 PM

My suggestion is that people grow up and stop acting like little babies because they get beat in PvP. If your entire world crumbles down around you every time you get beat in a game, maybe you need to stop playing them and go get some therapy. So you get one-shotted in pvp? So what? Big deal. What's it cost you but a little bit of time to get back to the fight, assuming no one is there to rezz you? Do you lose xp? No. Do you get debt? No. All you suffer is a small amount of time out of the fight. IT'S A GAME. Grow the hell up.

Pilcrow

12-25-2005, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is that people grow up and stop acting like little babies because they get beat in PvP. If your entire world crumbles down around you every time you get beat in a game, maybe you need to stop playing them and go get some therapy. So you get one-shotted in pvp? So what? Big deal. What's it cost you but a little bit of time to get back to the fight, assuming no one is there to rezz you? Do you lose xp? No. Do you get debt? No. All you suffer is a small amount of time out of the fight. IT'S A GAME. Grow the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. That's much more constructive than the ideas I posted links to.

I don't know if you noticed, but IT'S ALL A GAME. So, why should you be getting so upset that the devs are considering changing things so one-shots cannot occur?

Starfox_NA

12-25-2005, 03:19 AM

Who cares aboput one-shotting in PvP? I want ot to end in PvE!

(And obviously only against players, one-shotting mobs is fine, when possible)

Micro_Huge

12-25-2005, 04:10 AM

Getting an insta kill should just root you in place for about 10 seconds or something (There needs to be more risk involved). I have no problem with people doing instakills in pvp, it's the fact they can ESCAPE so easily afterword that bothers the majority I believe. You shouldn't be able to re-hide or go back into any type of invisibility or phasing after a kill for something like 30 seconds in my opinion.

Machine_Fist

12-25-2005, 08:11 AM

Stalkers can definitely one shot a squishy Hero. But let's not call it insta-kill. While the kill may take one AS blow, the process of setting it up takes far longer, and may involve extreme danger and frustration on the part of the stalker. Finally, any team of two smart Heroes can eat any stalker for lunch.

TheUnleashed1

12-25-2005, 08:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers can definitely one shot a squishy Hero. But let's not call it insta-kill. While the kill may take one AS blow, the process of setting it up takes far longer, and may involve extreme danger and frustration on the part of the stalker. Finally, any team of two smart Heroes can eat any stalker for lunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's the thing. "Smart" may a standard that is too high. It seems that some folks just want to mash buttons and look at the pretty pictures on the screen.

aqshy2004

12-25-2005, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is that people grow up and stop acting like little babies because they get beat in PvP. If your entire world crumbles down around you every time you get beat in a game, maybe you need to stop playing them and go get some therapy. So you get one-shotted in pvp? So what? Big deal. What's it cost you but a little bit of time to get back to the fight, assuming no one is there to rezz you? Do you lose xp? No. Do you get debt? No. All you suffer is a small amount of time out of the fight. IT'S A GAME. Grow the hell up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. That's much more constructive than the ideas I posted links to.

I don't know if you noticed, but IT'S ALL A GAME. So, why should you be getting so upset that the devs are considering changing things so one-shots cannot occur?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he's a L33B! teenager?

Stupid_Fanboy

12-25-2005, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't pay much attention to these boards anymore and I haven't had the time I wish I had to play my stalker outside of beta, but since when (and under what circumstances) is it even possible to one-shot anything as a stalker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assassin's strike when slotted with SOs, combined with Build Up and about 4 reds will one shot anything under a Blaster and maybe even a Blaster.

Catwhoorg

12-25-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Assassin's strike when slotted with SOs, combined with Build Up and about 4 reds

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to empahsise that point.
AS doesnt do it
AS+ build up doesnt do it
AS+ Build up + a significant portion of your inspriations tray is required

Cthulhufan

12-25-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assassin's strike when slotted with SOs, combined with Build Up and about 4 reds

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to empahsise that point.
AS doesnt do it
AS+ build up doesnt do it
AS+ Build up + a significant portion of your inspriations tray is required

[/ QUOTE ]
Even then you aren't even guaranteed a kill against a blaster...

Hide + Build Up + Assassin Strike + Placate + 4 Rage Inspirations + Getaway Power does not = Being 1 Shotted. It's being 9 Shotted and nearly any AT can kill another with 9 Powers.

Micro_Huge

12-25-2005, 11:48 PM

I don't get the extreme danger in popping 4 reds and queing 2 buttons for a kill then superjumping or teleporting out of danger into a hidden state or phase shifting out of danger to rehide.

Lets take blasters as an example, comparable ranged damage with a possiblity to pretty much instakill but they are alot less likely to escape and also open to retaliation during the que-up getting snipe and the second third attacks in too finish. On the other hand you have the stalker build which can que everything beforehand while hidden for a 1 shot on almost anything but a tank then the ability to escape easily and be hidden within seconds. The only risk for a stalker is infact a hold or multiple ranged med/high dmg attacks qued before they can get out of line of sight or rehidden which is damn near impossible on a teleporter or jumper in particular.

This is a dead horse though and the devs have a plan I'm sure in mind, just hope they don't halve damage in pvp zones or something absurd.

Venekor

12-26-2005, 06:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares aboput one-shotting in PvP? I want ot to end in PvE!

(And obviously only against players, one-shotting mobs is fine, when possible)

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want it to end in PvE?
Anyway I think one shotting is ok. But they need to make moves like AS have a consequence to it. Say .5seconnds of disorrient? Costs 50end? Animation time of 10seconds? Something more negative.

Circuit_Boy

01-03-2006, 01:56 PM

It's been several weeks, and the Developers have not proposed a single idea, much less implemented one, to end one-shotting.

Who wants to lay bets on when--or even if--they will ever do anything about one-shotting in PvP?

Black_Scourge

01-04-2006, 12:48 PM

You know there is something wrong when the average stalker can hit the pvp rep cap in less than a week of play. Thats a BAD curve. That fact alone screams to me that they need fixing.

sanchoxoi

01-04-2006, 01:53 PM

you all need to play a stalker in pvp before you say anything.

stalkers sacrifice almost everything for AS and CS. if a scrapper gets a hold of us, we are dead 90% of the time.... does that mean scrappers should get a nerf?

you are asking to nerf the only... ONLY thing that makes a stalker any good. we can hardly scrap, we die WAY to fast, most people can allreaddy SEE through our hide(pop a yellow and you can see us), in water you can see us coming after you, auras most of the time NEGATE AS, a target has to be standing still for a while for us to get an AS on em. some blasters can almost 1 hit us for crying out loud.

Black_Scourge

01-04-2006, 02:15 PM

Then maybe YOU arent too good at pvp. I run a very active pvp VG with alot of stalkers, its a rare occassion when they die. Pull your bs story with someone else bud. Oh and they all have a 400 rep.

Circuit_Boy

01-04-2006, 05:42 PM

sanchoxoi:

I can't let these untruths go by uncontested.

First, "stalkers sacrifice almost everytyhing for AS and CS". Really? What do they sacrifice? Let's explore that a little.

* They do 90% of Blaster Damage / 80% of Scrapper Damage. They do more damage than any other AT besides Blasters and Scrappers with their attacks.

* They share the 500% Damage Cap with Scrappers and Blasters, meaning their damage maxes out higher than any other AT besides Blasters and Scrappers; it maxes out at the same percentage as Blasters and Scrappers.

* Stalkers' Primaries are primarily drawn from Scrappers' Primaries. Their powers have the same BIs as their Scrapper counterparts.

* Stalkers have access to Status Effect powers out of the Energy Melee set. (I bring this up to cut off any argument about how Controllers, Blasters, Dominators, Defenders, and other ATs have Status Effect powers.)

* Stalkers have access to the Spines Primary set, which allows them ranged attacks. (I bring this up only to cut off any arguments about how Blasters have range while Stalkers don't.)

So, contrary to the Stalker PR Machine, they're not actually hurting on the damage front, even without AS.

* Stalkers' Secondaries are drawn primarily from Scrappers' Secondaries, and operate at exactly the same rates.

* Stalkers have access to +Defense powers from their Secondary sets. Blasters do not.

* Stalkers have access to Status Protection powers from their Secondary sets. Blasters do not.

What exactly have Stalkers "sacrificed" here? From my vantage point, it looks like they haven't sacrificed a thing.

* They have +Defense powers.
* They have Status Protection.
* They have the third-highest damage ratio of any AT in the game.
* They have the highest damage cap of any AT in the game.

Where's the sacrifice?

Second, it takes more than one yellow Inspiration to see through Hide + Stealth. You're grossly exaggerating.

Third, most auras that require a to-hit check actually miss most of the time due to the +Defense on Hide and other +Defense vs. AOEs (which Stalkers have access to).

Fourth, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence on the boards (and from my own personal experience) that a moving target can be hit with Assassin's Strike.

Sorry, but Stalkers are broken. They should never have made it to Live in this state.

Iceciro

01-04-2006, 06:59 PM

Stalkers have absolutly crappy health, absolutly crappy non-hidden damage, absolutly crappy defenses, absolutly crappy variety, and you want to take away the ability to one shot them?
Here's an idea. Find a defender with Tactics. Stick with him. Stalkers will die.
Just because they choose and kill a target doesn't mean they're overpowered... it means you need to find a team.
PVP Zones are not the arena. Find a team, and you will die less.

Circuit_Boy

01-04-2006, 07:17 PM

LordAxion:

Did you even read anything I said?

* Stalkers have the same number of HPs as Controllers, Defenders, and Dominators. Unlike these ATs, though, they have Defense powers and Status Protection.

* Stalkers do the third-highest amount of damage in the game, only slightly behind Blasters and Scrappers.

* Stalkers have Defenses. Period. They have +Defense powers, they have Status Protection, and they have Stealth + Hide.

LordAxion, I've been on teams with Defenders with Tactics. I've been on lots of other teams that have torn Stalkers apart. You have no idea who I am, so don't try to make claims about how I must be "lame" in PvP. That's just a sad, and untrue, red herring argument as well as an argument ad hominem.

Stalkers are broken, probably in PvE as well as PvP.

Sex_Bomb_V

01-04-2006, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(Referring to setting up a Caltrop and Trip Mine field:)

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the blaster who does that (and The_Josh does it a lot) is at risk the whole time when setting this up. It's not something you can throw together in a couple seconds. I know that he gets interrupted quite often when trying. Pulling such a maneuver off should be rewarded with a kill.

[/ QUOTE ]
And taking the time to set up an AS shouldn't be?

[ QUOTE ]
If defenders, blasters, corruptors, controllers and dominators can survive and do well without stealth, then why the heck can't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Does The_Josh use his Cloaking Device while setting up his trap? Then he's not without stealth, is he?

All of those archetypes have ranged attacks. Stalkers do not. Melee range multiplies risks significantly.

Finally, everyone has access to the Concealment pool. Stealth is an option for everyone in the game. Stalkers are only unique in that ALL of them have stealth, and they can stack it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difference between hero/villain stealth, invis, greater invis, hide

HERO/VILLIAN POOL POWER STEALTH = little glowy effect(actually makes you easier to see)
INVIS=you become see thru, but are still noticable
SUPERIOR INVIS=another see thru one, but you can attacK thru this one
HIDE=nothing, and I mean nothing shows up. there is no cue, no subtle movement, no bending of the light. there is no visable component to hide, other than the removal of the toon using it, from every other players screens. you can still attack, but hide supresses(big whoop) Placate instantly "hides" you from the toon you use it on, but only that toon. again, you just disapear from that toon screens, completely.

the MYTH that stalkers have no defenses is just that, a myth. And yes, if you click AS while I am in range, even if I am 50 miles away by the time it goes off, even if I get Recalled to the entrance to the zone before it goes off, it still hits. The only way to stop a AS once it is activated, is to interupt it. period.

SuperDave7

01-04-2006, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to stop a AS once it is activated, is to interupt it. period.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . . or break los.

period.

Madman_NA

01-11-2006, 05:14 PM

I'm a stalker on virtue,and i don't think stalkers NEED to be as defensless without one hitting as most of them play.As a spines/regen stalker i'm constantly hit by AS,but instead of doing nothing after it hits i just activate dull pain and it's as if nothing happened.

What DOES annoy me is that every other stalker seems to use the hit and run method that everyone is complaining about.For example a stalker will AS me,i'll use dull pain and hit him back, and before you know it i've all but killed him and he runs again.After he gets some life, he comes back and it's just one big running and chasing match.

Like i said in another thread:Regen stalkers should get back quick recovery.The 3 powers you need to sacrifice in order to get stamina forces you to rely on only a couple of attacks,which can make AS a must.

The defense and perception some of the other sets get makes up for the lack of resilience,because i speak from personal experience when i say that they are extremely difficult to hit or one shot.

Stalkers are hardly defenseless,they CAN take on scrappers and blasters without AS,and the stalkers that rely solely on one or two shotting should stop playing that way before we all suffer.

Madman_NA

01-11-2006, 05:42 PM

"Just wanted to laugh at that. Stalker really was "Easy Mode" for me. That's why I abandoned the AT. It just made every victory feel...cheap."

I really don't know if my other post got posted so i'll just say it's exactly what makes stalkers look bad.The guys who CAN'T win without AS are probably the guys who can't win without herding.

I play a stalker and i'm soooo far from being as defenseless as every stalker claims to be from what i've seen.Stop playing in such a cowardly fashion and not everyone will eventually have to suffer for your inability to fight properly.

Madman_NA

01-11-2006, 06:08 PM

"We both know that's BS. If that were true I wouldn't have to take TP Foe to make my main somewhat useful in PvP (which I refuse to do). It's a nice thought, but you and I both know it's just lip service. "

No,it's a FACT that if a hero wants to see a stalker they would have to get tactics or some other +perception power.Unless ofcourse you should come across myself playing the way i do now, and i won't run away once you see me.

This kind of thing REALLY makes stalkers look bad.I was playing my scrapper in a pvp area with the IR goggles(because i can't afford to sacrifice powers to get tactics at lvl 34) and i spent close to 2 hours just flying around because the stalkers there would do nothing but hide and wait to use assassin strike.

That's so very embarrassing.Even after they had hit with it because i stopped for a second,they went right back to running away after i didn't die.

Does this make the game fun?If you have tons of fun running around,hiding,and hitting people when they aren't looking i hope you like being mugged in real life.

PsychicKitty

01-12-2006, 05:12 AM

I just wanted to add something for everyone to know...so you can go out and see for your self.

The hide ability makes it so you cant target a stalker as everyone knows....what people have not noticed is that for some reason if you can target the person...then your area of effect powers wont hit them either.

In addition had this nice little thing happen a few times too..... i used hurricane and freezing rain which i was inthe middle of....so far i have yet to see a stalker unable to assasin strike me with those powers on.

And...get this.....if the stalker does use a placte power...the target/toggle powers like from radiation or the snow storm from the storm power sets get turned off....cant target the stalker after they playcate so you cant effect them...placate also lets a stalker stop sliping on ice slicks or being effected by tar pits or even getting hit by rain...all they need to do is placte the person the person who did it to them.

Now aside the the stealth bypassing area of effects and such things.

Perception is rather broken.
Now i used the warshade +perception power, Ir Goggles and had someone putting alot of clear minds on me.....and i can say......the Wrashade +perception and clear mind powers are either broken or so weak they do little.

When i used tactics plus Ir Goggles though i could see most stalkers unless they used invisibility or stealth in addition to the super speed and hide they use in the PVP areas.

ANywise it was very entertaining trying different characters in the PVP zone....oh yes...forgot to tell people this too.....some of the scrapper and stalker build ups.....they dont add any +perception...they say they do...but they dont...i assume they are broken...like theone from martial arts for example....it +perception is non-existent from what i could see.

ANywise just wanted to tell people.....and figured now everyone will know so maybe someone can figure a way to beat the problems.

Oh yeah...i find the scariest thing to be...to have high perception and seeing the stalkers.....one stalker then placates you.....but you can still see him becasue ofhte monstrous perception.....you just cant target them.....and with the inability to target your foe...the game engine design then allows the stalker to bypass what ever you hope to defend yourself with

Fire_Foxx

01-12-2006, 05:42 AM

Scrappers have higher base damage then blasters, better defenses then stalkers and the ability to critical hit. As you said [ QUOTE ]
Where's the sacrifice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet I don't see you making threads on how "broken" they are in PVP and PVE. Math is a great thing but in the wrong hands it's also a neat magician trick people use to make others agree or prove a point when one never existed in the first place. The only thing I will agree on is that one shotting has got to go and the devs are already addressing that but the rest of your argument leaves much to be desired

Madman_NA

01-12-2006, 05:55 AM

One solution is to give everyone who has a chance of being one or 2 shotted plus perception powers and a likelihood to dodge AS....

Or to increase blaster controller or defender health.Whatever takes the toggles off in pvp is just stupid though,if that's the so called "stealth nerf"

HacknSlash

01-12-2006, 07:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
* They do 90% of Blaster Damage / 80% of Scrapper Damage. They do more damage than any other AT besides Blasters and Scrappers with their attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought they did the same damage as tanks, and less than brutes?

[ QUOTE ]
* Stalkers' Primaries are primarily drawn from Scrappers' Primaries. Their powers have the same BIs as their Scrapper counterparts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except their damage is 20% less, right?
That's like saying corruptors have the same BI's as blasters.

[... and don't scrappers have increase odds of crits or something?]

[ QUOTE ]
* Stalkers' Secondaries are drawn primarily from Scrappers' Secondaries, and operate at exactly the same rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's deceptive, since the stalkers are operating with less hit points. The odds of two hits penetrating defenses are much better than the odds of three hits penetrating defenses.

Also, the regeneration set is percentage-based off of hitpoints, is it not? That makes the entire set proportionately less effective, even if the "rates" are the same.

Pilcrow

01-12-2006, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even think one-shotting was possible in COV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you might find this post (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=stalker&Number=4504914&pag e=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) interesting. They even put it on "film".

Controllers, Defenders, Masterminds and Stalkers all have low enough HP to be one-shotted by a Stalker's AS when the Stalker is damage capped. Some can be one-shotted with just AS + BU.

Teklord

01-12-2006, 07:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even think one-shotting was possible in COV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you might find this post (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=stalker&Number=4504914&pag e=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) interesting. They even put it on "film".

Controllers, Defenders, Masterminds and Stalkers all have low enough HP to be one-shotted by a Stalker's AS when the Stalker is damage capped. Some can be one-shotted with just AS + BU.

[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers, Defenders and MMs can be one-shotted with AS+BU.

Madman_NA

01-12-2006, 06:55 PM

A solution to the problem could be:Upping the lvl that pvp zones play at.

That way everyone can afford to have the +perception powers...

Bitgolem

01-13-2006, 06:28 AM

Personally, I think if a Mob is not purple to you, he shouldn't be able to oneshot you ever. 90% maybe... But not enough that you can't pick yourself up and run for your life.

Defenestrator

01-13-2006, 07:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the extreme danger in popping 4 reds and queing 2 buttons for a kill then superjumping or teleporting out of danger into a hidden state or phase shifting out of danger to rehide.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the target in question has the Leadership Pool active they'll have you dead before you can line up the AS. And many defenders and controllers take the Leadership powers.

Taking out that lone, oblivious hero is really super easy. You're correct on that. Taking out a smart hero who stays with his or her group is very difficult and extremely frustrating at times.

Cully

02-20-2006, 05:17 AM

If this has already been mentioned feel free to ignore me, but i didn't have the patience to read all 66 pages of posts.

Not every toon has the ability to block an AS like repellers/caners do.

I have a Dark Melee/Regen scrapper lvl 35. How does he stop stalkers? And don't even dare you mention taking tactics. I'm still sore over the whole perma-hasten nerf about people being "unfairly forced" to pick hasten for their builds just to be viable character options. I will NOT be "unfairly forced" to pick tactics just to combat the sneakiest of the sneaky backstabbin bastids known as stalkers *Stalkers, in all honestly, i salute you, you're a great concept, and i admire you a lot, i just hate being assassinated hehe* The good part about my build is i've yet to be one hit killed. I'm "just" tough enough to get my tuckus outta harms way popping IH and DP on the way. when half my life or more disappears, i'm outtie.

You force me to pick something so i can see stalkers coming, and i'm [censored] from now until the game goes defunct about permahasten getting nerfed.

I think the IR goggles are great. Also, I run around in the water. Stalkers can do a lot of sneaky things, but they can't change the laws of physics, and a physical body moving through water at any speed above negligible produces a wake. I see a wake coming at me at full speed, or suddenly appearing next to me, i don't ask questions, i pop the two aoe's i have, and if i don't unmask them, i'm gone. That's my solution. Run. If i can see them tho, AND target them, i fight, but i'm not waiting for 3 feet of steel to be piercing my spine to start crying foul.

What about in the middle of a fight? This is why i think stalkers at THE number one BEST support AT out there. Brutes, MM's, whateva are having a knockdown dragout brawl in the middle of a zone? They should be at risk to getting a blade in the back at the most inopportune moment. It's war. War is hell. People die. So will you. Nuff said.

DO NOT tell me my "option" is to be forced to pick a power i have no room for to stand a chance. All you ppl that got hasten nerfed boil my blood. Devs, mods, included. How anyone could read the description of that power and NOT pick it, defies every fiber of logic and reason in my being. That being said, i know it's a dead horse, don't think i'm starting a crusade, but i resent the very notion of the only viable option being FORCED to pick a power i DIDN'T need to solve a problem. That was your argument, it worked for you, we'll dust it off and re-use it and none shall cry foul.

Have a peachy day Lieutenant!