Aggro cap. Herding is forever dead.

[Norfed]

In testing I noticed(trying to see if I could still herd) that I can no longer aggro more than 17 mobs of any type or level. No matter what I do they will no more than 17 mobs will follow me. or attack me at any given time.

I can literally stand in the middle of a mob of 32 and beat on a guy with his back turned to me if 17 of his friends are already aggroed.

Each time you hit a mob over the limit of 17 he will turn toward you, attack you, then turn back and stare off into space.

Gues they REALLY Wanted to nerf herding hua?

It kinda stucks because pure-granite tankers can still stand up to 17 +3's. I guess they nerfed my ability to die....

[Norfed]

As an additional thought, this opens up numerous tactical options.

I could aggro 17 say..underlings. Then kill everything else in the mission one or two or however many at a time. With no threat of death ever as nothing else in the mission would ever attack me more than once per shot of mine.

For instance, with 17 underlings aggroed on me, I could use fireball exclusivly on every group in the game and they would never get more than 1 attack back. Thus effectivly makeing me immortal.

[Great_Scott]

Good plan, Norfed.

I'll mention this to my SG tonight. This could really help us finish some tough missions.

Thanks,
-> Scott.

[Norfed]

Further testing reveals that this 'aggro' cap/list is flexible. New aggros apprently replace old aggros on the list. So if I go to attack something new it will aggro on me, but I will lose aggro on something else, which will turn around and start off into space or attack someone else.

I Guess the new rule is "never EVER pull 2 groups at the same time" because the tanker literally CAN'T keep aggro on them.

[Great_Scott]

D'oh! Thanks for the temporary boost. I imagine that the number-crunchers will notice this sooner or later.

It's actually pretty bad...but compared to ED it won't make anyone's radar. I wonder what else is being stealth nerfed while our attention is elsewhere?

[P_Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I Guess the new rule is "never EVER pull 2 groups at the same time" because the tanker literally CAN'T keep aggro on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

weak

[Statesman_NA]

Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[HeroVorkk]

MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

I remember, months ago, when the I5 changes were first announced, various posters saying (demanding?) that herding can be "fixed" with an AI change.

Well, here it is. :eek:

[Great_Scott]

Thanks for the clairification, States! :)

This will mean I don't need Taunt any more, which is a net plus.

[GadgetDon]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, number way too small.

Between in-mission ambushes and groups that are STILL close together, fighting two groups at once is common and fighting three groups at once is hardly rare. I know you say it shouldn't happen, but it does, and I don't see anything in the patch notes for I6 about "spawn points on mission maps changed to avoid aggroing more than one group at once".

Even if you avoid that, there are situations like the mission to defeat Infernal and those zero-xp demons that come pouring out of the portal.

It needs to be doubled.

[Lohenien]

its not dead, we can still amass a herd of mobs if we try hard enough, keeping them all shooting us would be impossible, but im sure we can get them to come hang out .

[Optanite]

If you want to herd like before, you bring multiple tanks.. No wait.. Thats team work! Doh! They got us again!

[Psifire_]

[ QUOTE ]
Further testing reveals that this 'aggro' cap/list is flexible. New aggros apprently replace old aggros on the list. So if I go to attack something new it will aggro on me, but I will lose aggro on something else, which will turn around and start off into space or attack someone else.

I Guess the new rule is "never EVER pull 2 groups at the same time" because the tanker literally CAN'T keep aggro on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh great....that's wonderful news. Of course, it doesn't effect
powers.

Please give a warm round of applause for the "aggro stealth
nerf". :p

[Lady_Anna]

17 mobs max. Makes it interesting on a respec mission. Forcing u to team with more then one tank eh talk about force teaming

[Golden_Ace]

How about taking the fear out of burn then. As is it is useless.

[hepheastus]

Wow .... too bad you wing nuts didn't just do this in the first place instead of gutting the hell out of defensive sets to prevent herding.

no points.

[Screwloose]

Hmm, with the limitations Tankers already face on generating Aggro I would have thought that 17 was a little on the low side for a Hard Aggro List limit.

Surely being able to have an Aggro List of around 2 max sized spawns wouldn't be a game breaker given the small number limitations on the number of targets most *-Voking effects have?

The most immediate thing that springs to mind for me is that this is really going to cramp the style of people who find using the amount of discipline required to fight one spawn at a time unfun or just impossible.

regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."

[DarZindel]

Yes I was one of those annoying people wishing for an AI change...

[BrmstoneBalista]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]


cool, now raise the taunt hit cap to 17 so our teams dont have to worry. meaning, (when we taunt we can hit up to 17. at any given time)

[og_ninja]

No more herding?

I like I6 already.

[DA_Sapphon_40k]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case, "fix" the artificial AoE cap for Taunt (i.e. get rid of it).

[Dragon_Clan]

Did I enjoy herding?
Yes
Is it their choice to kill it?
Yes
The thing that angers me about this change is it's a stealth nerf. Why not just come clean and put it in the patch notes. You guys lose so much credibility everytime you "omit" things to let the player base find them and then call you on the carpet.
And my answer to the rebuttal that someone will no doubt post. No I don't buy it that it was accidently left off the notes. You'll never convince me that a detailed project like this cannot keep a master copy of changes, even a lousy project manager can keep track of the work that's been done. :mad:

[Mousewing]

Not in the notes? Sure wasn't...

However, I thought you guys "Stopped" herding in i5?...

Can you guys please appropriately un-nerf some of the 'solution to herding' from i5 now that you've added a hard cap...

Tanks look so ugly right now :(

[Fire_Bad]

wow you guys would never make it in cov

[newchemicals]

Well now you did it :) Now Statesman will have to fix that. I know, he will make GA a 180 second click with a 17 minute recharge but for those 3 minutes you probably won't die.

First rule about the GA club, don't talk about the GA club.

[Dragon_Clan]

[ QUOTE ]
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

I remember, months ago, when the I5 changes were first announced, various posters saying (demanding?) that herding can be "fixed" with an AI change.

Well, here it is. :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but all those posts said fix the AI instead of gutting our resistances. oops guess they missed that part :o

[PositronBot]

sweetness!!! glad i used my free respec already based on how i herd. Thanks for the heads up states... YOU ROCK!!!!..

[SQLQuery]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies. I know this is your baby and all but when changes like this are made and it is never mentioned publicly to be on the way, you just anger your player base.

Now I know that there are a number of players that might have been asking for this and that's fine, but where do you draw the line on what is suggestable for changes and what is not? I would assume this change is a desire by either yourself or some of the players to eliminate herding or powerleveling. My problem with that is where does it all end Jack? Is there a point where the game is what it is? Why is it so hard to realize that there is a limit to what the players will tolerate?

All I am asking is that if you are going to make a decision that changes how players understand the game, then man up and say it outwright. This publishing a new Issue and then when players mention changes, you posting confirmations just ticks people off. And no this isnt a "I'm quitting" post either. I really love this game, and dont want to see it follow the same path of a certain SOE product.

[Killcannon]

I had a long winded reply that some may have read.

Basically, I don't see how limiting to 17 is a logical thing.

I would expect the devs to have taken the number that was more rounded and arbitrary. 25 for example.

A team of 8 x 3<this is from the 3:1 thing) would = 24.

So a normal team of 8 should be fighting 24 mobs at a time.

For me, I LOVED getting on my Stone/STone, herding half a level while solo, and useing Mudpots as my main damage power. This was slow, but I allowed me to slowly work through the mobs with my single target attack. There are a lot of us tanks out there who don't PL. We may herd, but, without a power that can kill them REALLY fast, it's damned slow. But some of us LIKE the challenge of makeing a toon that can survive it. It makes me feel like a SUPER hero, and not just a vigilante.

[Matt_B]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies.

[/ QUOTE ]Com'on, don't BS. The only reason to herd more than 17 mobs is to farm XP. That's why people like taking on large herds of mobs. With the right builds and team, you can easily get beaucoup XP this way very quickly.

[NumberCruncher]

Thank god. I doubt my INV can survive anymore than that.

Now.

[Dragon_Clan]

I won't deny lots of people did this, that would be ignorant but you can't dump everyone in that group. I just loved feeling like an immovable mass. 15 baddies, hell make it 50. The problem with this or any game is you can never satisfy 100% of the people. I would have been happy dealing little to no damage to get my resistances back, others not.

[SQLQuery]

I have to agree with another poster, one of my first loves of CoH was that I could log in before work, run a quick mission and log out. I loved that I didn't have to "buff" before I could do anything like SWG was. Now if some of the changes I am seeing are to make defenders more wanted in groups, why didn't you just give the new powersets to them only? This is what I am trying to get across to you on the belief that you can "balance" the archetypes. Oh well, I guess this is another example of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Beef_Cake]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I love it, I pull 17 enemies on me, I go to the next few groups and pop the hell out of them and they do nothing in returns but stand there. Helluva AI fix ya got there States, what a joke...

you just gave people the way to earn xp without any mobs attacking back.

Hey maybe we can pull some swarms and beat the hell out of hami this way...lol

But what really cracks me up with this change is , it was a stealth nerf, never mentioned at all. And wasn't the limits to AOE's and PBaoe's to solve this problem to limit the amount of herding done to slow down the leveling of the Power Levelers?

Bad enough we have to deal with limits then this crap. Well some people like to gather an entire room up at once and blast them all for the FUN of it, now we can't do that.

Nevermind, I think Im wasting my breathe here anyway. I forgot its Statesman's game not ours!

[NC_Iceman]

I don't get the fuss. I used to play with a group that met on a regular basis: fire tanker, fire blaster, and me, illusion/emp controller. After a while me and the blaster became completely superfluous. As a matter of fact, try to be a controller was actually COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the fire tanker's herding.

I gave up xp powerleveling after grinding multiple 50s in DAoC. Games are meant to be played and experienced, not rushed through as fast as possible. Each combat can be a unique experience. Changes made so other players using their powers don't interfere with fire tankers is not a bad thing. Changes made so there is not just one tactic for every mission is not a bad thing. Bringing diversity to a game that already is in dire need of it, given that combat is all we do, is not a bad thing.

So rather than scream nerf all the time, embrace change for the new experiences it can bring.

[Tifer]

[ QUOTE ]
As an additional thought, this opens up numerous tactical options.

I could aggro 17 say..underlings. Then kill everything else in the mission one or two or however many at a time. With no threat of death ever as nothing else in the mission would ever attack me more than once per shot of mine.

For instance, with 17 underlings aggroed on me, I could use fireball exclusivly on every group in the game and they would never get more than 1 attack back. Thus effectivly makeing me immortal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me know when you successfully pull this off.

[SQLQuery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies.

[/ QUOTE ]Com'on, don't BS. The only reason to herd more than 17 mobs is to farm XP. That's why people like taking on large herds of mobs. With the right builds and team, you can easily get beaucoup XP this way very quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to disagree, but I made an Invulnerable / Super Strength Tanker to have fun and RP that guy as a buttkicker against all comers. And by the way, not everything is about XP, some people like this game because it is their fantasy to be a superhero.

[Anti_Product]

Um.. i was pulling around 20+ mobs at striga.. with my Ice tank on test recently. They were +1's too. Council+BP no like ice. Oh.. i uh survived too. Just my attack chain and Energy absorbtion. Must be the playstyle.. :shrug:

[spicy_hott]

Man All the little babies on here...How did My Herding affect your gaming experance? Was is the fact you did not know to herd and you became angry and bitter at those of us that could?

I have a total of about 15- 20 level 50's over MANY accounts and server of all shapes and sizes.

I for one have done every single mission, every single task force many many many many times.

I do like to try new builds and it MY damn choice to not do all the repetative missions again. Its My choice to herd, its my choice to powerlevel myself.

I have 3 computers here, all can run multi accounts at one time. Some times when I do run with other people three of those people on team are all ME and the others to not even know that. But who cares about that...I still play this game, I disklike WOW, EQ2, guild snore and most of the others. This game is where I have my fun.

We will find ways around Jack's vision and Jack's version of fun. Heck Ill even send him screen shots and FRAPS and show him, I don't care.

There is nothing to be done to get rid of power gamers, We can street kill and listen to "you are a kill stealer", we can find the missions that spawn the best, We can kill a group at time, we can kill 17 at a time. Hell I can use 2 tanks at one time put one one auto follow so what? Jack might them get rid of that. So be it.

To all fellow powergamers I Salute you!

To the Carebares and Jack I also Salute you but that is with one finger. :eek:

[Scarlett]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice stealth "fix" er nerf

[Xanatos]

"..." went the heartbeat of timmy tank.

[Mandu]

Statesman. Why you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking herd-nerfer.

[Axterix]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for off loading some of my abilites on others. Why get a tank, when a controller can lock down almost the same number with an AOE hold. 2 Controllers can make me useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the real beauty of it, in a bad situation...the controller, who really doesn't want aggro, will get it cleared! Talk about fire and forget.

While the tanker, who controls by getting aggro, well, can't get aggro.

And then consider the outdoor train missions like the fight between the CoT and their other dimension or Nem vs Nem Rex...many double sized groups coupled with multiple groups in close proximity. Those ar some of my favorite missions, except, well, no more of that.

Gotta love how they thought that one through.

[__Goldie__]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]
Great. Thanks for taking yet another suggestion from the tanker community that we were offering as a solution to stop mass herding INSTEAD of taking away our +DEF and +RES...not IN ADDITION to it!

This is the same crap you pulled with ED. "But as many pointed out on these boards, Enhancements were also a significant problem. In fact, many people suggested on the boards and in PM’s that we look into some form of diminishing return." Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?

Incidentally, since holding massive amounts of aggro and being nigh unkillable is such a freaking drag in your mind, last nights COV End of Beta event must have been absolute drudgery for you. You seemed to stand up WAY too long against the 50-100 villains beating on you. I'll bet you didn't have a LICK of fun while doing it. Did ya'? :p

[Thorny_Toad]

Awesome... two things though

1) Can you bump that cap slightly. I think 25 is a fair number, don't you.

2) Can we have back all our [censored] powers you NEUTERED along the way? You've made a hundred different changes to powers in order to slow, discourage or prevent this behaviour. Now that it has been accomplished, remove the wreckage from all your FAILED ATTEMPTS.

2a) Take the timer of off all the "herdable" missions. They aren't herdable anymore.


Honestly though, if all that was broken is restored, I'm 100% OK with this fix.


Thanks.

[Vexus]

Hmmm, so I guess the Invincibility "Posse" Strategy works great for this, just as long as you get aggro of less-threatening mobs (such as -1 minions) instead of more-threatening mobs (such as +4 bosses) and you carry your Posse around. Sooooooo, you want 14 (up to 17 max) aggro'd on ya, then you use Single-Target attacks to kill the Lts. and Bosses. Wow, as if Invuln/Energy Mele needed to be even MORE superior than all of the other Tankers. Energy Mele gets Detoggling, a very lightly resisted damage type, oh yeah, and the best raw single-target damage in the game. Sheesh.

Honestly, if you wanted to limit herding, you might want to consider re-designing Tankers into something more like Scrappers ... oh wait, I guess you did that with the Brutes. IMHO, Brutes work quite well, and are fun to play while being more aggro-oriented than a Scrapper and with less sudden damage.

Of course, a Tanker that cannot Tank is .... useless. Unless of course it's Energy Mele, in which case it's just a PvP monster. Balance? We're nowhere near that yet. You gave everyone and their brother huge Smashing/Lethal Resistance, so all those powersets that are purely Lethal (Axe, Katana, Broadsword, AR, etc.) or Smashing (Super Strength, Mace, etc.) are at a HUGE disadvantage. So as long as you're introducing this concept of Detoggling attacks ... IMHO, those are the ONLY sets that should be able to detoggle, not lightly resisted but very high single-target damage sets like Energy Mele.

Herding ... that's a PvE-only thing. The real balancing needs to be done in PvP where nobody is foolish enough to gather around your Invincibility Aura.

[ShadowsMyst]

So now that you've set a cap on how many we can keep aggro on, can we please have back the taunt we used to have pre I-5? We can't 'herd' anyhow, so I would at least like to be able to control the aggro I DO have. The current taunt really doesn't work well in large teams, particularly when you get a lot of AoE blasters and you are trying to keep the blasters alive, catching the aggro before they catch a dirt nap. Cuz the blasters are way better at grabbing aggro than a tank currently. I almost dread teaming with them now.

I also would consider giving us some of our resistance back in Inv, so that to survive we aren't FORCED to herd to survive. I'm not saying all, ( I agree Inv was kinda sick..) but some would be REALLY nice. Particularly in smashing/lethal, where we are supposed to shine, and toxic would be good. I dread anything with toxic damage. It kills me so fast I can't do anything. Also in light of ED, it would be nice to be able to put slots into things like Ed reduction instead of eeking out that last bit of damage resistance just so we can run with a full team and not be eternally in debt.

I never herded at all pre I5 because I didn't have to. Now I have (had?) to do it to be able to do my job in a team and survive.

I shouldn't require a dedicated empathy defender to be my babysitter to be a functional part of a team. They've got their hands full with the blasters.

Ironically, I find I do better solo now than with a team. I'm more inclined to do it, as I die less and the mobs and aggro are managable ( for most missions) or duo/trio at most. I simply am finding that larger groups = debt for all because I can't manage that kind of aggro anymore. If your intent was to make teaming more attractive, in my case at least, its had the opposite effect. I'm feeling more of a liablity than benefit to my teams as I can't do my job. Honestly? My Inv/Broadsword scrapper is a better tank in many cases. :P

[destinfaroda2k]

Man this is awesome, now I can solo anything by just getting 17 weakling guys to aggro me. Archvillains will be in awe at the amount of attackers going after me and just stand there as I take him down.

[Dr_Quasar]

You think that was the real Statesman? On all three servers?

[Norfed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an additional thought, this opens up numerous tactical options.

I could aggro 17 say..underlings. Then kill everything else in the mission one or two or however many at a time. With no threat of death ever as nothing else in the mission would ever attack me more than once per shot of mine.

For instance, with 17 underlings aggroed on me, I could use fireball exclusivly on every group in the game and they would never get more than 1 attack back. Thus effectivly makeing me immortal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me know when you successfully pull this off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just now:) Crey's folly:)

I teleported into 2 groups of monies, turned on my aggro aura, then poped a group of ritiki with a fireball. All way way lower than me of course, still it proves a point. The ones I poped turned toward me, shot at me once, then my aggro aura ticked on teh monkies around me and the people I had just fireballed fell compleatly off my aggro list and turned away and ignored me.

[converted_clock]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry...but [censored]?

AI change to fix herding: don't have them all stack on top of each other...i.e. fix clipping. Not this half [censored] cop out that's that's...I'm very angry, let me compose myself...

Ok, let me try this again...

I posted a link to this thread on champion forums in order to help educate people about this. Honestly, with all the changes to powers and the ED thing that just hit, I was a bit annoyed, but I was going to be a good sport about it and try it out. But this...this...this is that one additional punch below the belt after you think its all done.

I'm sorry, but I honestly enjoyed herding. And no, I don't mean herding to PL ppl, I mean as in efficiently aggroing mobs to make a kill all mission go faster. Once I aggro'd and grouped the mobs all together, my job was to keep aggro while my team dealt with killing, buffing, and controlling the mob.

Honestly, there's nothing we can say to change your mind. And sure, this doesn't fall under tweaking the powers, so this major nerf to hero effectiveness is something else you're getting away with based on semantics.

I kept on saying that surely this change is the last one, the game should be balanced now and we shouldn't have to worry about anything else.

And, without fail, you keep managing to introduce a new change even worse (for my fun at least) than the one before. It's just blow after blow below the belt.

Both of my housemates canceled their subscriptions this week. I'm going to sleep on it, check out the new content in CoV (since I do like content and I'm stuck with my preorder), and move on since I DO NOT trust you at all. I've no clue what's next for you to [censored] with. Make it so that any hero can not possibly handle more than 3 minions, 1 minion and a lt, or 3/4 of a boss at a time?

Newsflash.

The game before lvl 20 is not fun for most people. The game above 20 that was so incredibly unbalanced in your distorted view of things is what people enjoyed. Or at least me and my friends. I can't speak for everyone since apparently you've got a few sycophants left that are beaming about this stealth nerf. And I'm sorry that that's going to offend people. I'm in a bad mood and was looking forward to a stress release in game tonight when I found out about this.

[Lord_Krushnor]

Ehh works for me, actually makes pulling easier if there was a group of 25 guys some how; you'll pull 17 finish that off now your left with 8. Making trick pulling a skill too see if you can aggro the right mobs :p. I stopped mass herding awhile ago was fun but got tired of it.

[Thorny_Toad]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

So wait.. does this fall under "no more major power changes"?

Does this this, like ED, slip though some bizzare loop-hole.

[johnnyS]

I have 2 fire tankers! I LOVED HERDING!! It was fun! I had friend because I told them about herding they all loved it. But after this patch they all left. YOU JACK lost about 20 people from triumph just in my SG. Only reason I am sticking around is I got to play a stalker in CoV.

How did Herding effect others? Your vision is jack(ed)!!

Can you tell us about the other "stealth nerf" please. I thought MxO Devs were bad, but you guys crossed the line!

Dark and Light is coming soon you better be ready jack!

[SeniorPanda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, number way too small.

Between in-mission ambushes and groups that are STILL close together, fighting two groups at once is common and fighting three groups at once is hardly rare. I know you say it shouldn't happen, but it does, and I don't see anything in the patch notes for I6 about "spawn points on mission maps changed to avoid aggroing more than one group at once".

Even if you avoid that, there are situations like the mission to defeat Infernal and those zero-xp demons that come pouring out of the portal.

It needs to be doubled.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a team of 8 with one tanker who could normally hold the aggro of 3 mobs who happen to be within aggro range is no longer possible , it will take 2 or more well cooordinated tankers to defend a team.

[Two_Trick]

I have to sound off here as well. Please remove fear from Burn. It was a sad day that I removed it from my Fire Tank, I'd love to get it back. Less damage, more recharge, fine. But making the mobs run is the LAST thing my tank will do to my team, so I respec'd it out.

[Norfed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]
It needs to be doubled.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a team of 8 with one tanker who could normally hold the aggro of 3 mobs who happen to be within aggro range is no longer possible , it will take 2 or more well cooordinated tankers to defend a team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly our problem today. We were taking on nems in an 8 man team..My granite could handle the damage, but could not, even with everything slotted for taunt and recharge, keep aggro on even 1 full spawn. sometyhing was ALWAYS shooting at teh squishies. Even with 2 healers people kept dieing until we got a 2nd tank.

[Freedom55]

i love this game and i feel like im losing a part of it.



i just want to know what it is that u have against herding?


if you dont like it so much then why was it possible in the first place?

its been a part of the game for so long its strange its taken u untill now to realize u dont like it. this seems like something that would have been caught in beta ages ago and if u had a problem with it then u would have done something about it then before the game was even released. or at least well before i6.

have u ever herded?

was it fun or did u just think it was rediculous and unbalanced?

and if so, at what point during the games history did u decide it wasnt appropriate?


do u think that there is an element of skill to herding?

does it matter to u if it was fun for many of the players
in the game to do what seemed perfectly natural for a tanker to do up to this point?


it was pretty obvious to most that the previous nerfs were intended to limit herding and therefore limit power leveling, but in the past
u were at least upfront enough to even address the issue
in an actual statement.

This stealth nerf however is a little dirty and underhanded
with so far a brief explination with no actual details.
( i assume u read the msgboard since u posted and so therefore are aware of many peoples reactions to this)
the word "fix" implies that u feel something was broken with
the game in that it allowed a tank to have too much aggro,
but then why was it a part of the game for so long?
and if u inteded to do this why did u nerf tanks so much already?
do u really think that herding was an overlooked design flaw
that needed to be corrected?

when did u think that herding was a major flaw in your game?
was it something that u just didnt have the resources to change or was it something that u always felt was wrong but were stuck with the AI u initially launched your game with?
maybe instead of making the players abilities poorer to compensate for stupid AI that follow u blindly, u should improve the AI to react differently, rather then be so easily led.
or is that too much work?
im sure the AI would complain alot less. but of course people
will complain no matter what changes u make.

basically (from what i gather) u dont think a tank or anyone for that matter should be able to herd, because its not fair that the AT that is ment
to take dmg and hold aggro should be able to do it "too" well?
(and then making to much xp to fast right?)
so is herding considered an "exploit"?
is it herding you are against or is it powerleveling?
is it because u dont want herding tanks to make too much prestige points for thier sg's?
so i assume u wanted to weaken them step by step and not all at once,
or does it just take this long to implement these kinds of changes?

i have to wonder what the real motivation for this is and why u felt it necessary not only to make these changes but also not to tell anyone that u were or why.
i know this sounds bitter but understand that i was already adjusting to the nerfs i knew about, and then i find this out,
but not from the horses mouth so to speak, feels like ive
had the wool pulled over my eyes.

i read that u have planned for ED since march 2005, but
at what point did u begin to think that herding shouldnt be
a part of the game, or within a tankers(or anyone elses) ability?

and why didnt u tell us about this? i really dont think its because u are worried about a negative reaction :P
u must have made a decision Not to tell people about this
untill after someone discovered it. and even then not to explain your decision to your paying customers.

i know u are not obligated to
and that its your game to "fix"
but why the sneakyness?
why keep your customers in the dark about changes to a
product they have and are paying for?
it honestly seems to me that u dont want people to level too fast. hence spending more time (and money) playing your game.
are u really trying to balance the game or just make people weaker and slower so u can dig into their pockets a little deeper?
are u guys not making enough money?
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?
do you think that herding is losing you some potential revenue?
there must be a reason u want to elimante herding in such an indirect manner.

i was willing to wait for ED to come out before i joined in on the belly aching, and too be honest i dont mind ED that much since i feel people already had to rely too much on stamina and hasten as it was, just to compensate.
(the end red is ok, but what about recharge rates?)
so i wasnt even going to complain.

but this...
this just seems like u are trying to prevent people from playing the game in a particular fashion, in order to curb PL.

but ud never openly punish your client base right?
especailly not based on the actions of the few.
so it is all about balance right?

so, if u want to balance the game why not make everyone
have the same abilites and limitations?
or maybe just have one AT?
then there would be no worries about how people enjoy the
game and if its more or less fun or productive then another
player.

ok ok, so maybe im pissed because your taking away the way i like to play the game, and maybe u just really think that
a tank shouldnt be Able to hold that much agro because another AT cant, but then why not just say so in the same patch updates section the other changes are listed in?

something about this whole "balancing" seems like an excuse to me.
(i resisted this rotten feeling untill i found this out)
if u are really concerned about balance, why is PvP so unbalanced in that some ATs are so much more effective then others?
(or is that what the i7 nerfs will be for?)
why mitigate powers, and not just improve others?


i assume next there will be a sidekick cap?

or someother way to abolish PL completely?

but then , its doesnt seem u have done this yet so maybe u
really are done trying to balance the game, and maybe now u will be happy with your game and everyone will adjust or leave and this will all be a distant memory. and people will
be free to play how they want, PL if they want (altho much slower), and everyone lived happily ever after.

so then, are you happy?

do u think that the game is balanced enough now that u will
not have to penalize powersets any further?

no promises right?




why?

why?

why?

i know u will never answer me, i know that my opionion means little, so i may as well ask myself why i am writing this?

or

why do i play this game?

[firebane]

Actually think I am ok with this. But I do think that this is something you should have done INSTEAD of gutting our defense and now also Status protection (YES, status protection is weaker in I6!!).

[Freedom55]

oh and psifire, that link with the mud whimping stuff,
is so prophetic its scary :p

[Rakeeb]

Eh. Herding wasn't the design of the game regardless -- the game was designed around a group tackling a single mob group, and if they get more added, a problem arises.

Still, I believe you should have been forthright with this, Jack.

[Firebomb]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

So since you've 'fixed' herding, I suppose you can remove the utter gutting inflicted on certain tanker sets?

But oh, they weren't really reduced for PvE were they? Disregard.

[BrasswireBrush]

Yeah wonderful. I love it when players discover stealth ner...er unannounced changes and the Devs are all like "oh, you mean you didnt know? My bad". Just tell us what the heck is going on without us having to discover it ourselves by surprise please.

On a side note, how the hell are we supposed to do the Eden Trial now? Is it even possible to defeat five hundred or so Geodes in the alloted time when you can only take 17 at once?

The sad part, it just got a whole lot tougher for my tanker to do his job. The happy part, he will never die now because there is no way that a measly 17 mobs can kill me, unless they're all psi mobs. So sucks for anyone on my team who accidentally aggros something. "Yknow Id really like to do my job and pull that boss off of you, and Im perfectly capable of doing so, except that Ive already got 17 guys on me. Once I defeat one of them Ill be more than happy to oblige you, try not to die before that ok?".

[Starfox_NA]

While positive in principle, I see some very ugly scenarios with this change.

Imagine 3 spawns close to one another. Big team, big spawns. The tanker charges in. To him, this change is actually a benefit - he cannot aggro more than the group he is attacking. Everyone else follows, and there is the usual slugfest. All well so far.

But oops, someone aggroes the next spawn. The tanker rushes to the rescue, moving into the center of the new group - and promptly loses all aggro from the first group. The group where the short-range controller, blapper, and their defender escort are all at melee range and suddenly find themsleves facing mobs who completely forgot the tanker was even there.

I wonder what happens to the "extra" mobs. Do they lose all aggro and interest in the fight, or do they just drop the main antagonist from their aggro list, changing to the next target or priority. The later would be really nasty - every mob the tanker loses aggro on automatically switches to the blaster or controller...

If the aggro limit was for the TEAM, this could work - but be too powerful. (Basically, that would mean you can never aggro more than a single spawn, ever.) But as a limit per player, it is way too low.

How about making the number AT dependant, so a tanker gets a 100% bonus (34 mobs) while scrappers, masterminds and brutes get a 50% increase (26 mobs). (Perhaps the limit is per minion, in which case masterminds need no change).

I am sure many squishies would want a decrease - imagine if only 8 mobs could be aggroed on you at a time! :)

The way I see my group coping with this is to herd more often but on a smaller scale. Take the above 3-spawn scenario. The tank enters the room in complete safety - no way 17 mobs can hurt him - and then brings back exactly 17 mobs, who are defeated very promptly in the corridor outside. No risk of ever exceeding the 17 mob limit. Rinse and repeat. A general charge - the heroic way to do it - becomes even less of an option.

In summary, I actually like a limit, but 17 is way too low for a tank.

[Steel_Brigade]

But States... AI fix? The 18th con just stands there lookin stupid instead of challenging the hero... why not have the 18th and beyond con choose to target from range and not close to melee til one of the 17 drop instead? Wouldn't that be real AI?... it just doesn't make a heap of sense!

How about enermies with assault weapons or just range in general taking cover? stuff like that is at least respectable AI advancement IMHO. But hey, it's your game and u do what u want i guess.

Oh btw! Your statesman build rocks! I saw you in the strike and totally froze where i was to look. It was like seeing Michael Jackson for the first time in your neighborhood. Well back when he was a phenomenom anyway....lol.

[Beldaran_NA]

So you'll be rolling back:

- the Taunt limit?
- the AoE limit?
- all the DEF and RES changes?

Since they were all to stop herding...but you don't care right? You have fun and that's what matters right?

This latest stealth-nerf just screams exploit. Mobs just stand there while I aggro more mobs. Herding made safe, nice. Even Inv. and Ice "tankers" can herd again. This change was made up so fast nobody thought it out and bothered to add it to the patch notes. I guess you "forgot". Again.

Can I get another free respec btw? I still took Taunt under the misguided impression it could come in handy. Guess you fixed that huh. I won't need it anymore; hell people don't need tanks anymore anyway for just 17 mobs. Just be done with it and make 'em all Brutes or Scrappers. It's how you're forcing us to play them.

But it's ok; just throw another free respec at some point. People love respeccing every time you come up with an "fix". Oh you forgot to give us a free respec for those last minute "fixes" to Phase Shift and Quantum Flight. We'll get those soon I assume?

I like how even you're starting to put fix between quotes by the way. I never thought I'd see the day the allmighty States would realise this isn't even remotely a fix.

*takes deep breath*

Rant over. As you were.

[DarkPhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]
As many have said before this was one of our suggestions so that you did not have to slaughter our defenses. But I guess the only ideas you like on tankers these days are the ones that involve nerfing. But since tankers are working just fine according to the vision you don't really care that we are just glorified scrankers now.

[Onefivetwofive]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy it's finally been done. Now, can we have our powers back? I mean if we can't herd, what's the reason my characters (specially my two tanks) feel weaker and weaker with every update? You want the game harder, that's nice. Apparently you only see the l33t ub0rgam0rs or whatever. Some of us only play a few missions a night, and almost always in solo (especially these days with all our friends moving to COV or allready in the COV beta). The sense of accomplishment per mission is getting smaller and smaller.

There is nothing more boring than a level treadmill. Oh wait. Yes there is, a mission on a level treadmill that is slow and boring because my fights are getting longer and I'm getting defeated more often.

Thanks for the reminder.

[__Goldie__]

[ QUOTE ]
You think that was the real Statesman? On all three servers?

[/ QUOTE ]
Way to miss the point there slick. Thanks for playing.

[EonNight]

Starfox's questions are the ones I want most answered. How the heck does this actually work?

I mean, is it for a team or a mission or a certain radius or per character?

Does this mean that, for instance, you are fighting a full spawn of 17, let's say, and then get close enough to be within aggro range of another spawn (like the stupidly tightly packed spawns in Oranbega maps). Do they start aggroing as mobs in your current pack drop? Or do they aggro and force ones you're already fighting to drop aggro . . . and what happens if you continue to damage those that lost aggro? Does it keep flipflopping?

I mean, I don't like herding, but untill the maps are fixed, REALLY fixed, this won't work. Just last night, in I6, I did an Oranbega mission on Heroic with a team of 6 and there were hallways with 3-6 spawns intermingled. No way to pull, nothing to do but TRY and fight through them . . . which was messy. VERY messy. I frankly couldn't tell you how the 17 cap that was in place was working . . . my screen was filled with baddies.

Basically, what I'm saying is . . . we need to know how this REALLY works. The specifics. Because it's incredibly vital with the current poorly placed spawns.

[DarkPhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]

In summary, I actually like a limit, but 17 is way too low for a tank.

[/ QUOTE ]
With the lower resist numbers tankers have compliments of I5+ ED I don't think the tanker would want to take on 17 bad guys :p.

[RavenGlenn]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the fuss. I used to play with a group that met on a regular basis: fire tanker, fire blaster, and me, illusion/emp controller. After a while me and the blaster became completely superfluous. As a matter of fact, try to be a controller was actually COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the fire tanker's herding.

I gave up xp powerleveling after grinding multiple 50s in DAoC. Games are meant to be played and experienced, not rushed through as fast as possible. Each combat can be a unique experience. Changes made so other players using their powers don't interfere with fire tankers is not a bad thing. Changes made so there is not just one tactic for every mission is not a bad thing. Bringing diversity to a game that already is in dire need of it, given that combat is all we do, is not a bad thing.

So rather than scream nerf all the time, embrace change for the new experiences it can bring.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this. You go looking for a new car to buy. You find a car that you don't like. You don't like the body of it, the engine of it, the interior of it, etc. Instead of finding a car you DO like you demand that they completely change that car into the one you want.

Make sense? Only if you have more money than you know what to do with and want to be incredibly stuburn.

Same thing goes here. You had things you did not like about CoH(i.e. Herding). There are plenty of other games out there that don't have herding. Why don't you play those? For one, me and most of my SG mates love herding because it brings with it a sense of power(note: Superhero game). Now, when I wanted more teamwork based play, I went to EQ2. When I wanted more in depth quests and items, I went to WoW. When I wanted to beat the ever loving crap out of baddies in the most insanely fun way possible, I went to CoH.

All I ask is this: CoH is a superhero game. If you don't like that it is a superhero game, go to another MMO. Asking for the game to be balanced and teamwork oriented is like taking the Super Friends and telling them their powers must be balanced with each other!

I'm sorry Superman, but you are no longer allowed to have superstrength and fly. It just doesn't balance well with Aquaman's powers. Oh and Batman, you need to lose about 75% of your gadgets, it is simply too much in comparison to Hawkman.

[_Redd_]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Then can I please have my taunt back, since you have finally fixed the AI.

Are you going to roll back all the other nerfs that you imposed upon us to "fix herding".

or now that you have actually fixed herding, can you now come out and admit that you gutted my tank, not to fix herding but to accommodate PVP.

????

[Fire_Bad]

If you guys can take on 20 mobs at a time without being in danger then THANK GOD YOU WEREN'T NERFED HARDER.

[DarkPhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
If you guys can take on 20 mobs at a time without being in danger then THANK GOD YOU WEREN'T NERFED HARDER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you missed this lovely tidbit from statesman
[ QUOTE ]
One of the posters discussed his Tanker – and how he leaped into the fray with 2 Bosses, 2 or 3 lts. And 2 or 3 minions…and promptly had to flee. A spawn such as that in a mission would be designed for 5 heroes.

[/ QUOTE ]
A tanker would not want 17 mobs on him :p

[Blueeyed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the posters discussed his Tanker – and how he leaped into the fray with 2 Bosses, 2 or 3 lts. And 2 or 3 minions…and promptly had to flee. A spawn such as that in a mission would be designed for 5 heroes.

[/ QUOTE ]
A tanker would not want 17 mobs on him :p

[/ QUOTE ]

Until they're in a team. Cause with buffs from a defender or two, a blaster adding damage in, and two scrappers holding an enemy for themselves, even Ice Tankers can easily take 17 mobs on them.

In those situations, though, the Tanker is screwed now. I've seen single spawns with more than 20 enemies in them on solo Rugged, which I quickly bugged, thank you so very much. In a teamed setting faced with those enemies, a tanker can do nothing to help with the last 3. And in the right situations, those last three will be more than enough to TKO a squishy.

Good idea, bad when added to existing nerfs, and a bad number chosen.

[9783_Dollar_Man]

So, now that herding is dead, any chance you might roll back some of the other changes you've made to impair it in the past, like (for example) the timed Shadowhunter missions? It's hard enough to find a decent team in the 40s now, let alone one that can take down an AV post-ED.

[Solo_4114]

Either Statesman hasn't fully explained the system (which is entirely possible, given that he tends NOT to explain himself particularly well and leaves great big gaps which either yes-men or angry players fill in until he steps in to confirm that one side is right or wrong), or this system will be exploitable and immersion-breaking.

If this is your "fix" to AI, you need to work harder. I'd rather have a real fix than something like this. Make the AI more dynamic, smarter, more challenging instead of just changing who stands around looking like a smacked [censored] while I beat the hell out of his compatriot not more than two feet from him.

You know what I hate? I hate kung fu movies where the hero takes on one guy at a time out of a group of like 30 guys. It's like "Wait your turn, Disposeable Badguy #5! #4 through #1 still have to get their chance to fight." That seems like the direction COH is moving.

In fact, that's pretty much how it's ALWAYS been, even when you had enemies attacking at range. Tell you what. Roll up a new character. Make him, say, a blaster. Run up to a spawn in Atlas of Hellions. Try to find a group of one LT and three minions. Attack a minion. Notice how he runs up to pound on you with a baseball bat, but at least one if not both of his minion buddies stand back and plink away at you with pistols?

That happens throughout the game. It's the "Wait your turn, #5" problem, and this particular "fix" only makes this issue MORE glaring.

[BloodPython]

[ QUOTE ]
All I ask is this: CoH is a superhero game. If you don't like that it is a superhero game, go to another MMO. Asking for the game to be balanced and teamwork oriented is like taking the Super Friends and telling them their powers must be balanced with each other!

[/ QUOTE ]

And this's the point where I say, "what're you smoking?" Seriously, this "it's a superhero game!!11!!01010!" crap has got to go.

Do you guys honestly think that it'd be any fun playing Superman on a team setting? If it would be for you, how about the rest of the team who does jack [censored] but watch you stomp stuff. Because the way THEIR powers work makes them obsolete to you.

You are not Superman. You never will be Superman here. You are a hero "extra", the nameless ones you see in comics from time to time.

You are not extraordinary from other heroes in the city.

In short, YOU ARE NOT STATESMAN!!!

So get over it. They are not going to let you blatantly outlevel every other AT in the game you could've played, and make teaming with other ATs totally worthless other than for spawning more.

If anybody else uses Marvel or DC characters as a rationale for how this totally different COOPERATIVE computer game should be modeled, I'll hold them down and beat them with my shoe.

~Fed Up Rock~

[SQLQuery]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

After thinking about it overnight, I think I understand now.....Statesman the character is meant to be the only buttkicker Tanker in the game, so the rest of us tankers must be nerfed down to come in line with that. Man and I thought the Statesman of the comic was arrogant.

Actually I think there are some valid points, where is the kickback to us tankers to compensate for what we have lost. It does seem strange that Tankers and their abilities seem to be getting so much "love" lately.

[HansJanus]

[ QUOTE ]

This will mean I don't need Taunt any more, which is a net plus.

[/ QUOTE ]
So... what role do you see your tank being in?
Me? I like to protect my less-defended teammates by being able to hold the aggro of the things we're fighting.
I honestly hope people aren't abandoning taunt because they saw it as a herding tool and not a somewhat essential ability for an effective tank to have.

lol... boggles my mind a bit.

[StrangeMatter]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?


[/ QUOTE ]

Riiight. Sadam Hussein is reviled. GWB is reviled. The CoH Devs are guys and gals who type on keyboards to make a video game. Nothing to revile here, move along!

[BloodPython]

Ten points for Hans!

Taunt's not a herding tool, least it wasn't designed to be. It's an ag controller.

If I'm kenning the original non-herding intent of it, it was to let you stand stationary with a lot of guys on you and snag off problematic mobs at RANGE from your healers etc.

Aint about herding, it's about keeping those five strays who got by you off the Blaster long enough for him to kill em.

[Great_Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
This will mean I don't need Taunt any more, which is a net plus.

[ QUOTE ]
So... what role do you see your tank being in?
Me? I like to protect my less-defended teammates by being able to hold the aggro of the things
we're fighting.
I honestly hope people aren't abandoning taunt because they saw it as a herding tool and not a
somewhat essential ability for an effective tank to have.

lol... boggles my mind a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit my point exactly, HansJanus. You see, a well-played Tank can keep aggro on 12-15 mobs WITHOUT Taunt, Auras and Punch-voke can handle that (especially since I can replace other enhancement with Taunt Duration because of ED)

Taunt is really only needed to grab momentary aggro from LTs/Bosses who peel off to attack a damage dealer..who, now, with ED, is doing less damage (and so my Taunt effects are harder to break).

I can replace Taunt with a melee attack, and be absolutely fine. Since there is now a Taunt limit, no ability the Tank has available will keep 2 full spawns on him, and the main use for Taunt was to... 1) Grab initial aggro (not applicable due to the 17-mob limit), and 2) Pull fleeing mobs back to him (unneeded due to the new limit).

Which is nice, since there are other powers I'd like to take.

I understand that this is a perverse viewpoint, but it's quite true. Taunt no longer has a use to an "active" Tank. For a "passive" Tank, Taunt has a hard limit of 5 targets per use, so you can't keep your team safe unless you are very active or have a Taunt aura....so if you're keeping your team safe post-I5...no need for Taunt.

[Casket]

This was probably already mentioned, but if i remember corectly one of the reasons for the brain bashing nerf bat of I5 was to reign in the plvlers and herding. I do remember ppl telling the devs that an AI fix would do the same thing without having to nerf ppl. And now they did the AI fix after 2 hardcore nerfs from I5 and I6. Why? You nerfed "herding" missions and every AT across the board to discourage herding and now after the nerfs add an AI fix? Does that mean you'll be restoring us to superhero status now or are we doomed to the status of common thugs and police officers?

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
i just want to know what it is that u have against herding?

[/ QUOTE ]States hates having powerlevelers in his game. It's that simple.[ QUOTE ]
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.

[DarkPhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted from the truth, there is no end game they have been promising it for a long time now but we got nothing . The only thng they have managed to come back with so far is that we have pvp :eek:

My level 50 has been dying to get some action hell I could have had 3 level 50's by now but 50 means the fun ends so I usually start stalling around the 40's.

[syberghost]

[ QUOTE ]
Gues they REALLY Wanted to nerf herding hua?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nerf Herder! (http://www.nerfherder.net/)

[Scorus]

So all I have to do is aggro 17 Rikti Monkeys on me and that boss will never attack me?

Scorus

[Freedom55]

yeah well many of my questions altho serious have an element of toungue in cheek to them.
its my socratic method i guess.

but its not like herding with a tank is the only way to PL.

and i honestly disagree that PLing to 50 will make people
quit since it seems to be only the hardcore addicts and altoholics that do most of the PLing anyway, and they are prolly many of the people whove logged in the most hours.


anyway



why would a villan ignore u after u punched him in the face and set him on fire?
"oh wait" says the villan, " that guy's is already fighting too many guys, i better leave him alone, that wouldnt be fair"
what kind of villan has that sense of compassion?
RETARDICULOUS!
this "fix" seems like an ez way out instead of making
the AI smarter and more dynamic.
they still stack and blindly follow so they are as stupid as ever.
maybe even stupider now that u can be standing right next to them fighting all their buddies with out them even turing to look at u.
its even more unrealistic then b4.
oh and as if they will ever rollback previous nerfs.
if anything there will be more anti leveling nerfs as they have already demonstrated that they think people are leveling too fast. its not just power levelers that are affected by this.
any tank who is (albeit barely) capable of solo herding in a
hazard zone etc now is not able to aggro as many baddies at once so now a solo grinder is limited as well.
this was personally my fav method of leveling, it is not cheating at all but i am being treated as if it were.
dont give me this crap about intending that these mob sized were for groups of 5 either because as a player i should have a choice whether or not to solo a bunch of mobs, and previously i was capable
of doing so. so what, now u are against soloing?
who wants to solo in an MMORPG u say? lots of people, plus
the fact that many people play at different hours other than peak when it can be hard to get a team even if u want to.
or people dont have the time to commit to a team but would like to play a video game they payed for without being punished because some other people are leveling too fast.

u know, its sad cuz i was actually ok with ED, i really dont mind it that much ( not 100% thrilled, but i can live with it,
plus i actually like some of the changes)
and the new content, PvP zones, CoV, all of this has me so excited about the game(s). i think they did a really cool job
and most of the updates i think are great.

but these stealth anti-herding sidekicking nerfs not only piss me off for being unanounced, but i really think they hurt the
game, especially the way i like to play.
and im not surprised to find out that im not the only one who feels this way. its seems alot of people are hurt by this also.

i play this game alot and have always been accepting of the changes made and many of them i felt were an earnest attempt to improve the game and i respect that, its alot of work for the Devs and they were usually pretty responsive to the players.
but now it seems like they are using corporate legal loopholes to get out of explaining changes they are making to punish everyone for the actions of the few.

it all comes down to freedom of choice, which is being restricted. i thought heroes (super or otherwise) were supposed to stand up for people freedoms, the ability to choose, etc.

even tho your game is laden with metaphors for freedom and justice, its ironic that u are actually taking away previous freedoms people have enjoyed.

[Capn_Canadian]

[ QUOTE ]
So all I have to do is aggro 17 Rikti Monkeys on me and that boss will never attack me?

Scorus

[/ QUOTE ]
It appears highly exploitable doesn't it?

I wonder if I can aggro 17 robots and attack Anti-Matter with impunity, eh?

[Capn_Canadian]

[ QUOTE ]
RETARDICULOUS!

[/ QUOTE ]
I love that word!

[GadgetDon]

More likely, if you have 17 rikti monkeys attacking you, and you attack the chief soldier, one of the monkeys looses interest.

[Solo_4114]

He won't attack you on his own. But if you attack him, he'll attack back.

Think of it as the boss having a fear effect applied to him.

This applies to AVs as well, I suspect.

So, yeah, assuming this works the way I think it does, you could aggro 17 grey minions, and stand 2 inches from an AV, and nothing would happen until you hit the AV, who would attack you once and go back to buffing his nails.

[Happy_Thoughts]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]
So you'll be rolling back the global defense nerfs that were explicitly put in place to prevent herding, right?

Silly me.

I'll go back to my support group for sub-par Trick Arrow Defenders now, don't mind me.

[__Goldie__]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right, INSTEAD of gutting our powers! And you wonder why you are so reviled?


[/ QUOTE ]

Riiight. Sadam Hussein is reviled. GWB is reviled. The CoH Devs are guys and gals who type on keyboards to make a video game. Nothing to revile here, move along!

[/ QUOTE ]
reviled

adj : assailed with contemptuous language

Sounds pretty accurate to me. There's evidence enough in this very thread. The term doesn't appear to be restricted to public figures. So, as you say, "move along!" :)

[Norfed]

[ QUOTE ]

Aint about herding, it's about keeping those five strays who got by you off the Blaster long enough for him to kill em.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem comes when those 5 guys utterly ignore your taunt because they were part of the 2nd group that aggroed and you already have 17 guys looking your way.

[Great_Scott]

You missed a question: "Why do the Invulnerability set encourage herding when herding is frowned upon?" (this is a Invincibility reference).

[Thurgald]

A hard cap is not an AI change. Get your terms right.

People stop complaining that these changes reduce your enjoyment of the game. Jack Emmert does not care.

And stop calling him Statesman, he lost the moral right to use a superhero name about I4.

[Helmkat]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...



[/ QUOTE ]

You have only defined the size of the herd. Cowboys will now just round up their 17 cows and then move onto the next 17. LOL I bet herders will just come back and say...

"Thanks for making herding safer now States, sometimes my eyes got to big for my powers and I rounded up to many."

note to development team: Make the bad guys smarter, not dumber.

Villian one: Hey man, that hero just smacked you on the side of the head. You just going to take that?!

Villian two: You obviously did'nt get them memo from lord Recluse "No more then 17 villians on a hero at one time." and I count 17 over there. I will just wait till one is defeated, then I go in, you can come in after I am defeated.

Villian one: But we could both be shotting him with our guns from here!

Villian two: Have you seen Recluse? he's a scarey [censored] and I am going to follow the memo! Besides one more demerit and they take away my cafe privileges.

Villian one: You are an idiot and I quit.

[SablePhoenix]

Good lord.

Just bite the bullet and remove the Tanker archetype from the game, already.

I love how this was put in with NO announcement whatsoever.

[Boltar_X]

Apologies if this has been said...I just don't understand why players where asking for a fix to herding! What do you care how other people play the game. There I had to get it off my chest. :)

[Aquila_NA]

Thank you SO much for making several Powers and Enhancements even MORE useless than they were. In fact, thank you for making the entire CONCEPT of a Tanker useless. Never will anyone make a Tanker again, when they can make a Scrapper instead. Oh! Right, until you kill Scrappers too!

States, are you sure you're not a Kinetics Controller? 'Cause you certainly excell at sucking the fun out of YOUR game.

[Myrmydon]

[ QUOTE ]
How about taking the fear out of burn then. As is it is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed totally.

[Norfed]

[ QUOTE ]
More likely, if you have 17 rikti monkeys attacking you, and you attack the chief soldier, one of the monkeys looses interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what will happen, unless you try a taunt, which will do nothing, or a ranged attack combined with a damage aura, which will allow the boss one attack back then he will lose intrest.

[Happy_Thoughts]

[ QUOTE ]
Apologies if this has been said...I just don't understand why players where asking for a fix to herding! What do you care how other people play the game. There I had to get it off my chest. :)

[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstand. When the I5 changes were announced, the reason given for many of the global changes was that the devs wanted to prevent herding.

What many of us suggested at the time was a way for them to address herding (since they were going to do it anyway) without impacting non-herding play. Things like preventing NPC stacking, aggro range limits from their spawn points, etc. In other words, solutions that would address the problem without nerfs to the heroes themselves.

What's happening now is that we get the global nerfs and an AI change, when a properly thought-out AI change would do the trick by itself.

Apparently it's too hard to implement AI changes without first nerfing the player characters. <boggle>

[Click_Beetle]

[ QUOTE ]
But States... AI fix? The 18th con just stands there lookin stupid instead of challenging the hero... why not have the 18th and beyond con choose to target from range and not close to melee til one of the 17 drop instead? Wouldn't that be real AI?... it just doesn't make a heap of sense!

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that is a good idea.

[elfgirl]

Not a reply to previous, just a reply in general. I'd pretty much given up on the boards. ED was a horrible blow. It cut damage by a ton. This change to aggro...it hurts. Hurts alot. We really CAN'T do our jobs as tankers anymore. Not even alone, with no-one to interfere with the aggro. I feel like I've kicked in the gut. By a horse. Repeatedly. All of the changes make me KNOW that this is now the City of Slightly Better than Average People. I really, truly and honestly think that States and co are trying to turn this into a SuperZero version of WoW. The graphics are tending in that direction. (except for the modern citie scapes) Some of the "new" power groups in CoV are carbon copies of WoW graphics and powers. The plant controller is basically a Druid. Same holds, same graphics in alot of ways. I wonder if the WoW people have noticed yet? I'm sorry, States, if I wanted to play WoW, I'd be playing WoW. Which I do...more often than I'm on this game anymore. At least the world there is HUGE, there are thousands of storylines to follow and very cool loot that's useable as more than a base enhancement. No, I'm not going to quit CoH and CoV, if for no other reason than that I want to maintain my ability to tell Jack and his Dev team what cretins they are.

I've said it before, it's worth repeating. When I first got this game, I felt a thrill every time I logged on. The music, the costumes, the people in the game. They made for wonderful and addicting fun. That sense of fun, that thrill from logging on, was maintained until I4. Which I struggled through and learned how to deal with. It decreased my happiness in the game, but I still wanted to play. The Hami nerf just about did me in. I came really close to quitting at that point, and only that fact that people who had truly become friends were still playing kept me logging in and occasionally doing more than PL'ing, which I did just because I know it annoys Jack.

Then came I5. That horrible issue that found me logging in less and less. To be honest, the only reason I'm still ON CoH is because it costs nothing extra. I'm moving along to CoV (until you nerf IT to death also). My main reason for playing that? The opportunity to kill Statesman in game. Yep, that's my goal, my motivation. I need some payback for the horrible and continued [censored] of a once great game. Hey, I don't think that term is overdone for what you have done, either. In fact, it fits perfectly. All of my characters have been made to bend over and take it up rear. Repeatedly.

So....my response to this change? It's a total mistake. If you had done this INSTEAD of all the other nerfs to get rid of herding (and yeah, we all know that's the REAL motivation for doing what you did to the tanks) then it would have been fine. Making it in addition to all the other changes, that's pure and simple overkill. Lemme tell ya. Tanks now do MINIMAL damage, can barely survive without healer support and can now only aggro 17 villians at a time? Do us all a favor. Delete the AT. Be honest that you never intended to give us the ability to be Supermen and women. Make sure that includes deleting Statesman, though. Because HE shouldn't be able to be Superman either.

[Click_Beetle]

My only additional comment to this thread is that, even before the three month hiatus I took between I5 and I6, I had more or less stopped grouping with tanks except when AVs came up. I became so sick of the pattern of "tank enters -> herd constructed -> herd-compatible attacks invoked -> recovery -> repeat cycle" that I just didn't want to play with tanks anymore. All squishy teams were simply much more fun and interesting than playing tanker's cleanup boy with half my powers.

I'm not saying that this will fix anything, or that this was the best way to go about this, but what I am saying is that there was a problem, at least for me. Teaming with tankers wasn't any fun.

[Green_Thumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

From a previous post by Statesman:
[ QUOTE ]
Thirdly, I CAN say unequivocally that we have NO other major changes planned. A few posts have asked that specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

So this doesn't qualify as "major" to you. I see it as a large change to mob AI, and well worth mentioning when ED was announced.

[Corporate]

Woohoo! Goodbye Taunt! :D

[aqshy2004]

[ QUOTE ]
Good lord.

Just bite the bullet and remove the Tanker archetype from the game, already.

I love how this was put in with NO announcement whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, ED made it harder, I'm not able to pull off the stunts I was used to but I'm happy with my tank, so speak for yourself.

Why don't you remove your Tanker from your account and be done with it? :p

[SablePhoenix]

I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.

Next?

[Stupid_Fanboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Woohoo! Goodbye Taunt! :D

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, this seals the deal for me. not gonna include it in my I6 respec

[Rigel_Kent]

[ QUOTE ]
You misunderstand. When the I5 changes were announced, the reason given for many of the global changes was that the devs wanted to prevent herding.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. For instance, at that time, Snow Storm could only affect ten targets. Even now, Shiver still only affects ten targets. The reason the devs gave for the target limit-- the only reason that made sense-- was to prevent herding.

Sixth verse, same as the first.

[Seermark]

I'm taking bids on the next huge "game-breaking" tactic that will be blamed for "minor changes" in either "powers" or "AI" in the near future...herding has already been taken care of...twice.

[aqshy2004]

[ QUOTE ]
I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.

Next?

[/ QUOTE ]

You erased your pvl'd tank because you couldn't adjust and you use the mediocrity card?.....The irony of this post is.....amazing! lol

[Rokayas]

[ QUOTE ]
States hates having powerlevelers in his game. It's that simple.[ QUOTE ]
do u think that if some one gets powerleveled to 50 that they
will just quit playing?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, he does. He think's they'll get bored because there is no end-game yet and they'll leave. That's why he hates having powerlevelers in his game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at the consumer/producer relationship in this. Yes, by default it is his game. He developed the game. He presented it to a company that marketed the game to consumers - you and me. They make the profit off of us purchasing and playing it. However, imop, once I buy something, it is no longer THEIRS. It becomes MINE. The consumer. You don't go out and buy a sofa and say "this is Rooms-To-Go's sofa," you say. "this is my sofa." Period. If you call them and say that the cushion are ripped, you don't call them and say "your cushions are ripped, you should replace them," you say, "my cushions are ripped and I'd like to replace them." Point being, even though someone else made the game, you are paying for it. With everything good and bad, you as the cosumer have the ultimate power. Ask any company why they are in business, and they'll tell you because of the customer. They buy the products. They pay the salaries. If you don't like how something is being done, find another product. I'm not trying to start a flame. I for one am VERY upset about my Dark Defender now. I won't say that he's dead, but running a solo mission IS impossible for me now. I don't have 2 hours to run a mission by myself. Maybe that's why it took me nearly 9 months to hit 50 with him. But I feel like my hero has been betrayed. (Comic book reference: It's kinda like Professor X spending 30+ years teaching the X-Men about being heroic, saving lives, blah blah blah...and then becoming Onslaught and trying to destroy the world. It's a total slap in the face).

I guess my point in this is that there are always going to be upsides and downside to everything, including this game. Are we always going to be happy with it? No. Is it still fun? Mostly. Personally, I feel as though there has been enough deception with Issue releases. My roommate was telling me last night that Blizzard is raising the level cap on WoW to 70. When will that happen? We don't know yet. But at least they're talking about it. Nice to know those devs value their customers. At this point, I don't feel like a valued customer, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Also, even though I should know better than to do this, I'm putting a link in my sig to a copy of all my powers and their slotted enhancements up. Please, before any negative comments about it, I am aware of how Stamina, Health, Shadow Fall, and Tactics are slotted. I'm not changing them. I'm playing City of Heroes, not City of Respecs.

http://home.comcast.net/~themavericks/Rokpowerset.html

[CatMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember, just after City of Heroes release, people who would pull scores upon scores of Hellions, CoT, Skulls, and sometimes Hydra to the Atlas Park Gate in Perez Park. It was an incredible sight. Course, the unsuspecting were thus griefed, but the massive battle that took place was incredible to watch. At the time my character was at a low 12, so I would hover in the air and heal or ressurect where needed. But it was something.


Havn't seen such action like that since post release, but the memory is terrific yet fond.

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.

Next?

[/ QUOTE ]

You erased your pvl'd tank because you couldn't adjust and you use the mediocrity card?.....The irony of this post is.....amazing! lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I erased by Tank because the changes that started back in I3 with Rage rendered her a chore to play rather than a joy. I never once powerleveled her. Every level was earned by playing. I'd tapped out every contact in the game, done every storyline, fought every AV multiple times, taken on multiple reactor trials above and beyond what I needed for respec purposes to help others out or just for fun. Multiple people told me I was the best tanker they'd ever teamed with. So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.

A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

You ought take that to heart.

My original point still stands. With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.

[CannonFodder]

Was there a need to fix it? Tank defense got nuked especially that of the inv tanks and then with the diversified enhancements it got nuked even more. My level 50 inv tank with all defense and resist maxed would die if he could agroed two groups let alone keep that agro. I say Fix my tank.

[aqshy2004]

[ QUOTE ]
So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!

Welcome to a more balanced game.

What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?....You are just addicted to what became a broken AT in the late levels. If you really invested all those hours in your tank and erased it like he was level 5....read your Abraham Lincon's quote!!! :p

2 SG friends did the skyraiders AND freaks respec trial as a duo. Illusion/rad controller and Ice/Ice blaster. It wasn't a surprise they could do it, but.....A mission which should be based on teamwork is duo'ed and people say the game's balanced?!?!.......When I fancied it, I could solo invincible missions designed for 6/7 people (except AV and heavy Psi opponents). I fought +7 carnies when I got a "look for 45 carnies in the streets of PI" (without ring mistresses or master illusionists). I could herd half the friggin' Dreck mission map. I'm sure you could do that too. If that's what made you great in other people's eye, there were 100,000 others like you. Stroking your online ego is gratifying, but....get real.... :)

[ QUOTE ]
A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to read that another hundred times boy because this:

[ QUOTE ]
With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Proves nothing and makes Abraham Lincon right.

Anyway, it's been amusing. Keep up your lost crusade, I'll be playing and having fun with my tank and other assorted characters....ah, you won't be able to play your tank, you erased it..... :)

[Tipop]

[ QUOTE ]
However, imop, once I buy something, it is no longer THEIRS. It becomes MINE. The consumer. You don't go out and buy a sofa and say "this is Rooms-To-Go's sofa," you say. "this is my sofa." Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bit of a side issue, but you don't own software. Ever. You own the disc it came on, and the box it was in, and the manuals... but the software, never. What you bought is a license allowing you to use it, and perhaps make an archival backup. Hence the End User License Agreement, which restricts how you can use it.

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!

Welcome to a more balanced game.

What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?....You are just addicted to what became a broken AT in the late levels. If you really invested all those hours in your tank and erased it like he was level 5....read your Abraham Lincon's quote!!! :p

2 SG friends did the skyraiders AND freaks respec trial as a duo. Illusion/rad controller and Ice/Ice blaster. It wasn't a surprise they could do it, but.....A mission which should be based on teamwork is duo'ed and people say the game's balanced?!?!.......When I fancied it, I could solo invincible missions designed for 6/7 people (except AV and heavy Psi opponents). I fought +7 carnies when I got a "look for 45 carnies in the streets of PI" (without ring mistresses or master illusionists). I could herd half the friggin' Dreck mission map. I'm sure you could do that too. If that's what made you great in other people's eye, there were 100,000 others like you. Stroking your online ego is gratifying, but....get real.... :)

[ QUOTE ]
A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to read that another hundred times boy because this:

[ QUOTE ]
With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Proves nothing and makes Abraham Lincon right.

Anyway, it's been amusing. Keep up your lost crusade, I'll be playing and having fun with my tank and other assorted characters....ah, you won't be able to play your tank, you erased it..... :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say mediocrity equaled the inability to fight +5s? Did I say anything at all about herding Dreck maps? I despise herding, it's incredibly boring. Did you not notice where I said I had not been powerleveled even one level?

Stroking my online ego has no place here. If you'll read what I said, I never claimed that I was a great tank. I would not make such a claim when I know there are a lot of other great tankers out there, some of whom I personally admired. It was something that other players, and not just a few, said to me. I'm not going to deny that it was true, because from their perspective, it probably was.

Once again you're ascribing motives and practices to me that you cannot support and attributing things to me that I did not say.

Besides all that, if someone cannot even spell, capitalize, or punctuate correctly, their intelligence is most likely not high enough to take their arguments seriously. There's another quote applicable to this situation: "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

But please, do continue, it's quite amusing to watch your mental and linguistic flailings.

[Sinclair_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just absurd... You fixed herding already !! =P Caps on number of targets for AE attacks was to fix herding =P 5-mob cap on taunt was to fix herding =P

This doesn't "fix" anything -- this BREAKS a tanker's ability to tank situations that regularly arise =P My JOB as a tanker is to keep aggro of however many mobs aggro... sometimes that number will be 2 or 3 groups at once... I mean, I get -- even though I don't agree with -- that my job is NOT to be able to single handlely survive that many mobs at once... I have a controller or defender to help me do that. But my job is most certainly to take the damage of whatever happens to be still moving =P

I just can't believe how much y'all have gutted tankers in this game... Y'know -- I5, not a big deal in the long run. Made things harder -- but not so much as it wasn't impossible, just enough so it was actually fun & challenging... ED also not a big deal in the long run -- needed a respec, but in the end, anything I could take with I5, I could take with I5 + ED. But this is absurd =P

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I say mediocrity equaled the inability to fight +5s? Did I say anything at all about herding Dreck maps? I despise herding, it's incredibly boring. Did you not notice where I said I had not been powerleveled even one level?

[/ QUOTE ]Do you always answer questions with questions?

[SablePhoenix]

It's called a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious.

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
It's called a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]Only if we're in your head. Which we aren't.

[SablePhoenix]

Or if you have a reasonable level of critical thinking skill and associative ability.

[Ex_Libris]

Heh sweet no more accidently pulling so many ninjas they lag out and i cant attack. :D

on a more serious note..this sux

Why would i bother playing my stone tank now?

[Ex_Libris]

erm wow why the heck is my name red?

[SightNinja]

DONT COMPLAIN

=P

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
Or if you have a reasonable level of critical thinking skill and associative ability.

[/ QUOTE ]You're so busy defending yourself that you didn't notice you weren't being attacked. Except for that PL thing earlier.[ QUOTE ]
You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!

What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?.

[/ QUOTE ]Looks to me that aqshy was asking you to clairfy what you meant by "mediocre", not if you called (notice the lack of the past tense in the quote) it being able to fight +5 purples and herding half the map. Not only were you answering a question with a question, you answered a question that wasn't even asked!

Physician, heal thyself.

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]
erm wow why the heck is my name red?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick Edit Statesman's posts now!

Anounce all Tanks getting a base 20% resist vs all!

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

So how did you stumble across the number 17? My tank doesn't use Taunt and can control more mobs than that and you regularly get more mobs than that in TFs. So why?

[Defense_Options]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
erm wow why the heck is my name red?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick Edit Statesman's posts now!

Anounce all Tanks getting a base 20% resist vs all!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not for nothing but a flat 20% base for tanker resists would be great. A new inherit power that actually does something useful to us.

[Jagged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
erm wow why the heck is my name red?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick Edit Statesman's posts now!

Anounce all Tanks getting a base 20% resist vs all!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not for nothing but a flat 20% base for tanker resists would be great. A new inherit power that actually does something useful to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I'd even accept a drop in HP to balance it.

[SablePhoenix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or if you have a reasonable level of critical thinking skill and associative ability.

[/ QUOTE ]You're so busy defending yourself that you didn't notice you weren't being attacked. Except for that PL thing earlier.[ QUOTE ]
You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!

What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?.

[/ QUOTE ]Looks to me that aqshy was asking you to clairfy what you meant by "mediocre", not if you called (notice the lack of the past tense in the quote) it being able to fight +5 purples and herding half the map. Not only were you answering a question with a question, you answered a question that wasn't even asked!

Physician, heal thyself.

[/ QUOTE ]

And your reading comprehension is abysmal.

Aqshy was not asking for clarification. Go read his post again. No, on second thought, don't bother. I'd point out exactly what he was saying, but something tells me you would deny that he was in fact saying that.

Once again we see that subtlety is wasted on the simple-minded.

I will spend no more time on someone of your paltry intelligence quotient.

[Yomo_Kimyata]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

Check your records amigo, because my INV scrapper still draws more than 15 mobs. I don't want to, but I do. Scrapper Invincibility has a ridiculous aggro radius based on my ability to rebuff said mobs, and I have documented drawing between 18 and 25 mobs in missions.

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
And your reading comprehension is abysmal.

[/ QUOTE ]I read just fine, thanks.[ QUOTE ]
Aqshy was not asking for clarification. Go read his post again. No, on second thought, don't bother. I'd point out exactly what he was saying, but something tells me you would deny that he was in fact saying that.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, I wouldn't deny anything. I have no doubt that you think he said something to malign your character. I would think that too if I were in a combative mood. It's a simple matter of reading from a certain point of view and I sure as hell don't share yours.

If having a different point of view makes me simple-minded in your eyes, so be it. Must be a whole bunch of us running around.

[siegeszug]

[ QUOTE ]
Once again we see that subtlety is wasted on the simple-minded.

I will spend no more time on someone of your paltry intelligence quotient.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmm...superiority complex...tastes good with a side of ego..

[Skywatcher68]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once again we see that subtlety is wasted on the simple-minded.

I will spend no more time on someone of your paltry intelligence quotient.

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm...superiority complex...tastes good with a side of ego..

[/ QUOTE ]I'd say something but Mr_C is being defensive enough as it is.

[Zeppline]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once again we see that subtlety is wasted on the simple-minded.

I will spend no more time on someone of your paltry intelligence quotient.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmm...superiority complex...tastes good with a side of ego..

[/ QUOTE ]

No Kidding. Look Mr. Mensa I agree with your points, but you have got to stop being such a self absorbed [censored]. Seriously, you are probably one of those people who tries to induce hippomotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia in people in normal conversation.


And yes, I do realize the Irony of using overly large words in a conversation talking about not acting superior to everyone. Its even funnier if you check out the definition of hippomotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia here (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia)

[Zeppline]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]I know that most likely you wont care about what I have to say, but I think this "fix" isnt fair to those players who happen to like taking on large groups of enemies.

[/ QUOTE ]Com'on, don't BS. The only reason to herd more than 17 mobs is to farm XP. That's why people like taking on large herds of mobs. With the right builds and team, you can easily get beaucoup XP this way very quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, no

What about doing a defeat all mish quickly?
We have to deafeat "all" the mobs, why does it matter if we do it over time or all at once. All hearding does is save time in getting xp. Same thing with slotting for a ton of damage. Are you seriously gonna tell me that slotting for lots of damage is bad?



HEY!!!! WAIT A MINUTE.....

[StrangeMatter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once again we see that subtlety is wasted on the simple-minded.

I will spend no more time on someone of your paltry intelligence quotient.

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm...superiority complex...tastes good with a side of ego..

[/ QUOTE ]I'd say something but Mr_C is being defensive enough as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

But come on, look at his sig, he said he's not your friend. That means he gets to behave like an idiot and feel justified.

Antisocial for teh win!

[Lugh65]

boo hoo something that made the game incredibly boring for everyone NOT the tanker is dead..

I say this knowing that as a controller I did the same thing.. made the game boring for everyone not me..
:cool:

[ImaSolJa]

Herding is not dead. It's just nerfed. Now if you wanna herd, go get another tanker to come with you. Thats 34 you can pull now. Or 2 tankers....

As for taking down AV's while you have 17 mobs on you... think again. If you actually read the post regarding the change, minions will give up their agro to lt's and bosses. So if you run into 17 groups, you'll probably end up with 17 bosses chasing you... not 17 minions. A boss will give up his agro to an AV. So herding ain't dead... you just get to herd the big boys and leave the minions in their spot.

[JusticeZero]

...Thank you, Statesman. I kind've like this. I just wish that this and ED had gone in before a lot of other adjustments that were seemingly put in to deal with the issues that their lack created.

[JusticeZero]

[ QUOTE ]
someone aggroes the next spawn. The tanker rushes to the rescue, moving into the center of the new group - and promptly loses all aggro from the first group. The group where the short-range controller, blapper, and their defender escort are all at melee range and suddenly find themsleves facing mobs who completely forgot the tanker was even there.

[/ QUOTE ]Frankly, speaking as a Defender, I can defend myself. To imply that I can't cope with a few mobs that have dropped off the tank verges on the insulting. I've tanked spawns before when things go haywire. I can't do it forever, sure, it's stressful, and I have trouble beating them all, but i'm not some helpless flower either. All my Defenders and my Mind/Empathy controller are typically to be found in the thick of it all in some manner, having a fraction of the aggro come off of the tank to wander loose in my vicinity isn't going to kill me. I'm used to it.

[Energy_Aura]

Herding, bad (Agree)...Holding agro, good (Makes sense)...Limiting the holding power of non-herders...BAD

This might be a late look at an over discussed idea...

To me, wouldn’t it work that a stationary Taunter, who has enemies in range, be able to taunt them all and hold their attention???

Example: Doing Striga Shipboard mission…Tank agros 6 of a 10 man group…6 are on him but the spawn is 10…Wouldn’t it be more play friendly to make Taunt a conditional SPAWN power…I.E. tanker taunts the group of 10…Hit or miss is determined, but all of the members of the spawn that are in range are effected…Now the tough part…(At least coding wise)…Only one group can be effected by a taunt from an individual until the numbers of the original taunted group are less than 50%.

So 10 man spawns are in the mission…When the 5th individual in the spawn is killed, then another spawn can be effected by Taunt. This would:

1. Make careless group still get piles of agro (and Tanks trying to herd) but no control except on the first spawn effected by taunt.

2. Allows a Tank to control multiple agros (provided the first group has been reduced to 50%), to prevent an accidental “Oops I agroed another group.”

3. Allows to continue to move steadily from group to group without slowing progress…

4. Remember...Stationary Taunter...

Just my thoughts…

[Vidszhite]

Necropost FTW >.>

[Click_Beetle]

Isn't somebody supposed to say RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE?

[NotIt]

LIVE! LIVE AGAIN MY BRAINCHILD!

[Full_Metal_Geek]

I'm with you on the Stone tank issue. Stoners can take absolutely HUGE amounts of aggro and be fine. This isn't a "Hey look at us we're gods" statement. It is a statement of fact. Before the nerf-herders cry foul remember that a stone tank's ability to fight is severly hampered by granite armor (-recharge, slow, no CJ, no sprint, no SJ or super speed, -damage). Thus I believe the significant survivability of granite is balanced with the combat nerf.

But that means that unless I'm tanking AVs or Giant Monsters I'm not challenged much. I'm only challenged in so far as moving through a mission in a reasonable amount of time goes. But on a team? No problem. Toss in a kinetics toon and I'm golden.

I'd love them to raise the aggro cap based on level. Say one additional mob per level starting with one at level one. This would ramp up pretty quickly in the teens which is when most tanks should have their status protection and basic defenses. This would allow higher level tanks to feel like a tank again being able gather larger amounts of aggro and providing more tanking services for a team. You would still be limited based on the resistance or defense limitations of your particular tank. This would allow a tank to get in over their head and put them on the edge of their seats again.

I miss that. And I never herded for the purposes of just xp gain. I always did it to revel in the churning chaos of combat. I always wanted to be in the middle of every mess taunting mobs and knocking heads.

[Bowfling]

I would suspect part of the reason for the cap was based on the changes made when this came out, before ED. If getting large spawns together is still safe, then it would still be possible to accomplish the same things this change helped to end. But many tanks can not survive massive groups now. If people are finding that a single tank can not control enough of the aggro, they can always add more tanks to the group and divvy up the responsibility.

[Kong_Fuu]

It's the thread that wouldn't die! (http://www.ceyah.org/jubei/~jandrese/threadwouldntdie.jpg)

[Lallendos]

My 40 stone/SS can handle more than 17 enemies of most types. Mayhap, when viewed from a comic bookish kinda world, how couldI realistically keep attention of 17 villains? I like the "by level idea though, and realize that, unless we are to be Tappers (Scrankers?) our role is to hold the attention of the bulk of the enemies our team faces.
I still would like to know why, with 3 rech/3 taunt, I cannot pull aggro from an ivuln tank, yet, even separated by distance, he can pull it from me. This is WITH mudpots on.

The AoE of my taunt is fairly good, but things at the edge seem to lose focus on me at the slightest bit of damage from someone else.
While i'm threadjacking, Why is the animation for taunt plenty long enough for a blaster to die waiting? That part, I REALLY need an answer to.

[Strength_of_1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - this is the AI change to "fix" herding...

[/ QUOTE ]

You know whats sad about statesman responding to this in such a boufant tone with all that he is the master of coh tone an garbage. Don't tell him but maybe he forgot his charecter was a tank. Oh wait wait wait I know what it really is he only nerfed everyone else an left himself at Pre I5 pre ED rules so this way he could get his ego boosted better. Might be a nerf or power trip to compensate? IDK just a crazy world out there where they would rather say hey tank go pretend to do your job an get this loose scattered room together so that we can attack easier. Now its hey tanker go get them 3 guys together an that other group of 4 bring them over here then take a coffee break.

[Strength_of_1]

1 more side note maybe statesman is a defender trapped inside a tanker shell...

[Umber]

Don't ever recall seeing a twice-raised necropost.

[scherherazade]

Then you need to hop into the Comics forum and look at the Alien Symbiote post, I think it's nigh near 6 to 7 Necros old.

I firmly believe that Necro posting is a tell-tale sign of the forthcoming issues immnent rise. I have watched the signs as 8 issue cycles have come and gone now... and always the red-name posts migrate home just before the settling of Dooooooom and the riseing of cheers.

[MrTickle]

wow, who dug up this dinosaur?

[Infinite_Bunnies]

omg

...

ZOMBIE DINOSAURS!!


*runs to the patent office*

[GenericVillain]

OMG WHAT'S WITH ALL THE -REGEN IN THE GAME? CURSE YOU ISSUE 4!!!!1