Black Hole is still broken...

[MrQuizzles]

It has occurred to me that I haven't complained about black hole in a while, so I think I'll bring it up once again in a post dedicated to either getting it fixed or getting it changed completely.

In its current form, Black Hole is a targetted AoE with a short range and an endurance cost of about 30 that phases enemies for a short amount of time.

Here's a list of the ways in which it's just plain broken:

It accepts phase enhancements, but they do nothing. There is no magnitude increase, no duration increase, nothing. As far as I know there is no way to increase the duration of the power and it seems to ignore magnitudes altogether (quite unlike dimension shift from gravity control).

When attempting to phase opponents that are +5 or higher, they merely turn invisible and function as normal (you can hit them and they can hit you). If this was intended, then it's a cruel joke. Wasting 1/3rd of my endurance on absolutely nothing when the power hits and functions as planned just isn't right.

Here's a list of its flaws:
The accuracy is terrible, it must have an accuracy penalty even though it is never mentioned in the power description.
The endurance cost is terrible
The enemies undergo the same animation as petrifying gaze, the hold power from the same set and the two are very easily confused.
No matter what, there is downtime in the phasing which leads to a second alpha strike onto the defender who applied black hole which can be very dangerous. Attempting to reapply black hole while the enemies are phased results in "unaffected".
The whole premise of phasing enemies has a limited use at best, at least make them untargettable or something that will prevent wasted shots and mass confusion throughout your team.

The idea of scrapping the power alltogether and getting a completely new one is quite appealing and has been mentioned many times on these boards. I don't think we've ever come up with something that we've all agreed on. Status resistance, resistance debuff and an endurance regen/heal that works like howling twilight were all popular ideas.

This power was completely ignored during the issue #2 overhaul of Dark Miasma, and it remains ignored until this date (as far as I'm aware). It may have use in PvP, but it's still broken. Please fix this power. Maybe then we can work out whether or not it's remotely useful.

[Robson]

Ditto for Dimension Shift. :D

[NotDoc]

I wish it marked the enemies better. Purple blob looks, well, just like every other Dark Miasma effect. :(

A black force field sphere would work.

Plus the other stuff you mentioned.

[Kalyth]

Yes it does need some help. It was stated by Geko that it and similar powers would be turned into Toggles but that it would be some time before that was done. But havent heard anything else sinse.

[MrQuizzles]

Yeah, that was back before issue #2 was released. It's now issue #3 and we're rather impatiently waiting for issue #4 to hit the test server.

I think the idea of turning it into a toggle is terrible anyway. The last thing dark miasma needs is another endurance-draining toggle.

I think one of the biggest problems is that, with the changes to fear, you can get the same effect with fearsome stare. I've had entire groups of enemies stop attacking us and patiently wait for us to finish with the group we were currently on. The only difference is that your team won't waste any endurance trying to hit phased enemies and FS has an accuracy debuff. So the power really is useless, there's just no point in having it any more.

[Wetodid]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had entire groups of enemies stop attacking us and patiently wait for us to finish with the group we were currently on. The only difference is that your team won't waste any endurance trying to hit phased enemies and FS has an accuracy debuff. So the power really is useless, there's just no point in having it any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen
i never took it, and after reading all the posts about it, i'm glad i didn't

[MrQuizzles]

I'm running out of things to say in order to keep this post's head above water. I mean, seriously, black hole is broken! There's no two ways about it, it's broken. It being useless is another beast entirely and we can deal with that later.

I wish the developers could at least show some interest in the power, which has been broken and useless ever since it was created AFAIK.

Argh! :( Don't worry, Black Hole, I care about you.

[Mantid]

Has anyone tried PMing Geko or Statesman on this?

[MrQuizzles]

Well, Geko doesn't accept PMs and I did PM statesman and gave him a link to this thread.

I would very much like to see a response acknowledging that this power is broken/useless. What they do to it and when they do it is up to them, so we'll just have to see.

[Mantid]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Geko doesn't accept PMs and I did PM statesman and gave him a link to this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least he knows we're here. :eek:

[Psi_Ko]

[ QUOTE ]
and it seems to ignore magnitudes altogether (quite unlike dimension shift from gravity control).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Gravity's also ignores magnitude. It wil snag bosses, lt's and minions. The only thing that skews it is that bosses are harder to hit, so if you don't invest any acc enhances at all in it it might miss the bosses more often. IF you invest Acc again it will snag bosses, lt's and minions.

And to boot, Dimension shift has a longer base duration. :(

An important note I always see left out about the phase out alpha strike. Despite the unaffected message that pops up this does cause agro transfer. Gravity can switch agro to singularity and dark defenders I'd imagine cud switch it over to fluffy.

Phasing enemies still stinks. :(

[Xevon]

I think the devs are going to wait until PvP is out before making any changes. Because there's no resistance to this kind of effect, it has the potential to become very potent in the Arena. It's usefulness in PvE still needs work, but only after they know how to not gimp it in PvP.

[MrQuizzles]

We don't know if there will be any resistance to this kind of effect. Somewhere in there it says that scrapper and tanker toggles are going to get new resistances and whatnot. Phasing could be one of the things they get resistance to. Although I'm not sure how since the phasing powers ignore magnitudes altogether.

[geko]

Black Hole is not broken:

Accuracy is normal at a base of 75%. It does not have an accuracy penalty.

Black Hole is not a Controlling power to be used in every encounter. Like most high level power, it is situational and is very powerful when suddenly faced with more foes than you can handle. It is very potent to remove half of your enemies for 30 seconds when used correctly.
Black hole is a Magnitude based power. That means Enhancements will not increase the duration, but rather the Magnitude. What this translates to is the more Intangibility Enhancements you slot in, the higher rank and level foe you can affect, but the duration is constant.

[PicassoCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Its endurance cost has been reduced in Expansion 4 to 11.25.

[/ QUOTE ]

That will help.

[ QUOTE ]
Black hole is a Magnitude based power. That means Enhancements will not increase the duration, but rather the Magnitude. What this translates to is the more Intangibility Enhancements you slot in, the higher rank and level foe you can affect, but the duration is constant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you make that a little more clear in the power's description, then? We've all been operating under the assumption that intangibility enhancements enhance intangibility duration, not intangibility magnitude. What is the reasoning behind this? Would you be amenable to making these enhancements duration-based instead, if this is how your player base would prefer to use the power?

And on a separate note, prior to the release of Issue #2, you had mentioned the possibility of making Black Hole (and "similar powers," which I believe includes only Dimension Shift) a toggle power. Has this idea been scrapped?

[Jesterman]

[ QUOTE ]
Like most high level power, it is situational and is very powerful when suddenly faced with more foes than you can handle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geko, if you don't mind, could you elaborate on this statement? What do you mean by situational? How often should a situational power be used in your mind? And finally why are the higher powers, particularly with several builds like storm or force field situational whereas other builds contain useful powers most of the way through? Like why are some situational powers/powersets more situational than others?

[Mantid]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you make that a little more clear in the power's description, then? We've all been operating under the assumption that intangibility enhancements enhance intangibility duration, not intangibility magnitude. What is the reasoning behind this? Would you be amenable to making these enhancements duration-based instead, if this is how your player base would prefer to use the power?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its understnadable since the enhancements say "Enhances Intangibility Duration"!

[NotDoc]

Please tell the art department to give Black Hole a different effect, then. If you have even one other Dark Miasma power, it's nearly impossible to tell which mobs are phased out, reducing the power's usefulness immensely.

[FireIron]

[ QUOTE ]
Like most high level power, it is situational and is very powerful when suddenly faced with more foes than you can handle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that clears up that. Black Hole and Dimension Shift are designed to be panic buttons.

Consider that carefully before choosing either of these powers.

[Kong_Fuu]

Uh, isn't that obvious? When else are you going to use the powers? To grief newbies in Atlas who don't understand what 'unaffected' means?

It's sort of a backup incase you have a bad pull.

[Futurias]

[ QUOTE ]
Black Hole is not broken:

Accuracy is normal at a base of 75%. It does not have an accuracy penalty.
Its endurance cost has been reduced in Expansion 4 to 11.25.
Black Hole is not a Controlling power to be used in every encounter. Like most high level power, it is situational and is very powerful when suddenly faced with more foes than you can handle. It is very potent to remove half of your enemies for 30 seconds when used correctly.
Black hole is a Magnitude based power. That means Enhancements will not increase the duration, but rather the Magnitude. What this translates to is the more Intangibility Enhancements you slot in, the higher rank and level foe you can affect, but the duration is constant.

[/ QUOTE ]

What happened to making it into a Toggle too?

[Chrondeath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could you make that a little more clear in the power's description, then? We've all been operating under the assumption that intangibility enhancements enhance intangibility duration, not intangibility magnitude. What is the reasoning behind this? Would you be amenable to making these enhancements duration-based instead, if this is how your player base would prefer to use the power?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its understnadable since the enhancements say "Enhances Intangibility Duration"!

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to mention that it's different from every other magnitude-based effect in the game, AFAIK....

[geko]

Correction. End Cost was not reduced to 11 in Expansion 4. I was mistaken. We are considering this now, but nothing has been changed yet. My apologies for the confusion.

As for making it a toggle power, we looked into it, but it was not technically possible. Since a toggle power basically reapplies an effected every server tic, it would make the target intangible on one tick, but then it could not apply the intangibility on the second tic b/c the target was unaffectable. So making an intangibility power that was a toggle resulted in the targeted phasing in and out every other tic. This does not occur in a power like Phase Shift b/c you are able to affect yourself when shifted.

[City_Hall]

[ QUOTE ]
Since a toggle power basically reapplies an effected every server tic, it would make the target intangible on one tick, but then it could not apply the intangibility on the second tic b/c the target was unaffectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Corinna, this logic is sound, the buff could not be mantained properly.

[Vty_EndlessNight]

The problem still remains tho. If i use this power on a group of tightly packed enemies and it doesn't hit all of them. how am i to know which are intangible and which aren't? because i sure cant tell the difference just by looks. By the time w've figured out which ones aren't intangible to attack them or subdue them by other means the affect has worn off and we're back to the way we were before and no better off.

[digdug_NA]

I have a gravity/kinetics controller with Dimension Shift, and and a Dark/Dark defender without Black Hole (yet). So I thought I'd pipe in for a sec on this topic since the powers are, to my knowledge, identical.

Contrary to popular belief, Dimension Shift is actually pretty useful if used properly. The main thing to keep in mind is that, if you're in a situation where you or your team isn't doing much AE damage, or it's unsafe to do big AE attacks because the opponents are too high level, then it's much safer and easier to handle those opponents one at a time or in small groups then all at once en masse.

To that end, Dimension Shift and Black Hole are extremely efficient at splitting up groups of opponents that are spread apart. For example, if you have three or four opponents in melee and another three or four at long range firing rifles, you can phase out the gunmen and concentrate first on the melee opponents. Because Black Hole and Dimension Shift last so long and recharge quickly, they're very endurance efficient and fairly reliable.


I've found with my grav/kinetics controller that Dimension Shift works quite well with knockback attacks like Repel. If the opponents are all in a tight group, and it's not a good idea to take them all on at once, you can knock some of them far away with Repel then immediately phase them. That leaves half the original group phased and the other half attackable.

Dimension Shift also works well on red or purple opponents even if they're in a tight group because it hits only some of them due to lowered to hit chance. That means you can phase a tight group of reds and about half of them will be phased, the other half attackable. Provided you and your team can tell the difference (which is easy for Dimension Shift), you can usually take out the unphased ones before the phased ones return to normal.

My guess is that, for a Dark/Dark defender, Torrent plus Black Hole has a similar synergy. Use Torrent to knock half a group flying back, then Black Hole the furthest one out. That should phase out most of that group but leave the ones you didn't Torrent unphased. Not having Black Hole yet though, I haven't had the opportunity to try this strategy out.

I should also mention that you can use phased opponents as anchors for toggles like Darkest Night and Enervating Field. Even though the phased anchor himself is phased out and not debuffed, the power itself is there affecting everyone around him. That means that, if you use a phased opponent as an anchor, your teammates can't accidentally kill your anchor! (Woot!)


So I'm not saying everyone run out and respec into Black Hole or Dimension Shift. But depending on how you normally play they can be quite effective, so it's more a matter of perspective on how useful they are. I like Dimension Shift, and I use it on and off almost every session with my controller, so I'm finding it hard to believe Black Hole is as useless as some people claim.

Just my guess though.

[Biostar]

I also don't have the Dark power and it does sound like there are some problems that DO need to be worked out (different visual for example). I do have Dimension Shift and agree with digdug. Though for me I do use it much more when I'm solo than in a group. When in a group it typically only gets used as a panic button or if there are a few close groups and we want to concentrate on only 1 or 2 and not have to worry about a 2nd or 3rd. I really like the fact it has a short recharge time compared to my other group hold.

Vector (Gravity/Kinetics) - Freedom

[Captain_Freak]

another shining example of the devs not knowing how the game works....who codes this thing, Kmart employees?

[Clintonian]

Who writes your posts? Syphilitic monkeys?

More than a few of the powers post-20 for many builds are situational. Like most status effect powers, Black Hole has a to-hit component and lessened effects vs. opponents of higher level or magnitude of resistance. Much like Dim.Shift, it's a resource hog. What's your complaint again?


edit: Yes, they should correct the text on intangibility enhancements so that people don't have to monitor the dev digest to get clarifications.Yes, it's silly for something like this to be just now clarified. However, it's not uncommon for sprawling MMO game systems.

[furiousone]

Whatever man, It's a "situational" power move on. I have a grav/ff controller and he has lots of "situational" powers.

[Retrogression]

The intangibility can't be put on a toggle problem --

What about solving it like this - have make-intangible be able to affect otherwise unaffectable opponents? This would make sense because the power is just doing to them what they've done to themselves anyway. Then you could have toggle black holes and you could put them on phase-shifted enemies too.

[deajai]

I got a kick out of it making Winter Lords see-through. They looked like they were make of ice instead of snow! It didn't do anything to them otherwise, but I had fun playing with it.

I would use it if it was clear who was under it's effect. The fact that higher level things often show the special effect, even though they are not phazed out also makes it even less useful.

[MrQuizzles]

So then what's with the part that simply makes the enemies invisible instead of intangible?

Are we not supposed to be phasing out foes of a largely higher lvl than us? If so, then I really don't see much reason as to why. It's hard enough to hit them and it really doesn't help us defeat them. It would, however, allow us to run the heck away.

[Mantid]

You know what is really strange about that is that you would need to put both Intangability and Acc enhancements into your power to acheive it! :eek:

[FireIron]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a grav/ff controller and he has lots of "situational" powers.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's kind of the defining feature of the grav/ff build. ;)

[kurg_]

[ QUOTE ]
another shining example of the devs not knowing how the game works....who codes this thing, Kmart employees?

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, the devs do a darn good job on this game, and do know how the game works just fine...why not show some respec for these people and their hard work, or is that too much to ask from an ingrateful person as yourself?

As to the Kmart comment, these are the types of comments that will find yourself on the crap list of many people. Just because you have had bad experiences with people that work at certain department stores, or because the stores sell low cost items, does not make their employees of a lower quality than you (and yes, the implication is that Kmart employees are not smart). I have a friend that works at Kmart and is far from stupid, and just because he likes to work with people and in retail does not make him an idiot. Just be careful with making snide remarks like you did.

[Narcissus]

Geko: Thanks for posting.

I agree Blackhole and Dimension Shift are situational skills. The problem lies in that they may be too situational and serve very little purpose in their respective powersets.

I assume that the strength in situational skills is that in the right circumstances they prove stronger than similar powers designed to be used every fight. However if the main purpose of these powers is to be used as a Panic Button to allow a few breather seconds to escape battle, what makes it better than An AoE Sleep/Disorient/or Hold?

Or if the main function of this power is to "weed out" a few of the mobs in a group so you can tackle the ones unphased, why does this function become increasingly weaker/inefficient with each accuracy enhancement you put in the power? Again what makes this power better than a Sleep/Disorient/Hold? These control types are already "panic buttons" and retain efficiency as they also double as reliable forms of offense friendly lockdown each battle.

For Dark Miasma, The skill just becomes redundant as they already have an auto-hit disorient in Howling Twilight that also functions as a recharge debuff and an AoE rez.

For Gravity, Dimension Shift is the most skipped power next to Crush, and most people only skip crush because the aoe version Crushing Field becomes available just a couple of levels later. It remains the only other form of AoE lockdown in the entire set. Take the effects of Illusion's Phantom Army/Spectral Terror, Fire's Flashfires, Earth's Stalagmites/Salt Crystals/Earthquake, Ice's Ice Slick/Frostbite, or Mind's Mass Hypnosis/Telekinesis/Terrify. Would any of those sets ever trade any of those skills for Dimension Shift?

I guess what I am basically trying to say is that between the general consensus here on the boards and the data mining you are able to do, you can see how many people take these skills, how many actually use them, and most importantly how many people respec out of these powers. If there was a sound use for these skills, wouldn't the playerbase have caught on after about a year into release?

[PicassoCat]

[ QUOTE ]
For Dark Miasma, The skill just becomes redundant as they already have an auto-hit disorient in Darkest Night that also functions as a slow and an AoE rez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to note: Darkest Night is neither a slow nor an AoE rez - it is an anchored AoE accuracy/damage debuff. You may be thinking here of Howling Twilight, which is an AoE rez with a slow and disorient component.

However, Black Hole doesn't seem to do anything for me that Fearsome Stare doesn't do more cheaply - namely, make a group of mobs stop attacking. Black Hole has a longer range, and intangibility, but I can't choose when to turn it off; FS has a shorter range, and allows them an attack whenever they're attacked, but I choose whether or not - and in what order - to tackle them. <shrug>

(Edit: Wow. I never thought I'd see a thread on Dark Miasma get the little flame symbol for "hot topic!" Are there that many dark defenders now? Or is it just that those of us who are here are pretty passionate about the powerset?

[Narcissus]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to note: Darkest Night is neither a slow nor an AoE rez - it is an anchored AoE accuracy/damage debuff. You may be thinking here of Howling Twilight, which is an AoE rez with a slow and disorient component.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry the Darkest Night was a leftover from a a sentence I was going to use but scrapped for the Howling Twilight Description. I just forgot to change the power's name. :)

I always use "slow" to describe -recharge effects and "snare" to describe -movement speed effects.

Thanks for the headsup <edits above post>

[Mantid]

Looking over a Dev's first response to this thread, I couldn't help but rant a little (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2381544&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=&vc=#Post2381544). Just though I'd share the love! :p

[CuppaKitten]

Geko,

If one wished to implement this power as a toggle, would it be possible to change the way in which the power actually effects the foes? For example, while the toggle is activate foes would gain 100% resistance to all forms of damage, would be immune to knock down/back, and would have protection from mez powers, however their damage output would be reduced to zero. That would more or less emulate intangibility but would allow the server to reapply the buff/debuff ever server tick.

-Just a thought

-P.S: For Dimension Shift, do enhancers cause increased duration, or an increased +MAG to the intangibility?

-Thx

[MindmasterZero]

Black Hole isnt even as good a panic button as fearsome stare...

[Hanged_Man]

I disagree, MMZ. FS can get the Dark defender killed if the [censored] really hits the fan. The mobs get to snap a shot off before the debuff, and that can be it for the defender. Which usually means a TPK. But Black Hole can, if used right, give you time to regroup without actually dieing.

[MindmasterZero]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, MMZ. FS can get the Dark defender killed if the [censored] really hits the fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I havent found that to be the case. They instantly go feared and cower. I can reapply fear, and they stay feared, with no counterattack. I control absurd spawns with this power alone. Situational powers like black hole should be many times more powerful than every fight powers like fearsome stare. This isnt the case. Apparently situational just means "sucky, last resort, need something to throw because nothing else is recharged".

[Hanged_Man]

That depends on where the mobs are in the recharge cycle when you cast Fearsome Stare. If they have a power cycled and ready to use, they use it. Sometimes, you get lucky when you use FS to get outta dodge. Sometimes you don't. IMO, Black Hole is much safer.

YMMV.

[Climhazzard]

I dont have a dark defender but id still like to post here from my experience on this power.

It can be effective but the fact that it only lasts 30 seconds means that if the team cant kill the first group fast enough then whatever group dimension shift was thrown on will come out with a vengeance for the dark defender and there is nothing you can do about it.

There should be imo some way to enhance the duration of this power.

[EvGen_88]

Thanks for the input Geko, could you explain this?
[ QUOTE ]
It accepts phase enhancements, but they do nothing. There is no magnitude increase, no duration increase, nothing. As far as I know there is no way to increase the duration of the power and it seems to ignore magnitudes altogether (quite unlike dimension shift from gravity control).

[/ QUOTE ]

When you said:
[ QUOTE ]
That means Enhancements will not increase the duration, but rather the Magnitude. What this translates to is the more Intangibility Enhancements you slot in, the higher rank and level foe you can affect, but the duration is constant.

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems the magnitude would be obvious, all the minions phased, the bosses not (sounds pretty usefull, 30 seconds to pound an AV with all the minions phased?)
And about the accuracy, is it possible that accuracy enhancements aren't working in the power, or do many villains have phase resistance?

[Wintervoid]

I am debating on getting Black Hole. I do like the panic button feature, but it seems like I can get that in fearsome stare, which I already have.

How about this for a change to Black Hole:

When mobs phase back in, aggro is wiped. This does 2 things. First, it prevents the Alpha strike on the caster of BH, and second, it allows for a clean retreat (if everyone is out of aggro range).

One abuse I could see w/ this is just using BH to bypass content. I do not know how big of an issue that would be considering that there are ways to bypass content as is.

Anyway, what do you think?

[Dawnslayer]

Wow necropost.

Anyway this is one of those powers that needs to be totally rewritten. Why phase? What it should do, is be a targeted AoE/Slow/DoT. Intangibility? What a joke.

[Teklord]

To be honest Quizzles original complaint is valid. For goodness sake enhancing the mag but not duration yet named intangible duration enhancements is just insane. Geko's defenses of this power are completely out of this world, they sound quite defensive.

Except in a "Everybody run" situation I can't see black-hole having use. Dimension shift is similiar but I believe has more love as it is in an actual control set.

Black-hole should be eliminated. Necro-post or not.

[Kalyth]

One thing that I can see that would make Black Hole atleast somewhat useful for me would be If it was Single Target. Example.....
"Focus on the minions I will Blackhole the boss."

Atleast then you could get some use out of the power. I Personally see use for Detention field (Force Field's single target Foe Intangible power).

[Teklord]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I can see that would make Black Hole atleast somewhat useful for me would be If it was Single Target. Example.....
"Focus on the minions I will Blackhole the boss."

Atleast then you could get some use out of the power. I Personally see use for Detention field (Force Field's single target Foe Intangible power).

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. A single target version with decent ACC would be good. The group nature of black-hole is a negative.

[Helmkat]

For a power named "Black hole" it certainly does not do anything like I would think.

It would be cool if it operated kind of like a "reverse" freezing rain.

Imagine you target it like freezing rain, then when you click, it starts dragging foes in its range toward its center damaging the foes as it pulls them in, add - range and -recharge for the duration of the effect.

Center on your tank for added Tanker joy

that might be fun!

would be interesting pvp as well...

The current power for me is a panic button that confuses the hell out of everyone when I use it.

[InfernalNight]

Heh, seems like calling a power "situational" is the kiss of death.

[Pyrochimp]

[ QUOTE ]
For a power named "Black hole" it certainly does not do anything like I would think.

It would be cool if it operated kind of like a "reverse" freezing rain.

Imagine you target it like freezing rain, then when you click, it starts dragging foes in its range toward its center damaging the foes as it pulls them in, add - range and -recharge for the duration of the effect.

Center on your tank for added Tanker joy

that might be fun!

would be interesting pvp as well...

The current power for me is a panic button that confuses the hell out of everyone when I use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second. Probably be hard to code, since as far as I know there's no powers that suck you to one point, but well too bad devs. Think how fun that would be in PvP!

[MrQuizzles]

I swear, this is my most popular thread ever.

Oh yeah, and I'll add that it was nerfed since I first posted this thread. The duration was halved.

I really can't think of a more counterproductive power to use in PvP. I can phase a team's healer- and the rest of their team- for a whole seven seconds!

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
I swear, this is my most popular thread ever.

Oh yeah, and I'll add that it was nerfed since I first posted this thread. The duration was halved.

I really can't think of a more counterproductive power to use in PvP. I can phase a team's healer- and the rest of their team- for a whole seven seconds!

[/ QUOTE ]

And if they have combat jumping, they can run around at will.

[_dEOS_]

[ QUOTE ]

Second. Probably be hard to code, since as far as I know there's no powers that suck you to one point, but well too bad devs. Think how fun that would be in PvP!

[/ QUOTE ]

There are powers that push mobs around. I don't how that is different from pulling. It's just the opposite vector.

And the synergy with powers like *hum* Burn would be amazing. Black Hole of Fire Doom!

Imagine that with Freezing Rain? Mobs trying to run away but being pulled to the middle of it.

[_dEOS_]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, seems like calling a power "situational" is the kiss of death.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me LOL IRL :)

The sad thing is that was true beginning of 2005 and it's still true one year later. They copiously nerfed overpowered ATs but did nothing to take a look at unloved powers.

[siegeszug]

So, does this mean Sonic Cage is also an intangibility magnitude power?

[MrQuizzles]

Indeed, they all are.

I thought of a nifty little idea for Black Hole, kind of a mix between Fold Space and Wormhole.

It's a drop power with a relatively short targetting range (maybe 50 feet). You select the drop area and it teleports all the enemies around it to the spot. Add a mag 1 disorient to it, and we're dandy.

It'd make a useful anti-scatter power or a very interesting opener, certainly a valuable enemy-positioning tool.

I know I'd use it. Even if it's situational, it'd sure make one heckuva novelty power.

Edit: Changed the title to reflect current information.

[Arinara]

I liked the PBAoE +End thing, myself.
Or that one thing the Carnies get. What was it? Mask of Something. -Acc, -Dam, -Regen, -Recovery? Either a reeeeaaaaly long duration click, or a toggle? Whatever it was, it was absolutely crippling.
That'd be fun.


Oh, and if the devs change Black Hole, I'd like to request that they leave Dimension Shift alone. Or better, buff the thing so that the PvP duration is long enough for me to actually run away with :)

[DarZindel]

Serious thread-ro-nancy here. :OP
In all seriousness though my RL GF plays a Dark/Dark almost exclusively, yes i'm lucky, and Black Hole is the one power that she was just completly turned off by. So much so that as a casual gamer we went through the friggin respec trial to take something else.
Let me put it this way, she spends about 2-3 hours a week or every other playing, and hated the power so much she was willing to use her limited time to get rid of the power and rack up some debt with the trial (we had a bad team).

[SteelOnyx]

In PvP can people use Break Frees to get out of Black Hole?

[MrQuizzles]

No

[_Ilr_]

Here's my Idea: Targeted AoE Range-Debuff ...Like hurricane, but without the knocking-stuff-around part.
Only thing I believe fits the premise of a Black Hole... IE: energy can't escape it

[Comfort]

I'd like to quote Statesman's actual response to me as to why powers like this haven't been fixed after all this time:

"If a defender feels less effective than a scrapper, then scrappers must be nerfed."

See, that power is working perfectly, that's why they haven't changed it since beta. It's all the other powers in the game which must be nerfed until they are the same. THOSE powers are clearly TOO powerful. Black Hole is working as intended.

[Q_Arkhan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to quote Statesman's actual response to me as to why powers like this haven't been fixed after all this time:

"If a defender feels less effective than a scrapper, then scrappers must be nerfed."

See, that power is working perfectly, that's why they haven't changed it since beta. It's all the other powers in the game which must be nerfed until they are the same. THOSE powers are clearly TOO powerful. Black Hole is working as intended.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure Statesman was being sarcastic.

The key word is "feeling"

The devs can't control how you Feel (weak or strong).

They can only control the powers themselves.

I'm pretty sure he was mocking you.

[Chazzmatazz]

This power is definitely in need of being re-conceptualized completley. Phase other is probably the least useful "control" power available. Look at the effects comparison.

Hold- enemy is offensively and mobility negated, but is still defeatable during the duration. Base durations tend to be moderate.

Sleep- enemy is offensively and mobility negated, but ceases to be controlled by any non-regen health change (up or down). Base duration is very long.

Disorient- enemy is offensively negated, but is not immobilized (though movement is random). Enemy is defeatable during this time. Base duration is moderate.

Immobilize- enemy is not affected offensively, but cannot move (except by TP). They are defeatable during this time. Base duration is long.

Confuse- enemy's offense is applied vs. other enemy units (generating slightly less xp per unit defeated by such offensive output, but actually yielding greater xp/hour)and buffs applied to friendly units. Unit is defeatable during this time. Base duration is long.

Fear- Unit is offensively neutralized and usually immobilized, unless damaged at which point the unit may make one retaliatory attack. Unit may be defeated during this duration. Base duration is long/very long.

Slow (i.e. -rech). Enemy unit's attack rate is decreased (mitigating incoming damage substantially). Movement speed is usually reduced as well, which can also have a damage mitigating effect (primarily enemy melee units vs. friendly ranged units). Units may be defeated during this time. Base duration is very long.

All of the above have the shared (and obviously desirable) trait of allowing the enemy to be defeated while under the status effect (sleep, only with one-shots). Also they can all have enhanced duration.

Now look at Black Hole's traits:
Enemy offensively negated- good.
Enemy is undefeatable- ridiculously bad and contrary to the whole point of the game.
Short UNENHANCEABLE duration.- effectively broken.

The only reason I can think of NOT to alter/buff Black Hole is that they would then probably nerf other powers in the set in order to maintain balance.

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to quote Statesman's actual response to me as to why powers like this haven't been fixed after all this time:

"If a defender feels less effective than a scrapper, then scrappers must be nerfed."

See, that power is working perfectly, that's why they haven't changed it since beta. It's all the other powers in the game which must be nerfed until they are the same. THOSE powers are clearly TOO powerful. Black Hole is working as intended.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly sure Statesman was being sarcastic.

The key word is "feeling"

The devs can't control how you Feel (weak or strong).

They can only control the powers themselves.

I'm pretty sure he was mocking you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know whenever I say things like that, I'm mocking someone.

But I'm not Statesman. Who knows what sinister plots lurk behind his...not very sinister face?

[FlashDemon]

[ QUOTE ]
For a power named "Black hole" it certainly does not do anything like I would think.

It would be cool if it operated kind of like a "reverse" freezing rain.

Imagine you target it like freezing rain, then when you click, it starts dragging foes in its range toward its center damaging the foes as it pulls them in, add - range and -recharge for the duration of the effect.

Center on your tank for added Tanker joy

that might be fun!

would be interesting pvp as well...

The current power for me is a panic button that confuses the hell out of everyone when I use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, that seems freakin' awesome. Kinda like an anti-telekinesis. Instead of pushing the mobs away, it pulls them toward where you placed it. And I like the -recharge and -range effect, sort of like actually getting sucked into a black hole (who woulda thought?). Teams would totally love that. I mean, you use it on a mob and it really benefits any AoE users. Debuffs and all. This is an awesome idea...forgive me for my childish ooo-I-just-got-tickle-me-elmo behavior :p

[_Darkblade]

That's actually what I was thinking of in regards to it too. A targetted AoE, like tar patch, that pulls foes within a certain radius towards its center and maybe dealing some type of minor crushing damage. But as it is, it's a completely worthless power that in reality doesnt do anything except attract a large amount of aggro to you once you use it. It really needs to be reworked.

[Great_Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, seems like calling a power "situational" is the kiss of death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like? A "situational" power, by definition, is a power that is of NO help some of the time.

I'd rather take powers I can use in most any situation, Thanks. :)