Kheldians are not archetypes [Archive]

rehdjac

11-10-2004, 09:21 AM

I was pretty excited when they announced a couple of epic Archetypes for the game. I figured they would probably be a great oprotunity to play some of the more powerful heroes I designed. Me and mine spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what they would be. Then I read Statesman's description.

Kheldians: Warshades and Peacebringers.

So, uhm. These aren't archetypes, these are straight up classes. An archetype is a general model or pattern from which all similar things are copied or based. The current five archetypes, ARE indeed archetypes. You can fill voluminous lists with comic heroes that fit Balster, Tank, Scrapper, Defender, Controller. More than that the five current archetypes model their comic counterparts pretty well. (Except of course Tanks, all they do is serve a nerd game purpose, they are nothing like the comics, but 4 out of 5 is pretty good!)

Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.

I was hoping for actual missing comic book archetypes, maybe along the lines of Powerhouse (big guys who can also do damage), Mastermind (Lex, Joker, etc... smart guys the type everyone has to make scrappers or controllers now) and Sentinel (maybe along the lines of Defender but with melee damage).

Nope, Warshades. Peacebringers.

"You know like those comic book staples, uhm... You know the ones, there's that guy."

"Which one do you mean? There's SO many that have the integral traits of coming from an alien planet and drawing power from the people in their proximity. I just don't know where to begin."

And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.

Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.

I suppose this wouldn't have been such a big issue if Cryptic hadn't sworn up and down, left and right, that this game would never, ever have the pigeon holed classes of other games. Well, then again they said they wouldn't have dance emotes and dance clubs either so... Lame. :(

All that being said, we don't know much about these things so I can't give up hope yet. Cryptic has surprised me in the past, maybe they will here too. I sure hope so!

Invoker

11-10-2004, 09:36 AM

Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.

Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics

But until the new powersets are reviled it could swing both ways. You might be right. Only the powers will tell.

ObserverEye

11-10-2004, 09:55 AM

Honestly rehdjac, I think it is still a little to soon to be making such assumptions. Albeit well thought out and worded.

Really though, until the archtypes are uploaded to the testserver will we all be able get an idea of what they are capable of exactly.

I say give them (DEVs) the benefit of the doubt.

rehdjac

11-10-2004, 09:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly rehdjac, I think it is still a little to soon to be making such assumptions. Albeit well thought out and worded.

Really though, until the archtypes are uploaded to the testserver will we all be able get an idea of what they are capable of exactly.

I say give them (DEVs) the benefit of the doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeha that's pretty much the concession of my last paragraph. Can't say I'm overly optimistic, but I'm rooting for them not against.

Still, it bears mention.

rehdjac

11-10-2004, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.

Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that could be the case but consider: Statesman has said he's disappointed with the Tank archetype specifically because it doesn't model the comics like archetypes are supposed to do. Yes, Tanks have value in a group (debateable depending on who you ask), but they are not following the comic book model of the game and are therefore fundamentally flawed.

Now Cryptic introduces two "archetypes" that will again have no genre specific basis when there is already archetypes in game that need themeatic help (Tanks) and archetypes that should be in game (examples I gave, maybe Powerhouse, Mastermind etc...) but aren't.

I would much rather see time spent on fixing the existing archetype / genre discrepency with Tanks or creating new archetypes actually based on theme, than push the number of playable styles that fail to mimic comics to 3 of 7.

I guess we'll see.

rehdjac

11-10-2004, 07:00 PM

See like I said, Cryptic surprises me. As poor as I think this attempt at adding new archetypes is, these Epic Power Pools sound great.

As long as they keep them low key in power (think Stealth and Flurry not Haste and Provoke) they will be golden and a welcome boon for those in their 40s. Way cool.

A_Fire_Inside

11-10-2004, 08:10 PM

wow, you have no idea what the new AT"s are all about yet except one is probably more on defensive side and one on offensive side. So why trash something you have no idea about? I'm excited for both AT's and im racing to get my main to lvl 50 just so i can play as one of the new AT's. i KNOW that no matter what they consist of that i will love these AT's just based on how well the DEV's have designe dthe game so far.

rehdjac

11-10-2004, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you have no idea what the new AT"s are all about yet except one is probably more on defensive side and one on offensive side. So why trash something you have no idea about? I'm excited for both AT's and im racing to get my main to lvl 50 just so i can play as one of the new AT's. i KNOW that no matter what they consist of that i will love these AT's just based on how well the DEV's have designe dthe game so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't "trash" them, I said they weren't archetypes, and gave well thought out reasons why.

I mentioned that there are a number of archetypes common to the genre and having the requisite power level to be considered "epic" that could have been developed instead.

I also allowed for the fact that right now we have imperfect information.

TheShifty

11-11-2004, 07:56 AM

Blaster,scrapper,defender,controller,tanker. These are 5 generic archetypes found in comic books. The word archetype was pretty well applied here, and it avoids the use of the word "class."

However, Statesman wanted to add 2 more classes, but really, things hint that they're blending roles of pre-existing archetypes so that they can't really live up to the word "Archetype" on their own. However, the word "Archetype" has become the equivalent word for the "Class" you choose at character creation.

He could say, magic, science, natural, tech, mutation...Kheldian. That doesn't fit either, and origins don't really affect powers in this game. Archetype is the word that fits best.

The key descriptive part of epic AT is "epic". In the interviews, Statesman zeroed in on the word "epic" to have to do with story. As well as being powerful in epic proportions, these new classes/epic ATs will be tied into the story as they are made available. And as you can see from the articles on the main page. The Kheldians are now tied directly into the story.

So when you have 5 generic archetypes, and 5 origins. When you add a epic class, what do you call it? Just say class and people will respond, "Come again? Is that just another word for Alien?" It's a little less confusing this way. He uses the word archetype to convey to the CoH player that this will determine what powers are being made available to the player.

SpongeCake

11-11-2004, 07:58 AM

No, Kheldians aren't Archetypes, they're Epic Archetypes.

Just as Epic Power Pools are different from normal power pools, Epic ATs are different from normal ATs.

Quason

11-11-2004, 07:59 AM

Isn't this just arguing semantics? What difference does it really make if we call them archetypes or classes?

Tal_N

11-11-2004, 09:03 AM

Alien is the origin, as normal. The Peacebringer or Warshade is simply the AT itself. They define how they are played. Statesman said that their endurance is based on their team, thus its simple to conclude that the Peacebringers (who belive in voluntary merging) draw endurance from their team and thus are team based. The Warshade (who belive in taking over bodies) would naturally draw their endurance from everyone thus making them good for soloing.

The difference is how they are used, I understand how you dislike how these ATs aren't generically titled but don't assume that this means you have your hero pigeon holed into a role. Just because you have a Warbringer AT doesn't mean you HAVE to be a certain way. Just as you don't HAVE to be a Keldarian at all.

Besides, you're not supposed to be stealing copyrighted ideas for your characters. Its against the EULA infact.

Here's some food for thought though for the rest of you. Does it means you have an evil character if they're a Warshade? Not really. Consider for a moment there are two sides to this story, perhaps the warshades are a breed of Keldarian who need to merge with a body to survive, simple morality then conflicts with the Peacebringers who don't think merging of any kind is right. They naturally don't need to merge or accept that they'll die if they don't.

Is is wrong to want to live? Its indeed a grey line so just because you're a warshade doesn't mean you're an Anti-hero or a villain... maybe you just didn't want to die.

TheShifty

11-11-2004, 12:22 PM

Kheldian endurance is drawn from others? When did Statesman make that comment? Can ya give a link? Not calling you a liar, I just wanna see the exact wording before I relay the info to my friends.

TheShifty

11-11-2004, 12:23 PM

Kheldian endurance is drawn from others? When did Statesman make that comment? Can ya give a link?

Mei_Zhong

11-11-2004, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Alien is the origin, as normal. The Peacebringer or Warshade is simply the AT itself. They define how they are played. Statesman said that their endurance is based on their team, thus its simple to conclude that the Peacebringers (who belive in voluntary merging) draw endurance from their team and thus are team based. The Warshade (who belive in taking over bodies) would naturally draw their endurance from everyone thus making them good for soloing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect the Kheldans will still get standard origins, either based on "this is what your character was before the alien Exalted her" or "I want to make myself and my buddy in my head stronger.. I think I will train/summon/expose myself to radiation". This way they won't have to make a whole new origin set of enhancers just for this small group.

Ultra_Violence

11-11-2004, 03:26 PM

Some of the best powers in the game don't exist in comics. Ever see a "Hero" cause Radiation Infection to slow villian down? I mean that is pretty hard core. While there may be villians that do that I don't think there are any heros.

Being true to comics is good but being a good game is the most important thing.

We will see what they are like when released. What I would hope for rather than origin/AT issues is that they actually LOOK different. Everyone knows aliens from the same planet don't always look alike LOL. Having some cool new faces/bodies would be a nice touch.

Statesman_NA

11-11-2004, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.

Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.

Capca

11-11-2004, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this paragraph pretty much hits it on the head. I've run superhero RPG for some time now. Usually I get really good backgrounds, were people think of interesting ways their characters became heroes. But every once in a while you get the guy who's only explaination for his character is he's Kryptonian, former S.H.I.E.L.D, or just a mutant (with no other backstory). That to me is what Kheldains are in COH. How did you get your powers? Your a Kheldian. Why are you here? Same reason the other Kheldians are. What are your general goals? Same as the other Peacebringers.

Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around. Even if the hero's entire race has the same powers as him, he's usually the only one hanging around (or one of a very small number). This is done for a very good reason. Superman, Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter are all good examples. Each of them would somehow be lessened if a whole bunch of Kryptonians, Thanagarians, or Martians showed up and all became heroes. That's pretty much why I have no intention of playing one.

The sad thing is, until now, we never needed epics to be part of COH lore. If you take some time to look through hero bios it won't take long to find someone who is a "rogue clockwork", "escaped COT victim", "runaway Crey experiment", or some other COH inspired origin. If Kheldians were introduced with out a specific AT, within a day you would find people with "I'm a Kheldian" type of origins anyway.

If Cryptic wants to start telling us when we are allowed to make backgrounds that are part of extisting factions and lore within COH I suppose I'll adapt, but I'm not deleting my Freedom Corps character even if that becomes an EAT.

DireNerd

11-11-2004, 07:54 PM

It's creative. Very creative.

It's not like anything I've seen before.

It's cooler than what I expected ETA's to be (I like Green Arrow and all, but a WHOLE archetype dedicated to him and Hawkeye?)

It's not a reward for everyone who "worked" hard to become level 50, it's a reward for people who have allowed themselves to become so immersed in the mythology. And I for one feel well rewarded already.

EvGen_88

11-11-2004, 08:06 PM

I think it's not limiting at all to have your origin partially determined. There is still the reasons why your characters parts became merged, why the particular Kheldian cam to Paragon. Characters linked to the CoH univers will be more fun to role play. I have an Eidolon, and a former Rikti support droid character, because of that the things happening in the game are more relevent to me. If I were to make a Neprunian Klazon interigator (Made it up) the chances of anyone else or the game itself actually meaning anything to my character are nil.

Projection

11-11-2004, 08:18 PM

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As long as they keep them low key in power (think Stealth and Flurry not Haste and Provoke) they will be golden and a welcome boon for those in their 40s. Way cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Low key" Better not be. Wouldnt be too epic.

Alloric

11-11-2004, 08:59 PM

I'm w/EvGen_88 on this one. Just because you're a Kheldian character does *not* mean that you're limited to "only be an alien" (unless, of course, you limit yourself). People playing *any* origin can create a background, the game is (happily) open-ended. Sure, I've got my Paragon Protector look-a-like, but his story *builds* on the one that CoH provides. Using your imagination, success, fellowship and enjoyability are, IMO, the things that MMO's are built on.

Mattman

11-11-2004, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Green Lantern Corp

GladDog

11-11-2004, 09:24 PM

I've been following this Epic AT thing for a while, reading interviews, etc.

While this includes a bit of speculation, this is what I have been able to piece together so far....

There are going to be 16 primary & 16 secondary power sets. It looks like Warspites are going to be scranker types & peacebringers are going to be blastdeftrollers. However, you pick the primary & secondary sets, so you don't have to follow the strict definition of the main ATs. If you pick a damage set as a primary, you have to pick a defense/buff/control set for your secondary. & vice versa. This means that you can build what ever you want. For example, you can take whatever passes for Fire Control as a primary & the pseudo fire blast as a secondary. Or you can make an Invul/Energy Blast guy. & so on. Now, I may not be describing the power sets exactly, but this is the gist of what the new Epics are all about. You get to make a character that can be as unique or mainstream as you want, but with new powers & power sets.

Little mention has been made of power pools, but it seems that there are Epic specific power pools as well that are different from the Epic power pools that main ATs get.

Also, they have been very quiet on the winged AT, which may indicate we won't see wings in issue 3.

Capca

11-11-2004, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Green Lantern Corp

[/ QUOTE ]
And how many active Green Lanterns hang out on Earth?

[ QUOTE ]

There are going to be 16 primary & 16 secondary power sets. It looks like Warspites are going to be scranker types & peacebringers are going to be blastdeftrollers. However, you pick the primary & secondary sets, so you don't have to follow the strict definition of the main ATs. If you pick a damage set as a primary, you have to pick a defense/buff/control set for your secondary. & vice versa. This means that you can build what ever you want. For example, you can take whatever passes for Fire Control as a primary & the pseudo fire blast as a secondary. Or you can make an Invul/Energy Blast guy. & so on. Now, I may not be describing the power sets exactly, but this is the gist of what the new Epics are all about. You get to make a character that can be as unique or mainstream as you want, but with new powers & power sets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Woa, Statesman said there are 16 primary and 16 secondary powers, not powersets. From the sounds of it, each EAT as one primary and and one secondary to choose from, but I'll admit, that's only speculation on my part.

gamerthulhu

11-11-2004, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Green Lantern Corp

[/ QUOTE ]

OOOOHHHH!!!!!!

Seriously though, that is a surprisingly good point for something so succint. It is well known that Statesman is a fan of DC comics. Lets see what "Groupings" of characters we can find with same/similar powers (not just from DC).

Green Latern Corps
Speed Force users
Kryptonians
Gamma powered beings (a la Hulk)
Martians (be they Jonn Jonzz, or white)
Angels
and these are just off the top of my head. I'm sure you can add your own.

The point is, are all Gamma powered characters the same? How about all speed force users? Kryptonians? No they are not. Because a character is not wholly defined by his or her powers. Hell, I'd say not even mostly. The Hulk is AMAZINGLY different from Doc Samson. Parallax and Kyle Raynard are nothing alike. Zoom does things The Flash would never even consider, and vice versa. Making a character that is part of a defined group is TOTALLY part of comics. I am glad we are getting this as an option. Personally, I'm not sure why so many people are surprised. Statesman said a long time ago that the EATs are like Kryptonians. What did you think he meant by that anyway?

Marlowe_Faustus

11-11-2004, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Green Latern Corps
Speed Force users
Kryptonians
Gamma powered beings (a la Hulk)
Martians (be they Jonn Jonzz, or white)
Angels
and these are just off the top of my head. I'm sure you can add your own.

The point is, are all Gamma powered characters the same? How about all speed force users? Kryptonians? No they are not. Because a character is not wholly defined by his or her powers. Hell, I'd say not even mostly. The Hulk is AMAZINGLY different from Doc Samson. Parallax and Kyle Raynard are nothing alike. Zoom does things The Flash would never even consider, and vice versa. Making a character that is part of a defined group is TOTALLY part of comics. I am glad we are getting this as an option. Personally, I'm not sure why so many people are surprised. Statesman said a long time ago that the EATs are like Kryptonians. What did you think he meant by that anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else read the Justice League A? story line from 2 or so years ago? Some badass dude got a mentalist to remove all memory of the Justice League of America. He then finally cracked through the badass’s defences and tried to make everyone remember again but only manage to make them remember Justice League A. Produced all sorts of neat Justice Leagues, some more closely linked then others.

Justice League Arkam
Justice League Alien
Justice League Amazon (one of the more closely connected ones)
Justice League Atlantean (again closely connected characters)
I think that might have been it but it was a really cool idea imo.

What about the bat team. I mean they bleed through each others books, you don't get much more closely knit then that and when you get down to it they are all pretty similar in what their "powers" are and what their mo is but would you say they are all carbon copies? Tim Drake is nothing like Dick Grason (One being the 3rd and 5th/current Robin and the other being the 2nd Robin).

_Ilr_

11-11-2004, 11:20 PM

Ouch.
Crap.

Reading this thread just put a kink in my intelligence and lowered it atleast 30 points. Stop living up to the over-critical Comic no-lifer Fanboy Otuku whatever thing that probably lives in a basement --Archetype or Stereotype, or whatever.... or atleast post it in the culture forum.

Gryphon_Cyrus

11-11-2004, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this paragraph pretty much hits it on the head. I've run superhero RPG for some time now. Usually I get really good backgrounds, were people think of interesting ways their characters became heroes. But every once in a while you get the guy who's only explaination for his character is he's Kryptonian, former S.H.I.E.L.D, or just a mutant (with no other backstory). That to me is what Kheldains are in COH. How did you get your powers? Your a Kheldian. Why are you here? Same reason the other Kheldians are. What are your general goals? Same as the other Peacebringers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you think no one is creative enough come up with something more indepth than your statement. The only reason why anyone would be forced into doing something like that is if the Kheldians were some sort of hive mind like the Borg. (This is not what I think the case is.) I can actually think up a slightly unique background for a Kheldian.

Q: How did you get your powers?

A: I am Kheldian, however, I'm kind of young by my race's standards so I'm not very experienced yet.

Q: Why are you here?
A: I don't know about the others, but I'm here for the adventure. Actually, I don't think they even know that I followed them here, to be perfectly honest.

Q: What are your general goals?
A: I'm SUPPOSED to be guarding against the Nictus on our home world. But they haven't attacked there in years. The front lines is where the excitement is. And besides, I want to learn more about your the cultures of your people.

I could go on from there, but you get the idea. Just because someone is of a given race doesn't mean they can't have a deeper background. Heck, depending on how the powers work, you could come up with a back story about how your powers are actually similar to the Kheldians without actually being Kheldian. All this really does is offer a jumping off point for you to build your own story into the world.

Ravenn

11-12-2004, 12:17 AM

Its true that the Kheldians are aliens.. but the body they inhabit is not. Remember the Paragon Times thing? They come to earth in energy base, found they could merge with humans, and benefit from each party.

So you could have a Natural Origin character who has joined with a Kheldian. A mutant could have joined with a Kheldian. A technician could create armor and fire power with the help of a smart Kheldian. etc. etc.

Just because the power used is alien doesn't change the fact that the body is human or mutant or whatever. Remember that.

And everyone knows there are those unique, uber powerful heroes/villains out there that just doesn't fit the mold as a tank or scrapper .. so on. *Shrug* Think about it like this:

Lets estimate 200,000 + people play CoH.
Now about.. 500 of those are level 50 (There was some previous post a long time ago, like before Update 2, where someone got statesman to do a better estimate ratio then this. )
Now that'll mean that the majority of heroes are your usual, common base type heroes.. Then there will be that special bred of heroes! Not uncommon, I find it rather cool. Then there will be more and more eAT's added, giving a nice mixture of unique, grand powerful beings.

gamerthulhu

11-12-2004, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its true that the Kheldians are aliens.. but the body they inhabit is not. Remember the Paragon Times thing? They come to earth in energy base, found they could merge with humans, and benefit from each party.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me, or does anyone else suspect that this is the "Shapeshifting" that statesman keep alluding to? Basically, I suspect that the Epic character is linked to your lvl50, and you can switch back and forth. wouldn't that be NIFTY (assuming it had barriers in there to keep it from being horribly broken...)?

Ravenn

11-12-2004, 12:31 AM

Not saying that wouldn't be rather awesome. But I sadly doubt it. It'll probably some sort of cool shape shifting skill in one of th epower sets in the arch types. . .Though he did mention that it 'wasn't like we thought it was'.. ..So maaybeee..

Cuppa_Lux

11-12-2004, 01:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.

Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you know what you're referring to much better than I, but I gotta say, if they're so unique why do the Warshade sound like an echo of the Goa'uld?

Mei_Zhong

11-12-2004, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously you know what you're referring to much better than I, but I gotta say, if they're so unique why do the Warshade sound like an echo of the Goa'uld?

[/ QUOTE ]

because you need to read more scifi?

NarfMann

11-12-2004, 01:43 AM

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These aren't archetypes

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How do you know that Kheldians can't be largely defined by the classifications of "Warshades" and "Peacebringers?"

If you know this, It seems you know much more about Kheldian culture than has been stated on this website. Who's your source? Spill it! Don't make me torture you for the information.
:D

MeanNVicious

11-12-2004, 02:54 AM

the city of heroes mythology is exceedingly similar to if not parallel'ed to the Palladium Books role-playing game called Scraypers

Aliana Blue

11-12-2004, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Green Lantern Corp

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And how many active Green Lanterns hang out on Earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

At what time? I saw more green lanterns during the Crisis episodes than the previous year put together. Remember, the EATs are here because something is about to hit our local fan...

SimoneP_NA

11-12-2004, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Except of course Tanks, all they do is serve a nerd game purpose, they are nothing like the comics, but 4 out of 5 is pretty good!)

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Think again...
The Thing=Tanker
The Hulk=Tanker
She Hulk=Tanker
Wonder Woman=Tanker
Wonder Man=Tanker
and the list goes on, and on, and on...

Their main is the ability to resist damage, then they can hit hard. Sounds tanker to me...sure, in the game you cannot lift a plane with your left hand, but having that would need to have the same on the other side, and it could be impossible for a blaster or a controller to fight the Juggernaut(Tanker) or the Wrecking Crew(Tankers). But, after all, they're part of comic books. This is a game, it must be different. Even in the comic the same character is having different powers depending from the writer. The Hulk has passed from being totally invulnerable to be tough with an unheartly regeneration power(the Pantheon saga). And this just because the writer decided so. They made Spider-man beat Firelord, just because it was his comic book. Firelord, you know? Herald of Galactus, used to soar through the galaxy, resist the heat of a sun, fighting almost equal to the Silver Surfer...beaten by Spider-man? :eek:
They have reduced the extent of what Super Strenght means, just because the game couldn't works with people like Gladiator who can lift a skyscraper. This doesn't means that the tanker is not a good comic book archetype.

[ QUOTE ]
Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. They cannot be just the origin. "Alien" could be an origin. Keldhans could not be an origin, too narrow, unless the merging with a Keldhan doesn't result in a random alteration of the human host. And it's not. But you will have to choose between 16 different power sets, this is a very good thing. And, talking about the humans merged with extra-terrestrial entity in the comic book...Spider-man with the alien simbiote, all the Wetworks team, Phoenix(the last version, not the original one. Even if even that was similar to this, being an alien who copied inside itself the mind of the original), Captain Universe...we could even add Spawn to the group. And don't we forget War Machine(a pure human using a living alien armor)

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping for actual missing comic book archetypes, maybe along the lines of Powerhouse (big guys who can also do damage), Mastermind (Lex, Joker, etc... smart guys the type everyone has to make scrappers or controllers now) and Sentinel (maybe along the lines of Defender but with melee damage).

[/ QUOTE ]

Powerhouse=Tankers
as said before, you cannot put in a game a level of strenght like that of the Hulk.
Mastermind=not applicable
To play your game, could you kindly name me just one SUPERHERO taken by the comics who could enter this archetype? No way...because this is a VILLAIN archetype, not a hero one. Professor X=no. His a controller. Oracle(Barbara Gordon)=no. She's just a contact. Ezekiel=no. His a scrapper. And a contact. Maybe in the CoV a similar kind of action could be used, but I doubt it. The game is mainly based on fighting. A thing like that could be for the archvillain, not for the players. Or, if you like(I hope not), a different game, like the Evil Genius one they are selling now, a 007-like version of Dungeon Keeper...
Sentinel=a mix between tanker and blaster and controller. Just like a lot of comic heroes, they could not fit in an AT from CoH. Thor? A mix. Captain America? a scrapper with a shield(in the future, a pure scrapper :cool:). Iron man? a mix. Superman? A mega mix.

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, Warshades. Peacebringers.

"You know like those comic book staples, uhm... You know the ones, there's that guy."

"Which one do you mean? There's SO many that have the integral traits of coming from an alien planet and drawing power from the people in their proximity. I just don't know where to begin."

[/ QUOTE ]

just said before, the mixing human/extra-human exist in comics. And, like other said, it doesn't necessary needs to be a stolen copyright to be interesting. I prefer to be able to create e hero from a not too used idea in the comic than being able to create a mutant. And if they came out with an idea totally invented never seen in the comics, even better.
Where is written that a hero must be necessary be stick to the old rules? I can imagine when you discovered that they merged a biker with a demon in the '70 giving the original Ghost Rider...what are they, crazy? Quick, transform him in a mutant!! ;)

[ QUOTE ]
And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you still don't remember that Kheldans are just the FIRST AT coming out. It's been said various times that there will be a lot of others in the future, from winged ones(in work) till the Statesman AT(planned after CoV). There will be various, not just this 2.

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose this wouldn't have been such a big issue if Cryptic hadn't sworn up and down, left and right, that this game would never, ever have the pigeon holed classes of other games. Well, then again they said they wouldn't have dance emotes and dance clubs either so... Lame. :(

[/ QUOTE ]

never read something about it, and I'm in from beta, my low numbr of post and recent enter date is just because they forced me to move from the account I created during beta(as "spagliani") to the actual one. I've read the forum all the time, even to post news on the italian CoH forum, on www.mmorpgitalia.it (http://www.mmorpgitalia.it) and I've never read about never put the dance emotes in the game...nor about other statements about "pidgeon holed classes". But since I'm from Italy and my knowledge of english is not perfect, I don't know what you're meaning with this term. What do you mean?

[ QUOTE ]
All that being said, we don't know much about these things so I can't give up hope yet. Cryptic has surprised me in the past, maybe they will here too. I sure hope so!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the only part of the post I totally agree...they've made a very good job till now, I'll wait to see what this AT are for sure before complaining about them, if any...

Capca

11-12-2004, 07:38 AM

My point wasn’t that there aren’t any heroes who share common origins (Fantastic Four are some that haven’t been mentioned yet). My point was that DC doesn’t have a Kryptonian standing on every street corner in Metropolis waiting for a crime to stop. If every DCV super team had a Green Lantern on it, people would think they’re being unimaginative.

I don’t dispute that each player can give his/her Kheldian different personas and backgrounds. Some might have been scientists, soldiers, or teachers back home. The same would hold true if you chose an elf/mage in another game. Each one would have different goals and motivations. You are still an elf and a mage though. With the same racial powers as every other elf and access to the same spells as every other mage.

Imagine if Cryptic had used that idea from the very beginning. All tanker might be given 16 super strength-like powers and 16 powers appropriate for invulnerability. Even a step further, they would all be rescued Crey prisoners who had been subject to experiment 593. Sure each person is free to decide who he or she was before the experiment, and how he or she feels about it after. Now expand that design to all archetypes; to me that is the difference between the archetype system we currently have and the “class” system EATs are part of. Its kind of funny when you think about to, many fantasy MMORPGs are trying to break away from the class system with skills trees, traits, alternate advancement, and other bits if individuality. COH is adding class/race combos to an otherwise (almost) freeform builder.

Personally, I’d rather play Spiderman than shield agent 626. I’m not trying to argue against EATs, obviously Cryptic has put a lot of work into them, and so they’re coming whether we like it or not. I just feel they canned heroes and really haven’t an interest. I could be wrong, and they might be widely unpopular, so like an ice tanker, seeing another one is a rare novelty.

Exelion

11-12-2004, 07:59 AM

Well, OK, we know Kheldians and Warshades are both part of the same species/whatever, right?

So in reality, you can look at this as the alien AT, with Kheldian and Warshade powersets.

You have less options to pick from, but these two are ATs of the same genre, just like a BS and a DM are both Scrappers.

Gryphon_Cyrus

11-12-2004, 08:36 AM

[Quote]Imagine if Cryptic had used that idea from the very beginning. All tanker might be given 16 super strength-like powers and 16 powers appropriate for invulnerability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe what Statesman has said was that both EATs would have 16 power SETS (8 primary, 8 secondary I would assume), not just 16 predetermined powers, and I would assume they would have access to all the power pools as well, which goes against the analogy of your "elf mage." Though if you could find the direct quote where he says that the EATs would be given 16 powers rather than 16 powersets, I'll concide the point.

How about a counter analogy. Let's equate both EATs to a branch of the military. Not everyone in a given branch has all the same abilities. Some people are technitians, some are in charge of communications, some are the experts in using heavy ordinance. It comes down to what each person is good at. Now assume that the two EATs are branches of the Kheldians' military. It would stand to reason that each member of that "branch" might have different specializations. In game terms, these specializations would be the power set combinations. The devs know that they need to offer veriety to the players so they aren't going to limit you to only one powerset.

As a side note: When the skills system comes out, all characters, including Kheldians, will be able to destiguish themselves that much more.

Grump

11-12-2004, 08:46 AM

Here's my concern. (Note that it's a concern and not an issue. A concern is what you fear may happen. So don't jump down my throat.)

I'm concerned that the game is moving further away from a comic book background and into a more traditional MMORPG character based system. Although I'm enjoying the game, I still think they have a way to go to capture the feel of a comic book. Purposely making this game "unique" will not help them to reach that lofty goal.

Again, this is only a concern. They may be able to pull it off. But I think Cryptic should realize that myself at least will watch very carefully where this goes.

BTW, as a side note, I've been a bit perturbed by how people who voice any negative opinions on Issue #3 have been summarily beaten down by fervent fans. Cryptic needs to hear both the positive and negative, as long as it's done in a constructive manner.

Ultra_Violence

11-12-2004, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around. Even if the hero's entire race has the same powers as him, he's usually the only one hanging around (or one of a very small number). This is done for a very good reason. Superman, Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter are all good examples. Each of them would somehow be lessened if a whole bunch of Kryptonians, Thanagarians, or Martians showed up and all became heroes. That's pretty much why I have no intention of playing one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate to break it to you but that is exactly what has been done in comics. Superman is the best example, there are well over a dozen Kryptonians/(Kryptonian look alikes like Powergirl) running about (including 3 supergirls and counting at the moment) and a whole city of them in storage, all with the same powers whom they pull out whenever they want for a story. Superman's origin and powers were copied so much that that was one of the reasons they restarted Superman from scratch and then fell into the same lack of creativity. Just as DC destroyed all the alternate Earth's and what is happening next month? The villians from Earth 3 are coming visiting again.

The same goes for Hawkman who is basically just a cop from another planet full of people like him.

What you forget is that one server in CoH has more heros than the entire DC and Marvel Universes put together. I sincerly doubt the RPG you run has that many people in it. With that many people duplication of powers and origins can't be avoided. The fact is that for a MORP CoH has the most individuality of characters of any MORP to date.

To my eye from day one CoH most resembles The City in the first episode of the Tick cartoon with so many heros running around they are swinging into each other from buildings. :D

Capca

11-12-2004, 08:55 AM

The only quote I've seen on the number of powers (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=1690261&bod yprev=#Post1690261)

[ QUOTE ]

Both Archetypes have brand NEW power sets.

In fact, there's 16 Primary Powers and 16 Secondary Powers.

Yep. Not 9. 16.

And there's Shapeshifting. Of a sort....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think he has said if they get more than one primary and secondary for the peacebringers or warshades or if they can mix and match between them but he 16 definitely refers to the number of powers within each set.

And since Statesman compared them to krytonians, it would be like having one in a DC RPG. You would all have the same powers as Supes. Some may neglect developing certain powers like their eye beams and through pools, some may be the boxers, doctors, or leaders of their people, but they all have flight, speed, tough skin, heat vision, and strength as there racial powers. The high-elf/mages of COH.

Dr_Simian

11-12-2004, 08:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that DC doesn’t have a Kryptonian standing on every street corner in Metropolis waiting for a crime to stop. If every DCV super team had a Green Lantern on it, people would think they’re being unimaginative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in my opinion, some of the most imaginative stories in DC occured when you had several people with common powers and backgrounds. There are loads of great GL corp stories full of characters with the same background and origin, yet good authors flesh out the characters and make them distinct and interesting.

Take Legion of Superheroes, at times they had three or four Kryptonians around (well some were Daxamites but close enough.) Now, there were certainly unimaginative authors that wrote as if Mon-El was just Superboy in a red shirt and Kara was just Clark in a skirt. But there were also great stories, where differences in personality and subtle differences in backgrounds made the characters seems alive and unique.

The same will be true with the Kheldians. Unimaginative players will be Kheldian12324 who is here, like all Kheldians to fight bad guys and get experience. But clever players will be Blargo, the quiet yet passionate Kheldian artist caught up in a war he wants no part of but agrees must be won.

It comes down to the players and how much effort they want to put into the character. Some people prefer to play without worrying about characterization or background, Kheldians will be great for them. Some people like being creative and coming up with a complex background, Kheldians will be good for them as well, they just present different challanges.

Cranstic

11-12-2004, 09:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I was pretty excited when they announced a couple of epic Archetypes for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't - have to get to level 50 first? Yeah right.

Gryphon_Cyrus

11-12-2004, 10:20 AM

OK, so I stand corrected, but that still keeps them from being limited. We are talking about a total of 32 powers for each EAT, and those are just the ones that are specific to them. Statesman didn't say they wouldn't have access to Power Pools so that ads the 4 powers from each of those. So there would be a bit more variety than I think you were assuming (which I could be wrong about), just not as much as the other ATs. The point is that this doesn't seem like it is that much of a step back just yet.

As an aside: Statesman did say new power sets for both EATs (first line of the quote), but not how many between the two of them, so there is still the potential for there to be more than one Primary and one Secondary for each of them.

In any event, we will have to wait and see.

(Yet another aside: I am liking our debate about this, so if I'm being at all abrasive in my disagreeing with you, I appologize.)

ICF_Zombra

11-12-2004, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Being true to comics is good but being a good game is the most important thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dittos.

1) Is it fun?
2) Is it consistent with the world of comics?

... 3) Is it in exactly the same format that we've become used to?

Who really cares about 3?

ICF_Zombra

11-12-2004, 06:03 PM

Actually, I have thought about this a little more.

No, Kheldians are not really comic archetypes (small a). But they will be (Epic) Archetypes (big A) in COH, because they will be player characters that have powers, and the power sets that your character has are delineated by their Archetype. By definition, any discrete and exclusive set of character options is an Archetype in this game. So much for semantics.

Story-wise, here is a hypothetical comic situation (and I'm not a good DC geek, so some of my facts might be wrong; please bear with me): imagine that Krypton never went kaboom, and that Superman was fired into space because his parents wanted to spare him being tortured to death by Kryptonian fascists or some such thing. Of course Supe doesn't remember any of this; he was just a baby. The message crystal or whatever got lost in transit. All he knows is that he is from space and landed on Earth in some kind of alien escape pod. Still comic booky? A more lame story, but yes. OK. Now imagine that somebody from Krypton sends a message to Supes 30 years later. Krypton's sun has turned yellow or something and there's a big civil war going on at home, with everybody all superpowered and stuff and vying for domination. Maybe some evil guy wants to unite Krypton into a huge super army to take over the universe. So, the basic story line is that Superman, with his long experience using these powers, has to return home to tip the balance and make sure that Krypton natives use their new abilities for good, and whip the forces of evil. He decides to bring along a bunch of his friends, because even though they suck compared to him, they can still probably help. A big long limited series runs this story line, which all takes place on and around Krypton. You with me so far? OK, I know the concept isn't the greatest; I just thought it up as an example. The point is that it is still in keeping with the overall genre of superhero comics. Right? Right.

Now, in this series there are obviously going to be a bunch of new Kryptonian characters introduced. They may be great, or they may suck, but they are obviously going to be necessary for the story. If a GM wrote this storyline in a pen-and-paper RPG, some of the players would probably want to run Kryptonians while others would stick with their Earthling characters, brought along by Supe.

This is the situation with Kheldians in COH. There is actually a storyline going on in the game that introduces a significant new population element to the game world, and these Epic ATs allow the players to participate directly in that storyline (as opposed to: "Aliens are around! Well, they're all NPCs, but you can fight the bad ones.") Sure, it may be a egg > chicken situation where the storyline was written specifically around the idea of putting new ATs into the game, but what's wrong with that?

Now, if the story sucks, and the new ATs are boring, then we'll have something to get legitimately annoyed about. :cool:

rehdjac

11-12-2004, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my concern. (Note that it's a concern and not an issue. A concern is what you fear may happen. So don't jump down my throat.)

I'm concerned that the game is moving further away from a comic book background and into a more traditional MMORPG character based system. Although I'm enjoying the game, I still think they have a way to go to capture the feel of a comic book. Purposely making this game "unique" will not help them to reach that lofty goal.

Again, this is only a concern. They may be able to pull it off. But I think Cryptic should realize that myself at least will watch very carefully where this goes.

BTW, as a side note, I've been a bit perturbed by how people who voice any negative opinions on Issue #3 have been summarily beaten down by fervent fans. Cryptic needs to hear both the positive and negative, as long as it's done in a constructive manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about and is preciesly Statesman's own concern with Tanks.

I don't want to go grab quotes from everyone's posts but I'll address some stuff folks said in their replies to my thread. (Which I appreciate by the way.)

To the person who thought they were proving me wrong by listing Tanks in comics. Yes you're right, there ARE tanks in comics, and the heroes you listed are infact of that archtype. My concern with Tanks, which Statesman agrees with by his own admission on more than one occasion, is that characters in this game of the Tank archtype do not feel like Tanks from comics. This isn't really debatable here by the way, the person who designed the game is taking steps to remedy this, they obviously see the problem.

Second, I'm not quite sure how my post somehow paints me a mimic player. I'm one of the people reporting all you Spyderm4ns, Poonishers and -Wolv3rines-. Every single one of my heroes has a well thought out origin and back story reflected in their appearance and power choices. Yes I gave examples of heroes in the same archetypes as Paragon but this was to illustrate that no such hero exists for "Kheldians."

The quoted post above very succinctly states the issue. Statesman is changing the Tank archetype to more reflect the flavor of comics at the same time Cryptic is introducing an "Archetype" that has nothing whatsoever to do with them. This is a discrepency in design.

To the people who say it doesn't matter, we disagree. OF COURSE it matters, the setting and theme of these massive online nerd games is one of the most important ways it can differentiate itself from the herds of others. This precise, simple idea is what led Statesman to say that Tanks were in need of help, because while they did their assigned task in nerd games, this wasn't enough because they didn't (don't) mimic comics.

If Kehldians, why not an "archetpye" of Elves? How about Dwarves? "Elves are heroes from an alternate dimension called the Land of Yor and can choose from the Archetypes of Thief and Mage." Your arguments that Kheldian's are a legitimate addition can be used to justify aboslutely anything. I find generic arguments tenuous.

Now of course I'm not insinuating that I think we'll all be raiding dragon's, searching for "The Wrath"s, drinking potions and working on our cooking skills. I don't think there's going to be a hobbit archetype. But like the poster quoted, I do beleive this is a departure from stated goals, design and theme. They are a race, not an origin, and they are some typical nerd game hybrid class, not superhero archetypes.

Alloric

11-13-2004, 07:25 AM

Wait... What's the point? *Playing* a comic book?

...

Yep. We're playing parts in a comic book. You've played this long because of what?

Huh?

You're having fun so far? Hrm... Give them a shot...

New aliens that make us even *more* comic book-y? *Gasp!* "That's not cool or game friendly! Lets bash it. I'm super enough and don't want to be any more super!" "Discrepancy in design"? Don't make me laugh! They're designing a comic for us to play, not *copying* a comic to play. Not a departure, but an imaginitive step forward (into a comic-y realm of a storyline).

*I* find your objections both "tenuous" and overly worried about something that HASN'T EVEN DEBUTED ON TEST. Truly, I'm sorry that I picked up on this thread.

FatesHand

11-13-2004, 03:30 PM

I could not find a way to create a new topic so hopefully some DEV will see this.

I would just like to know what happens if we are post level 41 when Issue 3 comes out. If I already chose a normal power at 41, could I respec to choose an EPP instead?

Basically, how do we get the EPP's? If you can't tell me that, could you at least reassure me I'll be able to get an Epic Power Pool with my post 41 char?

SpongeCake

11-13-2004, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I could not find a way to create a new topic so hopefully some DEV will see this.

I would just like to know what happens if we are post level 41 when Issue 3 comes out. If I already chose a normal power at 41, could I respec to choose an EPP instead?

Basically, how do we get the EPP's? If you can't tell me that, could you at least reassure me I'll be able to get an Epic Power Pool with my post 41 char?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine they're the same as any other power; you get the choice to pick from the Epic Power Pools as well as the other ones at Level 41+. So, if you're 41+ you can Respec and get the EPPs that way.

FatesHand

11-13-2004, 03:37 PM

Well thats what I was worried about. That meens if I or someone else have done their last respec, then it's too late for them to go back and get an Epic Power Pool.

SpongeCake

11-13-2004, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well thats what I was worried about. That meens if I or someone else have done their last respec, then it's too late for them to go back and get an Epic Power Pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman is consdiering allowing people like that a free Respec. Don't hold your breath though.

SpongeCake

11-13-2004, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe what Statesman has said was that both EATs would have 16 power SETS (8 primary, 8 secondary I would assume), not just 16 predetermined powers, and I would assume they would have access to all the power pools as well, which goes against the analogy of your "elf mage." Though if you could find the direct quote where he says that the EATs would be given 16 powers rather than 16 powersets, I'll concide the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought much the same (it's a very confusing quote).
States says:

Both Archetypes have brand NEW power sets.

In fact, there's 16 Primary Powers and 16 Secondary Powers.

Yep. Not 9. 16.

The "Not 9" thing seems to confirm that these are powers, not powersets, as other ATs have 9 powers per set.

Gryphon_Cyrus

11-13-2004, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I'm getting about the EATs is that they all fit under the heading of "I'm not really a part of any of the 5 main hero types." Essentially these could be thought of as all one archetype, but only not.

[ QUOTE ]
And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Science isn't the one for aliens, Natural is, but that's beside the point. Also, if by Manhunter you mean, "Martian Manhunter," then "Powerhouse" would be a mistake. DC's Martians would be considered EATs with the shapeshifting and the mental powers. However, if we aren't naming those two then how about some others that fit into the idea that each comic universe has EATs that are unique to themselves and wouldn't be thought of as fitting any archetype (note: there ARE only 5 classic archetypes).

1) Image's Spawn: In fact there have been many Spawns according to the mythos of the comic. All of them are humans who died and were given powers directly linked to Hell. All of them have the exact same powers and their major weakness is that they have a limited amount of power they can use before they are completely corrupted.

2) DC's Green Lantern: Energy blaster, Illusion controler, FF defender, and any sort of scrapper or tanker they want to be and they can change their role on the fly. With the infinite power of their rings, the GL Corps screams of being an EAT and they really don't fit into the any other AT. What's more, since EATs are supposed have weaknesses: what about the color yellow?

3) DC's Hawkman/Hawkgirl: More specifically the Thanegarian race as a whole. 'Nough said.

The fact is that the Kheldian's "classes" (and other EATs) are just the CoH world's response to every other comic book universe's characters who don't fit into the main five archetypes that can be seen constantly.

Capca

11-13-2004, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The fact is that the Kheldian's "classes" (and other EATs) are just the CoH world's response to every other comic book universe's characters who don't fit into the main five archetypes that can be seen constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here in is the exact problem. Heroes in comics rarely fit into the basic archetypes, but for game balance we have them and must fit our characters into them.

If you played the orginal D&D game before it became advanced, you might remember what the classes were like. If you were human you could choose between fighter, mage, cleric, & thief. If you were and elf you were automatically what would become a fighter/mage. If you were a dwarf or halfling you were a fighter (but each races own varient of fighter). This is basically what COH is evolving into, if your human (or from Earth) you are one of 5 archtypes, othewise you are a race/class combo.

Perhaps I could illistrate it better if I tell you how I think the archtype way of introducing Kheldians would work instead of the class version we're getting.

Obviously if the EATs work differently than current archtypes they must have their own "function". Crytpic could introduce a real EAT that is designed around that function. Give it about 4 or 5 primary and secondary powersets, fire, ice, darkness, & energy for example. Lets call it the Offender EAT. For the sake of arguement, lets assume the entire EAT is unlocked at 50. At that point you can make an Offender EAT matching any of the EATs primaries to a secondary (say a Fire/Ice Offender), and pick any orgin like we normally do.

Now introduce Kheldians into the game, and have them use powers from this new EAT, say energy/energy. Within a day you will see players choosing to make Kheldians from this new AT, mimicing powers as close to them as they can. If they want to give players access to Kheldian stories they still could. Perhaps a special origin called Kheldian that is only avialable after you unlock the Offender EAT, that then forces you to select energy/energy if you choose it.

The game was set up so that we have 'general' ATs that we can then use to make specific heroes. If you want to make a hero that is part of a specific race or group you can. Just select the archtype and powersets that best represents the group. Do we really need entire power sets devoted to specific races? That would be like saying only Green Lanterns can have moldable force fields, or only kryptonians can have flight and superstrength together, an idea that is a complete 180 to how COH was introduced,

SagittaryGold

11-13-2004, 10:45 PM

Kheldians are an archetype. They're just not the sort of archetype that we have a name for like tank or mage (or tankmage). They're an archetype of a person achieving superhuman ability via either openning themselves up to outside energy or entity or being forcefully possessed by such. They are a race, yes, but they're more openly just a representation; you have to look at what they do and how they do it not just what they are..

A Kheldian bonded with a human can have any number of origins, including...

A Quasar type hero who is possessed by some alien entity/energy. That's the straight forward approach but doesn't look at their traits.

Or, looking at how they gain power, perhaps you might opt for...

Centuries ago, a small group of Kheldians needed to fight off a group of Nictus that were taking over some people and doing, well, bad things. So they bonded with worthy humans and ended up fighting the Nictus as such. But to aid in their power, they had other humans worship them as gods, relying upon their belief and close proximity to empower them. Eventually fact became legend, legend myth, and the epic struggle of the Norse Gods versus the Giants was created. Jump forward to the present day and one of those ancient Warshades (the one who used to be Thor perhaps) has returned to once again fight the Nictus..

Bang, we've just created a background for a whole bunch of Kheldians simply by applying to them the aspect of divinity. You can play Thor or Hercules or some super powered Greek Amazon. And that's just one interpretation.

You could also say that, in a sort of Statesman/Western interpretation, that your hero became enlightened, proving themselves worthy of being host. Blah blah blah, they gained 'enlightened' powers and what have you.

Gryphon_Cyrus

11-13-2004, 10:51 PM

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Here in is the exact problem. Heroes in comics rarely fit into the basic archetypes, but for game balance we have them and must fit our characters into them.

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I beg to differ. The fact is that most heroes in comics do fit into the 5 basics. The thing about the game is that certain power sets haven't been introduced into the game to facilitate that.

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If you played the orginal D&D game before it became advanced, you might remember what the classes were like. If you were human you could choose between fighter, mage, cleric, & thief. If you were and elf you were automatically what would become a fighter/mage. If you were a dwarf or halfling you were a fighter (but each races own varient of fighter). This is basically what COH is evolving into, if your human (or from Earth) you are one of 5 archtypes, othewise you are a race/class combo.

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I can come up with a bunch of RP ways to actually get around this apparent limitation, which I can go into if you ask. Oh and Statesman's AT (which he said would be out after CoV) would be for humans as well.

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That would be like saying only Green Lanterns can have moldable force fields, or only kryptonians can have flight and superstrength together, an idea that is a complete 180 to how COH was introduced.

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You are being way to general with the powers of GLs and Kryptonians. The introduction of the Kheldians in the way they are doing it now would be more like saying that Kryptonians are mostly the ones who have the combination of powers of flight, super strength, super jump, super speed/intangiblity, invulnerablity, x-ray vision/heat vision, cold breath, and super reflexes (primary set = defense, secondary = offence). What that means is that Kheldians might not be the only ones with the powers they have since you should still be able to choose your Origin when you create the character (the devs haven't said you can't yet).

DaBigGobbo

11-15-2004, 11:04 AM

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BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.

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I just think that the introduction of these Kryptonians...oh wait excuse me Kheldians is a very strange way to reward people who have made it all the way to 50 or who have unlocked Kheldians in any other way you guys decide. I simply feel it stunts the creative aspect of character design and stroy creation if the devlepors have already decided your character has come from another world. I personally think that taking away so much of the character design process form us by forcing this "archetype" on us is dissapoitning. Let alone my feelings against making their powersbetter in groups; what if you prefer being a bit of a loner? I am VERY pleased with and looking foerward to the epic power pools, I just think you guys could have found a way to make these epic archetypes more easily accesible to different origin stories because in effect Kheldian seems to thematially be an origin NOT an archetype. I'll stop ranting now but this coupled with the removal of the 5th Column so as to sell more copies in europe are both bad moves. Love the game so far guys though I'm just worreid for the first time with this game.

Zeppline

04-29-2005, 06:29 PM

KHELDIANS R TEH SUXXORR

Wooden_Replica

06-12-2005, 10:39 AM

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I was pretty excited when they announced a couple of epic Archetypes for the game. I figured they would probably be a great oprotunity to play some of the more powerful heroes I designed. Me and mine spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what they would be. Then I read Statesman's description.

Kheldians: Warshades and Peacebringers.

So, uhm. These aren't archetypes, these are straight up classes. An archetype is a general model or pattern from which all similar things are copied or based. The current five archetypes, ARE indeed archetypes. You can fill voluminous lists with comic heroes that fit Balster, Tank, Scrapper, Defender, Controller. More than that the five current archetypes model their comic counterparts pretty well. (Except of course Tanks, all they do is serve a nerd game purpose, they are nothing like the comics, but 4 out of 5 is pretty good!)

Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.

I was hoping for actual missing comic book archetypes, maybe along the lines of Powerhouse (big guys who can also do damage), Mastermind (Lex, Joker, etc... smart guys the type everyone has to make scrappers or controllers now) and Sentinel (maybe along the lines of Defender but with melee damage).

Nope, Warshades. Peacebringers.

"You know like those comic book staples, uhm... You know the ones, there's that guy."

"Which one do you mean? There's SO many that have the integral traits of coming from an alien planet and drawing power from the people in their proximity. I just don't know where to begin."

And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.

Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.

I suppose this wouldn't have been such a big issue if Cryptic hadn't sworn up and down, left and right, that this game would never, ever have the pigeon holed classes of other games. Well, then again they said they wouldn't have dance emotes and dance clubs either so... Lame. :(

All that being said, we don't know much about these things so I can't give up hope yet. Cryptic has surprised me in the past, maybe they will here too. I sure hope so!

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Actually pick up the Twilight Project by Wilstorm, both of the heroes( and the villian in it) strongly resemble human form kelds( both PB & WS)

MessiahBlaze

06-12-2005, 11:31 AM

I can see the fans of Kheldians saying 6 months later they are just too cool. I resisted the urge to create one. I caved.

Made level 6. DELETED>

Now, I agree with the original poster and some of the things that followed. I agreed with some of the replies as well.

The biggest thing that caught my eye (I reread the entire listing) was the poster who suggested that after 50 levels of earning, to have something unlocked that forced you into an origin (origin meaning backstory, not Game Origin/Class) of being a 'merged alien' is a valid point.
This is true bile if its the reward for climbing to 50. And believe me, some of us climbed and not PL'd. I can't accept that in a world rocked by an alien invasion that any hero right up to Stateman (the in-story guy, not the developer) himself is even "okay" with the very thought that more aliens is a good thing. In fact, I would think that he and his buddies in the Freedom Phalanx would be unnerved at the idea considering how many of his closest friends paid the price to protect Mother Earth from an alien presence.

But OK, I'll say it's part of the CoH mythos. I'll bite.

In recent history, my hometown baseball team, the Diamondbacks, hired a manager (Wally Backman) they failed to do a background check on, and in the end never completed the transaction, and hired a new candidate because the Backman deal would not stand up to scrutiny.

Its not too late for that posters suggestion to be taken serious and implemented and CoH to rework its Wally Backman. I am going to spin it a little for modification purpose.

Make Kheldians an origin choice that can use both Natural and Science. Make a Epic AT that unlocks at 50 that allows for combinations the other ATs currently don't deliver. Several choices and then make the Kheldian ORIGIN become available here. This choice could then make the current Kheldian setup work out. Beyond this, the absolute TRUTH (a concept that people often in these boards take semantic repetition and razor splitting precision to unravel) is that the Kheldian AT is not a fair reward for making it to 50. I am neither impressed nor satisfied as a paying customer with the 'reward' for time and money invested and the accomplishments of the player.
Kheldians is a lemon; a "Let them eat cake" answer to hungry long-term players and a great example of someone else thinking their "cool" idea is your idea of a "cool" idea.
Just because each powerset has 16 powers does not mean you get all of them. And with one primary and one secondary to select from, the other ATs are still far more appealing to the the player for variance, origin, and story ideal.

Whether Kheldians advance the story concept for the Developers has nothing to do with you or I as a player advancing our own creativity or comic world that WE buy into. And they screw up the learned dynamic of player proficiency in groups far more than creating the opportunity for teaming to improve in quality.

The short answer is that I do not have to make a Kheldian if I choose not to. The long awaited anticipation will be that the next release of ATs is a true reward for my time invested and loyalty. That is will be a wider array of generic-type categorical ATs that allow for obvious difference to the beginning player.

If I want to say he or she is an alien or even a plant, that should be my choice alone.

IdNemesis

06-12-2005, 12:01 PM

Sure is one hell of circle jerk going on in here.... yep.

Zeppline

06-13-2005, 09:22 AM

You threadromanced my threadromancy.

Damn

Goldbrick

06-13-2005, 01:58 PM

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I can see the fans of Kheldians saying 6 months later they are just too cool.

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Once you get into them, they are pretty epic. I got a pb up to level 16 initially and shelved it, it was too loaded with drawbacks. But with Issue 4 the drawbacks were removed, so I revisited my lvl 16.

A world of difference. Now my pb is 34 and my lvl 50 is storing up HOs for him.

Really, these kheldians are quite epic. Instant phase shift, innate travel powers, solid resistance powers, lots of damage powers to choose from, bonuses to damage/resistance from party members, and the ability to change shape to powerful specialized forms. (Technically, peacebringers get an extra form with Light Form at level 38.)

And another reason why I returned to my peacebringer was because dwarf tankers can't be detoggled in the arena.

Peacebringers and warshades are sub-ATs at worst. I mean, you have enough extra powers to choose from so that almost no two Kheldians are likely to be exactly the same. Sure, some powers are must-haves like quantum flight, but your peacebringer could emphasize human form resistances/damage with healing and controlling, or go for non-human-form play as dwarf/squid (tank/mage), or with the warshade stay human and be a pet-controller/debuffer with good resistances and innate teleporting and blaster-type powers, or go dwarf/squid.

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The short answer is that I do not have to make a Kheldian if I choose not to. The long awaited anticipation will be that the next release of ATs is a true reward for my time invested and loyalty. That is will be a wider array of generic-type categorical ATs that allow for obvious difference to the beginning player.

If I want to say he or she is an alien or even a plant, that should be my choice alone.

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Well, I have a little warshade too, and I chose to go all human and claim that the alien energy was captured in a device.

There's a lot of alien-energy-powered heroes in the comics, not the least of which is Green Lantern (a peacebringer if ever I saw one).