Debuff question.

[Chiyoko]

Hello all!

Question for those in the know, does a debuff from the same power stack with itself?

I believe buffs don't stack, but debuffs do however I am not certain so I'm asking, thanks in advance.

-C

[NinjaMonkey]

You have to be more specific. Some debuffs do stack. For example, with kinetics, I can siphon power multiple times. If I hit a target twice they get -50% dmg (-25 plus -25). It also stacks the buff for +40% dmg (+20 plus +20) to me and those near me.

[Chiyoko]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to be more specific. Some debuffs do stack. For example, with kinetics, I can siphon power multiple times. If I hit a target twice they get -50% dmg (-25 plus -25). It also stacks the buff for +40% dmg (+20 plus +20) to me and those near me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that kinda basically answer's my question. I was talking with my roommate and I said that if I took a radiation defender, I would try out taking the first fast attack they get and 6-slotting it for defense debuff. It has like a 1 sec act. and a 1.5 sec recharge, so I would just spam that defense debuff. Then he says thats pointless because debuffs do NOT stack from the same power. And I said, yes they do, Geko even posted that they do. But alas the post has expired. So are there any DEBUFFS that do not stack with itself.

One other point, as far as I know, Parry stacks with itself and its a personal buff. Is that true? I was under the impression that buffs from the same power do not stack with themselves. But I may be wrong about this.

-Peace

[NinjaMonkey]

I'm not sure about parry.

The rad attacks might stack debuff but the debuff duration is so short I think it's be a waste. In that specific situation you'd probably be better off with damage.

I'm not positive but there may be some debuffs that don't stack. However, I can't think of any right now. You might just have to search the AT specific forum for your question on a specific power.

[geko]

In general, Debuffs stack, even debuffs from the same caster and same power on the same target (there may be a few exceptions, but I cant recall any at this moment). All debuffs stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[Backstab_NA]

For examples:

Debuffs:

You can use Smoke Grenade and debuff an enemy's accuracy, then use it again. If the first debuff's timer is not out by the time you cast the second one, you will have two accuracy debuffs running until the first one runs out.

If 2 heroes use smoke grenade on the same mob, then the mob will be debuffed twice. If 8 heroes use the same debuff, then it will get 8 stacking debuffs, etc.

Buffs:

If you use accelerated metabolism and buff your group and another hero uses accelerated metabolism to buff your group, then they will stack.

If you use accelerated metabolism and then (by using hasten and acc metabolism in conjunction) recast it before the first one wears off, it will restart the timer for the buff (so it lasts the full buff length) but you cannot have the two buffs overlap for those few seconds.

[Zodnom]

SG stacks???

[Glugankhamen]

While folks are looking here regarding debuffs.. does anyone have any idea what the -ACC secondary effect numbers are like on Dark Melee for scrappers?

With all the +DEF and -ACC going on, it's really hard to tell what's what, and I'm trying to find out just how useful it would be to deviate from the standard 1ACC 5DAM setup everyone uses.

I've heard that it's too low for slotting to matter, but any info helps.

[theHasbeen]

You're going to have to clarify a bit here geko. Enervating field reduces damage dealt by 37.5% to an even level. Does stacking 3 of these cause them to heal you every time they attack?

[Tibrogargan]

It really seems that villains FF stack from the same caster. If anything gets 2 bubbles on it, don't bother trying to attack it.

[hexcore]

I might be wrong here but I thought that a Debuff can only be apply once per caster.

IE the sg from earlier post. no matter how many times "Blaster A" tosses his nade it only debufs it X amount. Not X time number of nades

Were as "Blaster A" and "Blaster B" each toss a nade then you have X plus X

This stops a "Blaster A" from Debuffing a Arcvillan down to what ever the Minimum To hit chase(5% Or somethis I herd)

Replace Blaster with Your archetype of choice and Nade with debuff of choice. Your mailage may varie

[Kazarak]

So in terms of strategy/tactics a bad group says "No, we already have a Kinetics Defender" and a good group adds a 2nd or a thrid. Same with Bubbly Defenders. A group of 3 Kintetic Defends, 1 tank, 3 Blasters/Scrappers and a Controller is probably one of the better groups.

[Kaphtor]

There are caps on the amount any variable can be buffed/dubuffed. I believe the cap on damage resistance debuffing is -75%, so when you reduce an enemy's resistance to 25%, it takes 4* the normal damage but never more than that. On damage, I think the same -75% cap might be in place (no less than 25% of normal damage). I can't recall that cap specifically. The caps on defense and accuracy are well known, you always have a 5% chance of hitting/being hit. As far as I know, it is possible to have 100% chance as well (by buffing accuracy/debuffing defense). Damage resistance caps out at +90%, so 10% of damage always will get through.

I'd also like to know the amount by which secondary effects debuff defense (for rad) and accuracy (for dark), but I do recall seeing that it is a very short effect, usually only as long as the recharge on the attack or a bit longer ('attacks' like twilight grasp, which don't actually do damage, are longer). I doubt many people slot these attacks to enhance secondary effects, because they wear off so quickly.

[Pennelope]

[ QUOTE ]

By contrast, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that there are exceptions, right? I'm 99.9999% sure that Clear Mind stacks from a single Empath. At least, based upon the list of icons next to the target on the team window....

[La_Tortuga]

Actually, I am fairly certain Siphon Power stacks from the same caster too - My kin controller pairs with another kin controller and we routinely see 4 Siphon Power icons on us at the same time. From limited testing, the amount of damage our pitiful attacks do does appear to grow with each successful application.

So, I think there must be some exceptions (or are the exceptions bugs?).

[Kagenushi]

Yes Syphon Power from the Ken line does stack. At one time I had done a few missions where it was My Ill/Ken and 2 other Kenetics (A controler and a Defender). We where able to lower the NPCs damage to such a point that we could withstand a few hits and our damage was not unotiably low as usual. We by no means Pwned the mobs but they where much easier. :)

[9783_Dollar_Man]

Clear Mind stacks, too. You can get a ton of little Clear Mind icons next to a teammate if you are persistent.

[Lord_Entropy]

Hey Geko, I think it's time you changed your sig. No one is complaining that acc has been nerfed anymore, except some of us DM scrappers here. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1530500&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#1530500)

[Idioteraser]

They allowed clear mind to stack since it is a protect buff and doesn't really buff up the person being clearminded. No increased damage or reduced damage just that status attacks don't do their secondary on the hero. They do damage however. Smoke grenade from the same user was not allowed to stack.

Most debuffs do not stack and most buffs are the same. Would be too powerfull if they can stack from the same user.

[Greyhawke]

I really would like official clarification on whether the Acc Debuff of smoke grenade stacks from the same caster. I know at one time they had decided it should not stack, but maybe that was before they 'fixed' it.

[Backstab_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
So in terms of strategy/tactics a bad group says "No, we already have a Kinetics Defender" and a good group adds a 2nd or a thrid. Same with Bubbly Defenders. A group of 3 Kintetic Defends, 1 tank, 3 Blasters/Scrappers and a Controller is probably one of the better groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. . . the best defense in the game is still just killing everything uber fast and defenders and tanks work against that. Plus, one controller does all the support jobs better than a tank or a defender combined and with pets they do better damage output. So your "best" groups are still one good controller and as many blasters as you can find.

But that is from a min/max stand point for maximum xp/time. You can do quite well with any group mix as long as the players behind the heroes are intelligent and work well together and exactly for the reasons you just gave.

[Synfoola]

I could have sworn someone important saying that Freezing Rains from same caster won't stack. I'd like clarification on this cuz if they DO stack, then I'm 6 slotting that mother with recharge. :)

[Blaster_Zzzt]

I suspect the rule on combo debuff/buffs is...

If a buff requires an atk, it's self stacking.

Can't think of anything that violates this rule.

[Storm_Revenant]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, Debuffs stack, even debuffs from the same caster and same power on the same target (there may be a few exceptions, but I cant recall any at this moment). All debuffs stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sprry Geko, but your information on buffs needs an amendment there...

Siphon Power stacks both ways. On a good timing of shots I can stack up to 4 times on myself and imps.... and from the same targeted villain.

[Sihada]

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to clarify a bit here geko. Enervating field reduces damage dealt by 37.5% to an even level. Does stacking 3 of these cause them to heal you every time they attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably know the answer to this, and are just being silly. However, in case you are not...

Let's say the MOB's base damage is 100. Hero 1 hits it with Enervating Field. Now its base damage is 62.5. Now Hero 2 hits it with Enervating Field. The 37.5% is applied to the MOB's current damage (i.e., 62.5) and the MOBs damage after the second EF is 43.75.

[speeka]

Well, they never were clear on the SG fix about allowing stacking from a single blaster but the real change was the mistake where it provided -50% ACC instead of -5% ACC allowing it to effectively get the ACC to the 5% floor in two hits....even if it does stack now, you are only getting the 5% ACC each time - which is great if you have patience and it does stack

[Futurias]

Um, no. It's a flat add on debuffs. -40% + -40% on 100% is only 20% left over.

{Tested this several times on a CoT Boss. All Defender SG's work wonders when you have three people with Darkest Night or Enervating Field/Radiation Infection. Wiff-wiff-wiff no damage.}

[Chiyoko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in terms of strategy/tactics a bad group says "No, we already have a Kinetics Defender" and a good group adds a 2nd or a thrid. Same with Bubbly Defenders. A group of 3 Kintetic Defends, 1 tank, 3 Blasters/Scrappers and a Controller is probably one of the better groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. . . the best defense in the game is still just killing everything uber fast and defenders and tanks work against that. Plus, one controller does all the support jobs better than a tank or a defender combined and with pets they do better damage output. So your "best" groups are still one good controller and as many blasters as you can find.

But that is from a min/max stand point for maximum xp/time. You can do quite well with any group mix as long as the players behind the heroes are intelligent and work well together and exactly for the reasons you just gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with the first post, You might not need 3 kinetics defenders, but if you make one an empath, that is a pretty solid group.

-Peace

[Faeth]

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to clarify a bit here geko. Enervating field reduces damage dealt by 37.5% to an even level. Does stacking 3 of these cause them to heal you every time they attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Enervating Field does not lessen the damage dealt. Enevating Field lowers a Targets Defenses, and Resistance to damage. So you hit them easier, and do more damage to them when you hit them. It is also a Toggle, so you cannot self stack it regardless.

It will however stack from two different characters. And you can stack it with Radiation Infection as well as the rest of Radiations Debuff line.

[Zahn_Chi]

Enervating Field does not lower defense. I would guess you are thinking of radiation infection. EF only lowers mob resists (thus increasing damage that mob takes) and the mob's damage.
<stupid English, BAD language! BAD! :Rolls up newspaper:>

[BrotherNoomsy]

[ QUOTE ]

Not really. . . the best defense in the game is still just killing everything uber fast and defenders and tanks work against that. Plus, one controller does all the support jobs better than a tank or a defender combined and with pets they do better damage output. So your "best" groups are still one good controller and as many blasters as you can find.

But that is from a min/max stand point for maximum xp/time. You can do quite well with any group mix as long as the players behind the heroes are intelligent and work well together and exactly for the reasons you just gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true either. If you have 6 blasters in a team, adding just one ~33% resistance debuff is like adding 2 blasters damage to the team. Adding two debuffers is like adding 4 blasters damage. Also depending on their skill sets, odds are 2 defenders/controllers will decrease your down time through healing/end/def buffs.

I think the best min/max team is probably 1 tank, 1 scrapper, 1 blaster and 1 defender hunting in a hazard/trial zone. Let the tank and scrapper both herd up 1 or 2 groups of +2s. Bring both mobs together, apply debuff and let the scrapper and blaster AOE em out of existance in a few attacks. If there's a boss or lt in the group, the scrapper will have em dead in no time.

[Greyed]

[ QUOTE ]
By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean I should bug Siphon Power? :)

It is the same buff from the same caster yet it will stack with itsenf for about 2s. And yes, I have confirmed it with damage numbers as well as the graphics. For 2 attacks after the 2nd Siphon Power they will do more damage than the rest of the attacks which have only one Siphon Power applied which, in turn, has more than the base attack.

[NinjaMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean I should bug Siphon Power? :)

It is the same buff from the same caster yet it will stack with itsenf for about 2s. And yes, I have confirmed it with damage numbers as well as the graphics. For 2 attacks after the 2nd Siphon Power they will do more damage than the rest of the attacks which have only one Siphon Power applied which, in turn, has more than the base attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had not noticed that. I can test it next time I'm on. I might be able to stack siphon powers still. I assumed that each application was a -25% to target damage. If not, I would say it's a bug.

[Robson]

[ QUOTE ]
While folks are looking here regarding debuffs.. does anyone have any idea what the -ACC secondary effect numbers are like on Dark Melee for scrappers?

With all the +DEF and -ACC going on, it's really hard to tell what's what, and I'm trying to find out just how useful it would be to deviate from the standard 1ACC 5DAM setup everyone uses.

[/ QUOTE ]
It sure would be helpful to have that info... hell, it would help just to have it confirmed that the debuff duration is tied to the duration of the "dark cloud" effect on the target.

[NarfMann]

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to clarify a bit here geko. Enervating field reduces damage dealt by 37.5% to an even level. Does stacking 3 of these cause them to heal you every time they attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

You must not have read previous patch notes that stated that all debuffs are capped at 90%

If you reduce a target's damage by 18000000% (through any combination of powers) they will do 10% of their original damage.

[NarfMann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean I should bug Siphon Power? :)

It is the same buff from the same caster yet it will stack with itsenf for about 2s. And yes, I have confirmed it with damage numbers as well as the graphics. For 2 attacks after the 2nd Siphon Power they will do more damage than the rest of the attacks which have only one Siphon Power applied which, in turn, has more than the base attack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please note that geko said that these were general rules, there are exceptions. Siphon power will always stack with itself (6-slot it for recharge and perma-hasten and nearly cap your team's damage in a long fight)

I think this may be the case because Siphon power is not just a buff, it's a debuff as well, and one that has a chance of missing. Anyone know if Siphon Speed stacks with itself?

[Reverend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So in terms of strategy/tactics a bad group says "No, we already have a Kinetics Defender" and a good group adds a 2nd or a thrid. Same with Bubbly Defenders. A group of 3 Kintetic Defends, 1 tank, 3 Blasters/Scrappers and a Controller is probably one of the better groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. . . the best defense in the game is still just killing everything uber fast and defenders and tanks work against that. Plus, one controller does all the support jobs better than a tank or a defender combined and with pets they do better damage output. So your "best" groups are still one good controller and as many blasters as you can find.

But that is from a min/max stand point for maximum xp/time. You can do quite well with any group mix as long as the players behind the heroes are intelligent and work well together and exactly for the reasons you just gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have ever grouped with one good Kinetics defender, You'd know how much they can increase the whole group's offensive abilities. With 3? That's insane. Really, really insane. You'd be oneshotting minions with brawl.

[fragasm]

Smoke Grenade does not appear to stack from same caster. Is this by design geko?

[Necrosis]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have ever grouped with one good Kinetics defender, You'd know how much they can increase the whole group's offensive abilities. With 3? That's insane. Really, really insane. You'd be oneshotting minions with brawl.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except you will have hit your damage cap... Now, 2 kins and a Rad w/ EF will allow for the mob to take more damage than the cap.. Or even 1 FF and 2 Rads.

mmmmm, Radiation.. Glhlhlhlhhlhh...

[SixOfNine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to clarify a bit here geko. Enervating field reduces damage dealt by 37.5% to an even level. Does stacking 3 of these cause them to heal you every time they attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

You must not have read previous patch notes that stated that all debuffs are capped at 90%

If you reduce a target's damage by 18000000% (through any combination of powers) they will do 10% of their original damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! Capped @ 10% and not 25%? For EF/FR if you debuffed their resistance down to 10% you are doing a 1000% damage bonus!

4 Storms or 3 Rads should do it.

[Blaster_Zzzt]

I seriously doubt resistance debuffs use the same caps as dmg debuffs.

I'm also not entirely convinced resistance debuffs aren't delt with as dmg buffs for capping purposes. Meaning even with uber reist debuffing, you still can't exceed 4x base dmg.

[Chiyoko]

Just giving it a little bump, Can't have Geko's responses go the way of the expired threads.

[Zeppline]

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt resistance debuffs use the same caps as dmg debuffs.

I'm also not entirely convinced resistance debuffs aren't delt with as dmg buffs for capping purposes. Meaning even with uber reist debuffing, you still can't exceed 4x base dmg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that they do actually, use the same caps

[Jibikao]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, Debuffs stack, even debuffs from the same caster and same power on the same target (there may be a few exceptions, but I cant recall any at this moment). All debuffs stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

[/ QUOTE ]

How come Envenom does not stack then? Is it a bug or only a few powers like Envenom does not stack?

[Teeto_K]

[ QUOTE ]
(there may be a few exceptions, but I cant recall any at this moment)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Envenom falls under this category.

Also, you are really really late to the party.