Feedback: Stimulant too SHORT!!

[Super_NA]

Just tested the Stimulant change, that drastically lowers duration from 6 minutes to 1 minute.

First and foremost, 3 affirmations:

* The #1 goal of this game is fun
* Tanker's role is, accoding to Statesman, to be damage sponges
* Only a minority of players bother to fight Riktis, DEs, Carnies, Creys, Malthas, and Tsoos on a volontary basis (not mission related) Thus deserted areas (Crash Site, Eden, DE parts on Talos, IP, and FF)


Me and some friends were a bit sceptical about this change. We use Stims a lot to fight Riktis and Carnies. We like the crash site. Our alts like to get Tsoos and DEs. This change did not bode well for us..

Test : after a few hours on test, i think the changes are horrible.

-First, we had a lot more deaths. From the buff simply dropping mid fight, thus getting the tanker stunned, and killed. 60 sec is not very long considering we were fighting oranges and reds. Rikti Mentalist Boss, in spawn of 2 or 3 , can take a while to take down. As for rebuffing mid fight, well, if the Stimulator was under aggro, moving, out of range, or death, forget it...

- The Blaster with Stim was turned into a Stim Bot. Now, let's say, for safety, that you want 2 stim stacked on a character to protect him. That means, instead of 2 buffs/6 minutes, you jump to 12 casts.

Now, if you fight in a full group with 3 frontliners (2 tanks and a scrapper) that means, you go from 6 cast to... 36 casts!! Or, if you like, one cast every 10 seconds . How fun is that, for a blaster, to cast Stims every 10 seconds... Yay.

This is ridiculous, and brings me back to my bubbler pre-4-minutes day. Back when bubble lasted 2 minutes, that's all you did. And no one played bubblers. 4 minutes is the minimum a buff should last to be any "fun", for a must-have buff.

Back to our 2 affirmations:

- Beeing a Stim spammer is not fun
- Tankers can't be good sponges (and will refuse to be) against status effect spamming mobs without good protection
- With the current change, Stimulant is not a reliable stun protection. The few who have it will respecialize out of it and do like the rest, hunt Nemesis.

In Short : 60 seconds is not long enough to make a buff effective, for a buff that needs to be reliable, because people depend on it while choosing what mobs to fight.


General thoughts: Status effects and their protection against it is one of the best in-game group oriented feature. It makes a frontliner (tanker/scrapper) want to team with a Stimulator (or a defender with an similar buff). The reverse is true, a blaster with Stim now wants to team a frontliner to be able to hunt controlling mobs. Both win by hunting non-nemesis mobs...

If this synergy does not exist, then all go back to soloing non-controlling mobs, like Freaks, Familiy, Skyraiders, Nemesis. /yawn.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> I strongly suggest to the devs </pre><hr /> that they actually make all buffs better. Stim should be at least 4 minutes to be viable. Clear Mind, O2 Boost and Increased Density should protect from ALL effects and last 5 or more minutes.

The only thing to be gained by this is: more desire to group, players stronger when group, and an increase in players fighting Carnies, Riktis, etc.

I'm sure you datamine this, you only will find the Crash Site and Eden more visited...

[aliajacta]

Good overall points, I think. If baddies with status effect attacks are going to be an intregal part of the high level game, and status effects are going to continue to have the steep penalty that they currently have in terms of dropped toggles, ect then reliable status effect protection needs to be an integral and reliable part of the players' tools. If they are not, large otherwise interesting and rewarding swaths of the game may end up being ignored because challenge is not the same as suicide or tedium.

Without getting into debates about what the actual duration should be, I agree that status effect protection needs to be looked into overall. The longer duration of stimulant gave me some hope that this was being recognized, even if it made my primary protection, ID, seem even shorter in comparison... :D

Maybe they're worried that there's going to be problems when PvP comes out with controller type powers if good status protection actually exists?

[Ardith]

The problem with status protection buffs from what i've seen up to level 38 is that with fully slotted defense/resistance a lot of the challenge is lost if we don't drop our shields and die in one hit. So to make the game difficult instead of lowering the resistance numbers or making defense lines not quite such and all or nothing way to live it's been decided we need to be statused. I know that personally i love feeling helpless while stumbling around disoriented with my shields down and in melee range of boss mobs, nothing is comforting like dying to lag, stun effects that make your keyboard worthless, or character weakness designed specifically for huge stakes of punishment to be driven through because of our desire to spend time in an mmorpg. So right now if you want to play most of the lines you are forced to only fight easier mobs like nazi, find a friend thats up for playing one of the status spammer classes to follow you around and push that button over and over, make a status bot with it on auto-cast, or dive in and hope for the best. Currently with 3 clear minds stacked on me i'll still get stunned plenty, and this isn't even the dreaded after 4o game i read about. I know the game can be pretty easy going for the fully slotted resist/defense characters, or with abilities like invincibility that required no slots to make you god-like, but i don't feel like death through status is best option to create challenge. I don't feel like it makes the fights hard, it makes them either so risky you avoid those mobs like the plague, or its so easy those mobs are camped 24/7. The vahz blick newbies dead, smart newbies learn to never fight vahz ever and tell contacts with vahz missions to never speak to them again and we go fight clockworks or skulls.

If our resistance is too high when fully slotted and thus you think statusing us to death is the fix then by all means please nerf the shields to a level you feel leaves the game challenging and let us play, not stand there dizzy hoping something doesn't hit our melee char for 12oo in 1 swing when we have 12oo hps total, sort of hard to keep people alive when they take full hp damage each swing. I know the higher damaging mobs arent as common, but they exist and some things force us to fight them, task forces or whatever, so sometimes we do have to encounter them. If it means revamping the game a bit i think the community could survive and support it, we want to have fun, thats why we pay 15 bucks and log in to the game each day.

We're supposed to be superheroes, we're supposed to save the day, we're supposed to sometimes fail, but letting us die trying would be nice, not making us die helpless because of the status bus you want to shove into the status hole you left in our character sets. There has to be another way to fix the game.

Passive shields, lower shield % but only allowing sleep to drop the shields and the other effects to only render us unable to attack or run or something negative but not omgimwftpwned negative, there has to be some middle ground.

[Super_NA]

Tested further.
In a 8 man mission of Carnies, we had some incredible fights. Fights lasted WELL OVER 5 minutes at times. Specially fights with 3 master illusionists boss.

Many deaths due to Stim dropping.

Conclusion: without a long effect protection, it is better for a player to do carnie missions solo or duo, where you don't get illlusionists.
:( :o :(

[Super_NA]

So, only 3 of us playing with this?

I have a question to the devs: How is a power that helps fighting mobs with status effects when paired/grouped overpowered?

Does stimulant help fight Riktis? Yes.
Solo? no.
Does a team get more XP with Stimulant: NO
They get the same exp as fightning Nemesis or CoTs.

This power does not get better xp, does not create PL. It just puts mezzing mobs on par with other mobs.

Right now players have the choice not to fight mezzers: Nemesis, Axis America farms, Preathorian farms, Portal Farms, etc...

PLease, adress this.

Devs, why can't we have good, effective, and lasting group-oriented efect protection?

[Machine_Fist]

a very good point. I was actually thinking of taking up the medicine pool, since, after fighting Carnies and Malta, I feel that stimulant is becoming increasingly necessary. Why the change, DEVs?

[geko]

it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[SuperTeddy]

Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction? I don't have it on my Kin defender yet but I hear it's pretty short as well. It seems it should be boosted as well, especially considering the slow factor.

[Super_NA]

Thanks for the reply Geko.

I understand how this was a "bug".
But look at the results:
- Medecine power now becomes a good choice.
- Players can finally hunt Eden, Crash Site, and non-Nemesis Peregrine with some kind of safeness.
- Effective stun resistance has become appreciated, sought after, and used.

Maybe, after this 60 sec -6 minute "blunder" you may want to re-evaluate giving it the a comparable duration has force-fields.

At launch, force fields lasted 2 minutes, and it just did not cut it. 4 minutes works fine.

How about 3.5 minutes for stim and 5 for clear mind and ID?

[Moonbeast]

This is similar to the Increase Density issue. Not only is the buff shorter than Clear Mind, but it has the movement penalty.

It receives some resistance to smashing and energy but doesn't cover Sleep, which Clear mind does.

If the energy/smashing resistance is deemed to be better than Sleep resistance, then why does Increase Density have *two* other shortcomings (duration and movement penalty)?

It seems like the durations should be the same for the two powers and let the movement penalty offset whatever advantage Energy/Smashing vs Sleep is deemed to have.

[Paladin]

I agree with you, Venarr, on all counts. You make some very significant and valid points, something that the developers would be wise to listen to.

Geko, I want to thank you for replying to this thread. I'd like to offer that you take what Venarr and others have written here into consideration when pathing out future changes.

I've been a big fan of the medicine power pool, and I certainly enjoyed being able to buff my teammates against the long, drawn out fights with status affecting enemies. Sometimes it didn't work, others it did, but it certainly made the game more enjoyable and stategic. I realize that the change made to stimulant was a bug, but the doors opened through the change don't seem like something that should be closed; I believe it's an opportunity to examine what might become of some of the hitherto abandoned game content that you would be wise look into. As those here have mentioned, perhaps the mistake and the subsequent enjoyment/use for zones such as the Rikti crash sites and other areas are a sign that further examination of status affects and status affect protection abilities is warranted.

As one of your costumers who has been very pleased with your product, I'd like it if you would be kind enough to look into that possibility. Thank you.

[SagittaryGold]

While my tank (who has Medicine) and no doubt everyone else would probably love to have Stim a several minute long duration, considering it's potency and that it could/can stack with other resistance powers, it would just make status effects a null point. As it is, Stim is either something you add on, something you free someone else from, or a small bonus to help with things. Apply early, apply often. :) Though I suppose I'm a little out of the norm perspective since I have it on my tank so I'm perfectly able of standing in the middle of a fight and use the power. :)

[Super_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
it would just make status effects a null point

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.
But the thing is, status effects is already a null point on a player's point of view: players just ignore it.
They find the best way to gain exp without even having to deal with it.
At first it was Rikti Monkeys, then Behemoth Portals, Nemesis, now the Synapse TF first 2 missions...

I am completely fine with having some buffs that makes status effect null. It still needs you to:
-assemble a group
-make sure the group has the appropriate powers
-apply these powers.

Right now, it's a lot more easier to:
- Fight mobs without status effect.

[Retrogression]

"Clear Mind" is not the only power that should be addressed with regards to Stimulant. There is also Increase Density (as mentioned above) and the buff effect of O2 Boost. These should all last the same duration.

Clear mind to make it superior you might want to give it a small recharge rate boost as well as the status effects.

[aliajacta]

Apply early is good. Apply often is okay too...but when that turns into 'restart application cycle every 33 seconds, alternating with other buffs' then it isn't a matter of strategy, it's a matter of unfun rote repetition. Stretch that out for an hour or two, repeat every time you play the game, and it starts to be a little bit frustrating.

If status effects didn't eat toggles, I probably wouldn't be worrying. I'm *not* going to avoid certain zones or enemy types or anything because they have status effects...defeats the whole point of playing the game to only hang out in the easiest zone farming the easiest mobs. I want to be somewhere scary trying new things and generally having fun. But if I have to spend most of my time there spamming status protection, that fun will eventually dissipate. :confused:

[Tipop]

Just thought I'd add that Accelerate Metabolism also gives a resistance to sleep, hold, disorient, and immobilization. So that's yet another defender or controller type you can get for status protection.

[Starfox_NA]

As an Empath,I'm happy Clear Mind got a boost - and see why O2 and Density should get it too.

I would love if Fortitude and Clear Mind had the same duration. They I could apply both at once and move over to the next team member. This would make my life SO much easier - it is more a convenience/fun effect than a balance effect. I guess the same applies to my brthers/sisters with Kinetics.

[Super_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Just thought I'd add that Accelerate Metabolism also gives a resistance to sleep, hold, disorient, and immobilization. So that's yet another defender or controller type you can get for status protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my Tanker's experience, teaming with a friend with AM, it does not prevent me from getting effects. It does reduce the lenght. But, even if reduced to 1 second, it's enough to drop my 4 toggles (and die).

[speeka]

Why is it that status effects drop toggles? Is this not a strange, aberrant behaviour that seems completely out of place?

It would be one thing if you could just get them back when you come out of the status, but someone like my MA/SR scrapper has a LOT of buttons to push even after a fast sleep cycle (which cycles over and over and over when surrounded by 6 ink men!)

[Enmity_]

Agreed Venarr. The usage of these powers while someone is stunned is rare to none. By the time its noticed and applied, the hold/sleep/etc. is over. Which really only leaves it useful as a resistance. I'm not sure I'd go as far as 3 minutes yet, given how much it makes you resistant to these effects, but upping to 90 or 120 sec would be welcomed.

[Jumpman]

Most buffs in this game are way too short, IMO. Most things are 2 min or less. Ugh. Can we please have the average buff time upped to 10 or 20 min?

I can understand keeping powerful self buffs with negative ending effects short (e.g. - unstoppable, elude, etc). But for just your standard run of the mill variety buff (clear mind, fortitude, practiced brawler, etc), a longer lasting buff would be a real nice thing.

I'm not asking for the 1-2 hour long game breaking buffs of EQ (KEI anyone?). But a 10-20 min timer would be so much better than a 2 min timer and not overpowering at all. Heck, increase the endurance to compensate even.

JM

[Ariel_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
90 seconds?
Really?
Hmm.

So if I cast Clear Mind before a fight as a buff, it might actually work now? That is exciting.
For the last 6 months it's served as a mere curative.

[zomborg]

Geko,
It already is far worse than Clear Mind. It is interruptible, the casting time is long, you can't move while using it, and the range is very poor. It is next-to-impossible to use during combat, and its long duration is the only thing that made this power useful. 1 minute duration is an over-nerf, and absolutely cancels out the usefulness of this power. Up the duration, even to 2 minutes, and it will be fine. I understand that you need Clear Mind, etc. to be powerful, and if you look at all of the negatives of Stimulant, you'll see that it is. Power Pool powers should not be terrible, and yes, certainly should be less powerful than similar Primary/Secondary powers, but this change ruins this power.

[9783_Dollar_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction? I don't have it on my Kin defender yet but I hear it's pretty short as well. It seems it should be boosted as well, especially considering the slow factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about it - IR is awesome. The duration is pretty short, yes, but it's exactly the same as the recharge. As long as you either put it on auto to travel or queue up the next instance every time it goes off, you shouldn't have any worries. Further, it's faster than pool Super Jump.

[Briarpatch]

Lengthening the duration of stimulant is a very bad idea. All that will happen, if this is done, is that all the people with access wo two account will park thier stim bot in the zone they are working in and pay them a visit every stimduration-1minutes.

As it stands now, the duration is LONGER than a force fielders bubble duration of 2 minutes, and substantially longer than clear mind. I understand the desire to solo in this game, but if you need status protection (i.e. not a scrapper or tanker) your best bet is to bring a defender along. At level 42 in PI I see them standing around all the time looking for a group: scrappers outgrow the need for them at level 28; the non fire and ice tanks don't need them for status protection after 28; and the glass cannon blasters try to avoid having them in a team and cite a "drop in experience per hour" as the reason.

What you propose will lead to the reduction of defenders that will get to join teams--This is a game breaker.

[FizbanJH]

This guy (Hard_Target) knows what he's talking about here.

Don't expect a blaster with a pool power to be an effective replacement for bringing a Defender along.

Plus, stop calling it a nerf... geko already posted to say that the original duration was intended to be increased to 60 seconds but was accidentally bumped to 600 instead. That's a fix, not a nerf, even though it may feel like one because you have to look for a Defender if you want status protection.

Also, perhaps it shouldn't be "safe" to hunt in hazard zones as a solo or duo...? Wacky idea, I know.

Good gaming!

[Sentinel_Queen]

Hmmm, geko. This is methinks one of the better power rebalancings i've seen from ya'll lately. My experiences as a controller using the Medicine pool:

Can neither heal self nor others (interruptible) during combat. all the aoe, lack of any DEF for a troller and disturbing amount of DoT of some enemies means i run away to heal. i cannot heal teamates in battle as either they (and consequently me cuz of short heal range) or i are under fire. it's less frustrating to let them die, tp them to a safe location and rez them. obviously, this does not go over well w/ most folks.

Stimulant is the same story. the ONLY saving grace of this pool is the "6 minute bug" u introduced in stimulant. it allowed the entire team a certain amount of protection from all the status effects in-game now. there will be NO re-applying this in combat for the above reasons. have to get close, avoid taking ranged or melee damage, avoid taking any aoe damage, and of course any DoT negates the ability to cast as well. Stimulant (as-is in LIVE) makes Medicine a viable grp-friendly pool. reduce the buff to one minute and u'll see folks dropping the power left and right...as i would. there is NO way i could ever reapply it in the heat of battle. this will severely frustrate the frontline as their toggles stand a much higher chance of dropping now. they all die horrid ignoble deaths as i run away to a SAFE location to tp the carcasses to and use the rest of the INTERRUPTABLE powers to rez them.

I am an ice/kin controller. I have been and always shall be ALL ABOUT THE GROUP. Medicine seemed to be a logical extension of this mindset. Plz DO NOT bump stimulant back down to one minute. Clear Mind is STILL superior...it has range and CANNOT be interrupted. a one-minute duration will force me to respec this power because of the pain and frustration of battle-application.

[Ageis]

[ QUOTE ]
Most buffs in this game are way too short, IMO. Most things are 2 min or less. Ugh. Can we please have the average buff time upped to 10 or 20 min?

I can understand keeping powerful self buffs with negative ending effects short (e.g. - unstoppable, elude, etc). But for just your standard run of the mill variety buff (clear mind, fortitude, practiced brawler, etc), a longer lasting buff would be a real nice thing.

I'm not asking for the 1-2 hour long game breaking buffs of EQ (KEI anyone?). But a 10-20 min timer would be so much better than a 2 min timer and not overpowering at all. Heck, increase the endurance to compensate even.

JM

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they are avoiding this to prevent buff bots from being a common site. If you have played other mmorpg's you will surely have noticed a significant portion of the player base running around with 2 characters, one to do the dirty work, the other to buff as needed.

You can still do it in COH, however, the nature of the combat and the short durations of the buffs in question makes it extremely cumbersome and difficult to execute accordingly, longer buffs would probably change that.

I think what they need to do is when you are affected by a particular status power, not all your toggles drop all the time, just some of them, like a 50/50 chance or something.

[Encloser]

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

:(

This isn't normal for stimulant to last this long? Carp. My main is a forcefielder. I grabbed Stimulant in respec and now between my bubbles and stim-ing people I have little time to blast. The range, recharge, and interuptability of it make it a full time job keeping people stimulated. On top of that the interuptability makes it close to worthless as a curative. (Unless I can enhance that to zero? Which I'd gladly pay that price.) EDIT: Even when not interupted with the range and cast duration the status effect has usually warn off by the time I get it on them.

I agree Clear Mind should be longer, MUCH longer, atleast 4 minutes like a bubble.

I agree Stimulant shouldn't be as good as CM, but it already has other penalties that make it a pain to administer. How long does the average TaskForce/Trial fight last? I'd say longer than 60 seconds. Please take that into consideration when adjusting this buff time. I would have no problem with anything from 2-4 minutes, maybe even 1.5 minutes. If it goes to 60 seconds I'll have to think long and hard about whether I keep this power.

Another idea that might make it easier to palate with a shorter recharge time is allowing range enhancements on it.

EDIT: Another idea is to have the Medicine pool work better for defenders and contollers. Much like Leadership.

[Mr_Tashtastic]

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, same sort of slip as the SG debuff? Lucky you don't work in the payroll department ;) Have you had someone go through all the powers yet and check the values are what they should be? If it's happened at least twice chances are there's some other typos waiting to be found.

[DreamerAFK]

[ QUOTE ]
Apply early is good. Apply often is okay too...but when that turns into 'restart application cycle every 33 seconds, alternating with other buffs' then it isn't a matter of strategy, it's a matter of unfun rote repetition. Stretch that out for an hour or two, repeat every time you play the game, and it starts to be a little bit frustrating.

If status effects didn't eat toggles, I probably wouldn't be worrying. I'm *not* going to avoid certain zones or enemy types or anything because they have status effects...defeats the whole point of playing the game to only hang out in the easiest zone farming the easiest mobs. I want to be somewhere scary trying new things and generally having fun. But if I have to spend most of my time there spamming status protection, that fun will eventually dissipate.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the reasons I stopped running my Emp Def. I spent most of the Indy TF doing nothing but casting Clear Mind, Fortitude and Recovery Aura. The dark defender in the group ended up doing 98% of the healing since I had a bad tendancy to be stunned whenever it really was needed. And since Clear Mind locks me up for such a long time after activation I couldn't heal when needed even when I wasn't stunned. Seriously, over half my time was spent locked into the Clear Mind animation.

Emp Defs get all these nice powers and can't do a damm thing for themselves with most of them. All these nice targetted buffs cannot be used on the originator. Only the Group/AE buffs do anything for the caster.

I really think the whole status effect concept needs review. They are extremely common and anyone who can buff against them ends up being tagged as a buff bot. The tanks and scrappers have a good point about their toggle avoidance/mitigation abilites being hosed by being stunned/slept/held for even a fraction of a second.

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, if you fight in a full group with 3 frontliners (2 tanks and a scrapper) that means, you go from 6 cast to... 36 casts!! Or, if you like, one cast every 10 seconds . How fun is that, for a blaster, to cast Stims every 10 seconds... Yay.


[/ QUOTE ]

Last time i heard, blasters where damage dealers, not buffers. They should not be as good buffing as a defender, ever. Should not even be an alternative. If you ask me i'd increase the delay so it could not be spammed on everyone.

[ QUOTE ]

- Tankers can't be good sponges (and will refuse to be) against status effect spamming mobs without good protection


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a fire tanker and i have my own defenses against those status, i need no external buffs. I tought all tankers got stun defense somewhere...

[Capca]

I don’t mind that stimulant isn’t as good as clear mind, but anyone who’s played with any of the medicine powers can see how stimulant is next to worthless in it’s current (60 second) form. Extend its duration, remove its interruptability, or give it some range (at least 50). Any one of those would make it useful but still keep it weaker than clear mind and increase density. 90% of the time, anyone who is immobilized is also in range of an area DOT or getting hit with explosive blasts, making the entire medicine line unusable. This is an acceptable limitation for Aid Other, Aid Self, and Resuscitate, since they are still good downtime reducers or runaway and heal powers, but since stimulant is mainly only useful during combat, it becomes almost worthless.

[Icecomet]

I agree. I think every beneficial buff in this game (clear mind, density, speed boost, etc) should last as long as the Deflection Shield buff that the defenders get.

I know, because when I get in a group of 5-8 people, I spent 80% (or more) of my time casting density because it simply wears off too quickly. I mean, how fun is buffing density for 2 hours straight? Wow, exciting, I really feel like a crime fighter.

At least in EQ a buff would be at least 30 minutes and some, varying on what they were lasted up to 4 hours. It's just realistic because getting people to do things together isn't always a 'right now' effect. People have to AFK a lot for varying reasons and then you sit around waiting.

Someone should really look at durations of these buffs and really match thier durations to Deflection Shield's duration so that kinetics defenders can do something a little more than cast density and speed boost the whole time I am grouped.

[dead2soon]

Casting every 30 seconds or so is not fun. The duration of all of these should be upped.

[Super_NA]

As for the Buff Bot issue, just make it like Grant Invisibility: a group-member only buff.

As for a power beeing "too good" and making defender useless... Mmm, out of all the defenders ability, only 2 can be compaired (clear mind and ID), and 2 ressemble (AM and O2) so it's not like it replaces what defender already do.

Power pools are already very strong. Hasten? Stamina?
You don't see tankers complaining about Thought and Weave.

[Sunstrider]

I think the main problem is that Mez's got a HUGE increase because a lot mor mobs have them, but there are a lot of defenders who have zero defense against them. How many defenders have zero defense to offer their team against mez's? Rad? Dark? How many defenders have glaring weaknesses that preclude them from fighting certain mobs? FF, Storm, Kinetics. How many defenders actually have a solution to mez affects? Empathy.

I believe that all defenders should get a buff duration increase for every targeted buff. I think 50% is a fair amount. Then the clear mind works 135 secs for Defender, and 90 secs for controller. Grouping is fun, but being a buff bot is not.

Stimulant should work better as it still is a fairly bad solution to a suddenly epidemic problem of toggle dropping. 90 seconds seems passable. Even if the duration is identical to clear mind, clear mind is still head and shoulders above Stimulant because it can be used in battle and has a better range.

[SuperTeddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops.. meant to say Increase Density. I was doing that all day. :eek:

[9783_Dollar_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops.. meant to say Increase Density. I was doing that all day. :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. In that case, I *really* wish ID lasted at least as long as Speed Boost. :)

[aliajacta]

A quick thought on the danger of the two account buffbot thing...I'd rather have my own game experience be a little bit more fun than be secure in the knowledge that someone, somewhere, isn't two-boxing an empath to PL themselves. (Which of course happens plenty anyways.) As for selling...what economy? Once you hit 30 you'd feel like an idiot for wasting all that time.

Still, those who don't want to see it have opinions as valid as my own, but would a minute or so extra all around really suddenly transform ID or fort into KEI?

-signed, a kinetics defender who never wants to hit the #4 key again in her life.

[Circuit_Breaker_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Stamina's better over time than conserve power, even with hasten. 6-slotted stamina allows more endurance output than even a 6-recharge conserve/6-recharge hasten COMBO can. Where's the equity? Every other power pool provides a lesser effect than analogous powers in actual power sets. Stealth is slower than cloaking device, stimulant is shorter than clear mind. Aid other is worse than heal other. Invisibility is worse than superior invisibility. Challenge is worse than provoke.

Stamina is better than conserve power PLUS hasten.

Huh?

[Super_NA]

Dear Geko, Positron, Statesman, whoever.
This thread is not just about stimulant. It's about the playing field.

Lately, i've had the feeling that all the dev's attention have been drawn toward the exploiters and the solo-ers.

Is this why Stim won't stay longer then 1 minute? Fear of exploits?
Exploiters are there, they will always, always, always will be. Back in Beta, Dummy-Mobs missions were beeing expoited. I mean, for crying out loud, it's a beta! And people were still cheating to level faster. At lauch, it was hirelings (swarms and monkeys) and Prisonners. Then CoT portals. Now initial TF missions. And the more you will fix it, the more exploiters will find a way to level fast, and the more the guys playing for fun are getting hit.
I play for fun. But now hirelings are worth no exp, prisonners are not worth hunting, and CoT portals are an exp-less pain in the ***. I fear a TF nerf comming too... bleh.

Same for soloer. The game is getting tuned for them. Now with more exp per mission, groups are even more hard to find, since missions are worth soloing.

And, in a solo mission, you will face a LOT less status effect mobs. Best exemple are carnies, i can get solo mission with ZERO illusionists, while grouping gets me 2-3 per spawn plus the occasionnal master illusionnist.

So, by having poor status protection, solo play is , yet again, the best option. Adding a friend to your team will hurt more then help, because that friend brings more Stunning Lieutenants, but, in their current form, no good buffs against them.

Single target buffs (Stim, CM, ID, O2) are a way to make grouping fun, good, enjoyable, and most important, it helps make huge portions of the content fun to do. Exploiters and power levelers are already farming missions like Axis America non-stop anyways, please let the player who enjoy the ride to 50 form good efficient group to tackle all mobs, including carnies and Riktis. And if the exploiters use this to farm Rikti missions... so what? They are farming Nemesis, werewolves, Axis, and Minx mission anyways.

Exploiters go from game to game, get to last level fast, and leave. Don't waste so much time on them. Just keep the game fun. ;)

[Starsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Exploiters go from game to game, get to last level fast, and leave. Don't waste so much time on them. Just keep the game fun

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is too weak. They do should think about the casual gamer while nerfing but that does not means they can ignore the exploits.

As for stimulant, ever ocured it was in part designed to be used on no more than 2 players? Only tankers should be really getting hit by it and then again only the ones that lack protection for poor power selection

[_Zoner_]

Random thoughts:

Some of these powers should have the option for duration increase enhancers. 'Enhance Buff Duration' or something. ID as cool as it is isn't worth slotting unless you really really want the damage resistance improved.

Increase Density is rather annoying at its current 60 seconds, and its rather slow recharge time. Seeing Stimulant get increased to 60 without ID getting adjusted to keep it significantly better bugs me.

I feel that Increase Density costs too much Endurance.

Making certain buffs toggles would be interesting. Somewhat similar to DAOC approach, but has exploitable problems that need ironing out (no distance limitations, etc). All the benefit of not really being able to buff everyone (makeing the choice(s) a tough one), but removing all the pain of spending a large chunk of your time refreshing the powers.

Aside from rather special cases, if you are ID'ing your team full time you are playing the game wrong. At best a key defender or another controller should be getting ID attention from you from time to time, and only when it really feels necessary. The other special cases (Clockwork TF, fighting Energy/Smash AV's like Nemesis Rex, Anti-Matter, fighting Sewer Trial Kraken) you can't really do much else anyway and its time well spent.

[speeka]

Casting every 30 seconds or so is not fun. The duration of all of these should be upped.
-------------

yet more trash talk. So do any damage dealers use a power more than every 30 seconds? Of course they do. So why the heck should people be annoyed if something needs to be used every 30 seconds from the medicine line. Move your finger an itsy bitsy bit and hit the stupid key and get over it

[Sir_Payens]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Geko.

I understand how this was a "bug".
But look at the results:
- Medecine power now becomes a good choice.
- Players can finally hunt Eden, Crash Site, and non-Nemesis Peregrine with some kind of safeness.
- Effective stun resistance has become appreciated, sought after, and used.

Maybe, after this 60 sec -6 minute "blunder" you may want to re-evaluate giving it the a comparable duration has force-fields.

At launch, force fields lasted 2 minutes, and it just did not cut it. 4 minutes works fine.

How about 3.5 minutes for stim and 5 for clear mind and ID?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I've hunted RCS, Eden, Carnies, Malta, etc.....all without personal stun protection. It's called "strategy" whereby you use unique powersets to minimize the stuns. In my case, I used Transference to drain the END of the stunners....I've seen electrical blasters use their powers (slotted for end drain) to accomplish the same. It sounded like you wanted a 'safe' killing spree.....and that's your right, although that sounds like putting a fairly easy game on "don't hurt me" mode to me.

I know of no single buff that lasts six minutes in this game. I personally would prefer if my own Increase Density (Kin version of Stimulant/ Clear Mind) lasted longer, but even I'd acknowledge six minutes to be far too long. As it is now, ID for me is a "stun remover" and not a preventative measure by any means....otherwise, I am a "stim-bot."

But to claim you need this protection to survive these encounters simply indicates an unwillingness to adjust your tactics against varying enemy powers. I assure you....you CAN take on these villians, even solo, in relative "safety" without the use of bugged powersets.

-Sir Payens
lvl 50 Kin/Energy Defender
lvl 26 Fire/Energy Blaster
Infinity

[Sir_Payens]

[ QUOTE ]
This is similar to the Increase Density issue. Not only is the buff shorter than Clear Mind, but it has the movement penalty.

It receives some resistance to smashing and energy but doesn't cover Sleep, which Clear mind does.

If the energy/smashing resistance is deemed to be better than Sleep resistance, then why does Increase Density have *two* other shortcomings (duration and movement penalty)?

It seems like the durations should be the same for the two powers and let the movement penalty offset whatever advantage Energy/Smashing vs Sleep is deemed to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, ID has an offsetting power (Speed Boost) to easily remove the movement penalty....which is very similar to stealths movement penalty in that it's noticeable, but not a killer.

Secondly, the damage resistance is of significant merit if properly slotted by the Kineticist. It's about as effective as granting someone Tough from the fighting pool...which is considerable when you realize that smashing damage is a very common damage type in the game.

But a player that is Speed Boosted AND has ID applied is getting a 30% increase to END recharge, a 30% increase in attack/recharge rate, a 25% damage resistance to smashing/energy attacks, resistance to stuns (Disorients/Holds/Immobilize) AND a movement bonus....AND THAT'S WITH NO SLOTTING ABOVE/BEYOND THE NATIVE FIRST SLOT! Slot out ID or Speed boost, and these base numbers go way, way up. And the recharge on these powers is 3 seconds or less.

I agree....up the duration of ID to match at least that of Clear Mind, preferably to that of Speed Boost (2 mins). But even if left alone, this is a potent two-buff combo from any Kineticist as-is.

-Sir Payens
lvl 50 Kin/Energy Defender
lvl 26 Fire/Energy Blaster
Infinity

[Retrogression]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the main problem is that Mez's got a HUGE increase because a lot mor mobs have them, but there are a lot of defenders who have zero defense against them. How many defenders have zero defense to offer their team against mez's? Rad? Dark? How many defenders have glaring weaknesses that preclude them from fighting certain mobs? FF, Storm, Kinetics. How many defenders actually have a solution to mez affects? Empathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you not been reading the thread? Radiation's buff Accelerate Metabolism protects from all status effects. How is that "zero defense"? Storm and Kinetics also have buffs to protect vs some status effects. All of which have been mentioned already in the thread. Force Field hasn't been mentioned yet but... I'll leave it to someone else to tell if they have a bubble that protects from status effects or not. At the very least, the higher Defense a FF defender's bubbles give makes you less likely to be hit by the status effect in the first place.

The problem that this thread is about is giving buffs a little longer of a duration.

[DreamerAFK]

Here's an alternative to the current scheme of single target spamming of status effect resist buffs. Make them group buffs and stretch out the recharge timer, along the lines os Recovery Aura. That way chosing when to use them becomes a tactical decision. No one gets stuck playing buff bot. Emp Defs would actually get to concentrate on healing. And there would be no 100% status resist coverage; status effects could still have a large effect on groups without them being so overpowering that a person gets stuck doing nothing but buffing resists.

Yes I'm beating this into the ground. It's from personal experience doing the Indy TF. All those Tank Smashers didn't stun our tanks or dps chars once. The cost was burning me out on playing an emp def.

As for those who compare buffing to a blaster doing dps, they should consider that the defender isn't choosing targets and what powers to use on those targets. The buff bot is following a schedule and could be run by a macro if they were allowed. It's mind numbing.

1. Cast Fortitude on Teammate #1.
2. Cast Clear Mind on teammates # 1-7.
3. Cast Fortitude on Teammate # 2.
4. Cast Clear Mind on teammates 1-7.
5. Return to step one.

No, it wasn't quite as simple as that. I got to throw a heal every once in a while. And I watched End bars religiously to justify throwing RA at the correct time. 6 slotted with Recharge SO's it still can't do 100% coverage.

So all you blasters who want to tell us how to run our defenders go out there and make one of your own. Blaster is the only AT that doesn't have split priorities when it comes to choosing what powers to take and slot. Tanks have to get their resists but still need to get damage powers. Scrappers also need their defensive powers since they are at melee range. Controllers are spread across the countryside for power utilization. Defenders have no offense if they don't choose their secondaries. But the blaster? Lets see.... I need an offense. pick a damage power. I need a defense. Another damage power so they go down faster. Lets get Hasten so I do even faster damage. Eventually I will get stamina so I can do more damage longer. Face it, blasters are just that: blasters. Not controllers, tanks or defenders. And yes, I have a blaster character. I love it. It's incredibly easy to run. I've never had a door mission that couldn't be solo'd, even with the recent +1 mobs.

[WhispenCoH]

There are 6 types of players that do not have status protection.

All 5 Blaster Primaries and the Dark Miasma primary for Defenders. That's it.

All Tank, Scrapper, Controller combinations have some form of status protection. Five out of Six Defender primaries have status protection.

On an eight person team you typically need at least two defensive characters (defenders/controllers) to perform safely. Two people in the group with Stimulant shouldn't do as well.

Heaven forbid you have to actually bring some defensive toons along when you take on large groups of enemies.

[Ridolfo]

You just aren't using the correct stimulant. Try Starbuck's first.

[Super_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
But to claim you need this protection to survive these encounters simply indicates an unwillingness to adjust your tactics against varying enemy powers. I assure you....you CAN take on these villians, even solo, in relative "safety" without the use of bugged powersets

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, i hunt there myself, as a fire/ice tanker, i got enuff crowd control and resistance buffs that i can take on Riktis.

The point is that currently, you can take on Status mobs with a minimum of strategy, or take on mobs without that hastle (Nemesis for exemple).

Making Stim, ID, or CM longer would just help make the stunning mobs more in line with the non-stunning mobs.
They are doable, but would be easier with certain group members having certain powers. Just like a monster-type mob is easier with a tanker, the respec trial is easier with a bubbler, well, make it that Status-mobs would be easier with ceratin powers too.

[Sir_Payens]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, i hunt there myself, as a fire/ice tanker, i got enuff crowd control and resistance buffs that i can take on Riktis.

The point is that currently, you can take on Status mobs with a minimum of strategy, or take on mobs without that hastle (Nemesis for exemple).

Making Stim, ID, or CM longer would just help make the stunning mobs more in line with the non-stunning mobs.
They are doable, but would be easier with certain group members having certain powers. Just like a monster-type mob is easier with a tanker, the respec trial is easier with a bubbler, well, make it that Status-mobs would be easier with ceratin powers too.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's the point of Update 2...to provide more challenge to those players that seek it. If the game's challenge level is lowered to the least common denominator, those of us who have 50 will just cancel our accounts and move on....nothing left here. But varying AT's provide varying degree's of challenge. I leveled a Defender to 50, and it was QUITE challenging, especially solo. I'm levelling a blaster right now...and it's ridiculously easy to level. The differing AT's offer very diverse "game difficulty" settings.

The same goes for mobs....they all give out equivalent XP, so there's no reason to take on "harder" mobs versus "easier" mobs. You can level from 40-50 taking on nothing but cons -1 or -2 to yourself....it's not very challenging, but then again, some folks don't WANT a challenge it would seem. It's also quite slow, but then again, risk=reward, right? You want an easy time levelling? Fine, take on Nem's from 40-50, throwing about 25 werewolf herding missions into the mix. Heck, I enjoy an easy kill myself to help alleviate the grind, so no problems there. But if I want to feel challenged, like putting the game on "hard" setting, then go solo RCS or duo it with a friend. It's a blast....much more so than if they dumbed the mobs there down to the level of Nem's who just line up and wait to be slaughtered.

I for one don't want the "stunning" mobs brought into line with the non-stunning mobs, as I for one enjoy a challenge for my $15 a month. Why everyone wants to dumb the game down across all levels, making every single AT exactly equal to one another, is completely beyond me.

[SuperTeddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Radiation's buff Accelerate Metabolism protects from all status effects. How is that "zero defense"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong!

Accelerate Metabolism does not protect you from status effects, it only shortens their duration. It may be only for a second or two, sometimes not long enough to even notice it, but you can still get stunned/held/slept and have your toggles drop.

Last night three of my SG members and myself, all rad defenders, where combatting DE. With four AMs running I got stunned/mezzed plenty, though it was never for more than a second or two.

[Super_NA]

The thing is, usually, for a multiplayer game to work, grouping should provide more security.
Safety in group.
Effectiveness in group.
Right now, with the poor buffs we have, grouping just makes thing harder. Really.
My Fire/Ice tanker is a Tanker, has scrapper/blaster damage, has controller CC, and defender self buffs.
In the current game setting, grouping has 2 effect:

- The mission gets a lot harder, since i get a load more of mobs, specially LTs. Going from 3 Carnie Juggler to 6 Jugglers + 4 illusionist, 1 Master illusionnist and a ring mistress because i brought 3 friends along

- My teamates do NOT provide compensation for the increased difficulty, except healing, or controlling.

I just think that beeing in a group should provide more define advantages, like, in this case, better stun resist.

Take an invisibility tanker. He can: be an unmoving solo object, or be an unmoving grouped object... /yawn. With a good Stim, he could be a grouped moving object :)

This is City of Solo Heroes. There is no benefice to group, specially since mission exp got better. The Devs are creating missions forcing us to group, lol. Just:

-Make single target buffs better.
-Make group buffs better.
-Make Group XP better.

Right now, grouping needs love. I felt stimulant was it. Alas it's a bug, and will stay a crappy power.

[aliajacta]

Here's a sort of weird idea...What if buff duration scaled somehow with team size?

Right now when duoing my kin def, buff casting really isn't that much of a problem. But the increase in percentage of time spent buffing with each additional team member is steep enough as to pretty much discourage adding anyone else to our little team. Large teams can become distinctly un-fun, very quickly...

What if each person in your team at the time acted as a sort of multiplier on the base duration? This way the powers and ATs that are supposed to be the most attactive to a team wouldn't have to pay such a large penalty to join one...

[Astor_Empath]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 6 types of players that do not have status protection.

All 5 Blaster Primaries and the Dark Miasma primary for Defenders. That's it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just for clarification, though empaths can cast Clear Mind we cannot use it on ourselves; we're as helpless against status effects as everyone else.

[Vae_Victis]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the Buff Bot issue, just make it like Grant Invisibility: a group-member only buff.

As for a power beeing "too good" and making defender useless... Mmm, out of all the defenders ability, only 2 can be compaired (clear mind and ID), and 2 ressemble (AM and O2) so it's not like it replaces what defender already do.

Power pools are already very strong. Hasten? Stamina?
You don't see tankers complaining about Thought and Weave.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Dispersion Field? The only *group toggle* that *prevents* status effects in the game. Except for sleep which Stimulant easily makes up for for a bubbler.

And if your toggles do go down, who gives a d*mn since you still have your bubbler's shields on.

My bubbler did a little dance of happiness when the Stimulant change was announced.

[Super_NA]

I have a bubbler too. Bubblers are god.
That's not a reason to stop others to enjoy an effect. Imagine if you need a kinetic defender to get superspeed...

Fact is:

20 sec Stim: Worth having? No. Overpowered? No.

60 sec Stim: Worth having? No. Overpowered? No.

6 minutes Stim: Worth having? Maybe. Overpowered? No.


Let me explain the third affirmation:
Exemple: Last night, me (fire/ice tanker) and 2 friends (Ice/ice blaster, Grav/Rad controller) hunted in Peregrine. We hunted everything. Not just Nemesis, we only attacked nemesis for the Fake Nemesis Bosses. We attacked Malthas, Carnies, Riktis. Anything moving got attacked.

We did not have Stimulant. We did not really need it. With my Ice touch, Frozen Aura, our Controller, his AM, and the Blaster's freezing, we had mobs pretty much covered. Even Master Illusionist were quickly pinned down.

Was a good night, was a fun night. We totalled 3 deaths: One on me directly related to stun-effect, and 2 on the blaster, also stun related.

Now, would changing the blaster for my OTHER blaster friend, the one with Stimulant, made us better?
Well technically, since he can't buff himself, we would have saved ONE death (in 3h of play).
We would have killed at the same rate. We would have accumulated the same XP. Gotten the same loot.

It wouldn't have changed a thing but save 1 death.

Does saving 1 death in 3h make that power worth it??? Some will say YES, if, using that power, you do know that this death would have been prevented. But on a 1 minutes timer, meaning that saving that death means a recast of a minimum 180+ times and that there is a good chance it would have dropped anyways (red Carnies Dark Ring Mistresses are long to fight, well over 1 minute), no, it's not worth.

[WhispenCoH]

Responding to an earlier comment. Grouping in CoH can be extremely beneficial depending on your group composition.

I have a blaster friend that I frequently group with. My sum defenses and damage mitigation are staggering. My damage output is piss. He's exactly the opposite.

As a duo we do massive damage and take very little back. Between the pets and myself a fairly constant stream of 800pt heals are jamming out while the enemies wiff over and over.

Comment in another blaster group I joined:
"Are they fighting back?"

[JusticeZero]

Isn't the fact that Stim is INTERRUPTIBLE and you have to administer it at melee range (where you really likely would rather not be) two things that would balance Stim as weaker than Clear Mind? Give them the same duration, yeesh.

[Kozzers]

Verry good post indeed. Ok, I understand that stim cannot and shoudnot be as good as clear mind; however its absoulty usless now. It does not stay on long enough to protect and reapplying it mid battle is out of the question... super short range, able to be interupted. Thoes 2 things alone make it subpar to clear mind. Now we come to its other use, romoving the effecct once its applied. Again stim cannot be used because u will be interupeted or your target will move out of range. With clear mind, your can reapply it mid battle and it can be used for both pre-battle buff and mid battle buff. with both powers exactly the same effectiveness, stim is still only half as useful. Please fix this, why in the world would they nerf this thing? i think its just to piss of the few people that did take stim :/ i am verry displeased

[Akuma_Mishima]

This change moved stim off my power trays and changed it to being a useful power to a heal self gateway power.

[Xurbax]

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[/ QUOTE ]


Geko,
As one of your empathy defender L35 bumps in beta I long ago (on the beta forums) annnotated the large number of AoE disorients, sleeps, immobilizations, and holds in the game -- and the distinct lack of group/team status protects for them. That seemed to draw no attention or response from development. To me it seems a design flaw to have many ways of making people sit and stare at their monitors as their teams just sit there dying ... and no way to counter or protect from this for a whole group (without just becoming a status protect spammer of a single target status protect, which let's face it, is rather droll).

Recently I was made aware that Accelerated Metabolism has a very weak group/team protection to a large number of status effects -- but as far as I know it is the only group/team status protect that does, it's terribly weak, it cannot be enhanced up, and isn't that in the wrong line anyway? (i.e. shouldn't an empath be better at that sort of thing?)

Some might cite force fielders as having one, but dispersion field is not truly a group/team status protect; it's an area status protect. (A subtle but important distinction.) The protection is hefty, but we all know that many fights require moving outside the bubbles ... and your tankers who likely need to be ahead of the team, the ones who need the bubbles giving status protects most, are most-likely to be outside them.

Empaths call team healing the 'HP mini-game' for a reason; they spend their time targetting this or that player within the team display and delivering PBAoE heals, fortitude, targetted heals, and clear mind as needed. It'd help minimize the mind-numbing effects of the 'HP mini-game' immensly if clear mind were simply made PBAoE and its END-cost increased appropriately.

Part of what drives this sentiment about CM being bumped to a PBAoE is the painfully slow animations of it. Refreshing clear mind on someone in combat is, in fact, dangerous for those an empath is healing specifically because clear mind's animation leaves the empath 'momentarily rooted' -- can't move, can't deliver a heal, can't do much of anything except rotate in place until the slow animation completes. It's a lot like the 'must stand still for 5 seconds' problem anyone activating powers that use the phase shift animation have, and it's a problem if clear mind is to remain single-target.

With the increased number of status effects we're seeing ... and PvP coming ... group/team status protects seem necessary, as do longer durations on ALL single target status protects.

90 seconds on increase density, 02 boost, and stimulant do not seem out of line. Making clear mind 90 seconds (same as all the others) AND making it group/team affecting (much like leadership powers) or PBAoE seems reasonable, as group healing/support are supposed to be an empath's gig.

IMHO, 60 seconds is far too short for any of them (stimulant included, as stimulant already has next to no range and interruptibility as -severe- penalties, so why have it be shorter in duration, too); most battles go for more than 2 minutes, hence why 90 seconds seems reasonable, as it does leave room for risk.


Do you think you can do something about the animation times on Clear Mind? Would you please weigh making clear mind a PBAoE or a group/team status protect given the large number of AoE status effects with only 1 weak group/team status protect in the game (which isn't even in the healer's line!)?

-- Xurbax

[Geoff_NA]

I wrote this on another post before I found this one. BTW: I'm not 100% certain I have the exact #s, but it's close to this.

[ QUOTE ]
This power already had issues. It's interruptible, melee range, with a long activation and recharge time, fairly high end cost, and only usable when facing some foes, and not usable on yourself.


Before I could put it on everyone before a battle (if they had the patience to wait 70 sec for it), and get some good milage out of it. Now if the group is more than 2 people (as in myself an 1 other) I have to pick whom I put it on and it will generally wear out on someone before the battle ends if there are more than 3 of us. I can't use it in battle because of the combo of being interruptible and melee range.


So you made it almost unusable, especially when in larger groups. Your patch notes say this fixed a bug so it wouldn't be longer than clear mind.


Wanna tell me why in the world it has to have a shorter duration than clear mind?


Umm.. Before your change, clear mind vs Stimulant:
uninterruptible vs interruptible
7.5 end vs 15 end
70 vs 10 range
3 vs 4 sec activation time
4 vs 10 second recharge time
60 vs 360 seconds - now it's (90 for CM, 60 for Stim)


So stimulant has to be worse in every category before it's acceptable as a pool power? This makes no sense. Couldn't it have had the same duration?? If you have some special reason why you want it to have less time fine, but then make it ranged like clear mind so I can at least use it during a battle. Otherwise it's basically a pointless power. Good thing I respec'd to get it :mad:

[/ QUOTE ]

[Geoff_NA]

I couldn't let it rest with just my earlier re-post.

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This power used to be 20 seconds and you chanced it to 600? Maybe you did that on purpose. 20 seconds is pathetic.

You seem to be under the impression that stimulant even at 90 seconds, this would be a better power (or equal). Please disabuse yourself of this thought. It is very wrong.

I will give you that 360 seconds may have made this power more powerful than clear mind. Though I'd agree to this, I don't see why this is unacceptable. Every other power in the Medicime pool is drasticly weaker than anything empathy has already. It's not like it's against some law to have 1 power in a pool better than 1 power in a single AT. In fact most pools have at least 1 power that's more powerful than ones in an AT, or are more useful than most other powers in any AT. See rant below for more specifics if you can deal with a little melodrama.

** REM: Start rant **

Are you saying pools can't have any powers that are better than characters primary or 2ndary powers? If so you'll want to look into nerfing all the travel powers. They are better than siphon speed after all. Maybe superspeed could be a 5 second power with a 10 second activation so it works 1/2 the time, dropping you in and out of superspeed if you have it on auto. That sounds about as fair as lopping off the usefulness of stuimulant. Flight and Superjump could have the same thing, so you plummit out of the sky, and teleport should obviously have that way overpowered hover effect taken out to cause similar falls.

Hasten should of course be completely removed or nerfed into oblivion. It is after all useful now even after 2 nerfings. Lets not forget Provoke. That can be much better than Taunt. Of course Teleport Friend also would need a severe nerfing, there's nothing any AT has that's anything as useful as this. Making it only recall people who are 300 yards away or less should do the trick. It's just enough to have a tiny bit of use to it (like if someone can't get over X wall or similar). Don't even get me started on Stamina, and some of the other 4th powers in some pools. These are madly unbalanced and clearly need to all do nothing for a few months to make up for all the time they were very useful powers.

Well I think that would be a good start. Anyone else have any suggestions?

** REM: End Rant **

[Valdis]

Some thoughts:

You know, if we had duration enhancements, this problem could be really, really reduced. 3 enhancements to double the duration? Sounds pretty good to me. And there's no way that even a 6-enhanced, 4.5 minute clear mind would be game breaking. No way. It'll make life easier without breaking the game. Even a 12 minute bubble wouldn't be insane (remembering that the bubble would then have zero def buff enhancers in it). Of course, things like AoE increaser enhancement, damage buff enhancers, cone angle enhancers, and recharge reduction enhancers would be nice to have too.

If they aren't going to do the above, they need to increase the buff durations. I have a new FFer, and it is oh-so-nice not to have to deal with the short buff durations that my empath, stormer, and kineticist have. It would remain ok if they increased clear mind to 3 minutes and stimulant to 2 minutes. Clear mind is still better, both are still usable, and my 6 key won't break as quickly.

[Wesker]

Quick post to agree that Stimulant should be longer than 60sec. Sometimes you need to re-evaluate your original design in light of new information. It definetly seems like Cryptic should re-evaluate status protection and the benefits to be gained from deeper gameplay and more diverse enemies to hunt. Make stimulant 4 minutes.

[Upsen_Downs]

If anything at all, please make similar buffs from the same power set last the same duration - there is enough for us to do without having to keep multiple timers in our heads on when to do buffs.

I'm mainly talking about Increase Density and Speed Boost.
2 or 3 minutes would be nice. 5 minutes and I'd be really happy.




Make a Buff Duration enhancement or something even, so that we have to choose between duration and effectiveness... +% to duration and endurance cost. +300% duration for +300% the cost...

A Buff Duration Enh could apply to any click buff even... such as the aforementioned Stim, Grant Invisibility, FF bubbles, Practiced Brawler, Unstoppable, Inertial Reduction etc.

Some of us are tired with having to constanty reapply buffs, on team-mates or ourselves, that we would be willing to take a hit on performance to get longer durations.

And it would provide a reason to slot up some of those powers that we would otherwise never slot up, like Practiced Brawler or Inertial Reduction.

Upsen.

[Stolid]

Or just create A Buff Duration Enhancement.

.. Anyone ever thought that might work? I only read the first two pages worth, skimmed past the rest.

[Wesker]

Stimulant can take Heal Enhancements, what does that do exactly? Maybe it should increase the duration of the protection. At least that way you actually have to slot it up to get the better benefits.

[Geoff_NA]

The heal enhancements do nothing from what I've heard on other posts.

Tried to use Stimulant several times since my last posts. Yes, it's just about worthless.

Interruptibility + short duration + melee range to use = worthless

Using this in battle is about as fun as trying to Brawl a tanker to death as a controller.

Here's the excerpted minutes of battle using it: (From minutes 0-120) Oops, I was still drifting from flight so the power was interrupted, oops I'm still not close enough, oops it wore off again, oops area damage interrupted it, oops after holding two of my teammates aggro shifted to me while I was using the stimulant on someone so interrupted again. (from minutes 121-end) No attempts at stimulant use.

At least if I could increase it's duration with enhancements this could be made into a useful power (but you can't). If it were ranged it'd be useful (but it isn't). If it's recharge time were 4 seconds, it'd be useful but set me back on endurance before a battle (but it isn't)

The point of this gigantic nerf (has any power ever been cut down to 1/6 of it's original duration/power since launch?) was to make this power weaker than Clear Mind. Could you then at least bump the time back up to 90 seconds or 120 seconds? There'd be no doubt this power would still be weaker at 90 seconds (or 120 sec IMO), but hey it'd be useful again.

In all fairness, there is a use for stimulant in it's current form. Put it on 1 guy before a battle, and it will last through the whole battle if it's an easy battle and not if it's a tough one. If you have a provoking tanker in the group, they are probably the best target unless they have protection already. For me particularly, since my character with this power is a controller (grav/storm), I generally draw the Alpha strike aggro when we don't have a tanker because I have good defense (Steamy mist, hasten and Hover), and can toss out GDF to minimize the Alpha strike, so I get held/slept by the bosses (who are only slowed by my first hold). In this scenario, stimulant becomes completely useless (since I can't use it on more than 1 person before battle, and am now held throughout the battle so can't use it again).

[SolLuminous]

Definitly could benefit from an increased duration. Currently I use it on the one guy who will take the first pop shot to keep him from being mezzed to death. I will then try to use it periodically in battle but not much. I have to agree this power is really not all that great but for the all AR/whatever blaster group I am in on Virtue its the best we got.

[Storyteller]

Has Stimulant changed since the last post in this thread or has it simply been passed over as new things to argue about came along?

My proposal for a solution to Stimulant's meh-ness is this: Make it a PBAoE power that does not effect caster.

To bring it more in line with the other powers in the buff/debuff line, it should also have other changes, so it's useful, but not overpowered.

Stimulant
PBAoE, Team Res (Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize)
Activation: 6-10 (Interuptable)
End: 40-60
Duration: 60
Rechange: 600seconds/10 minutes
Range: PBAoE

Stimulant with 6 SO++ recharge and perma-hasten can still only be fired off once every 127 seconds. Without Hasten, it can only be used a maximum of every 181 seconds (1 up, 2 down). You won't be spamming Stimulant, nor will you be able to stack it.

This would make Stimulant easy to apply before a fight, but very, very difficult to apply during combat. (10 seconds and it's interuptable? Sniper powers currently have the longest activation with 6. Good luck trying to be immobile and not damaged for 10 seconds in the middle of combat.)

Endurance cost of 40-60 again limits it to pre-combat use or if you must use it in the middle of combat, you better be able to take the endurance hit.

On the downsides:
*You could have 2 people with Hasten and Stimulant slotted for recharge that alternate applications.
*You could also have the two +def tankers/scrappers in PvP who are able to stand in the middle of all combat for 10 seconds and take no damage, while buffing the whole team against status effects.
*Massive Endurance hit? What about all those ATs with access to Conserve Power now and, of course, everybody's friend, good ol' Stamina?

Hmmmmm. I've just started thinking about Stimulant, but I think it the power needs some Dev love/attention.

[macskull]

Does anyone take this power anymore?

[Obscure Blade]

Does anyone take this power anymore?You necroed a 2004 thread to ask that?

And yes I take it, to get Aid Self. It keeps people from bugging me to use a single slotted Aid Other on them.

[HelinCarnate]

Lol wow. Must be the oldest necro thread I have seen. You should get a badge for that.