A note about client modifications [Archive]

rhaythe

08-31-2004, 03:10 PM

If I understand the Map and Sound Mods they are not modifying the client at all. The are just putting files into an override folder which the client BY DESIGN uses in preference to the exisiting files if the file exists in the override folder.

CuppaJo people understand and have read the ToS thoroughly. Just read it myself to double check a couple minutes ago. But things like adding Map and Sound files to a folder that the client was designed to use isn't breaking the ToS the way it reads.

People have been asking for a definite call from the devs on this for some time now. Just pointing us to the ToS which is ambiguous at best in this case does nothing to answer the questions.

If using the override folder is to be considered breaking the ToS then it'd be much easier to disable the capability in the first place.

Could we get someone to give a definite official answer on this to clarify things before yo ubegin closing all the threads?

Rhaythe

Mapmaster255

08-31-2004, 03:17 PM

Aaaaah hah! I guess that's why my post was deleted. Well, although I saw it comin' I won't pretend to not be disapointed but on the other hand, I will understand and respect it.

Bolt_of_Steel

08-31-2004, 03:26 PM

I don't get it. If this is a problem now, then it's always been a problem. The ToS hasn't changed. So why is it that it was allowed to go on for this long without anyone saying anything? It certainly wasn't because it wasn't known about and it's only served to get more people interested. I know of many occasions where players tried to get an official response on this and were not told anything.

NinjaInTraining

08-31-2004, 03:26 PM

Very bad form, especially considering how aweful some of the ingame sound loops are. If you have both Integration and INstant healing on at the same time, virtually all other sound in the game is drowned out by the AWEFUL buzzing sound they make. How about just letting us disable looping sounds? Is it so much to ask? Or fix the really bad ones to be less offensive (and on that not fix the graphics of them also. Regen looks like PoS, sorry but that's the only nice way to describe an effect which completely drowns out your hero costume which is suposed to be a cornedr stone of the game)

Unruhe

08-31-2004, 03:28 PM

Yeah, I'd like a little clarification here... I mean, I can understand the need to keep people from getting/creating a way to exploit the game but there are several quality of life issues, as people have mentioned, that can only be attained through -very- slight modding (in most cases, the simple uncompressed override folder)

The three characters I play are AR/Dev, Claws/Regen and BS/Dark Armor...

If I have to go back to listening to targeting drone, integration/IH, and Dark Embrace all the time, I'll just cancel right now and resubscribe when it's an actual in-game option. This isn't really an ultimatum or a threat; I simply LOATHE the idea of playing the game with my speakers OFF all because of a few poorly implemented, annoying to the point of insanity, looping sounds that we SHOULD have had the option to legitimately mute from day one...

Pete_

08-31-2004, 03:32 PM

Turbine actually embraced it, some community mods were refined and rolled into the game via monthly patch. Client cheats later became a problem, but you can't forsake the good in order to control the bad.

I'm not sure what brought this on, but the client sound mods have greatly increased my enjoyment of the game.

Bounder

08-31-2004, 03:32 PM

As long as they don't ever patch the client or something to stop the use of sound overides. Can't see going back to the hum of fortitude, instant healing, integration etc.

I suspect they just can't allow posts on the boards talking about it is all. I hope. Planned on playing this game for a long long time.

TheSpyder

08-31-2004, 03:37 PM

I'm rather disappointed in the removal of the threads. It was nice being able to refer people to my thread on removing sounds rather than having to explain everything over and over again.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 03:37 PM

Well, since CuppaJo decided he'd play Mod God, I will be cancelling my account before my next payment. Thanks for ruining my experience with CoH, new guy. This turns my stomach.

I guess you have no idea how ANNOYING those looping sounds are. I just finally started learning how I can shut them off on MY computer and you start deleting threads on it. How immature and utterly unprofessional.

Mapmaster255

08-31-2004, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. If this is a problem now, then it's always been a problem. The ToS hasn't changed. So why is it that it was allowed to go on for this long without anyone saying anything? It certainly wasn't because it wasn't known about and it's only served to get more people interested. I know of many occasions where players tried to get an official response on this and were not told anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they finally came to an agreement as to how to interpret the ToS regarding map patches.

My personal take on the ToS was my map patches weren't EDITING any of the game files. It was ADDING items outside these files.

Furthermore I suspect that, in the 2nd update, they will fix the method of how CoH attempts to access the in-game maps. Currently it's overrideable by creating an external directory structure, identical to the directory structure internal to the pigg file packets. I'll bet that CoH will implement an internal only search in regards to maps.

Bounder

08-31-2004, 03:45 PM

Cuppa is prolly simply the messenger, dont shoot the messenger bearing bad news. :) I have a hunch this may be for legal reasons, perhaps they simply can't "encourage" the use of any client modification at all for some reason by letting the discussion be on the official boards. As long as we can still do what we need to do enjoy the game anyway. (within reason).

Dev clarification would be good.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 03:53 PM

Well, in my honest opinion, these client mods in no way affects other customers nor does it put any burden on the devs. It actually "enhances" interest in the game. When a moderator like CuppaJo steps in and can delete these threads on his own whim without first discussing it is in my opinion very hurtful to customer trust. In other words, it seems to me that CuppaJo does not have an open mind and anything that even remotely "resembles" breaking the rules is hereby forbidden. Even if it was all completely innocent... and it IS completely innocent. Open your mind, it does wonders.

Perspective

08-31-2004, 03:54 PM

umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

Shazzie

08-31-2004, 03:55 PM

You really need to rethink this as at the very least the removal of (at least certain) looping sounds is necessary by many for their enjoyment of the game. That is, unless your policy is to tell your customers to suck it up or just turn all their in-game sounds off.

This is a serious over-reaction for something that doesn't actually change game files in any way, isn't it?

Baaric

08-31-2004, 03:58 PM

Hmm not happy about this.. but here's what I'm thinking...

I'm thinking this might be Cryptic's way of saying. "We don't support/condone mods and as such we delete all threads about this, but we're not disabling the override feature." Limiting liability. If it's seen here it could be considered "official" and cause problems. By deleting the threads and not disabling the ability to use mods they could still leave it in that "gray area." I only guesstimate that because of the way CuppaJo is only talking about deleting threads.

I'd think if Cryptic was taking a hard line on this, they'd blatantly says stop, and we'd see a patch very quickly to disable the override. I can't see as to why they wouldn't anounce it, if people are going to quit over this, they'll do it when it's anounced or when it's "fixed." They're still going to lose customers over this.

I will not be happy, however, if they disable the override without updating the in game maps with store locations and at the very least cutting the volume of looping sounds in half. (disable would be nice too)

Succubus9

08-31-2004, 03:58 PM

There are really 2 possibilities:
#1) Turn a blind eye: Keep people from talking about it in such "open" quarters but keep the over-ride functionality.
#2) Actually disable over-ride that allows mods to happen.

This reminds me of Sony/Everquest when they went draconian on "third party utilities" and were banning peeps for quality of life mods -- like being able to run the game in a window.

IMO, a wiser course of action would be to encourage unofficial modding but emphasize the fact that such changes are entirely unsupported.

I really don't see how modding impacts the game for others in any signficiant way. It's not like Quake where painting your opponent bright orange gives you a significant advantage. The only person that a mod impacts is the person who modded the game to begin with.

Lastly, as someone earlier pointed out: the "mods" have made absolutely no modifications to the client. They have used client-supported mechanisms to change graphics, along the same lines as changing your screen resolution or gamma settings.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 03:59 PM

I'm in total agreement with paintedskies.

This is moderator power-abuse in it's most ugliest form if I've ever seen it. You think the people that made Unreal Tournament are this close-minded? Their entire success of UT99, UT2003, and UT2004 are all due to client-side mods and customer imagination... 'nuff said.

To add to this:
I was very happy with the game and the overall mechanics, community and such but as soon as I found out that CuppaJo was abusing his power as a moderator, I've become quite furious. Don't think I'm overreacting, because I'm not. I just read some posts about how moderator and dev communication were the best around for any MMORPG. This has totally turned that idea 180°.

Succubus9

08-31-2004, 04:02 PM

exactly what I'm thinking, Baaric. I seriously hope that's the stance Cryptic is making ... Mods make the game that much more fun, and they don't impact/harm anyone ... at least in this environment.

They would only get a handful of cancellations from this change, so I don't see that as a threat for them when you talk of subscriptions in the range of thousands.

Othello

08-31-2004, 04:04 PM

The reason for the success of many games, and the continued success of many games, was modability. Of particular note is Doom, and to a lesser degree StarCraft.

Any game reviewer will tell you that the ability to customize, even if only client side, is a very good thing. Games with these features always get extra points from reviewers, because they like them.

Making announcements claiming that it is contrary to the ToS is bad marketing. It's also a lie, as most mods don't modify any game files at all. Good day.

Serraphim

08-31-2004, 04:08 PM

This is really sad.

A lively mod community is the sign of a healthy game. Some games have mods that allow the player to cheat, but those are few and far between and the vast majority of mods (for any game) are benign. The TOS needs to be modified to reflect that there is a difference between a map patch and a cheat program.

Even if Cryptic adds new maps that show store locations, and a slider to control the volume of looped sounds, that's missing the point. New quality of life mods come out every few months for really popular games and stomping them down in advance is only going to hurt the game in the long run.

I was going to try to mod the Force Field particle effects so they didn't obscure my entire field of view... but I guess not anymore. Oh, well.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
exactly what I'm thinking, Baaric. I seriously hope that's the stance Cryptic is making ... Mods make the game that much more fun, and they don't impact/harm anyone ... at least in this environment.

They would only get a handful of cancellations from this change, so I don't see that as a threat for them when you talk of subscriptions in the range of thousands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess that puts them in the category of Gods then, eh? Nothing we do will affect them now since they have so many "followers". Just a few of us quitting won't do any significant damage to their pocketbooks. Truthfully, I think a great more many customers that don't post on these forums but just read them like I did a few days ago will just follow suit.

Makabriel

08-31-2004, 04:13 PM

I think what may be among the problems are the changes to hero textures and such. I remember seeing a thread about enabling fishnet stockings, and another texture of somesort..

Personally, I don't care about the looping sounds, etc. I do, however like the map patch :)

Valari

08-31-2004, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything is coming 'soon' for CoH. There is a mountain of goodies coming 'soon'. That is just how it is with Cryptic. Nothing has been delivered yet, but just pay that next months subscription because it will all be here 'soon'.

Perspective

08-31-2004, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in total agreement with paintedskies.

This is moderator power-abuse in it's most ugliest form if I've ever seen it. You think the people that made Unreal Tournament are this close-minded? Their entire success of UT99, UT2003, and UT2004 are all due to client-side mods and customer imagination... 'nuff said.

To add to this:
I was very happy with the game and the overall mechanics, community and such but as soon as I found out that CuppaJo was abusing his power as a moderator, I've become quite furious. Don't think I'm overreacting, because I'm not. I just read some posts about how moderator and dev communication were the best around for any MMORPG. This has totally turned that idea 180°.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok listen:

1. FPS are different than MMORPGs

2. CuppaJo is the messenger. Its was probably some at exec at NCsoft who told her to post that. And how the hell is CuppaJo abusing her power by enforcing the ToS that you agreed to?

3. It IS still good communication.

4. They are probably doing this beca usse they are adding most of the quality of life changes at a patch into the main game. once found, stores are added to player maps and such. that would move the map patch over the line from harmless mod to minor cheat.

5. give it a rest already, its not a big deal.. chances are the overide won't be removed, this is just a way to limit the liability. they probably get support calls from people who messed up their game client doing this somehow.

give it a rest allready.

Undone

08-31-2004, 04:19 PM

/shug

ToS doesn't do anything but cover their butt when they want to beat a user.

Sad really...

Take a hint from Ulitma Online. Start using all the programming skills that are going to tear your client apart and allow sets of tools etc.

UOA anyone? (last target, etc)

If I have to hear one more target drone loop!!! Regen scrappers as well... HORRID/Overwhelming sounds.

I'll just play on mute, and listen to metal all day. Its not like the sound in this game is important anyway... You don't have to hear bad guys walking up behind you. Sneaking around corners or anything.

For Levels = 1 to 50

with attack
.smoke
.fireball
.fireblast
.flares
end with

Next

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 04:20 PM

Fine, I'll "give it a rest", but I'm still very upset. :mad:

Pete_

08-31-2004, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm rather disappointed

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be Spyder, you're a hero to many.

...& don't pull that tired "soon" stuff Sive :p

Big_Rig, he's a she, and quite professional from what I've seen considering the environment.

The question I've not seen asked is: Is this decision from NCSoft, Cryptic, or both?

benajack

08-31-2004, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did they say this? I always remembered the devs as saying that the reason they didn't put the stores on the map for a reason.

Aporter

08-31-2004, 04:23 PM

and I just posted my mods....**sigh** oh well, maybe we can petition :/

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 04:24 PM

I have to agree with the majority of those posting here that the looping and loud sound fx are extraordinarily and extremely [censored] ANNOYING!

imvicious2u

08-31-2004, 04:27 PM

Im really dissappointed by this. The mods have helped me to enjoy this game much more. Also, there has been some extrordinary work by the community on some of these, (stores on the map, looping sounds). This seems like a ham fisted action IMO.

Perspective

08-31-2004, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did they say this? I always remembered the devs as saying that the reason they didn't put the stores on the map for a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was in one of the interviews I read, when they were asked why they didnt put stores or SO contacts on the maps because they are making so that they show up only after they'd been discovered.

VorpalKreep

08-31-2004, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. If this is a problem now, then it's always been a problem. The ToS hasn't changed. So why is it that it was allowed to go on for this long without anyone saying anything? It certainly wasn't because it wasn't known about and it's only served to get more people interested. I know of many occasions where players tried to get an official response on this and were not told anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they finally came to an agreement as to how to interpret the ToS regarding map patches.

My personal take on the ToS was my map patches weren't EDITING any of the game files. It was ADDING items outside these files.

Furthermore I suspect that, in the 2nd update, they will fix the method of how CoH attempts to access the in-game maps. Currently it's overrideable by creating an external directory structure, identical to the directory structure internal to the pigg file packets. I'll bet that CoH will implement an internal only search in regards to maps.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do that, I'll definitely cancel my subscription. I'm hoping there's another type of modification they intend to block here. I can get the same effect with printed maps, but its the principle of the thing. If it's going to be THAT draconian, I'll find something else to do with my time.

Perspective

08-31-2004, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. If this is a problem now, then it's always been a problem. The ToS hasn't changed. So why is it that it was allowed to go on for this long without anyone saying anything? It certainly wasn't because it wasn't known about and it's only served to get more people interested. I know of many occasions where players tried to get an official response on this and were not told anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they finally came to an agreement as to how to interpret the ToS regarding map patches.

My personal take on the ToS was my map patches weren't EDITING any of the game files. It was ADDING items outside these files.

Furthermore I suspect that, in the 2nd update, they will fix the method of how CoH attempts to access the in-game maps. Currently it's overrideable by creating an external directory structure, identical to the directory structure internal to the pigg file packets. I'll bet that CoH will implement an internal only search in regards to maps.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do that, I'll definitely cancel my subscription. I'm hoping there's another type of modification they intend to block here. I can get the same effect with printed maps, but its the principle of the thing. If it's going to be THAT draconian, I'll find something else to do with my time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im guessing it is somthing other than changing clothes they want to stop.

As mods a re getting moe and more advanced, from sounds to clothes to effects to maps or whatever, peopel are getting a better grasp of the en gine and the coding behind it. You can already see that with the mod that made the xp "bubbles" fill in randomly.

My guess is they are stopping it before it gets out of hand and REALLY becomes a a cheating problem, which is unfortunatly, very likely.

Kid_Flash

08-31-2004, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here.
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

CuppaJo, don't take this the wrong way, as I know your name shows up in all red and everything. But this seems like a pretty sweeping announcement to be coming from the board moderator. Can we get something official from Statesman, Gaffer, or one of the other people in charge of development? I mean to just come on here out of the blue and make a blanket statement that all mods are against the TOS after months of people using them and sharing their tips on your official boards is a bit obnoxious.

Does this mean that all sound and map mods are now verboten? Even though they don't modify the game data at all and sit in separate, user-created folders? I think we'd all appreciate some clarification "from above" on this one. Up until now the dev posts have said they don't officially condone mods like the map mod, but they also haven't explicitly banned it. I think we were all living under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy... ;)

Mapmaster255

08-31-2004, 04:38 PM

I'm curious about all the other posts that still remain which contain mods and hackz. Why arn't they being deleted also?

Aporter

08-31-2004, 04:40 PM

no, I dont think cuppajo is wrong here, he's enforcing the rules as he should, he's saying the same thing statesman wouls say as well. I've sent in a nice eamil with some suggestion and hopefully there can be a discussion about this. I think the community would only thrive from it.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 04:50 PM

Only thing is, Statesman hasn't said anything much about mods as far as I know. I don't think he really cares. Could it possibly be that CuppaJo is new to the moderation of these forums and is blindly trying to intervene and "look good" for the devs and other moderators?(I am still not 100% sure on CuppaJo's gender. Haven't looked at his/her profile yet either.) I've seen this kind of behavior by forum moderators before. "Oops! People are taking advantage of files on THEIR COMPUTERS! Let's delete anything that promotes this RIGHT AWAY!" No thought as to why people might be posting this stuff to begin with. Umm, maybe we're all trying to say something here that CuppaJo isn't seeing as crystal clear yet. We have complaints about the game. Most of us don't want to wait for another stinking update that may or may not be coming "soon". Since our computers are OURS, we would like to change some files on them to help with the ENJOYMENT of the game. Now, don't you want people to ENJOY the game? What does it matter what we do with OUR OWN PERSONAL FILES? If it's on my computer, it is my file. Sorry, but that's my logic and my opinion and I'm entitled to both. Thank you. Have a good day.

EDIT:
I guess that would apply to the power of the moderators too, right? These are YOUR forums, so you can add and delete what you see fit. Okay, fine, we're even.

Nethergoat

08-31-2004, 04:51 PM

If they're going to stomp on these mods, they'd better get their own solutions in the pipe ASAP.

the insanely annoying sounds and the obscuring, irritating graphics dealt with by these mods are a PROBLEM. These mods didn't crop up out of nowhere, they filled a very real need.

They have the right to do what they want with their game, but if you're going to come down on people who are filling a community need that is being ignored by the dev team, you'd best step up to the plate and offer a solution of your own.

I for one will be watching.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 05:00 PM

For some reason, I thought someone on the team, whether it be moderator or dev would've jumped on this thread by now and tried making sense out of it. Are there not enough moderators here? If not, I'd be happy to volunteer! :D

EDIT:
I'm wondering if being a moderator exempts you from paying the monthly game fee. IF so, I would really like to be one. Don't worry, I have morals and will talk things out with the customers before I start deleting threads on a whim. :D

Roter_Baron

08-31-2004, 05:20 PM

Very upsetting. Hopefully a slightly less curt explanation is forthcoming.

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 05:33 PM

Interesting, I had like 6 stars this morning and now I only have 2? What do the stars indicate anyways? I haven't learned this aspect of the forums as of yet. Someone please educate me. Thank you.

Xiani

08-31-2004, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please be so kind as to post a link to where the Devs made this announcement because I've seen nothing of the kind. And an "It's coming" or "were working on it" is not good enough.

Doesnt is seem awfully strange that this draconian measure to stomp out alll mod threads was enforced as soon as a couple of very innovative players came up with a mod to disable visual power effects?

Why not simply address and fix this annoying problem instead of continuing to sweep it under the rug for months on end at the expense of your paying customers :(

El_der

08-31-2004, 05:38 PM

Fortunately for the player-base of CoH, there are other discussion boards to be read on the internet. A good one is the City of Heroes Vault boards at IGN.

Electric_Ice

08-31-2004, 05:54 PM

Are you SERIOUS?

Players mod the game because ongoing sound/visual effects are ANNYOING, to the point of not using those powers/characters, yet if players mod the game to get rid/reduce it, you're going to remove threads about it?

Client-side mods don't affect other users, doesn't allow 'cheating', and is a win-win situation. What exactly is the problem? Please don't knee-jerk ToS - if it really is in there in page 23,474,467,164 it should be removed, since the only people its hurting are... the users!

Jhereg_HG

08-31-2004, 05:55 PM

After seeing client hacks destroy Asheron's Call I'm glad to see Cryptic taking a firm stance early on.

One thing's for certain about the hack community - give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Cryptic can't stop the hacks entirely (check an above post about moving to the Vault) but the Dev's at least won't condone the mods here.

Brodie13

08-31-2004, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, I had like 6 stars this morning and now I only have 2? What do the stars indicate anyways? I haven't learned this aspect of the forums as of yet. Someone please educate me. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

now your down to one :p

On the subject at hand though, this blows. Has anyone gone back into game yet to actually test and see if they still work on their own computers?

Brodie

Perspective

08-31-2004, 06:22 PM

As of now, mods still work as override wasn't removed yet.

They just cant be advertised on the forums, as its against the ToS.

As for the its coming thing I said, I found one of hem in a list of questions Positron answered, havent found the rest yet but I'll keep looking :p

[ QUOTE ]
3> NPC stores, once they are your contact, why must they disappear from your contacts once you complete their mission, it was so nice to easily target them after the mission. Will that be changed?
[ QUOTE ]
To remain consistent with other stores not being on your map. We want to make it so that other stores appear on your map once you discovered them, once this happens, then the NPC Stores will remain contacts as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Click (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=1179893&For um=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main= 1096402&Search=true&where=&Name=495&daterange=&new erval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost1179893)

BTW Stars are jsut a popularity contest..they mean absolutly nothing..and dont worry aobut only having one, every two weeks or so someone asks about them, and it turns into a "5 stars for everyone!" party :p

VVNxKujo

08-31-2004, 06:26 PM

I find it funny that some people are comparing an MMOG to an FPS. Almost all FPS games are MADE to be modded by the community. Almost all FPS games, you don't continue to pay for, and almost all FPS games you don't play on the developers' servers. The world of MMOG's is vastly different. I have to wonder how many people posting in this thread have CoH as their first MMOG.

As far as I know, most of the successful MMOG's, or exploit free ones, never allow client modification, so I'm actually very surprised that so many of you are actually surprised by this decision. I don't want this game to turn into a damn Asheron's Call having just as many bots as there are players.

As for people quitting over this, I those are either empty threats(which isn't very threateninig anyway), or those people are WAY too easily irritable. I've been playing since beta and I've heard the Fortitude, and Integration sounds, and I too hate navigating Perez Park, but jesus, I'm not going to let minor annoyances like that turn me away from an awesome and unique game. Turn down your SFX volume if it bothers you that much.

One last thing. Stop slamming CuppaJo. The policy was already made since before she got here. She's just being the first one to actually enforce it, so let's not slam her for doing her job. Why would anyone expect an MMO company to let players talk about how to do things that are against the ToS aggreement on their own boards?

/rant off

Valari

08-31-2004, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After seeing client hacks destroy Asheron's Call I'm glad to see Cryptic taking a firm stance early on.

One thing's for certain about the hack community - give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Cryptic can't stop the hacks entirely (check an above post about moving to the Vault) but the Dev's at least won't condone the mods here.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are very few client hacks in AC. Those were done with a hex editor that removed restrictions on actions. I remember being able to cast 'other' buffs on myself once upon a time. It was handy to demonstrate it to a sent and it got fixed in the next patch.

GEAR isn't a client hack.
Decal isn't a client hack and none of the decal apps are client hacks.

Decal did way more good for AC then bad. And it kept it in the open. Devs could see the majority of the apps and even said which ones they didn't like and which ones would get you banned for using (remember Revenge, the one that spammed tells to someone?).

The stuff Cryptic just stated as against the ToS aren't client hacks. Most of them are purely graphical, like the skins for the AC client are. Map patches and removing looping sounds and graphical changes (I like my new assualt rifle look) are great. Anyone comes up with a mod to rework the GUI and make it better (the map becomes translucent, the enhancement screen is no longer full screen) I will use them.

Sir_Arioch

08-31-2004, 06:30 PM

I'd be willing to bet they are doing this because players are reading those threads, then trying to modify their game, breaking something and calling the Cryptic Tech Support for a fix, this would cause undue work for Cryptic trying to support players that are clueless about how to do the midifications or that just aren't reading everything on how it is done ...

By them allowing those posts here, on their official message boards, they were pretty much saying 'these are ok to do' ...

I've worked in the IT field for a long time, and regardless of how well you write a set of instructions, you will always have people that just don't understand them but will try it anyway ..

Yes it sucks, but it's not that hard to find another place to post the modifications, like Warcry or something, some place where, if people do try them and mess it up and then try to call Cryptic for TS, Cryptic can just point out that the whole thing is not only unsupported, but is against the ToS ...

Also, they probably were not too concerned with the modification posts until it started becoming a major issue ..

Just my thoughts ..

Xanatos

08-31-2004, 06:49 PM

Knew this'd happen eventually.

Pranks

08-31-2004, 06:54 PM

I really hope they change their policy about this. Any veteren player can tell you the games that last the longest are those where a mod community exist.

I gave them too much credit it seems. I thought it was designed to be mod friendly.

Aporter

08-31-2004, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

One thing's for certain about the hack community - give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Cryptic can't stop the hacks entirely (check an above post about moving to the Vault) but the Dev's at least won't condone the mods here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are dead wrong. Here's a pic of something that is in question

This is the stuff being banned? (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=116512)

Camo Gun (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=116513)

None of the models were hacked, no code was changed only the image file was switched out. It still owrks like the original.

Now my post may be deleted, but hopefully not, as it is intended to be constructive to the topic.

on another note, I think it's very hard to screw up your system in with these, if you delete the data folder that they all go into, then all your textures will be back to the originals. if anything maybe deleting the piggs, the most you'd need was a reinstall.

-Rile

ShockHazard

08-31-2004, 07:00 PM

I'm sorry for any insults or "slamming" of CuppaJo that I have done but it's just funny that as soon as I started reading that thread about shutting off the looping sounds, they get deleted. Almost as if they could see exactly what I'm doing at the time I'm doing it. Oh God, they have little hidden cameras all over my room! *runs away screaming*

I'm back. Anyways, umm, I still don't see anything wrong with turning off the looping sounds. I know people are against it for God-knows-what-reason, but I like to be able to concentrate without that annoying targetting-drone sound loop. Call me crazy but it's not enjoyable by any means and turning them off is hurting who? Don't get me wrong here but I like SOME of the sounds that are in the game. Especially the ones that don't loop :).

It's not game-hacking, it's making it more comfortable. The people that say it leads to some really bad hacking that will ruin the game for everyone is like the same stupid people that think marijuana is a "gateway" drug. That really makes me laugh. I've had plenty of friends that have smoked MJ and have never turned to the hard stuff. In fact, they all have high-paying jobs while lil ol' goody-two-shoes me (didn't do it until after the military) is unemployed and looking for work everyday. I have a career of looking for a career, only this career is paying me "squat".

McFist

08-31-2004, 07:08 PM

You have to look at this from a realistic point of view. This game is played by people in the real world who create in-game character copies of characters owned by companies OTHER than Cryptic.

There's a HUGE legal issue that comes into play when someone publishes a mod that alters the client to exchange a random emblem to Superman's shield or Batman's logo. It already happened, and it would have happened more.

It's unfortunate that these legal issues come to play, and I hope the devs look into the idea of an officially sanctioned modding community that revolves around screened submissions to prevent people from offering up copyrighted stuff.

Unfortunately, the legalities and design complications of such an endeavor might not be worth the trouble to the devs, and I can understand that, but people posting copyrighted mods to Cyptic's official forums somewhat expresses tolerance and possibly acceptance of such mods, and as a result, I have to say that I agree with the forum clampdown.

Aporter

08-31-2004, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Superman's shield or Batman's logo

[/ QUOTE ]

Cryptic can be held responsible for something like that if they created the file, or allowed the name in the case of reserving names of heroes. But If someone else alters the texture so that only he can see it, first off no one else can see it(hence the client side), and secondly it is not crypics problem anymore. Also, If I draw a superman logo or a batman logo and put it on my computer or hang it on my refrigerator, DC/marvel or whoever cant do anything about it. I dont believe this decision is for such instances as you listed. why it was brought up and stated? Im not sure.

Serraphim

08-31-2004, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, most of the successful MMOG's, or exploit free ones, never allow client modification, so I'm actually very surprised that so many of you are actually surprised by this decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everquest allows client modification within limits. You can install third-party maps or change your UI to your heart's content. You cannot use any macroing programs or client emulators.

And, you know what? That's probably the best thing about EQ right now. Hate your UI? Download a new one. Don't like the ones available for download? Learn XML and mod it yourself.

For all SOE's faults, they know the difference between a hack and a benign mod.

Aporter

08-31-2004, 07:27 PM

I think cryptic knows the difference, though I do think they'll enlighten us on it as well. communication is good and from what I've seen, cryptic is good with communication.

Perspective

08-31-2004, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Superman's shield or Batman's logo

[/ QUOTE ]

Cryptic can be held responsible for something like that if they created the file, or allowed the name in the case of reserving names of heroes. But If someone else alters the texture so that only he can see it, first off no one else can see it(hence the client side), and secondly it is not crypics problem anymore. Also, If I draw a superman logo or a batman logo and put it on my computer or hang it on my refrigerator, DC/marvel or whoever cant do anything about it. I dont believe this decision is for such instances as you listed. why it was brought up and stated? Im not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the alowed the post to stay on their forum then it IS Cryptics problem. unless they prove they are doing everything they can, then they CAN have legal action taken against them. Same thing with website owners who allow insults to stay up, they can be held accountable.

Cyberberus

08-31-2004, 07:28 PM

Perspective

08-31-2004, 07:30 PM

CallToPower

08-31-2004, 07:33 PM

This is only my second post to these forums but I read them everyday, work can get boring sometimes. Anyhow, if this move is due to some legal reason so be it. I can understand that. I would like to point out though that having the ability to turn off annoying looping sounds resulting in me creating toons that used those annoying sound causing powers. Had I not been able to change those sounds I would not have created my characters and as such would have become bored with this game. If I am bored with a game I don’t play nor pay. I have noticed a lot of “soon”ism in the messages coming out from developers. I only hope that the ability to changes or turn off those sounds is out VERY soon for if it is not, then my friends and I will just have to find a game where we can experience all the content without being driven insane!

McFist

08-31-2004, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But If someone else alters the texture so that only he can see it, first off no one else can see it(hence the client side), and secondly it is not crypics problem anymore. Also, If I draw a superman logo or a batman logo and put it on my computer or hang it on my refrigerator, DC/marvel or whoever cant do anything about it. I dont believe this decision is for such instances as you listed. why it was brought up and stated? Im not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. It's different for Cryptic. They can be held liable for copyright violations when people do this, particularly when it's done on their sanctioned forums under their noses in a free-for-all.

Whether it would hold up in court is another story, but for any company, the risk is not worth it. And technically you're half right. If you draw a batman logo and hang it on your fridge, it's still copyright infringement, but you're protected so long as you don't claim it as your own or try selling it.

Cryptic doesn't have that leniency since they package and sell their game. If it were found to include copyrighted elements, their protections fall into that grey area, and they would still likely be found liable as they claim ownership of every account and the characters created therein.

Basically, it's not your account. You just rent it from Cryptic. :) As they are the rightful owners, characters created in copyrighted likenesses become a problem for them. While client-side mods are definitely a grey-area, the ToS must be upheld in instances of question to cover themselves. I don't blame them. That's just the way the world runs.

*edit - added quote for context* :)

Justin_Cypher

08-31-2004, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.

Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't want good maps .. excessive travel time is one of the main timesink devices used in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is off topic, but I want to laugh at this guy's reponse. Travel is the main timesink? That's a joke, right? I can get anywhere within seconds -- not minutes like DAoC, AO, or EQ. If you want a time sink, try leveling after 40. :P

As for this whole nonmodding issue.. I'm rather peeved. I honestly don't see where it says it's against the rules to modify your own client. Though, in the past, I've known this to eventually lead to cheating. I doubt it will stop anyone from modding, however.

Cyberberus

08-31-2004, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.

Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't want good maps .. excessive travel time is one of the main timesink devices used in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll assume this is your first MMORPG and let that slide. ;)
But take my word for it, dont play SWG or Everquest or WoW if you think CoH has bad travel time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your assumption, like most assumptions is wrong. I did not say they were bad ... I said they are excessive, as per design. There are worse games without a doubt.

NinjaPirate

08-31-2004, 07:59 PM

People, can't you read between the lines?

Prior to this, the Devs have been fairly consistant about not really minding things like the map patch or the looping sound patch. And saying so on the forums and elsewhere.

From a Customer Servivce, Tech Support, and Legal Department view point, THIS WAS A HUGE FRICKIN MISTAKE.

You start saying it's Okay to modify the client, and suddenly you WILL get a major increase in complaint calls and workload to CS because so-and-so broke their game by applying a third party hack. Tech support gets swamped with trying to figure out what is an actual bug and what is the result of a hack, because in general most bug reports aren't all that clear. And god forbid someone makes a porn or worse mod and then can point at the forums to say, "Hey, the devs support this stuff!" - that is a legal nightmare just waiting to happen.

This is why from DAY ONE the company line should have been to not publically voice ANY allowance of third party hacks or mods, no matter HOW benign they are. Even if they privately liked the mods or aren't going to do anything about ones they see, THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE SAID SO IN PUBLIC.

And this? I'm pretty sure this is them realizing all this and pulling back to the sensible position of publically disavowing any player mods. I would not be suprised if nothing at all is done to folks that have "safe" mods to their game.

-np

Mr_Samurai

08-31-2004, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's different for Cryptic. They can be held liable for copyright violations when people do this, particularly when it's done on their sanctioned forums under their noses in a free-for-all.

Whether it would hold up in court is another story, but for any company, the risk is not worth it. And technically you're half right. If you draw a batman logo and hang it on your fridge, it's still copyright infringement, but you're protected so long as you don't claim it as your own or try selling it.

Cryptic doesn't have that leniency since they package and sell their game. If it were found to include copyrighted elements, their protections fall into that grey area, and they would still likely be found liable as they claim ownership of every account and the characters created therein.

Basically, it's not your account. You just rent it from Cryptic. As they are the rightful owners, characters created in copyrighted likenesses become a problem for them. While client-side mods are definitely a grey-area, the ToS must be upheld in instances of question to cover themselves. I don't blame them. That's just the way the world runs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen to that

Aporter

08-31-2004, 08:19 PM

Well if what it comes down to is using copywrited stuff, they could just ban the act of spreading copywritten stuff. I'd be fine with banning superman textures and such, but banning the xp GUI mod I made or banning the altering of a sword into a golden sword? I dont see that as breaking any legal copywrite rules.

Mr_Samurai

08-31-2004, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well if what it comes down to is using copywrited stuff, they could just ban the act of spreading copywritten stuff. I'd be fine with banning superman textures and such, but banning the xp GUI mod I made or banning the altering of a sword into a golden sword? I dont see that as breaking any legal copywrite rules.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is that it would become very hard to police which mods are being created, and which are legal and which are not, and on and on. The fact that we were posting them on the official boards created a potential legal liability, which resulted in them being deleted. I'm sure that many of the developers would or do support modding, but when legal issues come into play, devs have no choice but to crack down on them.

Aporter

08-31-2004, 08:45 PM

Well, hopefully we dont need to go underground. theres a solution to every problem, hopefully the devs can find a way to allow modding of the game.

Unruhe

08-31-2004, 10:18 PM

One major thing that kind of relieves some of the pain felt by this swift announcement...

Update 2 is on test, and in it looping sound effects last for all of 2 or so seconds, then fade to silence.

This makes the client-side modding a lot less required, at least to me. Very nice, the only problem is that it scares the crap out of me when I zone cause they kick in for their two seconds then go mute again, but no big deal.

xxxxx

08-31-2004, 10:22 PM

I havn't had a problem with the sounds, but the map patch has greatly increased my quality of life. It would be very sad if that were overwritten. One way or another i'm going to have maps that show where the stores are, because running aaround trying to find them without a map is a simple time burner. I dont pay my money to wonder around the streets looking for stores. And if sounds were irritating to me, and there was a way to get rid of them, I'd use them in a heartbeat. As has been mentioned by several other people, this isn't trying to exploit anything, this is just improving the game. And obviously if it caused an issue I wouldn't hold CoH responcable unless they caused the issue with the patch intentionally.

IX_LedMirage

08-31-2004, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here. (http://www.plaync.com/help/eula_coh.html)
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

So overriding an in-game sound file with one that is lower volume because the original one gives me headaches due to it's repetitive loud low frequency is against the Terms of Service?

What's next, banning accounts for using custom OGG audio files?!?

I don't like this at all, much less the tone of it.

Coffin

09-01-2004, 12:23 AM

*sigh* the mentioned client side modifications are not made to abuse game mechanics, they are there so we can actually see our characters

CoH is a great game, and Cryptic Studios is doing a great job at running this game. I can understand it if links to client side modifications won't be allowed on the official forums, but if the client side override gets disabled, that will piss me off.

Frankly, there is no way to prevent people from running things on their pooters, so even if the override was disabled, I am sure there would be a way to re-enable it using a *cough* 3rd party utility.

I hope Cryptic decides to take a look at the mods so everyone can enjoy the pleasures of being able to see their hero or fighting without going deaf inthe process.

(Seriously, what was the art team thinking when they designed powers like dark embrace or integration? Or the targeting drone? I want to bang my head against the monitor after 5 mins with any of those on.)

Intel_Inside and other people have spent their time trying to improve our gameplay experience, they shouldn't be punished for doing that.

Azrail_NA

09-01-2004, 02:06 AM

I love the map patch and the looping sounds mods as much as anyone; heck, I'd probably have given up teaming with Force Field and Empathy defenders if I hadn't been able to quiet down some buff sounds.

What I'm *guessing* is going on here is that modding is suddenly really taking off, especially re-texturing, raising the specter of:
- Copyright infringements, as others have pointed out in this thread. Can we say "Freedom Force"?
- How long before the first EVRY HERO NEKKID MOD? Remember what Richard Garriot(?) said to Statesman, "first thing players do if they can move stuff is spell f**k"
- Conflicting mods/elements of mods could cause players problems; yes, the vast majority of mod users would know what they're doing and take full responsibility, but you know the helpdesk is still gonna get calls...

So while it's Draconian, as a short-term measure, I don't see they've got much choice other than to say "modding - NO!" on the *Official* forums. Maybe it was a bit abrupt, and hopefully a slightly longer/more explanatory announcement will follow, but I'm sure things are plenty hectic with Issue 2 hitting the test server.

Again this is entirely an assumption on my part (and we all know what happens with assumptions), but I'd be fairly surprised if there's a heavy crack down on extrenal mod sites; indeed I suspect tacit approval for things like the map patch and looping sounds update, if nothing else than as a stop-gap measure until they can get a proper fix, as they seem to be doing with Issue 2.

But I'm entirely guessing, presuming and assuming here; I'd really suggest giving it some time to see how things pan out before throwing around accusations of fascism and threats to quit (yeah, I know, that's not how things are done on the boards...)

Nova_Ankh_NA

09-01-2004, 03:33 AM

For what I understand, Cryptic is only officially protecting itself from possible infringement.

It is normal for them to take this route and not allow anymore mod thread on their official forum. To let those thread exist here would be a damocles sword.

As far as I know this happened in other MMORPG too. It was the same story with some third party utilities.

Mod patch will still continue to exist though, but won't be tolerated here. That 's all.

just don't be mad at that or at CuppaJo (a mere messenger). Laws sometimes are not funny, but put yourself in their shoes.

(some other laws take on my nerve too, but that is life)

Though, an other problem would be if they stop the nice feature that allows you to add override files. I guess they do not plan such a mod, like they do not plan to remove the coh_demo feature. THey would only shoot themselves a bullet in the foot :)

Valari

09-01-2004, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
- How long before the first EVRY HERO NEKKID MOD? Remember what Richard Garriot(?) said to Statesman, "first thing players do if they can move stuff is spell f**k"

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't think that would matter. The potential problems by allowing people to distribute copyrighted images on their forums I can see, but who cares if someone wants to make CoH full of nekkid pr0n stars? The mod only makes it visible on the comp it is on.

I know AC had a few mods like this, one that turned people into aliens, one that gave them real peoples faces, and one that made female avatars naked. No biggie, just don't post SS's.

Perspective

09-01-2004, 07:44 AM

Its just them taking their official stance for legal reasons. The can't ban for doing it (mostly because they cant tell who is..but I digress..)

All they are doing is deleting post s, not banning accounts.
Like I said before, it has a reason, let it drop ;) especially because sounds are fixed in issue two. Soon enough for you :p

EmeraldSky

09-01-2004, 07:54 AM

* Many continuing sound effects now fade.

That's taken from the patch notes for Issue #2 on test. See, the devs do listen to the players.

Also remember, that even if you change your client with something as harmless as the map mod you guys are talking about, that could be mistaken by other users as giving an unfair advantage to someone else in the game. Players in MMO's really hate that unfortunately.

ciphertazsi

09-01-2004, 08:05 AM

I am going to miss my in game maps... Please for the love of god either do it for us, or allow us to place a flag on the map and label it.

With most mods I can totally understand but maps..... come on robust in game map or allow moding please.

NinjaPirate

09-01-2004, 08:06 AM

Perhaps my last post here was too long winded. Okay. Here goes.

Cryptic is taking this stance to avoid potential trouble, not because they are being mean.

They just want to get an official stance that they can point at if there is trouble.

That's all. In all probability, unless you are making hacks that interfere with anything server-side, you probably won't get smacked.

You just can't talk about client modifications here.

-np

Xiani

09-01-2004, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
* Many continuing sound effects now fade.

That's taken from the patch notes for Issue #2 on test. See, the devs do listen to the players.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do?

What about the annoying visual power effects?

IMO, These annoying visual effects are a greater problem than the looping sounds. Atleast we could turn down the volume and do away with the sound effects. No such luck with these annoying visual effects.

A large portion of the player base has been begging for a toggle to disable these annoying visual power effects for sometime. To date, nothing has been said, much less done, about it.

Nearly all of my 70+ posts on these boards have been fighting for fixes pertaining to my MA scrapper powers and kick animations, and issues pertaining to these annoying visual power effects. They've addressed our kicking animations, and for that I'm thankful. So now I turn my efforts to these very annoying visual power effects.

The sooner they address this issue, the sooner I spend less time posting on these boards, and more time playing the game.

Isnt that incentive enough :)

CuppaJo_NA

09-01-2004, 11:53 AM

I am sorry my original post was so short. Let me clarify.

From the TOS 3. LICENSE TO USE:

[ QUOTE ]

You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software for profit; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service;

[/ QUOTE ]

The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.

There are several reasons for this beyond the fact it breaks the TOS. Let's say an evil haxor makes a mod and hides a trojan in it which is installed when you mod the client and it was posted on our boards. What a nightmare that would be.

Also, as mentioned in the thread, this generates support calls. Saying you do not support this is much harder when it is all over your message boards.

Another snag - What if someone offers a mod that allows you to have a superman logo on your chest? Sure, it may only be on your box, but if we allow a link to that then we are kind of giving "consent" and could open a can of worms.

Now, my jurisdiction is the message boards and I will enforce our TOS on these boards. I am not aware of any plans to change the client in such a way as to make it impossible or harder to actually do these modifications.

Due to resource constraints we were unable to take the time needed to enforce these issues, but now that we have the resources we are enforcing them. Like I stated before: Part of my job is to enforce the TOS and the message board rules, not to go out on other boards and enforce the TOS there.

Again, I am sorry for the confusion. I hope this clears things up.

Succubus9

09-01-2004, 12:04 PM

Thank you so much for the clarification, CuppaJo.

With that out of the way ... I personally don't have a problem with them banning discussion of the mods in an official capacity, so long as the functionality to do them remains in place, allowing those of us who know what we are doing to continue to have fun tweaking our characters.

Time for modding discussions to go elsewhere.

Shikamaru_NA

09-01-2004, 12:21 PM

Sooooo, basically, we can probably mod our clients to our heart's contents (so long as it's not blatently cheating), we just have to DISCUSS those mods anywhere but on the official boards. Got it (not that I ever have or will mod my own client, I'm just curious about this discussion).

ToastGodSupreme

09-01-2004, 12:26 PM

So why don't you say it clearly:

NO MODS ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BOARDS DUE TO LEGAL ISSUES.

Not a big deal, we'll go elsewhere, other forums to get our mods. I'm sure a mod site/community will spring up. Don't go scaring people into thinking that no longer will we be able to silence sounds and garbage.

And in response to Issue 2 fading them. Don't care. STILL GOING TO MUTE THEM. I don't want TD to have a sound. Or super speed, or force field. I can CLEARLY see them in action. Do not need an audio reminder.

NobodyUKnow

09-01-2004, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry my original post was so short. Let me clarify.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have one question.

Was this change in policy regarding the boards directed by your superiors, or are you doing this unilaterally?

Because if you're doing it unilaterally, I urge you to obtain clarification and direction from those superiors.

If they told you to do it however, by all means have at it!

Kid_Flash

09-01-2004, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as an FYI Cuppa Jo, people are generally adding NEW files in a separate folder (i.e., maps and blank sounds). They are not actually modifying, opening, or touching the original files in any way. In other words I can make a map from scratch, in Photoshop, and put it in a folder which the game can see, and I haven't modified ANY game data. None. Zero. Zilch.

Now of course you guys can interpret the TOS however you see fit. Microsoft routinely includes things in their TOS which would never be enforceable in any court of law. However, it's your game and your playing field, so if you say we can't discuss making our own maps here then so be it. I just think it's important to clarify that things you're calling "mods" aren't actually modifying any game data.

_Pax_

09-01-2004, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as an FYI Cuppa Jo, people are generally adding NEW files in a separate folder (i.e., maps and blank sounds). They are not actually modifying, opening, or touching the original files in any way. In other words I can make a map from scratch, in Photoshop, and put it in a folder which the game can see, and I haven't modified ANY game data. None. Zero. Zilch.

Now of course you guys can interpret the TOS however you see fit. Microsoft routinely includes things in their TOS which would never be enforceable in any court of law. However, it's your game and your playing field, so if you say we can't discuss making our own maps here then so be it. I just think it's important to clarify that things you're calling "mods" aren't actually modifying any game data.

[/ QUOTE ]
But you have altered the end product of what the software produces - ie altering the software. You don't have to actually affect the code or resource files to alter software. Anywhoo, you can do it, you're not supposed to, so you can't link to the changes from their web site. Fair enough.

Aporter

09-01-2004, 01:07 PM

In the process of modding you DO open up and extract textures made by Cryptic and then modify them. that is a break in ToS.

Thank you CuppaJO for your responce :) I know the tied hands feeling all too well and feel you on this one :)

EmeraldSky

09-01-2004, 01:11 PM

Also, it leaves the door open for viruses to be spread. I used to play Jumpgate and there was a problem where a player had created something "for the community" to use to help with the game, and it turned out to be a virus that he was spreading because he was about to get banned or was sick of the game or something like that. The exact details are sketchy merely because it was so long ago, but you get the idea.

Here's another perspective...

Let's say someone created a mapping program that worked great, but behind the scenes was stealing your keystrokes to get your user name and password to the game. Things like that would and may possibly happen if Cryptic allows mods here.

Zodnom

09-01-2004, 03:21 PM

Better take out those binding threads..
I've seen someone make threads about modifying some text files in the coh folder, to make custom commands!

Oh, the horrors of it all!

Better take out the entire faq/guide forum alltogether. You just never know what those crafty users are gonna think of next...
Wouldn't want anyone getting any ideas in their heads, now would we?

Tipop

09-01-2004, 03:57 PM

There is a map mod on mapquest that is entirely hand-crafted. It didn't take any files from the game at all, and thus does not violate even the most strict interpretation of the TOS. (The TOS specifically refers to modifying any game files.)

However, the point of this thread is *not* that Cryptic doesn't want people using mods. That isn't the point at all. They simply don't want to be seen, in any legally arguable manner, to be supporting them in case someone does Something Bad (tm) that damages someone else's computer.

So I doubt they're going to do anything so offensive to the player base as to prevent people from using them. They're just covering their collective heinies from potential legal troubles down the road.

TheUnnamedOne

09-01-2004, 05:09 PM

Well, since it's all wrapped up and done, where exactly are we going to discuss the mods now that we can't do it here? Any good forums? I checked IGN's CoH board and that was too cluttered for my tastes.

Roter_Baron

09-01-2004, 05:29 PM

Thank you for the clarifications.

Derge

09-01-2004, 07:34 PM

Just a few points to posters (all).

It has always been against the tos. Cuppa did mention they were unable to mod the boards like they wanted to because of time constraints.

Editing the legitimit binds does not interfere with the tos in any way as long as you follow the guidelines as posted by Cryptic because this is an intended feature and in fact there are in game docs to help with this..

Cuppa was hired to do this job and was nice enough to give us a heads up that what transpired before she was here to do a job was not going to go on.

Don't hate the messenger. She's got a job to do and folks she answers to not happy with how she does things let her bosses know politely and don't take it personal as I really doubt she does.

I am not saying I agree with every things she does nor that I like or dislike it. I do understand that there is a new sheriff in town and she is trying to let us know she will do what her job description outlines her to do. In the end most of us do the same daily as we do our jobs as we interpret our job descriptions.

SagittaryGold

09-02-2004, 12:54 AM

Where? I will be, more than likely unless something else about the issue pops up (or I get something from -my- bosses), be making an Tweak forum over at coh.warcry.com. However, it'll be basically like what Cuppa has here: Use at your own risk and don't come running to us or Cryptic if it breaks something. :)

Jagged

09-02-2004, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here. (http://www.plaync.com/help/eula_coh.html)
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bad decision. Many games support modding to some degree or another. The map patch was a great addition.

I hope Cryptic review this position in the near future.

TheSpyder

09-02-2004, 04:19 AM

** Please note that I love modding the game, I've started and added to many posts on the topic. I'm just making an observation here **

[ QUOTE ]
There is a map mod on mapquest that is entirely hand-crafted. It didn't take any files from the game at all, and thus does not violate even the most strict interpretation of the TOS. (The TOS specifically refers to modifying any game files.)

[/ QUOTE ]

To this statement, and all others of this type, you missed section c that CuppaJo posted:

[ QUOTE ]
(c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service;

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative. Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

Cheers,

The Spyder

Steel_Guardian

09-02-2004, 04:37 AM

Every client-side patch or mod serves the purpose of keeping a player playing by bettering the game in his/her eyes. If the game was perfect none of them would be necessary. There should be a way to customize your power's sounds in game, so they don't give the player a headache. The maps should have a way to alter them so a player can mark important locations (like stores, or paths in that obnoxious perez maze) permanently. Looks like Cryptic should thank these folks for bettering the game, and keeping many players interested(I know folks who would've quit by now if they had to listen to that [censored] targeting drone noise ad infinitum). Cryptic should integrate their ideas into the core product for everyone to use, instead of blowing them off like this. Poor form indeed!

NinjaPirate

09-02-2004, 06:08 AM

One. More. Time.

If you make a map mod or the like...

CRYPTIC DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

So don't discuss it here.

That is ALL.

See my earlier posts on the subject if you want to know why, I'm tired of repeating myself.

-np

AllButTank

09-02-2004, 06:59 AM

Thank you for posting a clarification. This is exactly what I had asked for 2 1/2 months ago when the sound mods started being used to kill the annoying sounds (and the newly introduced sounds of mouth-breathing females. /shudder).

I understand the company position, and agree that it is the only one you can take in our legal environment. I do hope, however, that we will have better control over game sounds from the client side, and/or you have the 'fading-sound' code fully implemented soon.

But again, thank you for the clarification.

Zodnom

09-02-2004, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here. (http://www.plaync.com/help/eula_coh.html)
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bad decision. Many games support modding to some degree or another. The map patch was a great addition.

I hope Cryptic review this position in the near future.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're entitled to their decision, but I think they've got a bad attitude about it.
Going all nazi on the boards about it isn't the best idea, PR wise...

TheAnimal

09-02-2004, 07:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what brought this on, but the client sound mods have greatly increased my enjoyment of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I bet all the people asking for official response on the map and sound mods. Someone company rep trying to help out pushed to get an answer from the wrong high muckitymuck to get an answer and got back "are you crazy? no mods are allowed at all". Always be careful how you ask questions. Should've been asking if the override folder for sounds is a supported feature that will stay. Avoiding the word "mod" like the plague. Sounds dumb, but different wording often gets different answers.

As for maps, well they have mentioned that they want to add it for stores that you have found:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Number=1179893&bodyprev=#Post1179893

They don't want everyone to just get the location of stores for free and they most definitely will consider having the PP mazes on maps a cheat mod.

Makabriel

09-02-2004, 07:46 AM

And to back up Spyder's comment:

So create your brand new Broadsword graphic, name it my1337bs.jpg and put it in the data folder and see where it gets you.

Nowhere.

You must follow a certain naming convention, programmed into the game, in order to have these files work. It will look for those files to replace once the game boots up.

So in the end, you have to replace files in the game, files that are packed somewhere else, in order to get the desired effect. Thus, you are breaking TOS by modifying the game.

TheUnnamedOne

09-02-2004, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're putting too much leeway into the phrase "derivative works." Yes, editing a map is derivative. Making a map by hand copying the layout of fictional content in the game is derivative. Also, EDITING an existing graphic or sound that comes with CoH is derivative.

Making an ORIGINAL sound file or texture file is NOT derivative of the CoH Software or Content simply because you play or display it inside the game client software. That's like saying that ANY graphic you view with ACDSee or IrfanView is derivative of that software or that a homemade recording of my daughter's piano practice is derivative of WinAmp simply because I use it to play it back.

Textures might be derivative simply because you'd have to make it fit over top of the 3D model which you would have to derive the proper dimensinos from protected content. On the other hand, simply making an empty or transparent texture file to cause an in-game graphic (like Force Fields) to NOT show up isn't derivative.

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just dumbfounded at this statement. Cryptic has specifically put the feature in the game to load alternate files, they just never documented it. They've had threads on their own forums for months detailing the exact method to do just that.

In a similar situation, during beta someone found out pretty much all the command line switches you could use with CITYOFHEROES.EXE and posted them to the forums, including one that let the program remember not just your Login Name but your Password as well. Cryptic read that thread, quickly posted that they would be removing those options, and the very next patch a day or two later the CITYOFHEROES.EXE file could not do those things anymore. Precedent has been set: they knew the features were there, and when they found out the users knew about and were using those features that they did not want being used, they disabled them in a quick and timely manner.

They've known about the users using the external files capability for MONTHS and have not done anything to prevent us from using it. That sets another precedent that they don't consider it "against the rules" because they have an EASY fix for it but have decided to NOT fix it. I'm pretty sure that it's technically too late for them to actually consider this a ToS violation anymore and their only real recourse would be to forcibly turn off the feature of the software. Otherwise this is simply using the software how it was SPECIFICALLY AND PURPOSEFULLY DESIGNED TO BE USED.

Zodnom

09-02-2004, 03:45 PM

I'm guessing they've got their own map changes coming down the pike, and don't want us troublemakers discussing the impact their changes would have on our changes, and so on...

Zero_Oblivion

09-03-2004, 05:53 AM

I wondered when this was coming. Making modifications to the client in most games like this is a serious no-no.

cigar3tt3

09-03-2004, 11:19 AM

i'm disappointed that the custom maps are against the ToS, but i fully understand the decision.

these things can get outta hand very easily (i've played AC, so maybe i'm biased).

SixOfNine

09-03-2004, 04:58 PM

CYA NIMBY

So what the is the addy for the unofficial coh mod website?

FordPrfct

09-03-2004, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wondered when this was coming. Making modifications to the client in most games like this is a serious no-no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe people are failing to understand.

If I add, for instance, "Hippie_Dye_Cowboy-El_Vuelo_Del_La_Iguana_Azul.ogg" to a particular folder, and give it the right name, I hear it at times when people whip out a boombox.

THIS CHANGES THE CLIENT IN NO WAY.

All the files that were part of the client are still there. I have not modified, decompiled, extracted, derived from, reproduced, modified, distributed, displayed, or in any other way altered a single file that was part of the client install. And since I obtained the music file legally (it was given to me by one of the band members that I knew), that isn't an issue either.

And as for Spyder's claim that my computer's memory somehow magically becomes part of the "software" when I run the game, I call BS.

Does that mean that if it swaps out to the hard drive, that my hard drive becomes part of the software as well?

What about the textures that are cached in the video card? Is my video card now software?

Finally, to those who say that any modification to games, display, etc are bad, I would like to refer them to the mod support in Dark Age of Camelot: Trials of Atlantis. The devs decided to permit modifications and skinning of the UI, published extensive documentation on exactly how to do it, and continually updated it. Did this make cheats more likely? No. Did it make the game more usable, and enjoyable? YES!

If you are trying to punish cheaters, then nobody will complain. If, however, you decide to punish everybody, on the grounds that a couple of them *might* cheat, expect resistance. Refer to the complaints about the 9,999 influence limit, supposedly to curb sale of influence on eBay. It didn't stop it. It just made it more annoying to the people that had legitimate cause to trade large amounts of influence.

Blocking us from talking about benign mods won't stop cheaters. If they found a way to cheat, I guarantee they wouldn't post it here anyway. So all you are doing is stopping the legitimate modders, and people who are trying to improve their gaming experience.

Bah. At this point, I am just rambling. I'm out.

TimeLord

09-04-2004, 08:28 AM

This is just a side note about people ranting about how Cryptic/NCSoft are saying things are to be happening "soon", and this is CLEARLY not "soon" enough! Let me tell ya, folks...go play SWG, and let me know what kind of response you get from Those On High. There are bugs in that game that have been there since launch...and are still resting comfortably right where they are. Professions that are flat BROKEN, and everyone KNOWS they're broken...but they're in no rush to get them fixed. (Smuggler, anyone? Squad Leader?) Cryptic/NCSoft is taking their sweet time in releasing updates & patches, and by god, LET THEM!!! I played SWG for a year before throwing in the lightsaber, and during my tenure, "patch" became synonymous with "new & inspiring manner in which our software will crash your computer". CoH is (in my admittedly little experience) 110% more stable in comparison, and if all their releases continue in this vein, then I shall forever remain a willing and cheerful slave to Statesman's "soon".

Now, as far as mods go, I admit I don't know jack about 'em and will shut up and move on. :)

TiaMaster

09-04-2004, 09:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is a trip...any real modder knows the games he can mod or canNOT mod. They must analyze the ToS and expressly follow it to the letter. Apparently he either doesn't care to understand or truly isn't capable of understanding the wording here.
A client side mod that shows a pron pic instead of the Perez map is not a derivative. It's a pron pic. Likewise, the crafted map(s) are also not derivatives. Is my desktop wallpaper a derivative of Windows (or whatever)? Editing a pic file of an in-game logo or something is a good example of derivision of software. Replacing a picture of a star with your hand flipping the bird is not. THIS FUNCTIONALITY IS BUILT INTO THE SOFTWARE. However if this war of people who want to destroy mods or kiss dev @ss keeps up, they will most likely remove this functionality.
Do these people understand that modding MAKES OR BREAKS games???

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

Cheers,
The Spyder

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy HELL this guy can spit some crap. Tell you what...anyone who believes this simply go to the nearest place that would have a professional programmer and ask him if this is the case. I'm SERIOUS...he really pulled that one from you-know-where...

Rajani Isa

09-04-2004, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
verybody, on the grounds that a couple of them *might* cheat, expect resistance. Refer to the complaints about the 9,999 influence limit

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, they are upping that with update 2.

[ QUOTE ]
Likewise, the crafted map(s) are also not derivatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is the map patch not a derirvative work? It is almost identicle to the regular maps, with a few modifications. It was MADE FROM ( read: Derived) from the game files. I seriously doubt there is a court or board that would support that position of the patch not being derivitive.

And for the whole this is not modifiying the client? The client IS the City of Heros folder. Whne I use either a sound mod or the map patch, my client performs differently - because it HAS been modified.

Now, I don't care/understand this move of banning such threads/discussion on this board. It gives them legal highground in any of several possible instances, and makes it more consistant for them to say this now, then have to change their stance later if something comes up.

[ QUOTE ]
And It is not neccesarily CuppaJo's move. I do moderate a message board, and do you think the admin does all - or even most - of the dirty work that the posters can quote? No, that is part of why we are there.

[/ QUOTE ]

NinjaPirate

09-04-2004, 02:17 PM

Whether or not map patches are derivative is irrelevant.

Cryptic does not want any discussions of game modifications here.

That is all.

-np

FordPrfct

09-04-2004, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And for the whole this is not modifiying the client? The client IS the City of Heros folder. Whne I use either a sound mod or the map patch, my client performs differently - because it HAS been modified.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the client IS NOT the CoH folder. By your definition, if I drop my keybinds.txt into the CoH folder, I have modified the client. If I have my Hero Creator, or HeroStats under the same folder, I have modified the client. This is quite obviously an absurd notion.

The client is the program, and associated files, created by the installer. The folder is little more than a designation as to where to find it. You seem to be implying that if I rename "C:\City Of Heroes" to "C:\Cryptic Nerfed Me", then I have modified the client.

Besides, the map patches, texture mods, sound mods, and such did not modify a single one of these files. They were added. External. The client *chose* to load these over the compressed data. We were using a built-in capability of the client. Now, if we were to unpack the .piggs, change the data, and recompress them, then yes, we would be modifying the game files. Nobody has argued that.

Let me try this in simple terms, for those who still don't get it.

Adding files that you created, in a folder you created, does not modify the client. You have not touched Cryptic's software.

Tealeaf

09-04-2004, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, since it's all wrapped up and done, where exactly are we going to discuss the mods now that we can't do it here? Any good forums? I checked IGN's CoH board and that was too cluttered for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just opened up a mod forum here (http://p079.ezboard.com/fcityofheroesunofficalforumsfrm33) on the Unofficial CoH forums. These forums don't get much traffic, but I'm hoping that they will pick up steam one day. Anyways, you can talk about/post mods to your heart's content there.

MrBunchy

09-04-2004, 11:28 PM

Hey CuppaJo did you read your own TOS?

This is from your TOS
(c) Member Content. Members can upload to and create content on our servers in various forms, such as in selections you make and characters and items you create for City of Heroes, and in bulletin boards and similar user-to-user areas (“Member Content”). By submitting Member Content to or creating Member Content on any area of the Service, you acknowledge and agree that such Member Content is the sole property of NC Interactive. To the extent that NC Interactive cannot claim exclusive rights in Member Content by operation of law, you hereby grant (or you warrant that the owner of such Member Content has expressly granted) to NC Interactive and its related Game Content Providers a non-exclusive, universal, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicenseable right to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such Member Content, and all ancillary and subsidiary rights thereto, in any languages and media now known or not currently known.

Guess i'm missing something. :eek:

MasterTheHero

09-05-2004, 12:10 AM

The key words are:

"Upload" and "Create" content for City Of Heroes.

NOT

"Modify" or "Alter" content for City Of Heroes.

Anything you upload, fan art, fan movies, and fan fiction is all property of NCSoft and Cryptic Studios. I'm guessing (MAYBE) if you make a new skin for COH you should probably send it to the art team so that they can work with it and possibly implement it.

However,

You cannot ALTER the files in COH because that will leave it vulnerable for hacking, trojans, etc. Best to just send your new content in rather than tell other people how to modify intergal game files.

JTCMidas

09-05-2004, 01:38 AM

This reminds me a lot about Neverwinter Nights

The thing about NWN is it's very consumer friendly. They have the law that you can't modify the software, but like it seems with CoH, there is a folder called Override. Which does just that, any file put in that folder will override the main file upon uploading. No alteration is done, nothing is hacked, it just reads the override file first.

They have cracked down one people who modify the exe file... there was a camera hack for a while ( that let you move the camera view to a first person and increased the range ) that they were against, and eventually put into the actual game client themselves. Thing is, all this stuff IS client side. You can only do so much client side... as far as I know you can't get free XP or influence because the server will say "no, you didn't kill that because I didn't see it" client is just that... client, what you the single person see and nobody else.

Now granted, an MMO is a whole different creature when it comes to modding, can easily talk about UT and Quake and NWN and such, they have online aspects but pretty much everything is between a group of people. You and a person connect to each other and play. MMO's deal with servers owned by someone, paid for by customers and have to deal with everyone. The others don't have to, they can sell the base product and let people go to town, they have their money... they don't have to contually watch things like an MMO where monthly is where your money comes from.

In my eyes, an override folder is a good thing, it's only for the one person, granted viruses and such can happen but well, that's a risk you take and sometimes you just find guides anyway ( I believe the sound one just dealt with making a blank file or such ). Now yes, bots and such are wrong I think, they allow someone to have an advantage over another. Stores on a map don't, disabling sounds don't... I mean in the map you get with the game, the stores are on it... there isn't an exact placement cause the maps are small, but you can find it easily if you just look in the general area.

I do understand the legal ramifications, and I believe that's really what it comes down to. There have always been the "constant threat" of infringing copywrites of the various comic book companies, and I suppose it would be easy to have a superman logo or such on your chest... but you know what? Only you would see it. Again, it's all client side... the things on the servers can't be modified without directly hacking the server itself. You can't send fake info to the server because the server won't believe it. It does all the calculations, it does all the results, you just tell it what you want to do, and it does it for you.

I see why they are cracking down, but then again... I don't see why. Suppose that's how it works though

Zodnom

09-05-2004, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, since it's all wrapped up and done, where exactly are we going to discuss the mods now that we can't do it here? Any good forums? I checked IGN's CoH board and that was too cluttered for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just opened up a mod forum here (http://p079.ezboard.com/fcityofheroesunofficalforumsfrm33) on the Unofficial CoH forums. These forums don't get much traffic, but I'm hoping that they will pick up steam one day. Anyways, you can talk about/post mods to your heart's content there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should put a link to that in your sig.

Tealeaf

09-05-2004, 08:49 AM

Ok Zod, done.

Does anyone have any portion of the "how to disable looping sounds" thread by Spyder? If so, can they post it in mod sub or email it to me so that it is available again? It was too good a post to loose.

MrBunchy

09-05-2004, 09:04 AM

OK so this where i'm haveing a problem the game is Present day kinda..... However, our maps don't have any landmark names. And we can't add anything that will stay from zone to zone.
Haveing said that, if useing the "Map Hack" is bad, whats the time frame on getting Waypoints that will stay with the toon? And if that doesn't happen and we can't use the map hack anymore I'm just going to print out the maps.
the info is there now. your not going to stop people from useing it. It is just easyer to have it in game.

On a side note. Has anyone seen any gas stations in the game?
I see lots of cars but no gas stations. Hmmmm.........

Aporter

09-05-2004, 04:10 PM

Tealleaf, I've posted pic of my stuff, but dont have a place to put em up for d/l yet. added your board to my sig too :)

Tealeaf

09-05-2004, 04:54 PM

I appreciate that! But you might want to say somewhere in the sig that this is for talking about mods.. the url doesn't really say much about that.

There are a few mods posted there now, including the map patch and some looping sound killers. Hopefully I'll get more emailed to me so I can link them also.

Aporter

09-06-2004, 11:57 AM

I added my input up there, I'll update the sig too.

Robotech_Master

09-07-2004, 08:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative. Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, IANAL (though even if I were a lawyer, how could I pass up the chance to type ANAL in all caps like that? :)), but what makes the maps derivative works is not that they are meant to be used with the game, but that they're based on game content.Thus, they're every bit as much derivative works as CoH fan art or fan fiction. Spend a few moments on Google to look up a copyright faq and check it out.

Note that, by the letter of the agreement, fan art and fanfic should technically be verboten (as the 5th Column would say) as well. For that matter, so should screen captures for anything but personal, private use.

But again, IANAL. (Well, maybe a rules lawyer. :))

ieatglue

09-07-2004, 01:40 PM

I can understand using the word unsupported but I think it is ridiculous to make it a violation. Maybe it is a violation on these boards and I can use IGN's VNBoards (http://vnboards.ign.com) to find much needed mods.

So, if I edit a file in the client, am I going to be banned? If so, it might be like a drug habit. So many people doing it, knowing the risk but enjoying the relief.

Rajani Isa

09-07-2004, 06:42 PM

Its not that they are going to hunt you down, it sounds like they are just going to stop discussion of that on these boards.

Rhysem

09-10-2004, 08:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Let me try this in simple terms, for those who still don't get it.

Adding files that you created, in a folder you created, does not modify the client. You have not touched Cryptic's software.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me try it in simple terms because you obviously don't get it.

They said reverse engineering the client is against the TOS. How did you know to put the files there? You had to reverse engineer (or someone did) the client to find that out and post it. They stomped on it. Case closed.

Now, if you ask me personally, banning reverse engineering of things is [censored]. In fact it /used/ to be specifically protected by law in the US. Note I said used to be. Gotta love things like the DMCA, patent abuse, and the like.

In a more serious note, I'd be willing to give 2:1 odds that Cuppa isn't listing all the reasons. I have a suspicion they're worried about someone figuring out how to actually replace animations in the client. Why? Becase the client probably controlls animation time (tho maybe not, since we have parry working how it does; animate then pause time where you can move but not act), and the servers probably don't check it. Imagine if you could spam off attacks with 0 anim time. Yeah.

All of Asheron's Call PK skills were knowing exactly how to break the client's animation loop. They'd be wise to be scared.

Aporter

09-10-2004, 05:58 PM

It would be very very hard to exploit the animations, animations are not code and cryptic did not store and exploitable code, at least exploitable to a large degree like somethat such as you say on the client. I've swapped animation files I'll admit, and while I type ;raisehand and see the hover animation, when I ask someone else what they see, they say I'm raising me hand. IMO cuppa has listed the reasons.

Rasta_NA

09-11-2004, 02:13 AM

ya gotta be kidding me! I must be missing something. The only mods I am aware of are the map patch and the looping sounds. These are fixes to major issues that could have been addressed by the creators of the game. The customers fixed it at not cost to the creators and now want to ban us from using them? crazy. At a minimum we are owed a logical explanation.

Robotech_Master

09-11-2004, 06:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ya gotta be kidding me! I must be missing something. The only mods I am aware of are the map patch and the looping sounds. These are fixes to major issues that could have been addressed by the creators of the game. The customers fixed it at not cost to the creators and now want to ban us from using them? crazy. At a minimum we are owed a logical explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]
The logical explanation's been given already: the patches have been causing a lot of headaches for NCSoft's support division, as people install them, mess up their clients, and then come crying to support about it.

And the ban isn't from using them (yet), it's just from talking about them on these boards. There are other, non-official places where they can be discussed now.

Mr_Fury

09-11-2004, 08:26 AM

Feel free to use the "Mod" section on my boards... you are able to Upload and Download files (Up to 4MB a piece)... there is already some great info and some files there from Rile.

ParagonCity.net (http://www.paragoncity.net)

X_SunRay_X

09-12-2004, 02:36 PM

I've seen refineries. But your right, NO GAS STATIONS. Must be Hydrogen. Pour in a gallon of water and drive for days.

Cranstic

09-19-2004, 03:36 PM

Cranstic

09-19-2004, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it leaves the door open for viruses to be spread. I used to play Jumpgate and there was a problem where a player had created something "for the community" to use to help with the game, and it turned out to be a virus that he was spreading because he was about to get banned or was sick of the game or something like that.

...

Let's say someone created a mapping program that worked great, but behind the scenes was stealing your keystrokes to get your user name and password to the game. Things like that would and may possibly happen if Cryptic allows mods
here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No things like that happen people some people are idiots (the ones getting the virus)

Cranstic

09-19-2004, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not if its just a map, there has to be more factors.
[ QUOTE ]

Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is utter nonsense and would be laughed out of court.

D3TH_Scrapper

09-19-2004, 05:16 PM

I really dont see the point of banning that i do enjoy the modding aspect it ammuses me i have changed the newspaper textures in [said magazine associated with a hugh heffner] i also turned all the water into lava which is very funny to i have made a little changes but i dont see why that would do anyharm sure if i hacked into ur servers (like i would know the first thing about that) and changed ur files then i could understand but if u want to prevent it go ahead it will just make you look bad. now if someone found a way to get into the files and exploit or cheat i could understand it a little bit better but it is your fault for making that available....so all in all ill stop but it is very very dumb :p

ChaoteFeuer

09-20-2004, 09:30 AM

from what i can tell... all the textures, sounds, etc for the game are contained in .pigg files in the coh directory. If you open the coh directory, you see your executable, a couple of .dll's, and the updater executable. All the rest of the client is loaded up from those .pigg files. Now, as anyone who's used a mod knows (and again, the only mod's i know of are maps and sounds, so maybe i'm missin something), these mods are implemented NOT by altering or overwriting any actual files in the COH directory, but by creating new folder structures that the game client uses INSTEAD of the ones in the .piggs..... which tells me right there, that the code in the executable is actually WRITTEN to allow users to put new files (sounds, maps, texures?) into the directory so that the game client loads them up. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's just some code left in there from development, for troubleshooting or something, but if it is... it needs to be taken out. These new, user-created files and folders wouldn't BE part of the loaded client, if the game executable weren't specifically written that way. I really think this has been done by the developers on purpose, of course with the understanding that any additional files created by the user are NOT supported in any way, and if you have problems with the game, the FIRST thing to do would be to remove these.

maxfire

09-22-2004, 12:36 AM

If the moderator your post stand without challenge.I would bet you are right.

Lohenien

09-22-2004, 08:10 AM

the file setup is the way it is so they can add patches easliy, simply over write the old with the new and the game loads it with ease. Diablo 2 is the same way but it uses large MPQ files instead of .pigg. The loading structure is meant to aid developement.

as a aisde note only people with the same "modded" files can see what you see with them, and thusly meaning the whole modding setup is cosmetic. If they are trying to shut down mods then it is possible that if you alter the client in some way it could become exploitable.
this seems to make sense if enemy statistics are held somewhere on our computers , we could make the game harder or easier ourselves. this is doubtful but a possible reason why they would try and stop mods from happening.

Brass_Munkee

09-22-2004, 02:35 PM

no things such as enemy stats, spawn rates, influence, etc are all server sided and not client sided. It seems as though the only client side data are graphics and the executable.

Honestly though this is lame. The best MMORPG ive ever played, Asheron's Call, fully supported client modifcations. AC had a ton of UI skins and a bunch of program add-ons called Decals. Little menus or in-game windows can be brought up to have several functions. For example one had a spell component organizer for mixing spells. Also crafting, programs allowing you to list an amount of items you needed for a certain item, such as bow components, how much of each item you needed, and how many batches you can make out of your current inventory. The possibilities were endless. If you ask me, client modifications allow for quality of life within the game.

To ban them completly is wrong. If you give the players a litte bit of elbow room here you wont have to worry about cheats. I've played a few games that activly ban any outside modification of the game completly. And its funny, they seem to be the most cheat rampant games I've ever played.

I remember on an Asheron's Call mod thread someone mentioned they were working on a mod that could have been considered a cheat. I guess he was working on a way to permantly cap your run speed. This wasn't under the terms that AC allowed us to mod and the user was immediatly flamed for disrespecting Turbine (AC's Developer) and turns out some of the forum posters knew this guy in game and reported him. This kind of respectful community between the players and the devs is what makes a healthy game. Will you ever see anything between devs and players in EverQuest? No. It is probably the most strict game around. But its up to you devs.

Of course, Client mods aren't the only thing that a dev-player relationship can be defined with, but it certainly can give players a good idea of how you treat your player community.

Echelon_NA

09-26-2004, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

There are two major quality of game modifications that a lot of people use. One is the map hack which makes it really easy to find stores and navigate PP. If the ingame map system wasn't so primitive, this wouldn't be necessary. The second is the insanely annoying sound loops that we have no control over other than to modify them directly. Again, there needs to be ingame controls on the noise level of loops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I use the map, find it quite useful. I'm suprised the Dev's didn't snatch this up right away. The ingame music as you go from zone to zone is pretty nice. Some of it I wish would play through the entire zone! My humble opinion. Which if you were me you 'd agree with. :p

beowulf_NA

09-29-2004, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything is coming 'soon' for CoH. There is a mountain of goodies coming 'soon'. That is just how it is with Cryptic. Nothing has been delivered yet, but just pay that next months subscription because it will all be here 'soon'.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like the "Fixes" To issue #2 ?

Duiss

10-11-2004, 04:42 PM

A whole lotta pages that seem to go....dowhere:) As far as my interpretation of the Cyrptic "Directive", they are protecting themselves against supporting the worlds software and trying to stem the existing calls and emails at the same time.

One of the things that kept me at EQ for 4+ years were the creative peoples mods that are so popular. Everything from BEAUTIFUL custom interfaces ((EQINTERFACES (http://www.eqinterfaces.com)))...to the text to voice software that is amazing.EQ Interfaces.

I suspect it's all a tempest in a teapot. Also, there appears to be some confusion on what "server" and "client" side modifications are in some of the posts.

VIVA LE MAP PATCH!

Duiss

Death_Row_Marv

10-14-2004, 12:49 PM

Excuse me while I speculate on this issue.

There could be one of two things going on here.

1. Durring test they found that useing overrides there was a way to exploit some features in the game to essentially "cheat".

or

2. They did not want to take the support calls stemmed from people modding their client.

I would hope that the first senerio is not true and the second one is. I would assume that the first senerio is not true due to the fact that even after issue #2 the ability to use overrides is still there.

As a CYA measure they decided not to condone discussions regarding client modifications on their offical forums. Which is understandable due to the fact that people that are not as technically inclined would try these modifications and in some way mess their client up and call support to have them help them fix it. In this case I would assume that a. their support staff are not trained to deal with such issues and b. they did not budget for such support senerios. All of which is very understandable. This is all based on speculation mind you and I could be way off base but thoes are my assumptions.

My recommendataion would be that if you would like to play around with clinet modifications, and talk about client modifications dont do it on the CoH public forums and dont ask for support. It might be a good idea to do your client mods on the test server as well. That way if there is some sort of client exploit that is found you can report it to the test department and hopefully get it patched in the next release.

There is my .02 cents and I hope this post does not get nuked!

Duiss

10-15-2004, 06:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As a CYA measure they decided not to condone discussions regarding client modifications on their offical forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

{(((Bump)))}

Quantum_Trntino

10-15-2004, 07:00 PM

This is a stickied thread... Why the need to bump?

WingedKagouti_NA

10-16-2004, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a stickied thread... Why the need to bump?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that was a bump_postcount_self() post :p

Gordontron

10-28-2004, 09:00 PM

I don't think people should modify files. It's like altering a piece of art without the consent of the artist. It's just WRONG.

Card_Shark

11-05-2004, 12:53 PM

Don't blame Cryptic or CuppaJo. The problem is not them. The problem is the user base.

Before you jump on me, hear me out.

This is an "official" forum supported and moderated by the game developers. They cannot allow discussions to go on that concern the modification of the game client, the folder it is installed to, or additional files used to enhance your experience that are not specifically provided by Cryptic or NCSoft. Why do you ask? Because.... If they do, they are then opening themselves up to supporting these modifications. You see.. In the strictest of senses..If they allow such discussions to take place on their forums, it could be implied that they support and condone the activity.

Does that mean that they don't like the ideas that the community has provided? No. Do is mean that they may not be implementing some of the ideas themselves in the future? No. Does it mean you can't discuss such things on a forum not owned and controlled by the game developer? No. They are just doing what they must do to protect themselves from supporting users that have modified their clients (perhaps incorrectly) and then submit support tickets for problems that the user may have caused themselves.

It's a shame they have to do such things, but the reason can most likely be attributed to the letigious nature of society. People are very quick to blame others for their own problems. Not to ruffle feathers here, but there have been numerous threads involving people that have said "the problem is not on my end", but a Hijack This log proves that their system is the reason they are having issues.

Ultimately..it's a shame they have to do this, but it is the nature of the beast. The thing to do would be to find a third party site to discuss the modifications that players have come up with and discuss them there. The "official" forums are for discussions that the game developers are willing to "support". Anything else will be officially taboo.

As an aside... Modifying the client does not mean changing the specific client files. Adding files or folders to any folder that is part of the City of Heroes installation, Inserting any files on your system that affects the behavior of the client, or even modifying a shortcut created by the client could be considered modifying the client. ANY change, deletion, or addition to the files provided by the developer falls under this category. The TOS may be ambiguous, but it must be. Cryptic cannot allow themselves to be in a position to "support" anything beyond what they provide as a whole. A TOS with the desired specifics would be impossible to write since it would have to address each and every possibility that could occur.

AltF4Man

11-10-2004, 08:52 PM

MasterMarbles

11-17-2004, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LOVEITORLEAVEIT:
I don't think people should modify files. It's like altering a piece of art without the consent of the artist. It's just WRONG.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is the issue. We actually paid for the original software, and are paying for any and all subsequent updates. Imagine getting an apartment and finding out that you can't move around the existing tables or chairs, simply because the landlord said that "it's prettier that way." Or imagine buying a car and being told that you can't attach new rims, for example, because the original designer(s) of that specific model thought that they looked good enough as they are. If you paid for the original "Mona Lisa", you can hang it on your wall, burn it, paint over it, or tear it, as you please.

[ QUOTE ]
Death_Row_Marv:
1. Durring test they found that useing overrides there was a way to exploit some features in the game to essentially "cheat".

or

2. They did not want to take the support calls stemmed from people modding their client.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am much more inclined to believe that either or both of these reasons are the cause. Also, it is possible to make mods in order to:
a) make a profit by selling the mods
b) defame Cryptic/NCSoft by blaming them for things they didn't do/make
c) further reverse engineer their product, violate intellectual property rights and make a profit, and be all but undetectable about it
d) other things that Cryptic/NCSoft have probably considered. :p

I guess it's the lesser of two evils, seeing as how there are many out there who fail to discipline their own abilities.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say

[/ QUOTE ]
Cryopulse:
Well, these options STILL aren't in, so....why listen to them unless they have ETAs?

[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding, right?! :p I just thought the ETA comment was a good one... otherwise I have no idea what the previously quoted comment was about. :p

Jabbrwock

11-17-2004, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say

[/ QUOTE ]
Cryopulse:
Well, these options STILL aren't in, so....why listen to them unless they have ETAs?

[/ QUOTE ]
No kidding, right?! :p I just thought the ETA comment was a good one... otherwise I have no idea what the previously quoted comment was about. :p

[/ QUOTE ]
Since some of the more popular mods are to remove looping sounds and show stores on maps, the most commonly used mods will become obsolete when these features become inherent in the official version of the game, so why all the griping about the no-mod-discussion? At least, that's what I think was his point, not absolutely sure. Still, the no ETA thing is a big one. For that matter, the fact that these features will be in, even if we had an ironclad release date, would still not do a single thing to make my current play experience less annoying when I'm going nuts due to superspeed's thrumming or targeting drone's humming or the difficulty of finding unmarked stores.

Peppercat

12-12-2004, 07:59 AM

They may show stores, but will they show the maze that is Perez Park woods?

ArkanWolfshade

12-13-2004, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in my honest opinion, these client mods in no way affects other customers nor does it put any burden on the devs. It actually "enhances" interest in the game. When a moderator like CuppaJo steps in and can delete these threads on his own whim without first discussing it is in my opinion very hurtful to customer trust. In other words, it seems to me that CuppaJo does not have an open mind and anything that even remotely "resembles" breaking the rules is hereby forbidden. Even if it was all completely innocent... and it IS completely innocent. Open your mind, it does wonders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Off the cuff I see one way it could hurt other players. CoV. How much of an advantage would you have going into a hostile zone and knowing where all of the other sides gathering points/stores/etc are at?

And, as an earlier reply stated, it is quite like that CuppaJo is just the messenger. And, frankly, cancelling your game account because of message board rule enforcement strikes me as childish.

Joeru

12-25-2004, 01:34 AM

Modificaitons such as data mods, or modifications such as pigg files and the like? (turn spine scrappers into metal spike scrappers, improve stone armor's ****ty graphics. turn the world of COH more "comic booky", etc..)

if the client side graphic modding is being banned/blocked, that's lame to the Nth power times 10. It's not like anyone else can see the changes, or causes anyone any problems.

Pollution

01-08-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you so much for the clarification, CuppaJo.

With that out of the way ... I personally don't have a problem with them banning discussion of the mods in an official capacity, so long as the functionality to do them remains in place, allowing those of us who know what we are doing to continue to have fun tweaking our characters.

Time for modding discussions to go elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look guys, here's a translation from someone who speaks bussiness for those of you who don't.

"Do whatever you want, just don't talk about it here, and don't ask for help from us if you F something up."

Legal reasons aside, this is a good policy. He all but said, we're not inforcing this (unless it's a problem with an exploit or something), but we're not going to talk about it either. Find somewhere else to post about this stuff. There's some neat stuff out there, but after 3 min of looking, I found a Spawn model for your character (you're the only one that see's it, but it's a CLEAR violation of the ToS).

Don't shoot Cuppa for this, he's just letting you know that they don't want any extra crap from Marvel than they're getting now (I hear they're gonna sue the makers of #2 pencils next, cause you can draw a copywritted character with one) and they don't intend to open themselves up to further attacks due to sanctioned mod discussions.

Modding CoH client=not a big deal, just keep it to yourself on this board.

Don't ask, Don't tell.

Pollution

Break_of_Dawn

01-24-2005, 02:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here. (http://www.plaync.com/help/eula_coh.html)
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though this has been pointed out repeatedly, I'll do it again. She is just saying to take your words elsewhere. It's amazing how quickly some people jump to a conclusion just to whine and cry like a baby "ohh wah I have to actually think my way through PP with no map, I quit, take my discs back!" Go explore, it's good for you. Oh, and stop calling Cuppa a man, because you're a liar, and bad at it.

ElTigre

01-24-2005, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.

Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um...if Cryptic doesn't want things like map patches in the game, why does the game FACILITATE for its use? The game KNOWS to look in certain directories for player-moded content. Why put in that functionality if you didn't want it to happen?

And as someone else pointed out, if the current game maps weren't so lackluster, map patches wouldn't be necessary.

Kal_Choedan_NA

01-25-2005, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOVEITORLEAVEIT:
I don't think people should modify files. It's like altering a piece of art without the consent of the artist. It's just WRONG.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is the issue. We actually paid for the original software, and are paying for any and all subsequent updates. Imagine getting an apartment and finding out that you can't move around the existing tables or chairs, simply because the landlord said that "it's prettier that way." Or imagine buying a car and being told that you can't attach new rims, for example, because the original designer(s) of that specific model thought that they looked good enough as they are. If you paid for the original "Mona Lisa", you can hang it on your wall, burn it, paint over it, or tear it, as you please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately your entire argument is built upon a very common misconception. You did not pay for the original software. What you bought was a license to use the software, on one machine at one time.

To put it in your analogy, it is more like you rented a car from Hertz, but are now suprised to find that they don't allow you to attach those shiny new rims, because at the end of the day, the car is still theirs, not yours.

Kal

Megalomaniac

01-25-2005, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOVEITORLEAVEIT:
I don't think people should modify files. It's like altering a piece of art without the consent of the artist. It's just WRONG.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is the issue. We actually paid for the original software, and are paying for any and all subsequent updates. Imagine getting an apartment and finding out that you can't move around the existing tables or chairs, simply because the landlord said that "it's prettier that way." Or imagine buying a car and being told that you can't attach new rims, for example, because the original designer(s) of that specific model thought that they looked good enough as they are. If you paid for the original "Mona Lisa", you can hang it on your wall, burn it, paint over it, or tear it, as you please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately your entire argument is built upon a very common misconception. You did not pay for the original software. What you bought was a license to use the software, on one machine at one time.

To put it in your analogy, it is more like you rented a car from Hertz, but are now suprised to find that they don't allow you to attach those shiny new rims, because at the end of the day, the car is still theirs, not yours.

Kal

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I have been watching this post since it started, and I have to say.....there are a bunch of you out there that do nothing but WHINE.....BTW Would you like some CHEESE with that??.....
I mean come on. Lets be serious. So you dont like some ingame sounds. Turn them OFF. Or better yet, listen to music. Do you really need the sounds to play the game?? No.
Secondly, Cuppajo is only doing the job which he/she has been hired to do. Moderate these forums. She answered your questions, the mods aren't allowed to be discussed here. Simple and to the point. I have never in my life heard more whining and griping from a community as large as this one. You all that did so, just make me sick about being a gamer. Good thing though....there are more of us out there who actually enjoy this game and others like it, to where we cant be included in the vast minority of whining gamers. Get a life. Leave the moderators to do their job. Enjoy the game. Done. :p :p :p :D

moore

01-27-2005, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I have been watching this post since it started, and I have to say.....there are a bunch of you out there that do nothing but WHINE.....BTW Would you like some CHEESE with that??.....
I mean come on. Lets be serious. So you dont like some ingame sounds. Turn them OFF. Or better yet, listen to music. Do you really need the sounds to play the game?? No.
Secondly, Cuppajo is only doing the job which he/she has been hired to do. Moderate these forums. She answered your questions, the mods aren't allowed to be discussed here. Simple and to the point. I have never in my life heard more whining and griping from a community as large as this one. You all that did so, just make me sick about being a gamer. Good thing though....there are more of us out there who actually enjoy this game and others like it, to where we cant be included in the vast minority of whining gamers. Get a life. Leave the moderators to do their job. Enjoy the game. Done. :p :p :p :D

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I have been watching these posts since they started, and I have to say.....there are a bunch of you out there that do nothing but WHINE about WHINERS.....BTW Would you like some CHEESE with that??.....
I mean come on. Lets be serious. So you dont like some message board posts. Don't read them. Or better yet, put the posters on ignore. Do you really need to read every thread to play the game?? No.

Simple and to the point. I have never in my life heard more whining and griping from a community as large as this one. You all that did so, just make me sick about being a gamer. Good thing though....there are more of us out there who actually enjoy this game and others like it, to where we cant be included in the vast minority of whining gamers. Get a life. Enjoy the game. Done. :p :p :p :D

/me 3rd party modded your post!!! oh nos! SKYFALLING! GLAVIN!

incorporeal

03-03-2005, 01:48 AM

while the sound issue drives me nuts, I personally like that stores aren't on the map, and that PP is so confusing to navigate. While it can be frustrating to get stuck in the middle of PP (especially at lower levels) I think it adds excitement of the game to not know where you are exactly. And it's a bit of a treat to discover where the stores are, and to memorize the geography of the city.

but that's just me.

Anakyn

03-15-2005, 01:30 PM

Whats a mod?????????????

Cuppajoe... lock the thread already.

Funky_Pink

04-04-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad. A lot of creative and well-done work swept away with but a brush of the mighty hand of Mod.

I hope at the very least you guys make a note of some of the better work and try to purchase rights to use it. There's some fantastic stuff out there that Cryptic would be silly to ignore.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep.

what about selling the map in pieces. when you go to Atlas, there's someone to sell you the Atlas map...

costume/weapons mods maybe sold in stores. a weapons shop sure would be groovy :cool:.

sigh, it'd sure be cool to make a game ^^

----------------------------

once you stop trying to please the unplease-able, you stop "working".

Acemace

06-11-2005, 06:38 PM

Never used the 'map'...*eye's shift side to side*...

PoetLaureate

06-30-2005, 11:51 AM

Ok, I just started a tanker and this Unyielding is just killing me. I have to put up with this dull throbbing hum and blasts of sandpaper being rubbed. If anyone could point me to a third party site that has a fix for this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Doctor_Gemini

07-01-2005, 03:42 AM

I agree that the Perez Park maze is better left unknown, however, its silly not to know where the shops are. This is a city, not some unexplored dungeon. Cities have streets, addresses, and phone books that most shops make sure their addresses are in. It takes away from the idea that this is a city to have to wander through all of Steel Canyon, for instance, to find Cooke's Electronics.

As to the noises, well, until I discovered a mod for it, I stopped playing my dark/dark scrapper at all because the constant, unending Dark Miasma sound effect (even though I turned the thing off whenever I was not using it) literally gave me a headache. As to the suggestion of "well, just turn the sound off then".......right.......I want to play a silent game. Do you think that, if people do not want sound as part of the game environment, that software producers would bother putting sound in with the game? Sounds are helpful in many situations, finding glowies being the most obvious.

My problem is, virtually every game I've played that has forums sponsered by the manufacturer has a modding section. I find it rather ludicrous and arrogant that this game has closed its doors to the modding community. People have different tastes, and no product is going to appeal to all, that's where modding comes into play. Yes, NCSoft has the right to ban their discussion, but, they'ree spitting on their paying customers by doing so.

PoetLaureate

07-01-2005, 03:57 PM

Yeah -- pretty much *every* game in this cyber cafe can be legally modified -- your own skins, weapons, etc. Only City of Heroes, Anarchy Online and Final Fantasy XI, as far as I can tell, are anal about mods. Anyway, I like playing the tanker, but I'm pretty much done with that character until I can find a fix for the sounds.

BrmstoneBalista

07-19-2005, 06:22 PM

nothing is worse than the nerve wracking drone of Superspeed or the grinding howl of target drone.

nitewing

07-28-2005, 07:14 PM

You must not have ever sent a petition with a suggestion, because they send you a nice form letter saying they dont have time to read petitions like that and to post them in the forum where other players can comment on them and the staff can read them when and if they want. So, I guess the ideas here are not the kind they want to hear, then again I find they dont like to hear suggestions in general, so either you pay and play their game or you dont.

dkoche

08-05-2005, 12:57 AM

Everyone is under the assumption that they "own" the software that is installed on thier computer. In standard EULA agreements, you are purchasing a License to use the software on your computer. You do not "own" it per se, just are renting it for personal use. Kind of like leasing a car.

However, your montly payment gets you additional services each month

- Comic Book
- Unlimited Gameplay
- Technical Support
- The ability to post on the boards and everything else associated with the website.
- Monthly Updates
- ETC. . .

So, in reality, Cryptic/NC or whoever is involved with all of this still owns the software on your PC's. You pay them montly to keep enjoying the benefits of playing the game. If you want to compare, read Microsoft's EULA, or for that matter anyone elses. You will see that support is offered for origional, un-altered versions of these and all programs. Until they become obsolete from technology advancements.

They can do whatever they want to these posts (oddly enough, they have the right seeing as the OWN the website), they can do whatever they want with the program (up to and not limited to...altering gameplay, cancelling accounts, changing character names <had this happen to me personally - didn't even know I infringed on a copyright...>, deleting unwanted posts, etc...)

To repeat what many have said about all the mod whining... Let it drop and just enjoy the game, IF you have these mods that make life easier...then continue to use them. If they stop after an update, guess what. You have no legal grounds to complain, sue, or harrass the Devs. They are paid to ensure that the game continues to run and generate income for a large company. If they think that mods are a danger to the game, then they have the right, and obligation to those of us that do not use them, to continue to provide us with a stable gaming environment to escape the reality that we are bogged down in...

Have a nice day, and remember...you computer loves you because you fiddle with it's keys...

Sampoerna

08-05-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nothing is worse than the nerve wracking drone of Superspeed or the grinding howl of target drone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooooooooh yes there is. It's called the eardrum-splitting squeel of Force Fields. Mother of G, if they could just turn that into a nice smash of several pillows colliding in midair I would consider myself blessed.

signed: Lady Seizure... Ill/FF Controller

5th_Player

08-09-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm not happy about this.. but here's what I'm thinking...

I'm thinking this might be Cryptic's way of saying. "We don't support/condone mods and as such we delete all threads about this, but we're not disabling the override feature." Limiting liability. If it's seen here it could be considered "official" and cause problems. By deleting the threads and not disabling the ability to use mods they could still leave it in that "gray area." I only guesstimate that because of the way CuppaJo is only talking about deleting threads.

I'd think if Cryptic was taking a hard line on this, they'd blatantly says stop, and we'd see a patch very quickly to disable the override. I can't see as to why they wouldn't anounce it, if people are going to quit over this, they'll do it when it's anounced or when it's "fixed." They're still going to lose customers over this.

I will not be happy, however, if they disable the override without updating the in game maps with store locations and at the very least cutting the volume of looping sounds in half. (disable would be nice too)

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the problem. They don't like modding, heck I wouldn't if I was working my butt off on a good game. There's certain ways to control modding. Since the modded files are named the same as the original, it would be harder or unpleasant to inforce.

There would have to be some way to check to see if any files are changed. One way of doing this is to incorporate a while loading file scan, which would take way long on one gig of data.
Another way would be to actually download and replace all files when loading, a very long process.

So really any method of taking mods out, would be very annoying to customers, and why should they suffer over very trivial client changes that don't affect the global gameplay.

So, No, they don't like them, but there's no real way to control them.

And anyway, continual modding leads to some really interesting results. Incorporation is what I'm thinking of. For example, CS started as just a mod to halflife (if I'm remembering correctly, it's been ages) And then valve basically took the idea, since it was not protected and it was partly theirs to begin with.

Also, the way a lot of game incorporate Gui mods into ingame Gui customizing. (which I would like to see)
Kinda tired of the old Gui, it needs some tuning circles and squares get old after a while.

Frost

08-09-2005, 09:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
aAnd anyway, continual modding leads to some really interesting results. Incorporation is what I'm thinking of. For example, CS started as just a mod to halflife (if I'm remembering correctly, it's been ages) And then valve basically took the idea, since it was not protected and it was partly theirs to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a side note...Valve actually hired the guys who made CS and now they're still making the mod...they're just doing it in house and getting paid for it.

5th_Player

08-17-2005, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just as an FYI Cuppa Jo, people are generally adding NEW files in a separate folder

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software;

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In the process of modding you DO open up and extract textures

[/ QUOTE ]

Just in case he didn't clarify this.

Extracting textures is reverse engineering.

Elven_Warrior

08-21-2005, 11:49 AM

I personally don't agree with some of what is being said here. I understand where the devs are coming from, they have ceated a game that is fair to everyone, and is stable, by others introducing code into the game ever as small as a spot as client side, you are modifying their creation. Now I don't agree with it completely... I belong to a group of players that all we do is mod a game, we tear apart the costumes, we tear apart maps, we locate missing content and reintroduce it, and believe me, the people that come to our websites to get it love it, they go nuts when they see the new stuff, they like the fact that the game can grow. Now the devs here are doing just that with there issues 1-5 updates. it's just that it takes so long, and customers are impatient. perhaps if the devs would allow the m,odding communities to create mods, costumes, etc... then submit them for security and stability reasons, then impliment them, perhaps that would be the happy medium for us all.

Madam_Enigma

10-11-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The client is the program, and associated files, created by the installer. The folder is little more than a designation as to where to find it. You seem to be implying that if I rename "C:\City Of Heroes" to "C:\Cryptic Nerfed Me", then I have modified the client.

Besides, the map patches, texture mods, sound mods, and such did not modify a single one of these files. They were added. External. The client *chose* to load these over the compressed data. We were using a built-in capability of the client. Now, if we were to unpack the .piggs, change the data, and recompress them, then yes, we would be modifying the game files. Nobody has argued that.

Let me try this in simple terms, for those who still don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, did you have a real point there? Now then how about I give my $0.02 worth. They are called mods for a reason right? They MODIFY the game in some way. It doesn't matter if your changing the files, or adding new ones, you just altered the game. THAT is something against the TOS that everyone read and agreed to. At least they should have read it.

So, you claim that the CoH folder isn't the product that the TOS covers, but just the core program files? Um, didn't the game create said folder to hold the entire product? So if you add a new sound file or texture file, didn't you just add to the product your not sopose to mess with? And the infamous map hack? I met someone who used it, and he described exactly what it did to me. He was trying to convince me it's needed to play the game.

Map hack features he mentioned? The location of every store in every zone (added to the game now btw, just have to find them first), standard spawning locations of enemies and what level they will be, event/monster spawn locations... Sounds alot like a major cheet. And just how usefull was this map hack? From how many times he tried entering the same building looking for the magic/mutation shop in Steel, when it was three buildings down the street with a sign. not very helpfull other then a cheet to aviod fighting. I can avoid a fight if I want to by just keeping my eyes pealed.

You have a problem with a looping sound such as targeting drone? Um, why are you running that power when it's not needed anyway? So your playing dark armor and don't like your mez shield's FX? Guess what, it's not always needed anyway so can be turned off when not required. Gee, that's two of the mods everyone is saying are requred I just demonstrated are not really needed. How about custom weapon images? Wow, violating the TOS never felt so lame. The costume creation is already deep, and getting even larger all the time. Do we really need customized weapons before the devs figure out a way to impliment it? And they are working on that remember.

In short, I fail to see why everyone is so upset over having threads about mods removed when the mods are eather blatent cheets or aren't needed anyway, and against the TOS to boot.

Chroma

11-05-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In short, I fail to see why everyone is so upset over having threads about mods removed when the mods are eather blatent cheets or aren't needed anyway, and against the TOS to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't quote all of that, just because it makes what I'm posting harder to read. I just have one question- I want an in game clock that doesn't require a command or hunting down the right npc. <--That's what I got told when I suggested it through the correct channels, or "go buy a clock."

I want to be able to glance up and see the correct, real world time. It's simple, and quite possibly moddable, and affects no one's game play. I don't even want to put this on everyone's UI, I just want it as an option. Please explain to me how "I don't need this." Who are you to judge what I might find necessary or not? Sure, you've got an opinion, but that doesn't make you right.

I had always thought that it was pretty rude to tell other people what they should and should not be doing with their characters. Turns out I was right.

Wayfarer

11-08-2005, 08:21 PM

Really, they either need to do something about the looping sounds or let the players take care of it themselves. I was trying to play a dark armor brute today and Dark Embrace is driving me crazy, not to mention giving me a headache.

But I suppose someone will just say I don't really need smashing/lethal damage resistance so I should just leave the power off.

QuinnBlackwatch

11-14-2005, 05:59 AM

You don't need your speakers, or your monitor, so turn them off. *rolleyes*

Gen_Devastation

11-18-2005, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In short, I fail to see why everyone is so upset over having threads about mods removed when the mods are eather blatent cheets or aren't needed anyway, and against the TOS to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't quote all of that, just because it makes what I'm posting harder to read. I just have one question- I want an in game clock that doesn't require a command or hunting down the right npc. <--That's what I got told when I suggested it through the correct channels, or "go buy a clock."

I want to be able to glance up and see the correct, real world time. It's simple, and quite possibly moddable, and affects no one's game play. I don't even want to put this on everyone's UI, I just want it as an option. Please explain to me how "I don't need this." Who are you to judge what I might find necessary or not? Sure, you've got an opinion, but that doesn't make you right.

I had always thought that it was pretty rude to tell other people what they should and should not be doing with their characters. Turns out I was right.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting all worked up because they wont let you have a MOD that shows the real world time in game.......

Unbelievable... :confused:

Rajani Isa

11-18-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really, they either need to do something about the looping sounds or let the players take care of it themselves. I was trying to play a dark armor brute today and Dark Embrace is driving me crazy, not to mention giving me a headache.

But I suppose someone will just say I don't really need smashing/lethal damage resistance so I should just leave the power off.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reps thought it was going to go live with the mudpots sound patch, but it didn't.

He is looking into all of the Dark armor / WS powers with loop sounds.

Rajani Isa

11-18-2005, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aAnd anyway, continual modding leads to some really interesting results. Incorporation is what I'm thinking of. For example, CS started as just a mod to halflife (if I'm remembering correctly, it's been ages) And then valve basically took the idea, since it was not protected and it was partly theirs to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a side note...Valve actually hired the guys who made CS and now they're still making the mod...they're just doing it in house and getting paid for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

On top of that, they gave out a mod kit... Cryptic hasn't.

On the flip side, halflife doesn't require a monthlyfee or certain servers.

MadHobbit

11-22-2005, 12:39 PM

as to mods, their is the dark side of it,hacks that let you see through walls on some games,some hacks made you invunable ,or so you did not take damage, and now with PVP entering the game, they have to be extra careful
i run a mod of diablo2 on my home system, I play it a lot as it got around some of the limits of the game I did not like, as it only effects single player game , i see no harm but If it would to be used in multi player , people would abuse it,and for the record I ran a game server for 5 years and know how mods can make things unstable

008Zulu

12-19-2005, 05:27 PM

this game has a teen rating, they dont allow mods because they dont want someone making a nude female patch that little Timmy can download. Also they paid their artists to make alot of costumes (most of which are hardly used and fugly) and they dont want their money wasted.

The map mod seems like a good idea tho, wont be needed if they nuke Perez Park (Lord Recluse, you dont return my letters?)

Tyrannis

12-26-2005, 07:37 PM

If "Lil Timmy"(doesnt sound very much like a teenager to me. ) chooses to download a female nude patch and as long as its only client side, I don't see a problem. The game that Cryptic made is indeed teen rated, but if someone mods that to his or her own liking, the rating still stands as long as its only client side because its not affecting any one else in the game. Even if over protective parents found "Lil Timmy" with a nude female character on his screen, what could they really do? "OMG SUE CRYPTIC!" Nope. The mod was made to their original design, therefore its similiar to when you put aftermarket parts on a car. You void the warranty and the car company can no longer be held accountable to certain things. The fact that the Devs dont allow mods(as long as its only client side) is rather retarded IMO. They can say "it violates the TOA" all day, but for what reasoning is beyond me. Just seems like they're being control freaks, to me. :p

Orisit

12-26-2005, 08:14 PM

If you allow mods, people can start modding things that were not intended, giving them an advantage. Even something as basic as a client side mod for skins--what if they replaced all the mob skins with ultra bright colours so they could be seen easier?

This was a big problem in World of Warcraft. They let people use mods, so of course some people start using them to get an advantage. And then everyone else feels that they *need* to get one or they'll be at a disadvantage. And so modders influence the way the game is played.

DojhromTRW

12-27-2005, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you allow mods, people can start modding things that were not intended, giving them an advantage. Even something as basic as a client side mod for skins--what if they replaced all the mob skins with ultra bright colours so they could be seen easier?

This was a big problem in World of Warcraft. They let people use mods, so of course some people start using them to get an advantage. And then everyone else feels that they *need* to get one or they'll be at a disadvantage. And so modders influence the way the game is played.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup this happened in CS, I had a Simpsons mod where everyone looked like toons from the Simpsons, so were people were camping behind crates and windows I'd see a big homer head and AWP through the wall... blam!! Replacing the knife with the trout slap was fun too. ..Mods can be fun but when you have rated games, you get "cheaters"

Stealth Aura now becomes Purple glowie of doom or the flight/foot step movement sounds like a fire alarms [There he is!] No mods is great ... I wish the devs would add more option though . . .

Annie_O

12-28-2005, 12:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do hope that if a technical change is planned to block usage of it, someone lets us know about it beforehand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking this might be that warning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw, because if they announce it beforehand, I'll just cancel my account that much sooner. Modding is the only thing that has really been keeping my interest in the game the last couple of weeks. :(

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you really need to be playing another game, bud. The client modification restriction is not new to the TOS ... so if the very fact that they are finally enforcing an element of their TOS by removing threads discussing client modifications - then, as I said, you need to be playing something else more satisfying.

I've been playing the game over a year and don't see what mods (other than the one surpassing the game's primitive map) are really needed to make the game more enjoyable.

Annie_O

12-28-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is moderator power-abuse in it's most ugliest form if I've ever seen it.

Don't think I'm overreacting, because I'm not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you're not 'overreacting' but you are putting way more drama into this than is necessary. First of all - how in all of God's green earth do you come to the conclusion that Cuppa is powertripping??????

I mean, that's a pretty aggressive accusation to make. I'll bet money that Cuppa is simply passing along the message - as this is probably a decision that has come from the higher-ups. And if that's the case, there is absolutely no need for people like you to be accusing CuppaJo of powertripping and being close-minded. They are simply doing their job and protecting their rights.

As for any one else not understanding how any of the mods can cause problems ... the simple fact is that if anything goes wrong with your game, who do you run to?? You run to the developers and expect them to help you ASAP in fixing your game. Now if your game is riddled with modifications you've been adding to your game ... do you still think it's their responsibility to fix your game?? In my opinion, they can't help you fix something that you've been secretly modifying from the beginning...

WokkaWokka

01-12-2006, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is moderator power-abuse in it's most ugliest form if I've ever seen it.

Don't think I'm overreacting, because I'm not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you're not 'overreacting' but you are putting way more drama into this than is necessary. First of all - how in all of God's green earth do you come to the conclusion that Cuppa is powertripping??????

I mean, that's a pretty aggressive accusation to make. I'll bet money that Cuppa is simply passing along the message - as this is probably a decision that has come from the higher-ups. And if that's the case, there is absolutely no need for people like you to be accusing CuppaJo of powertripping and being close-minded. They are simply doing their job and protecting their rights.

As for any one else not understanding how any of the mods can cause problems ... the simple fact is that if anything goes wrong with your game, who do you run to?? You run to the developers and expect them to help you ASAP in fixing your game. Now if your game is riddled with modifications you've been adding to your game ... do you still think it's their responsibility to fix your game?? In my opinion, they can't help you fix something that you've been secretly modifying from the beginning...

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, thats the most amount of wisdom I've ever seen posted on this board at once. And the overreacting guy, yeah, definitely overreacting, and just using a cliche to try and counter the aluminum hat wearing "we're all gonna die" viewpoint. The decision to stop posts on this behavior is rather expected, I'm not sure why anyone in the first place thought it was cool to say "I hate fat people" when yer standing right in front of your fat mother.
They're basically saying "hey, you're not allowed to hack our program. But for cryin out loud, if you DO hack it, don't tell us, and don't tell other people RIGHT IN FRONT OF US!" If they allowed posts on hacks they lose credibility on their stance to uphold their Terms Of Service.

Sun_Scarab

02-16-2006, 09:21 AM

so you can do it just don't get caught?

Starfire_One

02-16-2006, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does this include the infamous Map Patch? Because we never got a straight answer on whether or not that was legal. :confused: Please detail what is acceptable and what is not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Leader... Does this include the Vidiot map patch? I mean, that was the primary reason the site got it's award, right?

Omikron

03-19-2006, 01:58 PM

Anyone coming from WoW to CoX will surely agree that mods are a fantastic addition to the game.

You people who think otherwise need to realize that there is a big difference between 'mods' and 'hacks'.

A mod, something that improves your play without changing game mechanics, is a -good- thing. An in-game clock, for example. Or a more extensive friends list. WoW has literally hundreds of these, and they're fantastic.

Hacks are something totally different, and I think that's what most of you "Negative" people are trying to argue against. Make the distiction between the two, and I don't see how you can see Mods as a negative thing...

Rajani Isa

03-22-2006, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone coming from WoW to CoX will surely agree that mods are a fantastic addition to the game.

You people who think otherwise need to realize that there is a big difference between 'mods' and 'hacks'.

A mod, something that improves your play without changing game mechanics, is a -good- thing. An in-game clock, for example. Or a more extensive friends list. WoW has literally hundreds of these, and they're fantastic.

Hacks are something totally different, and I think that's what most of you "Negative" people are trying to argue against. Make the distiction between the two, and I don't see how you can see Mods as a negative thing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mods don't have to be hacks, but they can be. Cryptic doesn't want to, or really have, the time/resources to check out mods before okaying them - and they definatly don't have the time to deal with debuging them.

I remember some mods EQ had - most didn't work because they never got UPDATED along with the game.

Pounamu

06-12-2006, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine getting an apartment and finding out that you can't move around the existing tables or chairs, simply because the landlord said that "it's prettier that way." Or imagine buying a car and being told that you can't attach new rims, for example, because the original designer(s) of that specific model thought that they looked good enough as they are. If you paid for the original "Mona Lisa", you can hang it on your wall, burn it, paint over it, or tear it, as you please.

[/ QUOTE ]
You've obviously never rented anything...

If you rent an apartment then you are not allowed to paint, wallpaper, or otherwise alter it. If you lease a car then you are not allowed to put new rims on it or fit a new stereo. If you rent a piece of artwork then you are certainly not allowed to splash paint on it or set it on fire.

Most software is not a "buy" model, it is a "lease" model. If you "buy" Microsoft Word then you do not own it - all you've bought is a license to use it in certain ways. The licensor has the right to set out those certain ways; the licensee (AKA consumer) has the right to spend their money elsewhere. The licensee does not have the right to violate the terms of the agreement.

Robotech_Master

06-12-2006, 10:05 PM

Geez, I can't believe this thread is still alive.

Can't you people just let it die, already?

Pounamu

06-12-2006, 10:12 PM

Hmmm, I guess I should go look at the last date on page 11 before replying to an item on page 3. Oh well, I'll know for next time.

Cheers
Craig

5th_Player

08-17-2006, 02:01 PM

The override folder is a testing tool.

Psydekick

08-17-2006, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The override folder is a testing tool.

[/ QUOTE ]
??? Why for are you replying to a post in March of 2004?

Shoney_Big_Boy

03-18-2007, 07:17 PM

Cuppa

I understand the limitations of the EULA in North America, but most European countries are far less restricitng. Such as the reverse engineering clause is usually thrown out under the assumption if a license of software was purchased and is not performing as expected/hoped for, it could be modified.

I understand it is in the EULA, of course everything in a EULA can not necessarily be upheld in law which is why all EULAs say that any portion found to not be legally binding does not negate the remaining portion of the EULA.

Just curious, are these Mods still allowed in Europe, Asia, etc.

Psydekick

03-19-2007, 01:43 AM

A. Cuppa doesn't work on the CoH project anymore

2. Don't discuss evil client modifications here. The Devs/Mods have turned a blind eye to vidiots and paragonmaps until now. If you find a mod that could give players super-duper abilities or unfair advantage in PvP, then keep it to yourself or report it, depending on your ethical stance.

Medic_brietz

04-13-2007, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do hope that if a technical change is planned to block usage of it, someone lets us know about it beforehand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking this might be that warning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw, because if they announce it beforehand, I'll just cancel my account that much sooner. Modding is the only thing that has really been keeping my interest in the game the last couple of weeks. :(

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you really need to be playing another game, bud. The client modification restriction is not new to the TOS ... so if the very fact that they are finally enforcing an element of their TOS by removing threads discussing client modifications - then, as I said, you need to be playing something else more satisfying.

I've been playing the game over a year and don't see what mods (other than the one surpassing the game's primitive map) are really needed to make the game more enjoyable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Down at the "afore mentioned awesome website", they have an overlay map that makes badgehunting just a tad bit easier. I hope they would never take this away from us. I wish I could use it in conjunction with the blacked out maps in hazzard zones. It adds just enough to make things better. I cant see playing this game with out it. (it also shows you the TF people as well as other locations). Highly recomended for anyone.
As for ditching the sound loops, I often play with music on or no sound EXCEPT for instances where i need to find the humming glowie. I think those 2 instances should be the only exceptions.
I also hated not having all the latest MOD's for WoW. Its like keeping up with the jones's. not cool.

EnigmaBlack

04-26-2007, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.

Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol eventually... this week marks 3 years... yeah eventually.

Personally I bypass the updater because frankly I hate reverifying the image after loosing connection to the game, it takes too long. Oddly enough I haven't had a discon since I stopped playing CoV... go figure

Psydekick

05-02-2007, 12:08 PM

Dudes! Necro thread!

Spotcat

05-09-2007, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
umm...you guys realize that they are adding controls for loops/particle effect..as well as stores on maps in patches soon right?

..or am I stil lthe only one who listens to what the devs say ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason they have these changes and ideas.. is that they are most likely ideas ripped from the genuine mod community.

Now they are shutting out those players. Now, with less people feeling free to make some changes to the game, and pointing out game flaws.. Development will now be hindered by a %.

The modding community in any game are your most intelligent players. The ones that care most about the game and draw the most enjoyment from it. In my opinion, this shutting out of the modding community is a very un-wise and perhaps even foolish move.

Frost

05-09-2007, 12:07 PM

What do you mean, "Now they are shutting out those players."?

It's been like this forever.

Cirkuit

05-09-2007, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean, "Now they are shutting out those players."?

It's been like this forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sucks @ss though, Personally I dont see anything wrong with someone wanting to change the look of their toons claws, guns, capes ect.. For the most part, the mods that do change the look of a costume piece/weapon is only visible to the player as such none can tell who has what modded other then the player mentioning it. For some to start in about this again though, your beating a dead horse, been this way now for better part of the game.

@Konoko..what do you care that people are replying to an old thread, you pointing it out and/or critisizing folks for it is kinda hypocritical dont you think? Give it up already..

Craigrph

09-02-2007, 01:09 PM

While I don't agree with the Devs about modding I DO understand that why they have it against the EULA. They want everyone to have the SAME experience playing the game. And any unauthorized modifications could break the game for the person doing the mod and they dont want to be held responsible for anything like that not to mention be responsible for any infringement of copyrights. I DO think that they should allow players to submit mods to the DEVs and they decide wether to include it or not. I do believe that the Devs don't have a lock on how to improve COH, but they are responsible to the COH community to do their best to improve and make it more enjoyable, not to mention that their livelihood depends on people playing the game.

The Devs have a careful balancing act to do A) they can't unbalance the game as it would cause mortal damage to the game B) they cant please everyone including me all the time because we are all different

Zul_Vakirol

09-07-2007, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While I don't agree with the Devs about modding I DO understand that why they have it against the EULA. They want everyone to have the SAME experience playing the game. And any unauthorized modifications could break the game for the person doing the mod and they dont want to be held responsible for anything like that not to mention be responsible for any infringement of copyrights. I DO think that they should allow players to submit mods to the DEVs and they decide wether to include it or not. I do believe that the Devs don't have a lock on how to improve COH, but they are responsible to the COH community to do their best to improve and make it more enjoyable, not to mention that their livelihood depends on people playing the game.

The Devs have a careful balancing act to do A) they can't unbalance the game as it would cause mortal damage to the game B) they cant please everyone including me all the time because we are all different

[/ QUOTE ]You're new to the game and the forums, so I'll let the whole you siding with the devs thing slide for now. The mods here that people talk about are visual and simple changes, like showing placement of badges and plaques on the map, or making the bananas of doom (spines) look like metal, rock, or something else. I saw a visual mod about two and a half years ago and it was a visual mod to the Assault Rifle and people called it the Super Soaker back then and the mod made it look like a super soaker. We're not talking a Speedhack or invincibility hack here.

Acradius

09-16-2007, 09:47 PM

Well, from the blazingly fast topic skim that I've done, all I can say is this:

I humbly submit, that if the Devs will not let people make changes, the Devs must then step up and listen to them all the more. It's my hope that this goes beyond just 'keeping their finger near the pulse of the community'. I think a lack of client modification warrants people being put almost explicitly on projects that players in the community are talking about and asking for. Let's face it: you've got more hands to lift the proverbial load after slashing the comic off your collective to-do lists.

Also, it should be noted that although the ToS is strict, it probably shouldn't be taken as gospel truth in all instances. Technically, that awesome Comic Book Creator contest we had awhile back was against section 7 of the document. Not that I would count Cryptic or PlayNC among the smartest companies in the world if they were to punish people for doing well in their sponsored contest mind you.
:p

RobDude16

10-16-2007, 12:31 PM

The real truth about mods...

The percentage of players who actually *create* mods is far less than 1%.

The percentage of player who will actually use a mod that was created by someone is a tiny percent as well.

The majority of players never use a hero planner or look up stats or debate the build on the forums. Most players never come to the forums. It's just a game. They pay their monthly fee, and the play the game.

Even the players who do/did use mods...how many of them would actually quit the game over the looping sounds issue? Not many. People talk a big talk, but very, very few follow through.

However, mods are a customer support nightmare. Now the original, less than 1%, of players who could actually create their own mods are fine, but the other players who downloaded them are still a liability. If a patch makes it so that all the modded clients crash on startup, people are going to be unhappy. It might be a small percent, but it will be a very vocal percent. If the modding community has enough members and enough interest, the more they know about the innerworkings of the game, the more likely it is that people will write mods that go beyond harmless happy animations or sounds into the relam of complete hacking/botting. Then you've got legit players upset that everyone else seems to be botting their way to 50, then you've got people getting upset because they spent $25 dollars for a bot that turned out to be a scam, then you've got bots being downloaded from BT that are infected with kegloggers and plenty of non-technical people getting screwed.

So, you can either say 'No modding' and have a few people complain but ultimately do nothing...or you can say 'Go ahead and mod' and bring on the possibility of a lot of headaches.

Greyed

11-13-2007, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The real truth about mods...

[/ QUOTE ]

Was nowhere present in your post.

All of this anti-modding talk ignores the 800lb gorilla in the corner.

WoW... encourages... modding.

Blizzard embedded the LUA programming language into the client and wrote an API so the Addon authors are able to do some amazing things. By controlling the interface they are able to control what is done with the interface. Sure, there were complaints when 2.0 came out and broke a slew of addons because they tightened up the API to disallow a lot of dubious actions but by and large it has not been a support nightmare for them at all. Why? Simple, since they provided the interface and the API they went on to further state that they do not support or endorse any addon. Their answer is to turn it off. It is up to the individual addon authors to support their addon, period.

So the modding community supports its own product. They are the ones who shoulder the burden, not Blizzard. Blizzard's response when the client doesn't start is to turn off all addons. If the client starts then, not their problem.

Take a look at some of the exceptionally large addon sites for WoW and you see an thriving community with tons of support.

Contrast that with the first MMO I ever saw modded. Asheron's Call. Granted this is well before modding MMOs became commonplace but the different is striking. Asheron's Call's behavior was modified through the reverse engineering of the protocol in a utility called Decal. Decal allowed a ton of mods to be added. However since Turbine did not directly control the API they were unable to restrict the API to limited calls. As a result while there were tons of useful, benign mods for AC there were also some bad ones; completely autonomous bots which were able to fight/loot on their own. Amazing pieces of code, really, but detrimental to the game as a whole. Turbine's policy was that the Decal cat was out of the bag and instead of restricting its use entirely it restricted any active, AFK fighting while leaving many of the useful benign portions alone.

To me modding, esp. the controlled modding as evident by Blizzard's embedding of LUA, is a good thing for the MMO community at large. It allows the community itself to scratch itches that the developers simply don't have time for. It increases the quality of life dramatically. When I poke at MMOs other than WoW I am constantly dismayed at how horrible the UI is or at the missing features that could be addressed by a lively modding community.

Does it come with its own set of problems? Of course, anything does. Is it the bain of all gaming? Hardly. Is it appropriate for all games or in an unrestricted manner? Nope.

Anyone who is afraid of modding out of ignorance of some of the stellar community examples really has no place to judge. It can be done poorly, granted. But when done properly it is simply head and shoulders above the competition.

As stated controlling and channeling the modding community is becoming the dominant model in MMOs. In fact there are some MMOs which are going so far as to tap that large potential to help the developers provide content. Neverwinter Nights and it's successors are ample evidence of that trend. I don't recall the MMO which is going to do that as a matter of policy but I know there is one out there in development. I believe Ryzom (Sp?) is another that encourages development of content by players.

Extor_Prime

04-28-2008, 10:22 AM

I have to agree with Greyed. The contrast between CoX and WoW in terms of modding is disturbingly stark. To a degree, by encouraging modding, Blizzard actually set very efficient boundaries for what is allowed and what isn't. In most cases, once modding is open to the public and supported by the company, most modders will pursue legal ways of modifying the client.

As long as modding is off-limits, it will encourage people to attempt hacking. Forbidden fruit and all that. And when people start pursuing the forbidden fruit, often times they manage to stumble upon some very dangerous opportunities, which Cryptic will have a far harder time controlling.

Candy_Heart

07-29-2008, 07:07 AM

/rant
wow, what a .... fortunately she is gone, as well as wrong.

(edit: in the interest of clarity:

read the link to the TOS she provides. It talks about reverse engineering, derivative works, hacking the game code... cheats basically. Pretty standard stuff. The so-called "Mods" used by the community to change maps, turn off sounds etc, are using a provided-by-the-developers, pointed out to us by the developers, explained to us, by devs... resource. Put there, for the users, for allowable client side minor changes. Not modifying the game code etc. Not in violation of the TOS. Its not a violation of the TOS nor the laws of the United States of America for some kid to stick a Red S on his chest. Regardless of what some customer service rep that doesn't understand the technology nor the terminology that goes along with it. If it was, then NcSoft would be going after those sites that allow people to modify their game (which our "Mods" do not do anyway), just like every other game company has been doing for years. The whole thing was just one woman's powertrip thinking she was 'right' and 'something must be done'. Note that not a single other representative has EVER replied to this thread. I would be happy to hear a definitive answer, but honestly, this subject was covered, by developers, in other forums, years ago. Good luck finding those posts though, its been a long long time. They never did add that ability to disable sounds, though they did change several, why? They didn't need to! Users already figured out how to fix it on their own *shrugs*.)

OH AND IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE I MOD MY CLIENT USING THE DATA FOLDER TO TURN OFF SOUNDS AND MARK MAPS... ok? I'm a 1%er? ha! I don't think so. Its so easy to do, because the developers make it so. You just stick a file in a folder that the game creates for you, to be used by you, the game doesn't use it, its an empty folder until you, the user, use it. Duh. Now if that's a violation of the TOS, please, I'm begging you, ban me. I could use the 15 dollars a month I been spending here for the last 4+ years. As much as I love this game, seriously, if this is really an issue, I'm asking for it, here I am. Also I am disabled and maybe we could do court :) I need something to occupy my time other than reading forums and science websites.

quotes from the tos:
you may not.. "(b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software" - "Mods" as the word is used by the City of.. community do not do this.

"However, you acknowledge and agree that you shall not reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly perform, or transmit any Game Content for commercial uses without first obtaining the express written consent of NC Interactive."

Map "Mods" by editing the in-game maps are Specifically allowed, for non-commercial distribution. This would cover sound mods, costume mods, etc. Fan stuff. They want fans to do this stuff, they provide an in-game service to allow fans to do this stuff! Or the TOS would say don't do it and the game would not load our "Mods" for us. And that's why map sites like vidiots.com and costume change mods found on many Supergroup sites are not being targeted by NcSoft legal. Very stupid to attack your fans as long as they are just-being-fans! CuppaJo must be a very personable woman, but she did not understand this stuff when she first came to work here, and I guess the boys just did not want to contradict the new girl. Understandable.

(so tired of kiddies endlessly debating things they know so very little about but speak so authoritatively against. lets find out.)
/rant

Psydekick

07-29-2008, 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dudes! Necro thread!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wait... it's stickied. No wonder everyone is replying to it.

Naaman_NA

09-21-2008, 12:13 PM

As far as I recall the moratorium on player mods was put in place soon after the little 'incident' with Marvel comics started.<ul type="square">
Mods allowed players to breach Marvel copyright
Players wouldn't get punished NCSoft\Cryptic would as they allowed it on their servers
NCSoft\Cryptic ruled that modding was dissallowed.[/list]

Couple of other points;
IIRC, the PIGG reader that was downloadable WAS reverse engineered, therefore using it breached the EULA.

So what if WoW allows mods? Yeah it's the 800lb gorilla but it's a freak nontheless - it would almost certainly be as popular even if it didn't allow mods. Personally I always thought it was because the interface was so gorramed clunky that it needed players to work out what they wanted an implement it. CoX is much simpler to play and doesn't need such a complicated interface.

Larvos

09-21-2008, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I recall the moratorium on player mods was put in place soon after the little 'incident' with Marvel comics started.<ul type="square">
Mods allowed players to breach Marvel copyright
Players wouldn't get punished NCSoft\Cryptic would as they allowed it on their servers
NCSoft\Cryptic ruled that modding was dissallowed.[/list]

Couple of other points;
IIRC, the PIGG reader that was downloadable WAS reverse engineered, therefore using it breached the EULA.

So what if WoW allows mods? Yeah it's the 800lb gorilla but it's a freak nontheless - it would almost certainly be as popular even if it didn't allow mods. Personally I always thought it was because the interface was so gorramed clunky that it needed players to work out what they wanted an implement it. CoX is much simpler to play and doesn't need such a complicated interface.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good reason for banning them, but alternatively they can just disable the ability to modify your character in such a way (WoW did such that actually).

I can understand your aversion to mods, but do try to understand that some of us like to modify things to better fit our preferences. I will give you that CoH is simpler, and it does have a good UI, but it doesn't mean that us mod fanatics can't do a thing or two with it (if it were allowable).

Ang_Rui_Shen

09-21-2008, 07:57 PM

In the four years this topic has been open, there have been many questions and calls for clarification noted here that have not been adequately addressed by a Red Name. Are they waiting for the thread's five year anniversary or something?

Naaman_NA

09-22-2008, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I can understand your aversion to mods,

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record I don't have an aversion to mods, just don't see their usefulness within CoX :)

Raven MacManus

01-14-2010, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I can understand your aversion to mods,

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record I don't have an aversion to mods, just don't see their usefulness within CoX :)

I'll give you an example:

Assault Rifle

Unless you want to turn off all game sounds, you're forced to endure a horrible looping sound every time you use any of the Assault Rifle powers.

Go ahead and tell me to slide FX to zero. Guess what? It doesn't turn off that horrendous "voom-voom-voom" that plays whenever you use your AR, completely drowning out every other sound in the room, from the sound of your own weapon firing to the sound of an enemy lighting up one of his own powers. With FX set to zero, my speakers STILL play that horrendous "voom-voom-voom" sound - I just don't get any OTHER sounds. Does that make sense to you?

Is it too much to ask for an EFFECTIVE way to control in-game sounds? If someone has a mod out there that does it, I'm all for supporting them. It's certainly not available without a mod.

Optic_Spark

03-27-2010, 12:02 PM

I can understand the peeps at NCSOFT not wanting anyone to mess with the software, so how about letting us edit the maps from with in the game as you can in Everquest.

In EQ you can input names, draw lines and pretty much edit your map anyway you want to ( since for whatever reason SOE doesn't like to actually like to provide maps at all... that sucks)

I think that would be a nice thing to beable to do to your own maps. then you always know on your maps where badges /plaques are certain lvl of mobs in the different areas of the zone your in.

Editing your own maps of the various zones doesn't give anyone an advantage in the game. You still have to collect the badges/ plaques etc your self, your just jotting down the locations of them on your maps so that you have a personal reference to them for your other toons.

Please let us edit our own maps with in CoX. please please please:D

Even if you produced an issue and the only thing you put in that issue was the ability to edit your maps in game, I would be happy as a pig in Poo. :p ( if a pig is truely happy in poo :confused:)

Ang_Rui_Shen

10-09-2010, 04:07 PM

Green Jelly

10-18-2010, 10:25 AM

I am new to this game. I understand how cheats can be made, and distributed, but censorship is hardly the answer, infact its part of the problem. Removing threads reduces the information available to NCSoft developers to others who desire to follow the rules. In addition, it brings an entire community underground onto websites that have little or no regard for the rules. Innocent people will install these programs without knowing that they are breaking the rules.

In addition, removing discussions about what may be valid modifications, further restricts this conversation, and many people will find out about them in game or in other, non-trusted sources.

Effectively this decision to CENSOR these discussions are limiting the ability for individuals who want to follow the TOS to obtain accurate information regarding these mods.

Since they may not see, or realize, that this decision has been made... Many people may have valid topics regarding Mods, which may lead to the conclusion that this is against the TOS.

Now I will wait for someone to say that you are responsible for reading and understanding the TOS. However, TOS agreements are in question within the court system. If you write a legal document that is widely ignored, unreadable, confusing, etc... Then those documents have no Merritt. Since TOS and License agreements are so widely used (in fact EVERY website has one), the courts are beginning to widely disregard these documents. To then refuse your customers access to information pertanent to understanding the TOS is to further reduce the users ability to make an informed decision in regards to accepting that TOS. Thus, one may make a very valid argument, that their ban/removal of the game for usage of a 3rd party modification or cheat is illegal under the grounds that the company intentionally with held information that would have otherwise prevented this mistaken and uninformed decision. Personally, I welcome these court challenges, and would like to see less censorship, more freedom, and non-confusing 12 page TOS agreements that you must agree to, when ever 20 minutes.

Please Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement for more information and case law examples of current trends in License and TOS agreements.

But I digress. Censorship is limiting information. Information empowers people to do right or wrong. Now you can say that most people will do wrong, however limiting information consistently leads to the inability for good people to do good, and generally empowers the strong to take advantage of the weak. If you want examples of this happening, I can pull hundreds of thousands of situations where decisions where decisions like this have failed.

Example: Borders made the decision to NOT to sell 2600. The problem is that most of the 2600 readers are individuals who are looking to secure their systems. They read about exploits and use that information to strengthen the computer systems they are in charge of. Limiting this information, brought this source of information out of the mainstream community (the book store consumers), and the publication was widely embraced by the underground and often criminal community. Eventually Borders witnessed this occur and they reversed their decision.

If I was NCSoft, I would look long and hard at these issues. These decisions are often knee jerk reactions without significant understanding and investigation of the topics and impacts that they have. I would suggest that they talk to information systems specialists (like Myself), who spend their lives studying how information is shared, used and how to allow for it to empower people to make the right decision. Their are many competent individuals who understand the impact both negative and positive behind these decisions.