Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers

[Vennom]

Have you ever wondered what the endurance effects for your toggle
powers are? Below is a partial table of endurance gains for powers,
measured in endurance per second (EPS). Unless otherwise noted, all
powers have zero slots. I put this together because I noted how
incorrect and inconsistent the available toggle power endurance
information has been.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-1.53 Instant Healing
-1.15 Whirlwind (base, without knockups)
-0.77 Integration
-0.73 Quills
-0.54 Super Speed
-0.46 Assault
-0.46 Maneuvers
-0.38 Stealth
-0.34 Sprint
-0.24 Hover
-0.08 Combat Jumping

"How did you get these numbers, and how can I help complete the
list?", you ask. That's a good question.

1. Copy a hero to the test server. Read "The Training Room (Test
Server)" message board to find out how to set up your test client at
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth
. Look for the post entitled "City of Heroes Character Copy Tool!!!".

2. Strip the endurance recovery and endurance reduction enhancements
from all powers that affect endurance (including Quick Recovery and
Stamina, if your hero has them).

3. Find a combination of toggle powers you can activate that will make
your endurance recovery be negative (you see your endurance bar being
drained toward zero). Not every hero can do this--you must have some
endurance-intensive toggles. Try to find a combination of toggle
powers that results in as slow a drain as possible: at least 5 minutes
to drain from full 100 endurance to zero. Use a stopwatch to time from
the moment you activate the last power (the one that makes the drain
negative) to the point where you hear one or more of your powers being
powered down for lack of endurance. Timing to the nearest second is
accurate enough.

4. Repeat step 3 to measure as many other combinations as you can.

5. Send me the results. Include which endurance-affecting powers you
have active as well as how long it took to drain from 100 to zero
endurance. Don't forget to list Quick Recovery and Stamina if you have
either of these.

I'll plug your results into my endurance spreadsheet and fit the power
endurance costs to minimize the total error of all results. For the
mathematically-minded, I currently have more equations (measurements)
than unknowns (toggle power EPS figures), and am able to fit them with
0.003 total EPS error, so I believe that the results are very
consistent, and I feel comfortable posting them to 2 decimal places.

[Pitho]

Neat, that's some good work there.

[Jade_Dragon]

Very nice. I did some similar computations in which I lowered Endurance to a given level (recording the Endurance) and then letting it rise back to near 100. I didn't let it get to 100 since usually the last "jump" is less than the full amount.

I'll send you the numbers. They look similar to what you have here. In a couple of cases, I doubted my own calculations, so I'll look over them again.

Of course, you realize that all of this is subject to change, and all your work can be undone by a single patch. :)

[Vennom]

One thing I forgot to mention is that you can do the character copy after you level but before you've trained. In that way, you can train various toggle powers on the test server. In particular, you may want to take Whirlwind or some other very endurance-intensive toggle in order to get enough of an endurance drain to be able to make measurements.

[Pitho]

I just tried with my invuln scrapper....invinc/sprint/tough/stance/quills doesn't seem to be enough to offset end recov with a no slotted stamina. Maybe when I gain a level I can copy to test and pick up super speed and run that too (unless it can't be run at the same time as sprint...)

[Ian_Of_Moore]

If you can get fly it is a very draining power. More than the base recovery. Without stamina you will run out of endurance with fly on. I'm gonna go on as my brothers toon and get fly numbers for ya! brb!

Edit: Amazing post btw. I hope it takes off!!

[Moncro]

This is a great thead and I hope people contribute more to it. I am no good with numbers, or I would gladly pile on. :p

[MrBurke]

I have a different measurement for Stamina. I measured the number of seconds between ticks and the amount of Stamina gained per tick by emptying my bar and watching the regeneration. Normally this rate is 4 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which you have on the chart. However, with Stamina (no enh), my rate is 3 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which is a gain of 0.55555555555 which matches what you have for Quick Recovery. Another thread about Quick Recovery and Stamina not stacking confirms this, although I do not have a link for it off hand.

[Ian_Of_Moore]

Normal recovery rate is 100 end per minute. Stamina increases this by 25 per minute. Quick recovery increases it by 33 1/3 per minute. and they do stack. Having stamina and quick recovery both 6 slotted with even SO's will give 275 end per minute.

[MrBurke]

That's my point, empirically speaking Stamina gives you 33 endurance pts. per minute, not 25. The thread I referred to has the time to go from 0 endurance to 100 pts. as 60 seconds normally, which agrees with your first assertion.

However, the other times to go from 0 to full do not match:

45 sec - Stamina (0 enh) - this is a +33 end/min rate gain
45 sec - Quick Recovery (0 enh) - this is also a +33 end/min rate gain
36 sec - Stamina (0 enh) + QR (0 enh) this is a total +66 end/min rate gain
30 sec - Stamina (6 enh) - this is a +100 end/min rate gain
30 sec - Quick Recovery (6 enh) - this is also a +100 end/min rate gain
20 sec - Stamina (6 enh) + QR (6 enh) - this is a +200 end/min rate gain

That pretty much shows that Stamina and Quick Recovery are currently equivalent powers in terms of how much benefit they give you.

[Ex_Libris]

I love people like you that figure these things out so I don't have to, keep up the good work :D

[Ian_Of_Moore]

Heres what I came up with for some powers:

Fly - 120 end per minute
Sprint - 20 end per minute
Dark embrace - 22.5 end per minute
Murky cloud - 22.5 end per minute
Death shroud - 45 end per minute
Hover - 15 end per minute (I kept getting 14 but 15 is a nicer number)

Some of these numbers arent exactly the same as the original numbers so the other numbers are probably correct. The OP seems really on the ball for eliminating error. Also if you don't have enough toggles to drain your endurance faster than it recharges you can measure by how fast your endurance recharges back to full:

End regenerated = Time * (regen rate - toggle cost)
Toggle cost = regen rate - end regenerated / time

so if you start at 25 endurance and it takes 60 seconds to recharge to 75 endurance and you don't have stamina or quick recovery:

toggle cost = 1.66666... - 50 / 60 = 0.8333... per second or 50 per minute

Only problem is that this method tends to be very imprecise so if you are serious you'll have to do this many times and take the average.

[Vennom]

MrBurke, I don't see your measurements as being in conflict with the numbers the devs have published on normal endurance recovery, quick recovery, and stamina.

Here are the EPS numbers given by the devs:
Normal Endurance Recovery: 5/3 EPS
Quick Recovery: 5/9 EPS (1/3 of normal)
Stamina: 5/12 EPS (1/4 of normal)

This equates to 100-endurance gain times of:
Normal endurance recovery: 60 sec
Normal + Quick Recovery (0 SO) + Stamina (0 SO): 37.89 sec
Normal + Quick Recovery (6 even SO) + Stamina (6 even SO): 21.82 sec

As a sanity check on the devs, I verified these times myself, and I was within one second of them. These are also very close to the numbers you gave. I believe that they are within the margin of error for what is measurable for endurance gains.

It is difficult to get a very accurate measurement when endurance is increasing because you are relying on visual cues that are only updated once every few seconds (the endurance bar). I believe that, internally, your endurance is updated at a higher rate. That is why I'm using the drain-to-0 method of measurement, which provides an ironclad cue (powers being deactivated). There's no guesswork.

[Vennom]

Ian_Of_Moore, does the hero you used have Stamina and/or Quick Recovery? Would you be willing to provide the raw drain-to-0 times so that I can plug them into my spreadsheet? As an example: Fly took xxx seconds to drain endurance from full to 0 on a hero with no stamina or quick recovery. Fly + Dark Embrace took yyy seconds. Fly + Murky Cloud took zzz seconds. And so on. This is the best way that I know to get accurate endurance measurements.

[Vennom]

Here's an update that adds EPS for Fly, Invincibility, Unyielding Stance, and Tough. Thanks go to Pitho for the data.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-2.02 Fly
-1.53 Instant Healing
-1.15 Whirlwind (base, without knockups)
-0.77 Integration
-0.73 Quills
-0.54 Super Speed
-0.46 Assault
-0.46 Maneuvers
-0.38 Stealth
-0.34 Sprint
-0.28 Invincibility
-0.28 Unyielding Stance
-0.24 Hover
-0.20 Tough
-0.08 Combat Jumping

[MrBurke]

What I'm referring to is that your numbers do not match the dev's, or what I got. Quick Recovery gives a 0.555 endurance pts. per second boost via reducing your tick interval. Stamina also gives 0.555 endurance pts. per second, not 0.42 end/sec. These numbers are reproducible on my character both ways, if you go from 100 to zero or from zero to 100. Either way, it's the same technique you listed, by measuring all the events in an uninterrupted series to avoid human timing errors.

[Vennom]

MrBurke,

I'm not sure why you say that my numbers don't match the devs' numbers, since that's where I got them from. I believe it was a post by Geko, who stated that normal endurance recovery is 0 to full in 60 seconds, quick recovery adds 1/3 of the normal rate, and stamina adds 1/4 of the normal rate. Of course, it appears that this post has since been deleted, although I'm sure that some here remember it.

Normal endurance recovery would then be 100 end / 60 sec = 1.67 EPS.

Quick Recovery would then be (1/3) * (100 end / 60 sec) = 0.56 EPS.

Stamina would then be (1/4) * (100 end / 60 sec) = 0.42 EPS.

If there is some error in the above, please let me know.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the measurements taken in that thread that you mention (I believe it is http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=967593 ), as ChaoticStreams already indicated that dying and using Awaken skewed his results.

[Garrik]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a different measurement for Stamina. I measured the number of seconds between ticks and the amount of Stamina gained per tick by emptying my bar and watching the regeneration. Normally this rate is 4 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which you have on the chart. However, with Stamina (no enh), my rate is 3 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which is a gain of 0.55555555555 which matches what you have for Quick Recovery. Another thread about Quick Recovery and Stamina not stacking confirms this, although I do not have a link for it off hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great thread, and has some interesting perspective on how the numbers work, and why the spines/regen scrappers make such a great combo.

I'm no expert on how the powers work, but something you said in the above post and something I remember hearing about before collided in my head. I recall someone stating that QR causes the amount of END recovered each tick to increase, and that Stamina causes the time between endurance recovery ticks to drop. So with QR, you get more END each tick, and with Stamina, the ticks come faster. Therefore the effects on slotting would be different, though the EPS is still a valid way to measure which one is better.

If this is the case, determining the optimal slotting would require a bit of algebra, but could be done.

Does this jive with your experiences?

-Garrik

[Pitho]

Stamina and quick recovery are basically the same power, just with different numbers to them : quick recovery is a bit stronger. That's it.

[Ian_Of_Moore]

Unfourtuantely endurance does not seem to update at a higher rate internally. I was also a little concerned with the visual cues I had to relying on. Mainly the fact that end recovers in tics of about 6.66 every few seconds. The problem is that if you start your toggle right before a tic you are getting an artificial boost to endurance since you are getting 2.5 seconds worth of endurance in less than 2.5 seconds. But that is avoidable if you time starting the draining power right after a tic. The main problem i see is that when your powers run out it'll be right before a tic was about to be applied. so you have about 2 seconds worth of endurance that you never got to spend. For example. Fly will bring my endurance down to 2 then i get a boost of 7. then it brings it down to 1 and i get a boost of 7. Finally fly drains it to 0 right before i can get my next boost. I tried doing it where i stop timing when it shuts off and kept getting 2.017 or 2.019. This is a really unfriendly number. I find it hard to belive the devs would make the drain of a power 2.02 instead of just 2. So i decided that i would stop timing right after a tic and look at how much end I had. I chose to stop at 10 so in my formula i added 90 instead of 100. When I did the calculations I ended up with 1.9997. Close enough to 2 to confirm my suspicions. I used this same method for all the other powers. Since the devs record end recharge in a scale or minutes when I multiplied by 60 I was getting numbers like 22.5112 and 44.996. The only one that didn't really turn out was hover. With all my toggles on it took forever to drain to even 90 so i just took it from there and got about 14. I figured it was really 15 but didn't have the patience for additional tests. Thats where I got my numbers. I don't have the times I recorded anymore so later I'll take a second to do it that way for you. And I didn't have stamina so that wasn't a factor. So ya. I'll be back!!

[WanderingCat]

I measured the toggle costs for focused fighting, focused senses, stealth, and combat jumping some time ago, by running end to zero, then turning one toggle on and timing how long it took to regen to 100 end.

Focused fighting, senses, and stealth all worked out to 0.333 end/sec.

Combat jumping seemed to take 0 end per second. Others have said that it's actually like 0.0375 end/sec. Either way, it's a very low number.

[Zero_Hero]

Can we get some numbers on Cloaking device, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics, Super Jump, and targeting drone?

Thank you. =]

Oh, and I would do this test, but I can drain my end to 0 with just toggels, heh.

[Pitho]

People have to help him with some times before he can give more numbers (stop being lazy).

[_Pax_]

Ok, now I gotta go buy a stop watch. I can work on US, TI, Invincibility, and Fly. Though with 4 slotted Stamina it takes 3 to drop my END so I don't know how useful of a number it'll be.

[Pitho]

Copy to test server, take enhancements out of stamina.
You can take enhancements out by clicking on it and dragging to the trash bin...it might take a few tries. Yes it does work...took me a bit to get it to work myself, but it was easier after the first time. It's really picky on what you have to click on.

Oh and a warning, you might want to have a book to read, or something. If the drain is slow enough it can take a WHILE. I had two trials that lasted a bit over 90 minutes...ended up reading most of the time, but talked to two people who happened to be on the test server at the same time for part of it.

[Ian_Of_Moore]

[ QUOTE ]
Copy to test server, take enhancements out of stamina.
You can take enhancements out by clicking on it and dragging to the trash bin...it might take a few tries. Yes it does work...took me a bit to get it to work myself, but it was easier after the first time. It's really picky on what you have to click on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so much picky on what you click on. You can click anywhere on the enhancement. You just need to hold down the mouse button without moving it until your cursor picks it up. Takes about 1 second.

[Zero_Hero]

heh, believe me, I tried. Even with all Endurance assossiated EHN removed, I still couldn't get myself to 0 end. I do belive it started ticking down, but at that rate, I would grow grey before I hit 0.

My method of testing End cost is ease, though about as scientific as drunk midget tossing uphill in the wind.

At full Endurance, I start turning on powers, from what I know to be least draining, to most draining, 1 by 1, and record how far from 100 my End will drop. Lowest I can get it, is it'll tick 96 for a milisecond, every 7 or 9 cycels of recovery. Using this simple method, i've figured out how to slot everything to max defence while minimize drain. Result:

SS and Sprint, both with just one End red SO in them, drain the most of all my powers. I do not use sprint, as I always have SS on. I'm thinking of adding another slot to it, just for end reduce. Combat jumping takes 0 END. I know this not to be true, but the number is so low, 0 is a safe number to base my slots upon. CJ is all Defence Buffs. Tough is another power like CJ. Though it does drain a tiny bit more, its not enough to worry about. With both CJ and tough toggeled on, my end never dips under 100. Cloaking device drains quiet a bit however. I have it 4 defence buffs and 1 End reduce. The 1 end reduce makes a sizeable difference. Targetting drone is a pig, compared to my other toggels. I have it 6 slotted, 4 ToHit, 2 End red.

As I get more powers, I can post my Simple Man solution. Possily, when I hit 44, i'll pick up flight on Training Room... er nm, can't, 4 pools...

Maybe whirlwind?

[Vennom]

Here's an update that adds EPS for Hurricane, Snow Storm, and Steamy Mist. Thanks go to Overboard for the data.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-2.03 Fly
-1.53 Instant Healing
-1.15 Whirlwind (base, without knockups)
-0.94 Hurricane
-0.77 Integration
-0.76 Snow Storm
-0.76 Steamy Mist
-0.73 Quills
-0.54 Super Speed
-0.46 Maneuvers
-0.44 Assault
-0.38 Stealth
-0.34 Sprint
-0.29 Invincibility
-0.29 Unyielding Stance
-0.24 Hover
-0.20 Tough
-0.08 Combat Jumping

[Pitho]

[ QUOTE ]
SS and Sprint, both with just one End red SO in them, drain the most of all my powers. I do not use sprint, as I always have SS on. I'm thinking of adding another slot to it, just for end reduce. Combat jumping takes 0 END. I know this not to be true, but the number is so low, 0 is a safe number to base my slots upon. CJ is all Defence Buffs. Tough is another power like CJ. Though it does drain a tiny bit more, its not enough to worry about. With both CJ and tough toggeled on, my end never dips under 100. Cloaking device drains quiet a bit however. I have it 4 defence buffs and 1 End reduce. The 1 end reduce makes a sizeable difference. Targetting drone is a pig, compared to my other toggels. I have it 6 slotted, 4 ToHit, 2 End red.

As I get more powers, I can post my Simple Man solution. Possily, when I hit 44, i'll pick up flight on Training Room... er nm, can't, 4 pools...

Maybe whirlwind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.....you're supposed to take the end reducers out of your powers too. With a training room copy losing enhancements doesn't matter (and base end use is what is being looked for).
And yeah, whirlwind would be a good choice for a training room power pick. If you look on the list he has already, it has a fairly high base drain to it.

[Zero_Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SS and Sprint, both with just one End red SO in them, drain the most of all my powers. I do not use sprint, as I always have SS on. I'm thinking of adding another slot to it, just for end reduce. Combat jumping takes 0 END. I know this not to be true, but the number is so low, 0 is a safe number to base my slots upon. CJ is all Defence Buffs. Tough is another power like CJ. Though it does drain a tiny bit more, its not enough to worry about. With both CJ and tough toggeled on, my end never dips under 100. Cloaking device drains quiet a bit however. I have it 4 defence buffs and 1 End reduce. The 1 end reduce makes a sizeable difference. Targetting drone is a pig, compared to my other toggels. I have it 6 slotted, 4 ToHit, 2 End red.

As I get more powers, I can post my Simple Man solution. Possily, when I hit 44, i'll pick up flight on Training Room... er nm, can't, 4 pools...

Maybe whirlwind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.....you're supposed to take the end reducers out of your powers too. With a training room copy losing enhancements doesn't matter (and base end use is what is being looked for).
And yeah, whirlwind would be a good choice for a training room power pick. If you look on the list he has already, it has a fairly high base drain to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I relize that training room is unimportant. What you quoted above is my Live server build, tested on training room.

With no Endurance recovery, or reduction cost, it would seemingly takes me years to hit 0 stam at my current build. With all toggels on, and no ehn what so ever, my End bar ticks down 100-99-98-97-96 and is then full again.

[Pitho]

ah....probably just copy over whenever you get to a level where you can change a skill and pick whirlwind on test. I had to copy over and choose super speed there so I would have an end drain.
If you look at the table so far, Whirlwind is about half of the end regen you would get from normal regen and an unslotted stamina. Toss sprint and super speed on top of that and you have a bit of a drain.

[DPark]

Has anyone been able to figure out the cost for Temporary Invulnerability?

On my scrapper, all I can tell for sure is that Super Jump, Sprint, and TI combined are not enough to offset basic endurance recovery. This is without Hasten, and without any Endurance cost reducers.

[Zero_Hero]

Back again. =]

Any new numbers on Tough, Weave and Acrobatics?

[Zero_Hero]

Anyone have new data?

[noble1]

Testing, and getting a value for tough at -.2028 EPM, which concurs with the posted -.20, I arrived at a value of -.2027 for Weave.

Will try acrobatics soon.

[noble1]

Then again, my controller with acrobatics cannot get down to low enough endurance consistantly (without enemies) to test for acrobatics, and unfortunately... as a mind controller... will not be level 28 for quite some time, for me to pick a new power in training room.

Note: For those who may be wondering, the best way i found to test is to activate whatever toggle power is in question, and continue teleporting in place (well, almost in place... put the cursor just left of the endurance bar with an overhead view) until you do not have enough endurance to teleport again. Then slide the cursor to the bar and when the number drops one last time for the last teleport, start the stopwatch and note that number. When your endurance hits the first number in the 90's, stop the timer and note the end number. Divide the amount of endurance recovered by the time passed to find EPM.

[noble1]

Anyone have data for tactics?

[Zero_Hero]

Noble one, great job testing! Thank you.

What server are you on?

[noble1]

Thanks.

Glad to help. I'm on Liberty server. Anyone who wants to help the cause is welcome to help my Controller level. :-)

[Vennom]

Here's another update. Thanks go to KittyFlame, ZeroG, and Blastinator for the data.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-2.02 Fly
-1.53 Instant Healing
-1.15 Whirlwind
-1.13 Mud Pots *
-0.94 Hurricane
-0.77 Snow Storm
-0.77 Steamy Mist
-0.77 Integration
-0.75 Blazing Aura *
-0.73 Quills
-0.71 Death Shroud
-0.55 Super Jump
-0.54 Super Speed
-0.46 Maneuvers
-0.45 Assault
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.38 Fire Shield *
-0.38 Focused Fighting *
-0.38 Personal Force Field *
-0.38 Stealth
-0.36 Targetting Drone
-0.35 Rock Armor *
-0.34 Sprint
-0.32 Acrobatics
-0.30 Cloaking Device
-0.28 Invincibility
-0.28 Unyielding Stance
-0.24 Hover
-0.20 Tough
-0.20 Weave *
-0.11 Oppressive Gloom
-0.08 Combat Jumping

* Powers marked with an asterisk are submissions that were measured
using some method other than the drain-to-zero method, so I am not
able to check their validity. I am listing them here until
drain-to-zero measurements for these powers become available.

[Zero_Hero]

Vennom, great job with the list! A small concern however; according to you, Stealth actually drains MORE then Cloaking device. Acording to in-game discription along with personal experience, this is false. I think the numbers are just reversed. Would you be so kind as to retest these two powers?

[noble1]

After a couple hours of testing...
Invisibility has a big drain of 1.49916, or a EPS value of -1.50

What about tactics, anybody?

[Baaric]

Dunno if I did this right or if this is even helpful, but here's what I tested.

Removed all 6 enh from Stamina. No Endurance reducerers in any powers.

Turned on SS (1 run), Sprint (1 run), Cloaking Devices (1 def), and Targeting Drone(3 to hit). Only toggles I have.

After about an hour running this, no endurance lost was noted. Lowest number I ever saw was 95.

I don't have enough toggles to make a dent, so I don't know if I can be of more help.

[Ian_Of_Moore]

[ QUOTE ]
Vennom, great job with the list! A small concern however; according to you, Stealth actually drains MORE then Cloaking device. Acording to in-game discription along with personal experience, this is false. I think the numbers are just reversed. Would you be so kind as to retest these two powers?

[/ QUOTE ]

It kinda makes sense that cloaking device would be less end cost than stealth. Since they both have the same def bonus and the same concealment factor and stealth is a pool power it should somehow be worse than cloaking device. not better. But I have absolutely no experience with either power so I could easily be totally wrong.

[Zero_Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vennom, great job with the list! A small concern however; according to you, Stealth actually drains MORE then Cloaking device. Acording to in-game discription along with personal experience, this is false. I think the numbers are just reversed. Would you be so kind as to retest these two powers?

[/ QUOTE ]

It kinda makes sense that cloaking device would be less end cost than stealth. Since they both have the same def bonus and the same concealment factor and stealth is a pool power it should somehow be worse than cloaking device. not better. But I have absolutely no experience with either power so I could easily be totally wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, however stealth says that because of its speed penilty, it costs less END,

[noble1]

I don't have anyone wwith cloaking device, but will try stealth when I get a chance, maybe tonight. Then we can see which number it agrees with.

[noble1]

A really quick check (since my last post) gave me a value for stelath of -0.375, which concurs with the posted -0.38, so I guess that one is right.

[Starfox_NA]

I sent in some more measurements. Until we get Vennom to update his list or dispute my results, a temporary update for the following powers:

-1,46 Arctic air
-0,59 Quills
-0,47 Tactics

[Zero_Hero]

Call it a bumpfuzzle, but I really don't want to see this uber thread die.

[Felicty_Flame]

Yes, the number for Cloaking Device is too low, if the other numbers are correct. My Ice/Dev blaster has static End, meaning no loss and no recovery, bar stays as is, with the following toggles on:

Targetting Drone: .36
Sprint: .34
Acrobatics: .32
Cloaking Device: .30 (?)
CJ: .08

The total of of those numbers is 1.40. If normal End recovery is 1.67, then I should be recovering End slowly, but I'm not. That means one of those numbers is too low. I suspect it is CD, because getting CD is what started to cause major End problems for this character in spite of some End recovery buffs I get from teammates. CD feels like a big End sucker.

- felicity

[Starfox_NA]

I amstrongly starting to suspect the figure for Fly is too high. All numbers I have derived from Fly + a tested power yeilded low figures for the tested power.

[Lephthur]

Great thread. Going home now to copy and test Rad defender toggles. Heh... running out of end will NOT be a problem. EF will do it all by itself I'm sure. :)

[Overboard]

[ QUOTE ]
I amstrongly starting to suspect the figure for Fly is too high. All numbers I have derived from Fly + a tested power yeilded low figures for the tested power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I calculated the results for Snowstorm, Steamy Mist, Hurricane, Assault, and Fly independent of Vennom's numbers. I provided him with the time-to-drain values and he calculated the same results (within 0.01). I did tests using each of the toggles with fly and then all toggles without fly. I could run further combinations, but without fly they get very lengthy.

[Sillvanor]

Is this thread still being updated? I sent off the times for Superior Invisibility to the OP. Just wondering if an updated list is coming?

[_Pax_]

[ QUOTE ]
I sent in some more measurements. Until we get Vennom to update his list or dispute my results, a temporary update for the following powers:

-1,46 Arctic air
-0,59 Quills
-0,47 Tactics

[/ QUOTE ]
Quills has to be higher than that. With Quills going (and no other toggles) my 6 slotted QR (6 DO, no SO yet) doesn't keep me fighting very long. Quills feels close to Integration than that.

[Vennom]

Sorry for the delay in sending an update. My computer died and it's taken me a while to get everything back in order. I'll send an update as soon as possible.

[Sillvanor]

Yay!
Sorry about the computer problems.

[Starfox_NA]

I did a solo test on flight, exactly confirming Venom's time.

[Orbano]

excellent thread!

[Sillvanor]

Can anyone post the formula used?

Vennom, still having computer troubles?

[SaberCat]

I ran this "drain to zero" test for Dispersion Field. Unfortunately, the only combo of toggles I have that would drain my End is DF+Fly and therefore I hit zero pretty fast. But here are my numbers and math for what they are worth.

I have no end recovery enhancements or powers.

Dispersion Field + Fly 'drain to zero' = 90 seconds

-100 End / 90 sec = -1.11 EPS

So...
1.67 - Fly - DF = -1.11
or
DF = 1.67 - 2.02 + 1.11 = 0.76

Conclusion:
-0.76 Dispersion Field

That sound about right?

[Vennom]

Here's an update. Thanks go to Stephen_Starfox, Sillvanor, and The_SaberCat for the measurements.

Note that I cannot edit the original post due to forum permissions (sigh), so replying will have to do. Eventually, I'll start a new thread to avoid too much clutter.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-2.03 Fly
-1.54 Instant Healing
-1.46 Arctic Air
-1.42 Superior Invisibility
-1.15 Whirlwind
-1.13 Mud Pots *
-0.94 Hurricane
-0.77 Integration
-0.76 Snow Storm
-0.76 Steamy Mist
-0.75 Dispersion Field
-0.75 Blazing Aura *
-0.73 Quills
-0.71 Death Shroud
-0.54 Super Jump
-0.53 Super Speed
-0.46 Tactics
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.44 Assault
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.38 Stealth
-0.38 Fire Shield *
-0.38 Focused Fighting *
-0.38 Personal Force Field *
-0.35 Sprint
-0.35 Targetting Drone
-0.35 Rock Armor *
-0.32 Acrobatics
-0.29 Cloaking Device
-0.28 Invincibility
-0.28 Unyielding Stance
-0.22 Tough
-0.22 Hover
-0.20 Weave *
-0.12 Oppressive Gloom
-0.08 Combat Jumping

* Powers marked with an asterisk are submissions that were measured using some method other than the drain-to-zero method, so I am not able to check their validity. I am listing them here until someone submits drain-to-zero measurements for these powers.

[Sillvanor]

Thanks Vennom. Good stuff!

[lanmat]

Respec offers many more opportunities to test things like this much faster...so I took the liberty and did my own tests and came up with essentially the same numbers as Venom.

I was curious, however, to find out what Hasten does to the whole end picture. No one mentions anything except that it takes away 20 when it runs out, but the description seems to make it look like hasten also slows your base end recovery while it's on. I'm sure there's something about this in one of the hasten threads, but I'm not about to scour 202 pages of posts looking for this information. The only hard part was finding a combination of toggles that would reduce me to zero end before the 2 minutes were up for hasten so that I wouldn't get an erroneous number. Flight and super speed seemed to hit a sweet spot (no stamina at all) at full-to-zero in 1:51.54 and 1:50.8 (two trials). With hasten on, 1:50.88, 1:50.79...no effect. So I'm glad to report the ONLY thing hasten does to endurance is take away 20 when it's finished. Since it lasts for 120 sec, that's an effective rate of -0.17 on the average.

BTW, thanks for all the good testing, people! I myself have 5 toggles running (TD, CD, SS, CJ, Hasten) and the slots where the end reducers go can be very critical in a battle. Just for those who were wondering, with 6-slot stamina and 4 slots of end reducers to disperse, the remaining recharge rate (after toggles were taken out) hit a max with 2 in SS and 1 in both TD and CD. Remaining end recharge = 1.85...still higher than normal...but not quite the 2.15 I had before respec. <sigh> ...the price you pay for complete invisibility and convenient accuracy. Oh, well. :)

[SaberCat]

Good job Vennom!

Btw, doesn't this:
-0.46 Tactics
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.44 Assault

seem like a margin of error kinda thing? Or would the Devs actually throw a +/- 0.01 EPS into the Leadership pool on purpose?

Just seems like there are a lot of powers grouped around certain numbers like -0.75, -0.40, -0.45, etc and I wonder if the Devs really created powers with this many different EPSs.

That said, technically I calculated -0.76 for Dispersion Field, not -0.75. ;)

[Vennom]

I forgot to mention that I'll be redoing the measurements that I originally made on my Scrapper to see if any endurance costs have changed with Issue 2. I have seen posts where people observed apparent changes, so it's worth checking.

[Vennom]

The_SaberCat,

I agree--the EPS for Tactics, Maneuvers, and Assault is probably exactly the same. I'm just posting the raw numbers I get and you can round them how you see fit. I want to avoid putting any human bias into my results so that you can get the best data possible!

In some domain, all of these numbers probably are nice and round, although I haven't figured out what that domain is. It's not endurance-per-second, nor is it endurance-per-minute. In developer-land somewhere, though, you can bet that there are some nice even numbers that people are using for endurance consumption. One possibility is that there is nice round endurance per tick number for each power, but that the tick interval also varies among powers.

[SaberCat]

Good point about these numbers probably looking very simple in the Dev time-space continuum - whatever the heck that is!

Also, good choice on not 'fudging' the numbers in any way even if some seem fairly obvious.

[Sleepless]

This is great thread.

Any one have endurance numbers for Phase Shift?

[akita51]

nice work, thanks

[MrQuizzles]

I used my own methods of calculation to do this, but I got that...

Shadowfall uses .75 end/sec

Not too bad for a group stealth/defense/resistance buff. Although I have yet to test whether this number goes up with the amount of people affected by the power. I haven't noticed it ever before, so I doubt it.

[Jade_Dragon]

I never posted any of the numbers I came up with because they were inconsistent for Focused Fighting and Stealth, the only ones you didn't have. However, I just did some testing for Temporary Invulnerability, and it consistently comes out to -0.39.

I didn't use the decay to zero technique, as I mentioned above I started with a given low number and recorded the amount of time it took to reach the last "tic" before reaching 100.

[Stellyx]

[ QUOTE ]
Any one have endurance numbers for Phase Shift?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did some testing this weekend to find out the numbers for invis and phase shift, neither of which I see on the chart.

Phase Shift is an end hog - easily the most expensive toggle I've found in the game. I did five tests, and with NOTHING else running, I ran out of endurance in 75, 76, 76, 76, 77 seconds. That's too fast to be very precise... but it yields a rough approximation of 2.98 EPS... yikes!

I tested Invisibility a number of different ways:
1) Invis by itself running -- after 15 minutes, the bar was still at the top.
2) Invis + sprint: power down at 550 seconds. Taking the posted value of .35 for sprint, Invis comes out at ~1.502
3) Invis + Maneuvers: power down at 336 seconds. Taking the posted value of .45 for maneuvers, invis comes out at ~1.518
4) Invis + Assault: power down at 335 seconds. Taking the posted value of .44 for Assault, invis comes out at ~1.528
5) Invis + Assault + Maneuvers: power down at 131 seconds. Using .89 for Assault + Maneuvers, invis comes out at ~1.543

Side note: If Maneuvers and Assault are indeed different EPS, I should have seen a ~13 second change in the time-to-power-down on my invisibility test when I used them individually, but I didn't. The only difference was within the realm of testing error (one second), which makes me think that contrary to the postings here they ARE the same value. Furthermore, that the value is probably .46 EPS as was posted at the top of the thread, not .45/.44 as was in the latest one. Using .46 for each gives the following results:

1) no change
2) no change (~1.502)
3) Invis + Maneuvers (.46): Invis ~= 1.508 (would yield 335.57 sec)
4) Invis + Assault (.46): Invis ~= 1.508 (as above)
5) Invis + Maneuvers + Assault (.46): Invis ~= 1.512

These values make all of my observed data consistent in a way that the lower/different values cannot, so I trust them far more. It's not a MAJOR difference, but it is enough to screw up other calculations if people are running leadership toggles plus X to try and get a value for X...

Anyway... If you go with the more consistent set of data, then Invis ~= 1.51 for all tests. It would make more sense to me if Invis were 1.5 and Phase Shift 3.0 (instead of 1.51 and 2.98, as I calculated), but who knows what's in the developers' minds? :)

I've got an unused respec sitting around, so I think I'll go to the test server and try picking up Stamina, superleap, and whatever else I can get for my existing build, then give it another try to see if I can get the numbers to match. Will post the raw data here. In the mean time... great thread, nice numbers, and I hope this helps.

[theHasbeen]

[ QUOTE ]
One possibility is that there is nice round endurance per tick number for each power, but that the tick interval also varies among powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet on a combination of the 2. For fly, you can visually see your endurance bar move down about every half second, consistent with 2 end per second, but then shoot back up only every few seconds.

Time would seem more consisent with how endurance reduction is done with enhancements. Simply add 33% to the time between ticks for each one, and the effect is a 1/1.33 reduction. However you also have to consider how endurance cost of non-toggle powers is handled. Since there is no "tick" for them, there must be a flat out reduction.

I would think it's both at the same time, which is why we're having so much trouble finding consistency. There is no constant time between ticks or endurance cost per tick. We have to look for X cost per Y time.

[Booom]

Bump. Incredible thread! Thank you guys, this had been really helpful to me.

Can any high level radiation controllers with a stopwatch get the data on radiation infection, enervating field, and choking cloud? I would love to see what the cost is for those 3 spells.

[Firewolfe]

adding this thread to my favourites

[theHasbeen]

Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?

[Jade_Dragon]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that myself, and plan to do some research on it. I doubt it's as exact as that. (it would be hard to animate a time span that exactly as a set of image frames, although it could be done "on the fly") However, it's worth looking into.

[Jade_Dragon]

[ QUOTE ]
Time would seem more consisent with how endurance reduction is done with enhancements. Simply add 33% to the time between ticks for each one, and the effect is a 1/1.33 reduction. However you also have to consider how endurance cost of non-toggle powers is handled. Since there is no "tick" for them, there must be a flat out reduction.

I would think it's both at the same time, which is why we're having so much trouble finding consistency. There is no constant time between ticks or endurance cost per tick. We have to look for X cost per Y time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's entirely possible that there is no "tic", per se, but instead the new value is calculated every time there is an update to the client. Thus it is a simulated constant decrease in End, rather than a "tic". Or there may actually be a timer on the server which operates faster than the rate of updates.

However, the increase is large enough to be noticable, and comes at a very precise time. So it's possible that the increase and decrease follow different rules. Toggles are constant, but recovery only comes on a "tic". (Every four seconds)

[Mongoose22]

Great thread, have had this one bookmarked for ages. ;) It might be useful at this point to catalog which powers have not been documented. Here's a list of the toggle powers organized by power set. Powers marked with an asterisk (*) are unverified by Vennom, including a couple I put in from posts to this thread. Powers marked with a pound (#) are in more than one power set and possibly could have different values depending on which set they're in. Blazing Aura in particular is likely wrong for either the blaster or tanker version, since blasters have lower endurance usage (although tankers had that changed, too). Powers with question marks, of course, haven't been documented.

Biggest holes I see are for Ice and Stone tankers, Dark Armor, and Radiation defenders/controllers.

BLASTER SECONDARIES
----------
Devices
-0.35 Targetting Drone
-0.29 Cloaking Device

Electricity Manipulation
????? Lightning Field

Fire Manipulation
-0.75 Blazing Aura #
????? Hot Feet #

Ice Manipulation
????? Chilling Embrace #


CONTROLLER PRIMARIES
----------
Fire Control
????? Hot Feet #

Ice Control
-1.46 Arctic Air

Illusion Control
-1.42 Superior Invisibility

Mind Control
????? Telekinesis


CONTROLLER SECONDARIES
----------
Force Field
-0.38 Personal Force Field *#
-0.75 Dispersion Bubble #
????? Repulsion Field #
????? Force Bubble #

Kinetics
????? Repel #

Radiation Emission
????? Radiation Infection #
????? Enervating Field #
????? Choking Cloud #

Storm Summoning
-0.76 Snow Storm #
-0.76 Steamy Mist #
-0.94 Hurricane #


DEFENDER PRIMARIES
----------
Dark Miasma
????? Darkest Night
-0.75 Shadow Fall *

Force Field
-0.38 Personal Force Field *#
-0.75 Dispersion Bubble #
????? Repulsion Field #
????? Force Bubble #

Kinetics
????? Repel #

Radiation Emission
????? Radiation Infection #
????? Enervating Field #
????? Choking Cloud #

Storm Summoning
-0.76 Snow Storm #
-0.76 Steamy Mist #
-0.94 Hurricane #


SCRAPPER PRIMARIES
----------
Spines
-0.73 Quills


SCRAPPER SECONDARIES
----------
Dark Armor
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.71 Death Shroud
????? Murky Cloud
????? Obsidian Shield
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
????? Cloak of Fear
-0.12 Oppressive Gloom

Invulnerability
????? Temp Invulnerability #
-0.28 Unyielding Stance #
-0.28 Invincibility #

Regeneration
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
-0.77 Integration
-1.54 Instant Healing

Super Reflexes
-0.38 Focused Fighting *
-0.38 Focused Senses *
????? Evasion


TANKER PRIMARIES
----------
Fiery Aura
-0.75 Blazing Aura #
-0.38 Fire Shield *
????? Plasma Shield

Ice Armor
????? Frozen Armor
????? Hoarfrost
????? Chilling Embrace #
????? Wet Ice
????? Icicles
????? Glacial Armor
????? Hibernate

Invincibility
????? Temp Invulnerability #
-0.28 Unyielding Stance #
-0.28 Invincibility #

Stone Armor
-0.35 Rock Armor *
-1.13 Mud Pots *
????? Rooted
????? Brimstone Armor
????? Mineral Armor
????? Crystal Armor
????? Granite Armor


INHERENT POWERS
----------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
-0.35 Sprint


POOL POWERS
----------
Concealment
-0.38 Stealth
-1.51 Invisibility *
-2.98 Phase Shift *

Fighting
-0.22 Tough
-0.20 Weave *

Fitness
+0.42 Stamina
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)

Flight
-0.22 Hover
-2.03 Fly
????? Group Fly

Leadership
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.46 Tactics
-0.44 Assault

Leaping
-0.08 Combat Jumping
-0.54 Super Jump
-0.32 Acrobatics

Speed
-0.53 Super Speed
-1.15 Whirlwind

[Pitho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that myself, and plan to do some research on it. I doubt it's as exact as that. (it would be hard to animate a time span that exactly as a set of image frames, although it could be done "on the fly") However, it's worth looking into.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I heard that instant healing's spins faster when more healing enhancers are slotted in it...

[Saccade]

I PM'd this info to Venomm, but I figured I'd share it here as well:

I ran some tests on Force Bubble ... and let me tell you, this sucker makes Phase Shift look like Combat Jumping!

With no enhancements slotted, this bad boy sucked my FF Defender slave's endurance dry in 39 seconds in one test, 40 in another. This is WITH Stamina (enhancements removed), by the way.

I also did some testing with Stone Armour, but some silly person cast Speed Boost on me towards the end of a 10+ minute test. Since it was after 2 AM I figured I'd try it again later ... and then I realized we don't have confirmed costs on some other Stone Armor toggles. I will wait until he levels some more so I can use power pools to isolate individual Stone Armor toggle powers.

Wonderful, wonderful thread ... thanks for all the work, everyone!!

[_Eve__NA]

I ran a test similar to Vennom's just now for Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. Running 5-slotted Stamina, Manuevers, Tactics, Super Jump and Enervating Field (with 3 endurance reduction), I timed 305 seconds from empty to full. Then I switched on RI, and timed 215 seconds back to zero. I did this a few times and feel pretty comfortable with these numbers +/- five seconds.

By my calculation, this gives EF = -1.63 EPS, and RI = -0.68 EPS.

[ioars]

I'm very curious to know what Choking cloud is. When I have time, I'll respec on test and provide some numbers.

[SaberCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I ran some tests on Force Bubble ... and let me tell you, this sucker makes Phase Shift look like Combat Jumping!

With no enhancements slotted, this bad boy sucked my FF Defender slave's endurance dry in 39 seconds in one test, 40 in another. This is WITH Stamina (enhancements removed), by the way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Force Bubble drained you to zero END in 40 seconds BY ITSELF?!?!? No other END drains were running in that 40 seconds? AND you have unslotted Stamina?!?!

Holy bejebus!

-100 END/40 seconds = -2.5 EPS

So...
1.67 + .42 - FB = -2.5 EPS
or
FB = 2.5 + .24 + 1.67 = 4.59!?!?

Conclusion (?):
-4.59 Force Bubble

I repeat, Holy bejebus!!

:)

[_Eve__NA]

Io, and any Rads interested:

I made some mistakes with my calculations last night, thinking that my SOs were giving me 20% instead of 33% enhancement. Since I had so many powers running with those measurements and could have made a bunch more mistakes, I decided to run it again, but this time I just copied to test, respec'd with no stamina, and ran the endurance drain with no reductions.

This time I got:
- EF running alone: gain 11 end over 1 minute, 22 over 2 min, 32 over 3 min
- EF with RI: lose 62 end over 3 minutes
- CC running alone: gain 55 end over 2 minutes

This gives:
EF = -1.48 EPS
RI = -.58 EPS
CC = -1.21 EPS

Considering how much simpler my setup was this time, I think this should be more accurate.

[theHasbeen]

Upon further inspection, I noticed Combat Jumping circles at the same rate as Sprint. So unless our numbers for that are way off, I think it's just a graphic.

[Saccade]

[ QUOTE ]
-4.59 Force Bubble

I repeat, Holy bejebus!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about it! I swear, ZERO enhancements in Stamina or Force Bubble and 40 seconds to drain, with NO other toggles running.

With fully slotted +3 SO's in Stamina and 1 +3 SO endurance reduction in Force Bubble, it will STILL drain endurance faster than I can regen it.

The only way my FF bot can run toggles is 6-slotting FB with endurance reduction SO's. That lets him run: FB (6 EndRx), Dispersion Bubble (1 EndRx), Tactics (0 EndRx), Manuvers (1 EndRx). If I turn on Super Speed with 1 EndRx in it, I start to lose endurance.

Pretty scary, let me tell ya!

[BubbleGamma]

In the above thread, Stamina recharge is listed +0.42 EPS and +1.25 EPS six-slotted. But others have tested out +0.57/+1.667. Further, these higher numbers are consistent with the 200% recharge rate that is often quoted for stamina six-slotted.

So, which are the numbers endorsed by this thread?

[Ravendas16]

To make the lists easier to read and find, why dont you just edit your first post and put the lists of stats in there? Or is there a time limit involved in when you can edit a post?

But, thanks for all the work, its good stuff.

[ioars]

Sweet. Thanks for the numbers Complexity. Interesting how Choking cloud end cost is so low. Even lower than EF?

[WingedKagouti_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
To make the lists easier to read and find, why dont you just edit your first post and put the lists of stats in there? Or is there a time limit involved in when you can edit a post?

[/ QUOTE ]
There is indeed a time limit to editing posts.
[ QUOTE ]
Sweet. Thanks for the numbers Complexity. Interesting how Choking cloud end cost is so low. Even lower than EF?

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason CC seems like a huge drain is that the drain is 6 end / 5 sec pause / 6 end / 5 sec pause / etc. Still a respectable drain.

[Babaganoosh]

I would like to see some numbers on the Ice Armor powerset please.

[Lobster]

Looks like [CONTROLLER] hot feet is ~-.72 eps. My calculations:

1:31 to drain end running to 0: maneuvers, SS, sprint, stealth & HOT FEET

-100/91 = =-1.099 eps


+2.09 base end regen (base + stamina no enhances)
-.53 SS
-.45 man
-.38 stealth
-.35 sprint
=+.38 eps

-.719 eps HOT FEET
=-1.099 eps

group fly: ~-1.21 EPS
start 47:15, end 48:40
1:25 to drain end running: sprint, hurricane, steamy mist & GROUP FLY
-100/85 = -1.18 eps

+2.09 base end regen
-.95 hurricane
-.76 steamy mist
-.35 sprint
=+.03 eps
-1.21 GROUP FLY
=-1.18 eps


Did I do the calculations right?
[EDIT: Because I found the group fly # surprising, I checked it vs fly - with the same setup fly took about 50 seconds to drain me to zip - so group fly is definitely cheaper than fly. with 4 sos it seems about as fast as fly with 1.]

[Bean_Sidhe]

I have a question:

Do END reduction enhancements affect only the activation cost or do they have an effect on the EPS cost as well?

EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out.

[Lobster]

Bah, it wouldn't let me edit my old post. Checked cost for added passengers on group fly. For pets (imps) at least, it was -.32 eps per pet.

So we have:
Hot feet:-.719 eps
Group Fly: -1.18 eps -.32eps/passenger (2 passengers is cheaper than fly, 3 is more)

Also, I clocked group fly, it is about ~23 mph base. For comparison, fly's base ~32 mph and sprint with a run speed SO ~23mph.

[RevMrBlack]

I tested out Darkest Night and got a EPS cost of 0.75. That sounds about right, as Shadow Fall is also 0.75. I'll check some of my alts and see if I can figure out any other toggle costs.

Don't let this thread get buried! Post your numbers so others can enjoy!

[speeka]

Great thread!

now who is going to be clever enough to put in an excel spreadsheet where we can select out powers, select our enhancements and show the graph over time of endurance :p

(I, unfortunately, am excel challenged !)

Does anyone have a number for recovery aura? If not, I can go try out

[ioars]

I'm working on something better than a XLS, stay tuned.

[Waggler]

I've been asked to pass on this link to a spreadsheet...

clikeh! (http://www.geocities.com/laportejd/CoH.xls)

I've not checked it out myself as I don't have Excel so no complaints to me please!

Anyway the author can be found at XiDrablog@yahoo.com

or PM'd as Xidra on VN if you have any queries.

Hope it helps.

[ioars]

Here's my calculator based off the numbers above. I'll continually update the page with newer numbers as people find them. If there's any problems you find, let me know. I've tested it in IE and Firefox. Your selections will automatically get saved to a browser cookie so you can come back to the page and they will be there.

Toggle Endurance Cost Calculator (http://www.arscoh.com/phpBB2/calcs/toggleendcosts.html)

[Bunker]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my calculator based off the numbers above. I'll continually update the page with newer numbers as people find them. If there's any problems you find, let me know. I've tested it in IE and Firefox. Your selections will automatically get saved to a browser cookie so you can come back to the page and they will be there.

Toggle Endurance Cost Calculator (http://www.arscoh.com/phpBB2/calcs/toggleendcosts.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

that is the coolest thing since sliced bread! AWESOME!!!

[ioars]

We still need numbers for Accelerate Metabolism. Also, wouldn't getting those accolades that add +5% to end affect the EPS numbers?

Using base end recovery, 1.67 EPS means going from empty to full (0-100) takes 59.88 seconds.

Now if you have an accolade that gives you +5%, going from 0-105 would still take 59.88 seconds according to how end recovery works. Wouldn't that make the base end recovery

105/59.88 = 1.75

? I think its important to know if this is true.

Or, perhaps end recovery is based off the base end pool. So the accolade wouldn't matter. Hmmmm

[Firewolfe]

We also need numbers for Ice Tank primary.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have a number for recovery aura? If not, I can go try out

[/ QUOTE ]

I have tried getting this, but it is veryhard to get enough toggles to actually LOSE end using it. At this point in time, the end recovery of Recovery Aura is best described as "enough" - I can go crazy with my blasts and still recover.

[Starfox_NA]

I did a respec on test to check the efficiency of Recovery Aura (Empathy Defender).

I ran the following toggles (all unehanced): Sprint, Tactics, Assault, Maneuvers, Fly, Super Jump, Acrobatics, Super Speed, Whirlwind.

With Recovery Aura running, I ran out of endurance in 82 seconds, which indicates a recovery boost of 3.41 end/sec.

Because of the many factors involved and the short time, this is a rough estimate only. As I forgot to put recharge enhancements into RA, I only did it once. But an estimate is better than nothing.

It shows that Recovery Aura beats Stamina and Quick Recovery by a magnitude of 10 - no surprise there. With 6 SO recharge and Hasten, I get a downtime on RA of just under a minute.

PS: The Whirlwind animation looks crazy - never saw it before.

[ioars]

this is not a bump.

[SunderX]

Very useful stuff for the character planning. My main is a Regen Scrapper, who also took fitness, this is a real blessing so that I can map out what powers I can run and avoid endurance issues.

Why? Because as regen, I have NO defense vs. damage, and I need to know this stuff! Thanks!

Happy gaming! :cool:

-SunderX

[Grotus]

[ QUOTE ]
SCRAPPER PRIMARIES
----------
Spines
-0.73 Quills
SCRAPPER SECONDARIES
----------
Dark Armor
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.71 Death Shroud
????? Murky Cloud
????? Obsidian Shield
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
????? Cloak of Fear
-0.12 Oppressive Gloom


[/ QUOTE ]

I did some testing, and sent the raw numbers to Vennom. Some of the results that I came up with:
Quills is less than what is shown, I'd estimate closer to 0.6
Murky Cloud, Dark Embrace, Obsidian Shield, and Cloak of Darkness are all exactly the same for END drain.
The estimates for Invisibility and Phase Shift check out.
Cloak of Fear is about the same as Death Shroud, around 0.005 less.

An interesting tidbit, Invisibility turns off not only Stealth, but also Cloak of Darkness. I don't remember if I tried Stealth and Cloak of Darkness together.

[ioars]

Great! I've updated the calculator.

[Ebon_Wrath]

I love your calculator. I added it to my favourite threads immediately.

I'd like to see additional recovery bonuses in the top part of the calculator. For instance, if you were to add Unstoppable or Accelerated Metabolism. That would make it even better.

[ioars]

[ QUOTE ]
I love your calculator. I added it to my favourite threads immediately.

I'd like to see additional recovery bonuses in the top part of the calculator. For instance, if you were to add Unstoppable or Accelerated Metabolism. That would make it even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would need fairly accurate numbers from someone that's willing to test those powers before I add them to the list. I dont want to add powers there with numbers based on speculation.

[Kibbo]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

I'm a 25 BS/Regen Scrapper, and you just showed me that I can slot my attacks before I need to slot Stamina and still run IH.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

[Leprechauna]

Io_ars, let me start by saying that your Endurance Toggle Calculator seriously rocks. ;) In fact, the whole idea of getting quantitative info on powers is great.

I was wondering if you could make a few changes to your calculator. First, could the "Endurance Regen Powers" be expanded to include things like RA, AM, Unstoppable, etc.? That way we could calculate how many extra toggles we can have on in certain circumstances.

Second, would it be possible to just have a flat list of powers with EPS next to them? Even something as simple as putting them on the dropdown would help. That way, you can tell at a glance which powers are the big end hogs. ;)

Lastly, a minor request on display. My windows background is set to black... so I can't see any of the dropdown entries. Could you either use the windows colors / force the setting of foreground / background colors in your dropdown?

This is an awesome tool... one that I hope everyone uses. Kudos!

[ioars]

Thanks for the compliments. The real compliments should go to Vennom who started this thread as well as to the people who have taken their time to measure all the toggle costs.

As for AM and Unstoppable, there are no reliable numbers provided for me to put them into the calculator. I realize these powers make a difference as I have AM up most of the time myself, but I'd prefer not to put in numbers based purely off speculator or from unreliable sources. In the meantime, I've added another power called "Custom Regen" where you can enter your own EPS.

There are "show all" links that will now display all the powers in that section.

select box background is fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Lobster]

Got some new numbers for ya, all were done with NO stamina on test server. All tests were Invisibility (-1.51) + Maneuvers (-.45) + sprint (-.35) + <power in question>). Double check my math if you want, its late.

Tough: 113 seconds, -.245 ep
Weave: 110 seconds, -.27 eps
Plasma Shield: 97 seconds, -.391 eps
Fire Shield: 75 seconds, -.693 eps
Blazing Aura: 68 seconds, -.83 eps

All of these seem ok except Fire Shield - wow that is a high end cost for a shield, with most of them averaging around .38. I'll try and double check this tomorrow.

[Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
Got some new numbers for ya, all were done with NO stamina on test server. All tests were Invisibility (-1.51) + Maneuvers (-.45) + sprint (-.35) + <power in question>). Double check my math if you want, its late.

Tough: 113 seconds, -.245 ep
Weave: 110 seconds, -.27 eps
Plasma Shield: 97 seconds, -.391 eps
Fire Shield: 75 seconds, -.693 eps
Blazing Aura: 68 seconds, -.83 eps

All of these seem ok except Fire Shield - wow that is a high end cost for a shield, with most of them averaging around .38. I'll try and double check this tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, Double checked, my Fire Shield #'s were wrong. I did a few more tests and got #'s between 93s-97s, yielding a # about the same as plasma shield - btw. -.39 & -.43 eps.

Of course, some numbers somewhere in the equation are wrong, because Sprint + Fire + Plasma + Blazing went full->0 in 545s, yielding a -.183 eps.

However, the numbers I've found (1.67-.35 -.39 -.39 -.83) yield a -.29 eps - so something is still fishy. But at least we have nice approximations ;)

[ioars]

Great! Thanks for the numbers. I've added powers that were missing and updated unconfirmed powers. As for powers that have already been listed but you also provided, I've gone and taken an average.

[Lobster]

Yeah there were stars on some of them, which seemed to indicated doubt, so I retested those for you :)

[Constant_Motion]

This poster says your numbers for stamina recovery is incorrect.


Nicer version of url (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=archetypes&Number=1674546& Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =1673729&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=63061&date range=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post1674546)

[Grotus]

[ QUOTE ]
This poster says your numbers for stamina recovery is incorrect.

Nicer version of url (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=archetypes&Number=1674546& Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =1673729&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=63061&date range=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype =&bodyprev=#Post1674546)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not seeing the disagreement part, that Stamina effect table includes the base end recovery in its numbers. Subtracting that out gives a recovery number of 0.42 END/s for unslotted and 1.25 for 6SO slotted.

And when you make links to other places in the forum, don't list out the whole URL in the link, it makes the column expand to the point where the horizontal scroll bar appears and screws up the wrapping on everyone else's posts.

Edit: On reading the entirety of the linked thread, I'm guessing that you were referring to the MrBurke post, which does indeed question the 0.42 END/s number. I might be inspired enough to test it out tonight.

[Constant_Motion]

Yes I was refering to the post made by mrburke, since he was the one claiming that the numbers in the links I posted (in the not so nice url versions) were not correct.

As to the nicer version of the url if I knew how to do that I would. Care to show me how, instead of just telling me not to do it the only way I know how?

[Grotus]

[ QUOTE ]
As to the nicer version of the url if I knew how to do that I would. Care to show me how, instead of just telling me not to do it the only way I know how?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if you are using the Instant UBB code to do your URL's then it goes like this:
<ul type="square"> Get the URL you want to use on your clipboard
Start a reply/quote to a thread
Hit the URL link
In the first dialog, paste your URL, then hit OK
In the second dialog type in a description for the link
[/list]

Alternatively, do whatever you did previously, then when you are previewing your post, remove everything between the url tags and replace it with the link text. For an example of doing this, try hitting the Quote link on both your original post with the not-so-nice URL and mine with the nicer URL and compare the two links.

Also, you can probably still go back to the not-so-nice URL and edit it to remove the excessively long string between the url tags, which will then leave future readers wondering what I was talking about.

So, instead of this:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
http://something.com/lots'o'stuff
</pre><hr />

Use this:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Nice link text (http://something.com/lots'o'stuff)
</pre><hr />

[Constant_Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
This poster says your numbers for stamina recovery is incorrect.

See post by Mr Burke (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=archetypes&amp;Number=1674546&amp; Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main =1673729&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=63061&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype =&amp;bodyprev=#Post1674546)

[/ QUOTE ]

[Constant_Motion]

Cool thanks :)

[makerian]

I have a L13 Ice tanker and a L34 Stone tanker. I will try to respec the Stone tanker this weekend or soon thereafter and do some testing on him. As for the Ice tanker I have CE, Icicles, Frozen Armor, will be getting WI soon. I also have a low level Kinetics Defender, an Invuln Tanker, a FF Controller and an Ice Controller, but without the necessary toggles. I don't have an elec or SR so not much I can help with there. I would like to see some of the numbers for other powers.

My questions concern the methodology. I am a little concerned that we just get these numbers from people using various different toggles. I suppose you are trying to factor them all in, but

1) suppose a power's end cost changes due to an unposted dev change?
2) Is it possible that the same power might work differently on different ATs (e.g. Hot Feet/Blazing Aura, Invuln armor set for Tanker/Scrapper, Chilling Embrace)?
3) Is it possible that some of the buffs have different effectiveness if they are Defender or Controller (e.g. Recovery Aura, Accelerate Metabolism)?

I figure if you have Fly with no enhancements you are already in the negative and it would take about 4.5 minutes to run out of endurance. Based on that, I would suggest for the most accurate results to: Copy your character to the test server after doing a Respec and choose Flight | Fly.

Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate

So the powers that don't seem to have representation at the moment are:
Electricity Blast: Lightning Field
Ice Manipulation: Chilling Embrace
Force Field: Repulsion Field
Kinetics: Repel
Super Reflexes: Evasion
Super Reflexes: Elude
Ice Armor: Frozen Armor
Ice Armor: Wet Ice
Ice Armor: Chilling Embrace
Ice Armor: Wet Ice
Ice Armor: Icicles
Ice Armor: Glacial Armor
Stone Armor: Rock Armor
Stone Armor: Rooted
Stone Armor: Brimstone Armor
Stone Armor: Crystal Armor
Stone Armor: Granite Armor

I will do what I can to find these out. Just found this thread and I am interested in seeing some numbers added.

Finally, I got the Prima guide which is outdated but it does have calculations for EPS I think in there, although they state "it is the cost per pulse of power" whatever that means.

However, I did notice some discrepancies between the numbers listed in the Prima guide and the Toggle Costs Calculator. In particular, most of the powers seem to be double of what is listed in the Prima guide. For example, many of the armors are listed as .2 in Prima guide (left hand number will be from enhancement calculator, right hand number from Prima guide):
Dark Armor
Dark Embrace .39 .2
Murky Cloud .39 .2
Obsidian Shield .39 .2
Cloak of Darkness .39 .2
Cloak of Fear .71 .4

Super Reflexes
Focused Fighting .38 .2
Focused Senses .38 .2

Fiery Aura
Fire Shield .38 .2

Invulnerability
Unyielding Stance .28 .2
Invincibility .28 .2

Stone Armor
Rock Armor .38 .2

What is interesting is that all the armors are listed .38/.39 except Invuln armors?! Is that why so many people choose Invuln or perhaps that/those test(s) is/are flawed? In any case, the numbers are roughly half of what the Prima Guide is showing. But this would mean that the Prima guide counts "power pulses" in half-second increments? Am I missing something?

Well, I hope to have some numbers to provide you soon. And please don't blow off the Prima guide just because it is old. That's an invalid logical argument. I want some verification of methodology or something more academic, than "duh the manual's out of date dud3!!!11!"

[Constant_Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This poster says your numbers for stamina recovery is incorrect.

See post by Mr Burke (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=archetypes&amp;Number=1674546&amp; Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main =1673729&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=63061&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype =&amp;bodyprev=#Post1674546)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Any comment on this? Is Mr_Burke wrong?

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like [CONTROLLER] hot feet is ~-.72 eps. My calculations:

1:31 to drain end running to 0: maneuvers, SS, sprint, stealth &amp; HOT FEET

-100/91 = =-1.099 eps


+2.09 base end regen (base + stamina no enhances)
-.53 SS
-.45 man
-.38 stealth
-.35 sprint
=+.38 eps

-.719 eps HOT FEET
=-1.099 eps

...(snip group fly stuff)...

Did I do the calculations right?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.
0.38 + HotFeet = -1.099
HotFeet = -1.099 - 0.38
HotFeet = -1.479
HotFeet is about -1.48 EPS.

With HotFeet running alone, I gain about 15 END a minute. With HotFeet and Sprint, I LOSE about six per minute (all eyeball figures =p). With HotFeet at -0.72, I shouldn't lose END at all, so 1.4X is much more appropriate.

BTW, it'd be more accurate to have EPS calculated by Vennom (psst...mind sharing that spreadsheet if you aren't updating Toggles?) Reason being that the END total and powers EPS used are rounded to two places; the spreadsheet would be much accurate by working from pure Drain-to-Zero times.

To illustrate, look at the END regen rate you're using (2.09).
Base is 100 per 60 seconds (100/60)
Stamina is +25% of base (25/60)
Total is 125/60, which equals 2.083333...

It's actually closer to 2.08 than 2.09, making END values calculated from 2.09 possibly skewed higher. Other rounding errors could add up to create substantial inaccuracies.

[Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]

No.
0.38 + HotFeet = -1.099
HotFeet = -1.099 - 0.38
HotFeet = -1.479
HotFeet is about -1.48 EPS.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, its sad when I make simple math errors in public ;) Glad someone caught this though. Hot feet is definitely an end [censored]. Probably to compensate for the auto (or +100% like burn) hit?

[Crenson]

Great thread.

So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.

I turned on Sprint, Superspeed, Whirlwind, and Stealth and let them sit for close to 9 minutes 25 seconds (margin of error around 1 second, I tested twice) before I got the out of end noise. If stamina was, as posted, a 0.42 value it would have been closer to 5 minutes, 11 seconds. Assuming the numbers are correct for Whirl, Stealth, superspeed and sprint, this seems clear to me.

In addition, I tried the above power combo with Lightning Field on, and drained to dry in 95 seconds, or 1 minute 35. This gives us a 0.87 EPS value, -irrespective- of if Stamina is mislabeled or if the error lies elsewhere (since I tried the same power combo with and without lightning field I could measure teh difference).

So I am fairly certain that the drain for LF is -0.87 EPS, and I am pretty sure that the value for Stamina is, in fact, +0.56 (as stated elsewhere, and this seems backed up by other people's values).

Was stamina used in any calculations for other costs? This might require retesting on some powers.

I ran the LF test with the same powers 4 times, using End inspires to bounce back up to full end just before starting the timer. I'm not 100% sure this is the best way to measure, but with a full 95 second drain time any human error should be minimal.

I plan to test Accellerate Metabolism and Speed Boost as well, but I'm not sure if I can test AM till I level my lowly 21 earth/rad controller, and the numbersmight be modified by the primary/secondary hit. As for SB, I need someone to boost me and see if I can drain myself dry, anyone (pref defender AND controller, for comparision) want to help out? Drop me a line via PMs.

Seirously, tho, keep up the good work.

PS- I, for one, am surpised that LF, generally considered a horrible end hog, is only slightly over half that of hotfeet, but with the lower damage and not autohit, I guess this makes sense.

Please feel free to point out any math errors.

[Crenson]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate

[/ QUOTE ]

Power Sink and Consume are click one-time recovery powers, and, as such, extremely difficult or impossible to fully graph out. Unslotted, Power Sink draws close to 40 end per even-con foe in melee range, while Consume does around 30 from just outside of melee range. Both are autohit powers.

As I posted, I'm more than willing to attempt to test SB and AM. Rest and Hibernate are supposed to be about the same rate of recovery, but other than saying it's greater than 1.05 EPS (raise your hands, everyone who's shocked?), I've got no ability to get hard data on either.

As for the others, Adrenaline Boost and Recovery Aura recover end on such an unholy level that I think you'll need a non-stamina unslotted bubbler running DP, phase shift, fly, and whirlwind to have a shot at beating out thier timers (90 seconds, I belive?). And with that many powers and that short of a time the margin for error goes up quite a lot.

IN any case, I've spent almost an hour testing, time to go play some.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the others, Adrenaline Boost and Recovery Aura recover end on such an unholy level that I think you'll need a non-stamina unslotted bubbler running DP, phase shift, fly, and whirlwind to have a shot at beating out thier timers (90 seconds, I belive?). And with that many powers and that short of a time the margin for error goes up quite a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite true. I did an estimate of Recovery Aura above, and the effect is huge and the margin of error likewise.

[WingedKagouti_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate

[/ QUOTE ]

Power Sink and Consume are click one-time recovery powers, and, as such, extremely difficult or impossible to fully graph out. Unslotted, Power Sink draws close to 40 end per even-con foe in melee range, while Consume does around 30 from just outside of melee range. Both are autohit powers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about Power Sink since I don't have any chars with it but Consume is definately not an auto-hit power.

[Crenson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about Power Sink since I don't have any chars with it but Consume is definately not an auto-hit power.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake! I was comparing notes with a burn tanker and I formed the impression that they were both autohit- I've not yet taken Consume on any charecter. Power Sink will hit anything in melee range, unless it is dead -at the time of click- (can die durring activation) or phase shifted. Even end drain immune foes give normal end.

Again, sorry, I was mistaken. I really thought consume worked like this as well.

[ZeroG_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread.

So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.

I'll copy some characters to test tonight and measure base end regen, regen with stamina, and regen with stamina and QR.

Vennom probably still has all the times that have been submitted to him and could correct for different regen values. If he's still around...

[Grotus]

[ QUOTE ]
Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.

[/ QUOTE ]

For my part, I did not have stamina when I did my tests.

[makerian]

OK So I did some testing on my L13 Ice Tanker.

Methodology: Copied character over to test server, deleted all endurance recovery enhancements. I would turn on all my toggles which gives me a negative endurance recovery, meaning I lose endurance as I sit around doing nothing. I would run around a tight circle of multiple swarms of baddies and use my fight powers to lower my endurance more quickly. As I approached 0 endurance, I would drop the toggle I wanted to test (so it would be recharged when I went into out of endurance mode). When I hit 0 endurance and my toggles dropped, I made sure all dropped (e.g. occasionally combat jumping would stay up) then I would hit one-2 more attacks, the last being brawl to really get my end as close to 0 as possible. Then I checked the time and click on the toggle I wanted to test. I recorded the time and lingered over the endurance bar to watch it climb as I was monitoring the clock.

Note: If the end bar hit 99 i would note the time and see if it would count down enough before hitting 100 the next time. I would record both numbers and average them. Normally, the endurance bar would jump from between 95-97 to 100 so the averaging wasn't necessary.
Note: I have 5 toggles, Frozen Armor, Icicles, Chilling Embrace, Combat Jumping and Sprint.
Note: I have Hasten but did not use the power during any of the tests
Note: I do not have Stamina
Note: I did multiple tests of each power to get a representative sample (albeit very small)

Results for:
Frozen Armor: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Chilling Embrace: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Icicles: calculated to +0.72 eps, approximately 105 (104) seconds to recharge from 0-100

I don't have Wet Ice, Glacial Armor, or Hibernate to test those results yet.

I feel somewhat confident these numbers are correct. For example, with base recovery at 1.67 and the three toggles (FA, CE, IC) running, I should be at a positve endurance recovery of +0.25 (1.67-.35-.35-.72). If I turn on Sprint, then my endurance recovery should be -.10 (1.67-.35-.35.-.35-.72). I did confirm that with the three toggles on, I hovered around 96-100 and never went below that amount. With Sprint added to FA, CE, and IC, I went into the negative and was slowly decreasing toward 0.

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]

Results for:
Frozen Armor: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Chilling Embrace: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Icicles: calculated to +0.72 eps, approximately 105 (104) seconds to recharge from 0-100


[/ QUOTE ]

Balfour,

I took your observed times and recalculated. I got:
<ul type="square"> Frozen Armor: 20 END per minute (0.3333 EPS) Chilling Embrace: 20 END per minute (0.3333 EPS) Icicles: 43 END per minute (0.7167 EPS) [/list]

I did it by calculating from Endurance per Minute, which is a bit more accurate that EPS. It's also interesting that when looked at Endurance per Minute, you get nice looking values.

Here's the calculations that I used (i'm listing columns from Excel):<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>DATA:
A) Frozen Amor, base regen
B) start END: 0
C) end END: 100
D) Observed time (sec): 75

CALCULATIONS:
E) Change in END: = C - B = +100
F) Observed time (min): = D / 60 = 1.2500
G) Observed Rate of Change in END = E / F = 80.0000
H) Known Regen per min : = BASE regen = 100
I) Known Use per min: = nothing else used = 0
J) Unknown RATE: REGEN - USE - ObservedRate = H - G - I = 100 - 0 - 80 = 20.0000

RESULTS:
K) Rounded RATE (This is END per Min): round(j/0.5, 0) * 0.5 = 20.0
L) END per Sec: = K / 60 = 0.3333

VERIFICATION:
M) Calculated Total Rate: REGEN - USE - EPM = H - I - K = 100 - 0 - 20 = 80
N) Time to recreate END Change: END Change / Calculated rate = 100 END / 80 EPM = 1.25 Min
O) Time in seconds: = N * 60 = 1.25 * 60 = 75
P) Percent difference: (Observed - Calculated) / Calculated = (D - 0)/ D = 0%
</pre><hr />
Using the above strategy, I went through this thread and looked for posts and recalculated based off observed times. I got the following:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>POWER EPM EPS
---------------------------------------
BASE 100 1.6667
SPRINT 21 0.3500
ASSAULT 28 0.4667
CHILLING EMBRACE 20 0.3333
FLIGHT 120 2.0000
FROZEN ARMOR 20 0.3333
HOVER 14 0.2333
ICICLES 43 0.7167
INVISIBILITY 90 1.5000
LIGHTNING FIELD 52.5 0.8750
MANEUVERS 28 0.4667
STEALTH 22.5 0.3750
SUPER SPEED 34 0.5667
TOUGH 14 0.2333</pre><hr /> (copy &amp; paste to notepad to view nicely)


When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.

edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.

[Crenson]

[ QUOTE ]
When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.

edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you might have actually found, as an above poster put it, 'the continium where all the numbers are nice and round'. Of course, the numbers need to be tested from Venmon's massive raw data and see if we get corrilations. Still, very interesting.

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great thread.

So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.

I'll copy some characters to test tonight and measure base end regen, regen with stamina, and regen with stamina and QR.

Vennom probably still has all the times that have been submitted to him and could correct for different regen values. If he's still around...

[/ QUOTE ]

Searching for Vennom, seems like he's been posting on the defender board.

In any case, the recharge difference between stamina at 0.56 and 0.42 is only 3 seconds (45s and 48s), so it's critical to be precise. On top of that, the END bar ticks up at 3 or 4 second intervals, so multiple tries are needed. Ian of Moore explained early in the thread how measurements can be skewed by starting and stopping at different points in the Endurance regen cycle. Furthermore, each toggle you run goes on varying cycles, so that also fuzzes precise measurement. Hopefully, the errors cancel each other out, but there may be times that they stack.

Another way of determining whether Stamina is +25 End/Min or +33.3 End/Min is to try a combination of toggles with a total cost between 125 EPM and 133 EPM. That way, simply seeing if you gain or lose End would be conclusive.

Hmm, can someone test this? Put an even or green SO Endurance Regen into Stamina. Then run Fly and Sprint at the same time -- this is about -141 EPM. If unenhanced Stamina is 33.3 EPM, you'll regen at least 144 EPM and won't lose Endurance. If unenhanced Stamina is 25.0 EPM, you'll regen at most 138.3 EPM and will start losing Endurance.

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.

edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you might have actually found, as an above poster put it, 'the continium where all the numbers are nice and round'. Of course, the numbers need to be tested from Venmon's massive raw data and see if we get corrilations. Still, very interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Ian_of_Moore first put his numbers as EPM in this (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Board=faq&amp;Number=1143402#Post1143402) post. It made much more sense than the EPS numbers, and taken to the nearest 0.5 EPM, more precise than 0.01 EPS.

And yeah, Vennom's collection of raw data would be great.

[Crenson]

[ QUOTE ]
In any case, the recharge difference between stamina at 0.56 and 0.42 is only 3 seconds (45s and 48s), so it's critical to be precise. On top of that, the END bar ticks up at 3 or 4 second intervals, so multiple tries are needed. Ian of Moore explained early in the thread how measurements can be skewed by starting and stopping at different points in the Endurance regen cycle. Furthermore, each toggle you run goes on varying cycles, so that also fuzzes precise measurement. Hopefully, the errors cancel each other out, but there may be times that they stack.

Another way of determining whether Stamina is +25 End/Min or +33.3 End/Min is to try a combination of toggles with a total cost between 125 EPM and 133 EPM. That way, simply seeing if you gain or lose End would be conclusive.

Hmm, can someone test this? Put an even or green SO Endurance Regen into Stamina. Then run Fly and Sprint at the same time -- this is about -141 EPM. If unenhanced Stamina is 33.3 EPM, you'll regen at least 144 EPM and won't lose Endurance. If unenhanced Stamina is 25.0 EPM, you'll regen at most 138.3 EPM and will start losing Endurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except....did we get those numbers for Fly with or without Stamina?

This is going to be a basic issue. If somenoe could respec into fly (which can drain you on it's own, I belive?) without stamina, and see if the number we're using for fly is about right, plus combonations of powers...well, it'd be worth trying, wouldn't it?

The reason I inherently trust my results is not because I tested them, but because the difference was -dramatic-, a little over 4 minutes, just by that difference.

So I would suggest getting Stamina and slotting -only- with even-level SOs, and using phase shift (since this power's end-to-zero is reasonably close to 60 seconds, and this is testable for moderately independant values). If stamina is 0.42 base, even level SOs will not quite beat the drain of Phase shift (this difference is minute, it will take a few minutes at least for it to show up). if it is the larger number, the drain will not happen.

In any case, slotting stamina (carefully) would give considerably better test data because the difference is more dramatic (+1.25 vs 1.67), even if it does make it inherently harder to test for.

[Grotus]

I just did some unslotted testing of Phase Shift vs Stamina
I did three runs starting the clock when I activated phase shift, and stopping it when it deactivated, I got times of 1:47, 1:48, and 1:48.

A while back I did Phase Shift without Stamina and got times of 1:15, 1:16, 1:17.

Using 1:48 and 1:16 seems to give a value for base Stamina of +0.39, which doesn't match either prediction. Phase Shift might have a delay during activation during which it doesn't draw END, so that might be messing with my numbers.

I'll try later with Fly + Sprint and see that that yields.

[makerian]

I tested Fly on a test server character, a L35 toon that chose Fly and no Stamina.

With no slots, my test results indicated that it took about 285 seconds (4:45) to go from 100-0. That calculates to -2.02 eps.

The Toggle Costs Calculator estimates at -2.03 eps. I think those numbers are sufficiently close that I trust the Toggle Costs Calculator (but can you trust me i guess is the next question).

You can verify yourself when you hit respec and copy your character over to the test server. Or copy any character that does not have Stamina.

[ZeroG_NA]

Test was down when I went to logon. So I played my emp defender to 32 instead ;P. Just now I ran base regen and confirmed 100EPM. Tommorrow night I will test Stamina and QR.

As a side note, Adrenaline Boost has a duration of 1:30 and a base recharge of 5:00. =)

[SagittaryGold]

I noticed Telekinesis isn't listed; it's a toggle hold.

[Starfox_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Phase Shift might have a delay during activation during which it doesn't draw END, so that might be messing with my numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phase Shift has a 3-second activation time.

[ioars]

I've updated the calculator with some of the numbers provided above. If there are any numbers that should be changed, let me know. I've also increased the rounding to 4 digits to improve accuracy.

[ZeroG_NA]

I have finished testing Stamina and Quick Recovery.

Unenhanced Stamina recovers endurance in 48 seconds which is 125EPM, 25EPM over base. Converted to EPS it is .41667 which agrees with Vennom's .42EPS.

Unenhanced QR recovers end in 45 seconds which is 133.3EPM, 33.3EPM over base. Converted to EPS it is .55556EPS which also agrees with Vennom's .56EPS.

I also did a quick acid test with a character that has both Stamina and QR which gave the expected +58.3EPM over base.

It would appear Vennom's regen values are correct. =)

The Atlas Medallion

I also have one character with the Atlas Medallion. That character has Stamina. Going into this test I expected one of two likely scenarios. Base regen and Stamina are 100EPM and 25EPM absolute values respectively or base regen and stamina are +100%EPM and +25%EPM of maximum endurance.

Expected time if regen values are absolute is 50.4 seconds since the total end to be recovered is 105 instead of 100. Expected time if regen values are based on max end is 48 seconds, the normal time for unenhanced Stamina. This would translate to an EPM of 131.25, 5% over normal.

Over and over and over endurance went from 0 to 105 in 45 seconds and change!!! Let's start with that 131.25EPM value for percentage based regen and consider the Atlas Medallion is adding +5% to total regeneration rate in addition to the boost gained from having a higher max end. 105% of 131.25 is 137.8125EPM. This would yield an expected recovery time of 45.7 seconds which is extremely close to what I was seeing over and over again.

I don't have a character with the Atlas Medallion and without stamina but I would expect to see a 110.25EPM recovery rate in that case. This makes the Atlas Medallion more powerful than I originally thought (and I already thought it was cool ;)).

[Grotus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll try later with Fly + Sprint and see that that yields.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just one run each, since I have other things to be doing:
Fly + Sprint -&gt; 2:20
Fly + Sprint - Stamina -&gt; 6:08

This calculates to around 0.44 EPS for Stamina, which when you allow for error is a good match to the lower value for Stamina.

[Crenson]

So, seriously, I swear I'm not a brain dead idiot or anything.

My test charecter -has- the atlas medalion, which was throwing my numbers off.

I'm feeling kinda stupid, so, anyone who hasn't made a fairly basic calculation error want to check my math? I'm gonna go sit in the corner. Lightning Field is going to have a slightly higher EPS due to this.

[Crenson]

If I'm still even remotely trusted..

I tested Accellerate Metabolism, controller version (no data on difference between trolllers and defenders), and the EPS came out to about +0.2733, or a touch more.

I used an earth/rad without Stamina, running Sprint, Superspeed, Enervating field, and Radiation infection. The enudrance ran out, on average, between 100 and 101 seconds. I used an end inspire to bump myself back to full end after activating all toggles.

Obviously still needs to be tested with a defender instead of a controller, to see if the primary/secondary effect is still there.

[Crenson]

Something else wonky.....

Using the exact same charecter as above, I turned on whirlwind, sprint, and superspeed, activated Accellerate Metabolism....and gained endurance. Very very slowly, but I was expecting it to tick down at a glacial speed.

Something is wonky. Don't trust the above numbers, there must be some sort of error somewhere. I'll figure it out tonight or tomorrow.

[ioars]

Calculating EPS with The Atlas Medallion

Because the Atlas Medallion modifies the max end, I'm going to assume that all regen values are affected by it as well as any enhancements you put into these.

So, for the Atlas Medallion

EPS_new = EPS_old * (1.05)

I'm going to begin adding the accolade powers to the calculator soon.
Anyone see any issues with this?

EDIT: The calculator has been updated. If you see any weirdness, let me know.

EDIT2: I just realized that the calculation method that I'm using and ZeroG used is different. Going from 0 to 100 end is 60 seconds without any regen power. With the atlas medallion, going from 0 to 105 end should still be 60 seconds. Increasing EPS regen decreases the time between ticks not the amount. What the atlas medallion is doing is increasing your max end value. I'm thinking the actual tick amount increases where as regen powers and enhancements decrease the time per tick. Of course we'll need a few test to verify it.

[ZeroG_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT2: I just realized that the calculation method that I'm using and ZeroG used is different. Going from 0 to 100 end is 60 seconds without any regen power. With the atlas medallion, going from 0 to 105 end should still be 60 seconds. Increasing EPS regen decreases the time between ticks not the amount. What the atlas medallion is doing is increasing your max end value. I'm thinking the actual tick amount increases where as regen powers and enhancements decrease the time per tick. Of course we'll need a few test to verify it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please re-read my post. The time to go from 0 to 105 with the Atlas Medallion was less than the time to go from 0 to 100 without it.

[ioars]

Thanks, I must have misread your post the first time. I've updated the calculator to reflect your numbers.

[shuyun]

I've gone through this thread and gathered some of the reported raw data for Fly. The problem is, they all end up with different rates.

by balfour:
Fly + base regen: -100 End in 285 sec.
=&gt; 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)

by Grotus:
Fly + Sprint + base regen: -100 End in 140 sec.
=&gt; 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
Fly + Sprint + Base + Stamina: -100 End in 386 sec.
=&gt; 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)

Used Sprint 21 EPM (0.3500 EPS), and Stamina 25 EPM (0.4167 EPS).

The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.

[Mr_Fancypants]

[ QUOTE ]

=&gt; 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)
=&gt; 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
=&gt; 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)

The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, let me get this straight: You're comparing these 3 rates, and getting a spread of difference that ammounts to just over 1%? And you think this can't be accounted for by timing errors? :eek:

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

=&gt; 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)
=&gt; 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
=&gt; 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)

The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, let me get this straight: You're comparing these 3 rates, and getting a spread of difference that ammounts to just over 1%? And you think this can't be accounted for by timing errors? :eek:

[/ QUOTE ]

To get Grotus' figures to come up with a matching rate, he would have needed times of 144 and 360. That's being slow by 4 seconds and fast by 8 seconds! For balfour to match up too would have required a time of 290 (slow by 5 seconds). How likely is it that they're both mis-timing by that much?

[Blastinator]

I'm lazy so I have to ask; what would you get if you instead assumed Sprint drains 20 epm? I've done a series of measurements and they all seem to indicate sprint drains closer to 20 epm. Most recently I calculated Fly+Sprint to 140.2 epm.

I prefer to use linear regression of several samples taken after a recovery tick. More samples tends to even out rounding off errors.

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm lazy so I have to ask; what would you get if you instead assumed Sprint drains 20 epm? I've done a series of measurements and they all seem to indicate sprint drains closer to 20 epm. Most recently I calculated Fly+Sprint to 140.2 epm.

I prefer to use linear regression of several samples taken after a recovery tick. More samples tends to even out rounding off errors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that Sprint is lowered by 1 to 20 EPM, then Fly's EPM is raised by 1. This change would only affect Grotus' figures:

Fly + Sprint + base regen: -100 End in 140 sec.
=&gt; 122.857 EPM (2.0476 EPS)
Fly + Sprint + Base + Stamina: -100 End in 386 sec.
=&gt; 121.304 EPM (2.0217 EPS)

BTW, can you post the times for the tests you ran?

[Blastinator]

I had 50 or so samples so it would be rather inconvenient to post them here. Besides, I already deleted them. :)

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
The Atlas Medallion

I also have one character with the Atlas Medallion. That character has Stamina. Going into this test I expected one of two likely scenarios. Base regen and Stamina are 100EPM and 25EPM absolute values respectively or base regen and stamina are +100%EPM and +25%EPM of maximum endurance.

Expected time if regen values are absolute is 50.4 seconds since the total end to be recovered is 105 instead of 100. Expected time if regen values are based on max end is 48 seconds, the normal time for unenhanced Stamina. This would translate to an EPM of 131.25, 5% over normal.

Over and over and over endurance went from 0 to 105 in 45 seconds and change!!! Let's start with that 131.25EPM value for percentage based regen and consider the Atlas Medallion is adding +5% to total regeneration rate in addition to the boost gained from having a higher max end. 105% of 131.25 is 137.8125EPM. This would yield an expected recovery time of 45.7 seconds which is extremely close to what I was seeing over and over again.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you certain it's 45.7 seconds? Because that means your END regen is multiplied by 105% twice for a total of 10.25%!

(100 + 25) * 1.05 * 1.05 = 137.8125

It's much different from adding 5 EPM, then multiplying the entire thing by 105%.

(100 + 25 + 5) * 1.05 = 136.5

This difference would be even more pronounced as natural regen rate increases. With 6-slotted Quick recovery and Stamina...

(100 base + (25 * 3) stamina + (33.3 * 3) Quick) * 1.05 * 1.05
= (275) * 1.05 * 1.05
= 303.1875 EPM

compare to adding then multiply:

(275 + 5 Atlas) * 1.05
= 294 EPM

Makes it oh so very nice =)

[ioars]

Why would you add 5 EPM?

[shuyun]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you add 5 EPM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because all endurance rates we've seen so far are additive, and not multiplicative. I can see making an exception with the Atlas Medal and making it multiply by 105% once due to increasing max END. However, I don't understand why it would be multiplying twice. Using the Add-then-multiply calculation for Base+Stamina+Atlas, the expected 0 to 105 time is 46.15 seconds -- within 1% of 45.7 from the two-multiply calculation.

[ioars]

The Atlas medallion adds 5 more maximum possible end. It doesn't add 5 EPM.

I'm not too sure on the double muliplication myself. But if the raw numbers support it, then that's what it will be.

[ZeroG_NA]

Sorry for the delay in responding; I usually don't read the forums when not at work.

Almost all of my runs with the Atlas Medallion were less than 45.7 seconds but within half a second of 45.7.

[ QUOTE ]
It's much different from adding 5 EPM, then multiplying the entire thing by 105%.

(100 + 25 + 5) * 1.05 = 136.5

[/ QUOTE ]
In the case that end regen (base and stamina) are percentages of max end then base regen goes up to 105 EPM (100% of 105) and Stamina goes up to 26.25 (25% of 105) for a total of 131.25 EPM. This is one of the scenarios I considered likely. In this case time to go from 0 to 105 with the Medallion should be the same as going from 0 to 100 without it. Which is not totally suprising since hit point regen is relative to max hit points, rather than absolute.

This would yield an expected time of 48 seconds for Stamina with the Atlas Medallion, the same time as without the Medallion. I was very surprised to see end go from 0 to 105 just over 45 seconds. I supposed that the Atlas Medallion may increase total recovery rate by 5% in addition to increasing max end. This does compound the effect since recovery rate has already increased because it is based on max end.

It is a supposition. It matches the observed recovery time. There may be another explanation for the excess recovery rate. I could only time with Stamina. I don't have a character with the Medallion and Quick Recovery or one without Stamina.

If endurance recovery (base, Stamina, Quick Recovery) works as percentages of max endurance (100% per minute, 25%/min, 33%/min) and the Atlas Medallion increases total recovery by 5% (which is not in its description) then the end result is 125EPM x 1.05 x 1.05 (because this char has stamina) which is 137.8125 (a total increase of 10.25% over a character with Stamina but no Atlas Medallion).

It's not what I expected. At the time I believe test and live were running the same build. I'll run some more tests on test (since it is definitely running a different build now) and see if I get the same results.

[Leaving work early today, no time to proof read, please forgive any typos]

[ZeroG_NA]

Shortly after I logged on to test the message came across that the server was going down in 5 minutes so I only ran a few runs--getting 45 seconds in Issue3 as well.

[shuyun]

Zero G,

If possible, could you also get the Times and Endurance on the 2nd and 2nd to last regen ticks? I'm interested these to eliminate a few possible sources of error.
<ul type="square"> The final regen tick would bring you over Max END (105 in your case). Base regen is 6.667 END per 4 seconds (any different with Stamina or Atlas?), so the overall change in END could be 106 when assuming it's 100.
The regen tick and timer are unsynchronized. If the first regen tick comes right after your stopwatch is started, then you're getting a lot of END in little or no time. Recorded times might be off by a whole regen cycle. That's up to 4 seconds with base regen! [/list]

I noticed those problems during some tests of Fly + Sprint. Out of curiosity, I timed how long it took for me to regen to full END after Fly alone shut off. I timed 72.2 seconds for Sprint + Base regen to get back to full. Plugging that into some rough calculations...

Overall EPS of (Base &amp; Sprint) = (Change in END) / (time)
= (100 - 0)E / 72.2 s
= 1.385 EPS

Sprint EPS = Base EPS - Overall EPS
= 1.667 EPS - 1.385 EPS
= 0.282 EPS (or 16.90 EPM)

The commonly accepted Sprint EPS is 0.33 to 0.35 EPS (20 to 21 EPM), so what was wrong?

I started timing when Fly shut off. I assumed that END was 0, but that might not have been the case. Fly seems to tick every half second at 1 END per Tick (1 EPT); Sprint also ticks every half second at 0.175 EPT. If I had 0.9 END, Fly would have shut off, but it would have been more than sufficient for Sprint. That's one possible source of error.

Another mistake was that the Regen might have ticked right after I started timing. My recorded time was 72.2 seconds. Counting regen ticks backwards every 4 seconds, my first tick would have been at 0.2 seconds. 6.667 END in 0.2 seconds time!

The last mistake was stopping when I saw my END bar fill to 100. I *think* I had about 96 END before the final tick, roughly extrapolating to an actual ending value of 102 END.

Here's my calculations if I adjust for those errors:

Assume Change in END is about 101.5 (102 - 0.5).

During the 72.2 seconds, I had 19 END ticks.
Base END gain = 19 ticks * 6.667 EPT = 126.667 END

Sprint END loss = Base END - Change in END
= 126.667 - 101.5
= 25.167 END

Sprint EPS = 25.167 END / 72.2 seconds
= 0.349 EPS (20.91 EPM)

This value is much closer to the common Sprint EPS values. I should really do the tests again but with synchronized start times and such. That way I have much less assumptions for the calculations.

[ZeroG_NA]

Shuyun, since I'm measuring recovery and not drain any "overage" would actually mean even greater recovery rate!

In order to insure I was starting from as close to zero as possible I only timed instances where all toggles dropped. If some dropped and some didn't I figured I wasn't at zero and turned the toggles back on.

There was also no doubt about reaching 105 vs 104, 103. You should never be guessing about that. Right-click your end bar and leave the cursor hovering over the bar. This will give you a digital readout of your end. In every run the pattern ended with 98/105 then 105/105. The last tick gained 7 end.

I didn't write out the full pattern but did observe that every tick from 0 to 105 was either 6 or 7. There was never an increase of 8 end.

[shuyun]

Ugh. I was almost done with a reply and accidentally closed my browser. ...darn thing called work getting in the way... :P

Anyway, you see increases of 6 to 7 END per tick. This is like what's observed with Base Regen. It's 6.667 END per Tick (or 20/3 EPT). I'm pretty sure that the amount per tick stays the same. Even a 5% increase would bump the EPT to 21/3, or 7. This is not what you're seeing with Stamina or the Atlas Medallion in place.

So if the EPT is not increasing, then the ticks are coming faster. Base regen seems to be once every 4 seconds. It takes exactly 15 ticks to regen 100 Endurance. If we time how long it takes to go from 0 to 100 END, it should be anywhere from 56 to 60 seconds. Why the spread? It depends on when the first tick occurs. The final tick occurs 56 seconds (14 * 4 sec) after the initial tick, which can occur anywhere from 0 to 4 seconds after we start timing.

Ok, let's figure out the frequency with Stamina. Stamina effectively adds 25% to regen rate. We can calculate frequency with the following equation:

Frequency = (Base Frequency) / (1 + additional_regen)
= (4 sec) / (1 + 0.25)
= 4 sec / 1.25
= 3.2 sec

Stamina's tick rate is once every 3.2 seconds. It's difficult to measure each tick, but we can sort of verify by observing how long it takes to go from 0 to 100. (14 * 3.2) = 44.8; 15 * 3.2 = 48. The expected time is from 44.8 seconds to 48 seconds over a total of 15 ticks.

Now let's try for 6 slotted Stamina. Using Even SO's, additional regen becomes 75%.
Frequency = (Base Frequency) / (1 + Additional_regen)
= (4 sec) / (1 + 0.75)
= 4 sec / 1.75
= 2.286 sec

The frequency of each tick is once per 2.286 seconds. Expected 0 to 100 time is 32 to 34.29 seconds.

Can someone run a few quick tests to confirm the 6 slot times fall between 32 and 34.3 seconds over 15 ticks? That'd help tremendously.


Now for ZeroG's tests with Stamina and the Atlas Medallion. With 105 max END, it would take 16 ticks (106.667 END) to get to full. The times were all less than and within 0.5 second of 45.7, so we have a time range of 45.2 to 45.7 seconds. The possible frequencies are as follows:

Time ... Frequency range
45.2 ... 2.825 to 3.013.(45.2/16 to 45.2/15)
45.7 ... 2.856 to 3.047 (45.7/16 to 45.7/15)

Knowing the frequency range, we can work backwards to overall regen vs base.

Regen = (Base frequency) / (Frequency)

Freq ... Regen
2.825 ... 141.59%
3.047 ... 131.29%

So Base + Stamina + Atlas Medallion has an effective endurance regen rate of 131.3 EPM to 141.6 EPM. This range could be narrowed further if we knew the starting time of the first tick.

[Starfox_NA]

I love this tread, but it is getting bloated. Maybe we should start a new one with a new table and all the data we have?

If you do, please post a link here!

[WatchItGo]

I know this isnt a toggle, but it is part of end drain if you want it perm, something I found myself wanting to know..

For those of you running perm dull pain:
(Assuming: 5 or 6 recharge redux in hasten, 4 redux in dull pain, this puts you just a hair under 2 minutes)
(the following numbers are from warcry, and i would love it if somebody could confirm them)
(scrapper)regen end cost for DP: 21
(scrapper)invul end cost for DP: 15
tanker end cost for DP: 21?!

This means that for regen scrappers and tanks we get the following:
21/120 seconds = 0.175
Scrapper invul:
15/120 seconds = 0.125

This means that to keep up DP (ignoring the hasten costs) it's cheaper then sprint. With the hasten costs (25 / 120 seconds = 0.208) its 0.383 for regen/tank, 0.333 for invul scrappers, around the cost of hover or stealth. Not bad for the large permanant increase to HP.

(Really hope I'm off about the tanker power costs, should be the other way around as it is a more tanker oriented power.. )

[Paradoxe]

I tested with my Ice Tanker.

I pulled these numbers (Averaged through 10 tests):

Chilling Embrace: 0.34 EPS
Wet Ice: 0.34 EPS

I suspect, but have been unable to test (since I'm not high enough to verify) that Glacial Armor would likely be the same.

So for Ice Tankers, FA, CE, WI, and GA all have the same cost.

[ioars]

[ QUOTE ]
I tested with my Ice Tanker.

I pulled these numbers (Averaged through 10 tests):

Chilling Embrace: 0.34 EPS
Wet Ice: 0.34 EPS

I suspect, but have been unable to test (since I'm not high enough to verify) that Glacial Armor would likely be the same.

So for Ice Tankers, FA, CE, WI, and GA all have the same cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have either the atlas medallion or portal jockey?

[Ebon_Wrath]

Sorry, I'm not understanding the Atlas Medallion math. Does this mean that the Atlas Medallion gives you more than 5% bonus endurance recovery? The toggle cost calculator seems to have it bump up about 10%.

I just got the Atlas Medallion today, so I'm wondering what it does.

[ioars]

From ZeroG's calculations, yes it gives about 10%.

[Dazzer]

Maybe this power does not belong in with what you have listed..
But I would really like to see now much a drain.. hasten will
cause..

I'm a lvl 17 Elec/Em blaster.. and only have access to trainning recharge enhancments.

My earlier power pool selections are hoover and fly. I was thinking about selecting hasten at lvl 20,
but heard it has a hugh endur drain. A some point I would to have it 6 slotted,
with recharge, and one endur drain recover..
Currently, it will have in slot 1 endur drain recover, lvl 20++ training.
So, what would the drain be, with just the one endur
drain recover..
The what would it be with one drain recover and one recharge, the two.. etc..
Also what would the recharge times be for each slot I fill.
I will add slots overtime, but my powers are first .
I may even hold off on a complete slot till I can get SO's.


Thanks
Dazzer lvl 17 Elec/En Blaster

[WatchItGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this power does not belong in with what you have listed..
But I would really like to see now much a drain.. hasten will
cause..

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, provided you dont have any +end accolades.. Its the 2 minute uptime and 25 percent of your end as a cost, so 25 / 120 = 0.2083 per second... (This is assuming its six slotted, otherwise it functions as the cost while its up.. ) Hasten is a great ability - even if your not using it 24/7 its a great asset for that rough boss here and there..

[Mr_Fancypants]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this power does not belong in with what you have listed..
But I would really like to see now much a drain.. hasten will
cause..


[/ QUOTE ]

The real end drain you'll see from this power comes from the fact that your powers recycle so much faster. So, while you do incurr a hit once Hasten wears off, it's generally far overshadowed by the extra endurance you're going to burn by using your powers more often during its 2-minute duration.

[ QUOTE ]


I'm a lvl 17 Elec/Em blaster.. and only have access to trainning recharge enhancments.



[/ QUOTE ]

Check your contacts' stores. You should be able to find a contact that sells DO's that are appropriate to you after running a few missions for them.

[TopDoc]

I'm surprised I haven't seen any stats for the Defender Primary powers Radiation: Accelerate Metabolism and Kinetics: Speed Boost. Both of these are supposed to increase END recovery. AM can be made perma like Hasten, and SB can be recast as needed. They aren't toggles, but they're close enough. And it would be very handy to see their stats here and in the Toggle Cost Calculator.

AM lasts 2 minutes and is a level 2 power. It should be REAL easy to find someone to test it if you have a character with enough toggles. SB is level 12, but still pretty common.

[Starfox_NA]

Tested Fly + Unyeilidng (new version) on the test server. Took me 134 seconds to run out of End, which translates to a cost of 0.40 end/sec.

About the same as Temporary Invulnerability. Not that bad.

[ioars]

The url to the toggle cost calculator has changed. Please use the one in my sig below.

[stageIII]

GREAT!!! work on the toggle cost calculator. It has been added to my favorite sites.

[WingedKagouti_NA]

Tested MoG end recovery (I3)

QR (unslotted)
Stamina (unslotted)
MoG (no End Recovery)

Atlas Medallion
Portal Jockey

0 (all toggles used to drain dropped) to Full end in 20 seconds.

Could someone else check the result? I'm getting +2.3068 eps (after bonus from Accolades) or 1.9065 eps w/o Accolades which is better than base end recovery (1.6667 eps w/o Accolades/2.0167 eps with).

[Obitus]

If I assume that the accolades provide a 10% bonus to end recovery, I'm getting a base value of 2.2 EPS (or 132%) for MoG -- using your numbers.

If I use the numbers for the accolades provided earlier in the thread (a double bonus of 20% in this case), then I end up with a base value of 2.033374 EPS (or 122%) for MoG.

Either way, that's really good. It would be wonderful if someone could test the Unstoppable regen times. I've heard that Unstoppable's end recovery buff is much weaker than MoG's, but it'd be nice to see by how much. :)

[QuinnBlackwatch]

What is the EPS bonus for accelerated metabolism?

[Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the EPS bonus for accelerated metabolism?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it is .25 for defender version - either .2 or .25 for controller - I'm not sure if this power is affected by the controller secondary penalty or what.

[QuinnBlackwatch]

thanks

[IAmUn]

Why does the calculator not include Speed Boost?

[Leprechauna]

Howdy all!

I've started the Powers Quantification Project (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2173439&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=#Post2173439) on another guide thread, and I thought the users of this one might be interested in it. It describes a method to get accurate timing information on attack powers, similar to the way we can get endurance information on them here.

Enjoy!

[Dauntlass]

Got a new one here!

Repel: 100 end used in 40s, placing one skul (appropriately) in permanent knockback against a corner. No enhancements whatsoever (nice empty slot).

Should equal 2.5 eps.

Tested with a SL 8 Kinetics/Electric Defender on live.

Edit:

Oops forgot to account for base regen of 10/6 EPS (+1.667 )
That should equal 4.167 EPS unenhanced. Ow.

[Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
Got a new one here!

Repel: 100 end used in 40s, placing one skul (appropriately) in permanent knockback against a corner. No enhancements whatsoever (nice empty slot).

Should equal 2.5 eps.

Tested with a SL 8 Kinetics/Electric Defender on live.

Edit:

Oops forgot to account for base regen of 10/6 EPS (+1.667 )
That should equal 4.167 EPS unenhanced. Ow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are 2 costs for repel - one is an automatic cost every second, and one is the cost it deducts whenever you repel someone. First, you should determine the base cost - by just running repel + some other basic toggle with a known EPS value (fly is a good one) to drain you down to zero.

Then you can start trying to figure out how much end is drained per hit. You will need to do what you just did, but also count how many times repel hit the enemy.

Good start though !

[herobear]

Speed Boost gives a +0.966 eps boost, so 6-slotted for Endurance Recovery you would get +2.898 (just about equal to 6-slotted stamina plus normal endurance recovery combined!!)

This number is taken from:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=faq&amp;Number=2123962&amp;fpart=&amp; PHPSESSID=

[Gemini_II]

Somewhere, I've read that AM boosts things by 24%, with the exception of recharge (30% vs. Hasten's 70% deduction). This would make a lot of sense considering that we're ballparking this at around 20-25%.

This would make AM's contribution to End recovery 0.40 EPS, if perma. Not using any verifiable testing procedure, I've calculated that AM is down for about 5-7 seconds with 4 even level SOs in it and 5 in Hasten....

[BellaStrega]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my calculator based off the numbers above. I'll continually update the page with newer numbers as people find them. If there's any problems you find, let me know. I've tested it in IE and Firefox. Your selections will automatically get saved to a browser cookie so you can come back to the page and they will be there.

Toggle Endurance Cost Calculator (http://www.arscoh.com/phpBB2/calcs/toggleendcosts.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting page not found errors on this. What happened?

[WingedKagouti_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's my calculator based off the numbers above. I'll continually update the page with newer numbers as people find them. If there's any problems you find, let me know. I've tested it in IE and Firefox. Your selections will automatically get saved to a browser cookie so you can come back to the page and they will be there.

Toggle Endurance Cost Calculator (http://www.arscoh.com/phpBB2/calcs/toggleendcosts.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting page not found errors on this. What happened?

[/ QUOTE ]
Replace the "phpBB2" in the link with "coh", that change happened a few months ago.

[Schnibbley]

http://www.arscoh.com/coh/calcs/toggleendcosts.html does not work either.

The problem is that arscoh.com apparently vanished in late April, at least from the DNS servers in my part of the internet.

That was a damn useful calculator :( I don't suppose the domain still resolves for anyone who can pass along the IP address?

[StarGeek]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that arscoh.com apparently vanished in late April, at least from the DNS servers in my part of the internet.


[/ QUOTE ]

The domain appears to be back up, but the Calc is still gone. It was possible to grab the page from Google's cache a few days ago, but that too, is now gone.

But even grabbing the page from the cache wasn't enough, because there was a javascript file that also needed to be downloaded (cookieFunctions.js).

[Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that arscoh.com apparently vanished in late April, at least from the DNS servers in my part of the internet.


[/ QUOTE ]

The domain appears to be back up, but the Calc is still gone. It was possible to grab the page from Google's cache a few days ago, but that too, is now gone.

But even grabbing the page from the cache wasn't enough, because there was a javascript file that also needed to be downloaded (cookieFunctions.js).

[/ QUOTE ]

Noooooooooo........
I hope someone sets up a mirror somewhere, that was the most incredibly useful utility.

[Xia_sH]

please....please!!!

[JRoy777]

The emailed the domain name owner to try and track down the author, turns out he didn't have a backup copy. I don't know if the guy even plays CoH any more, but can't imagine he'd let it disappear if he did. Man that tool rocked. I had offered to host it on my site if he didn't want to bother any more, but alas.

Long live Toggle Costs Calculator!

-Jonathan

[Schnibbley]

The Hero Builder (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html) by Sherk Silver has the a toggle cost calculator (based on the same math/numbers) built-in.

There are a (very few) powers where the end cost has not been corrected in the last update, but you can edit them.

[Kong_Fuu]

Does anybody have a good set of power pool powers that can be used (slotted with 0-6 even level Endo Reductions SOs) that get you as close to 0 as possible? It would be good for level 50s that want to test their builds.

Also if it can be done using only 3 pools, it would be a good way to test other pool powers at the same time.

Basically, I want to know what a good test harness build is.

There are several numbers in the current list that I do not trust (and some that have changed since they were tested), and I'd like to get the most exact numbers possible.

[Nilt_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that arscoh.com apparently vanished in late April, at least from the DNS servers in my part of the internet.


[/ QUOTE ]

The domain appears to be back up, but the Calc is still gone. It was possible to grab the page from Google's cache a few days ago, but that too, is now gone.

But even grabbing the page from the cache wasn't enough, because there was a javascript file that also needed to be downloaded (cookieFunctions.js).

[/ QUOTE ]

Noooooooooo........
I hope someone sets up a mirror somewhere, that was the most incredibly useful utility.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know ... this is ressurecting the long dead post. However, don't rely on Google's cache alone for stuff like this. Use The Wayback Machine (http://www.archive.org).

That being said, here's what you were looking for (http://web.archive.org/web/20050305055545/http://www.arscoh.com/coh/calcs/toggleendcosts.php). Keep in mind the reductions in endurance and such but if anyone wanted to run with it, go there and see what ya can get.