Leadership pool, what's good and what's eh

[_Sinnyil_]

I'm going to approach all of these from the mindset of a controller, which means basically that I'm assuming a 10% buff from assault and tactics (easy number to work with) Its important to point out that scrappers, blasters, and tankers get a 7% and defenders get a 12.5%

Manuevers: With the way defense works, this would take a flat 6.25% off of the opponents ability to hit you and your group. Even minions have a 50% chance to hit you, this would make it 43.75% unenhanced. Fully slotted with SOs of your level, (each with an increase of 20%) this could give a maximum of 13.75%, bringing even minions down to a 36.25% chance to hit anyone in your group. All in all, worth it, especially if you have other powers that give defense.

Assault: A flat 10% damage boost to all attacks. It looks good on the outside, but its really mediocre at best. This 10% cannot be enhanced as of now, and it takes the 10% of your damage to add on *before* your enhancements. That means at level 16, an AR blaster would get 6.58 extra damage from hit sniper shot, and 3.91 extra damage from slug. And that's 8 seconds of action times (roughly). Really not worth the cost of the endurance. In a large group, maybe, but otherwise, no.

Tactics: This ability is like manuevers, giving a 10% bonus for your group to hit across the board. This can be brought up to a 30% bonus (6 SOs at 33.3% a piece)...thus almost completely negating the need for accuracy enhancements in your abilities, except maybe AEs.

Vengence: I've never seen this one in action, but from the description, when an ally falls, you give the group big bonuses to damage accuracy and def. From the viewpoint of the classes that should be taking this pool (controllers, defenders) if you're planning on a teamate falling, you're playing your class very wrong.

There you go

[Ex_Libris]

Leadership pool is very very appreciate in any groups. They are really useful powers.

and i think Vengeance is only applied when YOU fall.

[London]

No its when someone else falls.

You may target a fallen hero with this power.

means you have to be alive and you can't target yourself.

So pretty sure its when someone else falls.

[Kainite]

[ QUOTE ]

and i think Vengeance is only applied when YOU fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Orginally, in BETA, yes. In release, however, it is a targeted power i.e. you need to target someone else's corpse.

[Mr_Wallet]

Wow, I'm sure glad I read this... I was going to get leadership with my provoking tanker, and here it turns out the manual is outdated yet again. -_-

[_Sinnyil_]

Leadership manuevers I think is good for any AT, as the power doesn't change with the more group oriented ATs. It gives a better def. buff than combat jumping, and it does it to the entire group, albeit for more endurance.

My assessment of assault being good in larger groups is based on the end. you spend on it vs. the damage it will provide. It constantly sucks endurance (and I will say right now that I have no idea how toggles exactly do this, by ticks or per second or what) and it just didn't seem that the damage per endurance you would spend would really be worth it, unless the group was very large and damage oriented. A possible solution I see to this would be to either up the %, or lower the % and apply it to damage after the enhancements are applied, or even if its not broken without the % being lowered. Another possible solution is a damage increase enhancement, although some powers would be absurd with this (ie: Aim, Build up and its multiple names, etc.)

[Ex_Libris]

so I take it when you cast a leadership power it also effects yourself? Because from reading the manual I assumed it only effected your teammates.

I'm deffinately interested in getting tactics, but the rest seem kinda useless the way you described it.

[Modern_Magi]

Leadership powers certainly affect yourself.

[Skorj]

Leadership powers each suck 20% of the unbuffed endurance recovery rate. So, having 3 toggles on without stamina would mean you're not doing much else. However, a single END enhancement drops the cost to 15%, two to 12%, and 3 to 10%.

If you want to run all three leadership toggles (as I plan to on my defender), and use 1 END enhancement in the defense and accuracy powers, 3 in the damage power (since you can't enhance its effect) the total coat drops to 40% of your native endurance recovery.

Without stamina this is untenable. However, with stamina 6-slotted you have 175% of native endurance recovery to work with, and 40% is not so bad.

I don't know where the OP gets the idea that a 10% defense buff only reduces even-con mobs chance to hit by 6.25%. From what I've read from Geko's posts (and he's been pretty clear about this), defense buffs are a straight subtraction. A 10% buff drops an even-con mob from from 50% to 40% - you avoid 20% of thier damage.

A controller with 5 Def BUff SOs and one END SO in Maneuvers is contributing a 20% defense buff to the team (25% for a defender) which is a great help - enough to push anyone with a few defenses into the defense cap vs even con mobs.

[Ex_Libris]

Defenders and Controllers don't get a bonus for maneuvers.

[_Sinnyil_]

Sure don't!

[Umber]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I'm sure glad I read this... I was going to get leadership with my provoking tanker, and here it turns out the manual is outdated yet again. -_-

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're rapidly approaching the time where an updated PDF manual should be made available.

[NerdKicker]

Last I heard, this was inaccurate. Care to share your source of information?

Edit: This was in response to the dude who said controllers and defenders didn't get a bonus. I'm pretty sure they do, but would like to hear where he got this information or if it's just another noob spouting crap.

[Ex_Libris]

They get a bonus for assault and tactics, but not for manuveurs. (afaik)

As for the other one, I don't have a clue. And if they did, it wouldn't matter, because it still sucks.

[kalan]

Why don't controllers and defenders get a bonus for maneuvers? Seems unfair to me.

[MisterNick]

Does anyone have an actual source on the lack of a defender/controller bonus for Maneuvers? Or a rationale for Maneuvers' being different in that respect?

[Voodoo_Child]

I remember reading somewhere that Tankers get a bonus to Manuevers. It has something to do with Defense being there key ability.

[Ex_Libris]

[ QUOTE ]
Leadership powers each suck 20% of the unbuffed endurance recovery rate. So, having 3 toggles on without stamina would mean you're not doing much else. However, a single END enhancement drops the cost to 15%, two to 12%, and 3 to 10%.

If you want to run all three leadership toggles (as I plan to on my defender), and use 1 END enhancement in the defense and accuracy powers, 3 in the damage power (since you can't enhance its effect) the total coat drops to 40% of your native endurance recovery.

Without stamina this is untenable. However, with stamina 6-slotted you have 175% of native endurance recovery to work with, and 40% is not so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see problems in your thinking.

First off I am lvl31 Empathy and you didn't say what you are. If you are an Empath don't worry about stamina you won't need it once you get RA fully slotted with Recharges.

If your not here is what i did and understand about Leadership abilities and their endurance side effects.

For each cycle i get 6 endurance points. Each leadership ability takes 2 points per cycle.

To diminish its affects you can only put one SO Endurance Reduction to reduce it from 2 to 1 drain. Thats as far as it goes, you cannont negate it the drain totally.

But if your running Manuevers, Tactics, and Assaut, definately Slot each one with 1 Endurance Reduction (Thats all you need) SO ASAP and if your not a Empathy, Stamina looks very tastey, if you can't find a Empathy regularly.

Just my 2 cents.

[imported_Resonance]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to approach all of these from the mindset of a controller, which means basically that I'm assuming a 10% buff from assault and tactics (easy number to work with) Its important to point out that scrappers, blasters, and tankers get a 7% and defenders get a 12.5%

[/ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to add to this thread that it's been discovered that these aren't the correct numbers. Blasters, Scrappers, and Tankers get 5% base, Defenders get 6.25%, and it's not known what Controllers get. In addition, the streak breaker code reduces the value of Maneuvers, possibly the most valuable of the set. This means that in real play, even a Defender only gets a 5% base defense bonus from Maneuvers, and the other archetypes get less. See this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=1111360) for details, at least until it gets autowiped.

This means that for the endurance cost, none of the Leadership powers are really worth taking.

[AZChuckles]

I run a 28th Kinetic/energy Defender with Manuvers 4 slotted with SOs right now. I definately see a difference in the damage I take if I have manuvers off. So, for those that say defenders don't get a def bonus. *shrugs* Maybe they let their toggles drop. As for the controllers I have no proof but I don't know why it wouldn't work.

[Voodoo_Child]

AZchuckles you're not understanding what they are saying. As a Bonus they mean something the other Archtypes don't get.

It was believed (might still be true) that some AT's get better use out of some pool powers because of their primary power types. (i.e. Defenders primary is buffing, so they get a bonus to pool powers that buff others abilities like Tactics and Assualt. Tankers primary is Defense so they get and give a better use of Manuevers.

Also this was all writen a few months ago, so it maybe outdated.

[Tempress]

Last info confirmed by Cryptic employee is that Maneuvers is 7.8% for Defenders, and 6.25% for everybody else.
See here (http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=16601&ForumID=75868&TabID=15003 9&TopicID=600755) for a summary of all +DEF powers. And here (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Defender&Number=1132750&Fo rum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1 111360&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=83967&datera nge=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post1132750) for a post by WeirdBeard confirming the defender and base maneuvers affect.
The above post does not mention controllers, so it's not clear what their bonus is.

[Cimmerian]

Both of those links are long past I'd say.

Anyone have any more recent information on this power pool?
I'm assuming these are the base values.

Power:......................Controller......Defend er.....Everyone Else
Assault(+dam)...............10%............12.5%.. .........7.5%
Manuevers(+def)...........6.25%...........7.8%.... .......6.25%
Tactics(+acc)...............10%............12.5%.. .........7.5%
Vengeance
(+acc,+dam,+def,+heal)

I'm not sure what the numbers are on Vengeance. Last I heard was
that it was now cast on a fallen ally to work. The old version
would've worked really well with self-rez powers.

EDIT: added +heal to Vengeance.

[ElDee_NA]

Don't know about the numbers, but Vengeance is a really nice buff. It's cast from a teammate's corpse, and it pretty much casts Fortitude and heals everyone in the AOE. The buff lasts a fair while, too.

It's not a power anyone would rely on, by any means. But when a fight goes sour and someone dies - and it WILL happen - Vengeance is there to help everyone else carry on. Especially good for Trials.

[Captain_Freak]

Its amazing how people will say "this sucks" without giving a reason why.....heck an Empath sucks if said emapth doesnt have his heals slotted and just went and slotted super jump.

Manuevers stacks.... 6% fully slotted gives about 12% per person running it (assuming low 1 5 slotting and white enhancments) k, lets assume 10 % per person, more for defenders less for everyone else......10 times 4 (good easy to manage group) equals 40% defense vs everything. ITs a buff, not a debuff so it doesnt get the double shaft. Thats like having two bubble defenders in your group double bubbling everyone and if you have a bubble defender it just makes defense even more insane(vs everything but psi). Now lets go extreme......8man team. yep 80% and all you have to do is stick together, and heal the odd hit or wait for your natural regen to take care of it, because unless your fighting more than +4 to you, it just isnt hitting you that much.

Yep Manuevers sucks its the suckiest power in the game no one should ever take it or slot it.....but for those of us who team i suggest everyone should get it....when you do its the next big nerf

[Saturn_Knight]

It looks like Issue 4 will address the low benefits from Assault...

[ QUOTE ]
Increased the Damage buff of Leadership/Assault and Vengeance by 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Cimmerian]

Something that a lot of pro-Weave scrappers forget is that Manuevers
is pure defense. It's defense .vs everything. ;)

[DMenacer]

Can you rez them right after you use them for Vengeance or do you have to wait untils its effects are over before you can rez them?

[Fulmens]

Leadership is the @#$% heartbreak pool for me.

It would be SO good if EVERYONE took it. But nobody actually wants to take it, slot it, and run it. Everyone wants someone ELSE to do it.

I've been "the guy who took it" and I've been the only person on any team to take it.

Even if THREE people were running slotted Maneuvers, that's a "ghost defender" on the team.

Such potential, wasted because human beings do what human beings will do.

[Cuppa_Lux]

Tactics is THE power to have from this pool. Six slotted, it makes a very significant difference in your accuracy, especially when you like to play with the difficulty slider moved up.

I tried Assault thinking it would help with pet damage but dumped it after a respec for Maneuvers. However, I have not found Manuevers to be worth six slots so have it single slotted.

[Fasttrack]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you rez them right after you use them for Vengeance or do you have to wait untils its effects are over before you can rez them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can rez them right after casting Vengeance on them. I've done it myself as a Rad def.

[Kyoteh]

My FF Defender at 50 has had Leadership (Manuvers/Tactics) for several levels.

Manuvers Six slotted <My bubbles don't add any Psi protection, and Manuvers helps with this a bit, plus adds to MY defense, along with the team, since I cannot bubble myself>

Tactics Six Slotted <My team DEFINATLY notices the improvement to their Accuracy, as do I>

With the changes to Assault on I4 now on test, giving Defenders a bonus of approx 18.5%, and Controllers 15% to damage output for the team, within it's radius CHECK this thread on it. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=2508309& Forum=f17&Words=assault&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main =2495484&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1&n ewerval=2&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post2508309) I may truly think about picking it up at some point.

No comment on Vengance as I have never had it...Nemesis Lt.'s seem to love it, if you notice though, heh. Funny thing with them, is that it works opposite as it does for us, they give it to nearby mobs when THEY die, instead of 'casting' it on a fallen comrade.

It can be a GREAT powerpool especially since it can STACK with others who have it, doubling it's efficiancy, not sure how many times stackable, but at LEAST twice if I am not mistaken.

I have to say, I rarely run into another who has it, but when I do....very nice indeed.

All n all, I will never get rid of it. I like it, some do not.

[_Zed_]

[ QUOTE ]

Tactics Six Slotted <My team DEFINATLY notices the improvement to their Accuracy, as do I>


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that! My team could tell exactly when I got toggle knocked. They'd stop hitting. It's especailly nice since we usually take on reds and purps.

Maneuvers and Assault are good. I prefer Assault due to my slot intensive build.

Vengence. Never had it. But I've read the following suggestions: Get Recall Friend, a lowbee sacrafice to PL, and you have perma-vengence.

[Captain_Freak]

Manuevers 3 slots of even lvl So defense =10% def vs everything
Tactics slot to taste.
I have found that without at least an end redux in them both together use quite a bit of end on my toggle invun tank.....but my regen scrapper with 6 slotted Qr and unslotted Stamina can function fine without the extra slot.......

[AliardK]

Just wanted to say thx. I never considered the leadership poool. I think I might start taking it now

[ElDee_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Vengence. Never had it. But I've read the following suggestions: Get Recall Friend, a lowbee sacrafice to PL, and you have perma-vengence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Vengeance has a fairly hefty timer on it. I'm not convinced that slotting for recharge instead of slotting tohit or defence would be worth it. Slot and use Vengance more as an emergency buff for helping to avoid complete team wipes.


And as for Vengeance working the other way for Nemesis Lieutenants, can you imagine how über they would be if they cast it when one of their group went down? Kill just one minion in a group, and all the survivors would be healed ten blessed with increased damage, defence and accuracy. More than one Lt. in a group would be lethal.

[_Zed_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vengence. Never had it. But I've read the following suggestions: Get Recall Friend, a lowbee sacrafice to PL, and you have perma-vengence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Vengeance has a fairly hefty timer on it. I'm not convinced that slotting for recharge instead of slotting tohit or defence would be worth it. Slot and use Vengance more as an emergency buff for helping to avoid complete team wipes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perma-Vengence was a poor term to use. To the best of my knowledge Vengence lasts as long as the hero is dead...er... defeated. So let the lowbee sacrafice face plant and leave him/her that way. Just teleport the body with you. One instance of debt and a bunch of exp with no more risk. Now if Vengence does have a time limit on it then this stratedgy would be less usefull.

[Godlike_NA]

[ QUOTE ]
Its amazing how people will say "this sucks" without giving a reason why.....heck an Empath sucks if said emapth doesnt have his heals slotted and just went and slotted super jump.

Manuevers stacks.... 6% fully slotted gives about 12% per person running it (assuming low 1 5 slotting and white enhancments) k, lets assume 10 % per person, more for defenders less for everyone else......10 times 4 (good easy to manage group) equals 40% defense vs everything. ITs a buff, not a debuff so it doesnt get the double shaft. Thats like having two bubble defenders in your group double bubbling everyone and if you have a bubble defender it just makes defense even more insane(vs everything but psi). Now lets go extreme......8man team. yep 80% and all you have to do is stick together, and heal the odd hit or wait for your natural regen to take care of it, because unless your fighting more than +4 to you, it just isnt hitting you that much.

Yep Manuevers sucks its the suckiest power in the game no one should ever take it or slot it.....but for those of us who team i suggest everyone should get it....when you do its the next big nerf

[/ QUOTE ]
You think that's impressive? I've had the priviledge of seeing 8 radiation/psionic defenders go to town. All of them had leadership skills. Stacked enervating fields, stacked radiation infections, stacked tactics, stacked assault, stacked accelerate metabolisms. That team was taking on +8s and +9s and tearing them to pieces without breaking a sweat. It's a pity hamidon changes made a certain tactic ineffective, we'd have 40 of that build to level 50 in my SG by now otherwise. It's a sight to behold.

[Vanden]

1. Vengeance lasts like any other click, if the player revives Vengeance stays on. My character has both Vengeance and Resuscitate. When someone dies, I rush in, use Vengeance, and Resuscitate them. It's like saying, "Captain Fallingdown, we shall avenge you!" and then saying, "And you get to help!"

2. Vengeance is un-perma-able. It doesn't accept recharge reductions, and I don't think Hasten is enough. Maybe Hasten with a Kinetics Defender/Controller using Speed Boost on you would be, but not Hasten alone. However, it does accept Hamidon/Hydra/Titan origin enhancements that boost Def/ToHit/Recharge, and those MIGHT reduce the recharge, but I'm not sure.

[Babbster]

Some folks talking about free experience for dead bodies TPed for vengeance...this concept is unworkable if the changes to xp go into effect, allowing you to get xp only for a limited time after faceplant (I could suggest workarounds but it's too exploitive for my tastes). After that time period (I believe one minute was the last number I heard), you don't get jack until you get back up.

Despite that, I think vengeance is actually a worthwhile ability. I know people talk big games about never seeing defeats while teamed up, but I've had relatively few groups like that who weren't going after yellow/white/blue. It's far more common in my experience that post-SO groups tend to go after unyielding/invincible missions facing +2 villains consistently (often using the missions of the highest member of the group, making the villains even higher to everyone else), and every once in a while somebody gets in a bad situation and picks up some debt. Making that eventuality work for the rest of the team seems like a great idea and I do believe this is a power my FF defender is going to take - particularly since there are only three "must-have" powers in her primary. :)

[yobigleggdmama]

Has anyone ever tried casting vengence on pet corpses?

[Paladin]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone ever tried casting vengence on pet corpses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have. It doesn't work except when targetting player characters in your group. I guess that's a good balancing feature, though, since the buff it gives is pretty magnificent.

[Cimmerian]

[ QUOTE ]

With the changes to Assault on I4 now on test, giving Defenders a bonus of approx 18.5%, and Controllers 15% to damage output for the team, within it's radius CHECK this thread on it. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=2508309& Forum=f17&Words=assault&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main =2495484&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1&n ewerval=2&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post2508309) I may truly think about picking it up at some point.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the numbers. :) Link isn't working though. :(

I'm glad to see so many pro-leadership-pool users posting in this
thread. Makes me glad I brought it back up. :)

[Psifire_]

[ QUOTE ]

Perma-Vengence was a poor term to use. To the best of my knowledge Vengence lasts as long as the hero is dead...er... defeated. So let the lowbee sacrafice face plant and leave him/her that way. Just teleport the body with you. One instance of debt and a bunch of exp with no more risk. Now if Vengence does have a time limit on it then this stratedgy would be less usefull.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, yes, the old "Weekend at Bernie's" tactic. :)

IIRC, this tactic will stop working in I4 due to the XP death
timer.

[Psifire_]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad to see so many pro-leadership-pool users posting in this
thread. Makes me glad I brought it back up. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

Leadership is killer for Defenders and Controllers due
to the extra bump they get.

I used to run both Maneuvers and Tactics on my
Empath. When the toggles were down, I could tell
a major difference in the amount of damage coming
in and going out. I had all my attacks slotted for
pure damage since 5 SO to-hit in Tactics is like an
SO acc in each attack. Only reason I respec'd out is
that I wanted the concealment pool for PS and my
build already had SS, TP, and Fitness.

I run Tactics on my fire/kin Controller most of the
time. He's got all of his holds and targetted AoE
buffs 2-slotted; so, he doesn't miss much even
vs. +4's. I may pull out an acc from each power
to slot hold/immob duration or recharge. Still
debating this.

[Cimmerian]

Yeah, currently I'm running Manuevers with my rad/rad to stack
with RI and EF (and eventually with Tactics). She's still limited to
DOs, so it's hard to really gauge it's true effectiveness.

Here's something I'd like to know.
What are the numbers between these two setups?

1: 6-slotted Tactics(tohitbuff) + 6-slotted attacks (5damage, 1accuracy)

2: 1-slotted Assault((endred)post I4) + 6 slotted attacks (2acc,
4damage)

The 1st example uses 5 more slots, so obviously it should be better.
But, how much better is it?

[Ultra_Violence]

The real trick with this pool is to take Assault and put a END reduction in it then 6 slot Tactics with at least 1 END reduction in that too. That way the 2 toggles cost very little in the way of END. Start fights off with both on as END get low turn off Assault.

My Ice/FF Controller was absolutely awesome like this. Running at invincible rarely missed purples. And it is important not to miss those purples with your holds lol.

What I would like to know is has anyone researched Khedians? Are they considered "everyone else"?

[VoodooDaddy]

If multiple team members have Vengeance, can they all execute the power from the same fallen ally? Or is there an absolute limit of one-cast-per-corpse?

[Q_Arkhan]

It stacks from one target to the best of my knowledge.

So does FALLOUT.

[Rad_Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
If multiple team members have Vengeance, can they all execute the power from the same fallen ally? Or is there an absolute limit of one-cast-per-corpse?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it stacks, we ran a MM team with like 4-5 Vengances among us in WB a while back and drove people crazy. A stalker died and we just let him stay dead for the Vengance lol.

[VoodooDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
It stacks from one target

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes it stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping it stacked. Thanks for the confirmation.

Goes back to planning his VG's all-corruptor superteam...

[VoodooDaddy]

:(

So much for multi-casting vengeance now:

[ QUOTE ]
Now Testing in the Training Room - 3/31/06 - 11am CST (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2092861&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#2092861)

COMBINED NOTES

Powers

• Leadership/Vengeance will no longer stack from multiple casters. In other words, only one application of Vengeance buffs can enhance a group at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[geombear]

boy this thread is old, wasn't updated for ED

[Killer_of_Saints]

[ QUOTE ]
:(

So much for multi-casting vengeance now:

[ QUOTE ]
Now Testing in the Training Room - 3/31/06 - 11am CST (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2092861&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#2092861)

COMBINED NOTES

Powers

• Leadership/Vengeance will no longer stack from multiple casters. In other words, only one application of Vengeance buffs can enhance a group at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
but did they change Nemisis LT's vengence?

[Rad_Chick]

Vengance No Longer Stacks!

No more uber group from keeping one dead lol.